Tougher? What exactly is their idea of tougher? When WGA was first released a simple line of javascript was all you needed to defeat it. Also does anyone else think M$ is starting to sound an awful lot like the MPAA and the RIAA?

omg its tough enough your not allowed a new motherboard unless you buy another oem copy all this window update stuff ... man windows is going to get more annoying if it gets tougher

Why include a 30 day trail that can last 120 days?

Actually, I would have thought that sales were hurting because of all the bugs that need to be worked out on the new operating system. That and the fact that Vista requires a rather beefy system to run smoothly, thus many people simply can't upgrade. I am not even going to consider Vista until the first service pack is released. I prefer a stable OS over the newest offering.

An increase of WGA may very well shoot back in Microsoft's face.

This is exactly what will happen if they do this. I wont buy Vista because of all the DRM stuff, poor driver support, and WGA. I would buy a OEM version if it wasnt for the idiotic activation rules. I often re-install windows, often change parts in my pc. I wont buy new licenses just because im trying to keep my pc in some ok condition. If ms wants to boost up its salesnumbers they need to change those stupid licence agreements.

Of course he is ignoring the fact that a lot of people are not buying Vista because it does not offer much more than XP and Windows Genuine Advantage makes their lives a misery.

And this is just b**lshit. Vista DOES offer more than XP and in fact more then a new Windows version offered since the move from 3.11 to 95. Just because clueless Microsoftbashers repeat it all the time doesn't make it true. And WGA hasn't made my live a misery. It should make your life a misery if you are a software pirate and rightfully so. And the driver situation? Best ever for any new Windows. Not every company is as stupid and incapable as Nvidia. But I know, it's tough to stay with the facts if bashing and ranting about things is so much more fun. Even though one hasn't even seen Vista.

Perhaps Steve didn't login to Vista himself yet ?
In the past there were 2 lines of Windows. 95,98,XP for the kids, primary aspect. Colorful, geeky, animated, wizzarded, less stable,..... well anything but ideal if one wants a productive clean looking windows.
And there was NT4, W2K, and finally a server-only-solution named 2K3.
Since then the ones looking for a clean follow up are left out in the rain, but Microsoft got nothing to serve them. So what does Steve tell us ? He really estimated we migrate to kids-level ?
Sorry Steve, rumours say Microsoft will have anothrer try in 2-3 years time. Till then, better rethink the strategy and concentrate on the basics.

I haven't upgraded for two main reasons.
1. I havn't seen the drivers so just about everything worked out yet expecially in gaming.

2. I really dont see the cost benifit in spending 200 or so for the ultimate when my xp pro works just fine

i have activated my vista oem 4 times now with no problem,and you dont need to buy a new copy with a new board.

microsoft have a right to stop people pirating it.some people on here are against pirating games,does that mean its ok to pirate an os?.......................NO

jydieActually, I would have thought that sales were hurting because of all the bugs that need to be worked out on the new operating system. That and the fact that Vista requires a rather beefy system to run smoothly, thus many people simply can't upgrade. I am not even going to consider Vista until the first service pack is released. I prefer a stable OS over the newest offering.

Good points: I would also like to add the fact that folks in Mr. Ballmer's position (which he 'inherited' no less from "KING BILLY" (I respectfully call him that, no sarcasm)) who are today's "Captains of Industry", have sent SO many jobs overseas, that "disposable income" (folks' extra 'fun money') is becoming a thing of the past...

I.E.-> How on earth are people supposed to go & buy that "latest/greatest" anything, everytime it comes out, if they don't have the extra coins to do so? If you're going to create an "OS for the masses", the masses need to have decently paying & steady jobs to purchase it.

GREED people... Great rulers, like those from Great Britain's past, never starved out or too heavily taxed their serfs... why? They needed them for foodstuff production, & soldiery. It IS a symbiosis (in today's modern world, more of a producers/consumers employer-company to employee-buyer one)... & it seems our 'rulers' here have forgotten this.

That, or they are STUPID. I rarely use that term mind you.

ALSO? Quality product sells itself.

Thing is though, I hear a LOT of complaints about it (UAC being a pain, but it can be turned off) & lack of drivers (this we've seen before during the DOS/Win3.x -> 9x transition, & 9x -> NT, & NT-> 2000 mostly - we'll live! 7,000 new API calls in VISTA, that IS a lot... I truly expect lag... but then, I truly expect folks to issue product, when IT IS READY & not before: Doesn't work like that in this field @ a developer level, trust me. You're often told to issue w/ "known issues", & patch later to make deadlines to pay back venture capitalists/investors on-time!)

VISTA was NOT 'written purely from scratch', it was built off the foundations of Windows Server 2003, which in turn was grown from the code in Windows XP, which came from Windows 2000, which came from NT. Each of those improved pretty largely upon the forebear, making it GAIN ability.

This time? They've removed abilities!!!

E.G.-> I haven't tried VISTA, & from what I DO read, it is a real "mixed bag"... the "DRM" thing, that is GREED imo @ least. The cutting out of OpenGL? Another GREED thing (trying to make DirectX 'king of the gaming mountain' for a display API)...

(They took a GREAT thing, in Windows Server 2003, & made it less imo, in VISTA, because of those 2 things.)

Is "AERO GLASS" pretty? Sure... but, it doesn't make up for crippling/removing abilities in this OS, lessening it.

Is the better security (underneath the skin, like Address Space Randomization) a good thing?? It is... still doesn't make up for PULLING ABILITIES Vista's predecessor had though, imo @ least.

APK

P.S.=> Also, from their point of view? This is what you get, when you have folks creating disassembler programs (some folks in this field are actually "glorified" for their abilities using tools like SoftIce, WinDbg, & others) & then you get MANY OTHERS, learning how to use them - end result?

You get PIRACY folks... apk

Balmer is obviously a retard. Im not aware of any pirated copies of Vista, but then again, I havent went looking for any. He just can swallow his pride and state the obvious, instability and lack of support.

WarEagleAUBalmer is obviously a retard. Im not aware of any pirated copies of Vista, but then again, I havent went looking for any. He just can swallow his pride and state the obvious, instability and lack of support.

Folks' @ those levels, know 1 thing though: Folks "yell & scream" only for so long, then, the issue is forgotten... or, rather, goes by the wayside due to more current issues taking precedence, etc.

I don't think Steve Balmer is retarded. Far from it. I do however think that "he is NO 'King Billy'" & not by a longshot. I would rather have seen someone like Jim Alchin take over @ MS personally. Like King Billy (almost, Bill G. is still around @ MS, & probably always will be in some capacity), he left recently.

I think what made Bill Gates great in this field, was that he was actually INTERESTED in it, being a 'nerd @ his roots' early on... Mr. Ballmer lacks this trait imo. Mr. Gates WANTED to go down in history imo buiding "that better mousetrap" & yes, to make money. Probably equal amounts of both.

Mr. Ballmer tends to gravitate imo @ least, towards making monies, ONLY. Yes, business IS in business, to make money... it's a given. BUT, how do you make money, with troubled product? Folks begin to look elsewhere is what happens... look @ the U.S. automobile trade for an example.

Competition works BOTH ways.

Plus, again, people today are hurting imo... jobs, GOOD PAYING STEADY JOBS that is, are not as prevalent in the USA @ least, like they used to be, per my statement above in my last post. They're not going to buy, because they can't like they used to.

Bring back the jobs that today's "Captains of Industry" sent overseas, you'll get more buyers again... business has 'bit the hand that feeds them' imo, in the doing of it.

APK

I think the main thing hurting sells is most consumers buy a PC with the OS installed and have no clue how to get updated drivers and can't really understand what the hardware requirements mean. Most people I know couldn't tell you what vid card they have or even how much ram, all they know is it's a dell and burns DVDs. Think if your grandmother but a $400 HP last year she's not going to upgrade the OS for $200.
Most of us how know a little about computers have seen the benches and heard about the bugs so are going to wait till theres a reason beyond aeroglass. The security features have already been defeated and the other features need better hardware to really be useful. It looks like another Win 2000 with a OS coming out right after it that will really last.

I don't see any reason to buy Vista because XP (not to mention 2k and 2k3) is still good. Also, isn't MS planning on releasing SP3 for XP in 2008?

Frick & unsmart bring up another point: Market saturation.

To beat that? You've got to have an UNBELIEVABLY great new product... to make folks say:

"Hey - my Windows 2000 & XP (even Server 2003) are good stuff... but that VISTA? BLOWS THEM AWAY ON ALL LEVELS! I just GOTTA HAVE IT!"

I haven't felt like that about it, not since I heard what I did about OpenGL & DRM... bad move.

The drivers issue? Seen it before... worse really. During the DOS/Win3.x -> Windows9x transition, sometimes you couldn't get "apps for a particular purpose" even, sometimes drivers too, but not as much as later. You had to wait. During the 9x -> NT transition, you had that PLUS what we're seeing & complaining about now - lack of drivers support in hardwares.

We lived.

:)

* They've done VISTA wrong imo, on DRM & pulling OpenGL... & some of the security features have been broken too, another point these folks brought up.

APK

P.S.=> Microsoft'll "win" though, just on NEW PC purchases alone... or, will they? I think the PC market saturated itself 2002-2006 personally w/ decent enough OS & drivers hardware support, for folks to hold off... I spent a great deal in that timeframe & have a great setup that does ALL I NEED IT TO. Vista's just NOT looking good enough for me to shell out more coins is all, @ least, not @ this point in time yet... apk

i dont think it fair to just charge people $200-400 bucks and they dont know what there buying i dont go to the store to buy a game if i didnt download a demo first and i dont pay 150 dollars from shoes if i didnt try them on so why spend my money on windows with out tring it
(cause of there success in the past ) that why i am stole a copy and it in my opinion is its not that much better then xp besides my xp is tweaked and runnig fast and smooth. Vista gots problem, not everywere, but there r some thing i dont wont to trade off for vista just yet

but i will own a legal copy of vista in the future when a new os cums outit better to just wight for most of the population to have it so i have learened bought xp64 and there were alot of probs but it ok now

xp is gr8,the problem is,whwn dx10 games start coming you will NEED vista to run them.dx10 is NOT coming to xp.

yeah that why when i built this rig i thought i be fine for vista but delays of vista i strating to think this will be a paper weight lol just like my other custom bulit rig siting in the basement but hey memorys right

Windows Vista can be downloaded RIGHT NOW for free. If Microsoft wants to retain some sales potential, they have to beef up security even more. Or maybe they will realize that they have already done all that they can and just give up on the software market.

In any case, why does Microsoft need more money, and why are they charging so much for Vista anyway? Sales are probably low because Vista is USELESS when u got XP.

Hmmm... WGA? A new version? Well based off the rule of thumb that for every 2 months Micro$haft spends on developing their WGA system about 3 hours of cracking time is necessary for a patch - I don't see any problem with the "new" WGA :rolleyes:

In the end:
skilled programmers-->:nutkick: <--Micro$haft

Death StarHmmm... WGA? A new version? Well based off the rule of thumb that for every 2 months Micro$haft spends on developing their WGA system about 3 hours of cracking time is necessary for a patch - I don't see any problem with the "new" WGA :rolleyes:

In the end:
skilled programmers-->:nutkick: <--Micro$haft

The "infamous Death Star", pleased to FINALLY meet you by the by... read your guide, its decent. Put in some things you may wish to examine into it, but, that's up to you.

:)

STILL - In defense of Microsoft, or programmers anywhere? I have 1 thing to say:

It's EASY to destroy, but quite another, to create...

APK

To be honest Vista is working fine for my parents so far, and the few things I have messed around with it. I tweaked it a little, I turned off UAC.....I do similiar things like that everytime I install XP on a computer.

It does need a stronger computer to run it, and I happen to think that is a good thing. By SP1 I really think it will be worthwhile, and I don't even think SP1 will be held back too long.

MS was in much better hands when Bill Gates was running it to be honest as well. I don't think Vista went as smoothly as it would have gone had Gates been the real boss.

Been using Vista 32bit Business edition for about 3 weeks now. I must say it is the most stable OS MS has yet released. Everything in my system worked from the go. I had to update drivers for one hardware item, that's it. It runs better than XP ever did. When xp first came out driver support was far worse than for Vista.

All this crap about Vista being a poor os is just that, crap. Yes it does do some things different, and it babysits a little too much, but this is due mainly to the average consumer being totally ignorant. Most of the babysitting crap can be turned off, frivolous services can be disabled, and Aero is actually quite nice, and uses little resources.

The media is the main reason Vista has not sold as well as it should have. All the poor press, saying, "XP does what I need, why change?, and Vista has all this crap added to it."

I call shens on the press. Vista IS a better os than XP by far. Time will bear this out...


Ply

plywood99Been using Vista 32bit Business edition for about 3 weeks now. I must say it is the most stable OS MS has yet released. Everything in my system worked from the go. I had to update drivers for one hardware item, that's it.

I believe that, in your case - & really, in anybody's case w/ a machine that passes muster, on say, "WindowsVistaUpgradeAdvisor.msi" usage.

plywood99It runs better than XP ever did.

Could be, depends on what you do... that's not the case though, performance-wise, from what folks here have been seeing largely. It probably does the job, but faster? Some things yes, it wails on... I've seen that much in professional reviews on various sites, etc. that are pretty respected.

Mostly multimedia related tasks oddly enough, DRM notwithstanding.

It's not faster in OpenGL based games though - again, I am yelling about this part, because my fav. game maker uses this (IDSoftware). There was NO GOOD REASON to pull it, other than GREED (to make DirectX the kingpin of PC Gaming).

plywood99When xp first came out driver support was far worse than for Vista.

Hmmm... I used to use Windows 2000 drivers on XP, & they worked fine. The entire "Windows Driver Model" made this possible, & it works.

It was worse during the NT -> 2000 transition imo.

plywood99All this crap about Vista being a poor os is just that, crap. Yes it does do some things different, and it babysits a little too much, but this is due mainly to the average consumer being totally ignorant.

It does some things, BETTER, imo "beneath the surface"... security-wise that is, in other things, it does not.

plywood99Most of the babysitting crap can be turned off, frivolous services can be disabled, and Aero is actually quite nice, and uses little resources.

Personally, I love the appearance of AERO GLASS, & some of its special FX it can do... but, that niceness is, imo @ least, offset by the DRM & lack of native OpenGL... to each his own.

plywood99The media is the main reason Vista has not sold as well as it should have. All the poor press, saying, "XP does what I need, why change?, and Vista has all this crap added to it."

Maybe the press is trying to get Ms to be more "flexible" on certain issues, ala DRM & OpenGL games support?

plywood99I call shens on the press. Vista IS a better os than XP by far. Time will bear this out...

That's a "good cover", time will bear this out... it usually does!

However, imo, ONLY after MS gets enough negative feedback/press... & yes, lack of buyers.

(DRM & OpenGL being 2 I am holding off on VISTA for - there was NO REASON for MS to 'cripple' this otherwise superior OS vs. say, their model I use now in Windows Server 2003 in those regards, none (other than greed, imo)).

Driver support though? I agree, it will come... that's inevitable, & just 'catch up ball' for folks like NVidia, & Creative that are being 'hounded' about it.

APK

P.S.=> I do also think the PC market is saturated, & that XP/Windows Server 2003 are FINE OS period... plus, imo, the WORLD economic situation is NOT GOOD... folks don't have QUITE the 'extra cash' they used to, & to get folks to spend on "the latest/greatest" nowadays (in times like these have been & are still, witness Hershey prepping of firing 1,000's of workers a few days back)?

You had best have ONE HELL of a better OS on ALL LEVELS, vs. XP &/or Server 2003 fully patched & tuned + tweaked... & imo, they don't. OpenGL & DRM are my 2 pet peeves here & holding me back! apk

I highly respect what Alec has to say on Vista, and realistically its true as well.

Still though from mine own personal view, time and not that much time at that I believe, will make Vista better then XP. I think it's only serious flaws are the DRM and OpenGL, and those will be fixed, otherwise of course Vista will fail miserably. But from someone who just uses computers for nothing special, like my parents, it has been working flawlessly, and other then some OpenGL games, all my games have worked on their computers, with EQUAL performance to XP Pro, and thats with crapass drivers.

Which is why I believe just a little bit of time will make it a better OS then XP. Though if they make a server version of it, like Windows 2003 Server is better then XP Home/Pro, it will probably be true with XP....is my guess I am no where near as knowledgable as so many other people here.