JackCarverYeah, I deleted this one as you are right, but it's the asian way anyway. Eating things uncooked is their thing...

It's also in Africa, eating those Fly-Dogs and monkeys uncooked, don't know how they named in english, brought us Ebola and HIV...

Really? You know this from experience?
I have lived in Taiwan for the past 13+ years and apart from sushi and sashimi, which is mainly seafood based, I haven't seen anyone eating any raw food in Taiwan. I've also done a fair bit of travelling and the same goes for Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Singapore and Thailand. It's really mainly Japan that eats raw food and to some degree China.
Don't generalise things you clearly have no experience of, this is how stupidity spreads.

TheLostSwedeHow do you know?
Have you read any of the stories of what's actually going on in China?
The PRC government is darking a lot of things.
The crematoriums are running 24/7, they're even burning some people alive, a lot of corpses are labelled with unknown cause of death just to keep the numbers down.
Let's wait and see what happens in Korea and Italy, if the deaths are low enough there, then maybe it's not too bad, bur right now, it's way too early to say what it is or isn't.
However, I agree that there's too much paranoia, but this is largely thanks to the WHO who hasn't been truthful about what's going on as well, as the PRC has some hold on the leader of the WHO.
A lot of people are also catching it quickly again after having been declared free of the virus.

And how exactly do you know this?

I'm just playing skeptic, keep in mind. If you have a means I am all ears.

R-T-BAnd how exactly do you know this?

I'm just playing skeptic, keep in mind. If you have a means I am all ears.

You didn't see either of the two links I posted a few comments further down? There are quite a few inside reports from Wuhan if you look around.
I'm a skeptic too, especially with regards to anything that's from the PRC government.
Just look at how quickly it spreads in Korea and Italy, it's gone much quicker there than expected, yet somehow China claims to have prevented further spread of the virus. If that was true, why is it in so many other countries now?
www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/game-developers-conference-gets-postponed-due-to-covid-19-concerns.264341/post-4217799

NaterAs far as the US response - Trump has been damned if he does, damned if he doesn't from the get-go.

That's true maybe, but picking Mike Pence who literally does not believe in Science to lead the response and then calling the outbreak a "democratic conspiracy" was about as bad as he could do.

My father is in the hospital in Seattle for emergency Jaw Surgery right now. I really do worry.

TheLostSwedeYou didn't see either of the two links I posted a few comments further down? There are quite a few inside reports from Wuhan if you look around.
I'm a skeptic too, especially with regards to anything that's from the PRC government.
www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/game-developers-conference-gets-postponed-due-to-covid-19-concerns.264341/post-4217799

Just saw them. Not sure they qualify as proof, but disturbing nontheless.

R-T-BJust saw them. Not sure they qualify as proof, but disturbing nontheless.

It's hard to get "proof" of anything out of China, but it paints a picture and it's not a pretty one.
There have even been people in Wuhan calling for the people who lives there to rise up against the PRC government, which suggests things must be a lot worse than we know.
There are also people that have been forcefully locked into their homes by the PRC government and they were just told to trust the government...

TheLostSwedeIt's hard to get "proof" of anything out of China, but it paints a picture and it's not a pretty one.
There have even been people in Wuhan calling for the people who lives there to rise up against the PRC government, which suggests things must be a lot worse than we know.
There are also people that have been forcefully locked into their homes by the PRC government and they were just told to trust the government...

I know. I'm with you mostly just not passing it off as fact without hard proof. It's the reporter in me.

TheLostSwedeIt's hard to get "proof" of anything out of China, but it paints a picture and it's not a pretty one.

We also had and have several illnesses of covid 19 in Germany, as far as I know nobody died so far. But one is in critical conditions. I read one medic said, that it is deadlier than the flu, maybe a bigger concern than the spanish flu.

JackCarverWe also had and have several illnesses of covid 19 in Germany, as far as I know nobody died so far. But one is in critical conditions. I read one medic said, that it is deadlier than the flu, maybe a bigger concern than the spanish flu.

Well Finnish health care authoritative said normal influenza kills more Finns this year than COVID-19 ever will...

Spanish Flu killed many healthy young adults and was thus very different from Corona virus(well in that era health care was way different too). But yeah SARS and MERS had death rate much higher than Spanish flu and thus COVID-19 has not shown it's full potential. Maybe it just better health care, or it is just not as deadly as those other Corona viruses.

But why are they isolating people from others when the indication is Corona? Don‘t know this has been done ever in case of a flu. So perhaps they don‘t tell the whole truth or they aren‘t sure of the real danger so far. The Spanish flu had three waves, the first one wasn‘t that problematic, few died, the second and third killed the most, so let‘s hope that’s not similar with Corona...

JackCarverBut why are they isolating people from others when the indication is Corona? Don‘t know this has been done ever in case of a flu. So perhaps they don‘t tell the whole truth or they aren‘t sure of the real danger so far. The Spanish flu had three waves, the first one wasn‘t that problematic, few died, the second and third killed the most, so let‘s hope that’s not similar with Corona...

This could be part of the reason.
www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3876197

With regards to the US companies, I had a brain fart, it's not libel, it's liability law of course. :oops:

JackCarverBut why are they isolating people from others when the indication is Corona? Don‘t know this has been done ever in case of a flu. So perhaps they don‘t tell the whole truth or they aren‘t sure of the real danger so far. The Spanish flu had three waves, the first one wasn‘t that problematic, few died, the second and third killed the most, so let‘s hope that’s not similar with Corona...

They are giving corona the SARS treatment. It's spreading through air very easily and their are no drugs and vaccines for it.

JackCarverBut why are they isolating people from others when the indication is Corona? Don‘t know this has been done ever in case of a flu.

I would guess highly contagious?

FlankerThey are giving corona the SARS treatment. It's spreading through air very easily and their are no drugs and vaccines for it.

Yep.

EasoOr because... it is a nasty virus?

Yeah it just FLOORS me that some just can't see that! :shadedshu: :shadedshu:

TheLostSwedeIt's hard to get "proof" of anything out of China, but it paints a picture and it's not a pretty one.
There have even been people in Wuhan calling for the people who lives there to rise up against the PRC government, which suggests things must be a lot worse than we know.
There are also people that have been forcefully locked into their homes by the PRC government and they were just told to trust the government...

Well, with all the countries I've lived in so far, all governments eventually make you think they are full of BS, probably because they all are.
You seem to get a lot of your news from the Taiwanese media, which isn't that trustworthy either. Some stuff they reported are completely wrong, there was a headline about how Shenzhen was locked up like Wuhan and it was just the border to Hong Kong that was closed off.
Some of the stuff you read are probably true, I would be disturbed too if they are.

I have been in China throughout this outbreak. While it's depressing and frustrating, it's not like how everything is on the verge of collapse like some media outlets suggest everyday.

TheLostSwedeHow do you know?
Have you read any of the stories of what's actually going on in China?
The PRC government is darking a lot of things.
The crematoriums are running 24/7, they're even burning some people alive, a lot of corpses are labelled with unknown cause of death just to keep the numbers down.
Let's wait and see what happens in Korea and Italy, if the deaths are low enough there, then maybe it's not too bad, bur right now, it's way too early to say what it is or isn't.
However, I agree that there's too much paranoia, but this is largely thanks to the WHO who hasn't been truthful about what's going on as well, as the PRC has some hold on the leader of the WHO.
A lot of people are also catching it quickly again after having been declared free of the virus.

Seems ..to be happening the worst in politically unstable countries EG: Iran , China, Italy :wtf:

I didnt know Chinese were being burned alive o_O

r.h.pI didnt know Chinese were being burned alive o_O

... according to that YouTube video. It could be a horrible, atrocious, and absolutely appalling accident.
There is a chance the Western media will make it sound like a witch hunt is underway in China.

FlankerWell, with all the countries I've lived in so far, all governments eventually make you think they are full of BS, probably because they all are.
You seem to get a lot of your news from the Taiwanese media, which isn't that trustworthy either. Some stuff they reported are completely wrong, there was a headline about how Shenzhen was locked up like Wuhan and it was just the border to Hong Kong that was closed off.
Some of the stuff you read are probably true, I would be disturbed too if they are.

I have been in China throughout this outbreak. While it's depressing and frustrating, it's not like how everything is on the verge of collapse like some media outlets suggest everyday.

I get the news from the Taiwanese media because I live there. Yes, there are some crap news outlets there too, but they also do get a quicker insight into things than most other nations, as there's no real language barrier. Also, if you're actually in China, do you have any more reliable information?

I never said everything is on the verge of collapse, I don't believe that, if anything that's being perpetrated by a lot of US media. Just look at the panic buying in California now, due to a few cases there.
However, I don't believe the PRC government is honest when it comes to reporting what's going on either, as they always try to maintain an image of everything is fine. Just look at how they handled the African Swine Flu. I many million pigs have the incinerated? Pork prices are skyrocketing and they're even considering importing pork from the US. Hearing all those news, you know that it was a lot worse than what the government said.

Obviously no government wants to look bad, but the PRC government is on a different level.

I'm curious how they calculate the death rate as well, shouldn't it be deaths vs. recovered patients? If so, the death rate in Italy is around 50% right now...

A small chart a friend in Sweden made.



A few more links to things that apparently are going on.
www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3876197
www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3871594
www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3880691
www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3883982

TheLostSwedeI get the news from the Taiwanese media because I live there. Yes, there are some crap news outlets there too, but they also do get a quicker insight into things than most other nations, as there's no real language barrier.

I feel there are two extremes of subjectiveness though. If you followed politics in Taiwan you know what I mean.

TheLostSwedeAlso, if you're actually in China, do you have any more reliable information?

Not many people under the age of 40 get their news from state owned channels. That's where you get those cringy propaganda scripts. Information from independent news writers and Weibo (Chinese twitter basically) from hospitals or locals are quicker and probably more reliable.

TheLostSwedeI never said everything is on the verge of collapse, I don't believe that, if anything that's being perpetrated by a lot of US media. Just look at the panic buying in California now, due to a few cases there.

Oh I misunderstood, my bad.

TheLostSwedeHowever, I don't believe the PRC government is honest when it comes to reporting what's going on either, as they always try to maintain an image of everything is fine. Just look at how they handled the African Swine Flu. I many million pigs have the incinerated? Pork prices are skyrocketing and they're even considering importing pork from the US. Hearing all those news, you know that it was a lot worse than what the government said.

Well in China I didn't feel fine about anything LOL. People wanted the heads of officials of Wuhan and perhaps Hubei province in general. They tried to cover it up, if they acted quicker it would be a lot more contained (I was seeing titles "unknown lung disease" in early December, see how many days they sat on their asses). Dozens of them got sacked by Beijing and more to come. Many are feeling the attitudes of those officials are much more destructive than the virus.
I'm not sure what the government should have done for the swine flue though. By the time people figured out what's going on, the piglets are dead already. We had warnings of supply shortages in advance. I don't remember where they imported port from in the end but prices are much more reasonable now. Similar things happen in Taiwan as well, especially with chicken but they rare get any public attention. You can tell from the fluctuation of egg prices.

TheLostSwedeObviously no government wants to look bad, but the PRC government is on a different level.

That's why I get funny looks when I turn on state owned channels before I learned what sort of contents I would get

TheLostSwedeI'm curious how they calculate the death rate as well, shouldn't it be deaths vs. recovered patients? If so, the death rate in Italy is around 50% right now...

Current Deaths / Current Confirmed cases.
I do believe the real number should be higher, given the dormant period of the virus.

TheLostSwedeA few more links to things that apparently are going on.
www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3876197

I read that in local news in China as well, waiting for academic findings

TheLostSwedewww.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3871594

This is grasping at straws here. It doesn't disapprove the real numbers could be higher but I think this is just a display bug. Like how a leaked GPU benchmark showing 2Mb of GDDR or something.

TheLostSwedewww.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3880691

Epoch Times and Fox news? Oh joy. These are the people telling me my organs can be harvested in my sleeping bed in China.

TheLostSwedewww.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3883982

The first two categories were merged on the 12th of Feb. But I mean if we are already discarding the figures provided by Chinese authorities, it probably doesn't matter anyway.

I hope I don't come across as aggresive or anything, just trying to add to the discussion and hopefully being constructive.

FlankerI feel there are two extremes of subjectiveness though. If you followed politics in Taiwan you know what I mean.


Not many people under the age of 40 get their news from state owned channels. That's where you get those cringy propaganda scripts. Information from independent news writers and Weibo (Chinese twitter basically) from hospitals or locals are quicker and probably more reliable.


Oh I misunderstood, my bad.


Well in China I didn't feel fine about anything LOL. People wanted the heads of officials of Wuhan and perhaps Hubei province in general. They tried to cover it up, if they acted quicker it would be a lot more contained (I was seeing titles "unknown lung disease" in early December, see how many days they sat on their asses). Dozens of them got sacked by Beijing and more to come. Many are feeling the attitudes of those officials are much more destructive than the virus.
I'm not sure what the government should have done for the swine flue though. By the time people figured out what's going on, the piglets are dead already. We had warnings of supply shortages in advance. I don't remember where they imported port from in the end but prices are much more reasonable now. Similar things happen in Taiwan as well, especially with chicken but they rare get any public attention. You can tell from the fluctuation of egg prices.


That's why I get funny looks when I turn on state owned channels before I learned what sort of contents I would get


Current Deaths / Current Confirmed cases.
I do believe the real number should be higher, given the dormant period of the virus.


I read that in local news in China as well, waiting for academic findings

This is grasping at straws here. It doesn't disapprove the real numbers could be higher but I think this is just a display bug. Like how a leaked GPU benchmark showing 2Mb of GDDR or something.

Epoch Times and Fox news? Oh joy. These are the people telling me my organs can be harvested in my sleeping bed in China.

The first two categories were merged on the 12th of Feb. But I mean if we are already discarding the figures provided by Chinese authorities, it probably doesn't matter anyway.

I hope I don't come across as aggresive or anything, just trying to add to the discussion and hopefully being constructive.

Taiwan politics mainly seems to have involved throwing as much manure around as possible. It seems to be slowly changing these days, with more parties entering the fray. They try to stick to facts instead, which seems to slowly change how the older parties are acting. On the other hand, I see more and more of the mud slinging in western politics these days.

Oh, Taiwan has bird flu all the time, but it is reported in the local media, it's just not a panic thing, as they have a good idea how to prevent the spread. Not really noticed a huge variance in egg prices in Taiwan, although we normally buy "premium" eggs in Taiwan, which might not be affected as much.

But confirmed cases shouldn't really be the factor that is used for counting deaths, no? As many confirmed cases could end up in the death toll, no? It should be recovered / dead imho. I guess it's more important to have good looking statistics though...

The news articles were just some of the information that has come out of China. Not saying it's proving or disproving anything, just that there's a lot of muddled up information and it's hard to trust the PRC government when there are so many conflicting reports from a lot of different "sources". It's also hard to prove what is or isn't true, as I said before.

You're not being aggressive, we're just looking at something bad that's going on and trying to figure out how concerned one ought to be about it. It's clear it spreads in ways that haven't been quite figured out yet and that's the scary part to me. It seems like some people catches it instantly and some don't even seem to have been close to anyone that knowingly has it. Imho, the WHO has done a terrible job as well, as they said it's not a big deal and have refused to call it a pandemic, despite most of the world now having cases. So when is it a pandemic? We also don't have accurate figures with regards to how deadly it is and that's most likely going to take at least a few more weeks to see how things play out in Korea and Italy, as I would trust the numbers out of there more than from China and Iran. Germany and France seems to be next... :(

I take you're no longer in China?

TheLostSwedeTaiwan politics mainly seems to have involved throwing as much manure around as possible. It seems to be slowly changing these days, with more parties entering the fray. They try to stick to facts instead, which seems to slowly change how the older parties are acting. On the other hand, I see more and more of the mud slinging in western politics these days.

Oh, Taiwan has bird flu all the time, but it is reported in the local media, it's just not a panic thing, as they have a good idea how to prevent the spread. Not really noticed a huge variance in egg prices in Taiwan, although we normally buy "premium" eggs in Taiwan, which might not be affected as much.

But confirmed cases shouldn't really be the factor that is used for counting deaths, no? As many confirmed cases could end up in the death toll, no? It should be recovered / dead imho. I guess it's more important to have good looking statistics though...

The news articles were just some of the information that has come out of China. Not saying it's proving or disproving anything, just that there's a lot of muddled up information and it's hard to trust the PRC government when there are so many conflicting reports from a lot of different "sources". It's also hard to prove what is or isn't true, as I said before.

You're not being aggressive, we're just looking at something bad that's going on and trying to figure out how concerned one ought to be about it. It's clear it spreads in ways that haven't been quite figured out yet and that's the scary part to me. It seems like some people catches it instantly and some don't even seem to have been close to anyone that knowingly has it. Imho, the WHO has done a terrible job as well, as they said it's not a big deal and have refused to call it a pandemic, despite most of the world now having cases. So when is it a pandemic? We also don't have accurate figures with regards to how deadly it is and that's most likely going to take at least a few more weeks to see how things play out in Korea and Italy, as I would trust the numbers out of there more than from China and Iran. Germany and France seems to be next... :(

I take you're no longer in China?

Is Taiwan politics becoming more fact based? That would be pleasantly surprising. It's been several years since I bothered to pay attention.

You're right about confirmed cases could end up in the dead. I think they just want to calculate how likely is it to die when someone catches it, and it will only be valid when we have the outcome of every case.

My sister does research in biostatistics in UK, she told me (although she told me not to quote her on this but I'm doing it anyway) the effect of the coronavirus is similar to type B flu, assuming the same preventative measures are taken, face masks, washing hands and all. Scary thing about the coronavirus is that, in China, they are like hidden time bombs, someone can catch it, show absolutely no symptoms, spreads the mofo around, and suddenly, time's up, collapse with messed up lunges in CT images.

Korea is already blowing up, there is a church that disallow followers to wear masks during gatherings is brutal. Rumors saying Japan is apparently tempering with the numbers so the Olympics can go ahead. Holy **** things are ugly.

I haven't left China throughout all this. In fact I returned to working in the office last week LOL. All my colleagues who had any contact with confirmed patients or have been to Hubei are quarantined for at least 14 days and must had no signs to fever to even leave their homes. Sucks having to cook our owm meals because all restaurants are shut down:ohwell:

FlankerIs Taiwan politics becoming more fact based? That would be pleasantly surprising. It's been several years since I bothered to pay attention.

You're right about confirmed cases could end up in the dead. I think they just want to calculate how likely is it to die when someone catches it, and it will only be valid when we have the outcome of every case.

My sister does research in biostatistics in UK, she told me (although she told me not to quote her on this but I'm doing it anyway) the effect of the coronavirus is similar to type B flu, assuming the same preventative measures are taken, face masks, washing hands and all. Scary thing about the coronavirus is that, in China, they are like hidden time bombs, someone can catch it, show absolutely no symptoms, spreads the mofo around, and suddenly, time's up, collapse with messed up lunges in CT images.

Korea is already blowing up, there is a church that disallow followers to wear masks during gatherings is brutal. Rumors saying Japan is apparently tempering with the numbers so the Olympics can go ahead. Holy **** things are ugly.

I haven't left China throughout all this. In fact I returned to working in the office last week LOL. All my colleagues who had any contact with confirmed patients or have been to Hubei are quarantined for at least 14 days and must had no signs to fever to even leave their homes. Sucks having to cook our owm meals because all restaurants are shut down:ohwell:

The NPP has helped a lot with regards to keeping things more in line, both in terms of facts and in terms of rooting out corruption. They might still be small, but have proven to be an important addition in Taiwanese politics. Sadly they've had some internal issues over the past year and unless they can resolve those, they might not be around for another election. There are also several other new parties that are winning local seats and overturning the status quo in a lot of cities that have side with the blue or green side only before. It's actually really quite refreshing.

Yeah, the fact that some people have had it for up to two weeks without showing signs of having it is the really scary part. Some reports says that people can go as long as up to 30 days without showing any symptoms. This makes it so much harder to predict how it can/will spread.

Yeah, not sure what happened in Korea, that's really quite insane. Korea is apparently screening thousands, whereas Japan are screen hundreds per day... That's also an interesting way to fiddle numbers...
Not sure what happened in Italy either and people have then spread it on all over Europe from there. At least the rest of Europe is on high alert now, but it's a bit too late imho.

Urgh, sorry to hear that, I hope you manage to stay healthy. If kitchens are anything like in Taiwan, yeah, it sucks to cook your own food. Then again, at least you know the chef didn't sneeze in your food :p

A german virologist stated that about 60-70% in Germany needs to get infected to stop the spreading of the disease. He justified that every infected person infects 3 others. So first week 1, second week 3, third 9 and so on. To stop this you need to get below 1 new patient every week and to reach that 2 out of 3 people needs to be immune. That means 66% of immune people either because they were infected or there is a new serum to get immune. But there are also news that you can get it twice, so to get the disease once doesn‘t mean you are definitely immune if the reports are true.

TheLostSwedeThe NPP has helped a lot with regards to keeping things more in line, both in terms of facts and in terms of rooting out corruption. They might still be small, but have proven to be an important addition in Taiwanese politics. Sadly they've had some internal issues over the past year and unless they can resolve those, they might not be around for another election. There are also several other new parties that are winning local seats and overturning the status quo in a lot of cities that have side with the blue or green side only before. It's actually really quite refreshing.

Yeah, the fact that some people have had it for up to two weeks without showing signs of having it is the really scary part. Some reports says that people can go as long as up to 30 days without showing any symptoms. This makes it so much harder to predict how it can/will spread.

Yeah, not sure what happened in Korea, that's really quite insane. Korea is apparently screening thousands, whereas Japan are screen hundreds per day... That's also an interesting way to fiddle numbers...
Not sure what happened in Italy either and people have then spread it on all over Europe from there. At least the rest of Europe is on high alert now, but it's a bit too late imho.

Urgh, sorry to hear that, I hope you manage to stay healthy. If kitchens are anything like in Taiwan, yeah, it sucks to cook your own food. Then again, at least you know the chef didn't sneeze in your food :p

Refreshing indeed.

We can only wait and see unfortunately, western countries and the likes of Korea and Japan are much more hesitant with measures like putting whole cities under quarantine.

About the kitchen, yeah it's cramped, but it's more about me being lazy haha

The lost swede vs flanker :roll:hehe

JackCarverA german virologist stated that about 60-70% in Germany needs to get infected to stop the spreading of the disease. He justified that every infected person infects 3 others. So first week 1, second week 3, third 9 and so on. To stop this you need to get below 1 new patient every week and to reach that 2 out of 3 people needs to be immune. That means 66% of immune people either because they were infected or there is a new serum to get immune. But there are also news that you can get it twice, so to get the disease once doesn‘t mean you are definitely immune if the reports are true.

How in the blue hell do you get sick from the same virus twice? Either this is a particularly nasty virus, or the fucker is evolving faster than the common cold virus (rhinovirus, etc changes all the time, which is why you get sick more than once).