lexluthermiesterWhy?

No, I use an actual HIFI stereo system for sound output. However, I do have a nice set of headphones and excellent hearing. There is no such thing a "noiseless" listening environment. Such a concept is a myth. What little EMFi that might be picked up(and not filtered out) by circuitry of a sound card would also be picked up by an external DAC, onboard or anything else within 1 meter of a PC and is so insignificant as to not be worthy of even a moments consideration.

The whole debate of sound cards VS DACs is a more or less rubbish argument as the science of EMFi clearly defines that all electronics are affected equally by EMF and therefore filtering circuitry must be included to account for such. Quality design equals quality output. Rubbish design equals rubbish output. It is exactly that simple.

When I got a good pair of headphones and inserted it into my onboard audio out, I could hear the mechanical HDD working in the added background noise.
YMMV, of course, but the problem can be that bad.

bugWhen I got a good pair of headphones and inserted it into my onboard audio out, I could hear the mechanical HDD working in the added background noise.
YMMV, of course, but the problem can be that bad.

I could trace sounds to mouse movement and cpu/gpu ramp ups, hdd seeks not noticed though.

Not going to prelong the debate though.

R-T-BI could trace sounds to mouse movement and cpu/gpu ramp ups, hdd seeks not noticed though.

Not going to prelong the debate though.

Well, like I said above, you can get lucky and get away with no interference. It's not like interference covers a wide spectrum or sound cards are made like antennas. But sometimes, you can get "lucky".

djisasWell, I had a X-fi fatal1ty champion, then moved to integrated and back to a X-fi fatal1ty pro pcie...
Probably the last good 7.1 card...

I still have a X-Fi Fatal1ty Pro in a seldom used rig (built it for my wife). My only compliant with it is Smart Recorder doesn't work with it. Decent sound card, got it cheap off Ebay years ago. The Asus Xonar D2X is better in every aspect though. Different cards for different needs.

bugYMMV, of course, but the problem can be that bad.

For onboard, yes. A sound card? No.

lexluthermiesterFor onboard, yes. A sound card? No.

Yes. I believe last time I saw it was with a ASUS Xonar thingamajig.

That was when I gave up on soundcards, but admitedly there are better/worse ones around, like all things.

R-T-BYes. I believe last time I saw it was with a ASUS Xonar thingamajig.

That was when I gave up on soundcards, but admitedly there are better/worse ones around, like all things.

Older/cheaper XONAR are Realtek-rubbish DAC, basically the same as integrated audio. Realtek makes a new-rubbish each year, promising the world, all for 1g...

Integrated sound (especially shielded) made noticeable advancement compared to what it was 10-15 years ago, but is still worse than (decent) audio cards - I've tested few years ago (while I still had PCI slot on MB, thanks to all MB producers for removing those!) integrated Realtek-something against PCI Soundblaster and Audigy 2 on decent headphones and home HiFi. I could make a difference between a system with sound card and integrated audio, but not between two models of Creative sound cards. As a blind control, my wife made a very distinctive difference between integrated and sound cards - I've also used some "tricks" for her, like increasing/decreasing bass on HiFi system, her exact comment in all the integrated on blind trials was "sounds like rubbish". She was unable to make a difference between two sound cards, too.

It's important to mention that both sound cards were bought for >100g, and have good chips and components for home use. This is not the case for some 10-30g SoundBlaster 5.1 cards, also Xonar and so on - those I've heard but haven't tested...

My audio system is pretty balanced, at least according to me - ~20g / m cables, ~700g amp+speakers, decent headphones... Audio source for test ranged from low bitrate mp3 (youtube), high bitrate (Spotify), lossless FLAC.

Sound card from this price range, again in my opinion, is made to be paired with good amp/speakers or quality headphones. Having it with the low cost active speakers doesn't make sense.

Audiophiles (with enough money) and professionals often go through great lengths in providing the best possible sound quality, but it's another price range entirely...

Mouth of SauronOlder/cheaper XONAR are Realtek-rubbish

It wasn't realtek. It was something, I think c-media.

Mouth of SauronAudiophiles (with enough money) and professionals often go through great lengths in providing the best possible sound quality, but it's another price range entirely...

Using what audiophiles do or do not do as any kind of yardstick is a good way to end up spending a lot of money for little to no demonstrable benefit.

R-T-BYes. I believe last time I saw it was with a ASUS Xonar thingamajig.

I've never seen that on Xonar cards. Old ISA and Ensonic PCI cards would get a bit of EMFi once in a while but never consistently and changing slots almost always solved the problem. With onboard sound the only thing you can do is disable it and use a sound card.

lexluthermiesterRubbish. That has been true for decades. Old SB cards don't suffer from noise problems and neither will this one. Really? Why are YOU of all people trying to spread FUD? Not taking this personally, I'm just surprised that you haven't taken a few moments to think that over...


Onboards have only been ok recently as board makers have isolated the audio circuitry from the rest of the board components. Still doesn't do much for the quality though.

Mouth of SauronOlder/cheaper XONAR are Realtek-rubbish DAC, basically the same as integrated audio. Realtek makes a new-rubbish each year, promising the world, all for 1g...

Integrated sound (especially shielded) made noticeable advancement compared to what it was 10-15 years ago, but is still worse than (decent) audio cards - I've tested few years ago (while I still had PCI slot on MB, thanks to all MB producers for removing those!) integrated Realtek-something against PCI Soundblaster and Audigy 2 on decent headphones and home HiFi. I could make a difference between a system with sound card and integrated audio, but not between two models of Creative sound cards. As a blind control, my wife made a very distinctive difference between integrated and sound cards - I've also used some "tricks" for her, like increasing/decreasing bass on HiFi system, her exact comment in all the integrated on blind trials was "sounds like rubbish". She was unable to make a difference between two sound cards, too.

It's important to mention that both sound cards were bought for >100g, and have good chips and components for home use. This is not the case for some 10-30g SoundBlaster 5.1 cards, also Xonar and so on - those I've heard but haven't tested...

My audio system is pretty balanced, at least according to me - ~20g / m cables, ~700g amp+speakers, decent headphones... Audio source for test ranged from low bitrate mp3 (youtube), high bitrate (Spotify), lossless FLAC.

Sound card from this price range, again in my opinion, is made to be paired with good amp/speakers or quality headphones. Having it with the low cost active speakers doesn't make sense.

Audiophiles (with enough money) and professionals often go through great lengths in providing the best possible sound quality, but it's another price range entirely...

I like to think of myself as an audiophile on a budget :D...
I do the best within a budget to improve my experience...
Someday I might go the dac route, but something mid range and maybe some better headphones, though, I love mine and wouldn't swap them for any beat's headphone.
I currently use the Sony MDR-1A, they went for 200ish new and bought for 80ish in pristine quality, perhaps an open case from amazon.
The AKG is an inferior headphone, but it sells for just 50ish and just bought because i wanted to have that particular model.
I would love to try the AKG 701 and some other too...

lexluthermiesterI've never seen that on Xonar cards. Old ISA and Ensonic PCI cards would get a bit of EMFi once in a while but never consistently and changing slots almost always solved the problem. With onboard sound the only thing you can do is disable it and use a sound card.

When I first started at the radio station we had M-Audio 1010's and there were always noise issues with them. I ended up moving them to the bottom PCI slot and making shielded covers for them. That made a difference but then I got my hands on a Xonar D2 (the PCI version before the PCIe D2X) and it put the 1010's to shame in every aspect. When I finally got the green light to build new production PC's in house management nixed using the D2X because of costs and went with the DX. The DX isn't shielded like the D2X but was still quieter with far better SNR ratio than the 1010's. Then we got two new very expensive Harris digital boards for the two main broadcast studios and needed to get audio cards with AES/EBU digital inputs and outputs. We went with Audio Science commercial broadcast cards that cost around $800 each. While they were bulletproof for 24/7 broadcast use their audio quality didn't come close to the D2X. When I left all of the 1010's were sitting in an open box on the floor of the D&O room of the engineering department. The DX cards went into the newsroom production PC's and the sole D2X left with me because I paid for it myself.

djisasI like to think of myself as an audiophile on a budget :D...
I do the best within a budget to improve my experience...

Yeah, me too... My setup was a mixture of stuff for entry-level hi-fi, but I built it exactly how I wanted and I'm quite happy with the choices I've made. I use it for music, primarily - my collection converted to mp3 256/320 or lately FLAC. That's why I had to go with sound card as a source - too many disks, cd swapping is boring though having them holds some pleasure itself :D

80-watt HamsterUsing what audiophiles do or do not do as any kind of yardstick is a good way to end up spending a lot of money for little to no demonstrable benefit.

I don't understand your reply. My post was pretty clear what I have personally tested, and where I noticed difference in quality and where not.

Listening music was my main reason for purchasing my stuff (which I don't consider very expensive), but people who only watch youtube videos don't need a sound card - especially in 100g+ range. That was my point.

R-T-BIt wasn't realtek. It was something, I think c-media.

Some Xonars used Realtek, don't know if they all do. CMedia has a range of product, and a range of prices - they were mostly known in audio card world for producing very low budget stuff (like 10-20g) and performing accordingly. But they do have more serious products (costing much more), while Realtek is just rock bottom...

Mouth of SauronAudiophiles (with enough money) and professionals often go through great lengths in providing the best possible sound quality, but it's another price range entirely...

80-watt HamsterUsing what audiophiles do or do not do as any kind of yardstick is a good way to end up spending a lot of money for little to no demonstrable benefit.

Mouth of SauronI don't understand your reply. My post was pretty clear what I have personally tested, and where I noticed difference in quality and where not.

That it was. I'll admit that my comment didn't exactly provide much context. It wasn't even necessarily directed at you specifically, but anyone that might be trying to chase down better sound and is at risk of falling down the audiophile rabbit hole.

[edit: clarity]

I'll fully admit to be dead honest fair dirty power in my home could be a factor. We aren't famous for stable electric here, above ground wires and all.

80-watt HamsterThat it was. I'll admit that my comment didn't exactly provide much context. It wasn't even necessarily directed at you specifically, but anyone that might be trying to chase down better sound and is at risk of falling down the audiophile rabbit hole.

[edit: clarity]

Spoiler: Long, rambly, not exactly relevant answer, I apologize in advance to whomever reads it:

Being an audiophile, from the outside, strongly resembles being a sommelier. Folks spend a ton of time and/or money getting REALLY into sound/wine, and then you put a bunch through a controlled double blind test, and as a group they can't identify the high-end stuff from the modest. Factors like SNR, interference, amplification and frequency range reproduction are absolutely genuine concerns. And by all means, a person should do what they can to find a setup that works for them. But once past a few hundred USD (for a headphone-oriented setup, loudspeaker-based hi-fi will obv. require more investment), the differences are likely to be almost entirely in the head of the listener. The DAC, from what I can discover, is a solved problem, which is why so many recommend USB DACs over sound cards. On the music side, mastering and compression are at least as important as any other factor. Audiophiles, the ones who will drop $6000 on a headphone amp [citation needed] anyway, are so far beyond the cost-benefit Rubicon that the connotation of the term has become distorted, and it's gotten difficult for me to take seriously a conversation in which the term "audiophile" appears.

I would also like to add a remark about people simply mimicking what pros do, without fully understanding the context:
1. Ridiculously low SNR is a must during sound processing because it can get amplified, but it doesn't mean you need the same low SNR for listening.
2. It's useless to spend thousands on audio equipment if you have busses driving by your window. Soundproofing your room becomes important. Fast.
3. Professional equipment actually makes money, pros don't typically spend all their savings on equipment.

All this audiophile talk makes me wish we had a thread dedicated to audio recommendations within various budget tiers.

ChomiqAll this audiophile talk makes me wish we had a thread dedicated to audio recommendations within various budget tiers.

Yes, I think it may be useful.

Mouth of SauronYes, I think it may be useful.

Spoiler: But it's highly subjective, and this real-life story will tell (and might be skipped, but it's kinda funny)

Well, my father-in-law owns a small recording studio, does that stuff for 40+ years - has lamp amplifiers, studio monitors, various stuff which is/was valuable or which can't be bought anymore. Thing is, HE touches my setup, eg. suggests me to try different speakers, installs them and says it's much better - I instantly don't like it. Difference is noticeable. But! It's not only me - my wife (his daughter, spent years at the studio as a kid) doesn't like it either, and his former partner in studio - well, guess...

So, it's not just me being a weirdo...

But! Over the years, my father-in-law recorded and produced whole lot of stuff, local bands for example - and most of them are quite happy, I know some of them very well personally... People who know something, or at least how they want to sound.

However, blood-sound-feud with his ex-partner is the funniest one - on few separate occasions, each of them comes to the already assembled and configured system (by the other partner, but unknown to them at the time) - like cinema or various sound-stages and:
- "this is all wrong, who made this, some idiot wasn't it, now I have to change everything... yadayadayada"
- "your ex-partner did"
- "figures"

Yes, sound is that subjective.
For images, we have the CIE diagrams to serve as a reference and colorimeters to measure how close an equipment comes to that reference. There's no equivalent for sound that I know of. At least not in the consumer space.
And then there's preference. And education. But let's not go there.

Mouth of SauronYes, I think it may be useful.

Spoiler: But it's highly subjective, and this real-life story will tell (and might be skipped, but it's kinda funny)

Well, my father-in-law owns a small recording studio, does that stuff for 40+ years - has lamp amplifiers, studio monitors, various stuff which is/was valuable or which can't be bought anymore. Thing is, HE touches my setup, eg. suggests me to try different speakers, installs them and says it's much better - I instantly don't like it. Difference is noticeable. But! It's not only me - my wife (his daughter, spent years at the studio as a kid) doesn't like it either, and his former partner in studio - well, guess...

So, it's not just me being a weirdo...

But! Over the years, my father-in-law recorded and produced whole lot of stuff, local bands for example - and most of them are quite happy, I know some of them very well personally... People who know something, or at least how they want to sound.

However, blood-sound-feud with his ex-partner is the funniest one - on few separate occasions, each of them comes to the already assembled and configured system (by the other partner, but unknown to them at the time) - like cinema or various sound-stages and:
- "this is all wrong, who made this, some idiot wasn't it, now I have to change everything... yadayadayada"
- "your ex-partner did"
- "figures"

If everyone's ears where the same, all of them would buy Sennheiser's 800 and that's the end of the story, but because of how subjective it is, there are 1000's of options for every ear and wallet...
I for one I'm a Sony fanboy, but that's because I haven't had the chance to audition anything better than what I own, I previously owned a set of Sony's MDR-V900HD and loved them until the cable started to fail some 15 years later, to much abuse...

lexluthermiesterNo thank you. I prefer an internal sound card.

I am a old man with a major service related hearing problem and always needing to wear headphones during my PC pleasures. My 13-year old Dell XPS 730x has a "Creative X-FI Titanium" but when at my friends newer PC with a Asus Z490 Hero VII mobo, I cannot discern either a difference or an appreciable sound advantage. (discrete vs internal) And hearing for me is everything. If I should be lucky enough to ever afford an all new system purchase it may be better for me to stick with an internal sound card given my predicaments? Thoughts?

Tom SundayI am a old man with a major service related hearing problem and always needing to wear headphones during my PC pleasures. My 13-year old Dell XPS 730x has a "Creative X-FI Titanium" but when at my friends newer PC with a Asus Z490 Hero VII mobo, I cannot discern either a difference or an appreciable sound advantage. (discrete vs internal) And hearing for me is everything. If I should be lucky enough to ever afford an all new system purchase it may be better for me to stick with an internal sound card given my predicaments? Thoughts?

It's impossible to say. When it comes to video and audio my advice is always: trust your eyes/ears only.
In your case, I would say get the discrete sound card, test whether you can spot differences from the onboard audio and if not, return it. Try to use digital out, if possible, it made a huge difference for me.
(Me, I just got me a Dragonfly Red and called it a date. Stereo out is enough for me (when it comes to computers) and it took care of using various devices while on the move. Not cheap, for sure, but you can get the Black, it's just as good only it won't drive high-impedance cans.)

bugIt's impossible to say. When it comes to video and audio my advice is always: trust your eyes/ears only.

Just wanted to say many thanks to your kind response.

Tom SundayIf I should be lucky enough to ever afford an all new system purchase it may be better for me to stick with an internal sound card given my predicaments? Thoughts?

Not sure how I missed this response(wasn't ignoring you, just never saw it or I would have commented) or if you still need it answered, but yes, a dedicated sound card would be of benefit, IMHO..