Monday, March 7th 2022

AMD Isolates Windows 11 and Windows 10 Performance Stuttering Issues to fTPM

Mar 7th, 2022 17:03 Discuss (81 Comments)

Does it take ages for the taskbar calendar and notification center to load on your Windows 11 PC powered by an AMD Ryzen processor? Notice random stutters in performance? Chances are, the lag is caused not due to user-interface bugs by Microsoft, but hardware. AMD discovered that certain Ryzen-powered Windows 11 and Windows 10 PCs experience intermittent performance stutters when running with fTPM (firmware TPM) enabled.

The performance stutter is caused due to background memory transactions between Windows and the fTPM, to authenticate an action, as the fTPM serves the function of a hardware root of trust. Since the fTPM is part of the UEFI firmware that resides on the SPI flash EEPROM chip, the performance stutter is caused due to fTPM-related memory transactions with this chip.

AMD issued an immediate workaround, as well as announced that it's working on a fix. As a workaround, you can switch from fTPM to a discrete TPM module (or dTPM), which uses the TPM 2.0 header on your motherboard. dTPMs such as the one pictured above, have been selling on Amazon for anywhere between $50-100. Be absolutely sure to disable Bitlocker before switching between fTPM and dTPM, if you have it enabled. Or you could just wait for AMD's fix, which will be distributed by motherboard or OEM vendors, as UEFI firmware updates.

AMD expects firmware updates with the fix to start coming out around May 2022. These will use the AGESA V2 ComboPI 1.2.0.7 (or later) microcode. The latest version of AGESA in distribution is 1.2.0.6b.

Source: AMD

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81 Comments on AMD Isolates Windows 11 and Windows 10 Performance Stuttering Issues to fTPM

#51

znakistu

Hopefully it will happen very fast, my ROG STRIX AE has some stutter. And i can't switch.

#52

LabRat 891

There is so much done 'behind the scenes' on a giving system that counts on the HW being fast enough to not be noticeable. When you get into extremely low-level data transactions that implicitly take (effectively) priority 0, of course you're gonna have problems.

IMO, TPM was forced to make all 'secure' processes uniquely identifiable and 'fingerprint' to the user.
Oh, how I miss the days when the better part of the tech community was up in arms over hidden serialization in the Pentium 3. Such a distant memory now...

#53

Tecknickel

Is there a list somewhere of the boards known to be affected?

#54

ThrashZone

eidairaman1AsRock.

Hi,
Okay my bad I just looked at your system spec's which I guess is a little out of date
Heck I had four systems on mine at one time now down to only three since I sold one.

#55

Jism

Since i turned fTPM on i kind of experienced these very small stutters. Thought it was "Power saving" turned on combined with a shitload of programs i have running.

#56

Munozyoshi

CutechriCannot wait to get Nova Lake in however many years time. Tired of seeing too much of this stuff from AMD.

I'm not buying a scalped dTPM just to fix this, AMD. Get your shit together.

To be fair none of this is AMDs fault. Microsoft pushed this new security hardware as a requirement on Windows 11 and scalpers took notice and now we're stuck getting scalped modules IF we don't want to wait for a fix from AMD as it was stated in the article.

AnarchoPrimitivI'd really like to know what these "issues" are, I built a 2700x/5700x system in 2019 and I've literally, and I mean literally, never had a single issue, not one single black screen, not one single crash, not one single issue, and I mean that in the most literal sense. I have numerous games installed, use various content creator software, and have never had an issue, am I just lucky?

Same here, I used to build only Intel and switched to ryzen in the second gen phase. No issues with any of my builds or those I've made for friends. This kind of mentality was from the old days, where driver issues were more common. Get with the time people, there's good things to be had from both platforms. Remember when amd processors were a fire hazard? Look at Intel now

#57

Tecknickel

AnarchoPrimitivI'd really like to know what these "issues" are, I built a 2700x/5700x system in 2019 and I've literally, and I mean literally, never had a single issue, not one single black screen, not one single crash, not one single issue, and I mean that in the most literal sense. I have numerous games installed, use various content creator software, and have never had an issue, am I just lucky?

If you want to know what the "issues" are, read the article, lol. They are real and no sense in acting like they don't exist when AMD themselves is acknowledging they do. . Not everyone has the issue. Simple. Be glad you don't. What AMD needs to do is publish a list of Boards known to be affected. This is just one more thing to wonder about now everytime you experience stuttering in a game. Troubleshooting something like this can already be a nightmare.

#58

TheOne

tabascosauzJust to be clear, this isn't some sort of subtle microstutter that somehow can be made less noticeable by VRR. You either have seen it, or you haven't, there's no in-between. It's not something that plagues your system every waking moment of the day. You might see it twice in one day, or you might go a week before seeing it again.

I have had this happen to me twice since upgrading to a 3060 Ti last month, once in Cyberpunk 2077 and then a couple of days ago in a Fallout game, I was afraid it was my motherboard.

Of course it also doesn't help that my system displayed artifacts in the top center of the screen this weekend, though they did go away after a system shutdown and restart.

#59

Cutechri

MunozyoshiTo be fair none of this is AMDs fault. Microsoft pushed this new security hardware as a requirement on Windows 11

Ironic. Microsoft wanted these security requirements since 2012. AMD and Intel took too long to add VBS support to their CPUs beginning only with Intel 8th gen and Ryzen 2nd gen. Those minimum requirements aren't a coincidence. I only blame AMD for this garbage, and for the requirements, as they can have TPM and not stutter like Intel does.

#60

Punkenjoy

CutechriIronic. Microsoft wanted these security requirements since 2012. AMD and Intel took too long to add VBS support to their CPUs beginning only with Intel 8th gen and Ryzen 2nd gen. Those minimum requirements aren't a coincidence. I only blame AMD for this garbage, and for the requirements, as they can have TPM and not stutter like Intel does.

Without falling into the Intel Good Drivers, AMD Bad Drivers scheme, i agree on you. It's on AMD to fix it. The fact they release a fix is good, but it's a bit late.

Better now than never.

To get back to the drivers wars, i have 2 system at home, 1 Intel/Nvidia and 1 AMD/AMD and i had issues on both system. It was true at some point that AMD had way worst drivers on the CPU/chipset side, but Intel wasn't perfect either.

On the GPU side, Intel drivers are crap and will be crap for the foreseable future. AMD are good enough like Nvidia. few bugs there and there but overall run without issue.

And that is normal on the GPU side for intel, their iGPU was crap and couldn't run much anyway. Sometime when i read some people there, i think they don't realize how complex the PC environment is and how much work it require and how many scenario they have to test to ensure they resolve all bugs.

Sometime when i read some people, it feel they think someone just missed a coma or a semicolons in a 20 line of code program.

#61

Daxe

Many responses seem to concern Windows 11, but what about Windows 10? If BitLocker isn't used, disabling fTPM seems to be the best workaround for this issue for W10.
Unfortunately I can't find a way how to disable it. My BIOS only offers options [Enabled] / [Discrete].
tpm.msc only seems to offer an option to erase the fTPM, but not to completely disable it.
Are there any W10 workarounds that actually work?

#62

Steevo

WirkoAm I the only one wondering what these "actions" are?

When a UI request is made that accesses certain or specific parts of windows memory, like the action of the mouse acting upon the start or a tool bar, the system checks to make sure everything is OK before it allows said action to complete.
Remember when we had “drive by downloads” that also executed the malware package from the UI? This prevents that on a hardware level.

#63

Minus Infinity

DaxeMany responses seem to concern Windows 11, but what about Windows 10? If BitLocker isn't used, disabling fTPM seems to be the best workaround for this issue for W10.
Unfortunately I can't find a way how to disable it. My BIOS only offers options [Enabled] / [Discrete].
tpm.msc only seems to offer an option to erase the fTPM, but not to completely disable it.
Are there any W10 workarounds that actually work?

The fix is supposed to address Win 10 and 11 stuttering. Either wait or get ripped off on discrete chip. I don't have the issue and my board also only has same option as yours, [enabled]/discrete and I don't use bitlocker.

#64

Daxe

Minus InfinityThe fix is supposed to address Win 10 and 11 stuttering. Either wait or get ripped off on discrete chip. I don't have the issue and my board also only has same option as yours, [enabled]/discrete and I don't use bitlocker.

I know the issue exists on both W10 and W11, but why just 2 options? There's a third option: release a variant of the current BIOS that offers the option to disable fTPM.

#65

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

DaxeI know the issue exists on both W10 and W11, but why just 2 options? There's a third option: release a variant of the current BIOS that offers the option to disable fTPM.

If you set discrete with no module installed, it IS disabled

#66

R-T-B

MusselsIf you're willing to be a guinea-frog, use rufus to make a W11 ISO, with TPM and secureboot removed.

Run setup.exe from the you-ess-bee, 'upgrade' your OS and see if you disable FTPM on reboot

Why do all that when I can just turn off ftpm anytime?

#67

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

R-T-BWhy do all that when I can just turn off ftpm anytime?

Is'nt it like secure boot in that the OS wont boot without it?

#68

Cutechri

MusselsIs'nt it like secure boot in that the OS wont boot without it?

Windows 11 boots without Secure Boot. It requires it to be supported not enabled, in other words drive needs to be GPT and UEFI. I don't know about fTPM.

#69

R-T-B

MusselsIs'nt it like secure boot in that the OS wont boot without it?

Not here. Maybe with bitlocker on, but I don't have that.

WirkoAm I the only one wondering what these "actions" are?

It's said in the article. Something to do with the calander, aparently. Yes. It's that annoyingly boring.

mechtechIf it’s in the firmware. Wouldn’t that also be tied to ami/award/whoever makes motherboard bios also??

Not really. AMD is one of the vendors who like to stuff all this in their AGESA blob.

ThrashZoneHi,
Yeah isn't this just a micro code like intel does ?

No. Though they do stick it in the same UEFI binary for some reason.

DaxeUnfortunately I can't find a way how to disable it. My BIOS only offers options [Enabled] / [Discrete].

If you don't have a hardware TPM module, Discrete will disable it.

#70

ThrashZone

CutechriWindows 11 boots without Secure Boot. It requires it to be supported not enabled, in other words drive needs to be GPT and UEFI. I don't know about fTPM.

Hi,
UEFI only boot
Which amd has been that way for a long time since they killed legacy or CSM.

I'm not using any of win-11 requirements I jumped over all of them.

#71

R-T-B

ThrashZoneWhich amd has been that way for a long time since they killed legacy or CSM.

They did? My ryzen x570 board still has CSM.

#72

AVATARAT

R-T-BIt's said in the article. Something to do with the calander, aparently. Yes. It's that annoyingly boring.

I missed that, so that explains to me why I don't have a problem. I disable the calendar because I do not like it and do not use it. :D

#73

Daxe

R-T-BIf you don't have a hardware TPM module, Discrete will disable it.

Unfortunately that's not the case. Enabling discrete TPM without such a module installed results in the bios resetting itself to fTPM :-(
That's my experience with an Asus TUF Gaming X570 Plus Wifi, so I would be glad to hear about other options to disable fTPM.

#74

ThrashZone

Hi,
What on earth could the calendar be doing to cause stuttering :eek:

#75

R-T-B

DaxeUnfortunately that's not the case. Enabling discrete TPM without such a module installed results in the bios resetting itself to fTPM :-(
That's my experience with an Asus TUF Gaming X570 Plus Wifi, so I would be glad to hear about other options to disable fTPM.

That's interesting. That's not what it should do by the description, but I'm sure at least for your board you are correct.

ThrashZoneHi,
What on earth could the calendar be doing to cause stuttering :eek:

Something related to authenticating the user, is all I could guess. It all goes back to the root of trust established at install time. The better question here though is indeed WTF the calendar cares at all... it's not like we really need harsh user authentication there.

My best guess is that the calendar data is encrypted for privacy reasons (could contain events and appoinments, etc), and thus you need the TPM to access it, but that's just spitballing.

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AMD Isolates Windows 11 and Windows 10 Performance Stuttering Issues to fTPM

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