Here we go again

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Who would thought Hmmm‍♀️

They have a division in China and do not expect that? That's not news, but gossip.

Mild shock!

Nice, I hope we start to see cheap mass production of various chips soon.

"we do not know if this is a China-sponsored action" like bruh this happened in China, where theft and grift are done in broad daylight.

They may have the schematics, but actually.
The mirrors alone will require much more rnd than most think
This isn't going to effect anything for years if at all.

I know how to make a nuke, can I though.

Serves them right. If you do business in China (or Russia) and you're IP gets stolen then you have only yourself to blame.
I have no sympathy for "businesses" who only see potential profits and go to communist/dictatorship countries and then cry when something bad happens there.

It's like insurance. Insurance wont help you if you were stupid and did stupid things.

TomorrowServes them right. If you do business in China (or Russia) and you're IP gets stolen then you have only yourself to blame.
I have no sympathy for "businesses" who only see potential profits and go to communist/dictatorship countries and then cry when something bad happens there.

It's like insurance. Insurance wont help you if you were stupid and did stupid things.

Businesses love dictatorships, why do you think they and their interests were a major part of most of the coup d'etat during the cold War, heck, Mussolini even said fascism should actually be called "corporatism" because it's a merger of state and corporate power....why do you think they love doing business in China and why they continue to do so even with all the IP theft? Dictatorships mean tight control of the labor force and therefore more profitable exploitation of that labor by business interests, we're all familiar with the stories about the working conditions at Foxconn, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the business just consider the IP theft as "spillage/breakage", "the cost of doing business", etc since all the other benefits are so substantial.

What's interesting is that currently there are major companies beginning to look towards India as labor in China is becoming more expensive, Apple is currently one of these companies. At the same time, Modi is constantly increasing and consolidating his power and the power of the state (for example, Indian authorities actually raided BBC offices in India because they aired a documentary critical of Modi....silencing the press for being critical of the government is a hallmark of authoritarianism) which only makes it even more attractive to business interest....coincidence?

TomorrowIf you do business in China

huh? If you're in tech and don't do business in China you don't exist.

You live in a bubble, a very judgemental bubble

ChomiqYou what mate?

He lives in a childish 2-bit dreamworld where
west = good (actually perfect)
rest = bad

At that point it would be better not to have any arm in China.

It's also unfair to compare theft protected by a Chinese dictatorship to countries like Japan and Korea that have great companies and actively develop technology that we all use.

And... Yes, dictatorship and theft is bad, are there any kids here who don't understand that?

Shocked! Next thing we'll find out is that water's wet...

Prima.VeraUnfortunately the Asian companies, such as ones from China, Japan, or South Korea, only know how to steal proprietary IP in order to technologically progress further. This is just another day in China, nothing special.

Nah, Japan and South Korea are technological powerhouses all on their own right. China though.. yeah, IP theft and reverse engineering is cheaper and easier than R&D

So, actually we have some saying "It is right to put sanctions on them, look what they are doing" while others saying "It is right what they are doing, look at the sanctions we put on them". where is the truth?

DenverAnd... Yes, dictatorship and theft is bad, are there any kids here who don't understand that?

Do you really expect someone will ever live under technologic supremacy for all the time? Or, sooner or later, they will understand how to make boiling water? (also, let's point out there is one way of making boiling water, all the world use the same, energy transfer, think about that).

GuiltySparkSo, actually we have some saying "It is right to put sanctions on them, look what they are doing" while others saying "It is right what they are doing, look at the sanctions we put on them". where is the truth?


Do you really expect someone will ever live under technologic supremacy for all the time? Or, sooner or later, they will understand how to make boiling water? (also, let's point out there is one way of making boiling water, all the world use the same, energy transfer, think about that).

They were doing IP theft way before sanctions began, most companies that I know of never complained publicly, either chose to close their eyes, or to relocate sensitive workflows.

BoboOOZThey were doing IP theft way before sanctions began

I'm not discussing this. I'm discussing about the fact now it's somehow "intensified" w.r.t past, at least at media level. And I'm discussing about the fact that sooner or later they will learn how to make chips with the same techniques, cause if there is a common practice (and there is one) on how to make silicon printing production, they will exploit that one for sure. There is no other possibility. Also this is encouraged by sanctions and political positions (and the reason of this is pretty clear). There is no way you can stop their developments, in the end they will possibly diverge one day after some autonomous decisions, but first they have to develop at the same level. Consider, it is not that different from the time other nations developed nuclear bombs after US succeed developing the first. And like it happened that time, there is no way to stop, also because we are not talking about bombs here.

GuiltySparkI'm not discussing this. I'm discussing about the fact now it's somehow "intensified" w.r.t past, at least at media level. And I'm discussing about the fact that sooner or later they will learn how to make chips with the same techniques, cause if there is a common practice (and there is one) on how to make silicon printing production, they will exploit that one for sure. There is no other possibility. Also this is encouraged by sanctions and political positions (and the reason of this is pretty clear). There is no way you can stop their developments, in the end they will possibly diverge one day after some autonomous decisions, but first they have to develop at the same level. Consider, it is not that different from the time other nations developed nuclear bombs after US succeed developing the first. And like it happened that time, there is no way to stop, also because we are not talking about bombs here.

They won't succeed without stealing or infringing on someone's intellectual property, certain things can only be efficient if produced in X way, there are no infinite ways to reach the same result and they know that, this is the reason for technology theft.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Steal from me once, shame on you. Steal from me 3,847 times....

GuiltySparkI'm not discussing this. I'm discussing about the fact now it's somehow "intensified" w.r.t past, at least at media level. And I'm discussing about the fact that sooner or later they will learn how to make chips with the same techniques, cause if there is a common practice (and there is one) on how to make silicon printing production, they will exploit that one for sure. There is no other possibility. Also this is encouraged by sanctions and political positions (and the reason of this is pretty clear). There is no way you can stop their developments, in the end they will possibly diverge one day after some autonomous decisions, but first they have to develop at the same level. Consider, it is not that different from the time other nations developed nuclear bombs after US succeed developing the first. And like it happened that time, there is no way to stop, also because we are not talking about bombs here.

Consider that it is intensified now because now (some) companies are feeling empowered to speak up instead of just brushing stuff under the rug.

Also, the whole idea of the sanctions is not to prevent them from getting to the same place as the US and the western world. They will get there regardless, if they pay the R&D price. But the R&D price is great and, if they actually have to do the R&D instead of just stealing IP, they will have to choose their battles and will not be capable to advance in leaps on all fronts.

So it will not stop them from actually discovering boiling water, they will just have to do their honest work like everybody else to get there. And when they do that, guess what, it will take longer and it will leave them less money to put in their armies, or in buying land from poor third world countries (the so called belt and road initiative).

zlobbyMild shock!

I got a surprised look for sale too!

TomorrowServes them right. If you do business in China (or Russia) and you're IP gets stolen then you have only yourself to blame.
I have no sympathy for "businesses" who only see potential profits and go to communist/dictatorship countries and then cry when something bad happens there.

It's like insurance. Insurance wont help you if you were stupid and did stupid things.

Just so you know, they are not the ones complaining or crying. IF you READ the article THOROUGHLY, you would then know that they have already stated that it doesn't affect them whatsoever. They are only reporting it out of obligation due to xenophobic laws made by those politicians you people voted for. The ones that are crying are your politicians that think without their technological superiority, they can't take over the world. Technology that is not even theirs, they just have the biggest mouths in the world so they have the right to monopolize them all they want, because if they couldn't they would just scream and cry even more.

GuiltySparkConsider, it is not that different from the time other nations developed nuclear bombs after US succeed developing the first. And like it happened that time, there is no way to stop, also because we are not talking about bombs here.

The funny thing about nukes is that Russia stole the technology to build them from the United States and then signed an agreement with China in 1951 which exchanged nuclear secrets for uranium ore.

On top of that the Russians had helped North Korea get it's nuclear program off the ground and China endorsed it as it provided a destabilizing force in the region.

To say that it was their developments is incorrect, stolen technology is inherently not theirs.

GuiltySparkI'm not discussing this. I'm discussing about the fact now it's somehow "intensified" w.r.t past, at least at media level. And I'm discussing about the fact that sooner or later they will learn how to make chips with the same techniques, cause if there is a common practice (and there is one) on how to make silicon printing production, they will exploit that one for sure. There is no other possibility. Also this is encouraged by sanctions and political positions (and the reason of this is pretty clear). There is no way you can stop their developments, in the end they will possibly diverge one day after some autonomous decisions, but first they have to develop at the same level.

There is no "common practice" on "how to fab 5nm chips" or how to make EUV machines. ASML is the only company in the world that can make these machines. This is not something China can "figure out" is some neanderthal fashion by banging two rocks together. It requires decades of experience in the field, highly trained staff, resources, and supporting logistics and infrastructure. China's recent development of 232 layer flash (the exact same layer count as Micron's next gen flash suspiciously) going from no flash portfolio to having the exact same as the best in a mere 3 years isn't them developing their own products, it's extremely clear that China is doing what China always does, steal IP. Both Samsung and SKHynix next-gen flash all have different layer counts, the Chinese didn't even both to make an attempt to hide that they copied the tech.

This logic is backwards, China can't diverge technologically until they are at the same level as everyone else? It makes zero sense, how can you be doing your own research and the result over and over again is a carbon copy of something someone else has already done? It would make more sense for China's technology to diverge early on because there are many ways to do things in a less efficient manner, especially in the chip world.

ASML has therefore reported the incident to relevant authorities

And what are the Chinese Police or any other relevant agency in China who are in the pocket of the government going to do? Find the guy and throw him out of a high-rise building like Foxxconn? :laugh: :laugh:

They are probably going to pat him on the back, increase his social credit score and allow him to rent a fancy apartment in the big city. "Well done comrade!"

remember that western liberal democracies because of their insane capitalistic greed gave their tech to China so they could enrich themselves..... for a limited time.
Motorola went to China in 90s and eventually had a ton of their tech stolen. Motorola then went under yet all the companies in China who stole the tech are doing amazing today.
There was a reason why during the Cold War it was illegal to trade computers and engines to the USSR and other communist nations, it was called "Coordinating Committee for the Multilateral Export Control". In Communist countries IP protection is never enforced and all the tech you create will be stolen and used by them. Modern China of course IS NOT A COMMUNIST country but a single party dictatorship in bed with corporations and using western capitalisms as a tool for their enrichment.

remember the capitalist will sell the rope which will be used to hang them.