SquaredWhy are laws like this always about regulating what the consumer is allowed to buy? Why not instead require transparency to the user about what the repair options might be?

Put iPhones on the store shelf and they say "$800, screen replacement $500, screens not available for purchase" and a more repairable phone might say "$800, screen replacement $200, screens for purchase $100".

They aren't regulating what the consumer can buy, only requiring that companies repair products and offer parts for a certain number of years. You could argue that in turn this impacts what customers can buy as companies might alter products to be more repairable but that could only be a good thing.

What you describe is a libertarian ideal, in that customers should be free to make good and bad choices and are required to educate themselves. The problem with that is the end result of that is nothing is trustworthy and everything has to be researched if you take it too far. People who don't do their research don't deserve to get shafted, there are fields in which we all are uneducated and you should be required to do research for everything you buy. It's fine to apply that logic on a limited basis but overall there should be certain guarantees and protections that the government applies to the market to ensure that people aren't constantly getting shafted.

Repairable devices is one of those things that would not happen without government intervention. Listing a product's part cost does nothing if the company doesn't sell those parts to others or stops producing them quickly, both of which are their best interest and it encourages sales. It also doesn't help the user repair the device either, of which companies have been making it increasingly difficult to do.

ThrashZoneHi,
High acer/ dell/... all have policies like that and it's tough on people to litigate seeing it's expensive to fight same as the saying goes can fight the government because they have unlimited budgets lol

Forum might of been copy/ pasting AI responses so guess we'll have to get used to that bit the way MS sells were posted as "show your best with bing/.. AI" :laugh:

That the government doesn't go after these companies for using those stickers in the first place enables them to get away with screwing over customers. It's not surprising in the US though, given that the government has been extremely deferential to big businesses for a long time. The FDA can't even properly alert the public about Romaine lettuce or Salmonella outbreaks anymore because they are often months late and the damage is already done.

Vayra86Move in the right direction, for sure.

Agree, mainly for trying to reduce waste from everyone in the world buying a new "insert tech product here" every year or every other year. THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH JUNK WE HAVE CREATED IN THE PAST DECADE ALONE, from old technology.

RomoreduxAgree, mainly for trying to reduce waste from everyone in the world buying a new "insert tech product here" every year or every other year. THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH JUNK WE HAVE CREATED IN THE PAST DECADE ALONE, from old technology.

Hi,
It's going to be better to just get the accidental drop/... insurance and just do that every year for the same model or newest device :cool:

Well, it disturbs me when someone repairs a CRT monitor or TV as the power consumption is so much higher than a modern unit, so I'd say some old tech really needs to be retired.

SquaredWhy are laws like this always about regulating what the consumer is allowed to buy?

How you read this and got that out of it is beyond me, frankly. Nothing in this says anything about that.

ShrekWell, it disturbs me when someone repairs a CRT monitor or TV as the power consumption is so much higher than a modern unit, so I'd say some old tech really needs to be retired.

if you already own it.... you have to compare to the cost of sourcing materials, energy for the assembly, transport, etc... creating waste that 99% of the times isn't recycled.... and stuff i can't even remember, it's a long list.
I bet you in the end it's worst to change without a good reason to do so, especially if you're happy with the old device.

Shrek"A new directive from the EU wants its member states to implement new right to repair laws that require hardware manufacturers to repair products up to 10 years from the date of purchase."

Doesn't seem fair; what if I purchase 'new old stock'?

There is most likely a clause about "authorized retailers"

Bomby569I bet you in the end it's worst to change without a good reason to do so, especially if you're happy with the old device.

For me running cost is a good reason; a CRT can burn a lot of electricity.

ShrekFor me running cost is a good reason; a CRT can burn a lot of electricity.

that's an unfair comparison, that is for a similar sized monitor, typical crt's monitors or tv's are much smaller, especially with tvs

Bomby569that's an unfair comparison, that is for a similar sized monitor, typical crt's monitors or tv's are much smaller, especially with tvs

Actually his figure is a bit below the average, many websites list CRT power consumption at 90w.

That said, modern gaming LCDs can consume around 60w and OLEDs up to 100w depending on what's being displayed so we have almost come full circle.

You see a similar phenomenon in the US vehicle market, where larger tonnage vehicles with more relaxed fuel economy standards have continued to become more and more popular.

People are always pushing at the boarder at what is affordable to them, thus far a lot of technological advances have only enabled people to get more gluttonous with their purchases.

evernessinceActually his figure is a bit below the average, many websites list CRT power consumption at 90w.

you can say the same for the lcd numbers there, in fact much much lower then the average, idk that should be a 19'' monitor

ShrekWell, it disturbs me when someone repairs a CRT monitor or TV as the power consumption is so much higher than a modern unit, so I'd say some old tech really needs to be retired.

ShrekFor me running cost is a good reason; a CRT can burn a lot of electricity.

That's an interesting point. It's also mute. The vast majority of CRT displays have been destroyed or are not in use and this has been true for over a decade. The few that remain will never make a significant impact on the power grid. So how about we NOT special-snowflake about such things and let retro enthusiasts alone as it's ultimately none of our business anyway(and shouldn't be).

evernessinceThat said, modern gaming LCDs can consume around 60w and OLEDs up to 100w depending on what's being displayed so we have almost come full circle.

True, but you are talking a much larger screen. Try a 55inch CRT and get back to me.

R-T-BTrue, but you are talking a much larger screen. Try a 55inch CRT and get back to me.

Even at 27" inches you can get close to 60w for an LCD: www.techspot.com/review/2059-samsung-odyssey-g7/

The linked review is calibrated to 200 nits but stock it'll consume around 58w.

The new LG 27" OLED can reach 90w when displaying a 90% white screen.

These are very high end monitors and extreme cases but it's definitely possible even at 27 inches.

LCDs are definitely more efficient but a lot of higher end monitors are trading that efficiency for pixel transition times.

evernessinceEven at 27" inches you can get close to 60w for an LCD:

With absurd nits a CRT never approached, sure.

evernessinceLCDs are definitely more efficient but a lot of higher end monitors are trading that efficiency for pixel transition times.

It's all about nits, the transition times cost nearly nothing.

R-T-BTrue, but you are talking a much larger screen. Try a 55inch CRT and get back to me.

that is very uncommon, that's like a unicorn. I once saw one even bigger personally, but that was not your typical CRT. And considering they aren't produced for so long and they were so few, most are already dead for sure, as they are harder to repair for lack of parts.

Bomby569that is very uncommon, that's like a unicorn. I once saw one even bigger personally, but that was not your typical CRT. And considering they aren't produced for so long and they were so few, most are already dead for sure, as they are harder to repair for lack of parts.

My point was the power consumption of one would be through the ceiling.

ShrekWell, it disturbs me when someone repairs a CRT monitor or TV as the power consumption is so much higher than a modern unit, so I'd say some old tech really needs to be retired.

You know what's truly disturbing?

That 24 inch CRT you used to have, used about 75-95 W/h
The new OLED 48 inch comes in at.... the same amount of power usage :)

We saved half power per inch, so now the smallest 'regular TV' is double sized.

But let's keep living the dream! Meanwhile, the footprint per person isn't going down, its going up as wealth goes up. Because we don't have one TV in the house anymore. We've got one in several rooms. Plus a PC. Plus...

More interesting numbers
www.rtings.com/tv/learn/led-oled-power-consumption-and-electricity-cost

R-T-BTrue, but you are talking a much larger screen. Try a 55inch CRT and get back to me.

See above for what really happens wrt power usage.
One could also say 'try finding a 24 inch OLED and get back to me' ;)

R-T-BMy point was the power consumption of one would be through the ceiling.

i found a Sony Z9G (ZG9) lcd consuming 225W and it isn't even that big, there are news of 200'' tv's. Those CRT were extreme cases and rare, they were enormous (the box not the actual screen size) and weighed a ton almost literally. I don't know if these enormous lcds and oleds won't become normal soon and with insane nits to make it worst.

A bit late to the party, but here we go...

bugRather then regulating the right to repair, I would have mandated modular designs instead. You know, no more this is glued to that, so they have to be replaced together, no more "tough luck, this laptop came with 4GB of soldered RAM".

Amen. Something like "make it actually be repairable so the user can take advantage of his right to repair" :)

Vayra86But I compare this move to the one that GDPR brought us.

Okay, I understood your point about informing your average citizen about his rights, and although legislators may mean well, in the end my life gets more complicated. What GDPR brought me is the need to click on 267 different items to say that I don't want my data being sold just to check out what the weather will be tomorrow.

Now, of course you'll say "But at least now you have the right to choose" and you'd technically be correct, but the end result is that sites are now cumbersome and obtuse. Would it not have been easier to mandate "opt-out by default" and a less intrusive opt-in? What we have now is madness.

I expect this will be more of the same: sounds like a good idea, but it's not so good in practice.

Yes, in theory it sounds good, like a step in the right direction, but in the end when it's in effect if there are so many omissions and loopholes (be they intentional or unintentional), does it even matter?

neblogaiI hope that this will at least lead to more component standardization, so that spare part costs can be reduced by having less categories/more reuse between devices.

It's a world I often dream of, but doubt we'll see soon. Have 2-3 models of something instead of 20-30, have as much parts of it be interchangeable, have common standards for common parts etc. Alas, I know that manufacturers have strong lobbies and won't like it if you buy stuff less often.

R0H1TAll regulations & polity are by design entrenched to make the vested interests even more profits, now they could throw a bone or two (to the masses) like this proposed regulation but in the end IMO the big corps will end up making more money any way!

[SIZE=5][URL='https://www.macrumors.com/2023/02/10/apple-planning-to-limit-iphone-15-usb-c-port/']Apple Reportedly Planning to Limit iPhone 15's USB-C Port in the Same Way as Lightning[/URL][/SIZE]

It's omissions and loopholes like this that make me wonder if the Comission is trolling us or it's just incompetent. You know damn well that Apple is a slippery one, why would you give them room to do what they do best and circumvent your rules?

ThrashZoneHi,
This brings the question who is using a 10 year old device especially cell phone when they're outdated after 4 and battery is crap after 2 maybe 3 at best
Selling/ auto including 10 year warranties will be pretty expensive careful what you ask for EU you guys and gals are already seeing higher prices :laugh:

Imagine a world where a common smartphone battery standard is a thing and you can easily open the back of your 5-year-old phone and replace the dying battery in a minute. Imagine if the bootloader was mandated to be factory unlocked and you could flash the latest OS of your choice on it. Sounds good, no?

bugTbh, I wanted to give away a tablet that was collecting dust in a drawer. Working fine, no repairs needed. Lo and behold, Google Play would want nothing to do with it anymore (even if it was still listed as supported). It would seem we (customers) are up against layered defenses.

xda-developers.com could have a solution. I hope they do at least.

Bomby569

he has been fighting for right to repair really hard so i guess his views have some validity

I love Louis. He may be cynical at times, but seems like he genuinely cares and always has some good points. For those too lazy to watch the video, his points are:

- no mention of parts being available to third-party repair shops (interesting, since I saw spare parts mentioned in the document);
- no mention of making schematics needed for repair purposes available to third-party repair shops;
- no mention of making service software needed to pair parts together available to third-party repair shops (why the hell is this even a thing, Apple?!);
- having to register in a special database and maintain standard contact forms would complicate life for repair guys;

droopyROWell, if that sticker is tampered with you loose the warranty in Romania(that somehow is part of the EU). Coincidentally i just got a temporary ban on a local forum a few days ago. For suggesting that there is no reason for a manufacturer to deny the customer to do maintanance, to clean or install custom cooling on his product, in this case GPU. Or a pre-build PC system, to upgrade RAM or add SSD or clean it. The "reasons" i was told to my the mods of that forum, were like reading from a corporate lawyer's playbook, stuff like "you are not an authorized person" or "you don't know what size the thermal pads" are and the classic "it's within specs" even if the bloody vRAM is over 100ºC.

I'm on the fence on this one. On one hand, some users are experts and can often can do a better job than most shops. On the other, others are outright idiots that just break stuff.

The first thing that comes to my mind: if someone wants to claim the warranty on a non-working video card, for example, how do you know if he didn't just brick it by flashing a wrong BIOS without going all forensics detective on it? It could be a legit defective one, but it could also be user error.

RomoreduxAgree, mainly for trying to reduce waste from everyone in the world buying a new "insert tech product here" every year or every other year. THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH JUNK WE HAVE CREATED IN THE PAST DECADE ALONE, from old technology.

Most people I talk to on the matter complain about having a pile of old phones in their drawer collecting dust.

But when put in context next to keeping coal-based power plants up and running and their environmental impact, switching to a new phone or TV less often feels like a drop in the ocean.

ShrekWell, it disturbs me when someone repairs a CRT monitor or TV as the power consumption is so much higher than a modern unit, so I'd say some old tech really needs to be retired.

Hey now, keep your filthy mitts off muh little space heater! My room gets quite chilly during the winter! :)

---

My thoughts on the whole thing: first off, I wholly agree with @Vayra86 that what needs to change is most importantly people's mindset. For too long people have been conditioned that they need to buy the new thing instead of repairing the old thing and keeping it running. They live with the idea that repair is not sustainable and a new model is the way. Truly, artificially raising the cost of repair and the magic of marketing have zombified them to the point that they don't want to know about repair.

Man is an imperfect beast and the big players take full advantage of his imperfections... Oh, too difficult to deal with repairing it? Get the new model! Jack has the new model, does it not make you feel bad? Get the new model! Or better yet, buy this now, wait another six months, get the even newer model and rub it all in Jack's face. Think about how good that will feel. Just get the new model!!! Yeesss, that's a good boy...

So is this new legislation the way to go? I really can't be certain. I can only hope that it's one small step in the right direction.

The masses like being told what to like. If sustainable suddenly became the new sexy, people would start caring. But right now they don't. You can try to educate them, but pretty soon they stop listening. No, what we need to do is figure out how to make sustainable the new sexy.

Call me crazy, but I think that with the way the average Joe thinks and acts, a paid campaign where celebrities and influencers (God, I hate that word) start upselling people on the new repairable hotness would prove to be more efficient than EU legislation. I... I think I can see it...

"Hey errybody issyaboy Pnannyslayer69, back wit anutha one of dem block rockin repairable phones. This one be crazy, y'all, you can have the screen replaced for $25 a pop! I dun replaced my screen twice this last week alone cause my hands be always sweaty from holdin' dat paper, mayne! And I dun did it all by myself with just this itty-bitty screwdriver that came included with it! Now that's crazy, son!"

Might just work...

The modern economy is based on eternal growth with limited resources, and in some places stagnant or even shrinking population, the only way it grows is buy making more, selling more, buying more. I think you guys have the right mindset but you're fighting the wind, it's a losing battle, everyone from politicians, companies, regular employees, we all live on this paradigm.

There is a quote from Henry Ford, "you can have a model T on any colour as long as it's black". Of course if everyone had one model of car and one colour, and a durable one, why would anyone ever want to buy a new car. So car companies facing decreasing sales, started to make new models every x years, new colours, etc... so you have to get the newest thing, a shiniest thing then your neighbour, etc...
This is how our economy works, it collapses if you deviate from it.

Nobody wants people to hold on to their car or smartphone, not the politician, not the companies, not the employees of those companies. Losing battle.

Bomby569The modern economy is based on eternal growth with limited resources, and in some places stagnant or even shrinking population, the only way it grows is buy making more, selling more, buying more. I think you guys have the right mindset but you're fighting the wind, it's a losing battle, everyone from politicians, companies, regular employees, we all live on this paradigm.

There is a quote from Henry Ford, "you can have a model T on any colour as long as it's black". Of course if everyone had one model of car and one colour, and a durable one, why would anyone ever want to buy a new car. So car companies facing decreasing sales, started to make new models every x years, new colours, etc... so you have to get the newest thing, a shiniest thing then your neighbour, etc...
This is how our economy works, it collapses if you deviate from it.

Nobody wants people to hold on to their car or smartphone, not the politician, not the companies, not the employees of those companies. Losing battle.

Listen, bud, I won't go down without a fight, alright?! Do you have any idea how many screens, batteries and various other phone parts I've replaced these past few years? On some phones I've legitimately replaced the screen three times. My AliExpress orders page looks like I run a freaking repair business... :D

Nuke DukemI'm on the fence on this one. On one hand, some users are experts and can often can do a better job than most shops. On the other, others are outright idiots that just break stuff.

The first thing that comes to my mind: if someone wants to claim the warranty on a non-working video card, for example, how do you know if he didn't just brick it by flashing a wrong BIOS without going all forensics detective on it? It could be a legit defective one, but it could also be user error.

Those are not covered by warranty. Things like physically damaging the card or it's components, the board getting fried by a power surge, custom BIOS. But that is the deal with DIY if your screwdriver slips and you scratch the PCB it's your fault ;) My card should not "suffer" temperatures close to or above 100ºC on vRAM or hot spot for it's warranty period because the manufacturer skimped on QA, thermal pads or TIM. Also my ears would suffer the high noise.
I woul agree if i could send the card, my custom TIM and thermal pads and an authorized person at the manufacturers service would swap them for free and reapply the warranty sticker. None are an option ATM.

Nuke DukemListen, bud, I won't go down without a fight, alright?! Do you have any idea how many screens, batteries and various other phone parts I've replaced these past few years? On some phones I've legitimately replaced the screen three times. My AliExpress orders page looks like I run a freaking repair business... :D

i did it too, purposefully difficult do open and swap parts so you buy a new one. Even if it was the law they had to send you a new part to swap, they would super glue everything (like some already do) so you didn't do it :D

super glue
a million screws of hundred different sizes
weird screws that you need to buy a special tool
warranty stickers
super fragile parts so they almost dare you to not brake it
etc...
and even the new trend that they want to stop you from importing parts (Louis talked about this)

droopyROThose are not covered by warranty. Things like physically damaging the card or it's components, the board getting fried by a power surge, custom BIOS. But that is the deal with DIY if your screwdriver slips and you scratch the PCB it's your fault ;)

You misunderstood me, so let me point to your earlier comment and be more clear: the one good reason for manufacturers to use the sticker is simple - there is no way to know if the user has the skills to properly handle the item. If anything goes wrong and the warranty sticker is missing or damaged, as much as it hurts me to say it: yes, it should be assumed that the user is at fault.

The only scenario I see where I could agree with you is if by some miracle you present a document that's written and signed by a certified technician stating that the repair was done by you under his supervision and he automatically assumes responsibility for the repair.

droopyROMy card should not "suffer" temperatures close to or above 100ºC on vRAM or hot spot for it's warranty period because the manufacturer skimped on QA, thermal pads or TIM. Also my ears would suffer the high noise.

You have lots of other options before tearing into it, like:
1. Undervolting
2. Undervolting with underclocking
3. Setting a custom fan curve
4. Giving it a bit more general airflow
5. Returning the card (within 14 days, assuming it was bought digitally, you know how it goes)
6. Doing some research and not buying crap

droopyROI woul agree if i could send the card, my custom TIM and thermal pads and an authorized person at the manufacturers service would swap them for free and reapply the warranty sticker. None are an option ATM.

See now we're thinking alike :)

Bomby569i did it too, purposefully difficult do open and swap parts so you buy a new one. Even if it was the law they had to send you a new part to swap, they would super glue everything (like some already do) so you didn't do it :D

super glue
a million screws of hundred different sizes
weird screws that you need to buy a special tool
warranty stickers
super fragile parts so they almost dare you to not brake it
etc...
and even the new trend that they want to stop you from importing parts (Louis talked about this)

Aaah, yes, the glue, so much glue. Thanks, manufacturers, I hate it!