ZoneDymoyeah 100 to 200 more for 1000 dollar gpu's....that is a similar price.
and everything you said afterwards is completely irrelevant to the argument.

You said:
AMD market share is irrelevant, and the only way they can sell something is by dropping prices.
Considering its performance positioning, the 7900XTX is “cheap”, but they are selling bad anyway.

Then I said their cards are not cheap at all considering the 4080 etc etc etc, so again, explain to me how they are selling it cheap because they "have to" and because "their market share is irrelevant" when really it isnt a cheap card.

200€ on a 1000€ card is a big difference. Maybe you are right, they cannot be considered “cheap” but definitely CHEAPER in a completely crazy market. But the point stands: no one (relatively) buy a Radeon because they don’t trust the brand. And I fully agree.
they have to lower prices to try to sell some. Nvidia hat to do the same , to a lesser extent, with 4080s, initially priced too high.
I would be their number one supporter if they could only release a reliable and consistent products.
As I said , before being called a liar by an AMD cheerleader (quite expected) I installed several in the last 8/10 months, especially 6700XT because they had a very good price for customers, but all of them ended up in a more or less angry customer.

ZoneDymoI mean...did the RDNA2 not fit that bill?

You couldn't buy neither of RDNA2 and Ampere most of their lifetime. Hardcore overpriced deficite unicorns of products they were. So no, RDNA2 is the complete opposite of what counts.

Beginner Micro DeviceYou couldn't buy neither of RDNA2 and Ampere most of their lifetime. Hardcore overpriced deficite unicorns of products they were. So no, RDNA2 is the complete opposite of what counts.

I'd happily buy NVIDIA if they weren't overpriced and hadn't gone full retard and dropped the type-C port, and I'd happily buy AMD if they could not forget how low-load power consumption works every new generation. Because neither of this is true (and because I'm not paying money to Intel for their Arc rubbish), I instead sidegraded from a second-hand RTX 2070 SUPER to a second-hand RTX 2080 Ti earlier this year. It really pisses me off that that was the only sane option available, and that it's still the only sane option available.

Assimilatorsidegraded

Not the word. You upgraded, yet not by a lot. Sidegrade is buying 4060 Ti after having 3060 Ti as you need a microscope to tell what card is inside.

And 2080 Ti outperforms 2070 Super by 30 percent at least. It's at least not hard to notice.

AssimilatorI'd happily buy NVIDIA if they weren't overpriced and hadn't gone full retard and dropped the type-C port, and I'd happily buy AMD if they could not forget how low-load power consumption works every new generation. Because neither of this is true (and because I'm not paying money to Intel for their Arc rubbish), I instead sidegraded from a second-hand RTX 2070 SUPER to a second-hand RTX 2080 Ti earlier this year. It really pisses me off that that was the only sane option available, and that it's still the only sane option available.

Did you choose the 2080Ti for the usb port ? Because a 4070 would have been a better choice performance and energy wise

Beginner Micro DeviceNot the word. You upgraded, yet not by a lot. Sidegrade is buying 4060 Ti after having 3060 Ti as you need a microscope to tell what card is inside.

And 2080 Ti outperforms 2070 Super by 30 percent at least. It's at least not hard to notice.

30% for (insane) nowadays standards are quite the upgrade.
See your example with the 4060Ti…

Assimilatorthat was the only sane option available

And in my (Feb'23) case the only reasonable GPUs of choice for me were 6700 XT and 6800, yet I simply hadn't got enough money for the latter so I YOLO purchased (no checking, no testing, just straight-up pre-paid buy on the 2nd hand market from a guy from a 'nother city) a 6700 XT. Wanted to have my 1080 Ti as a secondary device but ended up selling it due to money issues. I'm not a moneymaker for sure...

That YOLO upgrade is zactly the same level upgrade as yours btw. And I don't really regret that. Faster is faster. And my 6700 XT eats less than 1080 Ti, also nice.

Max(IT)quite the upgrade

Nah, man. Quite the upgrade is going, say, RX 5700 XT after having a puny HD 5550.

Beginner Micro DeviceNah, man. Quite the upgrade is going, say, RX 5700 XT after having a puny HD 5550.

I never wait more than 2/3 years for an upgrade. And the 5700XT was by far the worst purchase of my life
There’s were AMD really started to screw things up…

Max(IT)I never wait more than 2/3 years for an upgrade.

Let's say you bought an RTX 3090 in late 2020. Almost 3 years have passed as of now. Still no games you can't comfortably play at 1080p and 1440p, and almost no games too heavy (given they're maxed out) for the card at 2160p. Upgrade is still OK, getting more speed is always welcome but it's unnecessary. You can easily wait for 5000 series still capable of playing anything at high resolutions and high settings with more than acceptable framerates. And getting a 2.5 times better card every 6 years is kinda more satisfying than getting a 1.6 times better card every 3 years. IMHO, of course.

Beginner Micro DeviceLet's say you bought an RTX 3090 in late 2020. Almost 3 years have passed as of now. Still no games you can't comfortably play at 1080p and 1440p, and almost no games too heavy (given they're maxed out) for the card at 2160p. Upgrade is still OK, getting more speed is always welcome but it's unnecessary. You can easily wait for 5000 series still capable of playing anything at high resolutions and high settings with more than acceptable framerates. And getting a 2.5 times better card every 6 years is kinda more satisfying than getting a 1.6 times better card every 3 years. IMHO, of course.

Targeting 60 fps in AAAs as I do, I'll back you up on this. Otherwise the RTX 4090 is quite the proposition... I just don't feel like it's worth it this time around. The 4090 doesn't have any bleeding edge technology (for the time of its release) like the 3090 did.

Beginner Micro DeviceLet's say you bought an RTX 3090 in late 2020. Almost 3 years have passed as of now. Still no games you can't comfortably play at 1080p and 1440p, and almost no games too heavy (given they're maxed out) for the card at 2160p. Upgrade is still OK, getting more speed is always welcome but it's unnecessary. You can easily wait for 5000 series still capable of playing anything at high resolutions and high settings with more than acceptable framerates. And getting a 2.5 times better card every 6 years is kinda more satisfying than getting a 1.6 times better card every 3 years. IMHO, of course.

Yes I didn’t say my upgrade pattern is a wise one. By the way I had a 3080 and I bought a 4080…
I could have waited for sure.

Max(IT)Did you choose the 2080Ti for the usb port ?

Yes.

Max(IT)200€ on a 1000€ card is a big difference. Maybe you are right, they cannot be considered “cheap” but definitely CHEAPER in a completely crazy market. But the point stands: no one (relatively) buy a Radeon because they don’t trust the brand. And I fully agree.
they have to lower prices to try to sell some. Nvidia hat to do the same , to a lesser extent, with 4080s, initially priced too high.
I would be their number one supporter if they could only release a reliable and consistent products.
As I said , before being called a liar by an AMD cheerleader (quite expected) I installed several in the last 8/10 months, especially 6700XT because they had a very good price for customers, but all of them ended up in a more or less angry customer.

yeah and I asked (editted a bit later) to elaborate on that a bit, why were the customers "angry", what did the cards do or not do that the customers wanted it? and also how did you handle it?

ZoneDymoyeah and I asked (editted a bit later) to elaborate on that a bit, why were the customers "angry", what did the cards do or not do that the customers wanted it? and also how did you handle it?

Oh I didn’t notice the question. Customers were upset because the cards sooner or later caused issues with their PC, not for performance (never has been a problem with Radeons). In a few cases I had to re-install Windows to fix it. This never happened to me before. In other cases I just had to clean install drivers trying a different version. I was always able to fix the issue, at the end, but in most of the cases customer’s reaction was like “I told you I wanted a GeForce…”. In a couple of PCs I had MULTIPLE issues over the time, always software related, and I cannot really blame the user for that.
Considering the number of issues I’ve had with my personal 5700XT, I can understand their point.

Max(IT)Oh I didn’t notice the question. Customers were upset because the cards sooner or later caused issues with their PC, not for performance (never has been a problem with Radeons). In a few cases I had to re-install Windows to fix it. This never happened to me before. In other cases I just had to clean install drivers trying a different version. I was always able to fix the issue, at the end, but in most of the cases customer’s reaction was like “I told you I wanted a GeForce…”. In a couple of PCs I had MULTIPLE issues over the time, always software related, and I cannot really blame the user for that.
Considering the number of issues I’ve had with my personal 5700XT, I can understand their point.

soo the users are so ermm it-incapable that doing a clean install of drivers is an issue for them, but they do run into issues where a re-install of windows is needed? how? or did they started messing around with things? or was a windows update to blame?
I doubt people like that would ever do a driver update themselves.
My sisters for example would never do a driver issue and both have been running my old HD6950's now for forever without issues, only now some compatibility stuff is starting to rear its head with newer titles (the very reason why I got a newer card many many years ago)
(also just for being fair, a friend has an rtx3060ti which I recently helped do a clean (DDU) install off because that too gave issues after a driver update)

also weird people that are that incapable somehow were influenced by Nvidia's marketing division, heck I dont even know where they got Geforce from, one would think they would refer to it as "RTX On" or something silly like that :p
and that they would demand something like that when its pretty clear they dont know the first thing about any of it.....

I do know the 5700xt had issues, blackscreen stuff specifically, friend of mine also had it with that card and got a 3070.

thanks for the answers btw.

ZoneDymosoo the users are so ermm it-incapable that doing a clean install of drivers is an issue for them, but they do run into issues where a re-install of windows is needed? how? or did they started messing around with things? or was a windows update to blame?
I doubt people like that would ever do a driver update themselves.
My sisters for example would never do a driver issue and both have been running my old HD6950's now for forever without issues, only now some compatibility stuff is starting to rear its head with newer titles (the very reason why I got a newer card many many years ago)
(also just for being fair, a friend has an rtx3060ti which I recently helped do a clean (DDU) install off because that too gave issues after a driver update)

also weird people that are that incapable somehow were influenced by Nvidia's marketing division, heck I dont even know where they got Geforce from, one would think they would refer to it as "RTX On" or something silly like that :p
and that they would demand something like that when its pretty clear they dont know the first thing about any of it.....

I do know the 5700xt had issues, blackscreen stuff specifically, friend of mine also had it with that card and got a 3070.

thanks for the answers btw.

you are missing the point. Users were the same level of Nvidia's customers, but the latter didn't experience any issue.

Max(IT)you are missing the point. Users were the same level of Nvidia's customers, but the latter didn't experience any issue.

no I get what you are saying, I just wonder how the issues arose.
If you set up the PC for them, install the drivers, windows etc and its all fine at that point, how do they run into issues a bit later?
Like if they dont change anything then nothing should happen right?

that is why I was asking, is a windows update to blame? something these users could not control? or did they do a driver update (which you know, should not cause issues, im not excusing it if it did, im just wondering)?

ZoneDymono I get what you are saying, I just wonder how the issues arose.
If you set up the PC for them, install the drivers, windows etc and its all fine at that point, how do they run into issues a bit later?
Like if they dont change anything then nothing should happen right?

that is why I was asking, is a windows update to blame? something these users could not control? or did they do a driver update (which you know, should not cause issues, im not excusing it if it did, im just wondering)?

we are going OT here...
basically I set up every PC and test it with my suite of applications. The issues appeared after a few months (I'd say from 3 to 8, approximately) of "normal usage". Driver were updated, Windows was updated since this is what I usually suggest my customers to do, and software installed and used.
After a while, AMD often mess things up. They are to blame. You can add Microsoft to the mix, for sure, but as I said, also Nvidia's customers were using Windows and they had less problems.
In the same timeframe the only Nvidia issue I can remember was a driver update that created a problem with a 3060Ti. I just had to tell the customer to install the previous version waiting for the fix (that arrived like 3 days after).

My point has been discussed enough.
I don't particularly like Nvidia, quite the contrary (their price policy is an insult, and their greed is notorious ) , but AMD definitely is not a reliable option at this point.

Assimilator*slow clap*

We're not talking about the NVIDIA and AMD of years ago. We're talking about them today. This rambling is irrelevant.


How the actual f**k in any universe is this the fault of NVIDIA. Why would you torpedo your own argument with a completely irrelevant example?


The fact that I refuse to buy an AMD card until they can deliver a GPU on day one, with low-load power consumption comparable to NVIDIA, renders this argument irrelevant too.

no comment about the GDDR6 issue on nvidia cards then? Or about them dying while playing New World? Gonna blame that on the game dev are we? What about nvidia cards dying during the Diablo 4? Yeah I just found out about that, took an extended weekend holiday and came back with two GPUs sitting on my desk - clients say black screen then reboot while playing D4, now the system BSODs when installing any graphics driver. I googled "nvidia + diablo IV" and a bunch of threads came up! Oh and what about that driver version nvidia released a while ago that killed graphics cards for a couple of days until they released a hotfix? Gonna sweap all that under the rug are we? Gonna stick our fingers in our ears, go LALALALALALA and pretend these problems didn't exist? Nvidia is perfect? They make BETTER hardware? My ass.

Those who forget or ignore mistakes are doomed to repeat them my friend. Quit fanboying and look at the bigger picture. Nvidia is a company that only cares for profits. If they can find a way to take an extra dollar from you they will fight for it - and not by making their products better, or undercutting the competition, but by cutting corners and lying in their marketing fluff, shifting products in their products stack and releasing the same turd in a new box (btw AMD are guilty of the latter two as well - all the way back to the 7970 / R9 280x days).

I'm not trying to kiss AMD's ass. Their current product line and pricing is effectively mirroring nvidia so they can kiss my pimply @$$ along with team green (I have a cheek for each of them, and whomever shows the most zeal can kiss the fleshy bit in the middle!!!) But people like you really piss me off. You're entitled to your own preferences and opinion but stop trying to sway. Let people enjoy things.

And rambling? Really? Is that how you see arguments and examples? As rambling? You my fried are living in la-la land.

Max(IT)I don’t even bother to read the rest. It’s something well known: AMD supporters are worse than Apple’s and in constant denial.
I really don’t care about brand worshipping and I gladly leave it to you.
But don’t you dare call me a liar , dude.

I am in no way an AMD supporter. Their practices are just as bad as nvidia's right now, and I did mention the most probable reason I haven't had many AMD card returns is because I'm not selling nearly as many as nvidia products, but you couldn't be bothered to read since you have your green goggles on.

Max(IT)I’m in this business since most of the users here probably were in kindergarten and you don’t know me.

The use of "dude" is a good clue on how old you are. I was selling PC's back in when most PC expansion boards came in anti-static bags, not boxes - or at moast a simple unbranded box. When you had to configure the CPU using jumpers, and every shop had a pile of manuals in a shelf somewhere. When you had to configure each piece of hardware's DMA and IRQ, and make sure they were not conflicting. Back when not every PC had a mouse or a color monitor, and sound cards were a luxury - but let's not argue about that, it's not very relevant.

See I remember a time when there was real competition in the graphics market - when AMD and Nvidia wouldn't dare pull crap like they are now (overpriced hardware, moving products up the stack, trying to sell DLSS and FSR as "performance" and crap like that). If they did, other manufacturers like 3dfx, PowerVR - hell even S3 or SIS would catch up and they were genuinely afraid of losing customers. Believe it or not right now I'm rooting for intel. First time in over 20 years. I really hope they can make something out of ARK and put some pressure on nvidia and AMD.

kanecvr7970 / R9 280x days

Just for the sake of fairness, 280X was launched at $300, whereas 7970 had a 550 dollar price tag on its head. Same for almost half the price? Completely fine. (IIRC 7970 dropped to ~430 bucks a month before they released 280X, still way more expensive than the "same turd in a new box")

7600 is basically a polished 6600 XT ($279 VS $379 MSRP, or $279 VS $250 current price), that's why it's worse.

Beginner Micro DeviceJust for the sake of fairness, 280X was launched at $300, whereas 7970 had a 550 dollar price tag on its head. Same for almost half the price? Completely fine. (IIRC 7970 dropped to ~430 bucks a month before they released 280X, still way more expensive than the "same turd in a new box")

7600 is basically a polished 6600 XT ($279 VS $379 MSRP, or $279 VS $250 current price), that's why it's worse.

Yeah, you make a good point, I didn't consider pricing - but there's also the 5850 / 6850 situation. Those if I'm not mistaking cost pretty much the same (can't really remember and I'm too lazy to google it it's past midnight here). The 7600 and 4060 on the other hand really are an insult to consumers.

kanecvr5850 / 6850 situation. Those if I'm not mistaking cost pretty much the same

$179 in 6850 and $299 in 5850. Can't tell it's a minor difference in money. The only insult here is class shifting which is perfectly offset by way lower price and lower TDP.

Max(IT)200€ on a 1000€ card is a big difference. Maybe you are right, they cannot be considered “cheap” but definitely CHEAPER in a completely crazy market. But the point stands: no one (relatively) buy a Radeon because they don’t trust the brand. And I fully agree.
they have to lower prices to try to sell some. Nvidia hat to do the same , to a lesser extent, with 4080s, initially priced too high.
I would be their number one supporter if they could only release a reliable and consistent products.
As I said , before being called a liar by an AMD cheerleader (quite expected) I installed several in the last 8/10 months, especially 6700XT because they had a very good price for customers, but all of them ended up in a more or less angry customer.

Wtaf are you on about, the masses of people complaining about AMD drivers are not using them, odd.

I refute all your shit while using a 7900XT without ANY issues, your hyperbolic nonesense isn't backed up by many owners asking for help on TPU forums.

And I have few issues with Nvidia drivers either.

kanecvrno comment about the GDDR6 issue on nvidia cards then?

What GDDR6 issue?

kanecvrOr about them dying while playing New World?

You mean the EVGA quality control issue that is in no way NVIDIA's fault?

kanecvrWhat about nvidia cards dying during the Diablo 4? Yeah I just found out about that, took an extended weekend holiday and came back with two GPUs sitting on my desk - clients say black screen then reboot while playing D4, now the system BSODs when installing any graphics driver. I googled "nvidia + diablo IV" and a bunch of threads came up!

Once again, third-party cards, not NVIDIA FEs.

Now, there is some scuttlebutt that this occurs due to these third-parties following NVIDIA's reference design, while the FE cards are overbuilt compared to the reference design. While this is definitely a concern, there's no evidence to back it up and it's honestly more likely that it's due to these third parties making their own cost cuts.

kanecvrOh and what about that driver version nvidia released a while ago that killed graphics cards for a couple of days until they released a hotfix?

The one that happened all the way back in 2017? And to a handful of cards?

kanecvrGonna sweap all that under the rug are we? Gonna stick our fingers in our ears, go LALALALALALA and pretend these problems didn't exist? Nvidia is perfect? They make BETTER hardware? My ass.

No, I'm not, but what you don't seem to be able to comprehend is the difference in magnitude. The NVIDIA issues you've listed have occurred in a handful of cards; whereas literally every reviewer who got an AMD 5000, 6000, or 7000-series on launch complained about the drivers. That's before you get to the multitude of threads by end-users complaining about the same thing.

AMD hasn't built up a reputation for bad drivers because of some conspiracy or bias by the tech press. They've built up that reputation because their drivers are *f**king bad. NVIDIA may not be perfect but in comparison to AMD, has fewer driver issues and far fewer major breaking driver issues. That's an indisputable fact.

kanecvrThose who forget or ignore mistakes are doomed to repeat them my friend. Quit fanboying and look at the bigger picture. Nvidia is a company that only cares for profits. If they can find a way to take an extra dollar from you they will fight for it - and not by making their products better, or undercutting the competition, but by cutting corners and lying in their marketing fluff, shifting products in their products stack and releasing the same turd in a new box (btw AMD are guilty of the latter two as well - all the way back to the 7970 / R9 280x days).

I'm not trying to kiss AMD's ass. Their current product line and pricing is effectively mirroring nvidia so they can kiss my pimply @$$ along with team green (I have a cheek for each of them, and whomever shows the most zeal can kiss the fleshy bit in the middle!!!)

And I agree completely with you. I hate NVIDIA because they are greedy a**holes who are going backwards by dropping USB-C, I hate AMD because they have taken a page out of NVIDIA's greed playbook and can't figure out how to write proper launch-day and low-load driver, and I hate Intel because after all their hype their GPUs turned out to be even more disappointing than their CPUs, which I would've said was impossible but Raja Koduri says hi.

kanecvrBut people like you really piss me off. You're entitled to your own preferences and opinion but stop trying to sway. Let people enjoy things.

I'm not trying to sway anything or anyone. I'm trying to hold companies to account for their BS.

kanecvrAnd rambling? Really? Is that how you see arguments and examples? As rambling? You my fried are living in la-la land.

Your examples are personal experience, and personal experience is not compelling evidence. That's how the scientific method works.

AssimilatorNo, I'm not, but what you don't seem to be able to comprehend is the difference in magnitude. The NVIDIA issues you've listed have occurred in a handful of cards; whereas literally every reviewer who got an AMD 5000, 6000, or 7000-series on launch complained about the drivers. That's before you get to the multitude of threads by end-users complaining about the same thing.

AMD hasn't built up a reputation for bad drivers because of some conspiracy or bias by the tech press. They've built up that reputation because their drivers are *f**king bad. NVIDIA may not be perfect but in comparison to AMD, has fewer driver issues and far fewer major breaking driver issues. That's an indisputable fact.

I think that was long time ago with the drivers issues. I have never had a driver problems since i changed my Vega 64 to a 5600XT and then 6900XT. Vega 64, didn't have driver issues as well to be fair.

To add to this a bit. You can't say that his experience is irrelevant about the drivers since most people blaming driver for something and it is not even a driver issue. Most of the time it is their own doing and yet the 'AMD bad driver' still sticks and it is easier to blame someone else about some problems. I've never had a problem with the drivers for a long time. Of course there were games or apps that needed an update since these were not working as intended but put it all in a driver issue basket is a stretch in my opinion. If there was a driver issue for the newly released cards from AMD, (watched some yt reviews and it was never mentioned to be fair) these were literally taken care of week after. If you would cling to a list of issues AMD drivers still have and are listed on AMD site well, NV has that list as well and it is normal since there is always room for improvement.

ratirtI think that was long time ago with the drivers issues.

No it wasn't:

W1zzardDuring testing I also encountered crashes in AC:Valhalla and Elden Ring

W1zzardWe measured a shocking power consumption result for multi-monitor and media playback.

ratirtI have never had a driver problems since i changed my Vega 64 to a 5600XT and then 6900XT. Vega 64, didn't have driver issues as well to be fair.

To add to this a bit. You can't say that his experience is irrelevant about the drivers since most people blaming driver for something and it is not even a driver issue. Most of the time it is their own doing and yet the 'AMD bad driver' still sticks and it is easier to blame someone else about some problems. I've never had a problem with the drivers for a long time. Of course there were games or apps that needed an update since these were not working as intended but put it all in a driver issue basket is a stretch in my opinion. If there was a driver issue for the newly released cards from AMD, (watched some yt reviews and it was never mentioned to be fair) these were literally taken care of week after. If you would cling to a list of issues AMD drivers still have and are listed on AMD site well, NV has that list as well and it is normal since there is always room for improvement.

Your personal experiences are equally as irrelevant.