Sunday, November 10th 2024

AMD "Zen 6" to Retain Socket AM5 for Desktops, 2026-27 Product Launches

Nov 10th, 2024 22:18 Discuss (100 Comments)

The desktop version of AMD's next-generation "Zen 6" microarchitecture will retain Socket AM5, Kepler_L2, a reliable source with hardware leaks, revealed. What's more interesting is the rumor that the current "Zen 5" will remain AMD's mainstay for the entirety of 2025, and possibly even most of 2026, at least for the desktop platform. AMD will be banking heavily on the recently announced Ryzen 7 9800X3D, and its high core-count siblings, the Ryzen 9 9950X3D and possible 9900X3D, to see the company through for 2025 against Intel. The 9800X3D posted significantly higher gaming performance than Intel, and the 9950X3D is expected to be at least faster than the 7950X3D at gaming, which means its gaming performance, coupled with multithreaded application performance from its 16-core/32-thread count should be the face of AMD's desktop processor lineup for at least the next year.

It wouldn't be off-character for AMD to launch "Zen 6" on AM5, and not refresh the platform. The company had launched three microarchitectures (Zen thru Zen 3) on Socket AM4. With "Zen 6," AMD has the opportunity to not just increase IPC, but also core-counts per CCD, cache sizes, a new foundry node such as 3 nm, and probably even introduce features such as hybrid architecture and an NPU to the desktop platform, which means it could at least update the current 6 nm client I/O die (cIOD) while retaining AM5. A new cIOD could give AMD the much-needed opportunity to update the DDR5 memory controllers to support higher memory frequencies. The Kepler_L2 leak predicts a "late-2026 or early-2027" launch for desktop "Zen 6" processors. In the meantime, Intel is expected to ramp "Arrow Lake-S" on Socket LGA1851, and debut the "Panther Lake" microarchitecture on LGA1851 in 2025-26.

Source: VideoCardz

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100 Comments on AMD "Zen 6" to Retain Socket AM5 for Desktops, 2026-27 Product Launches

#26

_roman_

LittleBroIf AMD really wants for AM5 to live till the end of 2027, with release of Zen 6 they really should:
- make a proper IOD, add native support for CUDIMMS and higher clocks, decrease DDR5 latencies, significantly improve memory controller bandwidth;
- upgrade CPU <> chipset interconnection to PCIe Gen 5 x4;
- make USB 4.0 support chipset-bound, don't hang it onto CPU lanes and stop crippling CPU-bound PCIe lanes;
- add at least 2 more cores per CCD while retaining similar CCD TDP to 8 cores per CCD;
- bring back PCIe ports, since they are versatile, specify for motherboard makers to have more than just two expansion slots (1x PCIe 5.0 x16 + 2x PCIe 4.0 x4 + 1x PCIe 4.0 x 4 is ideal);
- lower native SATA ports, 2 are enough, I'd even prefer motherboards with no SATA support at all (PCIe ports can be converted into SATA ports with adaptor).

EDIT:
- make sure the mainstream mobos for Zen 6 are cheaper!

Maybe you should buy threadripper plattform, especially when you want more PCIE slots. Regardless in what shape. AMD needs to make a big difference between consumer cheap entry hardware and threadripper plattform. Or a second remote box over the network.

Please add your corrections.
I think the cpu socket pins definitions determine what can be "upgraded" or "changed".

People are already buying x870 mainboards although maybe better X670 mainboards are available.

--

I think ASMEDIA designed and makes the chipsets for the amd mainboards, e.g 2 pieces for x670 mainboards.
The usb 4 chip is most often also from ASMEDIA.
I think AMD does not have the knowledge or will to have usb4 in the chip. That will just drive the price up for any processor.

#27

Nhonho

AMD MUST to abandon the old idea of putting the memory controller (IMC) on the IO die and start putting it on the same die as the x86 cores to the latency of accessing the main RAM be the lowest possible.

Example:

#28

R0H1T

LittleBroThey say AM6 will come with DDR6.

Who's they?

NhonhoAMD MUST to abandon the old idea of putting the memory controller (IMC) on the IO die

Old really? Did you forget who had the first IMC probably ever?

#29

Dr. Dro

thesmokingmanI swear, their timings of these announcements is whacked. Right on the heels of the current release... hello?

Despite strong showing for Zen 5 3D in gaming, the architecture as a whole was not a very successful project in the consumer-side. The standard non-3D Zen 5 chips sold poorly in comparison to its predecessors. This is somewhat of a way to save face, saying that a better product is currently on-track for scheduled release. Having a sizable lead in gaming and consumer applications over Intel with the 9800X3D places them in a good position - chips are still a few years away and whoever would skip this, allegedly due to FOMO, are people who don't have money to afford the platform to begin with.

#30

Craptacular

R0H1TWho's they?

Anyone who has made this observation:
AM2 chipset supported DDR2
AM3 chipset supported both DDR2 and DDR3
AM4 chipset supported DDR4
AM5 chipset supported DDR5

I trust you can see the pattern.

#31

windwhirl

StimpsonJCatAM6 will be a great step up from high-end AM4, with a big +-50% perf uptick, and two more major architecture upgrades to look forward to, as well as decent DDR5 support, quad channel if we're really lucky.

Assuming AM6 won't be DDR6 exclusive. As for the quad channel bit, I'm thinking it will be unlikely, but we'll have to wait to see what happens with that. Though, DDR6 seems to come with four channels per module... so I guess you'll get your wish, just not in the way you expected :laugh:

R0H1TWho's they?

Look at AMD's sockets, man

AM2 = DDR2
AM3 = DDR3
AM4 = DDR4
AM5 = DDR5

AMD has always changed the socket when a new RAM standard came out.

As for DDR6, the spec is expected to be finalized either this year or the next, and products usually take a year and half or two years to start showing in the market in large enough quantities. So, 2027 for DDR6 is within expectations and would make sense if AMD decided to launch Zen6 on AM5, since there might not be enough of a DDR6 market at the time to try and sell Zen6 exclusively for an hypothetical AM6 socket

#32

R0H1T

If AMD is going to maintain compatibility with the old(er) chips then either they have to do dual memory support on zen6 or it will still be DDR5 ~ my bet's on the latter given DDR4 boards/chips are still selling well to this day!

CraptacularI trust you can see the pattern.

There's no pattern there, it just so happens that AMD needed to keep this going because they're the underdogs. Also who said anything about AM6 :wtf:

#33

freeagent

freeagentIts probably their way of saying, go on, buy that board for 950 beaver bucks.. plus tax.. it will last you a few years..

Look, I wasn't kidding lol.. I contemplated paying the 315 a month haha..

ASUS ROG Crosshair X870E Hero AMD X870E AM5 ATX Motherboard, Advanced AI PC Ready, 18+2+2 Power Stages, DDR5, PCIe® 5.0, 5X M.2, Wi-Fi 7, USB4®, AI Overclocking, Core Flex, PCIe Slot Q-Release Slim : Amazon.ca: Electronics

#34

LittleBro

_roman_Maybe you should buy threadripper plattform, especially when you want more PCIE slots. Regardless in what shape. AMD needs to make a big difference between consumer cheap entry hardware and threadripper plattform. Or a second remote box over the network.

Please add your corrections.
I think the cpu socket pins definitions determine what can be "upgraded" or "changed".

It's not about moving to Threadripper or needing more lanes. I remember x400 or x500 chipset (x = X or B) series motherboards had very good options in terms of PCIe ports. It became worse with x600 series and now with x800 it's terrible. Not everyone uses integrated LAN or audio solution. Now there are plenty 800 series boards that you can't fit those addin cards into.

I am happy owner of ASUS B550-E Gaming, it has a very well done PCIe ports layout.

I am perfectly fine with 24 PCIe Gen 5.0 lanes (16/8+8 for PEG) and 2x4 for NVMe drives. One fast drive for the OS, second for gaming.
Third M.2 in chipset-bound M.2 slot for data. I would not change socket, only upgrade CPU <> Chipset connection to Gen 5.0 x4, which does not need socket to be touched. That would allow for faster M.2 chipset-wise. It was already discussed here on TPU that Zen 5 already has PCIe Gen 5.0 support in terms of connectivity with chipset.

#35

qcmadness

Dr. DroDespite strong showing for Zen 5 3D in gaming, the architecture as a whole was not a very successful project in the consumer-side. The standard non-3D Zen 5 chips sold poorly in comparison to its predecessors. This is somewhat of a way to save face, saying that a better product is currently on-track for scheduled release. Having a sizable lead in gaming and consumer applications over Intel with the 9800X3D places them in a good position - chips are still a few years away and whoever would skip this, allegedly due to FOMO, are people who don't have money to afford the platform to begin with.

It is a failed architecture that it beats Apple M3 in FP performance.

#36

kapone32

How is this leak different than anything has done since AM4. People are so quick to forget that in 2024 we got brand new CPUs for AM4. AM5 will be no different. I will promise that the next boards for AM5 should correct the issue with X870E. If you don't want PCIe pay more and get a Mini ITX board or save money and get a Micro ATX. To pay what they want is ludicrous. Everything I have said about MBs was my position before the 9800X3D launch. Anything AMD X3D is way overpriced and sold out. I was blown away when I checked the price of the 7900X3D and it was $999 and sold out on Amazon and Newegg. At least Canada Computers only raised the price by $100 to $799. The 7800X3d is $20 less. We live in a strange time.

qcmadnessIt is a failed architecture that it beats Apple M3 in FP performance.

It is not a failed process but that is entirely narrative based. When X3D and Compelling APUs did not exist. Run of the mill CPUs were everything and as such it would be Cyrex vs Intel vs AMD or even IBM if you go back far enough. When Ryzen launched (I have siad this before) it was no different going from 1700X to 2600. Including the bump in Memory performance. Now you have APUs compelling enough that so many companies are making handhelds and Steam is making a real alternative to Windows plus it pushed the price of the 8700G out of HTPC territory. Then X3D became a thing and that feature that gave Intel the crown for having better single threaded performance became it's own animal. I remember people saying that X3D was not a big deal. F me X3D has been so successful that some of the staunchest Intel/Nvida fans on TPU now own X3D chips. TPU and other media sites need to change the way they review chips with this in mind. The future is Single Brand PCs though anyway. If Physx was anything to go by when Nvidia launches their CPU they will probably insert code to make it incompatible with AMD CPUs lol. The CPU Wars have been epic in this generation.

NhonhoAMD MUST to abandon the old idea of putting the memory controller (IMC) on the IO die and start putting it on the same die as the x86 cores to the latency of accessing the main RAM be the lowest possible.

Example:

Wait, are you saying you know more than AMD engineers? What is the problem? That the regular chips can't clock as high as the APUs?

#37

Dr. Dro

qcmadnessIt is a failed architecture that it beats Apple M3 in FP performance.

I'm not saying it's not good, quite the contrary. But the reviews were clear, unless AVX-512 happens to be involved, the gains over Zen 4 are nominal at best. There is also an architecture-wide regression in power consumption with the 9800X3D using as much as 80% more power than the 7800X3D, so it wasn't entirely a march forward. And it so happened to launch at higher price points as well, so Zen 4 (and in some cases Zen 3) remained attractive and arguably more desirable.

#38

Craptacular

R0H1TThere's no pattern there, it just so happens that AMD needed to keep this going because they're the underdogs. Also who said anything about AM6 :wtf:

Why isn't the below a pattern?

AM2 = DDR2
AM3 = DDR3
AM4 = DDR4
AM5 = DDR5

#39

Wirko

TumbleGeorgeI hope the socket AM5 has enough unused contact pads.

It doesn't. The map is here. There are no more than 10 unused pads (light grey, marked RSVD) and even those don't form a single group, they're scattered around.

#40

windwhirl

R0H1TAlso who said anything about AM6 :wtf:

#41

TumbleGeorge

WirkoIt doesn't. The map is here. There are no more than 10 unused pads (light grey, marked RSVD) and even those don't form a single group, they're scattered around.

I don't know what the white squares are without mark. But I see some over-secured, too many of the same function. Perhaps some of them can be redirected to a different function?

#42

Frick

Fishfaced Nincompoop

StimpsonJCatAM6 will be a great step up from high-end AM4, with a big +-50% perf uptick, and two more major architecture upgrades to look forward to, as well as decent DDR5 support, quad channel if we're really lucky.

AM6 will be what AM5 was hyped to be.

For reference we're currently in the Zen2? stage if we're comparing (maybe even Zen+). Meaning you should compare the 9900X to the 3900X at best, maybe even the 2900X.

#43

AnotherReader

Dr. DroI'm not saying it's not good, quite the contrary. But the reviews were clear, unless AVX-512 happens to be involved, the gains over Zen 4 are nominal at best. There is also an architecture-wide regression in power consumption with the 9800X3D using as much as 80% more power than the 7800X3D, so it wasn't entirely a march forward. And it so happened to launch at higher price points as well, so Zen 4 (and in some cases Zen 3) remained attractive and arguably more desirable.

There's no regression in power consumption at similar clocks. It also improves performance in regular integer code.

#44

R0H1T

CraptacularWhy isn't the below a pattern?

AM2 = DDR2
AM3 = DDR3
AM4 = DDR4
AM5 = DDR5

Ok I get it what you're saying, I thought you initially said zen6 was gonna be on AM6 :shadedshu:

windwhirl

It's still speculation as of now, so I won't put too much weight into it. DDR5 will last for a long time!

#45

Dr. Dro

AnotherReaderThere's no regression in power consumption at similar clocks. It also improves performance in regular integer code.

I mean, that's the same argument we've seen a while ago "Raptor Lake actually isn't that power inefficient, you can lower the frequencies to reduce power consumption by a ton"; except that both stock and to get all the juice it'll squeeze, you have to make these concessions. Stock for stock IMO counts arguably more than these technicalities in the context of a review and the "standard settings" vast majority of buyers stick to, and they did go ham there a little.

#46

qlum

No zen 6, in 2025, doesn't mean there won't be anything new. As it stands IO die currently bottlenecking the core, so a refresh with a new io die, and some other improvements could very well be a thing next year.

Plug in an npu, and you got something that makes investors happy.

#47

AnotherReader

Dr. DroI mean, that's the same argument we've seen a while ago "Raptor Lake actually isn't that power inefficient, you can lower the frequencies to reduce power consumption by a ton"; except that both stock and to get all the juice it'll squeeze, you have to make these concessions. Stock for stock IMO counts arguably more than these technicalities in the context of a review and the "standard settings" vast majority of buyers stick to, and they did go ham there a little.

I agree that stock settings are what matter. I was just pointing out that the architecture is actually more efficient than Zen 4, but probably stung by the Zen 5% idiocy, AMD chose to clock these high.

#48

Vayra86

R0H1TThat doesn't sound right, didn't AMD claim (announce?) shorter gaps between major launches some time back so the next one is ~2.5 years :wtf:

Maybe they want to 'focus on midrange' first hm? :rolleyes:

I think they're not in a hurry seeing where Intel is going.

Dr. DroI mean, that's the same argument we've seen a while ago "Raptor Lake actually isn't that power inefficient, you can lower the frequencies to reduce power consumption by a ton"; except that both stock and to get all the juice it'll squeeze, you have to make these concessions. Stock for stock IMO counts arguably more than these technicalities in the context of a review and the "standard settings" vast majority of buyers stick to, and they did go ham there a little.

I agree, stock is stock, if AMD wants to place the product as it is, that's what it is. Its the same story on Intel. 'But you can undervolt' ... sure. You can. Until you can't. And you never paid for the performance of last gen clock for clock either; you paid for a 9800X3D with the performance it says it has at the power it uses.

#49

john_

windwhirlSo, 2027 for DDR6 is within expectations and would make sense if AMD decided to launch Zen6 on AM5, since there might not be enough of a DDR6 market at the time to try and sell Zen6 exclusively for an hypothetical AM6 socket

AMD was usually waiting for Intel to popularize the new memory standard before jumping in. They where always 1-2 years behind. I think AMD will come out with a DDR6 platform AFTER Intel. Assuming Intel exists in 2027 as an x86 CPU designer.

#50

Wirko

LittleBroAMD was strict about X870(E) having USB4 support. ASMedia USB4 controller (ASM4242) consumes four PCIe Gen 4.0/5.0 lanes (two per USB4 port). There was really no other choice for mobo makers but to implement it CPU-wise, since it could not be possible chipset-wise. So AMD was not so strict, but there was no other choice.

AMD demands that the USB4 controller be connected to the CPU, no the chipset. But they obviously allowed a deviation that MSI implemented. It looks like some dirty trick without a PCIe switch. But whatever it is, other manufacturers could do that too.

LittleBroAgree, but I think it's vital for AMD to finally introduce more cores per CCD with AM5 and not wait for AM6.

To me, a logical solution would be to design two different chiplets with a different number of big cores. 6 and 12, for example. AMD thinks otherwise, it seems.

john_Assuming Intel exists in 2027 as an x86 CPU designer.

At the very least, Intel will be a neutron star, after having absorbed all the heavy dollars and collapsing into a two-room office.

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AMD "Zen 6" to Retain Socket AM5 for Desktops, 2026-27 Product Launches

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