Windows 11 General Discussion

[Onasi]

@lexluthermiester
Some context? But yeah, I am unaware of any changes from 10 to 11 that would affect performance overlays. Worked fine when last I checked. At least the RTSS one.

 

[lexluthermiester]

@lexluthermiester
Some context? But yeah, I am unaware of any changes from 10 to 11 that would affect performance overlays. Worked fine when last I checked. At least the RTSS one.

Follow the conversation link in the quotes. Conversation started in another thread and was going off topic, so I brought it here where it could continue on-topic.

 

[Onasi]

@lexluthermiester
Yup, did so. I am not sure what to say. If we talk about Task Manager, the only thing I know for a fact it isn’t great at is frequency reporting for Zen CPUs since it doesn’t understand the whole “race to idle” and sleeping cores behavior of Zen boosting and the number it outputs is all over the place and rarely has anything to do with reality if compared to, say, HWMon. But the usage it tracks just fine, both per core and averaged out. So do various overlays.

 

[Macro Device]

Link for citation or it didn't happen.

Redirecting

Just one of a gajillion examples. Why people are so keen on defending rubbish software, I'm not sure. Yes, it might be outdated as of 24H2 (this is the only version I've never tested) but both 22H2 and 23H2 had this bug. And the very fact it reports incorrect information and that didn't get addressed for more than 2 years (despite it being blatant they must fix it with the day 0 patch: M$ aren't exactly a small indie company, they MUST deliver) screams insanely bad quality.

W11 also introduced a truckload of stability issues. Some RAM sticks that worked perfectly fine under any other OS became completely unusable under W11. GPU drivers crashing (at least on AMD side) happen way more often. Not to mention how stupid the new context menu is. Everything useful is hidden behind the "Advanced options" wall. Luckily one can bring the old context menu back via registry changes but anyway. They also murdered the Paint. It doesn't work anymore, only fruitlessly tries to. New fonts are ugly, ClearType occasionally bugs out, too. Input lag has also increased.

Only the scaling works somewhat nicer on W11 but still very far from optimal.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Why people are so keen on defending rubbish software, I'm not sure.

It's called merit. If you knew me you would know that I am no fan of microsoft. However, I don't jump to conclusions or judgments without evidence to support same. And there is a number of reasons people like myself are, carefully, ditching Win10 for 11. 11 can be debloated just as well as 10.

W11 also introduced a truckload of stability issues.

I've been using Windows 11 since it was in beta, stablity is NOT something I would ding it for. Spying on user activities? Sure. Installing sh!t behind ones back? Sure. Failing to allow for uninstall of unwanted preinstalled crap? Sure. But Stability issues? Moose muffins! Stability and improved compatibility has been one of Win11's most excellent aspects!

Some RAM sticks that worked perfectly fine under any other OS became completely unusable under W11.

More moose muffins! I have never seen this and I run a PC shop.

Only the scaling works somewhat nicer on W11 but still very far from optimal.

That is a red herring argument. No one gets scaling right. Not microsoft, not Apple, not Google and not even the Linux community. Everyone's way of doing it has one issue or another. No one is perfect.

Yup, did so. I am not sure what to say. If we talk about Task Manager, the only thing I know for a fact it isn’t great at is frequency reporting for Zen CPUs since it doesn’t understand the whole “race to idle” and sleeping cores behavior of Zen boosting and the number it outputs is all over the place and rarely has anything to do with reality if compared to, say, HWMon. But the usage it tracks just fine, both per core and averaged out. So do various overlays.

True, its not perfect. But it's not perfect in Windows 10 either. You have to select the "Change Graph to" -> "Logical Processors" instead of "Overall Utilization" to make it show accurate data. This is common knowledge..

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

My woes continue on my work PC. A few more issues I’ve encountered recently. Hit Start then start typing. Search result window is entirely blank, other than some version code in the lower right corner. This goes on for at least 20-30 seconds. Not sure if it’s pinging Bing and can’t get through, but I’m searching for a local file anyway. Reboot fixed it, it seems. Also, I’ve opened settings before only to be greeted with a big window with nothing but the settings icon in the middle. Stays up like that for a good 15 seconds, well long enough to screenshot it. Calculator does this sometimes too. I don’t know what the deal is, as sometimes it feels like a UI bug or maybe a driver issue, but I have no control over my PC. I’d assume it’s running more stable branches of code and drivers, but who knows. It’s not even like I have excessive up times, rarely is it more than 3 days before a shutdown. I do think fastboot is partially to blame, but I can’t disable it. Anyone else experience these sorts of UI issues?

 

[lexluthermiester]

Hit Start then start typing. Search result window is entirely blank, other than some version code in the lower right corner.

Anyone else experience these sorts of UI issues?

Not a clue. I use OpenShell and have the default StartMenu disabled.

 

[Macro Device]

Stability and improved compatibility has been one of Win11's most excellent aspects!

Even if it works fine on your machine it doesn't mean it works fine in general.

More moose muffins! I have never seen this and I run a PC shop.

Too small of a PC shop, then. My PC is an LGA1700 machine with non-noname DDR4 and it spouts countless RAM errors when I run W11. At JEDEC speeds, mind me. Runs XMP perfectly fine in any other OS. You might call me a chimp with a grenade launcher and blame me for incorrect installation of W11 but first, it wouldn't be true, and second, it's just your denial. I tried both vanilla installation with all TPM2.0 being enabled and using the original .ISO from the M$ web site, also having used a legit key for activation, and "dirty" installations. Completely different methods, absolutely identical insane RAM behaviour which I only managed to reproduce in Windows 8.1 in some weird application at >700 MHz higher clocks.

That is a red herring argument. No one gets scaling right. Not microsoft, not Apple, not Google and not even the Linux community. Everyone's way of doing it has one issue or another. No one is perfect.

If you actually read my comment you'd realise I never called anyone out with doing it right, I just pointed at the only thing that works better on W11 than it does on W10. THE ONLY ONE. 2.5/10 horrible VS 2/10 unacceptable. Oh, and it's a smidgey chance W11 works better with P+E core situation but c'mon, it's still suboptimal to put it mildly.

11 can be debloated just as well as 10.

To some wildly arguable extent. With much more effort included. And much less guarantee.

I will only ditch W10 when it becomes as deranged as using W7 today. Now, it's a totally viable and time tested OS. Unlike W11, which tends to just refuse to work on some machines for no apparent reason.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Even if it works fine on your machine it doesn't mean it works fine in general.

Except that i own a shop and work on dozens of PCs daily. Windows 11 is stable.

Too small of a PC shop, then.

Maybe. It's possible that your claim of nonsense. Far more likely in fact.

 

[Dr. Dro]

My opinion is that Windows 11's biggest problem is its nonsensical, unfinished shell and frankly disjointed user experience. Microsoft UX designers are actual morons and they've been making it repeatedly worse since Windows 8 because oh my effing god we need to change for the sake of change!!!!!!!! - I strongly suspect there might be a culture of "toxic positivity" going on within the Windows development team because clearly, whoever seems to be in charge clearly hasn't stopped to tell these people to back off. Some heads have to roll, some people need to get fired, and they're not; Microsoft urgently needs to revisit Windows Vista and 7 to see what makes them look so pretty without losing any usability, and bring that to Windows 12.

As to what we can do to remedy the situation, the Stardock Object Desktop tools - specifically Start11 v2 and Fences 5 go great lengths towards "fixing" a lot of what's wrong with Windows 11's UI. Disabling the new context menu is also a must-do tweak, using Winaero Tweaker to trim the bloat, restore a few things that were moved or removed and you can actually get a great thing going. Other free options like RetroBar or Open Shell are also viable towards customizing your OS back into a semblance of normality. I think mine is actually looking great, and it behaves as you would expect

I will only ditch W10 when it becomes as deranged as using W7 today. Now, it's a totally viable and time tested OS. Unlike W11, which tends to just refuse to work on some machines for no apparent reason.

Lex has a good point. Underneath the (clearly unfinished and problematic) stock UI/UX, Windows 11 is more refined and a better developed OS. If you're willing to put the time (and perhaps a small bit of money) into getting this sorted out, you will have a better experience than you would by just sticking to Windows 10. However, these things should be default and come as part of the standard experience with Windows, which clearly isn't the case - Microsoft is tripling down on everything we've come to hate lately, and even began taking steps towards making sure we can't fix their messes. 24H2 LTSC might be a landmark - anything past this smells and looks like no man's land, hopefully Nvidia starts investing in their Linux stack soon...

 

[Macro Device]

If you're willing to put the time (and perhaps a small bit of money) into getting this sorted out, you will have a better experience than you would by just sticking to Windows 10.

I already did waste ~75 hours troubleshooting this inadequate thing. This amounts to M$ owing me my licence key back plus, if we speak minimal wage in the US where the M$ are from, about 500 USD. I don't wanna buy new equipment only because for some "screw you in particular" reason my stuff won't work in W11. I don't wanna spend more time working this around. I'm done doing other people's job.

Windows 11 is more refined and a better developed OS

In what sense exactly? It even manges to be slower than W10. Which is an achievement in itself.

hopefully Nvidia starts investing in their Linux stack soon...

This will take at least a dozen years before it leaves the pre-alpha stage I'm afraid. Even if they start, like, yesterday.

It's possible that your claim of nonsense. Far more likely in fact.

Since you're a fan of calling me a nonsense producer perhaps it's now your turn to prove I'm the one. I already listed both my opinion and proofs to it and you still are in denial.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I already did waste ~75 hours troubleshooting this inadequate thing. This amounts to M$ owing me my licence key back plus, if we speak minimal wage in the US where the M$ are from, about 500 USD. I don't wanna buy new equipment only because for some "screw you in particular" reason my stuff won't work in W11. I don't wanna spend more time working this around. I'm done doing other people's job.

Your problem with your personal hardware is no ones problem but the hardware maker and you. The folks at microsoft have no involvement.

In what sense exactly? It even manges to be slower than W10. Which is an achievement in itself.

Not in my testing nor the testing that many, MANY others have done. Your assertion does not hold water.

Since you're a fan of calling me a nonsense producer perhaps it's now your turn to prove I'm the one. I already listed both my opinion and proofs to it and you still are in denial.

You posted a dubious link to a help request that requires a microsoft login to view. That isn't "proof". You're the only one who's made these claims. The onus is on you to show evidence and "prove" up.

24H2 LTSC might be a landmark

Maybe. Testing will prove that one way or the other..

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Too small of a PC shop, then. My PC is an LGA1700 machine with non-noname DDR4 and it spouts countless RAM errors when I run W11. At JEDEC speeds, mind me. Runs XMP perfectly fine in any other OS. You might call me a chimp with a grenade launcher and blame me for incorrect installation of W11 but first, it wouldn't be true, and second, it's just your denial. I tried both vanilla installation with all TPM2.0 being enabled and using the original .ISO from the M$ web site, also having used a legit key for activation, and "dirty" installations. Completely different methods, absolutely identical insane RAM behaviour which I only managed to reproduce in Windows 8.1 in some weird application at >700 MHz higher clocks.

Isn’t there an advanced memory security setting in, er, Settings? I forget the name of it, but it’s enabled on 11 by default but not on 10. Might be the cause of the issues.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Isn’t there an advanced memory security setting in, er, Settings? I forget the name of it, but it’s enabled on 11 by default but not on 10. Might be the cause of the issues.

Are you talking about Core Isolation? That's a security setting and is easily disabled. Shouldn't cause instabilities at all.

 

[jarablue]

Rumba dumba.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Rumba dumba.

Well THAT was random!!

 

[Shrek]

Preview updates on a Monday? is that normal?

 

[Dr. Dro]

In what sense exactly? It even manges to be slower than W10. Which is an achievement in itself.

This will take at least a dozen years before it leaves the pre-alpha stage I'm afraid. Even if they start, like, yesterday.

Once all the security features like core/memory isolation and virtualized kernel are off, W11 performs the exact same... but yeah, I don't expect that driver maturity on Linux will catch up to Windows any time soon

 

[lexluthermiester]

Preview updates on a Monday? is that normal?

I might have missed something.

 

[Shrek]

My bad (again), I assumed

Rumba dumba.

was in response to
KB5043178 Windows 11 Cumulative Update Preview build 26100.1882 (24H2) on Copilot+ PCs - Sept. 30 | Windows 11 Forum (elevenforum.com)

 

[windwhirl]

Preview updates on a Monday? is that normal?

It's unusual.

I'm annoyed I haven't gotten any Canary channel releases in a month, lol

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Are you talking about Core Isolation? That's a security setting and is easily disabled. Shouldn't cause instabilities at all.

Yeah, memory isolation. I've heard of folks disabling it for games. It's just another thing that's worth a try.

 

[Onasi]

was in response to
KB5043178 Windows 11 Cumulative Update Preview build 26100.1882 (24H2) on Copilot+ PCs - Sept. 30 | Windows 11 Forum (elevenforum.com)

Seems to be a version of KB5043145, but for 24H2, which still seemingly exists in a Schrodinger state of not being listed on the MS update release list changelog as a version, but apparently also being sorta-kinda out of preview as a release for SOME Copilot+ PCs? But also only Allah knows when it comes to regular 23H2 installations as an update, except that it apparently won’t be October?

Update: Actually, my 23H2 just got the KB5043145 I was talking about. Despite it being marked as a 26 of September update on the MS log. So yeah, a KB on Monday. I… guess something was scuffed with it so they delayed it?

 

[Dr. Dro]

Seems to be a version of KB5043145, but for 24H2, which still seemingly exists in a Schrodinger state of not being listed on the MS update release list changelog as a version, but apparently also being sorta-kinda out of preview as a release for SOME Copilot+ PCs? But also only Allah knows when it comes to regular 23H2 installations as an update, except that it apparently won’t be October?

Update: Actually, my 23H2 just got the KB5043145 I was talking about. Despite it being marked as a 26 of September update on the MS log. So yeah, a KB on Monday. I… guess something was scuffed with it so they delayed it?

24H2 is being released to GA today

Microsoft's big Windows 11 2024 Update is now available, here's what you need to know

Windows 11 version 24H2 is now generally available. These are the biggest new features!

www.windowscentral.com

 

[Onasi]

@Dr. Dro
Microsoft: “24H2 probably won’t be rolling out to GA in October”