EarlZNone of the soundcards that people compare with are even close to perfect, why bother bitching and moan about it ?

pjladyfoxThis coming from the person who has the little Creative sticker in the bottom of every post. Note here that you're the one that came out swinging on this one not me claiming that I said something I did not and then went on your little "Creative can do no wrong" tirade accusing those of us who have had nothing but issues as crackpots or liars. :wtf:

The sad part about this entire exchange between the two of us is if you had condenced the last two paragraphs of this post into your inital reply, instead of resorting to "Creative can do no wrong" speech, things never really would have gotten this far. Heck, I would have THANKED YOU for the information and we could have moved onwards.

Again, I never said that other companies were innocent of the problem which is why I'm not using a C-Media sound card in my gaming system. I got fed up with the money grubbing over an issue that should have been fixed after it was first found under Vista. Onboard audio, while not ideal, at least works every single time I use it without a hiccup or complaint.

That would most likely explain why the onboard Realtek audio, while not the best, tends to work more often than the $200+ dollar sound card I've got sitting in a box that I'm trying to get rid of since I'm tired of dealing with it.

For my part, if I came off in a way that you took offense to that was not my intention and was rather me just venting over what appeared to be yet another money grab IMHO by Creative. However, that said, you really need to dial back on your rhetoric where you give the impression that everyone should bow at the altar of Creative and that they can do no wrong since that is VERY far from the truth and you admitted as such yourself.

At this point, I think I've pretty much said my peace about all of this. This is going to be one of those situations where I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

Peace?

simlariverCreative sound card used to be great when hardware acceleration was the way to go and EAX was the only surround sound processing technology worth looking at. Heck, it was designed specifically for gaming.

But now, Creative is just the shadow of a formerly glorious company that capitalize on previously relevant technology and reputation, even tho they are no longer offering anything else that bloated pub-infested drivers and gimmic made-up technologies. (THX TruStudio PC Crystalizer ????? it's what, 6-8 years old technology re-branded again ? They really used to ship great hardware, but now, they looks like they reduced the engineering department by 5 times and boosted the PR department 10 fold.

I know some people have problems with competing technologies (asus and other c-media based cards) but I can't help but point that most of those people might just have a code-18 problem*.

Seriously, don't buy that creative crap. I am kinda a xonar fanboy and a creative hater, but that doesn't mean I am wrong and my point is not valid, does it ?

* The problem is located 18 inches in front of the screen.

FreedomEclipsecorrect none of the cards are perfect but each of the cards dominates & totally rules what field they specialize in

Xonar - For Music & Movies - Sound amazing even on the lower end cards such as a DX

XFi - For Gaming (no card can beat an XFi when it comes to gaming. but like everyone says. EAX is dead/dying so theres no telling how long they will hold that crown for)

so its upto you how you want to see it.

IMHO if Asus started putting more effort into their soundcard department - their cards would totally run rings around XFi's - but such as it is none of their staff visit the forums, so trying to give some consumer related feedback to them is going to be difficult unless you go through support channels which i had heard a some good things & also bad things about.

If Asus really put some effort in - they could totally wipe the XFi in games.

EarlZI would be very much interested in seeing Asus beat Creative in their own game even to the point that creative might shutdown its sound card department.. Im not really an Asus fan but a competition on the market would be nice!

FreedomEclipseI dont think Creative would be pushed that far back to shutdown their department. theyve been in the game far far far too long to even think about doing that. & like you said competition is good right? & Creative is the big dog of PC Audio & Asus has emerged as a direct competitor as they are bigger then most other manufacturers who do PC Audio. theres quite a few smaller companies that dabble in the field but their main focus is on other parts of the market.


.:EDIT:.

Just wait until EAX is dropped by studios in favour of OpenAL - then the real games will start because Creative will have to come up with a new gameplan because EAX is no longer a selling point for their cards.

Robert-The-RamblerCreative Labs is the company who has pushed the OpenAL initiative for Vista and 7 since they need it to make their hardware work the best. They want OpenAL and they have embraced it. OpenAL helps EAX actually work. :)

FreedomEclipsecorrect none of the cards are perfect but each of the cards dominates & totally rules what field they specialize in

Xonar - For Music & Movies - Sound amazing even on the lower end cards such as a DX

XFi - For Gaming (no card can beat an XFi when it comes to gaming. but like everyone says. EAX is dead/dying so theres no telling how long they will hold that crown for)

so its upto you how you want to see it.

IMHO if Asus started putting more effort into their soundcard department - their cards would totally run rings around XFi's - but such as it is none of their staff visit the forums, so trying to give some consumer related feedback to them is going to be difficult unless you go through support channels which i had heard a some good things & also bad things about.

If Asus really put some effort in - they could totally wipe the XFi in games.

RejZoRWhy do ppl think everything revolves around EAX ? CMSS works in every game, even those that use proprietary audio engines and haven't even heard of EAX. It bumps up the way how 360° degree spin renders the audio that is static. Or when you're stationary and sound revolves around you. With CMSS, 3D sound positioning is just staggering. And then there are MacroFX and Elevation filter, enhancing the way you hear close sounds and the way they sound when they are above/below you or when they are behind you. This also works in every game. Cars passing you by never sound this incredible, rockets flying near your head. And Elevation filter gives you ability to better define whether your enemy is below or above you. This gives you perfectly legal improvement in gaming if you can properly define where your enemies are without need to use wallhacks and other similar stuff. I remember the days when i was playing in a clan and was constantly accused of using wallhacks. Where in reality, i was just paying lots of attention to sounds and could prepare myself even before they run around the corner. Because i could hear their footsteps a kilometer away...

EAX just adds value to all this. If you hear some sounds coming from a sewer and you know there is one up ahead, you'll be able to prepare sooner for enemies. Same goes if sound is restricted by walls, you can again notice the difference in reverberation and read where the sound is happening inside the game environment. Sound is a thing that everyone take for granted but not many actually take time to immerse themself on this level of gaming. Ok, so they hear gun fire, but they don't seem to care where it is coming from and how exactly it sounds (and what that means for you).

RejZoRAddiction? How would it feel if your real living room would sound like a sewer and a stadium like a living room?

RejZoRYou have to play few proper EAX 4.0 HD games or EAX 5.0 to really appreciate what EAX has to offer. And you have to listen for real, not just listen like most ppl do.
You'll see how detailed and rich sound really is and how much you're actually missing by not using EAX.

RejZoRAnd it's funny when you're talking of dropping EAX in favor of OpenAL. Creative Labs developed OpenAL as open audio standard. EAX 4.0 HD and above runs on OpenAL only and OpenAL isn't an audio library by itself, EAX however is, with reverberation, sound reflection, distortions and so on. So if you want a game to support EAX 4.0 or later, it has to work on OpenAL. You don't seem to fully understand the whole audio thing...

RejZoROnly issue is that EAX above version 2.0 is exclusive to Creative Labs cards (or 3rd party powered by X-Fi chips).

eidairaman1explain why Vista and 7 Require alchemy then

FreedomEclipseId love it - I have owned 3 Creative cards since & they have been great until they either died of got sold off



have you tried using a Xonar for gaming?? they sound more amazing then creatives when the DS3DGX engine decides to work. also the parts such as the opamps & other stuff are generally alot better then that of creatives. a Xonar paired with a set of Logitech Z5500 = Win




your right - I dont understand it much other then waning support for EAX. So I admit & apologise for my mistakes of not researching first before commenting.




& thats why EAX is being dropped - studios dont want to pay licensing fees & royalties etc etc etc to Creative.

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Just because i dont run a Creative card doesnt mean i cant be immirsed in sound when it comes to gaming. Xonars Support EAX 2.0 but emulate high versions of EAX albeit with some teething issues but I assure you it still sounds awesome when it decides to work.

Have you tried a Xonar?? If not I really recommend that you give the DX, D2X a go. they are also great for movies & music.

pr0n InspectorATI "soundcards" are purely digital.

R_1So, buy an audio receiver. It will sound a lot better than SB.

imperialreignIf my posts came across the wrong way, then I apologize - I tend to have a very "straight forward" approach with my posts . . .

It's not that I don't believe people have occasional problems, I know for a fact they will . . . no matter what audio card they decide to purchase. The equipment itself is very picky and sensitive; TBH, it's easier today to deal with issues, than it was 10-15 years ago.

What tends to grate me, though, is simply when people start accusing a hardware manufacturer for their problems, and many times their accusations come with little knowledge of what's going on. It's hatred and bashing being fueled by ignorance. Sad as it is, audio hardware is probably one of the least understood pieces of hardware in one's system . . . but, considering how few people grasp audio hardware, there's even more that simply believe it should just work when installed - and they run across other's "bashing" posts, and pick up the same sentiments . . . even if they've never used that brand of hardware . . .

Big reason, IMHO, why there are so many Creative "bashing" threads out there. It doesn't typically get bad here at TPU, but, every news thread (like this one) is like a magnet for those types of comments . . .

I try not to come across like I'm "attacking" or singling anyone out, but that can be hard to do sometimes, especially considering my general posting style . . . again, I didn't intend to come across the wrong way, my apologies.

imperialreignWell, other hardware manufacturers have let things continue on as well, although Creative tend to do it a bit more (considering their larger line of hardware offering) . . . it's sad, and a PITA for the un-informed consuer, but not much we can do about it (aside from staying informed).

The reason the onboard always works perfectly without hiccups has to do with how it's integrated - both at the hardware level, and the drivers with the OS. Because of it's integration with the motherboard, the OS can simply access it, the chipset drivers come a lot into play as well. The whole means of hardware access becomes even more muddied once Vista and OS7 come into play . . . but, the kernel design is a big reason why onboard solutions haven't had the same issues as dedicated cards with Vista and OS7, i.e. the lack of multi-channel output, intermittent switching from multi-channel to 2-channel, poor down and upmixing, etc.

It's frustrating for us that are heavy into audio, because we know it's not an issue with the audio hardware itself, but the majority of the time stemming from the limitations of the OS. The average user, though, doesn't know this, nor realize it.

imperialreignBy all means - I've never been one to hold a grudge against others, most of the regulars can easily tell you that. Although I do like a good debate, I try to keep things as level headed as possible (hard to do sometimes :p).

Again, I apologize if I can across a bit too aggressive - it's not that I'm that pro-Creative, I have no problems recommending competing hardware to other users when it would better suit their needs . . . hell, I fully recognize Creative's support can be a bit lacking at times - that's the whole reason why I had started the X-Fi Support thread here . . . they have their pros and cons; it's simply that too many users are mis-informed or don't have enough knowledge to draw proper conclusions, and there's already too much skewed info being spread (quite a lot in this thread alone), which only further adds to the confusion.

Hopefully, some of the info I've passed along, though, has not fallen on deaf ears - it'd be nice to think that perhaps other users have found some of the info helpful or informative.

Either way, best of luck with whatever audio solution you do decide to go with in the future, and as always, I'm willing to answer any audio related questions, no matter what hardware you use. :toast:

Wile EBecause it's for converting the old DirectX EAX calls to OpenAL, so we get hardware acceleration. DirectX doesn't allow direct access to the audio DSP in Vista and 7 anymore, thus the reason OpenAL and ALchemy came to be.

Check out some of the Guru3d reviews of sound cards, the X-Fi based cards use far less cpu to do the same amount of work.

Wile EBecause it's for converting the old DirectX EAX calls to OpenAL, so we get hardware acceleration.

Check out some of the Guru3d reviews of sound cards, the X-Fi based cards use far less cpu to do the same amount of work.

pjladyfoxI can fully understand your frustration and respect it since I'm pretty much the same way. It's one of the reasons why I tend not to get into most conversations unless I've had some personal experience with the subject matter.

In this case, you are probably one of the few that I've ever dealt with on this subject that seems to have more knowledge than most which is why I had my initial suspicions that you were part of Creative either from a support or other aspect. And I'm sure it's that impression, along with your approach, which triggered my "too close for missiles, switching to guns" reaction.

You are right in that sound cards today are MUCH easier to deal with than the first Ad Lib or Sound Blaster was. However, at least with the earlier cards once you got them fixed they tended to stay that way and you had a lot more control over the environment that they were functioning in. Today, it's almost like going back to the early days of sound where nothing really works quite right and hours are lost trying to fix a mirad of problems that never existed before. :banghead:

Tue on all counts and, in this particular case, there is a lot of shared blame to go around on this. Back when Microsoft first announced Vista they made it pretty clear that DirectSound was going to go away as part of their goal to remove driver instability as an issue. The fact that Creative, C-Media, and Realtek all just kind of seemingly stuck their collective heads in the sand until it was too late made a bad situation even worse.

So, here we are, four years after the disappearance of DirectSound and we STILL do not have a decent sound card that supports OpenAL via hardware beyond the cobbled X-Fi series. Much less one that removes the other miriad of issues tied to older DirectSound games not working correctly. :(

Oh, rest assured the last couple of posts that you have made on this topic have been VERY enlightening to me in regards to this topic. The only fustration I have right now is that now that I know more about how and what is involved in a lot of the issues I was dealing with on the X-Fi appear to be no closer to being solved than they were 3 years ago. If one company could design a soundcard that fully supported OpenAL in hardware, was able to emulate DirectSound either via software or other means, and did not hit the PCI-bus so hard to the point of saturating the bus (mainly for those older systems that do not have PCI-Express) I'd be the first one in line to plop down $200+ for it.

Until then, I'm going to have to give the Xonar DX or older C-Media 8770 sound cards like the HT Omega a closer look since I'm really getting tired of the humming I hear in my headphones from EM noise.

FreedomEclipseId love it - I have owned 3 Creative cards since & they have been great until they either died of got sold off



have you tried using a Xonar for gaming?? they sound more amazing then creatives when the DS3DGX engine decides to work. also the parts such as the opamps & other stuff are generally alot better then that of creatives. a Xonar paired with a set of Logitech Z5500 = Win




your right - I dont understand it much other then waning support for EAX. So I admit & apologise for my mistakes of not researching first before commenting.




& thats why EAX is being dropped - studios dont want to pay licensing fees & royalties etc etc etc to Creative.

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Just because i dont run a Creative card doesnt mean i cant be immirsed in sound when it comes to gaming. Xonars Support EAX 2.0 but emulate high versions of EAX albeit with some teething issues but I assure you it still sounds awesome when it decides to work.

Have you tried a Xonar?? If not I really recommend that you give the DX, D2X a go. they are also great for movies & music.

ToTTenTranzlol, of course. Everyone should just get a 7.1 HDMI receiver and a set of analog speakers just to have sound in their PCs.


Ridiculous.

RejZoRYou can laugh all you want but it DOES make quite some difference. And you have to decide what's your top priority. For gaming, X-Fi is still hard to beat. All the small gizmos and gadgeds that make 3D sound positioning a true masterpiece experience. But it sounds kinda flat for music. On the other hand, ASUS Xonar STX offers superior music quality, but has quite some problems with games. Sure, when it works, it's great. But when it doesn't, it's just bad.
I've had Xtreme Music and i was quite satisfied with it. No driver issues (i used only Console Launcher and drivers, no other crap) and it worked perfectly on all systems. So, if i decide for X-Fi HD gaming experience for some reason, i'd pick it up without much thinking. But since i don't play that much games anymore i'll stick with STX.

ToTTenTranzWhat he said.

Creative would actually rejoice at the sight of every game using OpenAL for sound libraries instead of DirectX. OpenAL supports audio acceleration hardware, DirectX doesn't.

R_1Well, not everyone should get HDMI receiver, but only those who are wiling to spend +300$ on audio part of their PCs. Will ask you a question : what kind of DSP can we find in ASUS Xonar Essence STX? Is it a very inexpensive C-Media chip? May tell you that similar C-Media revisions can be found on 12 year old audio card for 10$ (new) or integrated in some ancient PIII motherboards. All the sound magic is happening in ASUS Xonar-s analog part. This is the place where HDMI receiver excels.