newtekie1I'm sure just as legitimate as the problems people had with Starforce and Safedisc...

Care to give some examples of the legitimate problems you've had with Tages and how you determined exactly they was caused by Tages.

Care to give a single example of a game that is not subject to piracy as a result of the DRM?

mostly the same problems that you get with punkbuster, when disc versions are different than online versions, but it's updater was faulty so you had to manually look for the updates for specific games. ridiculous.

the big one though, was the witcher - awesome game - but on first install tages broke. i was unable to play x3 & tc OR witcher until i reinstalled my os, etc. it was specifically a tages error and the only connection between the games was tages.

i'm glad you've got moral superiority on everyone though newt, otherwise i might think you were a bit of an ass.

newtekie1Oh no, not Starforce or Tages, both of those cause everyone's computer that install it to instantly crash, the CD/DVD to explode in the drive, the motherboard to fry, and the tires to go flat on their car!

You may have said that sarcastically, but it still gets across nicely how sh*tty these DRM schemes are, lol. Don't forget the spare tyre. ;)

Good news.

Mr McCCare to give a single example of a game that is not subject to piracy as a result of the DRM?

Since DRM isn't there to completely stop piracy, that would be a pointless question to ask. DRM does its job. It prevents Joe Everyman from copying the disc and handing it out to his friends, and it does a fine job at doing that. If you want some examples of games where DRM was very sucessful at this, look at Batman:AA. There wasn't a proper crack out for a good couple weeks after the game was launched, and this resulting in many people(like myself) to just go buy the game.

So my question to you again, is do you care to give some specific examples of legitimate problems you've had with Tages and how exactly you came to the conclusion that Tages was at fault. You made the accusation, you have to prove it.

qubitYou may have said that sarcastically, but it still gets across nicely how sh*tty these DRM schemes are, lol. Don't forget the spare tyre. ;)

No, it gets across nicely how people will seek a scape goat to blame their problems on even if they have no real tangible link between the problem and what they say caused it. And what I always find funny(or disturbing really) is that the same problems constantly get blamed on DRM software over and over again, each new DRM scheme that comes to light always gets blamed for the same old issues. I really don't think that every DRM that has been popular on PCs has caused CDs to explode in the drives, yet I see that blamed on them. I've seen it blamed on Safedisc, I've seen it blamed on SecuROM, and I've seen it blamed on Tages. Same thing with killing hard drives, or forcing them in to PIO mode, even though this is a known Windows bug. And DRM isn't the only thing this happens with. I see it all the time when software is changed. Like going from Groupwise to Outlook. I recently made that change at a clients Office, and you wouldn't believe the shit I heard blamed on Outlook. Because everyone in the office had already decided they didn't like Outlook and they didn't want Outlook before they had even used it. A PC's hard drive died, and I heard "the computer started acting funny when you installed Outlook", a NIC died and I heard "Outlook probably overloaded it. The internet was so slow after you installed Outlook, I think Outlook clogs up the internet." A person's mapped network drive disappeared and I heard "I opened Outlook and then I couldn't access any of my files."

newtekie1Since DRM isn't there to completely stop piracy, that would be a pointless question to ask. DRM does its job. It prevents Joe Everyman from copying the disc and handing it out to his friends, and it does a fine job at doing that. If you want some examples of games where DRM was very sucessful at this, look at Batman:AA. There wasn't a proper crack out for a good couple weeks after the game was launched, and this resulting in many people(like myself) to just go buy the game.
.

Hogwash: I don't know where you live but I can assure you that in both Spain and Ireland, "Joe Everyman" already has his drm-free copy. As far as Batman goes, I have not bought it as it contains Securom ;)

Mr McCHogwash: I don't no where you live but I can assure you that in both Spain and Ireland, "Joe Everyman" already has his drm-free copy. As far as Batman goes, I have not bought it as it contains Securom ;)

Not likely, remember most of your friends likely aren't Joe Everyman, so if you are using your friends as examples, you aren't looking at the right people.

newtekie1Not likely, remember most of your friends likely aren't Joe Everyman, so if you are using your friends as examples, you aren't looking at the right people.

My friends? My friend, step outdoors more often.

Mr McCMy friends? My friend, step outdoors more often.

Ok, that is a logical argument helping with the discussion.:rolleyes: Are you saying you don't have any friends, so you are basing your opinion on yourself alone?

Mr McCHogwash: I don't no where you live but I can assure you that in both Spain and Ireland, "Joe Everyman" already has his drm-free copy. As far as Batman goes, I have not bought it as it contains Securom ;)

Are you saying Joe Everyman knows torrents and or how to bypass DRMs? You overestimate Joe Everyman, I've met him, and I can tell you he ain't the smartest man in the world

DRMs not only stops the easy copy and give it to everyone like before, but it also delays pirate copies (which help in the first few weeks of the game's sells, where it matters).

Not all DRMs all pointless. Look at the PS3, I think it did fairly well

newtekie1Ok, that is a logical argument helping with the discussion.:rolleyes: Are you saying you don't have any friends, so you are basing your opinion on yourself alone?

I am saying that the shit, i.e. piracy, is rife, that anybody who wants it without paying for it will obtain it with relative ease, in most any location, and that the only people complaining about excessive DRM are nice, law-abiding paying citizens, like me.

Mr McCI am saying that the shit, i.e. piracy, is rife, that anybody who wants it without paying for it will obtain it with relative ease, in most any location, and that the only people complaining about excessive DRM are nice, law-abiding paying citizens, like me.

I disagree, I think you drastically overestimate Joe Everyman. Since I deal with them every day, and know that these are people that have a hard time figuring out how to transfer songs to the iPod, I can tell you that even after explaining and showing them how to deal with torrents they have a hard time doing it.

You can make the argument that gamers are slightly higher when it comes to computer skills than the average person, and I'll give you that. But even people with reasonable computer knowledge struggle. Hell, I just went over to teach my cousin how to deal with torrents and pirate games last week. He is a heavy gamer, and pretty decently competent at working a computer. After showing him the basics, and walking him through getting one game up and running I left. Not even 3 hours later I got a call from him because one of the pieces of software he downloaded required he modify his hosts file and he couldn't figure it out. And of course the instructions that come with the torrent, which always give very vague setup instructions assuming you know how to do each step, just said "copy and paste the following into your hosts file". So after walking him through that, a few hours later I get a call because he downloaded a game, followed the steps, and it didn't work. He starts it and nothing happens. Turns out the instructions left out a step, renaming a directory. I figured it out, but he never would have. And this is someone that is currently in college to get an IT degree...

The fact is, if you take someone that has never pirated in their life, and tell them to figure it out with no help at all, they probably won't be able to do it. And that is why big releases like BF and MW work with DRM. They'd rather just go buy the game and have it working instantly, likely buying it at the midnight release or on the first day of availability, then waiting for the crack, then fumble around with cracks and torrents and vague instructions that they have to guess about what they mean.

Clearly, we move in different circles.

Mr McCClearly, we move in different circles.

Yep, like I said, look beyond your circle of friends.;)

newtekie1I disagree, I think you drastically overestimate Joe Everyman. Since I deal with them every day, and know that these are people that have a hard time figuring out how to transfer songs to the iPod, I can tell you that even after explaining and showing them how to deal with torrents they have a hard time doing it.

You can make the argument that gamers are slightly higher when it comes to computer skills than the average person, and I'll give you that. But even people with reasonable computer knowledge struggle. Hell, I just went over to teach my cousin how to deal with torrents and pirate games last week. He is a heavy gamer, and pretty decently competent at working a computer. After showing him the basics, and walking him through getting one game up and running I left. Not even 3 hours later I got a call from him because one of the pieces of software he downloaded required he modify his hosts file and he couldn't figure it out. And of course the instructions that come with the torrent, which always give very vague setup instructions assuming you know how to do each step, just said "copy and paste the following into your hosts file". So after walking him through that, a few hours later I get a call because he downloaded a game, followed the steps, and it didn't work. He starts it and nothing happens. Turns out the instructions left out a step, renaming a directory. I figured it out, but he never would have. And this is someone that is currently in college to get an IT degree...

The fact is, if you take someone that has never pirated in their life, and tell them to figure it out with no help at all, they probably won't be able to do it. And that is why big releases like BF and MW work with DRM. They'd rather just go buy the game and have it working instantly, likely buying it at the midnight release or on the first day of availability, then waiting for the crack, then fumble around with cracks and torrents and vague instructions that they have to guess about what they mean.

:mad:

You are the cause of more and more restrictive DRMs :rolleyes:

@ Mr McC you gotta realize that friends of a computer literate person isn't that average man in computers. Also note that younger people will obviously have an easier time torrenting. Mr. 28 year old Joe Everyman from a humble Middle Class family working in a factory ain't the brightest man on earth, but he represents the "average" man

computer literacy is a requirement to engage in piracy, but has no bearing on your capacity to receive and employ pirated software ;)

Mr McCcomputer literacy is a requirement to engage in piracy, but has no bearing on your capacity to receive and employ pirated software ;)

Not everyone is like newtekie and goes to his cousin's house to teach him the stuff. I kinda want to slap him LOL. I definitively don't help pirate games

No offense newtekie... well a little bit but you get why :p

n-ster:mad:

You are the cause of more and more restrictive DRMs :rolleyes:

@ Mr McC you gotta realize that friends of a computer literate person isn't that average man in computers. Also note that younger people will obviously have an easier time torrenting. Mr. 28 year old Joe Everyman from a humble Middle Class family working in a factory ain't the brightest man on earth, but he represents the "average" man

I don't believe so. As I said, people like me, torrent users, aren't where DRM is targeted. It isn't like I put on classes on how to do it for the world to see. I've taught maybe 3 people how to do it, all in my family. I don't even show my friends, though mainly this is because I would rather avoid the constant phone calls asking "how do you do this again" or "it says to do this and I don't know what that means".

Generally I buy software/games that I think are worth the money. I've bought every Humble Indie bundle. I bought Minecraft and ProjectZomboid. I bought BF3 and MW3. I bought Doom3...the game industry owes me on that one... The fact is I've bought most of my games, mainly because I want to play them right away, and when an update is released I want to just download it without the game breaking, and having to wait a day or so for a new crack. So in essence, the DRM is working, and getting me to buy the games, even though I readily know how to pirate them.

And the cousin that I just showed how to pirate was at the midnight release picking up his copy of MW3. Most of what he is pirating is stuff like the Adobe suit, that is isn't about to pay $1,300 for just so he can mess around in photoshop and put penises in pictures of his ex-girlfriend,...:laugh:

Mr McCcomputer literacy is a requirement to engage in piracy, but has no bearing on your capacity to receive and employ pirated software ;)

It does in non-3rd world countries where they tend to frown on bootleg pirates standing around on the street corners selling pirated software/movies/music.

n-sterNot everyone is like newtekie and goes to his cousin's house to teach him the stuff. I kinda want to slap him LOL. I definitively don't help pirate games

No offense newtekie... well a little bit but you get why :p

Yeah, I understand. I'm an evil person, but I've come to accept that.:D

The misconception is that the industry continues to assume 1 Pirated Copy = 1 Lost Sale. The fact is, that's just not true. A lot of those people had no intention of ever buying the product, and just wanted to test it out. Of those people, some may have even been using it as a Demo since companies now refuse to release such.

Bittorrent couldn't have grown without word of mouth like that. I've seen the spread happen in front of my own eyes. I myself thought my aunt how to download TV shows (she lives in Africa and wouldn't be able to see them otherwise, I felt bad). She thought her sister who thought a few of the other cousins etc etc, now all my 12~30 year old family knows how to and they know i was the source too lol. I've tried discouraging hem and I never helped them but it still happened.

They also taught their friends (at least the teen cousins did) so the 1 time I decided to help, I spread it to over 100 people that I know of, and it multiplies so fast

1 pirated copy doesn't = 1 lost sale, but they do lose sales. They would lose even more sales if it were available on day 1 of the release of the game or if they were easily copied to give to a friend. There is also the principle that millions illegally have your work

newtekie1It does in non-3rd world countries where they tend to frown on bootleg pirates standing around on the street corners selling pirated software/movies/music.

I defer the opportunity to engage in a debate over what defines a third world country, I have no wish to offend anyone's sensibilities, you can explain yourself ;)

Without wishing to offend or become in any way personal, I have to suggest that your view of piracy and the facilty with which pirated software can be acquired is naive if you feel that it is largely confined to the piracy you refer to. Incidentally, the street piracy you refer to is a common offence amongst sub-Saharan immigrants on the streets of southern Europe, again, I will leave it to you to define which of these states matches you defintion of a third-world state. ;)

Mr McCI defer the opportunity to engage in a debate over what defines a third world country, I have no wish to offend anyone's sensibilities, you can explain yourself ;)

Without wishing to offend or become in any way personal, I have to suggest that your view of piracy and the facilty with which pirated software can be acquired is naive if you feel that it is largely confined to the piracy you refer to. Incidentally, the street piracy you refer to is a common offence amongst sub-Saharan immigrants on the streets of southern Europe, again, I will leave it to you to define which of these states matches you defintion of a third-world state. ;)

He was generalizing by 3rd world... in general its west vs east even. Doesn't mean that in NYC there aren't movie pirates selling burned DVDs

newtekie1No, it gets across nicely how people will seek a scape goat to blame their problems on even if they have no real tangible link between the problem and what they say caused it. And what I always find funny(or disturbing really) is that the same problems constantly get blamed on DRM software over and over again, each new DRM scheme that comes to light always gets blamed for the same old issues. I really don't think that every DRM that has been popular on PCs has caused CDs to explode in the drives, yet I see that blamed on them. I've seen it blamed on Safedisc, I've seen it blamed on SecuROM, and I've seen it blamed on Tages. Same thing with killing hard drives, or forcing them in to PIO mode, even though this is a known Windows bug. And DRM isn't the only thing this happens with. I see it all the time when software is changed. Like going from Groupwise to Outlook. I recently made that change at a clients Office, and you wouldn't believe the shit I heard blamed on Outlook. Because everyone in the office had already decided they didn't like Outlook and they didn't want Outlook before they had even used it. A PC's hard drive died, and I heard "the computer started acting funny when you installed Outlook", a NIC died and I heard "Outlook probably overloaded it. The internet was so slow after you installed Outlook, I think Outlook clogs up the internet." A person's mapped network drive disappeared and I heard "I opened Outlook and then I couldn't access any of my files."

I hate to say this NT, but I agree with you, at least in part. ;) :) Let me explain.

You say that DRM is blamed over and over for the same old issues. Well yeah, that might well be right and proper: taking Ubisofts always-on abomination as an example, then that has certain significant known issues/problems that it causes which I briefly listed, so if the company keeps using it for all their products, then is it any wonder that it's being slated the same way over and over? This principle would then apply to all the other DRMs too.

I do agree with you on the way that the clueless conflate correlation with causation every time. :rolleyes: Such fail :shadedshu I had this at work today, where some lady called the Helpdesk today and complained that since her PC was reimaged, she couldn't use a certain app. However, this app runs within Citrix sessions via the Citrix client software, so the problem bears no relation. It took quite some convincing to explain that they were coincidental only, but I don't think I managed to completely convince her... lol

I love your Outlook example, deliciously clueless. :laugh: Of course Outlook broke it, dontcha know? I think we could share lots of stories like that over a beer. :toast:

Finally, what puzzles me, is if you so support the copyright/DRM stance, then why did you show your friends how to pirate a few posts ago? (Bad NT!!) This makes no sense at all? :confused:

qubitYou say that DRM is blamed over and over for the same old issues. Well yeah, that might well be right and proper: taking Ubisofts always-on abomination as an example, then that has certain significant known issues/problems that it causes which I briefly listed, so if the company keeps using it for all their products, then is it any wonder that it's being slated the same way over and over? This principle would then apply to all the other DRMs too.

I agree, and you'll never hear me say the common DRM schemes are problem free. Personally I despise always on DRM. I think I've even voiced this when always on DRM was first hitting the market. I'll take an activation limit over allways on DRM anyday.

But my main point is that problems that never had anything to do with DRM are blamed on it, and every new DRM scheme that comes out gets blamed with the same problems as the last. It isn't possible that the same problems are caused by totally different DRM schemes, it isn't even possible that the DRM caused the problems in the first place most of the time.

DRM isn't a perfect thing. It isn't totally free of problems, I've experienced some myself. But usually they aren't nearly as terrible as people make them out to be, and they certainly don't affect anywhere near the volume of people that anti-DRM people would suggest.

qubitI love your Outlook example, deliciously clueless. :laugh: Of course Outlook broke it, dontcha know? I think we could share lots of stories like that over a beer. :toast:

Mmmmm....beer....

qubitFinally, what puzzles me, is if you so support the copyright/DRM stance, then why did you show your friends how to pirate a few posts ago? (Bad NT!!) This makes no sense at all? :confused:

I support DRM because understand that it is necessary, and I understand its purpose, and I see it working all the time. I pirate things all the time, but most of the people around me don't have the slightest clue how to download a game off the internet. I see DRM working all the time with them. I can go back to the PS1 days, before my friend's and I were into PC gaming, when we all had PS1s. Even back then there was DRM built into the system. But we would loan eachother the less popular games so we could all play them and not have to buy them, but the really good games, we all bought. Until we figured out that by simply using a piece of paper jammed in the CD door to fool the system into think it was closed, and some fancy disc swapping between a burned disc and a real disc as the system started, you could play burned games it all ended. We were burning off copies of games left and right and we as a group never bought more than one copy of a game again. We were also very young back then and didn't really know any better. And at the same time I see what a lack of DRM does too. They copy music back and forth constantly. They're downloading and trading movies with eachother to way all the time, without even burning them, they just play them from USB thumb drives on their PS3s. And oddly enough, they already figured out torrents without me to download movies, but they never firgured out pirating games.

I understand why DRM is necessary. Just because I'm a pirate that doesn't mean I can't support DRM. Yes it does seem a little hypocritical, but I guess that is just the way it is.

Now mind you, I support DRM when implemented properly. I do not support always on DRM. I don't mind DRM schemes such as Starforce and Tages as they generally work without problems. I also support activation and activation limits, when handled properly. There should always be a method to de-activate a copy or the time period where the the activation count reset or an activation expires and goes back into the activation pool. Also activation checks should be done only so often, not every time the program starts, so a person that doesn't have a consistent internet connection can play even without a connection. I'm also a big supporter of DRM being completely removed after a certain amount of time after the game has been released. Unreal Tournament(I can't remember the version, maybe it was all of them) was a great example of this. About a year after the game was released, they released a patch that completely removed the DRM from the game, because lets face it, sales for the game had probably slowed to nothing by that point, so why not. This is something I'm strongly for.

lets see whats new this game give us :D