Friday, June 26th 2015
AMD Didn't Get the R9 Fury X Wrong, but NVIDIA Got its GTX 980 Ti Right
This has been a roller-coaster month for high-end PC graphics. The timing of NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 980 Ti launch had us giving finishing touches to its review with our bags to Taipei still not packed. When it launched, the GTX 980 Ti set AMD a performance target and a price target. Then began a 3-week wait for AMD to launch its Radeon R9 Fury X graphics card. The dance is done, the dust has settled, and we know who has won - nobody. AMD didn't get the R9 Fury X wrong, but NVIDIA got its GTX 980 Ti right. At best, this stalemate yielded a 4K-capable single-GPU graphics option from each brand at $650. You already had those in the form of the $650-ish Radeon R9 295X2, or a pair GTX 970 cards. Those with no plans of a 4K display already had great options in the form of the GTX 970, and price-cut R9 290X.
The Radeon R9 290 series launch from Fall-2013 stirred up the high-end graphics market in a big way. The $399 R9 290 made NVIDIA look comically evil for asking $999 for the card it beat, the GTX TITAN; while the R9 290X remained the fastest single-GPU option, at $550, till NVIDIA launched the $699 GTX 780 Ti, to get people back to paying through their noses for the extra performance. Then there were two UFO sightings in the form of the GTX TITAN Black, and the GTX TITAN-Z, which made no tangible contributions to consumer choice. Sure, they gave you full double-precision floating point (DPFP) performance, but DPFP is of no use to gamers. So what could have been the calculation at AMD and NVIDIA as June 2015 approached? Here's a theory.Image credit: Mahspoonis2big, Reddit
AMD's HBM Gamble
The "Fiji" silicon is formidable. It made performance/Watt gains over "Hawaii," despite a lack of significant shader architecture performance improvements between GCN 1.1 and GCN 1.2 (at least nowhere of the kind between NVIDIA's "Kepler" and "Maxwell.") AMD could do a 45% increase in stream processors for the Radeon R9 Fury X, at the same typical board power as its predecessor, the R9 290X. The company had to find other ways to bring down power consumption, and one way to do that, while not sacrificing performance, was implementing a more efficient memory standard, High Bandwidth Memory (HBM).
Implementing HBM, right now, is not as easy GDDR5 was, when it was new. HBM is more efficient than GDDR5, but it trades clock speed for bus-width, and a wider bus entails more pins (connections), which would have meant an insane amount of PCB wiring around the GPU, in AMD's case. The company had to co-develop the industry's first mass-producible interposer (silicon die that acts as substrate for other dies), relocate the memory to the GPU package, and still make do with the design limitation of first-generation HBM capping out at 8 Gb per stack, or 4 GB for AMD's silicon; after having laid a 4096-bit wide memory bus. This was a bold move.
Reviews show that 4 GB of HBM isn't Fiji's Achilles' heel. The card still competes in the same league as the 6 GB memory-laden GTX 980 Ti, at 4K Ultra HD (a resolution that's most taxing on the video memory). The card is just 2% slower than the GTX 980 Ti, at this resolution. Its performance/Watt is significantly higher than the R9 290X. We reckon that this outcome would have been impossible with GDDR5, if AMD never gambled with HBM, and stuck to the 512-bit wide GDDR5 interface of "Hawaii," just as it stuck to a front-end and render back-end configuration similar to it (the front-end is similar to that of "Tonga," while the ROP count is the same as "Hawaii.")
NVIDIA Accelerated GM200
NVIDIA's big "Maxwell" silicon, the GM200, wasn't expected to come out as soon as it did. The GTX 980 and the 5 billion-transistor GM204 silicon are just 9 months old in the market, NVIDIA has sold a lot of these; and given how the company milked its predecessor, the GK104, for a year in the high-end segment before bringing out the GK110 with the TITAN; something similar was expected of the GM200. Its March 2015 introduction - just six months following the GTX 980 - was unexpected. What was also unexpected, was NVIDIA launching the GTX 980 Ti, as early as it did. This card has effectively cannibalized the TITAN X, just 3 months post its launch. The GTX TITAN X is a halo product, overpriced at $999, and hence not a lot of GM200 chips were expected to be in production. We heard reports throughout Spring, that launch of a high-volume, money-making SKU based on the GM200 could be expected only after Summer. As it turns out, NVIDIA was preparing a welcoming party for the R9 Fury X, with the GTX 980 Ti.
The GTX 980 Ti was more likely designed with R9 Fury X performance, rather than a target price, as the pivot. The $650 price tag is likely something NVIDIA came up with later, after having achieved a performance lead over the R9 Fury X, by stripping down the GM200 as much as it could to get there. How NVIDIA figured out R9 Fury X performance is anybody's guess. It's more likely that the price of R9 Fury X would have been different, if the GTX 980 Ti wasn't around; than the other way around.
Who Won?
Short answer - nobody. The high-end graphics card market isn't as shaken up as it was, right after the R9 290 series launch. The "Hawaii" twins held onto their own, and continued to offer great bang for the buck, until NVIDIA stepped in with the GTX 970 and GTX 980 last September. $300 gets you not much more from what it did a month ago. At least now you have a choice between the GTX 970 and the R9 390 (which appears to have caught up), at $430, the R9 390X offers competition to the $499 GTX 980; and then there are leftovers from the previous-gen, such as the R9 290 series and the GTX 780 Ti, but these aren't really the high-end we were looking for. It was gleeful to watch the $399 R9 290 dethrone the $999 GTX TITAN in September 2013, as people upgraded their rigs for Holiday 2013. We didn't see that kind of a spectacle this month. There is a silver lining, though. There is a rather big gap between the GTX 980 and GTX 980 Ti just waiting to be filled.
Hopefully July will churn out something exciting (and bonafide high-end) around the $500 mark.
The Radeon R9 290 series launch from Fall-2013 stirred up the high-end graphics market in a big way. The $399 R9 290 made NVIDIA look comically evil for asking $999 for the card it beat, the GTX TITAN; while the R9 290X remained the fastest single-GPU option, at $550, till NVIDIA launched the $699 GTX 780 Ti, to get people back to paying through their noses for the extra performance. Then there were two UFO sightings in the form of the GTX TITAN Black, and the GTX TITAN-Z, which made no tangible contributions to consumer choice. Sure, they gave you full double-precision floating point (DPFP) performance, but DPFP is of no use to gamers. So what could have been the calculation at AMD and NVIDIA as June 2015 approached? Here's a theory.Image credit: Mahspoonis2big, Reddit
AMD's HBM Gamble
The "Fiji" silicon is formidable. It made performance/Watt gains over "Hawaii," despite a lack of significant shader architecture performance improvements between GCN 1.1 and GCN 1.2 (at least nowhere of the kind between NVIDIA's "Kepler" and "Maxwell.") AMD could do a 45% increase in stream processors for the Radeon R9 Fury X, at the same typical board power as its predecessor, the R9 290X. The company had to find other ways to bring down power consumption, and one way to do that, while not sacrificing performance, was implementing a more efficient memory standard, High Bandwidth Memory (HBM).
Implementing HBM, right now, is not as easy GDDR5 was, when it was new. HBM is more efficient than GDDR5, but it trades clock speed for bus-width, and a wider bus entails more pins (connections), which would have meant an insane amount of PCB wiring around the GPU, in AMD's case. The company had to co-develop the industry's first mass-producible interposer (silicon die that acts as substrate for other dies), relocate the memory to the GPU package, and still make do with the design limitation of first-generation HBM capping out at 8 Gb per stack, or 4 GB for AMD's silicon; after having laid a 4096-bit wide memory bus. This was a bold move.
Reviews show that 4 GB of HBM isn't Fiji's Achilles' heel. The card still competes in the same league as the 6 GB memory-laden GTX 980 Ti, at 4K Ultra HD (a resolution that's most taxing on the video memory). The card is just 2% slower than the GTX 980 Ti, at this resolution. Its performance/Watt is significantly higher than the R9 290X. We reckon that this outcome would have been impossible with GDDR5, if AMD never gambled with HBM, and stuck to the 512-bit wide GDDR5 interface of "Hawaii," just as it stuck to a front-end and render back-end configuration similar to it (the front-end is similar to that of "Tonga," while the ROP count is the same as "Hawaii.")
NVIDIA Accelerated GM200
NVIDIA's big "Maxwell" silicon, the GM200, wasn't expected to come out as soon as it did. The GTX 980 and the 5 billion-transistor GM204 silicon are just 9 months old in the market, NVIDIA has sold a lot of these; and given how the company milked its predecessor, the GK104, for a year in the high-end segment before bringing out the GK110 with the TITAN; something similar was expected of the GM200. Its March 2015 introduction - just six months following the GTX 980 - was unexpected. What was also unexpected, was NVIDIA launching the GTX 980 Ti, as early as it did. This card has effectively cannibalized the TITAN X, just 3 months post its launch. The GTX TITAN X is a halo product, overpriced at $999, and hence not a lot of GM200 chips were expected to be in production. We heard reports throughout Spring, that launch of a high-volume, money-making SKU based on the GM200 could be expected only after Summer. As it turns out, NVIDIA was preparing a welcoming party for the R9 Fury X, with the GTX 980 Ti.
The GTX 980 Ti was more likely designed with R9 Fury X performance, rather than a target price, as the pivot. The $650 price tag is likely something NVIDIA came up with later, after having achieved a performance lead over the R9 Fury X, by stripping down the GM200 as much as it could to get there. How NVIDIA figured out R9 Fury X performance is anybody's guess. It's more likely that the price of R9 Fury X would have been different, if the GTX 980 Ti wasn't around; than the other way around.
Who Won?
Short answer - nobody. The high-end graphics card market isn't as shaken up as it was, right after the R9 290 series launch. The "Hawaii" twins held onto their own, and continued to offer great bang for the buck, until NVIDIA stepped in with the GTX 970 and GTX 980 last September. $300 gets you not much more from what it did a month ago. At least now you have a choice between the GTX 970 and the R9 390 (which appears to have caught up), at $430, the R9 390X offers competition to the $499 GTX 980; and then there are leftovers from the previous-gen, such as the R9 290 series and the GTX 780 Ti, but these aren't really the high-end we were looking for. It was gleeful to watch the $399 R9 290 dethrone the $999 GTX TITAN in September 2013, as people upgraded their rigs for Holiday 2013. We didn't see that kind of a spectacle this month. There is a silver lining, though. There is a rather big gap between the GTX 980 and GTX 980 Ti just waiting to be filled.
Hopefully July will churn out something exciting (and bonafide high-end) around the $500 mark.
223 Comments on AMD Didn't Get the R9 Fury X Wrong, but NVIDIA Got its GTX 980 Ti Right
:laugh:
I dont claim to know the numbers, but I doubt its a calculation u can do on a napkin or a short forum post.
The first big ask is that inflation is a constant. Inflation varies year to year, in sections of the market, and even then we aren't accounting for the market crash of 2008. If you somehow believe that my numbers were 100% accurate, you failed to grasp that I was setting up a rough estimation. Assuming you wanted 100% accurate numbers you'd have to review governmental reporting for each year, and do the math for each individual year. That 100% accurate answer takes more than 4 times the effort of my 90% accurate answer. If you'd like to do that extended math, help yourself.
Company headquarters, and even manufacturing facilities don't matter. To the consumer the manufacturing plant could be down the street, half way around the world, or in a parallel dimension. The manufacturing facility influences only the associated materials cost for the product, as the resources used to get the goods to point of sale are lumped into the gross price. Adding in currency conversion rates is a needless complication, because they don't matter. The consumer only sees the shelf price. We are unconcerned with the price the manufacturer actually pays (and their subsequent profit margin).
Currency doesn't matter. To have to state this is stupid, but relative currency value fluctuates daily. Despite this, the cost of a card doesn't fluctuate. Fluctuating currency values are built into the selling price of cards. Even then, value fluctuation is generally insignificant. Assuming a 10% relative fluctuation in the relative value of currencies, the parent company eats a loss somewhere and a gain in another location. 2+3 = 7-2 = 900-901+6.
At this point I'm supposing that you want to factor in something else needlessly complex. How about AUD =/= USD =/= EURO =/= German Mark? The reason I chose one currency is because it makes things easy to relate. If you want to be pedantic I suggest you start calculating the relative value of Franks, Pounds, AUD, USD, Marks, and a dozen other Western European countries old currencies. Kinda seems like you're looking for a justification as to why I might be wrong then, without regards for contents of the argument.
At this point, I've justified my reasoning. It's time for you to do the same. Assuming you have no argument, I'll assume you've acquiesced to the point. If you can come back an prove that my assertion that pricing is actually in line with inflation, I'll gladly admit that I am wrong. It's your move @Folterknecht .
www.cnet.com/products/ati-radeon-9800-xt/#!
Kind of surprise that TPU's review has been done on Win 7 for quite a long time
For some people like myself, who got their start some time earlier, there has always been a high end. Exhibit #1 from 1998, a Quantum3D Obsidian² X-24
According to this U.S. inflation calculator, that $600 now equates to almost $900. At that was considered a bargain compared with the Obsidian Pro 100DB-4440 which was four times the price.
How ever price of living a lot higher.
Examples:
AMD Claims Fury X is faster than 980Ti at 4k. = False
AMD Claims Fury X runs at 50°C under typical load. = False
AMD Claims Fury X under load is less than 32db. = False(but close at least)
AMD Claims, in the first 5 minutes, Fury X is the worlds fastest graphics processor, world most power efficient graphics processor, and allows revolutionary form factors. = Again all False
All the talk of performance over watts without giving any actual performance figures (and referring to their biggest single GPU card power guzzler too) made me suspect something like this but i really hoped they learned from "the bulldozer hype fiasco": it seems they didn't :(
The card is good and is a definite boost over their previous single GPU card high end, both performance as well as power usage wise but it fails quite hard because AMD hyped it WAY too much, making it seem much better then it actually is, and it's byting them in the ass, with great white shark teeth ...
EDIT
@OP: since this is an editorial / opinion, it shouldn't be in news section, IMO.
I see it as, AMD with Fury X, has shown that the HBM tek works, thats the way to go in the future, thats where the money is.
As far as preformance, thats a bit dissapointing which is mostly due to the hype arround Fury X. Had Nvidia launched GFX 980TI in late summer(as planned), we would all just sit and say....WOW what a card, but Nvidia pulled out a rabbit.
I know most gamers play in less resolutions, to them, its a entusiast card, its NOT made for the masses, its made for the top of the pop.
You might argue that the price is too high, I can only say get over it and find the card in your pricepoint that suits you, I couldnt care less.
The price is right and people are buying it so far, now we can only wait and see what R9 Fury on air brings to the table. That card might end up being the real bang for the buck for AMD, just like R9 290 is, great preformance for a reasonable price.
As for 4K gaming, thats just too soon, the screens just arent good enough yet, but they will be eventually. If you are in the market for a card like Fury X or GTX 980TI it would be a real shame to let them run at a 1080 screen, its simply not good enough to being able using all that power, the sweet spot is in my opinion is 2560X1440 as of now..
Yeah AMD hyped up the card, they most certainly did.... I mean that's the PR and marketing team's job... they generate buzz... Nvidia does it, Intel does it, MSI, ASUS, on and on... all vendors do it.... Looking at the raw numbers yeah the 980Ti is ahead... but you are talking 5-10FPS at their targeted resolutions which are 1440p and above.... which in most cases turns out to be a wash because they trade back and forth.... yeah lower resolution the gap is larger but these cards aren't made for 1080p or lower.... they aren't marketed to that...
Again this is a case of people just looking for any little thing to bash a company on.... I mean does it really make you feel that much better to come here and flame?? I sometimes am amused by these comments but some of these are just disheartening both as an enthusiast and an engineer.... wtf...... It is as if people think coming up with these technologies is easy and that anyone can do it...
In that case, it looks like AMD shot themselves in the foot by delivering a faulty unit to TPU for review. I think they would do well to send another one so the review can be updated, since a problem like that is a dealbreaker.
Enjoy your card. :toast:
What rock do you live under ?
AMD will live no matter what, even Nvidia needs them otherwise there will be no development regarding GFX, then all is over. Nvidia hasent come up with 1 single breaktrough in years, they have only been on the wave AMD)ATI started. Im actually not a fanboy, but ive had AMD/ATI ever since the battle between ATI 8500 and Gforce 2.
Ive sticked with AMD ever since before catalyst drivers were envented, but im still not a fan boy, saying AMD is best.
Ive only gone that way because I know how to tweak the drivers for AMD, and I have no clue how to do that on a Nvidia card, and I really dont care. Im happy about the choices ive made and i will stick with that no matter what as long as my card deliveres and preform the way I expect it to.
That looks like a daughterboard at the back there. Do you have a clearer picture of it?
The card is good, I never even hinted it wasn't. AMD just marketed it wrong, their PR department made the situation have one outcome, disappointing. Like I said, if they had been straight up and just said "we're releasing a card that can compete with the 980Ti at 4k" and then released it at $50 less because it is slightly weaker than the 980Ti, they would have had a winner launch. They didn't have to lie and say it beats the 980Ti at 4k, that it was the fastest GPU in the world. They just had to establish that Fury X would be a reasonable alternative to the 980Ti and a slightly lower price. That is all they had to do, but their ego got the best of them. That is my constructive criticism, that was in my first post. Promote the card, hype the card, but don't over hype the card to the point that it can't live up to what you are saying about it.
These aren't fanboy statements, they are my opinion on the situation and why Fury X ended up a disappointment. I mean, clearly I'm an nVidia/Intel fanboy. I've got 2 Intel/nVidia systems and 6 AMD/AMD systems in my house right now...but I just love me some AMD bashing...:rollseyes: Sorry, but the fanboy is the one that can't take someone even suggesting that their beloved company of choice did something wrong, and things any negative opinion on the companies actions is "flaming" them.