Yeah, you have said that twice now... its water cooling as there is water circulating in the cooler.

EarthDogYeah, you have said that twice now... its water cooling as there is water circulating in the cooler.

There is coolant circulating no water in those things.

EarthDogThere is a difference between hot to the touch and warm people. There was literally 45C+ temps coming through the tiny radiator. The problem with "HOT" comes when some pumps (not many) have limits of 45C water temperatures. Most are 60C though. Again, warm OK, hot to the touch, not really a great idea and is a clear sign of not having enough cooling area.

Reiterating the 'basics' really isn't going to change my thought process. I owned one with both the sub-par 120mm rad, and then I put it in a custom loop... BIG difference when there is actually enough radiator to keep it cool..........where water cooling "should" be. General rule of thumb ALL OVER THE WEB is ~100W for ever 1x120mm worth of radiator. Even if you double that, the 295x2 was a 500W card... Its VRMs were not cooled by the thing even.

The pump being on top of the chip and getting direct flow of hot water means it's getting hotter water than that though.

There's going to be a distinct difference between custom and AIO. Quality of parts for one, and I think people tend to confuse this. Just because temps are higher doesn't make it any less water cooling, because it's still using water.
And I've read all over the net general rule of thumb, 1 120mm per chip. Gee per 100W you'd have people needing radiators the size of their room for some PCs. :laugh:

My thing is even the cpu coolers don't touch a real loop. I can go dig my fusion v2 out of the garage toss it on my single high fpi 120mm and it will beat my h100i. This in my eyes makes it worthless to compare these aio's to real loops they will never compare.

cdawallMy thing is even the cpu coolers don't touch a real loop. I can go dig my fusion v2 out of the garage toss it on my single high fpi 120mm and it will beat my h100i. This in my eyes makes it worthless to compare these aio's to real loops they will never compare.

The biggest difference is low FPI aluminum rads vs high FPS copper and low flow solutions. The difference is made up in cost really.

PP MguireThe biggest difference is low FPI aluminum rads vs high FPS copper and low flow solutions. The difference is made up in cost really.

My pump and waterblock run more than the highest of high end aio. This is why I leave them in the back with all the other aircooling options. They cheap easy half decent coolers on their best day that's it.

cdawallThere is coolant circulating no water in those things.

Don't split hairs. You get the point.

PP MguireThe pump being on top of the chip and getting direct flow of hot water means it's getting hotter water than that though.

There's going to be a distinct difference between custom and AIO. Quality of parts for one, and I think people tend to confuse this. Just because temps are higher doesn't make it any less water cooling, because it's still using water.
And I've read all over the net general rule of thumb, 1 120mm per chip. Gee per 100W you'd have people needing radiators the size of their room for some PCs. :laugh:

Not really. To get a good DeltaT that is the general rule of thumb. I had 5x120mm worth of radiator for the 5820K and 295x2. In that loop, the rads were APPROPRIATELY warm to the touch, not HOT like the barely good enough one that comes with it. You can use less, but your deltaT goes up and so do temperatures. What is the point of water if it won't cool better than air? ;)

Many mid tower cases can easily hold a 2x120mm and a 3x120mm. That would cool most dual card + CPU setups. For a single card + CPU, most all you need is 3x120mm.

EarthDogThere is a difference between hot to the touch and warm people. There was literally 45C+ temps coming through the tiny radiator. The problem with "HOT" comes when some pumps (not many) have limits of 45C water temperatures. Most are 60C though. Again, warm OK, hot to the touch, not really a great idea and is a clear sign of not having enough cooling area. A couple of reviews say that, in fact.

Reiterating the 'basics' really isn't going to change my thought process. I owned one with both the sub-par 120mm rad, and then I put it in a custom loop... BIG difference when there is actually enough radiator to keep it cool..........where water cooling "should" be. General rule of thumb ALL OVER THE WEB is ~100W for ever 1x120mm worth of radiator. Even if you double that, the 295x2 was a 500W card... Its VRMs were not cooled by the thing even. Does it work.. yes it does...but it could have been A LOT better with a 2x120mm rad. Problem is not all cases have room for it, hence their choice for 120mm.

Excuse me, but i'm not sure you realize how "hot" 45-50 degrees actually is. At 50 you basically can't touch it because it's so hot. So i don't think you really can judge it "by hand".

Also remember that in AiOs there is glycol used, not demineralized water.

I didn't need to. I had a temperature sensor on the exhaust side of the radiator giving me those readings. When testing, it sat on my desk with the stock fan on it.. it went fan->rad-> temp sensor.

I also touched it by hand and, as I said multiple times in this thread, it was hot to the touch.

Nobody gives a crap what is inside an AIO. The point is that it is liquid cooled.

Well, the one fact doesn't change. If it exists, it somehow works.

EarthDogDon't split hairs. You get the point.

There may have been a slight amount of sarcasm.

LOL, that doesn't translate well on forums sometimes...:toast:

EarthDogLOL, that doesn't translate well on forums sometimes...:toast:

Only thing I am saying as far as performance go they may as well be air. AIO's kinda suck if you want water cooling performance. Although I am sure I can find an old koolance or thermaltake kit that does worse than a corsair item :roll:

I guess where I take exception is your blanket statement that they may as well be air. You are right, in particular when talking about a single 120mm rad. Now, when you get to 2x120 and 2x140mm they, for the most part, perform BETTER than the best air cooler by a couple/few C depending on the unit. They have more headroom and cooling capacity than air. So while it isn't quite as good as custom loop with presumably more radiator, 2x120mm and 2x140mm certainly can be better than the best air. ;)

What the single 120mm do bring over their air counterparts, generally, is more quiet operation.

cdawallThere is coolant circulating no water in those things.

They don't use straight coolant, they use a coolant+water mix. Most use propylene glycol or ethylene glycol, both are the constancy of syrup by themselves. That would be far to viscous to pump through the AIO coolers, especially with their weak pumps, so they are mixed with water.

EarthDogI guess where I take exception is your blanket statement that they may as well be air. You are right, in particular when talking about a single 120mm rad. Now, when you get to 2x120 and 2x140mm they, for the most part, perform BETTER than the best air cooler by a couple/few C depending on the unit. They have more headroom and cooling capacity than air. So while it isn't quite as good as custom loop with presumably more radiator, 2x120mm and 2x140mm certainly can be better than the best air. ;)

What the single 120mm do bring over their air counterparts, generally, is more quiet operation.

Not when most pumps are junk and are the loudest part of the whole thing. Doesnt really make for q quiter solution.

EarthDogI guess where I take exception is your blanket statement that they may as well be air. You are right, in particular when talking about a single 120mm rad. Now, when you get to 2x120 and 2x140mm they, for the most part, perform BETTER than the best air cooler by a couple/few C depending on the unit. They have more headroom and cooling capacity than air. So while it isn't quite as good as custom loop with presumably more radiator, 2x120mm and 2x140mm certainly can be better than the best air. ;)

What the single 120mm do bring over their air counterparts, generally, is more quiet operation.

They are all within a few c. I can still beat my h100i in push/pull with a single good 120mm rad set up in a custom loop. At the end the pumps cheap, rads aluminum and low fpi. They compete with air, they get their assets kicked by real water lol.

newtekie1They don't use straight coolant, they use a coolant+water mix. Most use propylene glycol or ethylene glycol, both are the constancy of syrup by themselves. That would be far to viscous to pump through the AIO coolers, especially with their weak pumps, so they are mixed with water.

Again the post was sarcasm...

MxPhenom 216Not when most pumps are junk and are the loudest part of the whole thing. Doesnt really make for q quiter solution.

That can also be true. I have had really good luck however with multiple kits that were whisper quiet... Coolmaster Seidon, Nepton, NZXT Kraken X61, Thermaltake BigWater (2.0/3.0). Then your 'custom' AIO's (Swiftech, EK kit, etc..) those are whisper quiet.............and 2x expensive, LOL!

cdawallThey are all within a few c.

Yeah... I said that. But it still beats the 'best' (what NH-D15) is the point. Custom tends to beat AIOs, indeed. That really isn't a talking point though. We were talking air vs aio.

EarthDogThat can also be true. I have had really good luck however with multiple kits that were whisper quiet... Coolmaster Seidon, Nepton, NZXT Kraken X61, Thermaltake BigWater (2.0/3.0). Then your 'custom' AIO's (Swiftech, EK kit, etc..) those are whisper quiet.............and 2x expensive, LOL!

I completely agree with this I have had about half a dozen AIO's none have had loud pumps. Eventually my H100i will ramp the fans up, but that's only under an abnormal load.

EarthDogYeah... I said that. But it still beats the 'best' (what NH-D15) is the point. Custom tends to beat AIOs, indeed. That really isn't a talking point though. We were talking air vs aio.

I agree, but the difference between the best air cooler and best AIO is a much smaller delta than even normal water vs an AIO. Again all I am saying is the cooler on the duo will never be comparable to a good water setup. I agree that as far as an AIO goes the rad is too small (in a good custom loop a single 120 would be fine, but alas against the point), but all it is meant to do is cool a stock card at stock settings reliably.

EarthDogDon't split hairs. You get the point.

Not really. To get a good DeltaT that is the general rule of thumb. I had 5x120mm worth of radiator for the 5820K and 295x2. In that loop, the rads were APPROPRIATELY warm to the touch, not HOT like the barely good enough one that comes with it. You can use less, but your deltaT goes up and so do temperatures. What is the point of water if it won't cool better than air? ;)

Many mid tower cases can easily hold a 2x120mm and a 3x120mm. That would cool most dual card + CPU setups. For a single card + CPU, most all you need is 3x120mm.

Delta is all a matter of preference. By your logic I should add more rads and complication because my rad is hot to the touch, when my GPU temps are cool which makes no sense. 50c is much better than air, MUCH better, and that's with a game that actually puts both GPUs at 99% and stays there with a good amount of CPU usage. When I'm playing other games my cards don't even touch 45c. Rad still hot though because it's dissipating about 800W worth of heat. Temps good, I see no reason to complicate my loop further for epeen. In the case of the 295x2 dual 290x's on air will slam 85c and stay there (not to mention that terrible noise) where a 295x2 with proper ambient temps will stick to 70c. I see no issue with that either as it's a good 15c cooler than 2 air cooled cards.

HiryouganExcuse me, but i'm not sure you realize how "hot" 45-50 degrees actually is. At 50 you basically can't touch it because it's so hot. So i don't think you really can judge it "by hand".

Also remember that in AiOs there is glycol used, not demineralized water.

50c isn't that hot buddy. In Texas summer the ambient temp outside is almost that hot, and in some parts of the desert it really gets that hot. I think hot water coming from your tap is hotter too. Now when my rad was 65c that was pretty damn hot on my finger, but not enough to burn me.

MxPhenom 216Not when most pumps are junk and are the loudest part of the whole thing. Doesnt really make for q quiter solution.

As seen already posted, most aren't loud at all.

cdawallThey are all within a few c. I can still beat my h100i in push/pull with a single good 120mm rad set up in a custom loop. At the end the pumps cheap, rads aluminum and low fpi. They compete with air, they get their assets kicked by real water lol.



Again the post was sarcasm...

Of course they get their asses kicked, but custom water is nowhere close to being that cheap either.

cdawallI completely agree with this I have had about half a dozen AIO's none have had loud pumps. Eventually my H100i will ramp the fans up, but that's only under an abnormal load.



I agree, but the difference between the best air cooler and best AIO is a much smaller delta than even normal water vs an AIO. Again all I am saying is the cooler on the duo will never be comparable to a good water setup. I agree that as far as an AIO goes the rad is too small (in a good custom loop a single 120 would be fine, but alas against the point), but all it is meant to do is cool a stock card at stock settings reliably.

A D15 is kind of a bitch to install, makes installing RAM a bitch, and sometimes even the top graphics card. That's really one of the only competing pieces with AIO IMO and the pros of AIO outweigh the cons or the slightly small delta. The h100i on my CPU actually cooled better than any tower cooler I could get my hands on though.

PP MguireNow when my rad was 65c that was pretty damn hot on my finger, but not enough to burn me.

Good stuff here. You do know the pump in most AIOs (read: most pumps) are rated to 60C (some less!), right? So, is it really doing a good job if it can't keep the water temps below the specs of the pump? ALso, how can your rad/water temps be warmer than your core? That is impossible... laws of Physics and all.. ;)

PP Mguire50c isn't that hot buddy. In Texas summer the ambient temp outside is almost that hot, and in some parts of the desert it really gets that hot. I think hot water coming from your tap is hotter too. Now when my rad was 65c that was pretty damn hot on my finger, but not enough to burn me.

I say it's hot exactly because i have tap water set on 45 degrees, i tried 50 but it's so hot that it burns. That's why i said it.

EarthDogGood stuff here. You do know the pump in most AIOs (read: most pumps) are rated to 60C (some less!), right? So, is it really doing a good job if it can't keep the water temps below the specs of the pump? ALso, how can your rad/water temps be warmer than your core? That is impossible... laws of Physics and all.. ;)

3 cores, 800W worth of heat being extracted. Not impossible at all. It's also not an AIO, I have a custom loop. If my 50x can't take the little heat it's not worth the praise it got. On that note my H100i took 60+ degree temps for 3 years straight and still going. My H50 took worse abuse in Texas summers.

HiryouganI say it's hot exactly because i have tap water set on 45 degrees, i tried 50 but it's so hot that it burns. That's why i said it.

Mine is set to 145f. Heats the water up quicker when my asshole roomie decides to take a shower when I normally do. When I switch to tankless later this year it'll probably be hotter. This is why taps have cold water available too.

buildzoidWhy what don't you like about them?

CDAWall covered most of the issues i have with all in ones, though i disagree with him about noise, generally aio's, and in particular ones that use a single 120mm rad, are always way noisier than air cooling.

Plus, pumps have moving parts, and inevitably fail, id just rather not have it on the card, so in worst case scenario (pump fails out of warranty, cant find a replacement at a sensible price) you could just cut the tubes and add in some custom wc gear

I never suggested it was impossible to reach those temps. I am only saying that its clearly not 'ok' when you are running things out of spec temperature wise. :)