Sunday, May 14th 2017
On Elmor's Open Letter, or The State of the Industry
A post on Reddit is doing the rounds from user elmor, a well-renowned enthusiast overclocker who works for ASUS' ROG Motherboard R&D - specifically, in the development of overclocking and enthusiast features. In his post, he talks about the posture of some motherboard makers, as well as about the state of the market as is, with some interesting tidbits thrown in.
One of the most interesting tidbits to be gleaned from his post is that from his perspective, overclocking's biggest supporters are Intel and AMD, who "seriously love overclocking and have excellent people pushing it internally"? AMD I understand - two generations now they've graced us with unlocked-multiplier processors. Intel, on the other hand, has locked-in overclocking efforts with their K-series processors, and have recently told enthusiasts that they should stop overclocking their i7 7700K CPUs, so... I'm a bit on the fence with the blue giant on that specific regard, at least when it comes to mainstream overclocking. My locked i5 6400 is doing just great in the overclocking department, mind you - just not thanks to Intel. Interestingly, Elmor also sets NVIDIA "in the corner of shame" because of their "reluctance to help us push the limits of PC hardware and locking things down more and more."Elmor also specifically calls out MSI - giving the example of their X370 Xpower motherboard - as being a showcase of product development mainly guided by something akin to "slapping LEDs on it and call it gaming." And this is something that can be further developed, so bear with me for a little while.The number of advertised features on motherboards have been growing exponentially (pardon my mathematically inaccurate statement, but you get the point.) Manufacturers have been more and more tending towards a "checklist" development so as to offer all the same bangs and whistles that their competitors do, while trying to throw in a specific twist of their own. There is an overabundance of features which all beg to be tested, but at the same time, they're mainly the same ideas and features implemented in a slightly different way, worded with a huge amount of marketing sugar sprinkled on top.It's a race towards the top, with each manufacturer vying for the consumer's attention, which naturally also ends up bringing a feeling of "been there, done that" in regards to motherboards and their features. If one simply counts the number of implementations of a simple M.2 thermal shield, or an on-board Realtek audio chip, or a manufacturer's specific LED implementation and control on a motherboard level... Between May 14th and April 1st, we here on TPU have covered north of 20 new motherboard releases, and I'm pretty sure a few have slipped through the cracks.
This brings about the topic of market - and feature - saturation and overlapping. A quick and dirty check shows there are at least 59 (!) different motherboards which pack Realtek's ALC 1220 audio solution. Each manufacturer, however, has a distinct marketing for their product, be it Audio Boost (MSI), Supreme FX (ASUS), Purity Sound(ASRock), AMP-UP Audio (Gigabyte), Audio Boost 4 (MSI) or some other marketing naming.This cutthroat competition and rapid pace of product launches, releases and re-releases with added features also ends up impacting review cycles and timing, as you could expect. The fact is that the number of advertised features is just too great to extensively cover, and keeping up with, with the depth we would like. I'd say that TPU's reviews - courtesy of our own excellent cadaveca - tend to go deeper than the norm, but that's also part of the reason why there are relatively few of them.
Baseline quality of any given motherboard, from the most bare-bones model to the highest of the top-end, have improved substantially over the years. This makes attributing review scores - or better, achieving differentiation through review scores - harder. And sure, there is a level of diplomacy involved regarding review scores. Is it the right thing to do to give a 7 to a motherboard because some non-essential features are slightly buggy? Should we award the 7 and "kill" the product's image outright, or be diplomatic - some would say sensible - and attribute a score based on the the delivery and the potential of the product? We've all heard of some bug fixes doing wonders for any given product. And a hypothetical 8.5 with reservations regarding the required fixing of some bugs, or a 7 solely on the basis that the bugs exist, paint completely different pictures. Fairness is a hard descriptor to achieve, but it's what must be sought after.Imitation is said to be the sincerest form of flattering, and the entire market (not just the motherboard market, mind you), is built on it. Whether or not this is healthy is another matter entirely - companies who invest in new features do so knowing that their competitors will immediately look towards matching and surpassing their own implementation. They may have a head-start, but it won't ever be a significant one - and original design, feature and product development is much more expensive and time-consuming than imitation. Paving the road is the hardest part, not actually riding it.
Source:
Reddit
One of the most interesting tidbits to be gleaned from his post is that from his perspective, overclocking's biggest supporters are Intel and AMD, who "seriously love overclocking and have excellent people pushing it internally"? AMD I understand - two generations now they've graced us with unlocked-multiplier processors. Intel, on the other hand, has locked-in overclocking efforts with their K-series processors, and have recently told enthusiasts that they should stop overclocking their i7 7700K CPUs, so... I'm a bit on the fence with the blue giant on that specific regard, at least when it comes to mainstream overclocking. My locked i5 6400 is doing just great in the overclocking department, mind you - just not thanks to Intel. Interestingly, Elmor also sets NVIDIA "in the corner of shame" because of their "reluctance to help us push the limits of PC hardware and locking things down more and more."Elmor also specifically calls out MSI - giving the example of their X370 Xpower motherboard - as being a showcase of product development mainly guided by something akin to "slapping LEDs on it and call it gaming." And this is something that can be further developed, so bear with me for a little while.The number of advertised features on motherboards have been growing exponentially (pardon my mathematically inaccurate statement, but you get the point.) Manufacturers have been more and more tending towards a "checklist" development so as to offer all the same bangs and whistles that their competitors do, while trying to throw in a specific twist of their own. There is an overabundance of features which all beg to be tested, but at the same time, they're mainly the same ideas and features implemented in a slightly different way, worded with a huge amount of marketing sugar sprinkled on top.It's a race towards the top, with each manufacturer vying for the consumer's attention, which naturally also ends up bringing a feeling of "been there, done that" in regards to motherboards and their features. If one simply counts the number of implementations of a simple M.2 thermal shield, or an on-board Realtek audio chip, or a manufacturer's specific LED implementation and control on a motherboard level... Between May 14th and April 1st, we here on TPU have covered north of 20 new motherboard releases, and I'm pretty sure a few have slipped through the cracks.
This brings about the topic of market - and feature - saturation and overlapping. A quick and dirty check shows there are at least 59 (!) different motherboards which pack Realtek's ALC 1220 audio solution. Each manufacturer, however, has a distinct marketing for their product, be it Audio Boost (MSI), Supreme FX (ASUS), Purity Sound(ASRock), AMP-UP Audio (Gigabyte), Audio Boost 4 (MSI) or some other marketing naming.This cutthroat competition and rapid pace of product launches, releases and re-releases with added features also ends up impacting review cycles and timing, as you could expect. The fact is that the number of advertised features is just too great to extensively cover, and keeping up with, with the depth we would like. I'd say that TPU's reviews - courtesy of our own excellent cadaveca - tend to go deeper than the norm, but that's also part of the reason why there are relatively few of them.
Baseline quality of any given motherboard, from the most bare-bones model to the highest of the top-end, have improved substantially over the years. This makes attributing review scores - or better, achieving differentiation through review scores - harder. And sure, there is a level of diplomacy involved regarding review scores. Is it the right thing to do to give a 7 to a motherboard because some non-essential features are slightly buggy? Should we award the 7 and "kill" the product's image outright, or be diplomatic - some would say sensible - and attribute a score based on the the delivery and the potential of the product? We've all heard of some bug fixes doing wonders for any given product. And a hypothetical 8.5 with reservations regarding the required fixing of some bugs, or a 7 solely on the basis that the bugs exist, paint completely different pictures. Fairness is a hard descriptor to achieve, but it's what must be sought after.Imitation is said to be the sincerest form of flattering, and the entire market (not just the motherboard market, mind you), is built on it. Whether or not this is healthy is another matter entirely - companies who invest in new features do so knowing that their competitors will immediately look towards matching and surpassing their own implementation. They may have a head-start, but it won't ever be a significant one - and original design, feature and product development is much more expensive and time-consuming than imitation. Paving the road is the hardest part, not actually riding it.
82 Comments on On Elmor's Open Letter, or The State of the Industry
There's a thread running at Overclock.net with 1.5 million views and 22,000 replies on the Crosshair VI . It was started by Elmor himself and he's in the top-20 posters in that thread.
If there's anything you can't accuse him of it's lack of communication with the customer base.
Vendors, for us at least, also request reviews on most kits. They arent just handed out for nothing (to us). I cant support a new mobo launch and 10 sets of memory at a smaller site.
To be frank, IMO, it is also not a reviewers job to test ram sticks for the boards. That is what a qvl list is for. What most revuewers test for is what covers most people.
Memory really matters so little for most people, its really not worth focusing effort on, truthfully. Its xmp and go for 95% of people.
Now, software, i can agree with you. Software suites, including AISuite, are dubious at best. Most forums recommemd not even using them as it cam cause issues.
The C6H gain notoriety with it's bricking situation at launch, what many forgot to mention when discussing it on OCN how swiftly they responded. I pre ordered my C6H on the 01/03/17, received it 10/03/17 and on that day a updated UEFI was on OCN.
Then there is an issue with G.Skill RGB RAM, where the RGB function uses SPD write. When another SW is using the SMBus corruption of SPD could occur, as soon as Elmor become aware of this he stated he would get the Asus Aura SW updated to use correct "locking" function and it happened. AFAIK other vendors have yet to resolve it.
Then some C6H owners were experiencing an issue where RGB function on C6H stopped working. As these RMAs were not filtering through to Elmor/Raja@ASUS they requested members in the thread to PM them so they could organize a swap out and have the board for studying. Again a fix has been released.
Prior to AGESA allowing command rate change Elmor released iterations of UEFI with 1T and 2T. The number of UEFIs I have collected is bewildering for the period the board has been out.
Then we have the situation where sometimes members on OCN ask should I get the C6H? several members will outline no and point to reviews like HardOCP, etc and not point them to user experience which has been far better IMO than those reviews. Only recently Guru3D, came out with this crud. and Source link.
Members using that article exclude the words "In my experiences" stated there. Now some members use that as the defacto experience all will get on C6H. Which is incorrect. There are numerous posts on OCN of members with Asrock/Gigabyte/MSI, etc boards which had or having issues with RAM compatibility. So all in all a mixed bag.
Then we have members stating get the Taichi, it is better. They forget to mention how many UEFI have been pants, that Buildzoid airs his frustrations on YouTube about it. Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4.
Even Chew* recommends Taichi but then excludes information which posts off/on as such linked here. Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4.
Taichi 10/10 o_O :rolleyes:.
AND you're right, there is always room for improvement. Again, you all have missed the mark. Elmor doesn't need anyone to vouch for him. He's a big boy, and has worked in this industry for longer than some of us have been into PCs. HIs name is all the vouching he needs. I'm glad you are showing support for him, but c'mon now. :wtf:
honestly, I am directly referring to ASUS customer support here in the US. Elmor is in the EU< and has nothing to do with that.
Asus RMA/Support in UK isn't the best. One reason why I got my C6H from Amazon UK as 1st year it's full refund or new board. In the past Amazon have been so great to send me xyz replacement prior to even sending the faulty item.
But how I do see it, the support on OCN does not have a barrier of region, nor does the ROG forum, Elmor also started a thread on HWBot. Language perhaps. So I do believe he has touched base with numerous customers, from various regions and from the everyday user to extreme overclocker.
As much as I like him and support him with my previous post, I also have a gripe which for me is "industry" related and affecting particular Asus board owners but not me.
The Asus Prime X370 Pro was a board I considered for purchase, but I didn't for some reasons, now I feel glad I didn't. From member shares on OCN it does not have PState OC facility, then on current latest UEFI based on AGESA 1.0.0.6 users have no access to CLDO_VDDP. Fundamentally I believe the user experience is being gimped.
There are boards the Asus Prime X370 Pro would be competing against, some lower priced and they have said features. One reason I have bought Asus board in the past is it's feature rich UEFI.
So, Premium Sound anybody ???
Yes, with the windows 10 build 14393 we had DTS working perfectly with the drivers provided by ASUS and now, no more DTS for the C6H.
So, the X370 Taichi is even more attractive now, as it is a MUCH more stable platform, has better VRM, better BIOS and DTS support. It also sells for less than the C6H with much more to offer other than LEDS and "Premium sound" that is not premium .
Yes, I am really pissed, almost to the point of hammering this board live on youtube.
rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?93551-Dolby-DTS-DD-on-Windows-10-15063-332-How-When&p=659688&viewfull=1#post659688
"premium sound" that now lacks surround over it's optical out.
What's the reason I had to purchase this board ?? Yes, Oc capabilities + Premium sound!!!
So what is exactly good about the C6H ? Leds, which I personally give 0 crap about !
What I got for $ 254 ? Eternal Beta bios status and scammed on the "Premium Sound" that is in fact NO Premium.
No other way I can call this other than SCAMMING.
So, the X370 Taichi is even more attractive now:
1- Better VRM
2- Better BIOS support
3- DTS connect - without 3 months of hassle with ASUS to end up getting scammed.
4- All that for less $ than the C6H