Harry LloydSo how will I boot from my optical drive then? o_O

If you use a proper image w/ UEFI support, then you should have no problems (e.g. any official Windows 8/10 image). I did several Windows 10 and Ubuntu EFI installations from an ODD to my semi-broken laptop (USB xHCI died on SoC, so no flash drives or any USB devices).

lexluthermiesterControl. I am not willing to surrender control of my computing devices to a third party, especially Microsoft. You may not see the downsides, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Ah yes, if the app store was the only way to install stuff I'd agree, but it isn't so I don't. :p

Hopefully this will force tool makers to support UEFI properly, instead of hanging onto MBR.

On the other hand, not a fan of forced secure boot. Until every linux distro and alternative software is capable of using it, I dont want to use locked down hardware.

SaltyFishthere are a lot more of them than us.

Exactly, so unless Microsoft goes the same way they will lose relevancy among those people who want simplicity in their lives.

SaltyFishApple's dumbing-down, hand-holding, and overpriced hardware ("Apple Tax") is absurd to us.

I would never buy a Mac, there's no question there. I want control over my hardware; I like building my own computers. When it comes to smartphones a high-end Samsung flagship phone runs just about the same cost as an iPhone. Myself, I would much rather have the iPhone since I know damn well that it will be supported over the life of the product. I also like the idea that if I have a problem with my iPhone I can walk into any Apple Store, walk up to the Genius Bar, tell them my problem, and I have a solution right then and there.

Take my brother's situation... something happened to his iPhone 7. He was out in the field as part of a military training exercise and a rather heavy rock landed on the phone which resulted in some significant damage to the screen and body of the device. He walked into the Apple Store, explained the problem, and right then and there they replaced the phone for some cost but far better than having to buy a new device outright. He got a new device that same day!!! You can't get that kind of service in the Android world, the best you can hope for is waiting 48 to 72 hours for Assurion to receive the device, process the claim, and ship you a refurbished device that you hope will work correctly since there's more than a number of horror stories where people have received dead devices from Assurion which of course starts the whole process over again. Not so with Apple, you just walk in with a problem and you walk out happy. This is how it should be, companies can learn from Apple when it comes to Customer Service!!!

SaltyFishBut it appeals to people who lack the brain cells, can't be bothered, or would rather be doing other stuff than securing their systems.

You can't say that because you don't know what people may do as their day jobs. For instance, people who are doctors, lawyers, and other various jobs that take up a good majority of their day don't want to have to deal with the complexities of computers so they just want it to work and there's no problem with that kind of thinking.

Back in the days we where free to use whatever we'd like and now more and more vendor locked in BS is popping op. MS, Intel and so on. You cant use your hardware freely nomore. It's all vendor locked in with UEFI and such.

Yes it's progression, old antic bios but that progression comes with a cost of somehow vendor lock-in, which is'nt a good thing.

When W7 becomes EOL i'm switching over to Linux. More privacy and still able to use Windows related programs by the use of Wine. I dont want a OS pushing updates or drivers which might be the culprit of a system BSOD'ing out of the blue while work is left open.

ZeDestructorProgress. Look into how MBR boot works. It's freaking BULLSHIT that we've used that piece of crap for 30 odd years essentially unchanged

UEFI can run on regular x86 (32bit), IA64 (Itanium.. where it originated from in the first place, as EFI) as well as ARM (AArch64). You could port it to MIPS, AVR, GCN, whatever if you were so inclined.

MBR sucks allright, but that's not why you need the overengineered bloatware known as EFI. Intel sold us EFI as the way to get nice GUI BIOS interfaces, "faster" boot and support for larger drives, none of which has anything to do with the design of EFI.

EFI is the Extensible Firmware Interface, intended to simplify driver development across CPU architectures and operating systems. Now, more than 10 years in, consumer products still doesn't use this feature.

EFI runs a "sub kernel" controlling all the devices of the system without the OSs knowledge, and it has network access. Not only does it use CPU resources, but also presents a huge security risks. Motherboard vendors rarely update their BIOSes after two years, and since this can't be circumvented by software, end users might be forced to upgrade fully usable hardware. EFI is the most critical piece of software in a modern system, yet its code quality is awful.

The last big issue of EFI is the "Secure" Boot, which is nothing but a headache for other operating systems.

ZeDestructorFinally, any particular reason why you didn't try a pure UEFI environment? I've had highly mixed experiences when relying on CSMs, but generally good times with pure UEFI.

We still have a long way to go for EFI to be painless. As recent as June I had to revert a bunch of new Dell systems (Skylake) to legacy mode to get hardware properly initialized.

Fine by me. I haven't had any issues with UEFI with Windows or with Linux. Support is good enough now where we might was well switch and focus on just one; the newer one. Honestly, it's better in just about every way when it comes to how the system can be managed and initialized.

FrickAh yes, if the app store was the only way to install stuff I'd agree, but it isn't so I don't. :p

But how long will it be till they try forcing it? That effort is already underway with the "S" version of Windows 10.

StrayKATWhat do you hate about it? I mean, I don't mess with it enough for it to make much difference. I set it up, and that's that. No different than a BIOS.

Formating for BIOS is a lot easier when you have to do it manually (Gentoo, Arch), and I had some low-end motherboards (what I work with most of the time) refusing to see the Windows DVD as UEFI booteable before, BIOS/CSM always works.

GoldenXFormating for BIOS is a lot easier when you have to do it manually (Gentoo, Arch), and I had some low-end motherboards (what I work with most of the time) refusing to see the Windows DVD as UEFI booteable before, BIOS/CSM always works.

Speaking of Gentoo, their minimal installation CD doesn't support UEFI boot. Go ahead and test it in a VM.

trparkyI would never buy a Mac, there's no question there. I want control over my hardware; I like building my own computers. When it comes to smartphones a high-end Samsung flagship phone runs just about the same cost as an iPhone. Myself, I would much rather have the iPhone since I know damn well that it will be supported over the life of the product. I also like the idea that if I have a problem with my iPhone I can walk into any Apple Store, walk up to the Genius Bar, tell them my problem, and I have a solution right then and there.

That has more to do with the way Apple sets up its business model extending back from the Mac days. They have full control of their market. They make their own OS and they are the only ones who make devices running it. As such, there isn't a flood of iOS smartphones and tablets because no one else is making them. And with no competition, they can take their time for the next iteration; one every year as opposed to one every six months. The support front is there to lock-in retention. Gotta keep the people on your devices (and thus your app store) especially when new shinies aren't coming out often. Microsoft's own mobile attempt did do something similar to Apple (storefronts) since they too were the only device makers of their own OS. Heck, Microsoft's indirect reach to pirates with Windows 10 is that as well; they may not have been paying Microsoft for the OS, but they were contributing to its market share dominance and the consequent benefits.

That is in contrast to Android. Google makes the OS but a lot of manufacturers make devices running it (including Google themselves). So there's a lot more models coming out and a lot more competition going on. The manufacturers also don't have storefronts. It'd be absurd; imagine if video card or motherboard manufacturers did that. Not Intel, AMD, or Nvidia. But ASUS, AsRock, Colorful, EVGA, Gigabyte, Palit, Zotac, etc. each having physical stores in a city. Android has a much larger market share than iOS, but that large market share is divided among all the Android device manufacturers. So having to do a glorified RMA/warranty claim instead of walking up to a store and processing it immediately is understandable. Though in parts of the world where phones are subsidised, you can deal with replacements via the retail stores of your phone service carrier.

The closest equivalent to Apple's service in the PC space I can think of is pre-built PC companies like Dell. And Dell's corporate support is what retains clients. Business customers needed their machines working yesterday and will pay for that support so they can... get back to business. But Dell doesn't need a physical presence since they're dealing with a level above the general public which is a much smaller and compact group.

By the way, while you would never buy a Mac, how do you feel about the control on iOS compared to Android? After the jailbreaks and roots, how do they compare?

You can't say that because you don't know what people may do as their day jobs. For instance, people who are doctors, lawyers, and other various jobs that take up a good majority of their day don't want to have to deal with the complexities of computers so they just want it to work and there's no problem with that kind of thinking.

That probably came out more harsh than I intended but I've pretty much seen the full gamut of attitudes regarding basic computer/mobile security. Some will pick it up slowly but patiently and diligently. Some do have busy jobs and/or are single parents with a bunch of young kids and ailing parents so can't spend much time on it. But others really don't have the attention span nor the cognitive ability to delve into it. Thankfully, stuff like the combination of uBlock Origin and NoScript provide good returns even with minimal investiture.

My iPhone isn't jailbroken and yet I still find it capable of doing everything that I ask of it to do and in the end that's all that really matters. As for tweaking and stuff I get my fill of that on my desktop computer.

My biggest problem with Android and the chief reason why I went to the iPhone is the appearance that the Android OEMs don't care about you past the point of you handing over your hard earned cash. Software updates have to go through your carrier and some carriers are worse than others, this of course makes it so that you may end up with a device that's a maybe a couple of months old that you spent a good amount of money on and yet you're not getting critical software updates. It would be like Microsoft telling you "Oh, your computer is six months old. No updates for you!" And why do the Android OEMs do this? They want you to buy the next new device. Why? Simply put, it all comes down to money; lots of money. The OEMs just love to rake it all in and of course the majority of the public falls for this strategy hook, line, and sinker. Meanwhile you have Apple where you're pretty much guaranteed to have software updates for at least five years which is very much like how Microsoft is treating Windows 7 which was released eight years ago.

Harry LloydSo how will I boot from my optical drive then? o_O

same way apple owners do