StrayKATUnfortunately, the Pentagon also says China is starting to train for strikes against the US. Geez. I guess this is Plan B for China.

That's not news that's reality
Every Major Power Plans and Trains against Every other power (its Called Contingency planning)
Heck even the UK plans these thing's ( Our last plan against the USA was the Deployment of Piers Morgan ..:D:roll:)
then there are the Proxy war efforts

dorsetknobOur last plan against the USA was the Deployment of Piers Morgan ..:D:roll:

That backfired. :laugh:

Caring1I wouldn't expect the Pentagon war machine to say anything else.
I guess they are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and never hypothesised an attack on China either. :rolleyes:

It managed to reached the top of headlines. Excuse me for pointing it out. :cool:

www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/politics/china-military-mission-targeting-us/index.html

www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/08/17/china-military-training-strike-us-pentagon-report/1017278002/

I'm not particularly alarmed or anything. China is remarkably peaceful as a "superpower". Moreso than the US and Russia has been at least.

Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the South China Sea. China has been taking territory for years, ships have been sunk.

China has also been predatory lending to other countries like Macedonia. TL;DR:
1) Macedonia agreed to an infrastructure project that costs more than Macedonia's economy makes in a year.
2) Macedonia was told no less than two times the project will never pay for itself in terms of economic activity.
3) China swooped in with their own reports that conflicted with #2, they offered a massive loan to start construction with two conditions: the majority of labor had to be performed by Chinese (as in forced immigration/settlement in Macedonia) and if Macedonia ever fails to make interest payments on the loan, China will own the project forever.
4) The project is about 1/3 complete and has run Macedonia into the ground.
5) Now Macedonians are protesting their government that signed a bad deal with China and collapsed their economy.

This is how China wages war: extends one hand in peace while the other hand is ready to drive a dagger in your neck.

Chinese Spending Lures Countries to Its Belt and Road Initiative

China didn't have money to do these things in the first place. It took on debt to fund the projects. The tariffs and economic instability that it brought are making China's debt load punishing because China's economy is literally powered by trade with other countries. No more stealing industry from other countries means the factories that created a middle class in China no longer have orders to produce. No orders means letting people go. People with out pay have to go back to the farms to work. Middle class is quickly turned back to impoverished. This leads to unrest. China likely has 10 contingency plans to protect the Communist Party from uprisings for every contingency plan they have for the USA.

FordGT90ConceptApparently you haven't been paying attention to the South China Sea. China has been taking territory for years, ships have been sunk.

Of course, I'm aware (I'm also Asian btw and my family has a house that might get taken over one day). I didn't say they were completely peaceful. Just in the context of superpowers. They have no overall directive to influence global affairs that way (i.e. spread communism or spread "democracy") - or at the very least, it's more insidious and not in your face.

edit: Re: Insidiousness - This is also why I hope Japan maintains their resurgence back at the economical food chain...and should just re-militarize to boot. They're the best buffer to China. Taiwan is a bust.

stimpy88USA...USA...USA...USA...

It's going to be great just how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs are coming back from China because of this...

Trade imbalance actually went up 13% since tariffs imposed ... do the math.

FordGT90ConceptApparently you haven't been paying attention to the South China Sea. China has been taking territory for years, ships have been sunk.

China has also been predatory lending to other countries like Macedonia. TL;DR:
1) Macedonia agreed to an infrastructure project that costs more than Macedonia's economy makes in a year.
2) Macedonia was told no less than two times the project will never pay for itself in terms of economic activity.
3) China swooped in with their own reports that conflicted with #2, they offered a massive loan to start construction with two conditions: the majority of labor had to be performed by Chinese (as in forced immigration/settlement in Macedonia) and if Macedonia ever fails to make interest payments on the loan, China will own the project forever.
4) The project is about 1/3 complete and has run Macedonia into the ground.
5) Now Macedonians are protesting their government that signed a bad deal with China and collapsed their economy.

This is how China wages war: extends one hand in peace while the other hand is ready to drive a dagger in your neck.

Chinese Spending Lures Countries to Its Belt and Road Initiative

China didn't have money to do these things in the first place. It took on debt to fund the projects. The tariffs and economic instability that it brought are making China's debt load punishing because China's economy is literally powered by trade with other countries. No more stealing industry from other countries means the factories that created a middle class in China no longer have orders to produce. No orders means letting people go. People with out pay have to go back to the farms to work. Middle class is quickly turned back to impoverished. This leads to unrest. China likely has 10 contingency plans to protect the Communist Party from uprisings for every contingency plan they have for the USA.

Correct. The MS media here in Australia has been reporting those very issues in recent months, especially their Belt & Road initiative. Criticisms have been made at our current federal government for questioning the value of Australian foreign aid to south pacific nations in light of China's increasing "generosity" to financial aid for those nations. It keeps Australia stuck between a rock & a hard place with our federal budget. Can't afford not to cut foreign aid in this part of the world but on the other hand our tax paying citizenry has no choice really.

Nothing surprises me about CPC, expect literally anything to hang on to power.

StrayKATThey have no overall directive to influence global affairs that way (i.e. spread communism or spread "democracy") - or at the very least, it's more insidious and not in your face.

But they do. I already gave two examples. It's very "in your face" in the nations it is happening. China is literally building Chinatowns all over Asia and Europe.

StrayKATThis is also why I hope Japan maintains their resurgence back at the economical food chain...and should just re-militarize to boot.

They are but more because of North Korea than China. Australia, Phillipines, etc. are militarizing because of China's incursions into the South China Sea.

John NaylorTrade imbalance actually went up 13% since tariffs imposed ... do the math.

Because businesses stockpiled before tariffs went into effect (surge of imports followed by a big slump). It'll be a while before a new normal is established.

FordGT90ConceptBut they do. I already gave two examples. It's very "in your face" in the nations it is happening. China is literally building Chinatowns all over Asia and Europe.


They are but more because of North Korea than China. Australia, Phillipines, etc. are militarizing because of China's incursions into the South China Sea.


Because businesses stockpiled before tariffs went into effect (surge of imports followed by a big slump). It'll be a while before a new normal is established.

Well, for the record, I'm not trying to downplay anything or saying they uphold Gandhi's values. Not at all. But I still think they're tame in context of "superpowers". Which are utterly disastrous. USA up to Kennedy was OK, but disastrous otherwise. Same as Russia. These two not only ruined countries they supposedly intended to "enrich", but they outright destroyed some in proxy wars between each other. I don't see where China is doing that yet --- but of course, they don't have the opportunity either. America still somewhat keeps them in check for now.

China didn't have the Cold War to deal with, USA and Russia did. It shaped policy for half a century.

I already gave one example: Macedonia. They were doing okay until China made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Have another example: China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (another arm of the Belt & Road Initinative) has China building a road in Pakistani territory that India occupies. They're effectively injecting themselves into a very old fued and colonizing Pakistan while they are at it. In time, these countries will become (are already becoming) proxy states.

FordGT90ConceptChina didn't have the Cold War to deal with, USA and Russia did. It shaped policy for half a century.

I already gave one example: Macedonia. They were doing okay until China made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

It kind of goes further back than that. The Cold War was an excuse. The problem is Left wing types tend to like to extend themselves. They're rarely isolationists. A lot of the current makeup of America started with Woodrow Wilson (and maybe Teddy Roosevelt) way before WW2 (and really, before WW1, since Wilson already carried this philosophy when he came into office). He felt obligated to spread "democracy" and his notion of civilization. And strangely, Wilson's influence was so deep it affected the Republicans eventually, through Neo-Cons. They were started by Irving Kristol (a leftist and Wilsonian) who supposedly dropped his party affiliations and became a Conservative. But they never truly dropped it - they kept Wilson's foreign policy ambitions of spreading Americanism.

...And we saw -- no, we see -- the results of that in the Iraq war. This is after the Cold War ended, and the same shenanigans continued under the guise of a "conservative" label. Then even after denouncing the Iraq War, another Leftist (Obama) just carried the same Wilsonian plan out once again in the Middle East. He was no different! Now Syria and Libya are complete wastelands, and others are on shaky ground at best. All of this might not be fixed for a hundred years at least.... and it had nothing to do with the Cold War.

I almost respect the Soviet's more, since they didn't obfuscate anything.. Communism has always had worldwide ambitions from the start. That starts with Marx himself.. since he was a utopian and thought this political model was the "destiny" of history or some stupid shit. Luckily, they were too limited economically to spread their taint as much they would have liked. That's what makes Americans kind of worse. They have the money to continue.

/rantoff

edit: If I sound antagonistic to America, I'm not. I am an American (err.. Asian American to be exact)... but more on the isolationist side.

USA was expansionist up until 1853. Between then and WWII, expansion was mostly based on necessity (coal stops for steamers). Between WWII and the Cold War USA projected it's power to rebuild Europe and resolve disputes to ensure WWIII doesn't come next. Cold War was about stopping the USSR from spreading influence where it doesn't belong. China is doing much the same as the USSR did but USA isn't trying to stop it like they did against USSR.

Syria, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. are all tied to the Arab Spring (mostly uprisings against dictators installed during the Cold War). Syria very much smells of Cold War proxy war but instead of being over Communism, it is about Geneva-banned chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing.

FordGT90ConceptUSA was expansionist up until 1853. Between then and WWII, expansion was mostly based on necessity (coal stops for steamers). Between WWII and the Cold War USA projected it's power to rebuild Europe and resolve disputes to ensure WWIII doesn't come next. Cold War was about stopping the USSR from spreading influence where it doesn't belong. China is doing much the same as the USSR did but USA isn't trying to stop it like they did against USSR.

Syria, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. are all tied to the Arab Spring (mostly uprisings against dictators installed during the Cold War). Syria very much smells of Cold War proxy war but instead of being over Communism, it is about Geneva-banned chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing.

Libya/Gaddafi wasn't installed because of the Cold War.. Nor was the original Assad (let alone Bashar Assad)..who was basically the same party as Saddam Hussein (Bathist.. which is more of a Pan-Islam mixed with Socialism thing). Either way, the Arab Spring was retarded. And I'm glad I saw it for what it was as it was happening. Same with Iraq. I remember the stupid documentaries instantly popping up cheering about the Arab Spring and all of the social media news. This childishly optimistic view of Democratic takeovers is the kind of disaster that I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with the Cold War, but it's as destructive all the same.

StrayKATLibya/Gaddafi wasn't installed because of the Cold War.. Nor was the original Assad (let alone Bashar Assad)..who was basically the same party as Saddam Hussein (Bathist.. which is more of a Pan-Islam mixed with Socialism thing). Either way, the Arab Spring was retarded. And I'm glad I saw it for what it was as it was happening. Same with Iraq. I remember the stupid documentaries instantly popping up cheering about the Arab Spring and all of the social media news. This childishly optimistic view of Democratic takeovers is the kind of disaster that I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with the Cold War, but it's as destructive all the same.

Better add my former country of Ukraine to that list.

StrayKATLibya/Gaddafi wasn't installed because of the Cold War.. Nor was the original Assad (let alone Bashar Assad)..who was basically the same party as Saddam Hussein (Bathist.. which is more of a Pan-Islam mixed with Socialism thing).

These were countries that were occupied in the wake of WWII. Installing minority dictators was how they aimed to maintain peace in each country because for the sake of their own survival, they had to keep the majorities at bay (either force or appeasement). It worked for decades until Bush decided to topple Hussein. People that fled Iraq sowed discontent in the places they immigrated to and so the rest fell. Bush was informed that would happen before he invaded Iraq. Perhaps that was his intent all along with Iraq becoming a model of democracy for the civil wars that follow to mirror.

Afghanistan was Cold War. The rest were mostly fallout from WWII (but so was the Cold War itself).

sepheronxBetter add my former country of Ukraine to that list.

Sorry to hear that.. :\

StrayKATSorry to hear that.. :\

It hasn't became Libya or Iraq, but whatever, my family left long before the events. 2014 was just sad to see though.

Hot off the press, another example of China waging economic war:
Empty hotels, idle boats: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

Taiwan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs says China has lured four countries to switch diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in the past two years by offering generous aid packages and investment.

“They (Chinese clients) are looking towards the next administration to improve the relationship with mainland China.”

Chinese tourists and investments -> do something politically to make China mad (like support Taiwan) -> China bans pretty much everything -> economy that was growing because of Chinese influence suddenly reverses -> nation has elections -> pro-Chinese candidate wins -> China has another puppet government that no longer recognizes Taiwan as a sovereign state

Rince and repeat. These countries are vulnerable to economic exploitation and China exploits it. It's going to take a lot more than tariffs to make China stop it. It's going to take investment funds that exceed China's capacity to invest on a condition of accepting no investment from China (aka provide a better detail that promotes freedom).

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Trade war puts new strains on America Inc's factories in China

Companies are talking about moving production to Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, United States, and India. Virtually all are talking about reevaluating their supply chain and where they manufacture.

This quote surprised me:

“Production costs are cheaper in the U.S. than in China,” said Yuan Juyou, deputy head of marketing at Wonderful Group, a ceramics maker. “Even though labor costs are more expensive, we have automated a lot of processes. Plus electricity, land, these kinds of costs are cheaper than China.”

Electricity and land is expensive in China.

“The Chinese government embraced manufacturing back in the day. But now, they’re not looking for growth in the product business. They’re looking for high-tech,” [Larry Sloven] said.

“It’s a bit like when a wife comes to a husband and says, ‘I don’t love you anymore’.”

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@btarunr here comes the US import tariffs on consumer goods:
Proposed Modification of Action Pursuant to Section 301: China's Acts, Policies, and Practices Related to Technology Transfer, Intellectual Property, and Innovation

It includes "8414.59.15 Fans used for cooling microprocessors, telecommunications equipment, or computers." 258 pages worth of tariffs that go into effect next month. The Trump administration isn't kidding around anymore.

Arpeegeeafter working in manufacturing for 10+ years I can honestly say their stuff is the absolute cheapest garbage you can get.

"cheapest garbage" Yet most of our electronics and made there and work perfectly fine.