Monday, June 3rd 2019

AMD 300-series and 400-series Motherboards to Lack PCIe Gen 4 with Ryzen 3000

Jun 3rd, 2019 00:11 Discuss (62 Comments)

This shouldn't really need to be spelled out, but AMD clarified that you can't have PCI-Express gen 4.0 running an upcoming Ryzen 3000 "Matisse" processor on older socket AM4 motherboards based on AMD 300-series and 400-series chipsets, and that the processor's PCIe root-complex will run at PCI-Express gen 3.0 speeds. AMD's official reason for this is that the older motherboards can't guarantee reliable signaling needed for PCI-Express gen 4.0 and hence the company decided to blanket-disable PCIe gen 4.0 for the older platforms. This statement was put out by Robert Hallock, senior technical marketing head for CPUs and APUs, on Reddit.

Unofficially, though, we believe there are technological barriers standing in the way of PCI-Express gen 4.0 on the older motherboards, the least of which are the lack of external PCIe gen 4.0-certified re-driver/equalizer components, and lane-switching on boards that split one x16 PEG link to two x8 links. There may be other less technical issues such as PCI-SIG certification for the older platforms. Intel faced a similar challenge with its 3rd generation Core "Ivy Bridge" processors, which introduced PCI-Express gen 3.0 to the mainstream desktop platform, and were backwards-compatible with Intel 6-series chipset (eg: Z68 Express). The older 6-series motherboards could only put out PCIe gen 2.0 with the newer processors.

Source: Robert Hallock (Reddit)

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62 Comments on AMD 300-series and 400-series Motherboards to Lack PCIe Gen 4 with Ryzen 3000

#26

nemesis.ie

@biffzinker

Navi will have it and should ship in July or maybe August.

#27

medi01

Could someone remind us of a single case, when old mainboards would start to support faster PCIe spec, just because some CPU manufacturer released a new CPU?

#28

TheLostSwede

News Editor

medi01Could someone remind us of a single case, when old mainboards would start to support faster PCIe spec, just because some CPU manufacturer released a new CPU?

To date, that has not happened afaik, as Skylake featured a new chipset and socket.
Prior to that, the chipset contained the PCIe controller.
Same is true for older technology, like AGP, PCI etc.

This is the first time it has been close to possible, but apparently not close enough.

#29

Flaky

medi01Could someone remind us of a single case, when old mainboards would start to support faster PCIe spec, just because some CPU manufacturer released a new CPU?

Yes, 6 series chipsets for 1155 platform.
i5/i7 ivy bridge cpus paired with cheap motherboards did provide 3.0 lanes to x16 slot without a problem.
The only exceptions were high-end motherboards which did implement bifurcation to split x16 link into two x8.
It required switches which were mostly not validated for 3.0 on those motherboards.

#30

Metroid

Also, there is a word, pcie 4.0 ssd's will use 8 watts or more, that is a lot of power for an ssd and that is the reason they will be coming with huge heatsinks, give time, better ssds with much lower tdp will come next year.

#31

TheLostSwede

News Editor

MetroidAlso, there is a word, pcie 4.0 ssd's will use 8 watts or more, that is a lot of power for an ssd and that is the reason they will be coming with huge heatsinks, give time, better ssds with much lower tdp will come next year.

First gen hardware maybe, as Tom's Hardware pointed out that Phison only added a PCIe 4.0 interface to their current controllers, no node shrink, no design changes.
This doesn't help keeping the thermal under control. I would expect this to improve come second gen PCIe 4.0 controllers made on a smaller node.

#32

Recus

If AMD continues to be faster then you will see more anti customer practices.

#33

Vya Domus

MetroidAlso, there is a word, pcie 4.0 ssd's will use 8 watts or more, that is a lot of power for an ssd and that is the reason they will be coming with huge heatsinks, give time, better ssds with much lower tdp will come next year.

8W is nothing and can easily be cooled passively or not even need a heatsink at all.

#34

Wavetrex

biffzinkerFrom AMD/Nvidia no, nothing yet.

That is incorrect, Lisa Su clearly stated that NAVI is a PCIe 4.0 chip.
(Yes, it's not yet "released" but it is announced, or teased)

Most likely NV has something in the works as well and we'll hear about it in a week at E3

#35

john_

So, 300 and 400 series motherboards will not support a feature that they weren't build to support it. I am speechless.

#36

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator

tiggerAre there actually any PCI-E4 devices out there yet?

Yes, plenty of M.2 PCIe gen 4.0 SSDs were announced at Computex (with availability within 2019), and AMD's upcoming RX 5000 "Navi" are PCIe gen 4.0.

#37

DonKnotts

Shouldn't the first line of the article read "This shouldn't really need to be spelled out"?

#38

Metroid

Vya Domus8W is nothing and can easily be cooled passively or not even need a heatsink at all.

I would stand by you if manufactures had not put a huge heatsink on it. So by have done that, manufactures see the huge heatsink as a counter. The same can be said about the x570 chipset, the reason they put a fan on it, is because, 11 watts, not even a huge heatsink on it can take care of that and if the pcie 4.0 sdd 8 watts was 11 watts then you would see a fan on it too.

#39

lolsop

MSI already explained it last week: X570 youtube video.

Seems the PCB needs to be a server PCB but also there are PCI 4.0 switches and signal boosters which make the signal stronger.
They already claimed AMD was going to lock this in the BIOS.

No doubt you can find an older BIOS or you can engineer your old bios to get it working. However not recommended.

#40

RH92

So we went from PCIe 4.0 to the first x16 slot should be doable on most high end 300 and 400 series boards to PCIe 4.0 is impossible ?

It's not like PCIe 4.0 is a must ( at least not for now ) but still a bit disapointed that AMD starts to pull moves like this already , this is clearly a marketing decision to boost X570 sales !

lolsopMSI already explained it last week: X570 youtube video.
Seems the PCB needs to be a server PCB but also there are PCI 4.0 switches and signal boosters which make the signal stronger.

Yes but this is to boost the signal for the rest of the PCIe slots on ATX mobos etc , peoples are not asking for PCIe 4.0 support on all slots just the first one wich should be warranted on quality 300/400 series ATX boards especially ITX ones !

#41

Tomorrow

biffzinkerNVMe SSDs have been announced to go along with your new X570 motherboard purchase. From AMD/Nvidia no, nothing yet.

AMD Navi will be the first GPU to use PCIe 4.0 this year.

Personally i don't see this as a big deal. 4.0 would have been available only on the first PCIe x16 slot anyway and only when used with 3000 series (except 3200G and 3400G Picasso Zen+ based APUs) CPU and beta BIOS. It would have been very limited in usefulness.

#42

Imsochobo

RH92So we went from PCIe 4.0 to the first x16 slot should be doable on most high end 300 and 400 series boards to PCIe 4.0 is impossible ?

It's not like PCIe 4.0 is a must ( at least not for now ) but still a bit disapointed that AMD starts to pull moves like this already , this is clearly a marketing decision to boost X570 sales !

Yes but this is to boost the signal for the rest of the PCIe slots on ATX mobos etc , peoples are not asking for PCIe 4.0 support on all slots just the first one wich should be warranted on quality 300/400 series ATX boards especially ITX ones !

AMD have never promised it'll work?
They've only promised the cpu's will work in older chipsets at the same performance
.

#43

medi01

...more anti customer practices.

#44

RH92

ImsochoboAMD have never promised it'll work?
They've only promised the cpu's will work in older chipsets at the same performance
.

Please go ahead and tell me where did i mentioned AMD promised something !

Your comment is irrelevant to my point wich is PCIe 4.0 should be pretty doable on the first slot of quality ATX boards and on ITX boards infact as someone mentioned above there where X470 boards running PCIe 4.0 at CES and if recall correctly ASUS did enabled PCIe 4.0 option for the first slot on their BIOS update for 300/400 series so yeah ...... open your eyes ! Am i saying we should blame AMD for something they didn't promise ? Of course NOT !!!

But still everything indicates that AMD had the option to either please board manufacturers or their customers , sadly they went with the first option so from a customer perspective i can only be disapointed !

#45

lexluthermiester

PLSG08Still ok as there's not a lot of Devices out there supporting PCiE Gen4.

This. And for GPU's that support PCIe3, none of them are pushing the bus to it's limits yet, so switching to PCIe4 is not something people need to be worried about. Heck, even PCIe2 is barely being utilized to it's maximum.

#46

Metroid

lexluthermiesterThis. And for GPU's that support PCIe3, none of them are pushing the bus to it's limits yet, so switching to PCIe4 is not something people need to be worried about. Heck, even PCIe2 is barely being utilized to it's maximum.

I guess they want to have bragging rights instead of performance rights and will end up with stupidity rights. x570 will likely to be over $200 for low, $300 for mid and $400 for high end. I will probably end up with a b450 $60 memory 3200mhz $100, 3700x $330, all $490, for 150 fps, trolls will end up with x570 $300, memory 4000mhz $400, 3900x $499, all $1200, for 170 fps. They will brag their 10% advantage for $700 more spent. That is how they operate.

I would get the 16 cores for $499, I guess adoretv let me down hehe, hell no, I let me down trying to believe there are fairy tales. I'm not even thinking about the 3900x at moment.

#47

Tomorrow

MetroidI guess they want to have bragging rights instead of performance rights and will end up with stupidity rights. x570 will likely to be over $200 for low, $300 for mid and $400 for high end. I will probably end up with a b450 $60 memory 3200mhz $100, 3700x $330, all $490, for 150 fps, trolls will end up with x570 $300, memory 4000mhz $400, 3900x $499, all $1200, for 170 fps. They will brag their 10% advantage for $700 more spent. That is how they operate.

That is how 9900K and to and extent 9700K users justify their purchase right now. AMD will just provide competition at the high end.

#48

Metroid

TomorrowThat is how 9900K and to and extent 9700K users justify their purchase right now. AMD will just provide competition at the high end.

Well I don't consider any 14nm cpu a justified purchased at moment. The example I gave, $500 is enough for a fair amount of performance for very little. The way things are, I dont see going high end will justify the $700 spent. I mean, the 16 cores is for next year, most pcie 4.0 products is for next year. Going high end now? and in 10 months or so your system will be already behind, the same could be said for the people who bought the 8700k and in few months after that the 9900k came up. Intel almost cannibalized its own product.

#49

Tomorrow

MetroidWell I don't consider any 14nm cpu a justified purchased at moment. The example I gave, $500 is enough for a fair amount of performance for very little. The way things are, I dont see going high end will justify the $700 spent. I mean, the 16 cores is for next year, most pcie 4.0 products is for next year. Going high end now? and in 10 months or so your system will be already behind, the same could be said for the people who bought the 8700k and in few months after that the 9900k came up. Intel almost cannibalized its own product.

That's always the case with high end. You pay massive amount of money for that last 10-20% of performance and it does not age well. Yes i agree that buying any Intel CPU now is not wise. Atleast not until we will get independent Zen2 benchmarks. Thankfully AM4 CPU prices will fall fast. Next year this 12 core will be 300$ or even less and 16 core will be less that 500 because Zen3 is coming. That's both the beauty and the curse of long term platform like AM4.

#50

Midland Dog

only reason for pcie 4 on consumer is so you can use twice as many pcie 3.0 devices as full speed, no point giving gpus more pcie bandwidth if they dont need it, see gn and there titan v test

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AMD 300-series and 400-series Motherboards to Lack PCIe Gen 4 with Ryzen 3000

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