lexluthermiesterOk, let's take that at face value, my point is still valid. There is no stopping it on a global level, so why try? Let's get on with life. We'll care for the sick as best we can(which is leaps and bounds better than decades and centuries past), we'll morn the dead and we will honor them by NOT letting a virus cripple our world or our way of life.

We aren't trying to stop it on a global level, we're way past that already... and you still miss the point. These thoughts we have are not mutually exclusive or anything... Yes, the virus will run its course and YES it will infect the larger part of the populace. The measures being taken now are not preventing any of that! What they are meant to do, is spread the infection rate across a longer period of time. How, by vastly reducing social contact we vastly reduce the chances of a new infection which in turn reduces the potential pressure on healthcare.

Capiche?

You know when the real crippling happens? When healthcare topples entirely and even your kid being run over by a car can't be taken to first aid. Corona itself isn't the killer here, another thing we agree on :) And then, consider the resulting social unrest. Plunder is always around the corner and today its closer than ever.

Vayra86We aren't trying to stop it on a global level, we're way past that already... and you still miss the point. These thoughts we have are not mutually exclusive or anything... Yes, the virus will run its course and YES it will infect the larger part of the populace. The measures being taken now are not preventing any of that! What they are meant to do, is spread the infection rate across a longer period of time. How, by vastly reducing social contact we vastly reduce the chances of a new infection which in turn reduces the potential pressure on healthcare.

Capiche?

You know when the real crippling happens? When healthcare topples entirely and even your kid being run over by a car can't be taken to first aid.

I get what you're saying. Understood you perfectly. What I'm saying is that we are well and truly past that. None of these "precautions" are going to slow it down by much.

Efforts like Taiwan closing it's boarders are not going to help, it's too late for all of that. It's a wasted effort.

lexluthermiesterIt's not as simple as that, but you make a solid point.

And you would be correct at the current moment.

Italy is an outlier. The healthcare system of China, India and several other nations were equally or even more overwhelmed and China is declaring it under control. Italy is unique for some reason that has not been identified yet. Until that reason has been identified, we can not arrive at a lucid conclusion. Therefore, the numbers you are citing can not be taken at face value. The morality rates for this new virus are not severe and do not warrant the reaction displayed and actions being taken by governments and organizations worldwide.

No, it has been identified. They didn't take it seriously.
www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/creators-behind-viral-video-of-quarantined-italians-share-coronavirus-warning-161158583.html

lexluthermiesterI get what you're saying. Understood you perfectly. What I'm saying is that we are well and truly past that. None of these "precautions" are going to slow it down by much.

Efforts like Taiwan closing it's boarders are not going to help, it's too late for all of that. It's a wasted effort.

And yet, it did. Taiwan, whose population density is 14th in the world, whereas the US and UK are in the >130s, has managed 67 infections and 1 death.

lexluthermiesterI get what you're saying. Understood you perfectly. What I'm saying is that we are well and truly past that. None of these "precautions" are going to slow it down by much.

Efforts like Taiwan closing it's boarders are not going to help, it's too late for all of that. It's a wasted effort.

Well, and for that... Italy is your example proving you wrong. They let it run amok for a few days longer than the rest of us and look where the death toll is at.

And for Taiwan, Ahhzz said it well.

AhhzzNo, it has been identified. They didn't take it seriously.
www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/creators-behind-viral-video-of-quarantined-italians-share-coronavirus-warning-161158583.html

Italy wasn't the only nation to dilly-dally about...

AhhzzAnd yet, it did. Taiwan, whose population density is 14th in the world, whereas the US and UK are in the >130s, has managed 67 infections and 1 death.

Vayra86And for Taiwan, Ahhzz said it well.

Ah but part of the equation is being missed; Taiwan is a nation of people who, like China and most other asian nations, regularly use face masks to combat the spread of such outbreaks. They did so swiftly when the news first broke. It's a simple solution that is very effective. Taiwan stockpiles masks and so they were better prepared for the situation as it developed. The rest of us need to learn from that example, instead of shutting everything down.

lexluthermiesterItaly wasn't the only nation to dilly-dally about...


Ah but part of the equation is being missed; Taiwan is a nation of people who, like China and most other asian nations, regularly use face masks to combat the spread of such outbreaks. They did so swiftly when the news first broke. It's a simple solution that is very effective. Taiwan stockpiles masks and so they were better prepared for the situation as it developed. The rest of us need to learn from that example, instead of shutting everything down.

Man, you are so far off, its unreal

hotair.com/headlines/archives/2020/02/people-really-wear-face-masks-epidemic/

You really should open up to scientific evidence a bit more from time to time. Face masks are an extremely minor influence in preventing or fighting this. 'They stockpiled masks so they do better'... really, man? How does that coincide with the numbers in the West that are progressing in the exact same way through this without masks as in Asia? Or very often, as is the case over here, quite a bit better too? Even today if you are wearing a mask in public you're the odd one out.

Now a touch of reality again... the real reason these countries managed to get a handle on it fast is, for China: Its a totalitarian state and government with very low privacy or freedom of choice. You walk in line and that's that. For Taiwan: they directly responded with rigorous testing, tracing and personal/home quarantine.

Face masks are not mentioned anywhere as a contributor to reducing the infection. That only counts for those that are already infected... but guess what, in that case everybody tells you to stay inside regardless.

Vayra86You really should open up to scientific evidence a bit more from time to time. Face masks are an extremely minor influence in preventing or fighting this.

When was the last time you saw a surgical team or medical team treating an infected patient that did not have face masks? Hmm? Here's a hint, never! They have been standard practice for more than 100 years wolrdwide as they have proven to be very effective at preventing transmission of bacteria and virii. Face masks are very effective. They're cheap and easy to use.

lexluthermiesterItaly wasn't the only nation to dilly-dally about...


Ah but part of the equation is being missed; Taiwan is a nation of people who, like China and most other asian nations, regularly use face masks to combat the spread of such outbreaks. They did so swiftly when the news first broke. It's a simple solution that is very effective. Taiwan stockpiles masks and so they were better prepared for the situation as it developed. The rest of us need to learn from that example, instead of shutting everything down.

Scientists and doctors all over the world have stated wearing masks, unless they're properly fitted, specialty masks, do not stop the spread of COVID19. Taiwan's "stockpiled masks" really had nothing to do with their success managing the crisis.

www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-taiwan-can-teach-world-fighting-coronavirus-n1153826

They activated the SARS era temperature sensors at all ports on Jan 29. They have single-payer health care, so when someone needed testing, they didn't say "Aw, it's too expensive, I'll be ok...", they got tested. Likewise, if they tested positive and needed care, they went into the hospital for 14 days, costs covered by their insurance. If they needed quarantine only, they quarantined under penalty of a hefty fine ($10,000), monitored by their phones. They did many things that we are only thinking about doing now, and they did them quickly.

lexluthermiesterWhen was the last time you saw a surgical team or medical team treating an infected patient that did not have face masks? Hmm? Here's a hint, never! They have been standard practice for than 100 years as they have proven to be very effective at preventing transmission of bacteria and virii. Face masks are very effective. They're cheap and easy to use.

Oh man... where do we start. Please just stop already, you're starting to look like you just woke up yesterday and COVID-19 is new to you.



Medical workers use (surgical) masks for entirely different reasons to begin with. And the standard issue N95 3M masks you might think of (pic on right) are for airborne hazards. COVID-19 is not an airborne hazard, there are no particles you are reasonably filtering out.

I think its high time you start educating yourself.

I'm not sure what to think about the face masks. The common dust masks everyone is buying up surely won't do much good... and they're rather uncomfortable. I went through some training about proper respiratory protection when I worked for an industrial cleaning place. The paper dust mask helps protect against most dust, but it's rather uncomfortable and not as effective as some other things. On the other hand, you have half-face or full-face respirators, which are more comfortable and do a better job against dust with the basic dust filter, but there are also other filters designed to guard against serious chemicals that can be deadly in high amounts.

My last job at a recycling place was really, really dusty and I became concerned enough about it to buy one of these on my own. It worked great and I wasn't coughing up black shit anymore, but I'm not sure how well it would protect against the virus... viruses aren't dust, after all. On the other hand, I see some flawed logic behind the statement that masks only help if the person wearing the mask is sick, as it reduces the chance they might infect someone else. If that's the case, surely if a healthy person wears one, it can also cut down on their chance of being infected, yeah? :kookoo:

Vayra86Oh man... where do we start. Please just stop already, you're starting to look like you just woke up yesterday and COVID-19 is new to you.

Medical workers use (surgical) masks for entirely different reasons to begin with. And the standard issue N95 3M masks you might think of (pic on right) are for airborne hazards. COVID-19 is not an airborne hazard, there are no particles you are reasonably filtering out.

I think its high time you start educating yourself.

Sure it is. It's not just airborne. It can also survive on surfaces for a while... so if you wash your hands in a public bathroom, as soon as you turn the water off (if you don't use a paper towel or something to touch the handle) you're picking up whatever might be on that handle... and then your eye gets itchy and you have the corona, plus whatever else...

hatI'm not sure what to think about the face masks. The common dust masks everyone is buying up surely won't do much good... and they're rather uncomfortable. I went through some training about proper respiratory protection when I worked for an industrial cleaning place. The paper dust mask helps protect against most dust, but it's rather uncomfortable and not as effective as some other things. On the other hand, you have half-face or full-face respirators, which are more comfortable and do a better job against dust with the basic dust filter, but there are also other filters designed to guard against serious chemicals that can be deadly in high amounts.

My last job at a recycling place was really, really dusty and I became concerned enough about it to buy one of these on my own. It worked great and I wasn't coughing up black shit anymore, but I'm not sure how well it would protect against the virus... viruses aren't dust, after all. On the other hand, I see some flawed logic behind the statement that masks only help if the person wearing the mask is sick, as it reduces the chance they might infect someone else. If that's the case, surely if a healthy person wears one, it can also cut down on their chance of being infected, yeah? :kookoo:

The only thing you reasonably prevent is your own sneezing, the tiny particles of liquid contain the virus. But there are more ways liquid leaves your body ;)

Everything else... we sweat everywhere and wearing a face mask is certainly not reducing that. So whatever you think you're doing, its not working and probably counterproductive if you think it will reduce your chance of spreading infection (if you could be infected but are not sure, which goes for the vast majority of us by now.... yes you too). You should try wearing a closed face mask for a few hours. Certainly not a way to relax.

Also, the statement about face masks does not mix too well with the statement that 'everyone gets it anyway and we should just let it go', does it... :) The face mask is clearly being used as a shitty excuse to keep doing as you do despite all common sense saying otherwise. That is what I mean with tiptoeing the reality people don't like... Another reason for face masks is psychological. You think you've got some sort of defense.

There was something put out by some authority that face masks can help reduce the spread if infected people wear it. Not necessarily my own opinion, and some of the statements you've made are some reasons why I may have an opinion that differs from theirs...

hatThere was something put out by some authority that face masks can help reduce the spread if infected people wear it. Not necessarily my own opinion, and some of the statements you've made are some reasons why I may have an opinion that differs from theirs...

I did see something about that as well, but it also indicated that as soon as the mask got moist (from vapor in your breath), it was rendered effectively useless for that purpose as well, so they were only good for short exposure times.

AhhzzI did see something about that as well, but it also indicated that as soon as the mask got moist (from vapor in your breath), it was rendered effectively useless for that purpose as well, so they were only good for short exposure times.

It depends on the mask, how it's made and what it's for. Masks of certain types will last 12 to 16 hours depending on certain conditions and are considered appropriate for a standard work day.

lexluthermiesterIt depends on the mask, how it's made and what it's for. Masks of certain types will last 12 to 16 hours depending on certain conditions and are considered appropriate for a standard work day.

Scratch that, I'll tone it down.

Frankly, I think it will be good for the world mentality to be forced to take a break. Read. Explore nature (your backyard, lol). Maybe find some time to remember the world doesn't revolve around you.

Now, the global markets and economies, this is no bueno. The world is primed with gasoline and waiting for a spark.

Please remember to keep things civil without personal attacks, everyone. We're all going to be spending more time online, here included, so we don't need to increase toxicity here as well. thanks!

lexluthermiesterBut they can be easily controlled. Masks, gloves, teaching proper personal sanitation methods are all that is needed to rope this in, that and letting it run it's course. This isn't an "end of the world" virus. It's just another in a long series of illnesses that nature has inflicted upon us. It too shall pass. Many will get sick, most will recover, a few will die. This is human life, as it always has been. This is not a reason to panic and cancel "all the things".

I guess you will not be involved with the management of the "few" that will die and the impact on those immediately impacted like family , friends and healthcare workers. So how many deaths of the vulnerable are you comfortable with. Any wisdom you would like to impart to those that will have to make decisions on who will live and who will be a part of the "few" over the next couple of months as we run out of medical resources to cope?

moproblems99Frankly, I think it will be good for the world mentality to be forced to take a break. Read. Explore nature (your backyard, lol). Maybe find some time to remember the world doesn't revolve around you.

Now, the global markets and economies, this is no bueno. The world is primed with gasoline and waiting for a spark.

The second one is an interesting question. If there is any good to come out of this I really do hope it will be us reconsidering what is vital to us and what is not. Makes those choices towards climate a whole lot easier.

On a personal level, the economy in recession will hurt, but this I think will and should also be part of the question of how we readjust things in the future. Base income comes to mind, once more... What we see now is how different social welfare systems in the world react to real trouble, its a valuable lesson to be learned.

Vayra86On a personal level, the economy in recession will hurt, but this I think will and should also be part of the question of how we readjust things in the future. Base income comes to mind, once more... What we see now is how different social welfare systems in the world react to real trouble, its a valuable lesson to be learned.

Agreed there. I think the bigger variable is management (or lack of). The best system in the world may not be able to cope with mismanagement.

For instance, I don't think the US can cope with socialism. The population and socioeconomic problems we have are real. Although we aren't truly capitalists either. We are this weird mix in the middle. Much like our healthcare, which does suck. The US does have a long way to go and I think Covid will definitely kick things into gear. Whether that is good or bad, who knows.

Cant blame them for what they are doing. The US has as well.

moproblems99Agreed there. I think the bigger variable is management (or lack of). The best system in the world may not be able to cope with mismanagement.

For instance, I don't think the US can cope with socialism. The population and socioeconomic problems we have are real. Although we aren't truly capitalists either. We are this weird mix in the middle. Much like our healthcare, which does suck. The US does have a long way to go and I think Covid will definitely kick things into gear. Whether that is good or bad, who knows.

Socialism is communism and is bad for everyone.

eidairaman1Socialism is communism and is bad for everyone.

I don't know. There are some European countries that will beg to differ. You have to do it all the way if you are gonna do it successfully. Not this back and forth tug of war bullshit that had left us with this Frankenstein goop we have.

Vayra86I agree. But dampening the pressure on health care certainly is, and isolation > controlled exposure is a means to that.

And the importance of it is seen in my state. We are 7 days from over-burdening the Louisiana health system at the rate it is growing. In New Orleans that point will be reached in less than a week. I make that point without any hysteria. It’s simply the point at which our deaths will rapidly climb to match the infection rate.

lexluthermiesterAnd? It's not the end of the world and isolation is not the answer.

I wonder what your opinion would be working in a hospital right now. It might not be the answer as far as making it "go away" but it's grinding healthcare systems to the ground. That's not good for anyone.