Tuesday, August 18th 2020

A Battle Royale for the Ages: Apple Announces Decision to Remove Unreal Engine from iOS and Mac Tools; Epic Games Responds With Another Lawsuit

Aug 18th, 2020 09:53 Discuss (87 Comments)

The epic (ahem) battle between Epic Games and Apple is becoming increasingly nastier, as Apple has communicated to the game and game engine developers that it plans on terminating all of Epic developer accounts on its ecosystem (both on iOS or MacOS) by August 28th. If done, this would impede not only Epic from developing for these systems, but also would impact any and all companies that actually employ the Unreal Engine in their development process, be it final or merely as a toolbox. It's case to say that Apple has its finger firmly set on the big, red button.

This move from Apple comes in wake of the calculated feud initiated by Epic Games last week with both Google and Apple. What some may have failed to see is that the Epic Games move was a coordinated, well-thought-out one, in that the company knew - or thought they knew - the full ramifications of what they were setting in motion. Epic Games, with its newfound budget and clout, is looking to become a banner for developers, spearheading a charge that is looking to brunt the walled garden approach. In fact, the company is even looking to form a "coalition of Apple critics", and is looking for companies to join its bandwagon in fighting against the Apple walled-garden and middle-man approach to software distribution.

One company that has already thrown its hat in the ring with Epic, albeit in the most non-committal way possible (via words), is Spotify, who said that:

We applaud Epic Games' decision to take a stand against Apple and shed further light on Apple's abuse of its dominant position. Apple's unfair practices have disadvantaged competitors and deprived consumers for far too long. The stakes for consumers and app developers large and small couldn't be higher and ensuring that the iOS platform operates competitively and fairly is an urgent task with far-reaching implications.

The app store philosophy levies heavy fees towards all developers simply for software distribution, arguably under the guise of "consumer safety and a consistent experience". The move by Epic Games to host a video called "Nineteen Eighty-Fortnite," parodying Apple's iconic "1984" ad was a clearly a prepared response to Apple's predictable decision to remove Fortnite from the Apple Store, as was the swift lawsuit launched against Apple. Epic Games is also taking advantage of its newfound public opinion weight conquered with its consumer and developer-friendly Epic Games Store, its perceived standing in the industry, as well as its pedigree as developer of the hugely popular Unreal Engine and Fortnite game. These have culminated in the launch of a social-media campaign against Apple with the hashtag #freefortnite.

Epic Games, of course, says that Apple is overreaching with this decision to remove Unreal Engine developer access and accounts, threatening to terminate a non-related business asset from Epic that has never breached any of Apple's regulations. According to the lawsuit, "Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic's entire business in unrelated areas. Left unchecked, Apple's actions will irreparably damage Epic's reputation among Fortnite users and be catastrophic for the future of the separate Unreal Engine business."

Epic is seeking preliminary injunctive relief (which would freeze Apple's decision before an actual judgment is reached in court), which it says is necessary to prevent its business from being irreparably harmed. The company also asks that Fortnite be returned to the App Store with the direct payment option added last week (and which set in motion this particular chain of events) still in place.

In a statement to Bloomberg's Mark Gurman, regarding Epic's developer account termination, Apple said:

AppleThe App Store is designed to be a safe and trusted place for users and a great business opportunity for all developers. Epic has been one of the most successful developers on the App Store, growing into a multibillion dollar business that reaches millions of iOS customers around the world. We very much want to keep the company as part of the Apple Developer Program and their apps on the Store. The problem Epic has created for itself is one that can be easily remedied if they submit an update of their app that reverts it to comply with the guidelines they agreed to and which apply to all developers. We won't make an exception for Epic because we don't think it's right to put their business interests ahead of the guidelines that protect our customers.

Tim Sweeney himself describes Epic Games' Stance as thus:

Tim SweeneyAt the most basic level, we're fighting for the freedom of people who bought smartphones to install apps from sources of their choosing, the freedom for creators of apps to distribute them as they choose, and the freedom of both groups to do business directly.

Sources: Epic Games Newsroom via Twitter, via TechSpot, MacRumors, MacRumors on Spotify

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87 Comments on A Battle Royale for the Ages: Apple Announces Decision to Remove Unreal Engine from iOS and Mac Tools; Epic Games Responds With Another Lawsuit

#51

medi01

Chrispy_violated those terms

It's about assessment of what is going on.
It is about TOS of Apple having merit in certain cases.
Of us, as humans, finding that kind of shit (developer doesn't get 30% refunded by apple App Store, when customer ask for refund) acceptable.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, Apple can print it's TOS (making it even more outrages than it is now, why the heck not) with some golden ink on an expensive paper.
Roll it into a compact roll.
And shove it where Rockefeller was told to shove his totally legal company.

CrackongI am telling you if they do not take cuts from in-game purchases it means 100% profit goes to developer if it is a freemium game.

Having things on your platform makes it more attractive to customer.
I would find it appropriate to request LARGE installables, that might cost quite a bit to host, to fuck off or pay a bit.

That is not what Apple is about though. Apple wants a cut even from SUBSCRIPTION paid to third parties.
Spotify is supposed to be forever paying Apple, for one of his users having downloaded its app (how big it is, 30Mb?) via Apple store.

That is not even remotely fair/adequate/good for consumers.

#52

kapone32

So now the scourge of PC Gaming forums has found it's way into US corporate court? A power play definitely but like the Borg Epic (or China) they have assimilated their business model and now are one of the most powerful and objectively rewarding platforms for Gaming. I do feel sorry for MAC users that like to PC Game on the side.

#53

Crackong

medi01Having things on your platform makes it more attractive to customer.
I would find it appropriate to request LARGE installables, that might cost quite a bit to host, to fuck off or pay a bit.

That is not what Apple is about though. Apple wants a cut even from SUBSCRIPTION paid to third parties.
Spotify is supposed to be forever paying Apple, for one of his users having downloaded its app (how big it is, 30Mb?) via Apple store.

That is not even remotely fair/adequate/good for consumers.

No

Apple (and Google) are private companies.
The 30% cut and all the other restrictions might not be ethical, but somebody has to pay the bills.
And sometimes it is just about the %, not the practice itself.
Nobody is gonna do it for Free.

Also,

This is about EPIC violated the terms they agreed and signed with Apple and Google.
And tried to named themselves as some kind of "Saviour" of the industry.
Then weaponized the fan base (mostly kids) to defend them.
Their move is clearly planned and staged.
And they are having what they deserved - a complete lock down.

#54

demian_vi

CrackongNo

Apple (and Google) are private companies.
The 30% cut and all the other restrictions might not be ethical, but somebody has to pay the bills.
And sometimes it is just about the %, not the practice itself.
Nobody is gonna do it for Free.

Also,

This is about EPIC violated the terms they agreed and signed with Apple and Google.
And tried to named themselves as some kind of "Saviour" of the industry.
Then weaponized the fan base (mostly kids) to defend them.
Their move is clearly planned and staged.
And they are having what they deserved - a complete lock down.

Which bills are you talking about? Spotify pays for its servers and has to pay the bill, why should Apple get their 30%? Spotify could distribute its app on its own if Applo allowed it. And again would you like if Microsoft was taking 30% of everything that you access through Windows like Netflix, Steam etc? If what Apple does is so costly they should allow other stores in iOS and prove it, I bet other stores won't be able to do what Apple does while taking only 12% right?

You people should stop attacking Epic any chance you get because China/Steam/exclusives etc etc
I bet that if Apple would let other stores in iOS and Steam opened one you would welcome the 30% competition, but you would hate Epic's 12% competition

#55

josephnunn

Apple is planning their own gaming engine to be released in the next couple months, got to remove competitors before it would look bad.

#56

Renald

Chrispy_Congratulations on applying Godwin's Law.

But yes, I am for real. This is a lawsuit - and by law Epic is the guilty party here. Epic are using Apple's property and agreed to Apple's terms. Epic violated those terms and were kicked off the platform. If they want to use the platforms that Apple or Google created, they need to abide by Apple or Google's rules. It's one of the few cases where something is actually pretty black and white, legally.

Let's say I build something unique that you want to use. I agree to let you use it if you follow my rules, but you break those rules, so I stop you from using my thing.

That is all this is; Sweeny at Epic is throwing a tantrum because he doesn't like the rules. It doesn't matter that Apple and Google are greedy and it doesn't matter if you or I like or dislike Apple or Google. Their rules are binding, legally. Unless Sweeney has found a technicality in the agreements he signed with Apple and Google that prove Apple and Google broke the terms of their contracts first, Sweeny/Epic are at legal fault here. Like I said before, black-and-white certainty that Sweeny will lose his lawsuit because he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I can only assume that Sweeny hopes the publicity of this (losing) case is enough to poke a wider anti-competitive investigation into the Google/Apple ecosystems. That, however is tentative at best, and unrelated to this particular pair of lawsuits against Apple and Google.

Godwin point was earned pretty fast indeed ^^

I must add : some companies, not to name Huawei or Xiaomi, where kicked out from using Android system, which is far worse.
How they responded ? They built their own OS (still progressing AFAIK), to avoid any kind of pressure from US companies.

Epic didn't like the way things were, mostly with Apple (rich kids have an iPhone, not a poor Android :D )
What did they do : they broke the contract they signed, willingly, and tried to make a case as a defender of all developers. The truth is that they wanted to be free from the rules, and become one them : making the rules. Ego and greed. Not fairness. Not from them, not like that.
But as said before, Google and Apple built their own stuff : hardware and software. It's their creation. You don't like it, you can build your own. Nobody will stop you.

And to complete the assessment that Epic is not taking cuts, they are even taking cuts on the store in-game when by-passing. The screen is on the other thread, first page I think (not from me).
You could either spend 10$ on in-app payment or 8$ with direct payment to Epic. That's not 30% down AFAIK !!!! they are even taking a cut of their own. What a joke !

If I was to remake that short story and act like a smart one (not like a lazy kid trying to think he can pressure a service not owned), I would do that :
-Either remove the App from the App store or changing prices, letting know what goes to Apple and what goes to them.
-Distribute an apk for Android and let people use the one from the store. It won't be long until people make the switch.
-Create a Wallet on EGS to put some in-game coins(tokens) bought on the EGS, feeding your Fornite account, and avoid the 30% (I think it's not against the rules, not sure though).

#57

INSTG8R

Vanguard Beta Tester

demian_viWhich bills are you talking about? Spotify pays for its servers and has to pay the bill, why should Apple get their 30%? Spotify could distribute its app on its own if Applo allowed it. And again would you like if Microsoft was taking 30% of everything that you access through Windows like Netflix, Steam etc? If what Apple does is so costly they should allow other stores in iOS and prove it, I bet other stores won't be able to do what Apple does while taking only 12% right?

You people should stop attacking Epic any chance you get because China/Steam/exclusives etc etc
I bet that if Apple would let other stores in iOS and Steam opened one you would welcome the 30% competition, but you would hate Epic's 12% competition

Steam takes a 30% Cut and so does MS and Google and etc etc.

#58

Crackong

demian_viWhich bills are you talking about? Spotify pays for its servers and has to pay the bill, why should Apple get their 30%? Spotify could distribute its app on its own if Applo allowed it. And again would you like if Microsoft was taking 30% of everything that you access through Windows like Netflix, Steam etc? If what Apple does is so costly they should allow other stores in iOS and prove it, I bet other stores won't be able to do what Apple does while taking only 12% right?

You people should stop attacking Epic any chance you get because China/Steam/exclusives etc etc
I bet that if Apple would let other stores in iOS and Steam opened one you would welcome the 30% competition, but you would hate Epic's 12% competition

I said :

And sometimes it is just about the %, not the practice itself.

You agreed to the practice, and someone just want more cut.

And

EPIC broke the T&C they agreed and signed.
So they deserved being removed.

Please stop trying to sway the focus to some "China/Steam/exclusives" things, as they are not relevant to the topic.

#59

demian_vi

CrackongI said :

You agreed to the practice, and someone just want more cut.

And

EPIC broke the T&C they agreed and signed.
So they deserved being removed.

Please stop trying to sway the focus to some "China/Steam/exclusives" things, as they are not relevant to the topic.

Everyone gets a cut to resell stuff, you just want Apple to take the cut they arbitrarily decided from everything sold on iOS, while I want competition, more stores, less cut for he sellers and more for the developers and eventually lower prices for us.

CrackongEpic Game Store ?
Nope, Just Nope.

You are definitely NOT biased...

INSTG8RSteam takes a 30% Cut and so does MS and Google and etc etc.

How does Microsoft takes a cut on you Spotify sub or Fortnite skins (like Apple does) when you listen/play on Windows? And Steam might be getting a cut but it's your conscious decision to buy from them, you can easily buy from the publisher, buy a physical copy or from another store with less cut (even most people prefer the bigger cut this days)

RenaldAnd to complete the assessment that Epic is not taking cuts, they are even taking cuts on the store in-game when by-passing. The screen is on the other thread, first page I think (not from me).
You could either spend 10$ on in-app payment or 8$ with direct payment to Epic. That's not 30% down AFAIK !!!! they are even taking a cut of their own. What a joke.

noone says that Epic doesn't take a cut, they are however taking a cut below market price and you are free to go elsewhere if you don't like their cut or prices,you can't do that on iOS.
Is baffling that someone prefers to pay 10$ for something instead of 8$

#60

Crackong

demian_viEveryone gets a cut to resell stuff, you just want Apple to take the cut they arbitrarily decided from everything sold on iOS, while I want competition, more stores, less cut for he sellers and more for the developers and eventually lower prices for us.

The fact is

EPIC agreed and signed the contact to use all services Apple Store (and Google store) provided.
In that contract the cuts and restrictions are clearly stated.
They violated the contract T&C, in order to get more cut for them.
Launched a planned commercial targeting one of the platform provider.
And deliberately trying to package themselves as some kind of Saviour of the game industry.

It is not about how many % Apple (and Google) gets in every transaction.
It is not about if the T&C were ethical or abusive.
It is not even about competition, since the 30% cut applies to every App developer on the platform.

It is just about EPIC breaking the contracts they signed.
And how EPIC is trying to weaponize its fan base (mostly kids) to defend its illegal actions.

#61

medi01

CrackongApple (and Google) are private companies.

So was The Standard Oil.

CrackongNobody is gonna do it for Free.

Nobody is asking to do "it" for free, what a dumb strawman.

Crackongterms they agreed

1) Stop repeating dead argument, nobody has ever challenged that something violates rules that Apple made up
2) Google is not even remotely as filthy, they don't get 30% cut when customer refunds, they don't ask for eternal subscription cut either, stop mentioning them both in one sentence.

CrackongIt is not about if the T&C were ethical or abusive.

That is exactly what it is about.
Laws are written based on higher level principles of fairness and customer interests, it's not a gospel that somehow appeared in this world out of blue.

#62

Chrispy_

medi01It's about assessment of what is going on.
It is about TOS of Apple having merit in certain cases.
Of us, as humans, finding that kind of shit (developer doesn't get 30% refunded by apple App Store, when customer ask for refund) acceptable.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, Apple can print it's TOS (making it even more outrages than it is now, why the heck not) with some golden ink on an expensive paper.
Roll it into a compact roll.
And shove it where Rockefeller was told to shove his totally legal company.

Look, I'm not a lawyer, but I have dealt with contract law with lawyers twice in the last 20 years once in a technical advisory sense and once as a defendant so at least I have a vague idea of the legal specifics going on here.

It is painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea how contract law works. I'm not trying to take sides in this argument, I have no real incentive to support any of the players involved, and I don't really care about the outcome of this case either way.

I'm simply telling you that Epic are the only party at fault in their own lawsuit. Stop and let that sink in for a second, because the contract law these lawsuits are based on really only deals with who is at fault. It's not a moral/ethics investigation nor the thin end of a wedge to open up an antitrust case with one of the regulatory bodies.

Epic know they are going to lose and they are doing it for the publicity - that's the only sane hypothesis I can come up with.

#63

Crackong

medi01So was The Standard Oil.

Nobody is asking to do "it" for free, what a dumb strawman.

1) Stop repeating dead argument, nobody has ever challenged that something violates rules that Apple made up
2) Google is not even remotely as filthy, they don't get 30% cut when customer refunds, they don't ask for eternal subscription cut either, stop mentioning them both in one sentence.

That is exactly what it is about.
Laws are written based on higher level principles of fairness and customer interests, it's not a gospel that somehow appeared in this world out of blue.

As I said before

Exaggerated wordings won't strengthen your point, if there is any.

Please do not mix things up.

None of your statements could justify the illegal actions taken by EPIC.
They broke the T&C they agreed and signed with Apple (and Google).
EPIC violated the contract law.

Anything after that are just smokescreen and excuses made up by EPIC.

Apple (and Google) 's T&C might be harsh and non-ethical.

But 2 wrongs don't make a right.
None of those could justify EPIC's illegal actions.

#64

Imouto

Chrispy_Epic know they are going to lose and they are doing it for the publicity - that's the only sane hypothesis I can come up with.

Everyone does know this except for the Epic diehards and romantics with wishful thinking of a better world where multibillion companies stand behind their interests and justice departments would act on morals and ethics instead of the actual law.

#65

Chrispy_

ImoutoEveryone does know this except for the Epic diehards and romantics with wishful thinking of a better world where multibillion companies stand behind their interests and justice departments would act on morals and ethics instead of the actual law.

Heh. The only way any company can become a multi-billion company is by exploiting everyone and everything for the absolute maximum they can get away with. They don't have anyone's back outside of the shareholders, and that even excludes most of their own employees!

#66

InVasMani

Let the tournament begin...

#67

mbeeston

why is everyone calling it a "cut" when it's not, it looks like a markup the customer pays,does't seem to be taking anything from the developer, it added the 30% to what the costumer pays. seems developers loses nothing.you can even see it in the screen shots of the stores.
.

#68

R0H1T

RenaldI must add : some companies, not to name Huawei or Xiaomi, where kicked out from using Android system, which is far worse.
How they responded ? They built their own OS (still progressing AFAIK), to avoid any kind of pressure from US companies.

Never happened, still hasn't happened as Huawei is promising they'll support the OS updates even after the licensing extension expires this month(?) IIRC.

As for Xiaomi you do know they use their own UI, skin & apps much like Samsung, LG et al, completely based on Android?

#69

demian_vi

mbeestonwhy is everyone calling it a "cut" when it's not, it looks like a markup the customer pays,does't seem to be taking anything from the developer, it added the 30% to what the costumer pays. seems developers loses nothing.you can even see it in the screen shots of the stores.
.

because there's a cut going to Apple from the 10$. You as an end user you are better of paying 8$ instead of 10$

R0H1TNever happened, still hasn't happened as Huawei is promising they'll support the OS updates even after the licensing extension expires this month(?) IIRC.

As for Xiaomi you do know they use their own UI, skin & apps much like Samsung, LG et al, completely based on Android?

Xiaomi phones come with Google Services preinstalled

#70

Crackong

mbeestonwhy is everyone calling it a "cut" when it's not, it looks like a markup the customer pays,does't seem to be taking anything from the developer, it added the 30% to what the costumer pays. seems developers loses nothing.you can even see it in the screen shots of the stores.
.

In this Fortnite case
If the 30% cut from Apple / Google is removed, the developer gets $6.993
EPIC violated the contract they agreed and sign with both storefronts, and trying to get an extra 10% (Total $7.99) into their pockets.

#71

mbeeston

demian_vibecause there's a cut going to Apple from the 10$. You as an end user you are better of paying 8$ instead of 10$

you don't know the difference between a "mark up" and a "cut" do you?
a cut would be them taking money out of the $7.99
a mark up is adding on top of the $7.99 so the final price is $9.99 now, just like every store in exsistance.
either way, the full $7.99 was going to epic, not less then hat.

#72

R0H1T

demian_viXiaomi phones come with Google Services preinstalled

Yeah except the other person said Android & if you're familiar with the two Android ≠ Google play services, besides the poster was wrong on two counts including Xiaomi as you know already has full access to the suite of Google ~~spyware~~ services.

#73

ExcuseMeWtf

mbeestonwhy is everyone calling it a "cut" when it's not, it looks like a markup the customer pays,does't seem to be taking anything from the developer, it added the 30% to what the costumer pays. seems developers loses nothing.you can even see it in the screen shots of the stores.
.

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/cut_2

a share of something, usually money:

The "cut" here is 30% of purchase that goes to Apple, or in this case around $3.00. Whether it costs less considering other methods of purchase is irrelevant.

Even moreso, because developers "lose nothing" either way. This is virtual currency that can be arbitrarily created at any point in any amounts Epic pleases, and they can charge arbitrary amount of real world money for that.

$7.99 they charge for direct purchase is still "a markup the customer pays". They could price it at $0.01 if they so chose. If anything, they get MORE from direct purchase, because 30% Apple's cut would leave them at around $7.00.

#74

mbeeston

ExcuseMeWtfdictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/cut_2

The "cut" here is 30% of purchase that goes to Apple, or in this case around $3.00. Whether it costs less considering other methods of purchase is irrelevant.

Even moreso, because developers "lose nothing" either way. This is virtual currency that can be arbitrarily created at any point in any amounts Epic pleases, and they can charge arbitrary amount of real world money for that.

$7.99 they charge for direct purchase is still "a markup the customer pays". They could price it at $0.01 if they so chose. If anything, they get MORE from direct purchase, because 30% Apple's cut would leave them at around $7.00.

really? becuase 30% of the $8 is about $2.40 and that's around what apple ADDED to the price.

but lets say your right, and it's 30% including of what apple added, then that would make the cut to the developer around 8-9%
which is now less then what epic takes.

so what is epics point in "doing this for developers" now?

#75

Renald

R0H1TNever happened, still hasn't happened as Huawei is promising they'll support the OS updates even after the licensing extension expires this month(?) IIRC.

As for Xiaomi you do know they use their own UI, skin & apps much like Samsung, LG et al, completely based on Android?

Never heard of HarmonyOS ? And the problem is not Android but the Play Store access.

And even if Xiaomi is not yet kicked out, it may happen.

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A Battle Royale for the Ages: Apple Announces Decision to Remove Unreal Engine from iOS and Mac Tools; Epic Games Responds With Another Lawsuit

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A Battle Royale for the Ages: Apple Announces Decision to Remove Unreal Engine from iOS and Mac Tools; Epic Games Responds With Another Lawsuit

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