tabascosauzBenched a little while ago on either I think AGESA 1100C or 1200 - the more casual games I play on my HTPC benefit massively (25-40%) between DDR4-2133 and DDR4-3600, but literally zero difference between 3600 16-16-16, 4000 16-16-16 and 4200 17-18-18. Tell me that's still a memory bottleneck...it's the Vega 7 that is constantly pegged.

And no, they're not CPU-bound in the slightest. One of them is 60-fps hardcoded and how it behaves on my 5900X, now *that's* CPU bound.

Starting to sound like a broken record, but while it's a given that 2133 to 3600 is going to be a huge difference, up where the IF limit of these new APUs actually lies it really appears that AMD needs to either give back our CUs or give us RDNA.

Renoir is based on Zen 2, and I am not sure if running anything higher than 3600 will result in a regression in performance unless you can push the Infinity Fabric above the 1800 Mhz that it operates. No expert in this, so can't comment.

tabascosauzLiterally no one talked about Intel in that post, nor did anyone claim that UHD750 is anything but shit. Literally nobody. The desktop distinction was to make sure 3200 JEDEC SO-DIMMs wouldn't be used as a lazy example of "bandwidth starved".

AMD's only objective for Cezanne was to gain mobile marketshare. The Zen 3 cores will do that when paired with RTX 30 mobile. Result? Renoir + Zen 3.

Renoir was pretty reasonably priced, grey market non-warranty notwithstanding. I wonder if this gen whether retail or grey market will see APUs being introduced to scalpers for the first time. I hope not.

So then what is the "level playing field" that you are trying to imply? If there is no competition on desktop iGPU, why is the playing field not levelled for AMD?

watzupkenRenoir is based on Zen 2, and I am not sure if running anything higher than 3600 will result in a regression in performance unless you can push the Infinity Fabric above the 1800 Mhz that it operates. No expert in this, so can't comment.


So then what is the "level playing field" that you are trying to imply? If there is no competition on desktop iGPU, why is the playing field not levelled for AMD?

Read it again and stop misquoting. Only comparison made is to past APUs, playing field between Vega 11 and Vega 8. No idea which hat you pulled Xe out of, considering the context of that sentence.

Renoir tops out at 2200-2300MHz IF depending on whether using a dGPU. All the aforementioned RAM profiles are at 1:1.

The 5000-series mobile chips are a bit of a snoozefest. They'll be good products worthy of buying instead of Renoir 4000-series but there are two pretty significant caveats:

1. Renoir wasn't really short in the CPU department, it was short in the IGP department, and there's no change with these Cezanne chips AT ALL. So yes, the CPU that was already horribly bottlenecked by the IGP will still be horribly bottlenecked by the IGP. That CPU will be faster at rendering, but if you really need a number-crunching laptop you probably aren't looking for a 15W ultraportable with an IGP - get a 5900HS or something, ideally with a CUDA GPU too.
2. Renoir was almost entirely power-limited. The 4800U is mighty impressive but it's the 15W TDP that's holding it back more than anything else. H-series with four times the cache in 45W laptops ran circles around it when real performance mattered. Cezanne is still the same TSMC 7nm so there are no major efficiency gains. Yes, it'll be a nice incremental improvement over Renoir but in the 15W arena it's an improvement in the one area that didn't really need improving.

with the current state of GPU prices, this might be a good option to entertain us for a while. I agree they should have not used Vega but it is the best option for now.

Chrispy_The 5000-series mobile chips are a bit of a snoozefest. They'll be good products worthy of buying instead of Renoir 4000-series but there are two pretty significant caveats:

1. Renoir wasn't really short in the CPU department, it was short in the IGP department, and there's no change with these Cezanne chips AT ALL. So yes, the CPU that was already horribly bottlenecked by the IGP will still be horribly bottlenecked by the IGP. That CPU will be faster at rendering, but if you really need a number-crunching laptop you probably aren't looking for a 15W ultraportable with an IGP - get a 5900HS or something, ideally with a CUDA GPU too.
2. Renoir was almost entirely power-limited. The 4800U is mighty impressive but it's the 15W TDP that's holding it back more than anything else. H-series with four times the cache in 45W laptops ran circles around it when real performance mattered. Cezanne is still the same TSMC 7nm so there are no major efficiency gains. Yes, it'll be a nice incremental improvement over Renoir but in the 15W arena it's an improvement in the one area that didn't really need improving.

Production segmentation wise , I don't think iGPU will look attractive in the high-end market, because most often than not they will choose dGPU option. That being said, rather forcing 8 cores with Vega, I think it's more interesting to pull 6 cores with RDNA. But that actually make 5600 non X kinda "useless", sigh.

I'm OK with Vega. Why is everyone shitting on this? It's not bad and it does have the performance. Well, for an APU that is.

watzupkenVega 8 is still competitive against Xe graphics even with its max 96 EUs config

Still? There was been long history between Vega and Xe and one of it "steel"? :D English is very hard to me, excuse me if something is wrong in my loops.

People keep rubbishing Vega despite it offering some of the fastest iGPU performance available (Xe 96 needs LDDR4X to consistently outperform Vega 8 with DDR4). My 4650G (Vega 7) is about 10% off a dedicated GTX1050 in actual games (Firestrike is not a game), which is pretty awesome when that it includes effectively a Ryzen 3600 in a 65W package.

My experience with overclocking the iGPU (1900Mhz to 2300MHz, ~20% increase) is that performance maybe lifts 5% in shader heavy games, whereas overclocking the memory from 3200 - 3866(~20% again) gave me a 15 - 20% uplift. That tells me that even Vega 7 is memory bandwidth starved, let alone Vega 8.

Vega's still good, mainly thanks to lack of competition but it hasn't really moved the goalposts very far. The IGP market is pretty stagnant. All AMD has done in the last three years is drop the CU count and jack up clockspeeds to compensate.

The only actual performance gain we've had in the last three years is nothing to do with architecture, it's the clockspeed and efficiencty jump as a direct result of moving off GloFo 14nm to TSMC 7nm:
~900MHz Vega10 became ~1500MHz Vega8. Rumours of a 15CU Vega for Renoir turned out to be false, and that was a shame because more emphasis on the IGP is sorely needed to stay ahead of Intel.

Send it to me, I will hack together some drivers for the GPU.

Also, why is the blue team first to the post with HBM on a CPU when a 6 core with decent Vega count and HBM would kill the market for laptops, or a CPU plus infinity cache of 128MB

tabascosauzDo you actually own the current APUs, OC and game on them to back up your statements about how they're supposedly bandwidth-starved? If you actually had hands-on experience with Renoir you'd know it is already a bandwidth god in terms of read, write and copy; Cezanne's Zen 3 improvements may very well take its already decent DRAM latency into the 40ns range.

DDR5 won't help jack shit if AMD continues to saddle these otherwise excellent APUs with Vega 8 (even lower clocked Vega 7 for the 6-core, even worse). If you know what you're doing, you're already going to be running 4000-4400 B-die on these APUs, but it won't actually tangibly help your performance beyond about 3800CL16. Maybe if you only run JEDEC 2133. You can take the memory higher all you want, you can try to OC the iGPU further all you want, Vega 8 isn't going to go anywhere meaningful.

It's like calling for GDDR6X on a GT 1030. Granted, the DDR4 version was über bad, but it literally ran at half the bus width of a normal DDR4-2133 system.

The POS Vega iGPU is too small and too old to ever be of any use. AMD can go on and on about how Vega 8 makes up the difference in clocks, but the performance shows. I can understand the need to keep die size small to mitigate the consequences of their unfortunate decision to put all their products in the same TSMC N7 basket, but still being stuck on Vega in 2021 is just lmao. Or alright, Vega with a die shrink and some new encoding features.

Like, either give us back 7nm Vega 11, or move to RDNA. I don't see why the latter is so hard to do.

I agree with a lot of this but there’s no reason to run 4400MHz RAM on this. I picked up a 4750G for a friends build used DDR4 3200 ram her games fine. I’d definitely love to see Vega11 or an 11CU RDNA GPU. Do that in this gpu drought and you’d be set with a decent enough gpu till supply catches up

Saw this image on techdeals youtube channel, and if those prices are true, the i5 11400 is a better buy than both 5400g and 5600g.

I cant wait to test this. I assume it has the new IMC like the 4750g.

I suspect the next mobile architecture will include some memory-on-package to supplement the DDR5 system memory bandwidth. It probably makes more sense to remain on Vega and direct further engineering resources to that true next-gen APU.

N3M3515

Saw this image on techdeals youtube channel, and if those prices are true, the i5 11400 is a better buy than both 5400g and 5600g.

Why bother citing fictional channels from Youtube, this 5000 G won't be in the retail market.

I too am patiently waiting for a 5000 series APU, whether I have to pick it up in the retail channel/ebay/Alibaba is of no concern to me. My best guess is that these will be available in the retail channel this go around. That is until I see official comments to the contrary.

I'd imagine AMD is sticking to Vega(with incremental increases) as long as there isn't any competition in the space. Why would they undercut their own graphics cards line up? I've read many people claiming these APU's should be at RX 570/580 levels of performance by now.

It's simply not viable.

I think for "what they are", they offer a great bargain. My only gripe is that I hate to see AMD walk away from the $99 "Ryzen 3" APU. I don't see a (x)200(or even a (x)300 as in the 4000 series) processor in that lineup....it's my preferred APU of choice.

Best,

Liquid Cool

N3M3515

Saw this image on techdeals youtube channel, and if those prices are true, the i5 11400 is a better buy than both 5400g and 5600g.

are you crazy ? 5650g will be better by 15% from 11400

After reading some of the everything AMD does is bad and everything Intel does is great balls on here you realise you can get more sense out of a Brexit voting white English man. I use an AMD Renoir CPU and the Vega 8 iGPU on it, is a surprisingly very capable GPU. Granted it's not going to run every modern game at 4k with all settings on ultra, but if you are willing to compromise on resolution then you can maintain image quality with decent frame rates. It can even play Crysis with all settings on ultra, 2x SSAA at 1600x900 resolution with 50 FPS on average. Personally, I don’t see the use for more compute units on the iGPU given how the iGPU already runs into memory bandwidth limitations, and lead to underutilisation of the CUs. At least with Cezanne its the last APU with Vega as next year Rembrant will offer Zen 3 and 6 RDNA WGPs on its APU.

Ant1s0c1AleNare you crazy ? 5650g will be better by 15% from 11400

And 40% more expensive!, no matter how you cut it, the 11400 is the better buy. The 11400 is the new Ryzen 3600.

1d10tWhy bother citing fictional channels from Youtube, this 5000 G won't be in the retail market.

Fictional? really?, you can't do a simple search?

There is a good reason these don't have RDNA as graphics, they are designed to go into high end systems with discrete GPU's. The Van Gogh which comes with RDNA is a much weaker CPU as it's Zen2 and it's designed for thin and light notebooks at lower price points so it needs the more powerful GPU. AMD is remedying this next gen with 6000 series APUs to get RDNA since DDR5 will be supported.

All I care is if the 5700G is it cheaper than the 5800X as it should be a nice upgrade from the 3700X.

My take of this, is it's a placeholder until they release the 6 series which will be much better.

I thought this was supposed to be RDNA2 graphics with onboard HBM?

N3M3515And 40% more expensive!, no matter how you cut it, the 11400 is the better buy. The 11400 is the new Ryzen 3600.

Fictional?

really?, you can't do a simple search?

dollar-productivity -you choose what you want.
let's not forget that thanks to AMD Intel they have reduced prices by 30% to the 10th generation and 11 a and Intel can afford it financially and still be profitable, while AMD is a dwarf compared to Intel

Ant1s0c1AleNdollar-productivity -you choose what you want.
let's not forget that thanks to AMD Intel they have reduced prices by 30% to the 10th generation and 11 a and Intel can afford it financially and still be profitable, while AMD is a dwarf compared to Intel

I don't really care who makes who do what, i'll i care is my wallet :), so, with amd ridiculous prices, the 11400 is shinning more than ever. Like i said, it is the new ryzen 3600.

mechtechI thought this was supposed to be RDNA2 graphics with onboard HBM?

That's coming after Cezanne (Rembrandt):



Cezanne was always going to just be just a change from Zen2 to Zen3.