Why even bother, 3000 XT release was terrible and performance identical. They can't even deliver regular X CPU's like 5900 and 5950 and now they want to release a XT model? Not even cherrypicked dies

lasWhy even bother, 3000 XT release was terrible and performance identical. They can't even deliver regular X CPU's like 5900 and 5950 and now they want to release a XT model? Not even cherrypicked dies

It was my understanding the 3600XT and 3800XT performed better than the non XT versions.

lasWhy even bother, 3000 XT release was terrible and performance identical.

With Apple moving to 5nm or lower a lot of 7nm capacity will be freed, heck even for AMD as they'll move to it later in the year with first products probably launching in 2022. Now 7nm capacity constraints will lower considerably & if console (6nm) leaks are to be believed then it's only a matter of time that supply will likely exceed demand especially for their CPUs.

Caring1It was my understanding the 3600XT and 3800XT performed better than the non XT versions.

Within margin of error just like 90% of Intel's lineup.

Caring1It was my understanding the 3600XT and 3800XT performed better than the non XT versions.

Barely, boost clocks were pretty much identical and watts went up (obviously), simply same die and chip, nothing special at all. Allowed AMD to price them higher. Look reviews on XT models if you don't believe this.

R0H1TWith Apple moving to 5nm or lower a lot of 7nm capacity will be freed, heck even for AMD as they'll move to it later in the year with first products probably launching in 2022. Now 7nm capacity constraints will lower considerably & if console (6nm) leaks are to be believed then it's only a matter of time that supply will likely exceed demand especially for their CPUs.

Apple is already using 5nm, they have done for almost 1 year now. iPhone 12 uses 5nm and released Q4 2020. Apple soon moves to 4nm for iPhone 13 with release in Q4, TSMC is probably already spitting out chips or they will soon. Apple always gets priority at TSMC. This is the reason AMD still uses 7nm even tho 5nm is ready and have been ready for a long time. TSMC would not be where they are today without Apple and Apple chips would not be world class without TSMC either (mostly because Apple ALWAYS uses a better node than everyone else - but architecture is great too - Jim Keller was/is behind).

Apple's M1 chip have been a huge succes and they will take alot of TSMC 5nm going forward. Sales exploded.
M2 uses 4nm like iPhone 13 SoCs tho.

So yeah, when Apple is "done" with 5nm, AMD can use it. Pretty much. Apple will still have some 5nm capacity tho, alot actually. Apple produces "older products" for a long time after new ones come out. Nothing new here. It's their "cheap alternative" instead of making low-end devices, they simply keep selling last years models.

ALSO, capacity is not the only problem right now. Materials are too. TSMC is not spitting out chips 24/7 because of this (and power outages happen alot right now - google it) + demand is still way higher than supply. Ryzen 5950X is almost a halo product, yields are probably bad but this is as close to a paper launch as you will get. It's pretty much NEVER in stock. A friend of mine have been waiting for this chip since release, and he ordered 1 minute after release. From MINDFACTORY. He thinks about cancelling it, because AM4 is EoL soon and AM5 is coming next year with DDR5 and PCIe 5.0 so why bother this late.

I won't be buying ANYTHING CPU, GPU or RAM related till mid/late 2022 or even 2023. Truly next gen stuff incoming and supply/prices will come back to normal.

evernessinceWithin margin or error just like 90% of Intel's lineup.

Wrong use of margin of error. If you can consistently show that one product is even 0.05% better than the other then that's not margin of error. For Intel SKUs it's certainly not margin of error as they have different clocks on the same CPU so it's very easy to say that the higher clocked CPUs will always perform x% better.

lasApple is already using 5nm, they have done for almost 1 year now, Apple soon moves to 4 or 3nm for iPhone 13 release in Q4.

Apple is also using 7nm, they'll move a lot, if not majority of their products from that node & go 5nm or lower. In case you don't remember they also have their lower end products like Apple TV, lower end tablets, iPod Touch(?) not to mention older iPhones on non leading edge nodes as well ~ so just because they use 5nm doesn't mean they've stopped using older nodes :rolleyes:

lasApple always gets priority at TSMC. This is why AMD still uses 7nm even tho 5nm is ready and have been ready for a long time.

At this point in time AMD can afford leading edge nodes just like Apple, the difference is though that their (total) volumes probably exceed Apple's by a fair bit. Between CPU, APU, GPU, consoles, other semi custom & embedded processors I can't think of any other chipmaker will has the volume that AMD drives! Talking specifically of volume because Apple still pays TSMC the most for obvious reasons.

R0H1TApple is also using 7nm, they'll move a lot, if not majority of their products from that node & go 5nm or lower. In case you don't remember they also have their lower end products like Apple TV, lower end tablets, iPod Touch(?) not to mention older iPhones on non leading edge nodes as well ~ so just because they use 5nm doesn't mean they've stopped using older nodes :rolleyes:

At this point in time AMD can afford leading edge nodes just like Apple, the difference is though that their (total) volumes probably exceed Apple's by a fair bit. Between CPU, APU, GPU, consoles, other semi custom & embedded processors I can't think of any other chipmaker will has the volume that AMD drives! Talking specifically of volume because Apple still pays TSMC the most for obvious reasons.

No AMD can't afford it. Apple earns 150 million dollars a day. AMD is nowhere near this and will never be able to beat Apple on price. Besides, TSMC and Apple are longtime partners, money is not the only reason why Apple gets priority. Like I said, TSMC would not be where they are, without Apple. Apple spent billions on TSMC over the years.

Of course that's why I said volumes ~ AMD needs lots of working dies for their chips. Sure the chiplets work great for yield & what not but even then you need them to clock a great deal higher than what Apple's shown us.

lasNo AMD can't afford it.

Based on what? You do realize that Apple doesn't actually subsidize the node developments as is often assumed here, TSMC's CAPEX is huge & I mean really effin humongous!

Apple earns 150 million dollars a day.

So, you also know the revenues or margins of the services part of their business? Why does that matter here unless you're claiming Apple effectively blocks others from using the leading edge fabs with their "$150m" a day endeavor ~ which btw would be anti competitive!

lasNo AMD can't afford it. Apple earns 150 million dollars a day. AMD is nowhere near this and will never be able to beat Apple on price. Besides, TSMC and Apple are longtime partners, money is not the only reason why Apple gets priority. Like I said, TSMC would not be where they are, without Apple. Apple spent billions on TSMC over the years.

Apple's pie isn't that big. On 5nm relative to all the capacity on it at a specific point in time, perhaps, but in the grand scale of what TSMC produces, they're what, below 10% or something.

Here it is, albeit not TSMC only.

Exhibit 1: 5-nanomater Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021




Exhibit 2: 7-nanometer (N7, N7+, N6) Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021

Vayra86Apple's pie isn't that big. On 5nm relative to all the capacity on it at a specific point in time, perhaps, but in the grand scale of what TSMC produces, they're what, below 10% or something.

Here it is, albeit not TSMC only.

Exhibit 1: 5-nanomater Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021




Exhibit 2: 7-nanometer (N7, N7+, N6) Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021

GPUs are huge. This makes me wonder again about "why are CPUs so expensive".

PS
Xiling is so... tiny.

Vayra86Apple's pie isn't that big. On 5nm relative to all the capacity on it at a specific point in time, perhaps, but in the grand scale of what TSMC produces, they're what, below 10% or something.

Here it is, albeit not TSMC only.

Exhibit 1: 5-nanomater Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021




Exhibit 2: 7-nanometer (N7, N7+, N6) Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021

What is the point of this, this is not TSMCs 5nm capacity but all 5nm? Samsung 5nm is decent but TSMC 5nm is better

It may be worth the price differential if these chips consistently hit higher clocks to achieve meaningfully better performance, especially at same power. May be possible due to manufacturing process improvements. Wouldn't expect more than 3% performance improvement...

Otherwise, it's a typical money grab operation like the 3000XT series was...

I wonder what they are up to with this new stepping. Yield, performance, efficiency, or nice mix of all.

Well 5ghz boost will be a downgrade....

FourstaffI wonder what they are up to with this new stepping. Yield, performance, efficiency, or nice mix of all.

Grabbing cash probably, just like 3000 XT CPU's, pretty much no difference

Who will buy these tho, AM5 + DDR5 + PCIE5 next year + 5nm CPU's or lower

lasGrabbing cash probably, just like 3000 XT CPU's, pretty much no difference

Who will buy these tho, AM5 + DDR5 + PCIE5 next year + 5nm CPU's or lower

Let's be a bit more positive here, since the launch of 3000 XT CPUs, the non-XT ones dropped in price.

FourstaffLet's be a bit more positive here, since the launch of 3000 XT CPUs, the non-XT ones dropped in price.

I'm always positive and happy, but also a realist - probably only because they cherry picked the best dies for XT :)

And I hope they do, because then the release would not be pointless. If XT models on average can hit 100-200 MHz higher then XT price bump can be justified

Of course, all this information should be taken with a big grain of salt, as we don't know what AMD is planning to do, or how the company plans to manifest any new product launch.

A. can this leak source be 100% trusted, not to be some misleading "story", and B. this looks like research reference, sampling.

AleksandarKAnother B2 stepping that we know about is an alleged Ryzen 5 5600XT 6 core, 12 threaded design. This one features the same frequencies as its Ryzen 5 5600X variant, meaning 3.7 GHz base, and 4.6 GHz boost frequencies.

So what is the advantage of the 5600XT if it has the same frequency than the 5600X? Did I miss something here? Maybe higher mem clocks?

lasGrabbing cash probably, just like 3000 XT CPU's, pretty much no difference

Who will buy these tho, AM5 + DDR5 + PCIE5 next year + 5nm CPU's or lower

Why not grab if it's a business? What do you expect from a company? Simple thing here is you don't have to buy XT version, just focus on the 'x' variant instead.
With the AM5 DDR5 and PCIe5 next year with 5nm CPU's, you expect the prices to be lower or buy due to the urge of getting a new tech? It would seem, you are saying that it's better to buy something immature that won't work much faster than current gen System but will cost way more for sure, (possible instabilities due to new platform) is a better choice?

lasWhy even bother, 3000 XT release was terrible and performance identical. They can't even deliver regular X CPU's like 5900 and 5950 and now they want to release a XT model? Not even cherrypicked dies

I can buy them everywhere in Germany/Europe. No problem with that.

Vayra86Exhibit 2: 7-nanometer (N7, N7+, N6) Wafer Shipment Breakdown by Customer, 2021

I know this is a wrong topic and all, but what the hell is Nvidia manufacturing on 7nm this year?
Both are using a small enough part of 5nm but on 7nm AMD continues with Zen3 (and possibly Zen3+) and RDNA2 at 27% of 7nm capacity while Nvidia uses 21% for... something?

jesdalsWell 5ghz boost will be a downgrade....

How so?

londisteI know this is a wrong topic and all, but what the hell is Nvidia manufacturing on 7nm this year?
Both are using a small enough part of 5nm but on 7nm AMD continues with Zen3 (and possibly Zen3+) and RDNA2 at 27% of 7nm capacity while Nvidia uses 21% for... something?

I think the "8nm" wafers used by NV were counted in.

londisteI know this is a wrong topic and all, but what the hell is Nvidia manufacturing on 7nm this year?
Both are using a small enough part of 5nm but on 7nm AMD continues with Zen3 (and possibly Zen3+) and RDNA2 at 27% of 7nm capacity while Nvidia uses 21% for... something?

Good question. Maybe that is really just all other nodes?