Monday, April 24th 2023
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AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Processors Prone to Physical Damage with Voltage-assisted Overclocking, Motherboard Vendors Rush BIOS Updates with Voltage Limiters
AMD Ryzen 7000X3D processors are prone to irreversible physical damage if CPU overclocking is attempted at some of the higher VDDCR voltages (the main power domain for the CPU cores). A Redditor who goes by Speedrookie, attempted to overclock their Ryzen 7 7800X3D, leading to an irreversible failure. The motherboard socket and the processor's land-grid contacts, show signs of overheating damage caused by the contacts melting from too much current draw.
A Ryzen 7000X3D processor features a special CPU complex die (CCD) with stacked 3D Vertical Cache memory. This cache die is located in the central region over the CCD where its 32 MB on-die L3 cache is located, while the difference in Z-height of the stacked die is filled up by structural silicon, which sit over the regions of the CCD with the 8 "Zen 4" CPU cores. It stands to reason that besides having an inferior thermal transfer setup to conventional "Zen 4" CCDs (without the 3DV cache), the CCD itself has a higher power-draw at any given clock-speed than a conventional CCD (since it's also powering the L3D). This is the main reason why overclocking capabilities on the 7000X3D processors are almost non-existent, and the processor's power limits are generally lower than their regular Ryzen 7000X counterparts. Attempting to dial up voltage kicks up the perfect storm for these processors.Igor's Lab posted a detailed analysis of the region of the Socket AM5 land-grid most susceptible to a burn-out in the above scenario. The central region of the LGA has 93 pins dedicated to the VDDCR power domain, dispersed in a mostly checkered pattern, toward the center of the land-grid. Igor isolated 6 of these VDDCR pins in particular, which are most prone to physical damage, as they are located in a region below the CCD that sees it sandwiched between the L3D (stacked 3D Vertical cache die), and the fiberglass substrate below. Apparently, AMD's thermal and electrical protection mechanisms aren't able to prevent a runaway overheating of the pins that causes the substrate to melt, deform, and bulge outward, resulting in irreversible damage to both the processor and the socket.
Meanwhile, AMD's motherboard partners are rushing to release UEFI BIOS updates for their entire lineups of motherboards, which enforce tighter limits on the VDDCR voltage. MSI is the first motherboard manufacturer with such updates. MSI, in a press statement, stated that it has redesigned automated overclocking for 7000X3D processors. "The BIOS now only supports negative offset voltage settings, which can reduce the CPU voltage only," the MSI statement to Tom's Hardware reads. "MSI Center also restricts any direct voltage and frequency adjustments, ensuring that the CPU won't be damaged due to over-voltage." On the other hand, the update introduces an automated overclocking feature called Enhanced Mode Boost, which optimizes PBO settings to improve boost frequency residency, without any manual voltage adjustments.
Sources:
Tom's Hardware 1, 2, Igor's Lab, Speedrookie (Reddit)
A Ryzen 7000X3D processor features a special CPU complex die (CCD) with stacked 3D Vertical Cache memory. This cache die is located in the central region over the CCD where its 32 MB on-die L3 cache is located, while the difference in Z-height of the stacked die is filled up by structural silicon, which sit over the regions of the CCD with the 8 "Zen 4" CPU cores. It stands to reason that besides having an inferior thermal transfer setup to conventional "Zen 4" CCDs (without the 3DV cache), the CCD itself has a higher power-draw at any given clock-speed than a conventional CCD (since it's also powering the L3D). This is the main reason why overclocking capabilities on the 7000X3D processors are almost non-existent, and the processor's power limits are generally lower than their regular Ryzen 7000X counterparts. Attempting to dial up voltage kicks up the perfect storm for these processors.Igor's Lab posted a detailed analysis of the region of the Socket AM5 land-grid most susceptible to a burn-out in the above scenario. The central region of the LGA has 93 pins dedicated to the VDDCR power domain, dispersed in a mostly checkered pattern, toward the center of the land-grid. Igor isolated 6 of these VDDCR pins in particular, which are most prone to physical damage, as they are located in a region below the CCD that sees it sandwiched between the L3D (stacked 3D Vertical cache die), and the fiberglass substrate below. Apparently, AMD's thermal and electrical protection mechanisms aren't able to prevent a runaway overheating of the pins that causes the substrate to melt, deform, and bulge outward, resulting in irreversible damage to both the processor and the socket.
Meanwhile, AMD's motherboard partners are rushing to release UEFI BIOS updates for their entire lineups of motherboards, which enforce tighter limits on the VDDCR voltage. MSI is the first motherboard manufacturer with such updates. MSI, in a press statement, stated that it has redesigned automated overclocking for 7000X3D processors. "The BIOS now only supports negative offset voltage settings, which can reduce the CPU voltage only," the MSI statement to Tom's Hardware reads. "MSI Center also restricts any direct voltage and frequency adjustments, ensuring that the CPU won't be damaged due to over-voltage." On the other hand, the update introduces an automated overclocking feature called Enhanced Mode Boost, which optimizes PBO settings to improve boost frequency residency, without any manual voltage adjustments.
258 Comments on AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Processors Prone to Physical Damage with Voltage-assisted Overclocking, Motherboard Vendors Rush BIOS Updates with Voltage Limiters
If you squeeze in some feature that i am not supposed to use because it blows up your product and you dont label it appropriately then its not my responsibility as a consumer to figure this out for you. My responsibility ended when i paid you the money. It is yours as the vendor to properly advertise your product and take all the safety precautions needed to minimize issues . Its as simple as that.
Things like XMP/EXPO, performance tunning features, etc should be clearly labeled as warnings that your chip can blow up if thats the case. On the right hand side in the description section, every of those features should state "WARNING - may cause permanent damage to the hardware if enabled" . So that i as the consumer can make that decision - do i wanna risk blowing up my chip for 5% perf? Yes/No.
But no vendor does it and you know why? Because not worth the potential loss in sales due to less than advertised performance, not widespread, and probably requires too much time to proofread (looking at you gigabyte).
So if this person enabled EXPO and blew up his chip....i dont see how thats the consumers fault. Has nothing to do with being new or innovative or being braindead whatever...it is an additional cost/investment with very little return that manufacturers deemed not worth it at your expense as the consumer.
Hope its just a one faulty chip though
If you are selling anything without any requirements, then what do u expect? Why are you making assumptions that the user is fully knowledgeable of all the possibilities of damaging this chip? Put on that label - "this cpu is for informed customers ONLY". Sounds dumb right? thats because it is.
He also mentioned that MindFactory (a major German reseller) isn't selling ASUS boards anymore because dealing with all the RMA's was way too costly for them. Couldn't believe it, checked their homepage and sure enough, there is no ASUS mainboard to be seen, LOL.
Here’s a fact you can’t understand- modifying the CPU outside of manufacturer specifications voids the warranty. This includes EXPO overclocking.
>AMD is not liable under warranty if, through testing and examination, it is AMD’s reasonable opinion that the alleged defect or malfunction of the CPU has been caused by misuse, neglect, improper installation or testing.
also
>This limited warranty does not cover damages due to external causes, including improper use, problems with electrical power, accident, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing.
Shill
I’m curious to know how honest these Reddit reports are, and whose actually pumping vcore (mistakenly or intentionally) killing these 3D chips; a setting that should have been hard locked/not available in the bios just like the 5800X3D
I’m very curious to see what GN/Steve finds once they get that sample from the Reddit user. Side note, derbauer killed his sample by going past 1.35v VDD, not VSOC; afaik even auto settings on my asus b650e does not exceed 1.35 when XMP/EXPO is set on 1409, VDD remains normal at ~1.08v avg.
I have a suspicious some people are unawarely killing these chips by entering values improperly. Either way I await the results.
Quote: "AMD EXPO does have one caveat associated with it; AMD EXPO is classed as overclocking in AMD's own eyes, and according to its footnotes, it does void the warranty."
Do not throw insults out there.
Stay on topic and discuss the tech... not each other
www.amd.com/en/technologies/expo
Does Use of Intel® Extreme Memory Profile (Intel® XMP) Void the CPU Warranty?
Altering the frequency and/or voltage outside of Intel specifications may void the processor warranty. Examples: Overclocking and enabling Intel® XMP, which is a type of memory overclocking, and using it beyond the given specifications may void the processor warranty.The issue is what given specifications means, presumably keep to the XMP I AND II profiles and it's OK, but go beyond that and it's not.
This isn't new & I do believe there's more to the story but we'll probably never really know what exactly happened here.
Technically everything past DDR5-5200 is "out of specs" and will void warranty. ;)
www.tomshardware.com/news/msi-new-bios-for-am5-motherboards-restricts-ryzen-7000x3d-volgtages
You can blame the users all you want (you're holding the iphone wrong! you didn't plug your dongle all the way in!) -- but if the hardware functions inconsistently across boards, or in extreme cases explodes with incorrect bios settings, there's no amount of user blaming that will make that go away. The "holding iphone wrong/dongle not all the way in" crowd has never been correct - that reasoning just doesn't work.