Monday, April 24th 2023

AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Processors Prone to Physical Damage with Voltage-assisted Overclocking, Motherboard Vendors Rush BIOS Updates with Voltage Limiters

AMD Ryzen 7000X3D processors are prone to irreversible physical damage if CPU overclocking is attempted at some of the higher VDDCR voltages (the main power domain for the CPU cores). A Redditor who goes by Speedrookie, attempted to overclock their Ryzen 7 7800X3D, leading to an irreversible failure. The motherboard socket and the processor's land-grid contacts, show signs of overheating damage caused by the contacts melting from too much current draw.

A Ryzen 7000X3D processor features a special CPU complex die (CCD) with stacked 3D Vertical Cache memory. This cache die is located in the central region over the CCD where its 32 MB on-die L3 cache is located, while the difference in Z-height of the stacked die is filled up by structural silicon, which sit over the regions of the CCD with the 8 "Zen 4" CPU cores. It stands to reason that besides having an inferior thermal transfer setup to conventional "Zen 4" CCDs (without the 3DV cache), the CCD itself has a higher power-draw at any given clock-speed than a conventional CCD (since it's also powering the L3D). This is the main reason why overclocking capabilities on the 7000X3D processors are almost non-existent, and the processor's power limits are generally lower than their regular Ryzen 7000X counterparts. Attempting to dial up voltage kicks up the perfect storm for these processors.
Igor's Lab posted a detailed analysis of the region of the Socket AM5 land-grid most susceptible to a burn-out in the above scenario. The central region of the LGA has 93 pins dedicated to the VDDCR power domain, dispersed in a mostly checkered pattern, toward the center of the land-grid. Igor isolated 6 of these VDDCR pins in particular, which are most prone to physical damage, as they are located in a region below the CCD that sees it sandwiched between the L3D (stacked 3D Vertical cache die), and the fiberglass substrate below. Apparently, AMD's thermal and electrical protection mechanisms aren't able to prevent a runaway overheating of the pins that causes the substrate to melt, deform, and bulge outward, resulting in irreversible damage to both the processor and the socket.

Meanwhile, AMD's motherboard partners are rushing to release UEFI BIOS updates for their entire lineups of motherboards, which enforce tighter limits on the VDDCR voltage. MSI is the first motherboard manufacturer with such updates. MSI, in a press statement, stated that it has redesigned automated overclocking for 7000X3D processors. "The BIOS now only supports negative offset voltage settings, which can reduce the CPU voltage only," the MSI statement to Tom's Hardware reads. "MSI Center also restricts any direct voltage and frequency adjustments, ensuring that the CPU won't be damaged due to over-voltage." On the other hand, the update introduces an automated overclocking feature called Enhanced Mode Boost, which optimizes PBO settings to improve boost frequency residency, without any manual voltage adjustments.
Sources: Tom's Hardware 1, 2, Igor's Lab, Speedrookie (Reddit)
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258 Comments on AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Processors Prone to Physical Damage with Voltage-assisted Overclocking, Motherboard Vendors Rush BIOS Updates with Voltage Limiters

#51
R0H1T
This is indeed getting out of hand, how did so many noobs manage to fry a brand new spanking x3d chip :shadedshu:
Yes it's the default voltages supplied by the boards, even if for mild/memory OCing :slap:
Posted on Reply
#52
sethmatrix7
Looks like many of the cases of this occurring so far are on Asus motherboards
Posted on Reply
#53
Hxx
MahboiThese people are braindead though.

Literally getting a new technology and going pompously pointing fingers and throwing shade at the creator of the new tech for "not mitigating" well enough.
Hey genius, that's what being NEW is. We don't know the mitigations because they're new. That's the entire concept of "new", or "unknown" or "innovative" or really anything that isn't just walking the same inroads we've been doing for 15 years. Ignoring instruction sets, 3D Vcache is probably the first very big CPU improvement since multi core.

And here we have these Holy Judges passing their Holy Judgement on AMD for their users playing around with a completely new tech and not somehow magically guessing how to stop them doing something stupid before they even do any of these things.


Well, that is quite boring.
I mean it's safe and all, sure. But boring.
if you make a widget that i buy from you then my expectation as the consumer is that it should perform as advertised meaning any feature that i as the consumer have access to can be used unless otherwise spelled out as a warning.
If you squeeze in some feature that i am not supposed to use because it blows up your product and you dont label it appropriately then its not my responsibility as a consumer to figure this out for you. My responsibility ended when i paid you the money. It is yours as the vendor to properly advertise your product and take all the safety precautions needed to minimize issues . Its as simple as that.
Things like XMP/EXPO, performance tunning features, etc should be clearly labeled as warnings that your chip can blow up if thats the case. On the right hand side in the description section, every of those features should state "WARNING - may cause permanent damage to the hardware if enabled" . So that i as the consumer can make that decision - do i wanna risk blowing up my chip for 5% perf? Yes/No.
But no vendor does it and you know why? Because not worth the potential loss in sales due to less than advertised performance, not widespread, and probably requires too much time to proofread (looking at you gigabyte).
So if this person enabled EXPO and blew up his chip....i dont see how thats the consumers fault. Has nothing to do with being new or innovative or being braindead whatever...it is an additional cost/investment with very little return that manufacturers deemed not worth it at your expense as the consumer.
Posted on Reply
#54
trparky
And to think that when I was building my Ryzen 7700X system, the salesperson at Microcenter that helped me pick out my parts told me to avoid ASUS motherboards like the plague. The more I read about people having issues with ASUS boards, the more I want to thank that salesperson with helping me dodge a bullet.
Posted on Reply
#55
TTPPUU
if X3Ds can die this quick just from enabling a harmless 6000 EXPO profile then they are worthless garbage

Hope its just a one faulty chip though
Posted on Reply
#56
sethmatrix7
Hxxif you make a widget that i buy from you then my expectation as the consumer is that it should perform as advertised meaning any feature that i as the consumer have access to can be used unless otherwise spelled out as a warning.
If you squeeze in some feature that i am not supposed to use because it blows up your product and you dont label it appropriately then its not my responsibility as a consumer to figure this out for you. My responsibility ended when i paid you the money. It is yours as the vendor to properly advertise your product and take all the safety precautions needed to minimize issues . Its as simple as that.
Things like XMP/EXPO, performance tunning features, etc should be clearly labeled as warnings that your chip can blow up if thats the case. On the right hand side in the description section, every of those features should state "WARNING - may cause permanent damage to the hardware if enabled" . So that i as the consumer can make that decision - do i wanna risk blowing up my chip for 5% perf? Yes/No.
But no vendor does it and you know why? Because not worth the potential loss in sales due to less than advertised performance, not widespread, and probably requires too much time to proofread (looking at you gigabyte).
So if this person enabled EXPO and blew up his chip....i dont see how thats the consumers fault. Has nothing to do with being new or innovative or being braindead whatever...it is an additional cost/investment with very little return that manufacturers deemed not worth it at your expense as the consumer.
User stupidity is not the fault of the manufacturer. Don’t overclock your TV and expect it to work and then blame the manufacturer for your TV not working outside recommended settings. User stupidity doesn’t require the manufacturer to hard lock all the settings an idiot could mess up. As the user it is on us to be informed about what we are purchasing and how we should use it.
HxxSo if this person enabled EXPO and blew up his chip....i dont see how thats the consumers fault.
The consumer modified the component to operate outside of manufacturer settings. It’s the most textbook warranty-void around.
Posted on Reply
#57
Hxx
sethmatrix7User stupidity is not the fault of the manufacturer. Don’t overclock your TV and expect it to work and then blame the manufacturer for your TV not working outside recommended settings. User stupidity doesn’t require the manufacturer to hard lock all the settings an idiot could mess up. As the user it is on us to be informed about what we are purchasing and how we should use it.
False! Then put that requirement on the label. Does AMD require 20 years of PC building experience to buy their chips? No. How about 5 ? nope. Maybe 1 year and 6 months of overclocking experience ? NOPE!. Newegg will let you purchase anything. So no requirements - check. How about written proof that i am an "informed consumer"? Nope no requirement whatsoever just a valid email address phone number and a credit card.

If you are selling anything without any requirements, then what do u expect? Why are you making assumptions that the user is fully knowledgeable of all the possibilities of damaging this chip? Put on that label - "this cpu is for informed customers ONLY". Sounds dumb right? thats because it is.
Posted on Reply
#58
MarsM4N
trparkyAnd to think that when I was building my Ryzen 7700X system, the salesperson at Microcenter that helped me pick out my parts told me to avoid ASUS motherboards like the plague. The more I read about people having issues with ASUS boards, the more I want to thank that salesperson with helping me dodge a bullet.
I did read recently a post from a PC builder who said the same thing. :D Had tons of RMA's for ASUS boards, he's now only using mainly MSI boards, AsRock (2nd pick) & some GigaByte boards for his builds.

He also mentioned that MindFactory (a major German reseller) isn't selling ASUS boards anymore because dealing with all the RMA's was way too costly for them. Couldn't believe it, checked their homepage and sure enough, there is no ASUS mainboard to be seen, LOL.
Posted on Reply
#59
sethmatrix7
HxxFalse! Then put that requirement on the label. Does AMD require 20 years of PC building experience to buy their chips? No. How about 5 ? nope. Maybe 1 year and 6 months of overclocking experience ? NOPE!. Newegg will let you purchase anything. So no requirements - check. How about written proof that i am an "informed consumer"? Nope no requirement whatsoever just a valid email address phone number and a credit card.

If you are selling anything without any requirements, then what do u expect? Put on that label - "this cpu is for informed customers ONLY". Sounds dumb right? thats because it is.
Whatever helps you cope
Posted on Reply
#60
trparky
MarsM4NCouldn't believe it, checked their homepage and sure enough, there is no ASUS mainboard to be seen, LOL.
I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it with my own two eyes. Damn, not an ASUS board in sight on that store.
Posted on Reply
#61
Hxx
sethmatrix7Whatever helps you cope
just simply stating facts, I am not taking any sides
Posted on Reply
#62
sethmatrix7
Hxxjust simply stating facts, I am not taking any sides
What facts? All you’ve said is it’s ok to void the warranty. It’s ok to fuck up the CPU by using settings the end user doesn’t have any grasp of.

Here’s a fact you can’t understand- modifying the CPU outside of manufacturer specifications voids the warranty. This includes EXPO overclocking.
Posted on Reply
#63
TTPPUU
sethmatrix7This includes EXPO overclocking.
no it doesnt
Posted on Reply
#64
sethmatrix7
TTPPUUno it doesnt
Per AMD

>AMD is not liable under warranty if, through testing and examination, it is AMD’s reasonable opinion that the alleged defect or malfunction of the CPU has been caused by misuse, neglect, improper installation or testing.

also

>This limited warranty does not cover damages due to external causes, including improper use, problems with electrical power, accident, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing.

Shill
Posted on Reply
#65
rv8000
So much misinformation going around it seems.

I’m curious to know how honest these Reddit reports are, and whose actually pumping vcore (mistakenly or intentionally) killing these 3D chips; a setting that should have been hard locked/not available in the bios just like the 5800X3D

I’m very curious to see what GN/Steve finds once they get that sample from the Reddit user. Side note, derbauer killed his sample by going past 1.35v VDD, not VSOC; afaik even auto settings on my asus b650e does not exceed 1.35 when XMP/EXPO is set on 1409, VDD remains normal at ~1.08v avg.

I have a suspicious some people are unawarely killing these chips by entering values improperly. Either way I await the results.
Posted on Reply
#67
95Viper
Discuss the topic, civilly.
Do not throw insults out there.
Stay on topic and discuss the tech... not each other
Posted on Reply
#69
pressing on
MarsM4NSadly it does. ;)


Quote: "AMD EXPO does have one caveat associated with it; AMD EXPO is classed as overclocking in AMD's own eyes, and according to its footnotes, it does void the warranty."
Intel have made this statement about memory overclocking using XMP:

Does Use of Intel® Extreme Memory Profile (Intel® XMP) Void the CPU Warranty?

Altering the frequency and/or voltage outside of Intel specifications may void the processor warranty. Examples: Overclocking and enabling Intel® XMP, which is a type of memory overclocking, and using it beyond the given specifications may void the processor warranty.

The issue is what given specifications means, presumably keep to the XMP I AND II profiles and it's OK, but go beyond that and it's not.
Posted on Reply
#70
R0H1T
MarsM4NSadly it does. ;)


Quote: "AMD EXPO does have one caveat associated with it; AMD EXPO is classed as overclocking in AMD's own eyes, and according to its footnotes, it does void the warranty."
So does XMP, or any such other settings previously available on AMD/Intel :toast:

This isn't new & I do believe there's more to the story but we'll probably never really know what exactly happened here.
Posted on Reply
#71
pressing on
trparkyI wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it with my own two eyes. Damn, not an ASUS board in sight on that store.
Not only just a board, absolutely no Asus products are sold so no GPUs or laptops/notebooks.
Posted on Reply
#72
trparky
pressing onNot only just a board, absolutely no Asus products are sold so no GPUs or laptops/notebooks.
You have to wonder what's going on in the ASUS camp to have a retailer not only drop ASUS motherboards but also everything else that ASUS makes.
Posted on Reply
#73
MarsM4N
pressing onIntel have made this statement about memory overclocking using XMP:

Does Use of Intel® Extreme Memory Profile (Intel® XMP) Void the CPU Warranty?

Altering the frequency and/or voltage outside of Intel specifications may void the processor warranty. Examples: Overclocking and enabling Intel® XMP, which is a type of memory overclocking, and using it beyond the given specifications may void the processor warranty.

The issue is what given specifications means, presumably keep to the XMP I AND II profiles and it's OK, but go beyond that and it's not.
Specifications for the 7800X3D: AMD Ryzen™ 7 7800X3D Gaming Processor

Technically everything past DDR5-5200 is "out of specs" and will void warranty. ;)
Posted on Reply
#75
phanbuey
MahboiGuess what, genius? If the article says "it was overclocked", I'm gonna assume that it was overclocked.

And also, ASUS already had 2 x3D CPUs that blew that showed up on Reddit. There's a thread about some extremely shady behaviour there too:
Amd/comments/12uvcsm
But I'm sure I'll hear more sarcasm from you in about 10 seconds and it'll be all about AMD's fault and not ASUS or anything.
In my first post I explicitly state that I think the issue was with mobo makers with some responsibility from AMD due to communication issues (which they have always had). I don't buy the "brainded users" argument -- because it's a waste of time.

You can blame the users all you want (you're holding the iphone wrong! you didn't plug your dongle all the way in!) -- but if the hardware functions inconsistently across boards, or in extreme cases explodes with incorrect bios settings, there's no amount of user blaming that will make that go away. The "holding iphone wrong/dongle not all the way in" crowd has never been correct - that reasoning just doesn't work.
Posted on Reply
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