Monday, April 24th 2023
AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Processors Prone to Physical Damage with Voltage-assisted Overclocking, Motherboard Vendors Rush BIOS Updates with Voltage Limiters
AMD Ryzen 7000X3D processors are prone to irreversible physical damage if CPU overclocking is attempted at some of the higher VDDCR voltages (the main power domain for the CPU cores). A Redditor who goes by Speedrookie, attempted to overclock their Ryzen 7 7800X3D, leading to an irreversible failure. The motherboard socket and the processor's land-grid contacts, show signs of overheating damage caused by the contacts melting from too much current draw.
A Ryzen 7000X3D processor features a special CPU complex die (CCD) with stacked 3D Vertical Cache memory. This cache die is located in the central region over the CCD where its 32 MB on-die L3 cache is located, while the difference in Z-height of the stacked die is filled up by structural silicon, which sit over the regions of the CCD with the 8 "Zen 4" CPU cores. It stands to reason that besides having an inferior thermal transfer setup to conventional "Zen 4" CCDs (without the 3DV cache), the CCD itself has a higher power-draw at any given clock-speed than a conventional CCD (since it's also powering the L3D). This is the main reason why overclocking capabilities on the 7000X3D processors are almost non-existent, and the processor's power limits are generally lower than their regular Ryzen 7000X counterparts. Attempting to dial up voltage kicks up the perfect storm for these processors.
Igor's Lab posted a detailed analysis of the region of the Socket AM5 land-grid most susceptible to a burn-out in the above scenario. The central region of the LGA has 93 pins dedicated to the VDDCR power domain, dispersed in a mostly checkered pattern, toward the center of the land-grid. Igor isolated 6 of these VDDCR pins in particular, which are most prone to physical damage, as they are located in a region below the CCD that sees it sandwiched between the L3D (stacked 3D Vertical cache die), and the fiberglass substrate below. Apparently, AMD's thermal and electrical protection mechanisms aren't able to prevent a runaway overheating of the pins that causes the substrate to melt, deform, and bulge outward, resulting in irreversible damage to both the processor and the socket.
Meanwhile, AMD's motherboard partners are rushing to release UEFI BIOS updates for their entire lineups of motherboards, which enforce tighter limits on the VDDCR voltage. MSI is the first motherboard manufacturer with such updates. MSI, in a press statement, stated that it has redesigned automated overclocking for 7000X3D processors. "The BIOS now only supports negative offset voltage settings, which can reduce the CPU voltage only," the MSI statement to Tom's Hardware reads. "MSI Center also restricts any direct voltage and frequency adjustments, ensuring that the CPU won't be damaged due to over-voltage." On the other hand, the update introduces an automated overclocking feature called Enhanced Mode Boost, which optimizes PBO settings to improve boost frequency residency, without any manual voltage adjustments.
Sources:
Tom's Hardware 1, 2, Igor's Lab, Speedrookie (Reddit)
A Ryzen 7000X3D processor features a special CPU complex die (CCD) with stacked 3D Vertical Cache memory. This cache die is located in the central region over the CCD where its 32 MB on-die L3 cache is located, while the difference in Z-height of the stacked die is filled up by structural silicon, which sit over the regions of the CCD with the 8 "Zen 4" CPU cores. It stands to reason that besides having an inferior thermal transfer setup to conventional "Zen 4" CCDs (without the 3DV cache), the CCD itself has a higher power-draw at any given clock-speed than a conventional CCD (since it's also powering the L3D). This is the main reason why overclocking capabilities on the 7000X3D processors are almost non-existent, and the processor's power limits are generally lower than their regular Ryzen 7000X counterparts. Attempting to dial up voltage kicks up the perfect storm for these processors.
Meanwhile, AMD's motherboard partners are rushing to release UEFI BIOS updates for their entire lineups of motherboards, which enforce tighter limits on the VDDCR voltage. MSI is the first motherboard manufacturer with such updates. MSI, in a press statement, stated that it has redesigned automated overclocking for 7000X3D processors. "The BIOS now only supports negative offset voltage settings, which can reduce the CPU voltage only," the MSI statement to Tom's Hardware reads. "MSI Center also restricts any direct voltage and frequency adjustments, ensuring that the CPU won't be damaged due to over-voltage." On the other hand, the update introduces an automated overclocking feature called Enhanced Mode Boost, which optimizes PBO settings to improve boost frequency residency, without any manual voltage adjustments.
258 Comments on AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Processors Prone to Physical Damage with Voltage-assisted Overclocking, Motherboard Vendors Rush BIOS Updates with Voltage Limiters
So it's not really a surprise that OC'ing an X3D chip hard would end up frying the more voltage sensitive CPU.
It's 100% on the mobo, but still -- kind of a brutal problem to have with a shiny premium product. From a consumer point of view having a "Tune Performance!" button in the bios that explodes your chip isn't ideal.
The processor consumes very little and yet ... disaster. Related to consumption, such accidents are not allowed. They will probably solve it in the future, but already released processors will be permanently at risk, even without overclocking.
A good cooler, which does not allow it to reach critical temperatures, is recommended.
der8auer, "fried" a 7950X3D a month ago.
>it breaks
HOW COULD AMD DO THIS
Why would you even want to OC to begin with in 2023, everything clocks so high out of the box that 15C for 100 MHz isn't worth it.
>it breaks
>It is clearly a mistake in the design of the socket and the protection of the processor.
I’m getting a good laugh this Monday morning
If you're at the 15C for 100Mhz point then you either pushed WAY past diminishing returns point and should turn back.
Usually CPUs don't explode - so that's not typically a risk people account for these days.
Because you know they have protections that prevent destruction.
A much better question: did AMD provide the correct technical data to motherboard manufacturers? It seems not.
There's easily a 10% difference in performance between gigabyte boards vs the rest of the field for the same chips.
I'm not excusing AMD for this though, don't get me wrong.
AMD have a better record with their CPU`s fot achiving that burn-in-smoke trophy.
Damaging the CPU is one thing and for sure not covered by warranty for OC, but collateral damaging the mobo is a different story...
Not cool at all.
You can build bone stock AMD systems that have wildly different behaviors depending on your choice of motherboard even with the same spec of other components.
Right now if you build a 7800X3D system on a B650 or 670 gigabyte board, with 32 or 64 GB and 2x sticks that are on the QVL and PBO undervolt it --- you have the best gaming rig money can buy. If you deviate from that AT ALL, you're in the "F%& around and find out" territory. God bless you if you want 128GB of ram.
Wow
No, you're not supposed to OC X3Ds. RTFM, you clickbaiting idiots.Can fully agree with this, yes it should have been locked down. But still. RTFM
Its a bit like customer due diligence. If you stumble forward oblivious of reality, you will step in doodoo
I guess people like their disclaimers before common sense.
Seen reports about disapearing BIOS'ses for the ASUS boards on their website where 8 versions got replaced by 2 new. So it's definitely a sloppy MOBO manufacturers job. Looks like they just copy pasted BIOS versions/settings of non 3D chips and toasted 3D chips if you enabled EXPO overclocking. There is a post at igorsLAB where a user could replicate the issue. So if you run EXPO settings better deactivate it right now or run custom settings. If there is already a new BIOS update out for your mobo that fixes the issue update it ASAP!
Looks like they cover your chip and mobo if you fried them already. Heard also some chatter about running EXPO overclocking would be out of spec & would void warranty. Nonsense or true?
As for the people (or person) claiming that AMD doesn't work enough with MOBO partners......what? There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that mobo manufacturers are FULLY aware of the limitations of these chips, but probably tried to push it even further for a competitive advantage. As far as "working with" these manufacturers, It seems like I'm the only one who knows or acknowledges the fact that Intel spends over 3x the amount AMD does on R&D and that includes bribing, I mean "reimbursing development costs" to OEMs....funds that AMD probably dont have.You understand that sethmatrix7 was making a joke, right? Because it doesn't seem like you doAlthough I try not to engage in whataboutisms....name another company of the SAME SIZE and FINANCIAL resources as AMD who hasn't had some problems