Oh hey, even NVidia pretends like the 4060 and 4060Ti do not exist. Neat.
Also, that’s a rather weird case list. No Jonsbo cases? Or ssupd? Ridge and Terra, but no Torrent Nano? Did they just use a dart board?

OnasiAlso, that’s a rather weird case list. No Jonsbo cases? Or ssupd? Ridge and Terra, but no Torrent Nano? Did they just use a dart board?

These cases come with a specific chip that matches a whitelist of GPU's that can be used.

Seems like Nvidia has a fairly different definiton of SFF than I do. I suppose this is better than nothing, but I was hoping for something more around LP cards, or "ITX" size/ length cards

Top card shown below fits NVidia's new SFF guidelines, with the 4060 LP under it. And an ITX sized card pictured for good measure.

wolfSeems like Nvidia has a fairly different definiton of SFF than I do.

They will change 30 cm to 30 inches next decade and won't bat an eye at that. I got one of the largest RX 6700 XTs out here and it's smaller than their "SFF ready" nonsense.

Wouldn't mind seeing RTX 4070 Lite introduced (with these Ti and Supers flying around, it's not gonna hurt anyway), a GPU of the vanilla 4070's SM and VRAM count (or perhaps 44 SM instead of 46 just for lulz) but locked to, say, 120 W, and built with the smallest possible cooling solution that's still reasonable for this heat output.

wolfSeems like Nvidia has a fairly different definiton of SFF than I do. I suppose this is better than nothing, but I was hoping for something more around LP cards, or "ITX" size/ length cards

Top card shown below fits NVidia's new SFF guidelines, with the 4060 LP under it. And an ITX sized card pictured for good measure.

Yeah, to me a SFF card is one that can fit in a Asrock x300/b660/x600 case, IE 20cm long and 2 slots thick at most. I love the 4060 LP and it's been a huge boon to my media PC's performance.

I miss those ITX dual slot cards. No idea why we stopped making them, there's plenty of GPUs that fit the power bill.

wolfSeems like Nvidia has a fairly different definiton of SFF than I do. I suppose this is better than nothing, but I was hoping for something more around LP cards, or "ITX" size/ length cards

Top card shown below fits NVidia's new SFF guidelines, with the 4060 LP under it. And an ITX sized card pictured for good measure.

Most modern SFF cases have been designed to accommodate standard-sized GPU, while being as small or smaller than most SFF cases of the past. Unless you are going for something really tiny like the 4 liters velka 3 :D. under 20 liters is generally seen as being SFF by the community. Even if some cases like the NR200 are really on the edge of being MFF

btarunror to make do with mid-performance graphics cards, or simply give up the idea in favor of a next generation console,

This decree doesn’t change any of this. They are literally the ones making the cards that require 4 slot cooling solutions.

I also love how the defined dimensions were high end cards like 2 generations ago.

Solaris17This decree doesn’t change any of this. They are literally the ones making the cards that require 4 slot cooling solutions.

I also love how the defined dimensions were high end cards like 2 generations ago.

And those high end cards would be mid range at best today.

I remember when high end cards were single slot and only drew 40 watts. All these modern cards are power hogs!

TheinsanegamerNAnd those high end cards would be mid range at best today.

I remember when high end cards were single slot and only drew 40 watts. All these modern cards are power hogs!

Yes this is them trying to tell us that our normal sized cases and gpus are really the new SFF and that we should feel shameful for having such tiny computers. I also remember when Low profile meant it was the height of a deck of cards, card AND bracket.

btarunrNVIDIA has taken note of the upward-and-outward trend for enthusiast-segment GeForce RTX gaming graphics cards to be huge

REALLY... "taken note of" ???

THEY are (primarily) the ones who started making gigantic cards in the 1st place, so what exactly is the point of this statement anyway ???

Ngreediya/Jacket Man are such douchebags will someone please just tell them to stfu & gtfooh already.....:D

PoochYes this is them trying to tell us that our normal sized cases and gpus are really the new SFF and that we should feel shameful for having such tiny computers. I also remember when Low profile meant it was the height of a deck of cards, card AND bracket.

what I dont understand is why people are so upset over the card being 3 or 4 slots.

Like....you guys have ATX cases. They have 7 slots. You dont use sound cards anymore, you dont use separate network cards, Controller cards? LMFAO no. 99% of "gaming PCs" are full of empty space.

Do people really want 72dba blowers back? Just to safeguard the empty space in their PC? The mini ITX guys I understand, because "mini ITX" used to mean sub 10L PCs, but have bloated to hold these big GPUs. But then, go buy that 2 slot jet engine 4080 and be happy? I seem to remember this exact same back and foth during the Thermi days, with people insisting the 480 was too much and 300w GPUs were way too power hungry and dual slot coolers were obnoxiously big and everything used to be single slot and blah blah blah.

TheinsanegamerNAnd those high end cards would be mid range at best today.

I remember when high end cards were single slot and only drew 40 watts. All these modern cards are power hogs!

I agree, I know technology advances. I am from the pci gpu era so I do get it. I might be taking you the wrong way but I'm not necessarily arguing against change. I think I just had a moment of weakness. I am just baffled and confused as to why they are parading this around, when they caused the problem they are now solving.

I have to sit back and reflect on how PCs have changed, and I mean the acronym., Personal Computers. As someone that went from EATX to mATX I look at my machine now and I will be honest I am biased. To me though this is what engineering and advancement looks like.

To nvidia its apparently 5 slot cards. How big does the rest of the system need to get to accommodate that? History repeats itself in almost all cases; but I am hoping we dont get to the size of refrigerators before we shrink agian.

pun not intentional

Solaris17I agree, I know technology advances. I am from the pci gpu era so I do get it. I might be taking you the wrong way but I'm not necessarily arguing against change. I think I just had a moment of weakness. I am just baffled and confused as to why they are parading this around, when they caused the problem they are now solving.

I dont understand how they caused a problem? GPU tech advances, and we as consumers wanted cool running, quiet, 400+ watt GPUs. That means a bigger cooler.

I'm guessing they are showing this standard off because nobody can agree on what a "SFF" GPU is . So now they have a standard. So case makers can say their case is Nvidia SFF GPU compatible" and people can buy a GPU knowing it will fit without flipping through dimensions on every card.

Solaris17I have to sit back and reflect on how PCs have changed, and I mean the acronym., Personal Computers. As someone that went from EATX to mATX I look at my machine now and I will be honest I am biased. To me though this is what engineering and advancement looks like.

To nvidia its apparently 5 slot cards. How big does the rest of the system need to get to accommodate that? History repeats itself in almost all cases; but I am hoping we dont get to the size of refrigerators before we shrink agian.

pun not intentional

Well, yes, because previous cards were held back by manufacturing nodes that could not scale clocks and die size high enough to necessitate a 3 slot cooler. Its not like GPUs like the GTX 280 left tons of room on the table for improvement. Just like GPUs such as the 9800 pro didnt need a dual slot cooler.

Now our limit is not the clock speed but rather our ability to extract heat from the ever shrinking transistors. Which necessitates a bigger cooler to extract that performance without overheating or sounding like a jet engine. As a side benefit, our cards are quieter then ever and cooler then ever. I remember what a big deal the first Twin Frozr cards were back in the fermi era. The fact you could cool a 250w GPU without a noisy AF squirrel cage fan was a huge improvement.

IDK why the existence of the 4090 convinces people that there is no innovation, the 4080 super has a 2 slot variant for purchase. Anyone who wants a 2 slot card can buy that. In fact, there is a dual slot 4090 in china with a reduced 260 watt TDP. It's the PERFECT card for living out the dreams of 2011 builds. Curiously, people are not scrambling to buy it, even through its a 260w dual slot 4090 GPU.....

300mm now is "SFF friendly"? LOL

RTX A2000 and RTX 4000 Ada exist. It's neither difficult physically nor efficiency-wise, all the companies are just lazy and greedy. Not everyone's strictly looking for 4080 level performance, cards absolutely do not need to be triple slot 300mm (looking at all you offensively large 4060s and 4070s).

tabascosauz300mm now is "SFF friendly"? LOL

RTX A2000 and RTX 4000 Ada exist. It's neither difficult physically nor efficiency-wise, all the companies are just lazy and greedy. Not everyone's strictly looking for 4080 level performance, cards absolutely do not need to be triple slot 300mm (looking at all you offensively large 4060s and 4070s).

Most new ITX cases can easily handle 300mm cards. That's what most consider "SFF".

TheinsanegamerNI dont understand how they caused a problem? GPU tech advances, and we as consumers wanted cool running, quiet, 400+ watt GPUs. That means a bigger cooler.

I'm guessing they are showing this standard off because nobody can agree on what a "SFF" GPU is . So now they have a standard. So case makers can say their case is Nvidia SFF GPU compatible" and people can buy a GPU knowing it will fit without flipping through dimensions on every card.

Well, yes, because previous cards were held back by manufacturing nodes that could not scale clocks and die size high enough to necessitate a 3 slot cooler. Its not like GPUs like the GTX 280 left tons of room on the table for improvement. Just like GPUs such as the 9800 pro didnt need a dual slot cooler.

Now our limit is not the clock speed but rather our ability to extract heat from the ever shrinking transistors. Which necessitates a bigger cooler to extract that performance without overheating or sounding like a jet engine. As a side benefit, our cards are quieter then ever and cooler then ever. I remember what a big deal the first Twin Frozr cards were back in the fermi era. The fact you could cool a 250w GPU without a noisy AF squirrel cage fan was a huge improvement.

IDK why the existence of the 4090 convinces people that there is no innovation, the 4080 super has a 2 slot variant for purchase. Anyone who wants a 2 slot card can buy that. In fact, there is a dual slot 4090 in china with a reduced 260 watt TDP. It's the PERFECT card for living out the dreams of 2011 builds. Curiously, people are not scrambling to buy it, even through its a 260w dual slot 4090 GPU.....

I mean I get it. I work with this kind of stuff everyday. I just respectfully disagree. I think the "big" is a necessary evil of this era of electronics but ultimately I don't think its an acceptable target.

Solaris17I mean I get it. I work with this kind of stuff everyday. I just respectfully disagree. I think the "big" is a necessary evil of this era of electronics but ultimately I don't think its an acceptable target.

I don't think they even set a target. They literally just took their FE design (albeit a smart one, FE for 4080 and 4090 at least) and decreed that everyone should follow it.

Which would just hobble higher clocked versions of top end cards (ie. XTX, 4090). Going flow thru like Nvidia doesn't leave much room for an OC oriented PCB. And anything below say 4070 Ti has no right to be even close to that big in the first place.

So essentially Nvidia put in zero effort into this announcement, stated the obvious, and passed it off as the next best invention.

TheinsanegamerNMost new ITX cases can easily handle 300mm cards. That's what most consider "SFF".

Then what is the point of "SFF" branding if all larger 15-20L cases in the past 5 years could accommodate these regular sized cards to begin with?

So the point is that SFF is massively popular now and no longer to be dismissed as niche......but only if you are still building 10L+. Otherwise you're still an oddity. Got it. Remind me what was the point of this branding again?

Not to mention that their insistence on 12VHPWR means nothing was gained. Yes, their spec dictates a lower height card that isn't taller than the bracket. But most of those cards used 8-pin. Now with FE we have a lower height card, but you still have to treat it like a taller card for 12VHPWR clearance.

To make full use of the lower height, you'd have to buy an extra cablemod angled adapter. Which itself was fully recalled for some failures just a few months ago.

I absolutely agree with @Solaris17 on this. Modern GPUs are an aberration in what the trend for computing has been for… well, as long as computers were a thing. Everything else is striving towards reducing the physical sizes and footprint of computing. Thus the path towards thinner and lighter laptops, laptop-tablet hybrids, AIO PCs and, hell, even smartphones, although the current flagship trend is going for bigger screens, are trying to minimize those via use of foldable displays.
And yet in desktop DIY PCs we’ve been essentially stuck on the same-ish tower form factor for a long while now. You’d think that what we call SFF would not be this exotic niche for enthusiasts by now, but the norm. And yet it’s not. And I absolutely think that GPU sizes increasing drastically over the last decade is part of the problem.

SFF. 30cm, 2,5 slot card.

Lel

This cannot continue without failing, it just can't.

All of this is because "Computex",

Is 15 cm and one millimeter enough for height, or they are not take under consideration the curvature needed for their 16 pin connector?

By the way, not all atx cases can house their 16 pin connector cards without a vertical mounting and riser cable, let alone sff cases.

On the other hand, how cooler are those cards in those "sff" cases, the advertised cards and cases.

Ngridia- The Way Is Meant To Be Paid.

OnasiI absolutely agree with @Solaris17 on this. Modern GPUs are an aberration in what the trend for computing has been for… well, as long as computers were a thing. Everything else is striving towards reducing the physical sizes and footprint of computing. Thus the path towards thinner and lighter laptops, laptop-tablet hybrids, AIO PCs and, hell, even smartphones, although the current flagship trend is going for bigger screens, are trying to minimize those via use of foldable displays.
And yet in desktop DIY PCs we’ve been essentially stuck on the same-ish tower form factor for a long while now. You’d think that what we call SFF would not be this exotic niche for enthusiasts by now, but the norm. And yet it’s not. And I absolutely think that GPU sizes increasing drastically over the last decade is part of the problem.

You forget a key point.

The PC wants to do it locally. Every other device that got shrunk over time, is aimed at doing things in the cloud. Even laptops; they're not equipped with sufficient storage to carry everything on local disk. To 'complete' a workflow on a laptop, you're generally looking at some external influence, whether peripherals, data, whatever.

So yeah things get smaller because they do less. But we want our PC's to keep doing more. Locally. Directly.

Solaris17I mean I get it. I work with this kind of stuff everyday. I just respectfully disagree. I think the "big" is a necessary evil of this era of electronics but ultimately I don't think its an acceptable target.

So, I'm curious, what would you consider acceptable? Should the 4090 not exist? Should they all have 2 slot 72 dba blowers? I genuinely dont get it.

OnasiI absolutely agree with @Solaris17 on this. Modern GPUs are an aberration in what the trend for computing has been for… well, as long as computers were a thing. Everything else is striving towards reducing the physical sizes and footprint of computing. Thus the path towards thinner and lighter laptops, laptop-tablet hybrids, AIO PCs and, hell, even smartphones, although the current flagship trend is going for bigger screens, are trying to minimize those via use of foldable displays.
And yet in desktop DIY PCs we’ve been essentially stuck on the same-ish tower form factor for a long while now. You’d think that what we call SFF would not be this exotic niche for enthusiasts by now, but the norm. And yet it’s not. And I absolutely think that GPU sizes increasing drastically over the last decade is part of the problem.

Nobody is stopping you though? You could easily do what I did. I bought a dell optiplex 7020 many years ago for my media PC. I gutted it, converted it to a ITX PC, and now have a computer with a 7.8 liter capacity, with a 4060 low profile and a i5-12400 with 32GB of RAM, a blu ray drive, and the ability to offer 8+TB of storage, all in a PC smaller then a series X or PS5.

GPU sizes have increased over the last decade because we are no longer limited by production node. A GTX 780ti could only overclock so far. Newer nodes can clock higher, and handle higher power use, the major issue today is not clock speeds, it's thermal output, and thats why GPU coolers have gotten big, to handle the heat and also to run quieter then ever before. Even small cases today like the dan A4 can handle long triple slot GPUs. So...why not make em that way? The only market this doesnt really benefit is the LP community, but considering we got the 4060LP this year, even we're doing great!

tabascosauzThen what is the point of "SFF" branding if all larger 15-20L cases in the past 5 years could accommodate these regular sized cards to begin with
So the point is that SFF is massively popular now and no longer to be dismissed as niche......but only if you are still building 10L+. Otherwise you're still an oddity. Got it. Remind me what was the point of this branding again?

The point of this branding is to appeal to the 95% of the market that still use micro of full ATX chassis, or ITX chassis that are 10+ liters and have length or width restrictions.

I'd LOVE for more proper LP support, or proper 7.67" ITX card support. The R9 285 was a great ITX GPU, but with the 3000 series we just stopped getting them. Such a cooler could easily handle a 4060ti, maybe even a 4070, but nobody wants to build one. Maybe just nobody bought them?

At the least, we got the 4060LP, which has been great for LP builds. And there is the ada 4000, if you want to spend jalopy money on a GPU.

TheinsanegamerNSo, I'm curious, what would you consider acceptable? Should the 4090 not exist? Should they all have 2 slot 72 dba blowers? I genuinely dont get it.

If you dont get it, then maybe we should ask you. How big is to big? Is dedicating a room of your house to a PC ala eniac totally fine as long as they are ICs instead of vac tubes? Anything for progress?

30 cm length and 2.5 slot thickness marked as SFF... Haha, good joke. Try again, Nvidia. :slap:

OnasiI absolutely agree with @Solaris17 on this. Modern GPUs are an aberration in what the trend for computing has been for… well, as long as computers were a thing. Everything else is striving towards reducing the physical sizes and footprint of computing. Thus the path towards thinner and lighter laptops, laptop-tablet hybrids, AIO PCs and, hell, even smartphones, although the current flagship trend is going for bigger screens, are trying to minimize those via use of foldable displays.
And yet in desktop DIY PCs we’ve been essentially stuck on the same-ish tower form factor for a long while now. You’d think that what we call SFF would not be this exotic niche for enthusiasts by now, but the norm. And yet it’s not. And I absolutely think that GPU sizes increasing drastically over the last decade is part of the problem.

The thing to remember is the performance target that we are striving for, and that high-performance computers got drastically smaller because they radically changed how the processing units were designed.

Today though? We are using a massively refined version of the tech that allowed the microprocessor to be a thing. It's refined enough to allow relatively powerful computers that fit in our pockets, but it's still the same technology. It's still silicon, and as years goes by, the cooling requirement just increases. We went from ambiant air cooling, to an heatsink, to active air cooling with bigger and bigger heatsink.

If we were willing to compromise, tiny desktop computers could be the norm, like something roughly equivalent to a Mac studio. Not a charts topper but powerfull enough to work and play within reason. But no, (especially when it comes to GPU) we want impressive graphics, high refresh rate, high resolution, all the while being quiet, and software workarounds are being shunned by many tech enthuisiast. This is the "PC gaming master race" not "compromise land". Make 1440p the high-end target, you'll see people say that GPU makers are lacking ambitions.

It's easy to say for a CPU that it's "fast enough" even if you limit it. The same can rarely be said about a GPU. Unless we figure out a novel way to make them...