M4 family is looking very nice indeed.

Look, if the computer is a work tool it’s money you spend to solve a problem.

If your time is valuable you pay for a tool be it a tens of thousands workstations or servers from Dell, Lenovo etc. or an Apple computer.

Same with power tools for a professionals versus hobbyists.

Personally I am waiting for the Studio M4 Ultra to replace my M2 Max.

OEM Threadripper workstations with Linux are also on my radar, but the software hassle and administration definitely factors negatively there.

RUSeriousiPods are what brought me back to using Apple products. They were small and worked very well. iTunes allowed me to import all my CDs - so it was all fine by me.

I had no CDs back then, only MP3 sourced from... ehm... elsewhere. So iTunes was a no-go. Besides, I don't understand to this day why you have to use a proprietary app to transfer files when any OS can do that for you.

256 GB or 512 GB no upgrades.

lol in todays world those drive would be filled full in a month.

Apple lame. Should have 1tb or 2tb SSD by now.

Lycanwolfen256 GB or 512 GB no upgrades.

lol in todays world those drive would be filled full in a month.

Apple lame. Should have 1tb or 2tb SSD by now.

Just like with 8gb of ram, selling a new computer with 256gb of base storage - one that's not upgradable no less - should be criminal. I can understand that being the basic spec for iPhones/iPads (and iphones still ship with 128gb), but a computer simply requires more.

We're coming to the point where it will become more expensive to source these low density parts than it would be to use higher density parts which is insane. For example on the mobile side UFS4.0 just doesn't exist in a 128gb format. RAM and SSD chips are following similar trends, companies like Apple might be single handely keeping those low density production lines operating lol

Looking at one of these, base model, to replace a Mini early 2009 currently in use as a network backup engine (CCC and multiple USB external HDDs) and media server. Runs headless - if I can get another 15 years out of it then well worth it - real computer for same money as a Synology NAS (which needs RAM u/g etc to push price higher). No brainer?

VerpalPrice of every >16GB ram model before this would crash very hard though, and deserving so, who in their right mind buy a 8GB ram mini PC in year 2023? Because 8GB is like 16GB in mac?

For most users the web browser will be the primary consumer of RAM, and it's shared memory with the GPU, so even 16GB would be "barely enough" for very light use, not to mention a few years down the road.

Timbaloo+460€ to upgrade from 16GB to 32GB RAM (soldered)

Pricey considering Chrome (or rather Safari in this case) will eat that for breakfast.

Timbaloo+460€ to upgrade from 256GB to 1TB SSD (soldered)
Whatever they are smoking, it must be hella pricey stuff.

Which means the majority of these will be e-waste after 2-3 years of heavy use.
(which is true for most laptops too today, of any brand)

Lycanwolfen256 GB or 512 GB no upgrades.

lol in todays world those drive would be filled full in a month.

Apple lame. Should have 1tb or 2tb SSD by now.

It sucks, but external drives exist

People are over complaining about the M4 model. With 10G ethernet, and TB4/5, it can access external storage quickly and cheaply. It is plenty fast enough for archiving and retrieving documents and videos. Remember, the M4 is a USER machine not a PRODUCER machine, and most users will be using icloud and syncing their iphones. And students can chuck it in their backpack when they go home. Heck, for my SOHO, I would even consider travelling with it rather than a laptop. iphone for comms, and mini for work. Just plug it in at home or in the office and go.

cvaldesI own both a Mac mini M2 Pro and a cheap Beelink Wintel mini PC (based on Intel N100).

Intel is dropping the ball by not having a chip based on Skymont cores that can be used in mini-PCs instead opting for an Alder Lake-N refresh with N150 and N250 among others that is just a marginal improvement over N100 and N200.

Absolutely yes. The Mac mini is my favorite computer form factor, and this new mini is so ridiculously powerful even in its most basic configuration that if I didn't play video games, there would be no better computer for me.

psydroidIntel is dropping the ball by not having a chip based on Skymont cores that can be used in mini-PCs instead opting for an Alder Lake-N refresh with N150 and N250 among others that is just a marginal improvement over N100 and N200.

It'll probably come sometime, but Intel's dropping the ball overall. The Core Ultra series haven't been well received.

trsttteJust like with 8gb of ram, selling a new computer with 256gb of base storage - one that's not upgradable no less - should be criminal. I can understand that being the basic spec for iPhones/iPads (and iphones still ship with 128gb), but a computer simply requires more.

8 GB RAM and 256 GB storage is what I have in my low-budget work phone (Blackview N6000). Even my bedroom HTPC that I assembled from second-hand parts from pawn shops and flea markets has more than that.

Where's the Power button?

(Hint: A somewhat rethorical question)

lemonadesodaand most users will be using icloud and syncing their iphones

Because Apple is pushing for that every chance they have to get another subscription. Install 2 or 3 games (probably half of the catalogue available for mac :D) and the 256gb is gone.

Saying you can buy external storage is not an answer, paying apple 5 or 10$ a month for cloud storage isn't either, the computer should have a minimum viable ammount of storage for day to day use, 256gb is not that.

trsttteBecause Apple is pushing for that every chance they have to get another subscription. Install 2 or 3 games (probably half of the catalogue available for mac :D) and the 256gb is gone.

Saying you can buy external storage is not an answer, paying apple 5 or 10$ a month for cloud storage isn't either, the computer should have a minimum viable ammount of storage for day to day use, 256gb is not that.

You’re making quite a few assumptions here. One, not all people who have a computer play games. Mac users are especially unlikely, as macOS has not really been a gaming platform for a long time. You also can’t assume that cloud storage has no benefits. If you have an iPhone, you get your photo and video content backed up and synced across devices, which most everyday people likely view as a very big convenience. As an amateur photographer, it is a very handy thing for me to export from Mac to my iCloud Photo Library so I can share easily with others. Other creative tools also push a cloud subscription model. It’s just where the market is at. And creative types like photographers and videographers can have massive content libraries, and they are quite used to external storage to house potentially decades of raw content (especially if it’s part of a long-running catalog of non-destructive edits). Not everyone is a gamer that needs a 1KW PSU and 8TB of internal storage. Not everyone is happy with 8/256, either. It’s a good thing we have choices.

Darmok N JaladYou’re making quite a few assumptions here. One, not all people who have a computer play games. Mac users are especially unlikely, as macOS has not really been a gaming platform for a long time. You also can’t assume that cloud storage has no benefits. If you have an iPhone, you get your photo and video content backed up and synced across devices, which most everyday people likely view as a very big convenience. As an amateur photographer, it is a very handy thing for me to export from Mac to my iCloud Photo Library so I can share easily with others. Other creative tools also push a cloud subscription model. It’s just where the market is at. And creative types like photographers and videographers can have massive content libraries, and they are quite used to external storage to house potentially decades of raw content (especially if it’s part of a long-running catalog of non-destructive edits). Not everyone is a gamer that needs a 1KW PSU and 8TB of internal storage. Not everyone is happy with 8/256, either. It’s a good thing we have choices.

I think the problem here isn't what they offer, but the price. 8/256 costs peanuts on a desktop PC, but you have to pay the Apple tax because "it should be enough for mainstream users"? This attitude from Apple is sick and wrong.

the machine needs more storage and native WINDOWS support

once Apple adds a proper bootcamp I'll buy one, not before that

AMD Strix Halo is much more interesting.

AusWolfI think the problem here isn't what they offer, but the price. 8/256 costs peanuts on a desktop PC, but you have to pay the Apple tax because "it should be enough for mainstream users"? This attitude from Apple is sick and wrong.

The "Apple tax" here is a stretch. You get a high-performing chip and an OS that isn't loaded with OEM extras, ads, and random junk that MS decides. You also aren't nagged to use it a specific way once you buy it (MSA, OneDrive, Office, etc). You get asked to use Apple services once, and you can decline all of them, use a local account, and macOS will respect that. What dollar value is that worth? We've come to expect the OS and support for no additional cost, but it's hardly free. Someone has to pay for OS development--do you want that to be through trackers, ads, and telemetry, or do you want to actually pay for it with your hardware purchase? Even Paul Thurrott doesn't think Apple's upgrade prices are that bad, when you actually compare the Mac to an equivalent premium PC, and not the bargain bin and off-brand stuff. A counter argument is that you can debloat Windows, which takes additional time and effort--what price is that worth? How many "mainstream users" are going to do that? I know you're looking to go Linux, so I guess ask yourself why that is, and what would it take for MS to keep you? Macs are boringly easy to get set up, and that's worth paying for, IMO.

Garrusthe machine needs more storage and native WINDOWS support

once Apple adds a proper bootcamp I'll buy one, not before that

AMD Strix Halo is much more interesting.

MS does not sell and license WOA as a standalone product. Apple said they'd support Windows on Mac 4 years ago when they switched over to Arm, but there is no legal way to install WOA on Apple Silicon Macs, so the ball is in MS's court.There is a project out there to install Linux on it, and Apple has done nothing to prevent its deployment on Mac hardware.

Darmok N JaladI know you're looking to go Linux, so I guess ask yourself why that is, and what would it take for MS to keep you? Macs are boringly easy to get set up, and that's worth paying for, IMO.

Should the question not be: Why does he not look into getting a Mac instead? ;)

Darmok N JaladThe "Apple tax" here is a stretch. You get a high-performing chip and an OS that isn't loaded with OEM extras, ads, and random junk that MS decides. You also aren't nagged to use it a specific way once you buy it (MSA, OneDrive, Office, etc). You get asked to use Apple services once, and you can decline all of them, use a local account, and macOS will respect that. What dollar value is that worth? We've come to expect the OS and support for no additional cost, but it's hardly free. Someone has to pay for OS development--do you want that to be through trackers, ads, and telemetry, or do you want to actually pay for it with your hardware purchase? Even Paul Thurrott doesn't think Apple's upgrade prices are that bad, when you actually compare the Mac to an equivalent premium PC, and not the bargain bin and off-brand stuff. A counter argument is that you can debloat Windows, which takes additional time and effort--what price is that worth? How many "mainstream users" are going to do that? I know you're looking to go Linux, so I guess ask yourself why that is, and what would it take for MS to keep you? Macs are boringly easy to get set up, and that's worth paying for, IMO.

I would agree with that argument if Linux didn't offer all of that and a lot more for free. I do not get the premium OS feel of Apple iOS, to be honest. It looks bare as heck to me, not to mention it doesn't run anything that isn't specifically made for it. It's holding my hands way more than I'd like. Linux at least has Wine and Proton.

Windows would keep me if it had no ads, no telemetry, no forced software installs (Copilot), no nagging about online accounts and Windows 11 upgrades. I find all this shit in an OS that you pay massive money for completely unacceptable.

I've already spent 3 days on Bazzite Linux (a gaming-oriented version of Fedora with KDE), and I'm loving it. :)

AusWolfI would agree with that argument if Linux didn't offer all of that and a lot more for free. I do not get the premium OS feel of Apple iOS, to be honest. It looks bare as heck to me, not to mention it doesn't run anything that isn't specifically made for it. It's holding my hands way more than I'd like. Linux at least has Wine and Proton.

Wine runs on macOS, too.

unwind-protectWine runs on macOS, too.

That's a big plus, then. :)

But I still don't get how iOS is "premium" and why I should be paying a crapload of money for the privilege of using it.

Darmok N JaladYou get a high-performing chip and an OS that isn't loaded with OEM extras, ads, and random junk that MS decides.

What, when does MS certfiy the junk that OEM's install on their cr@p machines :wtf:

Also uninstalling them is easy, real easy these days with the internet although you'd be right about not wanting them in the first place!

Darmok N JaladYou also aren't nagged to use it a specific way once you buy it (MSA, OneDrive, Office, etc).

Apple id says hi o_O

Darmok N JaladYou get asked to use Apple services once, and you can decline all of them, use a local account, and macOS will respect that.

So what do you do when you want to install apps through the Mac (app) store but don't want to use their account?

Darmok N JaladMacs are boringly easy to get set up, and that's worth paying for, IMO.

So is Windows or Linux ~ that's hardly a selling point these days unless you're working on a PC for the first time ever!

AusWolfI would agree with that argument if Linux didn't offer all of that and a lot more for free. I do not get the premium OS feel of Apple iOS, to be honest. It looks bare as heck to me, not to mention it doesn't run anything that isn't specifically made for it. It's holding my hands way more than I'd like. Linux at least has Wine and Proton.

Windows would keep me if it had no ads, no telemetry, no forced software installs (Copilot), no nagging about online accounts and Windows 11 upgrades. I find all this shit in an OS that you pay massive money for completely unacceptable.

I've already spent 3 days on Bazzite Linux (a gaming-oriented version of Fedora with KDE), and I'm loving it. :)

As much as I love Linux, it's still not as easy as macOS or Windows. Also, you can certainly use it, but Wine isn't a magic bullet. I have at least 4 professional photo editors, and none of them work on Linux with Wine, and no amount of internet searching and effort on my part has created a workable experience from any of them. That means if I want to use any of those programs, I have no choice but to use macOS or Windows. Proton is great for games, but it doesn't do it for my creative tools, and the FOSS options there are okay, but not near as easy as the pro tools.

R0H1TWhat, when does MS certfiy the junk that OEM's install on their cr@p machines :wtf:

Also uninstalling them is easy, real easy these days with the internet although you'd be right about not wanting them in the first place!

Apple id says hi o_O

So what do you do when you want to install apps through the Mac (app) store but don't want to use their account?

So is Windows or Linux ~ that's hardly a selling point these days unless you're working on a PC for the first time ever!

No, MS doesn't certify the junk (but they don't prevent it, either), but it's there, and it subsidizes the cost of the Windows machine. If the subject is the Apple tax, well, perhaps those preinstalled OEM extras could be considered the "PC tax" or something like that. There's a time cost to deal with all of it. You don't need an Apple ID on a Mac. It's pretty much the same as using a Windows PC without using the MS Store. You just install your programs straight from the software vendor, just like you can with Windows. There isn't anything in the Mac app store that's worth getting that you can't get elsewhere, TBH. And really, you're better off not buying from the App Store, as usually you can cross-license stuff with Windows if you buy from the developer. But sure, if you want to go that route, you'll have to use an Apple ID. You can actually use iPads and iPhones without an Apple ID too, but those depend on the App store for third party stuff, so you're certainly dependent there.

Again, my point is a counter to the "Apple Tax." If you're wanting to save money, it's time you'll be spending. There's nothing wrong with that, but some people will pay extra to avoid that--there's a reason Geek Squad exists. Some folks can't or won't try to improve their situation themselves, and now they are paying someone for assistance. That's really more to say that some users don't even know where to begin to improve their PC experience. I've helped a friend or two in the past doing just that. The OEM stuff they left installed made it a terrible experience, to the point that they just gave up and stopped using their PC. That should NOT be the out of box experience, but that's still what OEMs do to this day. The system is hobbled right out of the box.

Pretty much none of this affects the people here who aren't intimidated with tackling this stuff, but it is very much the reality for many everyday users out there.

Darmok N JaladAs much as I love Linux, it's still not as easy as macOS or Windows. Also, you can certainly use it, but Wine isn't a magic bullet. I have at least 4 professional photo editors, and none of them work on Linux with Wine, and no amount of internet searching and effort on my part has created a workable experience from any of them. That means if I want to use any of those programs, I have no choice but to use macOS or Windows. Proton is great for games, but it doesn't do it for my creative tools, and the FOSS options there are okay, but not near as easy as the pro tools.

I agree but I also don't. I think Linux (with an interface like KDE or Cinnamon) is way easier and way user friendlier than Windows. The fact that it's written by regular users and not corporate overlords can be felt in every pixel. The only time the experience goes tits up is when Wine doesn't want to cooperate with your program.

AusWolfI agree but I also don't. I think Linux (with an interface like KDE or Cinnamon) is way easier and way user friendlier than Windows. The fact that it's written by regular users and not corporate overlords can be felt in every pixel. The only time the experience goes tits up is when Wine doesn't want to cooperate with your program.

I run Fedora KDE in a VM on Windows. Although it's a bit of a pain to get setup exactly the way I like - I can tweak just about everything without the need for a 3rd party utility. On Win11 I use StartAllIsBack to add some customizations - and get rid of some horrible Win10/11 UI restrictions. Similar utilities are available for MacOS. So, from my perspective, Linux has OOTB expansive customization with some Window Managers, vs needed 3rd party tools for Win/Mac to get a reasonable level of customization. The ability to both match the UI to both ones workflow preference as well as getting ideal aesthetics is a real plus.