Tuesday, January 7th 2025

AMD Explains Missing RDNA 4 Announcements At CES

Perhaps the biggest surprise at AMD's January 6 CES keynote address was the omission of the Radeon RX 9070 series desktop graphics cards, and the RDNA 4 graphics architecture. This was particularly because the CES Pre-brief slide-deck that AMD provided to press included materials about Radeon, but the actual presentation on stage lacked that content. Immediately after the event, AMD leadership, including David McAfee and Frank Azor agreed to sit down with a small group of tech journalists for a roundtable talk, and we had a seat. In this article, we will try to share what we can. The talk began with addressing the elephant in the room, about why AMD omitted Radeon-related announcements in Jack Huynh's keynote address and the company also confirmed that providing press with pre-brief Radeon info was intentional, and they knew that info wouldn't be included on the main stage.

AMD says that the 45-minute keynote address didn't provide sufficient time to properly announce the Radeon RX 9070 series and RDNA 4. The company pointed to other announcements it omitted in the keynote, such as the Ryzen Z2 line of gaming handheld chips. The company says that Radeon-related announcements, would have needed a much greater time-share in the keynote, to detail the change in the product naming (more on this later), where the RX 9070 series fit into the market, the advancements made by RDNA 4, and new technology such as FSR 4.
AMD said that the Radeon RX 9070 series could see the light of the day in Q1 2025, and that the company will do at least an online media event to launch them. This hour-long presentation will give the team a better opportunity to dive deep into the nuts and bolts of RDNA 4 and the RX 9000 series. The company wouldn't confirm the exact date on which it plans to launch these cards, but we know from the pre-brief presentation that the launch is within Q1 2025, and that all of AMD's add-in board partners have their custom design cards ready.

We then jumped into the rabbit hole of product naming, and why AMD chose to give up a gaming GPU model naming scheme that it had built over three generations of Navi, starting with the RX 5000 series, succeeded by the RX 6000, and the RX 7000. The RX 5000 series now over 5 years old, so the market has had quite a bit of exposure to this naming scheme. AMD first sought to explain why it skipped the RX 8000 series. The company said that it wanted to align the model numbering with the Ryzen 9000 series desktop processors.

In the second half of AMD's answer, the company sought to explain the change from something like the "RX 9700 XT" to the "RX 9070 XT." The rumors are true, AMD wanted to make it easier for gamers to identify competitive positioning of SKUs, by giving them a naming scheme similar to "the competition," namely NVIDIA. This way, gamers would compare the RX 9070 XT to NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 5070 or the RTX 5070 Ti; and the future RX 9060 XT with the RTX 5060 Ti or RTX 5060.

A journalist then asked what was on everyone's mind at that point—if you're doing this to train consumers, then will this naming scheme stick. The Radeon RX "Navi" family is now already at the 9000 series, and the next generation will probably have to either be the "RX 10070" or bring yet another change. To this, AMD agreed that it cannot commit to a naming scheme, it constantly assesses the market and consumer behavior, and implements whatever works.

The next question by one of the journalists sought AMD's comment on what is the decision tree that led to the development of RDNA 4. AMD responded that it wanted to seek volumes, mainly to identify key segments of the market that pushed the most volumes, and then try to win in those segments with products that delivered higher performance per dollar and efficiency. The bulk of the market is running after the 70-series and the 60-series (eg: the RTX 4070 and the RTX 4060), and so AMD could save itself a lot of product development by only focusing on winnable segments. The company does not have to prove its ability to create enthusiast-segment GPUs, that's just not where the market is at. The switch to the 70-series and 60-series naming scheme was more to make it easier to reach out to the market volume.

AMD was also asked for its reaction on the Intel Arc B580 "Battlemage," specifically on how Intel succeeded in winning praise from both the press and gamers for a well-rounded product at $250. AMD's response sounded like they are very impressed with the B580. "I think it's a testament that if you bring features and performance to a great value price-point, it will really resonate with consumers." They seemed to agree that AMD's strategy will be very similar to that of Intel—to impress upon the largest volume segments of the market with high performance/dollar products.

AMD says that it got a lot of praise as well as flack from the RDNA 3 generation, and is trying to replicate the things that brought it praise. The RX 7000 series only had a couple of home-runs, such as the RX 7800 XT and the RX 7900 GRE, and the company's effort will be to replicate the success of those products.
The attention then turned to FSR 4, and a footnote in AMD's pre-brief presentation slide which said that FSR 4 will only be available to the RX 9070 series for supported games with FSR 3.1 already integrated. AMD said that FSR 4 uses a machine-learning based algorithm to reconstruct details in its super resolution component, and that RDNA 4 provides a significant uplift in MLops over the previous generations of RDNA, and so initially FSR 4 will be available on the RX 9000 series, but the company will assess specific SKUs from previous generations that it thinks are capable of the AI acceleration performance needed for FSR 4 SR algorithm to work without imposing a prohibitive performance or latency cost. FSR 4 will be a significant improvement not just in frame-rate at a given preset, but also image quality.

We then asked AMD about its priorities in developing RDNA 4, and explain why they'd ranked something high or something else a bit low. Their priority number 1 was to focus on improving performance in areas that gamers care about the most. You should expect in this generation to see big ray tracing improvements, big MLops (AI acceleration) improvements, for things like FSR 4 and ML Super Resolution.

The second priority is that every component on the GPU is designed for efficiency, not just in terms of energy efficiency, but in terms of the things that will allow AMD to price the product competitively—the right manufacturing process, the right die-size, the right memory type. In other words, AMD is preparing for a very stiff price war against NVIDIA and potentially Intel, where it doesn't want exotic hardware design decisions to erect barriers for the marketing team.

The third and smaller priority was go-to-market. If you recall, AMD was significantly slower than NVIDIA at going to market with the Radeon RX 7000 series. The RX 7900 series arrived at a time when NVIDIA had almost concluded rolling out the RTX 40-series. AMD wants to avoid that this time around, and you should see a fairly brisk set of product launches by AMD in the RX 9000 series.
Lastly, AMD refuted performance claims about the RX 9000 series GPUs doing rounds on the Internet. "Nobody has the final driver, not even the board manufacturers, so don't believe performance claims on the Internet," AMD quipped.
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77 Comments on AMD Explains Missing RDNA 4 Announcements At CES

#26
bug
Tbh, I'd be ok if they fumble presentations but deliver a good product. But I know nothing of the product either. A 7900XT only more efficient? That sounds very much like Arrow Lake take 2.
Posted on Reply
#27
ThomasK
Vayra86Oh my fcking god. What a mess. 9070XT is already DOA
Yeah, sure, you would know.
Posted on Reply
#28
bug
ThomasKYeah, sure, you would know.
What we know is it will be a 7900XT level card. And that Nvidia will offer the 5070 for $550. If the 5070 will be a mild upgrade over the 4070, it will match the 9070XT. I don't see many ways how this is a good thing for AMD. Or us.
Posted on Reply
#29
tfdsaf
I think they have everything setup actually and after the announcement they will have the cards selling in 2 weeks.

I think we are probably going to see very cheap cards, if the RX 9070XT is say same performance as the 5070 then expect it to be $100 cheaper, so I really think they are going to go for a $100 price reduction with the same feature set as Nvidia, with as good raytracing performance as then, with better video encoding and with more common PSU's.
Posted on Reply
#30
Dr. Dro
vvtunesI wish someone could explain me why RDNA 3 cards won't get FSR 4, or at least some lesser version e.g. FSR 3.9, aided by some AI features.
RDNA 3 does not have dedicated tensor processing/matrix multiplication capabilities, although it finally offered some instruction sets that are relevant to speed this type of workload up. Without this capability, the shader cores would be bogged down by the extra workload and this would not work as well. Current Radeon hardware can be used to train, inference and run models relatively well, but not while concurrently running a game engine. GeForce has had the Tensor cores since Volta (2017) and both Intel Arc Alchemist and Battlemage architectures have had their implementation (XMX cores) since the beginning.

In a sense, the reason why RDNA 3 gets left out is yet another self-inflicted wound because "AI graphics, like RT, is a gimmick and would never get anywhere"
Posted on Reply
#31
DaemonForce
Vayra86Oh my fcking god. What a mess. 9070XT is already DOA
Yeah this is what I was thinking just over a week ago and it turns out that hint was right.
The 9070XT is the flagship for that series and is not an ascension in performance.
If nothing else it appears to be a regression with pixel rate falling way behind.
It sort of keeps up with the 7900XT, keeps up with the 5080 in some FP16/64 ops and that's about it.

Oh...

Maybe there's still something worth our attention here. I'm not interested in AAA and Steam knows most of us aren't either.
I'm more interested in streaming VR and some desktop with the same excellent encode model that keeps nVidia in business.
16GB memory, fine. A pixel/texture rate several times the power of my RX580, fine. I don't need much. It just needs to be enough.

"BuT mUh AI-" Stfu. Literally nobody cares. :slap:

If AI/RT/PT were that important, that's all gamers would care about.
People already know full well that this junk causes frames to tank, HARD.
Most of us run cards that either game fine or getting long in the tooth, sub-60FPS.
We don't have a firm grasp on older games yet and I'm not running into RT/PT blind.
It's a fool's errand to believe these newer cards aren't going to continue to struggle.
Dr. DroRDNA 3 does not have dedicated tensor processing/matrix multiplication capabilities
UDNA will have to finally address this with a new core technology dedicated to these ops just like everyone else.
It's an elephant in the room that is slowly snacking and growing. But for now...This might be okay.
Posted on Reply
#32
bug
tfdsafI think they have everything setup actually and after the announcement they will have the cards selling in 2 weeks.

I think we are probably going to see very cheap cards, if the RX 9070XT is say same performance as the 5070 then expect it to be $100 cheaper, so I really think they are going to go for a $100 price reduction with the same feature set as Nvidia, with as good raytracing performance as then, with better video encoding and with more common PSU's.
Based on what? They said "maybe Q1" and admitted even then it may be a paper launch.
Posted on Reply
#33
ThomasK
bugWhat we know is it will be a 7900XT level card. And that Nvidia will offer the 5070 for $550. If the 5070 will be a mild upgrade over the 4070, it will match the 9070XT. I don't see many ways how this is a good thing for AMD. Or us.
Do you even know pricing yet? Please man, either stow your crystal ball away or shut up.
Posted on Reply
#34
bug
ThomasKDo you even know pricing yet? Please man, either stow your crystal ball away or shut up.
We don't know the pricing. But if it will be much more than $550, it will be a hard sell. And if AMD's top card will sell for $550, that doesn't leave a lot of room for profit.
It's not hard to connect the dots, you know?
Posted on Reply
#35
Vayra86
ThomasKYeah, sure, you would know.
Yes, I do. Its not hard to conclude this based on the facts so far, and AMD's marketing up to this point. Its a goddamn mess.
ThomasKDo you even know pricing yet? Please man, either stow your crystal ball away or shut up.
You're at liberty to shut up yourself, if this is all you can bring to a discussion. If you have tangible info that 9070XT is going to be more than a dud, please do enlighten us.
DaemonForceYeah this is what I was thinking just over a week ago and it turns out that hint was right.
The 9070XT is the flagship for that series and is not an ascension in performance.
If nothing else it appears to be a regression with pixel rate falling way behind.
It sort of keeps up with the 7900XT, keeps up with the 5080 in some FP16/64 ops and that's about it.

Oh...

Maybe there's still something worth our attention here. I'm not interested in AAA and Steam knows most of us aren't either.
I'm more interested in streaming VR and some desktop with the same excellent encode model that keeps nVidia in business.
16GB memory, fine. A pixel/texture rate several times the power of my RX580, fine. I don't need much. It just needs to be enough.

"BuT mUh AI-" Stfu. Literally nobody cares. :slap:

If AI/RT/PT were that important, that's all gamers would care about.
People already know full well that this junk causes frames to tank, HARD.
Most of us run cards that either game fine or getting long in the tooth, sub-60FPS.
We don't have a firm grasp on older games yet and I'm not running into RT/PT blind.
It's a fool's errand to believe these newer cards aren't going to continue to struggle.

UDNA will have to finally address this with a new core technology dedicated to these ops just like everyone else.
It's an elephant in the room that is slowly snacking and growing. But for now...This might be okay.
It ain't even properly keeping up with the 7900XT given the power budget and supposed shaders, just not happening, much like how Nvidia will never cross the shader deficit to surpass 4090 with their 5080. The architectures are practically the same. Shaders are shaders. Maybe you can get 15% from clocks, and that's being optimistic, and when you do, you'll be using far more power for it. Its a complete standstill, and both parties are going to be selling featureset.

AMD is doing what Nvidia does on their stack, once again: minimal progress for maximum pricing, as close as possible to the relative price of last gen. Nvidia literally translated shader count to price gaps. 5080, half the shaders, half the price of x90. AMD is following suit. I bet they'll try to get 499,- for this, or more, for what is essentially a refreshed 7800XT.
Posted on Reply
#36
DaemonForce
Vayra86AMD is following suit. I bet they'll try to get 499,- for this, or more, for what is essentially a refreshed 7800XT.
I get that there's not supposed to be major improvement this gen.
But it's been a few. There should at least be some improvement.
If AMD releases a dog ass flagship $500 even within ~100 of that spot then that's GG no RE.
Long past time to sell off Radeon to a company that cares about making GPUs.
We can't have one company in the world putting everyone in mass psychosis with their dog ass prices.
I don't care if Intel and Apple are in the same game, they're the same snake of predatory greedy garbage.

If I can't properly sunset my current hardware, I'm spinning up the rack and doing full time x264 encodes on FX.
This whole mess is so stupid and I know a LOT about stupid. It impressed me this time.
Posted on Reply
#37
QuietBob
initially FSR 4 will be available on the RX 9000 series, but the company will assess specific SKUs from previous generations that it thinks are capable of the AI acceleration performance needed
For those who care about upscaling and frame generation, this is good news. FSR4 should eventually find its way to the 7000 series, and possibly top 6000 models.

If I were to guess, Navi 31 is almost certain to receive it, having untapped compute potential. Navi 32 is very likely to get it, as well. Not sure about Navi 21 though, the extra AI processing may be too costly to justify its implementation.
Posted on Reply
#38
wNotyarD
QuietBobFor those who care about upscaling and frame generation, this is good news. FSR4 should eventually find its way to the 7000 series, and possibly top 6000 models.

If I were to guess, Navi 31 is almost certain to receive it, having untapped compute potential. Navi 32 is very likely to get it, as well. Not sure about Navi 21 though, the extra AI processing may be too costly to justify its implementation.
Using ROCm support as basis, I believe the 7900's (GRE, XT and XTX) may receive it quite easily. Sure, it may not be anytime soon as we know the Radeon division likes to take its sweet time getting its gears into motion, but it should come.

Wouldn't bet on RDNA2 and lesser RDNA3 getting it, though.
Posted on Reply
#39
kapone32
For the Paper launch crowd. Why were there so many AIB models at CES?
Posted on Reply
#40
remekra
Interesting info from KitGuru:


So if they are correct the drivers are there but are limited, so 3Dmark scores are lower by around 20%. There was a leak of TimeSpy run with 9070XT, someone can add 20% to it and we may have the real performance of that card. Or maybe its false info, who knows.
Overall really strange behaviour.
Posted on Reply
#41
Kyan
WirkoTrue... that's probably the first naming scheme in the PC world that starts with a nine. Is the counting supposed to continue in hexadecimal?
GTX 900 series, intel 9000 series, AMD Ryzen 9000 series.
I don't count moving a number from second to third place as a new naming scheme. It's just a useless change, that really won't change anything and don't follow a big architecture change or any manufacturing evolution.
Posted on Reply
#42
ThomasK
Vayra86Yes, I do. Its not hard to conclude this based on the facts so far, and AMD's marketing up to this point. Its a goddamn mess.


You're at liberty to shut up yourself, if this is all you can bring to a discussion. If you have tangible info that 9070XT is going to be more than a dud, please do enlighten us.
You cry way too much for someone who's giving them money. It's either that, or you're faking it.

And thank you so much, but I'd much rather wait for the official release, than keep wasting my time here, writing huge texts riddled with SPECULATIONS.
Posted on Reply
#43
Gasaraki
What a load of crock. If they had big awesome announcements, you really think that they wouldn't fit them in? RDNA 4 must not be ready.
Posted on Reply
#44
Cheeseball
Not a Potato
bugWhat we know is it will be a 7900XT level card. And that Nvidia will offer the 5070 for $550. If the 5070 will be a mild upgrade over the 4070, it will match the 9070XT. I don't see many ways how this is a good thing for AMD. Or us.
The 5070 may actually be “weaker” than the 4070 Super, as it shows on paper. It has fewer cores at 6144 compared to the SUPER’s 7168, but maybe the newer GDDR7 and architectural improvements would push it over a bit.

The 5070 Ti should more or less be better than the 4070 Ti Super with the 256-bit memory bus and slightly more cores, and most likely 128 ROPs.
Posted on Reply
#45
Visible Noise
vvtunesI wish someone could explain me why RDNA 3 cards won't get FSR 4, or at least some lesser version e.g. FSR 3.9, aided by some AI features.
Because AMD lied when the said they added ML to RDNA 3. What they did was added shader instructions that runs ML (matrix math) in the graphics pipeline.

Real ML has specialized and dedicated hardware (tensor cores) to do matrix math.
DaemonForceUDNA will have to finally address this with a new core technology dedicated to these ops just like everyone else.
It's an elephant in the room that is slowly snacking and growing. But for now...This might be okay.
But it’s two years away at a minimum. How do they stay afloat until then?
ThomasKDo you even know pricing yet? Please man, either stow your crystal ball away or shut up.
We know the die size - 390mm. Roughly 15% larger than 7800 XT.

How low do you think it can be priced?
Posted on Reply
#46
kapone32
Visible NoiseBut it’s two years away at a minimum. How do they stay afloat until then?
Handhelds are going to keep AMD Graphics going. I can see those in All In ones next. Even Asus and MSI are releasing APU based laptops. If you don't think they are going to make sales of $6000 5090 based laptops harder you would be wrong. Then I already commented on the importance of the Steam Deck and specifically Steam OS for users with Radeon PCs. Even if this card is priced right AMD will do fine.
Posted on Reply
#47
Visible Noise
remekraInteresting info from KitGuru:


So if they are correct the drivers are there but are limited, so 3Dmark scores are lower by around 20%. There was a leak of TimeSpy run with 9070XT, someone can add 20% to it and we may have the real performance of that card. Or maybe its false info, who knows.
Overall really strange behaviour.
Wow, it‘s like watching a replay of the Vega launch. The exact same things were said then.

And we know how that turned out in the end.
kapone32Handhelds are going to keep AMD Graphics going. I can see those in All In ones next. Even Asus and MSI are releasing APU based laptops. If you don't think they are going to make sales of $6000 5090 based laptops harder you would be wrong. Then I already commented on the importance of the Steam Deck and specifically Steam OS for users with Radeon PCs. Even if this card is priced right AMD will do fine.
Have you missed the handhelds that are using Intel SOCs?

Also, I think you are vastly overestimating the size of the market for a handheld PC. That market is literally owned by Nintendo.
Posted on Reply
#48
kapone32
Visible NoiseHave you missed the handhelds that are using Intel SOCs?

Also, I think you are vastly overestimating the size of the market for a handheld PC. That market is literally owned by Nintendo.
You mean the MSI Claw?

Nintendo owns the handheld PC market?

Can you install Steam on the Switch?

There is a difference between the handheld PC market and Gaming handhelds. The current market I am talking about is the Steam Deck and all of it's clones and contemporaries. Maybe you missed that the new Legion Go comes with Steam OS or the fact that the Steam Deck has been in the top 10 of Global sales on Steam since launch. There was also a huge uptake on the ROG ally where I live when it was $100 off during Black Friday. Coming back to the Legion Go, even though it was the most expensive of the the first Gen Win 11 (ok) handhelds, they obviously sold enough of them to inspire them to make a new one. Then look at Acer and not one but 3 handhelds.
Posted on Reply
#49
Visible Noise
kapone32You mean the MSI Claw?

Nintendo owns the handheld PC market?

Can you install Steam on the Switch?

There is a difference between the handheld PC market and Gaming handhelds. The current market I am talking about is the Steam Deck and all of its clones and contemporaries. Maybe you missed that the new Legion Go comes with Steam OS or the fact that the Steam Deck has been in the top 10 of Global sales on Steam since launch. There was also a huge uptake on the ROG ally where I live when it was $100 off during Black Friday. Coming back to the Legion Go, even though it was the most expensive of the the first Gen Win 11 (ok) handhelds, they obviously sold enough of them to inspire them to make a new one. Then look at Acer and not one but 3 handhelds.
I haven’t missed a thing. Just because a product exists doesn’t mean it’s successful. Handheld PC gaming is a tiny tiny niche. Ask the average person on the street what a Steamdeck is and they will have no idea. Now ask the average person on the street what a Switch is and either they or their kids will have one.

Prove me wrong, show me some somewhat citable sales numbers.

AMD’s Graphics Division made a profit of $12M last quarter. They have said in their investor call that console revenue is declining quickly, it‘s the end of console cycle. You’re in fantasy land if you think Steamdeck type products are going to make up for the revenue loss from Xbox and PlayStation. Do you think AMD is able to get as much money from small off the shelf mobile SOC as they get for the big custom chips in the colsoles?
Posted on Reply
#50
kapone32
Visible NoiseI haven’t missed a thing. Just because a product exists doesn’t mean it’s successful. Handheld PC gaming is a tiny tiny niche. Ask the average person on the street what a Steamdeck is and they will have no idea. Now ask the average person on the street what a Switch is and either they or their kids will have one.

Prove me wrong, show me some somewhat citable sales numbers.

AMD’s Graphics Division made a profit of $12M last quarter. They have said in their investor call that console revenue is declining quickly, it‘s the end of console cycle. You’re in fantasy land if you think Steamdeck type products are going to make up for the revenue loss from Xbox and PlayStation. Do you think AMD is able to get as much money from small off the shelf mobile SOC as they get for the big custom chips in the colsoles?
Are AMD APUs Graphics cards or CPUs?
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