Tuesday, January 7th 2025

AMD Explains Missing RDNA 4 Announcements At CES

Perhaps the biggest surprise at AMD's January 6 CES keynote address was the omission of the Radeon RX 9070 series desktop graphics cards, and the RDNA 4 graphics architecture. This was particularly because the CES Pre-brief slide-deck that AMD provided to press included materials about Radeon, but the actual presentation on stage lacked that content. Immediately after the event, AMD leadership, including David McAfee and Frank Azor agreed to sit down with a small group of tech journalists for a roundtable talk, and we had a seat. In this article, we will try to share what we can. The talk began with addressing the elephant in the room, about why AMD omitted Radeon-related announcements in Jack Huynh's keynote address and the company also confirmed that providing press with pre-brief Radeon info was intentional, and they knew that info wouldn't be included on the main stage.

AMD says that the 45-minute keynote address didn't provide sufficient time to properly announce the Radeon RX 9070 series and RDNA 4. The company pointed to other announcements it omitted in the keynote, such as the Ryzen Z2 line of gaming handheld chips. The company says that Radeon-related announcements, would have needed a much greater time-share in the keynote, to detail the change in the product naming (more on this later), where the RX 9070 series fit into the market, the advancements made by RDNA 4, and new technology such as FSR 4.
AMD said that the Radeon RX 9070 series could see the light of the day in Q1 2025, and that the company will do at least an online media event to launch them. This hour-long presentation will give the team a better opportunity to dive deep into the nuts and bolts of RDNA 4 and the RX 9000 series. The company wouldn't confirm the exact date on which it plans to launch these cards, but we know from the pre-brief presentation that the launch is within Q1 2025, and that all of AMD's add-in board partners have their custom design cards ready.

We then jumped into the rabbit hole of product naming, and why AMD chose to give up a gaming GPU model naming scheme that it had built over three generations of Navi, starting with the RX 5000 series, succeeded by the RX 6000, and the RX 7000. The RX 5000 series now over 5 years old, so the market has had quite a bit of exposure to this naming scheme. AMD first sought to explain why it skipped the RX 8000 series. The company said that it wanted to align the model numbering with the Ryzen 9000 series desktop processors.

In the second half of AMD's answer, the company sought to explain the change from something like the "RX 9700 XT" to the "RX 9070 XT." The rumors are true, AMD wanted to make it easier for gamers to identify competitive positioning of SKUs, by giving them a naming scheme similar to "the competition," namely NVIDIA. This way, gamers would compare the RX 9070 XT to NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 5070 or the RTX 5070 Ti; and the future RX 9060 XT with the RTX 5060 Ti or RTX 5060.

A journalist then asked what was on everyone's mind at that point—if you're doing this to train consumers, then will this naming scheme stick. The Radeon RX "Navi" family is now already at the 9000 series, and the next generation will probably have to either be the "RX 10070" or bring yet another change. To this, AMD agreed that it cannot commit to a naming scheme, it constantly assesses the market and consumer behavior, and implements whatever works.

The next question by one of the journalists sought AMD's comment on what is the decision tree that led to the development of RDNA 4. AMD responded that it wanted to seek volumes, mainly to identify key segments of the market that pushed the most volumes, and then try to win in those segments with products that delivered higher performance per dollar and efficiency. The bulk of the market is running after the 70-series and the 60-series (eg: the RTX 4070 and the RTX 4060), and so AMD could save itself a lot of product development by only focusing on winnable segments. The company does not have to prove its ability to create enthusiast-segment GPUs, that's just not where the market is at. The switch to the 70-series and 60-series naming scheme was more to make it easier to reach out to the market volume.

AMD was also asked for its reaction on the Intel Arc B580 "Battlemage," specifically on how Intel succeeded in winning praise from both the press and gamers for a well-rounded product at $250. AMD's response sounded like they are very impressed with the B580. "I think it's a testament that if you bring features and performance to a great value price-point, it will really resonate with consumers." They seemed to agree that AMD's strategy will be very similar to that of Intel—to impress upon the largest volume segments of the market with high performance/dollar products.

AMD says that it got a lot of praise as well as flack from the RDNA 3 generation, and is trying to replicate the things that brought it praise. The RX 7000 series only had a couple of home-runs, such as the RX 7800 XT and the RX 7900 GRE, and the company's effort will be to replicate the success of those products.
The attention then turned to FSR 4, and a footnote in AMD's pre-brief presentation slide which said that FSR 4 will only be available to the RX 9070 series for supported games with FSR 3.1 already integrated. AMD said that FSR 4 uses a machine-learning based algorithm to reconstruct details in its super resolution component, and that RDNA 4 provides a significant uplift in MLops over the previous generations of RDNA, and so initially FSR 4 will be available on the RX 9000 series, but the company will assess specific SKUs from previous generations that it thinks are capable of the AI acceleration performance needed for FSR 4 SR algorithm to work without imposing a prohibitive performance or latency cost. FSR 4 will be a significant improvement not just in frame-rate at a given preset, but also image quality.

We then asked AMD about its priorities in developing RDNA 4, and explain why they'd ranked something high or something else a bit low. Their priority number 1 was to focus on improving performance in areas that gamers care about the most. You should expect in this generation to see big ray tracing improvements, big MLops (AI acceleration) improvements, for things like FSR 4 and ML Super Resolution.

The second priority is that every component on the GPU is designed for efficiency, not just in terms of energy efficiency, but in terms of the things that will allow AMD to price the product competitively—the right manufacturing process, the right die-size, the right memory type. In other words, AMD is preparing for a very stiff price war against NVIDIA and potentially Intel, where it doesn't want exotic hardware design decisions to erect barriers for the marketing team.

The third and smaller priority was go-to-market. If you recall, AMD was significantly slower than NVIDIA at going to market with the Radeon RX 7000 series. The RX 7900 series arrived at a time when NVIDIA had almost concluded rolling out the RTX 40-series. AMD wants to avoid that this time around, and you should see a fairly brisk set of product launches by AMD in the RX 9000 series.
Lastly, AMD refuted performance claims about the RX 9000 series GPUs doing rounds on the Internet. "Nobody has the final driver, not even the board manufacturers, so don't believe performance claims on the Internet," AMD quipped.
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77 Comments on AMD Explains Missing RDNA 4 Announcements At CES

#51
3valatzy
Visible NoiseWe know the die size - 390mm. Roughly 15% larger than 7800 XT.

How low do you think it can be priced?
It depends on how many AMD wants to sell. Lower means more sales.
390 mm^2 is definitely too large. A guess is that they invested too much area for ray-tracing units. Because a so large chip with so few compute units (64 or 4096 shaders) doesn't make sense.
Posted on Reply
#52
G777
vvtunesI wish someone could explain me why RDNA 3 cards won't get FSR 4, or at least some lesser version e.g. FSR 3.9, aided by some AI features.
From the article:
AMD said that FSR 4 uses a machine-learning based algorithm to reconstruct details in its super resolution component, and that RDNA 4 provides a significant uplift in MLops over the previous generations of RDNA, and so initially FSR 4 will be available on the RX 9000 series, but the company will assess specific SKUs from previous generations that it thinks are capable of the AI acceleration performance needed for FSR 4 SR algorithm to work without imposing a prohibitive performance or latency cost.
Posted on Reply
#53
Random_User
Vayra86Oh my fcking god. What a mess. 9070XT is already DOA
This is a mess indeed. Maybe it's not particularly DOA, but AMD has done everything for it to look like that. Such a sour taste, that leaves absolutely no interest left for the product series, that is not even released. This is simply unbelievable how the company can hate own products that much, that decided to sabotage it this way. It's kind like they wanna and don't want to show/shy of their stuff at same time. At this point, AMD would have better give basically zero info about RDNA4 at all, and make it complete mystery, until the release date.

Let's be clear, this was just the perfect time and chance, to advertise and gone a second breath into the Radeon brand's name, and it's public image. This was about the thing to revive interest into it. And AMD just took a shovel and dug it so deep, where the sun doesn't shine anymore. This is just baffling. Whoever is behind this marketing, is just complete enemy to the AMD's Radeon brand.

And this is after so many AIB cards being already done, so much efforts put into this. This is even worse than a last moment, temporary knee-jerk solution, that Radeon VII was. This is obvious, that AMD has different priorities. But shoving the disgrace towards ow products leaves no confidence for the potential customers.

After this flop, nVidia is just has basically an open road to their entire upcoming stack.
Posted on Reply
#54
bug
CheeseballThe 5070 may actually be “weaker” than the 4070 Super, as it shows on paper. It has fewer cores at 6144 compared to the SUPER’s 7168, but maybe the newer GDDR7 and architectural improvements would push it over a bit.

The 5070 Ti should more or less be better than the 4070 Ti Super with the 256-bit memory bus and slightly more cores, and most likely 128 ROPs.
Even with only minute improvements over the 4070, I believe 5070 will score too close for comfort.
Don't get me wrong, I was always about the mid-range cards (and still am). But where I was hoping AMD would really put pressure on Nvidia, it now seems they'll play the "me, too" card. Again.
Posted on Reply
#55
3valatzy
Random_UserThis is a mess indeed. Maybe it's not particularly DOA, but AMD has done everything for it to look like that. Such a sour taste, that leaves absolutely no interest left for the product series, that is not even released. This is simply unbelievable how the company can hate own products that much, that decided to sabotage it this way. It's kind like they wanna and don't want to show/shy of their stuff at same time. At this point, AMD would have better give basically zero info about RDNA4 at all, and make it complete mystery, until the release date.

Let's be clear, this was just the perfect time and chance, to advertise and gone a second breath into the Radeon brand's name, and it's public image. This was about the thing to revive interest into it. And AMD just took a shovel and dug it so deep, where the sun doesn't shine anymore. This is just baffling. Whoever is behind this marketing, is just complete enemy to the AMD's Radeon brand.

And this is after so many AIB cards being already done, so much efforts put into this. This is even worse than a last moment, temporary knee-jerk solution, that Radeon VII was. This is obvious, that AMD has different priorities. But shoving the disgrace towards ow products leaves no confidence for the potential customers.

After this flop, nVidia is just has basically an open road to their entire upcoming stack.
Maybe there is contract between Lisa Su and her uncle JHH to not compete? There is no other normal explanation as to why AMD is so determined to leave the graphics cards market.
This is also the reason why it is the best for AMD to let Su go.
Posted on Reply
#56
Cheeseball
Not a Potato
3valatzyMaybe there is contract between Lisa Su and her uncle JHH to not compete? There is no other normal explanation as to why AMD is so determined to leave the graphics cards market.
This is also the reason why it is the best for AMD to let Su go.
This would not make sense when the CPU division is thriving.
Posted on Reply
#57
GodisanAtheist
3valatzyIt depends on how many AMD wants to sell. Lower means more sales.
390 mm^2 is definitely too large. A guess is that they invested too much area for ray-tracing units. Because a so large chip with so few compute units (64 or 4096 shaders) doesn't make sense.
There has got to be more to this story.

4080S is a 377mm^2 4N die. Either the size of the die is wrong, or the performance is wrong, or the CU count is wrong. Or AMD really screwed the pooch that badly.

Something is wrong.
Posted on Reply
#58
Cheeseball
Not a Potato
bugEven with only minute improvements over the 4070, I believe 5070 will score too close for comfort.
Don't get me wrong, I was always about the mid-range cards (and still am). But where I was hoping AMD would really put pressure on Nvidia, it now seems they'll play the "me, too" card. Again.
It'll most likely end up like the RTX 3060 12GB vs the RTX 4060, where the 4060 is 10% to 20% faster in general despite having weaker specs on-paper.
Posted on Reply
#59
sLowEnd
I suspect AMD is not very confident in their own product, if they're acting like this
Posted on Reply
#60
3valatzy
CheeseballThis would not make sense when the CPU division is thriving.
Nvidia doesn't compete with AMD's CPU division. I know Nvidia wants that x86, but the best for us is to not get it ever. Even a hostile takeover of Nvidia over AMD will not be given a green light.
The only thing that saves AMD for now is the presence of a x86 license.
Posted on Reply
#61
Cheeseball
Not a Potato
3valatzyNvidia doesn't compete with AMD's CPU division. I know Nvidia wants that x86, but the best for us is to not get it ever. Even a hostile takeover of Nvidia over AMD will not be given a green light.
The only thing that saves AMD for now is the presence of a x86 license.
No, no I mean your comment about "This is also the reason why it is the best for AMD to let Su go." That wouldn't make sense when it was under her leadership that the CPU division was able to grow to what it is today.

If anything, what AMD should do is find someone who can concentrate on leading the Radeon division or at least the discrete graphics consumer part of it.
Posted on Reply
#62
Visible Noise
kapone32Are AMD APUs Graphics cards or CPUs?
You implied they are graphics cards:
kapone32Handhelds are going to keep AMD Graphics going.
I know you wouldn’t attempt to move the goalposts, so I’ll just assume you’re confused
Posted on Reply
#63
Wirko
KyanGTX 900 series, intel 9000 series, AMD Ryzen 9000 series.
I don't count moving a number from second to third place as a new naming scheme. It's just a useless change, that really won't change anything and don't follow a big architecture change or any manufacturing evolution.
It still is a new numbering scheme, and the digit that's supposed to mark the generation is 9, no less. How do you continue counting from 9? Is it A? Is it zero? Is it 10? Alpha? Perhaps 10 written as X (we need more cowbell)? Or maybe 8, why not?
Posted on Reply
#64
kapone32
Visible NoiseYou implied they are graphics cards:


I know you wouldn’t attempt to move the goalposts, so I’ll just assume you’re confused
It does not matter what I imply. What did AMD list them as in their 3rd Quarter numbers?


I am confused? When we know that Strix Point is coming? Have you ever seen MSI or Asus release a notebook without a DGPU? Have you ever seen a new format come as fast as the Ally, Legion and the absolute litany of handhelds from that 1 Chinese supplier? You have it in your head that AMD Graphics are useless and are using the drop in GPU revenue as a basis. I asked you if the APUs were a part of those numbers and you came back with moving goal posts. It does not matter how much we do Spy vs Spy AMD still made over 3 billion in profit last quarter. What I don't understand is Nvidia has already won the narrative battle but people still love to bash AMD at every chance like we should be disgusted with what they are offering. Today is not the first time that an uninformed comment that Lisa Su must go shows how deep it goes. I had to add it. Zotac are releasing a handheld. Do they make AMD GPUs? Well they are using an AMD chip in that. How many are using Intel again? can you list them?
Posted on Reply
#65
Dr. Dro
sLowEndI suspect AMD is not very confident in their own product, if they're acting like this
Yeah, that seems to be the case. They are being unusually meek about it and I reckon it's possible the 5070 sent them in a frenzy trying to come up with a price point for this thing, except that... they might not be able to make it look competitive due to BoM cost or something. It's all speculation for now but it really did leave a particularly poor impression.
Posted on Reply
#66
DaemonForce
It's more than likely they just don't have any information or units to demo.
Drivers not ready, no units ready, no slides ready for CES...
They went into this keeping hush about RDNA4 because there's nothing ready.
It could also be it's going to be another paper launch product that gets quickly snubbed by orders.
Probably can't fill the fab with this one.
Posted on Reply
#67
Visible Noise
kapone32It does not matter what I imply. What did AMD list them as in their 3rd Quarter numbers?


I am confused?
Zooooommmm…
DaemonForceIt's more than likely they just don't have any information or units to demo.
Drivers not ready, no units ready, no slides ready for CES...
They went into this keeping hush about RDNA4 because there's nothing ready.
It could also be it's going to be another paper launch product that gets quickly snubbed by orders.
Probably can't fill the fab with this one.
I’m still going with Vega 2.0. The damage to their reputation and finances is going to be catastrophic.
kapone32AMD still made over 3 billion in profit last quarter.
Whoa dude, whatever you are on can you send me some please?
AMD Reports Third Quarter 2024 Financial Results


SANTA CLARA, Calif. ― October 29, 2024 ― AMD (NASDAQ:AMD) today announced revenue for the third quarter of 2024 of $6.8 billion, gross margin of 50%, operating income of $724 million, net income of $771 million and diluted earnings per share of $0.47.
Posted on Reply
#68
Dr. Dro
Visible NoiseI’m still going with Vega 2.0. The damage to their reputation and finances is going to be catastrophic.
I mean, it can't get much worse. The only people left using Radeon dGPUs are diehard fans who swore to stick by them... and even these people's loyalty, which is rooted in nothing but their own bias and insanity, is being put to the test by now.
Posted on Reply
#69
DaemonForce
Nah. Ya'll seriously overestimating here. There are other creators on Radeon. Some act exclusive to it because "poverty" or whatever.
I tried to guide one through choosing components today, she was looking up AM5 boards and it was hella cringe.
I think it might have something to do with young people on old junk and it's mostly right.
"Why is there math in the name?" - Reference to the ASUS TUF GAMING X870-PLUS WIFI AMD AM5 X870 ATX motherboard, 16+2+1, 80A SPS...
"Lol I ain't readin all dat"
"Who's reading cards? I just stick it in the machine and let it do its thing." - In direct reference to these $700+ absolute brick sized video cards...
"Everything I just read, I'm gonna forget ALL of it by tomorrow."

I think that's fair. Artists, autists, what have you...They're not us.
They're built a little different. Maybe incorrectly.
I didn't stick around to get hit with any non-Euclidean slurs so we're good.
Guys, it goes back to what I've been saying about video cards.
People don't give a shit about any of this. They see a familiar brand, ask if it's good and "cool, ship it." Done.
That's how ANY of these companies survive long enough to make a sale.
People don't want to look at specs or DOA stats, they don't google "problems with X" or "why X sucks" they just get it.
If they had the time or energy to pour into even a little bit of that, they probably wouldn't be (starving) artists let alone a skrunkly PNG slideshow.
A lot of them game sometimes but they all tend to hit the go live button ritualistically. They have some good ideas like 1080p60 desktop and VR.
Too bad they don't pay attention to stuff that behaves exactly the way they want.
Posted on Reply
#70
remekra
Well they even have FSR4 up and running in the booth and it looks great:


Makes it even more bizarre on why they decided to completely skip it in the keynote
Posted on Reply
#71
ZoneDymo
1. Fire Azor already pls, he is the complete opposite of what Tom Peterson is doing over at Intel's gpu department.
2. "To this, AMD agreed that it cannot commit to a naming scheme, it constantly assesses the market and consumer behavior, and implements whatever works."
Oh yeah, because you guys TOTALLY know what works, the massive sales compared to the competition show that for suuuure.

Christ I HATE AMD at times.

"The company does not have to prove its ability to create enthusiast-segment GPUs, that's just not where the market is at."

Would have loved if the journalists would have continued on that point, DF member John Linneman has stated that he feels the inclusion of a halo product is needed for product perception and I think that is true to an extend, thought I guess you can have your halo product in a lower segment as well.
Like im sure there would be more real world hype for a super solid super affordable cool fast hatchback from Honda then a Ferrari, the Ferrari is fun but just something to look at on youtube, while the Honda is something you would go and buy as long as it really just wins against the competition, makes on feel good about the purchase.

But man....how long has it been since AMD actually had the top dog, I think the doubled up AMD 295X2 was the last one
Posted on Reply
#72
kapone32
Dr. DroI mean, it can't get much worse. The only people left using Radeon dGPUs are diehard fans who swore to stick by them... and even these people's loyalty, which is rooted in nothing but their own bias and insanity, is being put to the test by now.
Yeah because Nvidia's pricing is so competitive and their UI is up to date. Not everyone subscribes to the DLSS, RT narrative. People keep referencing Nvidia's dominance but then try to make AMD users seem foolish because they don't subscribe to Nvidia's features. The funny thing about it is that it is always the same users that are bashing AMD.
Posted on Reply
#73
bug
kapone32Yeah because Nvidia's pricing is so competitive
It's through the roof. But it doesn't matter while AMD matches that instead of undercutting.
kapone32and their UI is up to date.
That's about as important as the graphics on the box it comes in. If it works, don't fix it.
kapone32Not everyone subscribes to the DLSS, RT narrative. People keep referencing Nvidia's dominance but then try to make AMD users seem foolish because they don't subscribe to Nvidia's features. The funny thing about it is that it is always the same users that are bashing AMD.
Someday it will dawn on you that, while AMD pretends those are useless features, they still implement them. Why would they do that, if there was virtually no demand?
The last time AMD innovated in the consumer GPU space was back when they introduced tessellation. And that was actually ATI.
Posted on Reply
#74
kapone32
bugIt's through the roof. But it doesn't matter while AMD matches that instead of undercutting.

That's about as important as the graphics on the box it comes in. If it works, don't fix it.

Someday it will dawn on you that, while AMD pretends those are useless features, they still implement them. Why would they do that, if there was virtually no demand?
The last time AMD innovated in the consumer GPU space was back when they introduced tessellation. And that was actually ATI.
There you have hit the nail on the head. In a perfect world a Mustang is almost as fast as a Ferrari but the Ferrari has more accoutrements and burns fuel faster. In this space the narrative has convinced people that the Ferrari is a better buy because of those.

AMD does not pretend. My 7900 card can do RT. It is my position that I don't need those things and therefore will not pay a premium for them. I have lived through PhysX and Hairworks.

You made that comment about the UI because you have never experienced AMD software. If you are into computing it is very granular but I understand that 20 years is a long time. Just like Mccaffee in HP pre-builts.

Yep fake frames, the only reason Nvidia "innovated" is because AMD caught them on raster. AI became a buzzword and the rest is history.
Posted on Reply
#75
Hecate91
bugIt's through the roof. But it doesn't matter while AMD matches that instead of undercutting.
The nvidia pricing does matter because they control the market. And I doubt it would matter how much AMD could undercut because people would still buy from nvidia anyway, while AMD would take a loss on every card sold.
bugThat's about as important as the graphics on the box it comes in. If it works, don't fix it.
It is important when the UI of the control panel has most things people will use unified into a single application. I take you've never used the Adrenalin control panel, it does work very well.
bugSomeday it will dawn on you that, while AMD pretends those are useless features, they still implement them. Why would they do that, if there was virtually no demand?
The last time AMD innovated in the consumer GPU space was back when they introduced tessellation. And that was actually ATI.
Those features are there because, again nvidia controls the market, reviewers and nvidia buyers whine when AMD doesn't have a feature then still complain when it gets added because it isn't the nvidia proprietary feature.
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