:rolleyes:
This horrid 2DHD thing needs to die a swift death.

@ SquareEnix
Please start doing proper remakes, or at the least give us the option to use proper HD character GFX sets. This blended HD-pixel-art crap is just not visually appealing or compelling.

lexluthermiester:rolleyes:
This horrid 2DHD thing needs to die a swift death.

I like the render :)

lexluthermiester@ SquareEnix
Please start doing proper remakes, or at the least give us the option to use proper HD character GFX sets. This blended HD-pixel-art crap is just not visually appealing or compelling.

Yoo too, you're waiting for proper SoulBlazer, Terranigma and others remakes / remades ?
It would be the best announce for a while, I hope seeing this.
(Actraiser Renaissance was OK, but not as good as expected though !)

lexluthermiester:rolleyes:
This horrid 2DHD thing needs to die a swift death.

@ SquareEnix
Please start doing proper remakes, or at the least give us the option to use proper HD character GFX sets. This blended HD-pixel-art crap is just not visually appealing or compelling.

HAHA, don't count on them doing any thing right these days, looks what they did with just cause.

KrazyTYoo too, you're waiting for proper SoulBlazer, Terranigma and others remakes / remades ?

Yeah, that would be nice! Just not the 2DHD nonsense.

AsRockHAHA, don't count on them doing any thing right these days, looks what they did with just cause.

Yeah, it's really kinda sad.

Proper

next best thing........pixel remaster perhaps?

nothing wrong with this remake. keeping close too original is fine. Much nicer look to support 2k/4k
playing Suikoden remake and so nice on 4k.
Will get dragon quest once its out.

mechtechProper

next best thing........pixel remaster perhaps?

This is better;
I actually have this game, both the original Japanese cart and the english fan translation.
If I'm going to play a pixelated version, this is the one I'll chose, all day, any day.

Sp33d Junki3nothing wrong with this remake. keeping close too original is fine. Much nicer look to support 2k/4k
playing Suikoden remake and so nice on 4k.
Will get dragon quest once its out.

You do you.

lexluthermiesterI actually have this game, both the original Japanese cart and the english translation.
If I'm going to play a pixelated version, this is the one I'll chose, all day, any day.

I'm more or less on the same line as you, but i'll give you another exemple :
I'm a big fan of Zelda 2, I know it almost by heart, so I won't be against a new / remaster version to have a bit of surprise in it :)
(whatever, in 16 bits pixels, 2D HD as they say, 3D ...
I still rebember some test screenshoots of Zelda 2 running on the Snes hardware)

KrazyTI'm a big fan of Zelda 2, I know it almost by heart, so I won't be against a new / remaster version to have a bit of surprise in it :)

Nintendo would get that right though. None of this half-baked, half-arsed nonsense.

lexluthermiester:rolleyes:
This horrid 2DHD thing needs to die a swift death.

@ SquareEnix
Please start doing proper remakes, or at the least give us the option to use proper HD character GFX sets. This blended HD-pixel-art crap is just not visually appealing or compelling.

Once again it's a you problem, the HD-2D remake of Dragon Quest 3 was a success, which allowed them to increase their operating income in that sector despite their other games underperforming and failing to meet sales expectations. They have no reason to listen to you :D.

They've also made a survey that showed that this art style is actually a selling point.

What's more, as Noisy Pixel reports, these huge sales mean Dragon Quest 3 HD-2D Remake is Square Enix's most successful Japanese launch since - guess what? - the last game in the series, Dragon Quest 11, in 2017.

It's also the biggest game launch since The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom last year, according to Famitsu estimates.

dyonoctisOnce again it's a you problem

Ok, sure..

dyonoctisthe HD-2D remake of Dragon Quest 3 was a success

So was the original Final Fantasy 7 on the PSX. Success does NOT equal quality. FF7 was even more of a graphical mess and it's unworthy of the laurels it got. And yet it sold to the masses like hot-cakes. What does that say about the masses?

dyonoctisThey have no reason to listen to you :D.

Oh, I'm sooo wounded.. :rolleyes: ...tear...

dyonoctisThey've also made a survey that showed that this art style is actually a selling point.

Again, that says nothing about quality. It says something about the masses and that something is not a good thing.

lexluthermiesterOk, sure..

So was the original Final Fantasy 7 on the PSX. Success does NOT equal quality. FF7 was even more of a graphical mess and it's unworthy of the laurels it got. And yet it sold to the masses like hot-cakes. What does that say about the masses?

Oh, I'm sooo wounded.. :rolleyes: ...tear...

Again, that says nothing about quality. It says something about the masses and that something is not a good thing.

I probably don't understand your issue so forgive me if that's the case and I'm off the mark here, I mean I have played wonderboy dragon's lair and double dragon remakes both in the same 2d platform style they released in 30 years ago with updated graphics and textures etc and whilst I would still probably opt for the original 8bit graphics mode if it is available just for nostalgia reasons, it is refreshing they are re-releasing these old classics with updated graphics and support for HD screens, otherwise just grab an emulator and play it in it's original 240x320 (just picked a number not sure if that was the actual resolution lol) also adds in modern controller support, native Windows compatibility and just updates them a little bit to keep up with modern standards and fidelity, it is subjective and having seen your opinion in 2 separate threads relating to similar remakes they obviously aren't for you, though there definitely is a large enough market for them to put the time and effort into making these remasters/remakes IMO

Marcus LI probably don't understand your issue so forgive me if that's the case and I'm off the mark here, I mean I have played wonderboy dragon's lair and double dragon remakes both in the same 2d platform style they released in 30 years ago with updated graphics and textures etc and whilst I would still probably opt for the original 8bit graphics mode if it is available just for nostalgia reasons,

The problem is the mix of remastered HD GFX of the game world deliberately intertwined with pixelated player character/NPC GFX. It's visually irritating and looks like crap.

Marcus Lit is subjective and having seen your opinion in 2 separate threads relating to similar remakes they obviously aren't for you, though there definitely is a large enough market for them to put the time and effort into making these remasters/remakes IMO

You bet, it is very much is subjective. But I am far from alone and I voice my opinion to send a message and do it on behalf of everyone else out there who feels similarly. And let's face facts, these companies are trying to motivate us to give them our money. They have to earn it. By presenting a product, or set of products, that do not meet reasonable standards, they are not earning our money. If they gave us the option to enable or disable the pixelated thing that would be different and entirely acceptable. But that option does not exist. It's not like it would be difficult, they just didn't have the foresight to do it.

I like the DQ games, play them sometime on a snes EMU, this does look pretty at least.

lexluthermiesterThe problem is the mix of remastered HD GFX of the game world deliberately intertwined with pixelated player character/NPC GFX. It's visually irritating and looks like crap.

You bet, it is very much is subjective. But I am far from alone and I voice my opinion to send a message and do it on behalf of everyone else out there who feel similarly. And let's face facts, these companies are trying to motivate us to give them our money. They have to earn it. By presenting a product, or set of products, that do not meet reasonable standards, they are not earning our money. If they gave us the option to enable or disable the pixelated thing that would be different and entirely acceptable. But that option does not exist. It's not like it would be difficult, they just didn't have the foresight to do it.

To me it reminds me a bit of how a neoclassic painter like Ingres hated any painting styles that weren't conforming to the classical and traditional idea of painting. Delacroix was too fancy for his taste, and he never hid is disdain for everything that he did :D.

As someone who likes and even studied art for a bit, I find HD 2D very interesting. It's not the first time artists have chosen to mix different aesthetics in a single piece. For Suidoken I could understand the half-baked argument since they reused the same sprite. But Square HD 2D is made with purpose, the sprites aren't the same as in the old times, they've been remade. And contrary to what one might think, something simple isn't always easier, or proof of laziness. good pixel art is hard to do. You don't just make something in HD and then pixelate it, pixels need to be placed with purpose to look great.

Picasso mastered detailed classical drawing and painting when he was 16. It's when he started cubism that he started to say that he began to really master his craft. But cubism also got a lot of hater, who only see the simplicity of the final result, and don't see how hard it is to break the rules in a good way :D. There's a difference between someone skilled who's breaking the rules and someone who just doesn't know what they are doing.

I also remember seeing and still seeing people who hate cel-shading. 2002 had a bunch of articles talking how divisive that style is when the wind weaker was revealed and had people say "what have they done to my Zelda". in 2024, there are still people wondering how one can find that attractive. I betcha that even if Square had put high-res sprite, you would have people puking at the idea of mixing 2D and 3D. Because even if the resolution would match, the style wouldn't. It's something that gets people in the anime community to go mental. Even if the 3D is well made, the mix of techniques just irks them. There's always someone who's going to hate anything that isn't conventional.

It's not that it's factually bad, but anything unconventional is a risk. Some will appreciate the switch up, others just want people to keep doing things the traditional way. Even the show Arcane had people put off by the whole "painterly 3D animation in 30 fps with 2D vfx at 12FPS" style.

Pfff I can't for the life of me understand why you'd 'remake' something with updated graphics that look like they were rendering in 2002.

What is this blurfest? The whole vibe is alright imho, it does still feel like ye olde games but with new paint. But they could have painted in a higher resolution...

dyonoctisTo me it reminds me a bit of how a neoclassic painter like Ingres hated any painting styles that weren't conforming to the classical and traditional idea of painting.

I don't know whether you missed my point or are deliberately sidestepping it, don't care either.

dyonoctisAs someone who likes and even studied art for a bit, I find HD 2D very interesting. It's not the first time artists have chosen to mix different aesthetics in a single piece. For Suidoken I could understand the half-baked argument since they reused the same sprite. But Square HD 2D is made with purpose, the sprites aren't the same as in the old times, they've been remade. And contrary to what one might think, something simple isn't always easier, or proof of laziness. good pixel art is hard to do.

I don't care what the reasoning is. At all. For a game that is being remade and "remastered", I expect the WHOLE game to match and have comparable levels of detail. If the game world and whatnot is going to be rendered in HD and look good, there is zero excuse for ALL parts of the game not to look the same and actually fit in the same visual style.

dyonoctisYou don't just make something in HD and then pixelate it, pixels need to be placed with purpose to look great.

Are you joking with that? Good grief.. :rolleyes:

dyonoctisThere's a difference between someone skilled who's breaking the rules and someone who just doesn't know what they are doing.

Again, I could NOT care less. All of the games assets need to match each other in visual fidelity. It doesn't matter if it's a dim-wit or an expert. The way they are looks pathetic, very much like amateur hour crap. No thank you. Stop trying to debate why they're going it, I don't care. The reasons do NOT matter.

Vayra86Pfff I can't for the life of me understand why you'd 'remake' something with updated graphics that look like they were rendering in 2002.

What is this blurfest? The whole vibe is alright imho, it does still feel like ye olde games but with new paint. But they could have painted in a higher resolution...

See, I'm not alone.

lexluthermiesterOk, sure..

So was the original Final Fantasy 7 on the PSX. Success does NOT equal quality. FF7 was even more of a graphical mess and it's unworthy of the laurels it got. And yet it sold to the masses like hot-cakes. What does that say about the masses?

Again, that says nothing about quality. It says something about the masses and that something is not a good thing.

I find that funny in the current context, because we have developers saying that the masses are wrong for not liking their games, and trying to explain why the masses are wrong to like the games that they like :p.

lexluthermiesterI don't know whether you missed my point or are deliberately sidestepping it, don't care either.

I don't care what the reasoning is. At all. For a game that is being remade and "remastered", I expect the WHOLE game to have the match and compatible levels of detail. If the game world and whatnot is going to be render in HD and look good, there is zero excuse for ALL parts of the game not to look the same and actually fit in the same visual style.

Are you joking with that? Good grief.. :rolleyes:

Again, I could NOT care less. All of the games assets need to match each other in visual fidelity. It doesn't matter if it's a dim-wit or an expert. The way they are looks pathetic, very much like amateur hour crap. No thank you. Stop trying to debate why they're going it, I don't care. The reasons do NOT matter.


See, I'm not alone.

I'm not joking, I've read about pixel art, I've had hands on experience in simplying a design, if you just apply a mosaic filter to a high res drawing, a lot of things will feel off because the initial drawing wasn't mean to be low res, a lot of the high res details will create a visual mess once you start to pixelate it. You have to be purposefull for it to look good. On that specific aspect I feel like you are being very conscending about a rendering technique that you don't know that well when it comes to it's intricacies. (not talking about the mix, but pixel art itself)

Pixel art calls for a high degree of attention. Unlike a painter who can literally use broad strokes, a pixel artist must focus on the placement of every single unit in their image. A good pixel artist is able to capture the fundamental form of a subject while still simplifying it.

Get started on pixel art by studying the pixelated characters you already admire from the work of past artists. “References from real life don’t apply as nicely in pixel art as they do in other digital art disciplines,” says pixel artist Emi Monserrate. “You have to learn ways of simplifying complex shapes such as hands or facial expressions.”

Recreating classic pixel art can be a painstaking process, but following the pixel path of another artist can be enlightening. Of course, you should never pass off something you’ve copied as your own — when working with pre-existing art, credit the creators appropriately.

Ofc you are not alone, as I said, everything that strays from the norms will be divisive. In every media. There's a lot of people who also hate the mix of 3D and 2D even if the 2D is of high quality, Just because they can see visual difference between the two techniques.

I didn't sidestepped, I just made a parralell. People disliking uncoventional rendering is old. It's been going on for centuries. Mixed media/mixed rendering got their fans but also their detractors. Wetheir it's in games, painting, drawing...some people just don't like that kind of constrast. But artists or art form that exploited them still managed to have a level of sucess. HD-2D is not an isolated thing.

You will die on your hill, I will die on mine.

dyonoctisI find that funny in the current context, because we have developers saying that the masses are wrong for not liking their games, and trying to explain why the masses are wrong to like the games that they like :p.

Interesting indeed. Devs and publishers fail to understand, as they always have, that the tastes of the gaming public are somewhat fickle, but a well crafted title(along with some promotion) sells itself. This 2DHD nonsense might have been successful with a particular audience, but not a wide audience. Them telling us that we're daft will not change our minds. It will only make us look elsewhere to spend our gaming money. And there's no shortage of places to do that.

dyonoctisI'm not joking, I've read about pixel art, I've had hands on experience in simplying a design, if you just apply a mosaic filter to a high res drawing, a lot of things will feel off because the initial drawing wasn't mean to be low res

Oh, I agree. I've done a fair amount of digital art work. I know how terrible some FX look. There are many ways to do things, just like there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything. SquareEnix and others are doing it wrong. Their offerings are not worthy of consideration, nor payment.

dyonoctisOfc you are not alone, as I said, everything that strays from the norms will be divisive.

I'm not commenting on "norms" or anything so pedantic. I am commenting on continuity and immersion. Blending of artwork styles using different observable resolutions breaks visual and continuity and disrupts the ability of many to truly be immersed in the experience of the world they're playing in.

dyonoctisThere's a lot of people who also hate the mix of 3D and 2D even if the 2D is of high quality, Just because they can see visual difference between the two techniques.

Yes. It's a distraction from the experience. It's unacceptable. When I sit down for a gaming session, I turn off all the lights and all other distractions so that I can truly delve into the game world in front of me. When something in the game itself become a glaring distraction, it ruins the experience. Anything within the games which distracts from the experience ruins same. It doesn't matter how well crafted anything else in the game is, that distraction becomes a glaring reminder of it's imperfection. At that point it's no longer "artistic expression", it's just rubbish unworthy of our time.

Now if they had made the whole game in the pixelized art style, that would be different because everything in the game experience is the same and continuity is preserved. The GFX are not mismatched and thus not a distraction from the experience.

dyonoctisI didn't sidestepped, I just made a parralell.

Maybe, but it's a parallel that is not in context with the topic being discussed and for the reasons stated above.

I'm not talking about subjective things, I'm talking about continuity and game experience immersion, entirely objective viewpoints. No one wants to be distracted while they're enjoying their jaunt into fantasyland.

dyonoctisYou will die on your hill, I will die on mine.

Mountain, not hill. And I will be at the top of mine.

lexluthermiesterInteresting indeed. Devs and publishers fail to understand, as they always have, that the tastes of the gaming public are somewhat fickle, but a well crafted title(along with some promotion) sells itself. This 2DHD nonsense might have been successful with a particular audience, but not a wide audience. Them telling us that we're daft will not change our minds. It will only make us look elsewhere to spend our gaming money. And there's no shortage of places to do that.

Oh, I agree. I've done a fair amount of digital art work. I know how terrible some FX look. There are many ways to do things, just like there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything. SquareEnix and others are doing it wrong. Their offerings are not worthy of consideration, nor payment.

I'm not commenting on "norms" or anything so pedantic. I am commenting on continuity and immersion. Blending of artwork styles using different observable resolutions breaks visual and continuity and disrupts the ability of many to truly be immersed in the experience of the world they're playing in.

Yes. It's a distraction from the experience. It's unacceptable. When I sit down for a gaming session, I turn off all the lights and all other distractions so that I can truly delve into the game world in front of me. When something in the game itself become a glaring distraction, it ruins the experience. Anything within the games which distracts from the experience ruins same. It doesn't matter how well crafted anything else in the game is, that distraction becomes a glaring reminder of it's imperfection. At that point it's no longer "artistic expression", it's just rubbish unworthy of our time.

Now if they had made the whole game in the pixelized art style, that would be different because everything in the game experience is the same and continuity is preserved. The GFX are not mismatched and thus not a distraction from the experience.

Maybe, but it's a parallel that is not in context with the topic being discussed and for the reasons stated above.

I'm not talking about subjective things, I'm talking about continuity and game experience immersion, entirely objective viewpoints. No one wants to be distracted while they're enjoying their jaunt into fantasyland.


Mountain, not hill. And I will be at the top of mine.

kinell man, just leave it honestly, it's subjective, yes we get your opinion, others are of that that it's a decent upgrade from the original whilst maintaining that old school style, and let's be clear, we're not talking AA/AAA games here, these are remasters based on yesteryears favourites, the artistic style is in keeping with that original gameplay and simplistic 2d gameplay, they aren't charging $70 for these "remasters" usually just $15-$20, you need to step away if it's not to your liking and just go and do something else positive, we get it, you don't like the updated HD with 2D, you can only beat the same drum so many times man, it's not even that deep, how bloody immersed are you going to get sitting in the dark playing a 90's 2d platformer that has been updated with HD graphics :rolleyes:

Marcus Lthey aren't charging $70 for these "remasters" usually just $15-$20

The price is irrelevant.

Marcus Lyou need to step away if it's not to your liking and just go and do something else positive, we get it, you don't like the updated HD with 2D, you can only beat the same drum so many times man

I'll do as I damn well please. I'm speaking up in hopes that the devs will see that not everyone likes their "artistic expression" and will offer an alterate mode for those of us who would very much love play these games but find that aspect of them intolerable.

I'm effectively asking them to update these games with alternate character GFX, a trivial task indeed, so we would be motivated to buy & they can sell to us and, get ready for it....make more money for themselves. Tada.. See how that works?

Only warning!
Stick to the topic.
Stop your back-and-forth bickering.
Report problems and don't be the problem.

Marcus Lkinell man, just leave it honestly, it's subjective, yes we get your opinion, others are of that that it's a decent upgrade from the original whilst maintaining that old school style, and let's be clear, we're not talking AA/AAA games here, these are remasters based on yesteryears favourites, the artistic style is in keeping with that original gameplay and simplistic 2d gameplay, they aren't charging $70 for these "remasters" usually just $15-$20, you need to step away if it's not to your liking and just go and do something else positive, we get it, you don't like the updated HD with 2D, you can only beat the same drum so many times man, it's not even that deep, how bloody immersed are you going to get sitting in the dark playing a 90's 2d platformer that has been updated with HD graphics :rolleyes:

From everything that I read, he's not going to get his wishes anyway. Square is teaching that art style to more people in their studios, those games are among the most profitable things that they've done in the past few years and have a spectacular success in their domestic market. And Square also started to downsize and got rid of many Western studios.

Someone pretty high up at Square told to people working on Nier to ignore feedback from the West about the game, and after years of being burned for trying to cater to the West and failing the Japanese game industry did better overall when they focused on what the Japanese thought about their games. If Japan like HD-2D, that's what the rest of the world will get.
Nier Automata's Dev Was "Ordered" To Ignore What The West Thinks Of His Game | Nintendo Life

To be more precise, I remember him saying something like, 'You can't make a game for overseas, so (at least) do your best to make it for Japan'.

“What I said at the time went more like this:

"Since we’re Japanese people, there’s no need for us to go out of our way to cater to people overseas. Surely, we’ll be able to attract at least a million players among all the people out there who genuinely want to play a Japanese game made by a Japanese person (the one and only Yoko Taro).”

dyonoctisFrom everything that I read, he's not going to get his wishes anyway. Square is teaching that art style to more people in their studios, those games are among the most profitable things that they've done in the past few years and have a spectacular success in their domestic market. And Square also started to downsize and got rid of many Western studios.

Yeah, kinda sad.

dyonoctisSomeone pretty high up at Square told to people working on Nier to ignore feedback from the West about the game, and after years of being burned for trying to cater to the West and failing the Japanese game industry did better overall when they focused on what the Japanese thought about their games. If Japan like HD-2D, that's what the rest of the world will get.
Nier Automata's Dev Was "Ordered" To Ignore What The West Thinks Of His Game | Nintendo Life

That's ignorance, by definition.

Welcome to the modern Square/Enix..

lexluthermiesterYeah, kinda sad.

That's ignorance, by definition.

Welcome to the modern Square/Enix..

It's easy to forget that Japan is still a "peculiar" country even in this day and age. Their top-selling games are very different, with a large number of Japanese games, some of them not even available in the West. Some aspects of their culture just happened to do well worldwide, but they've always had a specific way of doing things, with some of them just too weird for the West.

I've been taught in uni that Japan is part of those countries where global design UI/UX rules are not always ideal. The way that they look at data is different enough for Global companies to use a different UI/UX on their domestic website. A literature teacher also warned us that Japanese literature is an acquired taste.

Square was just successful for a bit at publishing good Western games made by Westerners, but their attempt at doing Western-like games was a spectacular failure. The only slight exception was when Naoki Yoshida asked the people working on FFXIV to play Wow to get an idea of what a fun and modern MMO should be, but it's more that they took what they liked about the game and spun it with their own sauce, rather than trying to do a western MMO.

Otherwise, you end up with things like Forsaken, which cost a lot, and kinda emulates a Western vibe, but forgot the part about being a good game. (That's the biggest issue of the AAA industry, very expensive dev cost, which requires an insane number of sales to be profitable. Asian games tend to have a much lower cost, either by being technically limited or just having lower wages for the employees in the case of Wukong)

They are getting lost in the sauce by trying too hard at that. Someone at Nintendo also shares a similar sentiment :
"Keep Pursuing Things Japanese People Like" - Masahiro Sakurai On Creating Successful Games