Thursday, June 25th 2009

Consider a GPU Upgrade Before CPU: NVIDIA

Jun 25th, 2009 11:32 Discuss (84 Comments)

Ahead of the bulk of the crucial summer shopping season, NVIDIA sent a circular urging consumers to focus their PC upgrades on GPUs, rather than CPU and its platform. It thinks that if you have a reasonably good platform from last year or the year before, a GPU upgrade serves as a better price for performance increment when it comes to games. A slide explaining NVIDIA's advice was leaked (perhaps ahead of its formal publication, as it seems to be targeted at end-users and not intermediate customers or distributors).

Quite simply, the slide shows how upgrading the GPU is a more cost-effective way of increasing performance of a gaming PC, compared to upgrading the platform (CPU, compatible motherboard and memory). The side specifically targets the Intel Core i7 platform, and pits the upgrade path against upgrading the graphics components, keeping the rest of the PC constant, based on the common Core 2 Duo E8400. The price of this base system along with a GeForce GTS 250 GPU is measured at $506. A $159 upgrade to GeForce GTS 250 SLI sends the average FPS (application not mentioned) up to 54 from 42, likewise as you look further up the options NVIDIA provides. Upgrading the rest of the platform is making no performance impact on this application. The general idea conveyed is that for a gaming PC with recent generation hardware, better graphics is a better incremental upgrade. Choose with your wallet.

Source: DonanimHaber

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84 Comments on Consider a GPU Upgrade Before CPU: NVIDIA

#51

Ketxxx

Heedless Psychic

Yep. I'd say if you own a GTS250 though your system isn't THAT powerful, and you may well need to buy a better PSU.

#52

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder

hatLol, they started the graph at 40 to make the gains from buying a new gpu look astrinomical

That is pretty standard graphing practice.

KetxxxYep. I'd say if you own a GTS250 though your system isn't THAT powerful, and you may well need to buy a better PSU.

I would say if you have an E8400 your system isn't that powerful. However, I don't think you would need a better PSU if you already have a GTS250. At least not going from the GTS250 to the GTX260, since the GTS250 consumes more power both on average and at peak than the 55nm GTX260. Moving to the SLi setup, I would definitely agree that a new PSU might be order though.

#53

Ketxxx

Heedless Psychic

Ditto. When you consider 99% of people think the minimum playable FPS to be 30-35, nVidia actually screwed themselves a bit there hat.

#54

Swansen

maybe i missed something, but did Nvidia finally get SLI to scale better than 30 to 40% ?????

#55

erocker

Swansenmaybe i missed something, but did Nvidia finally get SLI to scale better than 30 to 40% ?????

Pretty much since G92 was released. 9600GT's scale almost to 100% with many apps.

#56

leonard_222003

This is a mixed decision , kiddies that benchmark games to death will always want more graphic power for 1 more fps , but they don't have the money , older people who play games ocasionally will welcome more CPU power than GPU power if the game runs normaly.
Who needs SLI ? probably a GTX285/HD4890 is enough for most normal resolutions (1680x1050 and even 1920x1080 in most games with full details )
The argument to get another GTS250 to better your framerates is misleading , SLI like crossfire comes with a lot of problems , games is launched today , everybody playes the game happily and to the end ( people with single GTX260,4870,GTX280....etc.) with acceptable framerates , the guy with a sli of GTS250's have to wait for a beta or a patch until it gets the second card working.
The conclusion , it's better to have a single powerfull GPU than a SLI of weaker GPU's , it's always been like that.
Some games are CPU limited on a GTS250/4850 and upper , SLI argument fails in strategy games ( played anno 1404 recently and man it's cpu limited hard ) , and strategy games aren't the only ones , source games are cpu limited in big online games ( team fortress 2 , CS source ) , GTA4 is CPU limited in most scenarios , and the list can go on , so a GPU upgrade can't always be the answer.

#57

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

i still beleive everyone who says any modern GPU is enough to max out any game is a liar, or hiding in their own world.

Supreme commander and company of heroes are two old games - they're still played due to expansion packs, but NEITHER of them can be played reliably at 1080P, with max settings (8xAA, via in game options) - you tend to average 30FPS, dipping down in the laggy sections of "too slow" everytime something big blows up.

I know this because i've got two of em and a friend (crusader) has one, and we like to compare - he only runs at 1680x1050, and he has to disable shadows and AA to keep his minimum FPS above 40.

So in order to max even games a year or two old out WITHOUT ever dropping below 30FPS, you need two GPU's, and a powerful CPU to feed them... its more than many people want to beleive. Just because an old card runs the game fine on medium, dont mean squat if high takes 4x as much power.

#58

cdawall

where the hell are my stars

newtekie1That is pretty standard graphing practice.

I would say if you have an E8400 your system isn't that powerful. However, I don't think you would need a better PSU if you already have a GTS250. At least not going from the GTS250 to the GTX260, since the GTS250 consumes more power both on average and at peak than the 55nm GTX260. Moving to the SLi setup, I would definitely agree that a new PSU might be order though.

even most OEM's are including a PSU that is powerful enough to bump to a higher end gpu or two included GPU's lets take a standard OEM like gateway the FX6800 series shipped with a FSP 500w 80% eff. PSU a core i7 920 and a 4850 no reason why you can't toss a second 4850 in that same box close it back up and use it. that PSU is more than capable of power a pair of 4850's so for $125 you can get 10-50% boosts in performance depending on the program.

now lets check the PSU consumption graphs here. notice the 920 is build off a 130W TDP so under 100% load it should be pulling 130w, intel lists X58 to be a 24W TDP and total consumption is 264w that means under load the GPU is pulling ~140w a second GPU would add another ~140w putting total consumption@404w which is @80% efficiency on a 500w PSU

notice this uses a GTX260 for the i7 parts i researched some more and the GTX260 under load pulls more juice than a 4850 making these numbers usable for my situation.

source 1

source 2

with what nvidia is saying lets not bump to the C965 lets grab that second GPU instead its $125 not $1000.

#59

Initialised

LifeOnMarsOk so somebody with an X2 thinks OK Nvidia I want the best graphics so obviously I should buy a shiny GTX 295 only to find its hideously crippled by a lack of CPU power. There needs to be more information for people that are new to PC gaming, how important it is to know the level of CPU scaling that can occur.

i7 is the best performance boost you can give an SLi or Crossfire graphics system. SLi and Crossfire don't scale well on low end quads (Phenom) or dual core CPUs but give them an Q6, Q9 or Phenom2 or the right side of 3.0GHz and all of a sudden it does scale, give them an i7 and even triple and quad GPU systems scale well.

#60

cdawall

where the hell are my stars

Initialisedi7 is the best performance boost you can give an SLi or Crossfire graphics system. SLi and Crossfire don't scale well on low end quads (Phenom) or dual core CPUs but give them an Q6, Q9 or Phenom2 or the right side of 3.0GHz and all of a sudden it does scale, give them an i7 and even triple and quad GPU systems scale well.

actually it scales better on phenom II than i7 a 955 will outperform a i7 920 in multi GPU configs with stock clocks and will keep up with the i7 950 which is way out of its price point

#61

leonard_222003

Bottom line the system has to be properly built , you don't put a 9600GT on a core i7 and hope to play crysis at full details , something like that , or , you don't SLI two GTX280 on a E8400 , better put them on a core i7.
Like any slideshow that come from a company it's misleading for uniformed people , i wonder who believes those slideshows in those presetations ?
While it's true what they say , it's not advisable in the real world , a stock E8400 won't satisfy two GTS250's.
And one more thing , this is not only to promote mighty Nvidia , this slideshow is meant to attack Intel.
Some angry little men must work at Nvidia , the pride they have is unbelievable , they jump out for a scandal at the slighest shit some competition throws at them , but when you look at the problems they have with some products over the year and the silence they showed is , golden in that case , for them.
In the lack of a better product Nvidia has to do for some , when the time comes to have an alternative i and probably most will switch from this angry at the world company.

#62

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman

My Current Machine would need to have the CPU at like 2.4/2.5Ghz to drive the current video card, i was thinking of upgrading my current one keeping everything other than the Mobo and CPU, that is after the new machine is built.

Musselsi still beleive everyone who says any modern GPU is enough to max out any game is a liar, or hiding in their own world.

Supreme commander and company of heroes are two old games - they're still played due to expansion packs, but NEITHER of them can be played reliably at 1080P, with max settings (8xAA, via in game options) - you tend to average 30FPS, dipping down in the laggy sections of "too slow" everytime something big blows up.

I know this because i've got two of em and a friend (crusader) has one, and we like to compare - he only runs at 1680x1050, and he has to disable shadows and AA to keep his minimum FPS above 40.

So in order to max even games a year or two old out WITHOUT ever dropping below 30FPS, you need two GPU's, and a powerful CPU to feed them... its more than many people want to beleive. Just because an old card runs the game fine on medium, dont mean squat if high takes 4x as much power.

#63

imperialreign

Musselsi still beleive everyone who says any modern GPU is enough to max out any game is a liar, or hiding in their own world.

Supreme commander and company of heroes are two old games - they're still played due to expansion packs, but NEITHER of them can be played reliably at 1080P, with max settings (8xAA, via in game options) - you tend to average 30FPS, dipping down in the laggy sections of "too slow" everytime something big blows up.

I know this because i've got two of em and a friend (crusader) has one, and we like to compare - he only runs at 1680x1050, and he has to disable shadows and AA to keep his minimum FPS above 40.

So in order to max even games a year or two old out WITHOUT ever dropping below 30FPS, you need two GPU's, and a powerful CPU to feed them... its more than many people want to beleive. Just because an old card runs the game fine on medium, dont mean squat if high takes 4x as much power.

I absolutely agree - even with 3 GPUs and an OCed Q9650, I still can't max out some games at native 1920x1200 . . .

Both the CPU and the GPU need to be looked at together. True, I see where nVidia is coming from with their presentation . . . but, although a new more powerful GPU will defi yield some gains in-game - it can still be held back quite a bit by the CPU.

Sure, there's nothing wrong with the Exxx series procs, especially in terms of gaming - but if you're trying to run 1680 or 1920 res . . .

#64

Unregistered

A quick question about cpu bottle necking. As I am a victim of this recession, I am working on a tri fire 3870 setup. My cpu is a X2 6000,4G Ram. I have run riva tuner while running 3D06/Vantage and the CPU usage balances out to about 50%/thread and the GPU max at 100%. Reversed on CPU test sections. Is another card going to be to much or are the numbers from Riva based on the testing not relevant?

#65

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

LaidLawJonesA quick question about cpu bottle necking. As I am a victim of this recession, I am working on a tri fire 3870 setup. My cpu is a X2 6000,4G Ram. I have run riva tuner while running 3D06/Vantage and the CPU usage balances out to about 50%/thread and the GPU max at 100%. Reversed on CPU test sections. Is another card going to be to much or are the numbers from Riva based on the testing not relevant?

50% CPU is one core being maxxed right out. just means whatever you're testing with is only single threaded.

#66

Melvis

ShadowFoldThe jump from Core 2 Quad to i7 gives such small performance increases in games, I agree with nvidia here. Altho, not necessarily on the whole SLI thing, but I still think that buying a new video card for gaming is a much better idea if you have a Core 2 or Phenom platform.

Totally agree with you there :toast:

#67

Ketxxx

Heedless Psychic

newtekie1That is pretty standard graphing practice.

I would say if you have an E8400 your system isn't that powerful. However, I don't think you would need a better PSU if you already have a GTS250. At least not going from the GTS250 to the GTX260, since the GTS250 consumes more power both on average and at peak than the 55nm GTX260. Moving to the SLi setup, I would definitely agree that a new PSU might be order though.

I was talking if somebody was thinking of putting another GTS250 in SLi and overclocking them both. Typically most people who have a GTS250 probably don't have a PSU more powerful than 400-450w. Depending on the quality of the PSU, which in this case we will assume shoestring budget because of the GTS250, the PSU may not be of good enough quality.

#68

leonard_222003

imperialreignI absolutely agree - even with 3 GPUs and an OCed Q9650, I still can't max out some games at native 1920x1200 . . .

What kind of max out ? 16Xaa ? this is ridiculous.
Sometimes you can have 3 cards in SLI/Crossfire and still have a bad framerate , problems are THE DRIVERS AND GAME OPTIMIZATIONS !!!
I believe we took Nvidia's slideshow to seriously already , they said something obvious and limited in information about what games could benefit from this and what games won't.

#69

Unregistered

50% CPU is one core being maxxed right out. just means whatever you're testing with is only single threaded.

50% was the average between both threads.

:confused: So you are saying that each core is only capable of 50% load multiply by two cores for 100%?

#70

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

LaidLawJones50% was the average between both threads.

:confused: So you are saying that each core is only capable of 50% load multiply by two cores for 100%?

yes. on a quad core its 25%.

#71

Ketxxx

Heedless Psychic

Or, to make things a bit clearer. Lets take a Quad core CPU, one of its cores can be @ 25% while the other cores are @ 0%. However that percentage is just divided relevent to the cores, so that 25% load on one core, is in fact what you would percive as 100% on a single core.

#72

Unregistered

AHA! Got it. Took a couple cups of coffee to fire up the neurotransmitters. Or at least I hope I understand. 2X50=1@100

If I follow, 2X3870=100% of one core, so 3X3870= 100%of 1 core and 50% of second core?

The question still remains will a third or possibly 4th 3870 bottle neck the cpu?

The numbers suggest that 3X3870 will leave some room, but many things that look good on paper do not play out in real world situations.

Thanx for the schooling :)

#73

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

LaidLawJonesAHA! Got it. Took a couple cups of coffee to fire up the neurotransmitters. Or at least I hope I understand. 2X50=1@100

If I follow, 2X3870=100% of one core, so 3X3870= 100%of 1 core and 50% of second core?

The question still remains will a third or possibly 4th 3870 bottle neck the cpu?

The numbers suggest that 3X3870 will leave some room, but many things that look good on paper do not play out in real world situations.

Thanx for the schooling :)

not exactly. You're assuming that the VIDEO card is whats using the CPU - its the games. the video card uses CPU power sure, but its not all of it.

If you have a game that maxes out at 50% on a dual core, that means the game is only single threaded, it means that no matter how many cores on your CPU you have it will NEVER get faster, without a faster CPU (and we dont mean a 2GHz quad core vs a 2Ghz dual core, we mean it only uses the first core, so more MHz is what matters)

#74

Unregistered

:D I'll get the knowledge in there somehow :banghead:

I can horse trade for the extra 3870 but will have to buy a 9950 Black Edition. I am hoping that it will OC far better than my 6000 giving me the extra MHz I need.

I thought futuremark 3D06 was multi-thread.

#75

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

LaidLawJones:D I'll get the knowledge in there somehow :banghead:

I can horse trade for the extra 3870 but will have to buy a 9950 Black Edition. I am hoping that it will OC far better than my 6000 giving me the extra MHz I need.

I thought futuremark 3D06 was multi-thread.

06 is... that program might as well be a CPU benchmark. your score goes up a stupidly large amount for having a quad core, when your FPS doesnt change at all.

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Consider a GPU Upgrade Before CPU: NVIDIA

84 Comments on Consider a GPU Upgrade Before CPU: NVIDIA

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