# General Cryptocoin Discussion



## lexluthermiester (Jun 11, 2021)

As many threads seem to get side-tracked with general discussion about cryptocoin, we need a thread where discussion about the subject that can meander from any one aspect as the users need it too.

This is a general discussion about cryptocoin and all topics about this subject are welcome. Remember folks, forum rules still apply, so lets be friendly even if we disagree, because we ALL know there will be disagreements.

To continue;


trog100 said:


> i am looking a bit shorter term than you lex..


And that might be the main reason why you conflict with many of us other users. We are taking a look at the big picture here, not just the short-term. May I suggest that you start looking at both scales to get a wider view of the cryptocoin market? Only an observation and suggestion, not meant to be an attack..


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## trog100 (Jun 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> As many threads seem to get side-tracked with general discussion about cryptocoin, we need a thread where discussion about the subject that can meander from any one aspect as the users need it too.
> 
> Remember folks, forum rules still apply, so lets be friendly even if we disagree, because we ALL know there will be disagreements.
> 
> ...



lex.. i look at all time scales and many youtuber comments.. .. i am retired with time on my hands so i can.. i form my own opinions based on my own research..

look back at my comments and opinions thru this thread.. i aint been far wrong..

you maybe not attacking but you are being somewhat condescending.. as crypto experts go i recon i am one.. and dont mind sticking my neck out and saying so... he he

i basically believe that long term bitcoin will reach some pretty high figures.. it will have some battles to fight along the way..


trog


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 11, 2021)

trog100 said:


> lex.. i look at all time scales


You did say that you are looking at the short term... So which is it?


trog100 said:


> you maybe not attacking but you are being somewhat condescending..


You know me well enough to know if I were being condescending you would have no doubts of it. So let's let that go..

Ok, so I'm looking at this;








						Bitcoin Price Today - BTC to USD Live - Crypto | Coinranking
					

View the Bitcoin (BTC) price live in US dollar (USD). Today's value and price history. Discover info about market cap, trading volume and supply.




					coinranking.com
				



Looking at the 30day, 3 month, 1 year and 5 year numbers and seeing that the trend is still nose down. It might be leveling off, as you suggest, or it might be a slight pause before another dip, which has happened before, recently.

Then we look at this;








						Ethereum Price Today - ETH to USD Live - Crypto | Coinranking
					

View the Ethereum (ETH) price live in US dollar (USD). Today's value and price history. Discover info about market cap, trading volume and supply.




					coinranking.com
				



And the decline trend stands out a bit more.


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## AusWolf (Jun 11, 2021)

I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:

Why is cryptocurrency good?
Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable). What are cryptocurrencies backed by?
How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?
Still, the biggest question is: WHY IS IT LEGAL?


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 11, 2021)

This is a comment that fits better in this thread.



Jism said:


> CPB-directeur: Nederland moet bitcoin en andere cryptovaluta verbieden
> 
> 
> De ultieme stap is volgens Pieter Hasekamp een totaalverbod op productie, handel en bezit van cryptomunten.
> ...


Might just happen too. Cryptocoin has been a disruption and can potentially be a further serious threat to standard currency systems.



AusWolf said:


> Why is cryptocurrency good?


Excellent question!


AusWolf said:


> Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?


Also good question.


AusWolf said:


> Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable).


Not in North America it's not. The USA, Canada and Mexico got off the Gold standard many decades ago.


AusWolf said:


> What are cryptocurrencies backed by?


Nothing, because they are literally nothing.


AusWolf said:


> How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, *and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?*


Now THAT is an amusing postulation!


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## Papahyooie (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:
> 
> Why is cryptocurrency good?
> Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
> ...


1. Freedom. 
2. Because they make money on it too.
3.No, it's not. That's a myth. There is not a single country that has a gold-backed currency today. Crypto is backed (albeit poorly sometimes) by confidence and sentiment, same as the US dollar or any other modern currency. The US dollar at least also is backed by violence and threat of violence. So I guess that counts for something...
4. Here's a primer in the subject. https://www.investopedia.com/tech/how-does-bitcoin-mining-work/
5. Because, it turns out, most people want to be able to do what they want without interference, as long as it doesn't hurt others. Of course one could argue that the energy consumption is damaging, but in that case, make it illegal to mine on power derived from fossil fuels or something. If I power my farm with solar for instance, it harms nobody. So it doesn't make any sense to ban it outright. 

At the end of the day, I will never understand people that want to make something illegal without understanding it, or just because they don't like it. 

Also, as a side note, making it illegal will not make it go away. Just ask drugs and guns.


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## Outback Bronze (Jun 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> cryptocoin



What's that?

Isn't it called Crypto Currency? Its Legal Tender now.


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## AusWolf (Jun 11, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> 1. Freedom.
> 2. Because they make money on it too.
> 3.No, it's not. That's a myth. There is not a single country that has a gold-backed currency today. Crypto is backed (albeit poorly sometimes) by confidence and sentiment, same as the US dollar or any other modern currency. The US dollar at least also is backed by violence and threat of violence. So I guess that counts for something...
> 4. Here's a primer in the subject. https://www.investopedia.com/tech/how-does-bitcoin-mining-work/
> ...


1. Freedom of what?
2. I could have thought so.
3. Fair enough. Still, national currencies are accepted as a method of payment. Crypto is not, so where is any guarantee of value?
4. I'll read it when I have a bit of time, thanks. 
5. But it hurts others. It's not just the energy usage. Crypto mining contributes to the chip shortage that isn't only experienced by gamers, but for example by car manufacturers too. Also, what will happen with the millions of graphics cards when the crypto boom has ended? Or what will happen when the next generation of graphics cards comes out? Will they be bought up by crypto miners again? My problem is that crypto farmers act like they rule the whole (GPU) world, when in fact, they're just a bunch of graphics card thieves, nobodies who want to get rich by doing nothing, not contributing to society in any way. That's why it should be illegal in my opinion.


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## 64K (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:
> 
> Why is cryptocurrency good?
> Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
> ...



What we call currency is Fiat. It isn't backed by anything of value. Especially not something of real and lasting value such as gold. People believe that Fiat is valuable so it is valuable. Crypto is just another Fiat. As long as some people believe it has value then it has value.


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## trog100 (Jun 11, 2021)

just a bitcoin general comment.. the important thing is.. was 64K the current cycle peak or was it just a normal mid cycle crypto correction..

if it was the cycle peak it means downwards from here on in until the next cycle..

i think a normal cycle correction helped along by the whales trying to drive out the greedy over leveraged traders and the weaker players..

i think bitcoin has much higher to go during this cycle.. but i could be wrong its too early to say ether way for sure..

trog


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## Papahyooie (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> 1. Freedom of what?
> 2. I could have thought so.
> 3. Fair enough. Still, national currencies are accepted as a method of payment. Crypto is not, so where is any guarantee of value?
> 4. I'll read it when I have a bit of time, thanks.
> 5. But it hurts others. It's not just the energy usage. Crypto mining contributes to the chip shortage that isn't only experienced by gamers, but for example by car manufacturers too. Also, what will happen with the millions of graphics cards when the crypto boom has ended? Or what will happen when the next generation of graphics cards comes out? Will they be bought up by crypto miners again? My problem is that crypto farmers act like they rule the whole (GPU) world, when in fact, they're just a bunch of graphics card thieves, nobodies who want to get rich by doing nothing, not contributing to society in any way. That's why it should be illegal in my opinion.


1. Freedom. In general. Crypto is good for freedom.
2. Indeed.
3. "Guarantee of value" is the same as "backing." Both crypto and national currencies are backed by confidence in something. In the USD, it's faith that the US will continue to exist, and be an effective and potent government. In crypto, it's faith that it will be able to be sold for a higher price at the moment. This is the same as any stock trading one might do. Eventually, the hope is that you will be able to use crypto the same as any other currency. That's not reality yet, but the list of vendors who accept it for payment is growing. You can buy graphics cards with crypto right now on Newegg, and you'll even get a discount for it!
4. Good, I'm glad! 
5. I realize you're mad about not being able to get a graphics card. But that is not you being "harmed" by crypto. To be harmed, you would have to have a right to those cards in the first place, and you don't. The manufacturer owns them, and they can sell them to whomever they please, at whatever price they please. I could just as easily say that you buying graphics cards for gaming harms me as a miner. Both statements are disingenuous, because neither of us have a right to graphics cards we haven't bought yet.


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## AusWolf (Jun 11, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> 1. Freedom. In general. Crypto is good for freedom.
> 2. Indeed.
> 3. "Guarantee of value" is the same as "backing." Both crypto and national currencies are backed by confidence in something. In the USD, it's faith that the US will continue to exist, and be an effective and potent government. In crypto, it's faith that it will be able to be sold for a higher price at the moment. This is the same as any stock trading one might do. Eventually, the hope is that you will be able to use crypto the same as any other currency. That's not reality yet, but the list of vendors who accept it for payment is growing. You can buy graphics cards with crypto right now on Newegg, and you'll even get a discount for it!
> 4. Good, I'm glad!
> 5. I realize you're mad about not being able to get a graphics card. But that is not you being "harmed" by crypto. To be harmed, you would have to have a right to those cards in the first place, and you don't. The manufacturer owns them, and they can sell them to whomever they please, at whatever price they please. I could just as easily say that you buying graphics cards for gaming harms me as a miner. Both statements are disingenuous, because neither of us have a right to graphics cards we haven't bought yet.


1. There's no such thing as freedom in general. Only freedom to do something.
3. In my point of view, national currency is backed by the thought that I will be able to buy a loaf of bread with it at the corner shop either today, or tomorrow, or later. Its value might change, but the possibility is always there. I also trust that there is a finite amount of British Pounds on the planet, and if I work hard to get some, it will have some value because it's finite. Where is the limit of the amount of crypto "coin" that exists? How do I know that my coin is actually worth something other than the momentary exchange value?
5. That is true up to an extent. A gamer needs one graphics card. A miner needs hundreds. Graphics cards have traditionally been tools of entertainment, hobbies, but now people are buying up all of them to make money that has never existed. When the boom is over, or the next generation of graphics cards comes out, these ones will be e-waste. This hurts the economy on so many levels.


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## birdie (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:
> 
> Why is cryptocurrency good?
> Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
> ...



It's not owned and controlled by dirty politicians.
Because you're stupid because in order to ban it you have to stop the Internet from working.
Money was last backed by money *over half a century* ago. Nowadays, it's backed by promises.
This is such an asinine statement I have nothing to add. BTW *read this*: _The majority of cryptocurrency is *not* used for criminal activity. According to an excerpt from Chainalysis’ 2021 report, in 2019, *criminal activity* represented *2.1% of all cryptocurrency transaction volume (roughly $21.4 billion worth of transfers)*. According to the UN, it is estimated that between *2% and 5% of global GDP ($1.6 to $4 trillion)* annually is connected with money laundering and illicit activity._
Why governments are legal? People have made them so. Why crypto is legal? Again people have entrusted it.


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## AusWolf (Jun 11, 2021)

birdie said:


> It's not owned and controlled by dirty politicians.


Instead, it is owned by dirty mining farmers and businessmen who can get rich just as easily as politicians could at the dawn of politics.



birdie said:


> Because you're stupid because in order to ban it you have to stop the Internet from working.


Then how can China ban Youtube, Steam, Facebook and other online services? National firewall? Easy.



birdie said:


> Money was last backed by money *over half a century* ago. Nowadays, it's backed by promises.


At least "real" money has that (promises). Crypto does not.



birdie said:


> Why governments are legal? People have made them so. Why crypto is legal? Again people have entrusted it.


At least governments rely on people doing their jobs and paying taxes, so there is some vague mutuality in that relationship (even if its trustworthiness is arguable). But that brings me to another question: what makes people trust crypto?


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## birdie (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Instead, it is owned by dirty mining farmers and businessmen who can get rich just as easily as politicians could at the dawn of politics.
> 
> 
> Then how can China ban Youtube, Steam, Facebook and other online services? National firewall? Easy.
> ...



God, can you stop embarrassing yourself?

Large miners do *not* control the flow of money in crypto. They merely mint it.
Has China been able to ban the *circulation* of any of the cryptos? The f* you're giving me examples of some utter crap?
So, no argument at all. OK.
You kinda proved my own point, thanks.

People trust crypto because it works. As soon as you find an exploit for any of the chains and start e.g. minting crypto without actually computing it or find a way to double spend, trust will be (temporary) broken until developers find a way to fix it. So far such accidents have been exceedingly rare.

*You cannot game math*. You can do whatever you want with politicians and law given you have enough money or/and sway.

I do *not* say I condone crypto but I do *not* contempt it.


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## Papahyooie (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> 1. There's no such thing as freedom in general. Only freedom to do something.
> 3. In my point of view, national currency is backed by the thought that I will be able to buy a loaf of bread with it at the corner shop either today, or tomorrow, or later. Its value might change, but the possibility is always there. I also trust that there is a finite amount of British Pounds on the planet, and if I work hard to get some, it will have some value because it's finite. Where is the limit of the amount of crypto "coin" that exists? How do I know that my coin is actually worth something other than the momentary exchange value?
> 5. That is true up to an extent. A gamer needs one graphics card. A miner needs hundreds. Graphics cards have traditionally been tools of entertainment, hobbies, but now people are buying up all of them to make money that has never existed. When the boom is over, or the next generation of graphics cards comes out, these ones will be e-waste. This hurts the economy on so many levels.


1. Freedom, in general. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you. The fact that you have indicated that you think your government has some sort of mutual agreement with you, tells me that I won't be able to convince you anyway.

3. There are not a finite amount of BP or USD in the world. Your government can, has, and will print/mint more. It is not connected to gold, or anything else, and it hasn't been since the 70s. Conversely, some cryptos ARE finite. Bitcoin is a good example. There can only be a specific amount of Bitcoins because a bitcoin every "bitcoin" is assigned a mathematical number. The algorithm used to create them dictates that only so many are possible. Imagine, if you will, that I have a program that can count to 100. It can't count any higher, because that's all it's programmed to do. Then I assign a "PapahyooieCoin" to each number that it counts. There will only ever be 100 PapahyooieCoins. Bitcoin is the same way. This is VASTLY oversimplifying things, but it's just to illustrate. If you value scarcity and finite-ness, crypto is where you want to be, not GBP or USD. Neither of those are limited. Your government can print/mint more at any time, and do all the time.

5. It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is, you don't have a right to tell me how many graphics cards I can buy, or what I can do with them. E-waste is a problem, sure. But I could make the argument that you playing your silly games (I'm being facetious here, not serious) is far less important than maintaining a global payment network that allows people in despotic countries to do commerce on a global scale, thereby increasing their possibility of collecting more value, increasing their quality of life despite their government's hindrance, and eventually gaining a more free society. In that light, YOU are the one creating e-waste by doing something so frivolous as playing games with hardware that could be put to better, more noble use.

But I won't say that, because you're free to do as you wish with your own hardware that you bought with your own labor. See how that works?


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## trog100 (Jun 11, 2021)

just a  fiat comment.. fiat is not finite.. governments can print as much of it as they want and they are doing..

and as regards taxation.. its not needed to pay for things they simply create more money to do that.. taxation is used to re-distribute wealth.. to punish some and reward others all at government whim.. 

trog


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## R-T-B (Jun 11, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Then how can China ban Youtube, Steam, Facebook and other online services? National firewall? Easy.


Not very well in practice, and those are centralized services, bitcoin is decentralized.  Big difference.



lexluthermiester said:


> Nothing, because they are literally nothing.


This is actually incorrect.  Exchanges wouldn't function if this was true.

They are backed by their own public image and likewise mass interest/involvement of people.  Which is why herd mechanics like a Musk tweet hold so much sway right now.


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## trog100 (Jun 11, 2021)

i have always tried to avoid the rightness or wrongness of bitcoin.. i got into it because i fancied building a mining machine.. call it an interest in PC hardware..

i follow what is going on because i now have money in it.. by my standards quite a lot of money..

i am not entirely sure what this thread is about but i dont think i will get involved in the ethical side of things.. 

trog


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## AusWolf (Jun 11, 2021)

birdie said:


> God, can you stop embarrassing yourself?


Sorry for asking questions. I thought that's what an online forum was for.



birdie said:


> So, no argument at all. OK.


Again, I'm not arguing. I'm trying to understand why and how people get to trust a decentralised monetary unit that you cannot even buy a loaf of bread for.



birdie said:


> You kinda proved my own point, thanks.


I didn't prove anything. The way I said it: "At least governments rely on people doing their jobs and paying taxes, so there is some vague mutuality in that relationship (even if its trustworthiness is arguable). But that brings me to another question: what makes people trust crypto?" A vague mutuality with arguable trustworthiness is better than nothing. Maybe I should rephrase the question. If I wanted to get into crypto as a newcomer, what could convince me to trust the system?



Papahyooie said:


> 1. Freedom, in general. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you. The fact that you have indicated that you think your government has some sort of mutual agreement with you, tells me that I won't be able to convince you anyway.


There isn't such a thing. You're free to walk in the park, or buy some beer, you're also free to buy and maintain a fleet of Ferraris if you have enough money for it, but you're not free to steal or kill. Or maybe you are if you accept the legal consequences. You're always bound by at least your country's laws. No amount of virtual money can change that.



Papahyooie said:


> 3. *There are not a finite amount of BP or USD in the world.* Your government can, has, and will print/mint more. It is not connected to gold, or anything else, and it hasn't been since the 70s. Conversely, some cryptos ARE finite. Bitcoin is a good example. There can only be a specific amount of Bitcoins because a bitcoin every "bitcoin" is assigned a mathematical number. The algorithm used to create them dictates that only so many are possible. Imagine, if you will, that I have a program that can count to 100. It can't count any higher, because that's all it's programmed to do. Then I assign a "PapahyooieCoin" to each number that it counts. There will only ever be 100 PapahyooieCoins. Bitcoin is the same way. This is VASTLY oversimplifying things, but it's just to illustrate. If you value scarcity and finite-ness, crypto is where you want to be, not GBP or USD. Neither of those are limited. Your government can print/mint more at any time, and do all the time.


The amount is finite at any given time. Governments are free to print more, but doing so devalues the currency. If it can't be done in crypto, it's nice, but how can a regular Joe trust that it really can't and won't be done in the future?



Papahyooie said:


> 5. It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is, you don't have a right to tell me how many graphics cards I can buy, or what I can do with them. E-waste is a problem, sure. But I could make the argument that you playing your silly games (I'm being facetious here, not serious) is far less important than maintaining a global payment network that allows people in despotic countries to do commerce on a global scale, thereby increasing their possibility of collecting more value, increasing their quality of life despite their government's hindrance, and eventually gaining a more free society. In that light, YOU are the one creating e-waste by doing something so frivolous as playing games with hardware that could be put to better, more noble use.


That is a way to see things, but what if for example cars become tools for ABC coin mining (crude example, but why not)? I buy all the cars that I want, and you're left with nothing. Because I can. You want to visit relatives? Use a train. Want to go to work? Use the bus or walk. Not my problem. See?


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## Papahyooie (Jun 12, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> There isn't such a thing. You're free to walk in the park, or buy some beer, you're also free to buy and maintain a fleet of Ferraris if you have enough money for it, but you're not free to steal or kill. Or maybe you are if you accept the legal consequences. You're always bound by at least your country's laws. No amount of virtual money can change that.
> 
> 
> The amount is finite at any given time. Governments are free to print more, but doing so devalues the currency. If it can't be done in crypto, it's nice, but how can a regular Joe trust that it really can't and won't be done in the future?
> ...


I think we're needlessly tripping over the phrase "in general." Crypto is good for freedom of any sort, is what I mean. It has some specific uses that aid in creating a more free society, sure. But it's also just good for freedom as an idea. For some of us, freedom is not a means, but an end. I also think we don't agree on the meaning of freedom in the first place, so here. Read this. 





						Non-aggression principle - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




I don't know about GBP, but the US is literally printing money constantly, every second of every day. And GBP's value is as inextricably tied to the USD as our countries' economies are, so I can't imagine that bodes well for you either. 
As for crypto, a regular joe can learn about how crypto works. Once he has educated himself, and understands the algorithms involved, he will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that BTC is finite. If Joe doesn't want to educate himself, then he'll just have to take my word for it that it's mathematically impossible to create more BTC than the maximum. (Note, this does not apply to ALL cryptocurrencies. Some are infinitely mintable.) 
Or, joe can refuse to either educate himself or take my word for it, and just live his life in a state of being wrong. Doesn't hurt me. 

As for the last part about cars, and you buying all of them up... Yep. Now you've got the picture!


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 12, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> that BTC is finite.


True!


Papahyooie said:


> Note, this does not apply to ALL cryptocurrencies. Some are infinitely mintable.


Also true!

Those two points are where most people have a great deal of confusion and lack of understanding.

Any cryptocoin that has a finite total will experience diminishing returns has more of it is discovered. Cryptocoin that has an unlimited store of total can be continuously mined, but ultimately has little value as it is unlimited.


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## Papahyooie (Jun 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> True!
> 
> Also true!
> 
> ...


I think it's very important to note though, that the "diminishing returns" you're referring to only apply to MINERS, not the currency itself. There is nothing bad about being finite for those that hold it.

I'd also add that cryptos that are unlimited aren't necessarily lacking in value. At least not inherently. After all... Every government backed currency in the world is also infinite, and they still maintain value.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 12, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> After all... Every government backed currency in the world is also infinite, and they still maintain value.


Good point.


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## trog100 (Jun 12, 2021)

be real chaps as the US printing machines go brrrrr the value of each dollar created becomes less... this is a fact with no way around it..

the whole idea of bitcoin is to step outside of this goveremnt and banking created chaos.. become your own bank and take control of your own money..

will it work.. maybe.. maybe not.. 

trog


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## ShiBDiB (Jun 12, 2021)

trog100 said:


> be real chaps as the US printing machines go brrrrr the value of each dollar created becomes less... this is a fact with no way around it..
> 
> the whole idea of bitcoin is to step outside of this goveremnt and banking created chaos.. become your own bank and take control of your own money..
> 
> ...



Lol the illusion that crypto is at all outside of government reach has been dead for years. It's even more obvious now that the FBI proved it can recover it from an international hacking groups wallets.


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## Outback Bronze (Jun 12, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> outside of government



Have to kinda agree with you there. We get Taxed on it now so that means they have their finger in the pie.


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## trog100 (Jun 12, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> Lol the illusion that crypto is at all outside of government reach has been dead for years. It's even more obvious now that the FBI proved it can recover it from an international hacking groups wallets.



maybe.. he he

trog


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## R-T-B (Jun 12, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> Lol the illusion that crypto is at all outside of government reach has been dead for years. It's even more obvious now that the FBI proved it can recover it from an international hacking groups wallets.


I'm still skeptical that even happened.  The idea that they left it in a coinbase managed wallet on US soil stinks to high heavens.


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## AusWolf (Jun 13, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> I think we're needlessly tripping over the phrase "in general." Crypto is good for freedom of any sort, is what I mean. It has some specific uses that aid in creating a more free society, sure. But it's also just good for freedom as an idea. For some of us, freedom is not a means, but an end. I also think we don't agree on the meaning of freedom in the first place, so here. Read this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Call me what you will, but I still fail to see how all of this has any connection to cryptocurrencies.



Papahyooie said:


> I don't know about GBP, but the US is literally printing money constantly, every second of every day. And GBP's value is as inextricably tied to the USD as our countries' economies are, so I can't imagine that bodes well for you either.
> As for crypto, a regular joe can learn about how crypto works. Once he has educated himself, and understands the algorithms involved, he will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that BTC is finite. If Joe doesn't want to educate himself, then he'll just have to take my word for it that it's mathematically impossible to create more BTC than the maximum. (Note, this does not apply to ALL cryptocurrencies. Some are infinitely mintable.)
> Or, joe can refuse to either educate himself or take my word for it, and just live his life in a state of being wrong. Doesn't hurt me.


I'm not planning on getting into crypto, so I guess I'll take your word for it for now. 



Papahyooie said:


> As for the last part about cars, and you buying all of them up... Yep. Now you've got the picture!


That's great, but doesn't that work against the idea of freedom? I mean, if I maintain a fleet of 10,000 cars to make money while you have to walk an hour to work every day, I guess you can see it as freedom to use your legs, but I only see a system just as unfair and exploitative as the one we currently live in (or maybe even more so).


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## 64K (Jun 14, 2021)

I've noticed that 3080s sold prices continue to drop on Ebay for the most part. A couple of you guys mentioned that Ethereum Proof of Work is coming to an end. Does that mean miners will stop mining Ethereum? I'm trying to understand the price drops for 3080s.


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## hat (Jun 14, 2021)

64K said:


> I've noticed that 3080s sold prices continue to drop on Ebay for the most part. A couple of you guys mentioned that Ethereum Proof of Work is coming to an end. Does that mean miners will stop mining Ethereum? I'm trying to understand the price drops for 3080s.


I'm not sure what that change will bring, but the market as a whole has tanked. Probably less people buying hardware.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

64K said:


> I've noticed that 3080s sold prices continue to drop on Ebay for the most part. A couple of you guys mentioned that Ethereum Proof of Work is coming to an end. Does that mean miners will stop mining Ethereum? I'm trying to understand the price drops for 3080s.


Once it goes through the merge, ETH mining will be done.  Now, some other coins like RVN, Conflux, ERGO and anything on Cryptonight is ASIC resistant, ETC is not.  So the ASIC's will go to ETC mining while GPU mining hashrates will diverge to altcoins.

The actual major threat I see is Nicehash alone.  Nicehash accounts for a massive amount of the hash power for ETH.  Now for most people, they do not control (more or less) which coin they are renting their hardware out for.  So it is all that hashrates jumping all to a single coin that may be a problem.  Unless the team comes up with something that auto diversifies but I doubt that heavily (judging by how they operate).

Other than that, no one really knows for certain.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2021)

64K said:


> I've noticed that 3080s sold prices continue to drop on Ebay for the most part. A couple of you guys mentioned that Ethereum Proof of Work is coming to an end. Does that mean miners will stop mining Ethereum? I'm trying to understand the price drops for 3080s.


Going from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake changes everything. GPU mining will have little to no return yield. Anything else based on GPU/GPGPU mining will quickly follow suit and GPU's as mining devices will become an absurd notion.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Going from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake changes everything. GPU mining will have little to no return yield. Anything else based on GPU/GPGPU mining will quickly follow suit and GPU's as mining devices will become an absurd notion.


I hope all currencies will follow, and what you just said will be a general notion applicable not only to Ethereum.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I hope all currencies will follow, and what you just said will be a general notion applicable not only to Ethereum.


wishful thinking.

GPU mining isn't going to go anywhere.  New coins pop up and get backed by PoW which gains popularity through the same group.  Then what follows suite are investors.  Conflux network for instance is specifically PoW.  Same with Cryptonight.

Most altcoins are not even mineable.  Most are POS in some form or another.  A lot are also scams too.  Their value doesn't actually correlate by that either.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> GPU mining isn't going to go anywhere.


Oh yes it is. It will go the way of the dodo very soon. Environment concerns alone will force the conversion.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh yes it is. It will go the way of the dodo very soon. Environment concerns alone will force the conversion.


sorry, it wont.  If you wish to make a bet on that.

The environmental part was already debunked too.  So it doesn't really matter.  We have gone over it to death how the state and its Fiat printing uses far more energy than Crypto.









						The debate about cryptocurrency and energy consumption
					

Energy consumption has become the latest flashpoint for cryptocurrency. Critics decry it as an energy hog while proponents hail it for being less intensive than the current global economy.  One such critic, DigiEconomist founder Alex de Vries, said he’s “never seen anything that is as...




					techcrunch.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> sorry, it wont.


It's already begun.


sepheronx said:


> If you wish to make a bet on that.


Sure, free money is always good.


sepheronx said:


> The environmental part was already debunked too.


And if you really believe THAT, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn, New York I'd like to sell you...


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's already begun.
> 
> Sure, free money is always good.
> 
> And if you really believe THAT, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn, New York I'd like to sell you...


it hasn't.  Sorry

And I already posted a link.  Have a read.  https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/21/the-debate-about-cryptocurrency-and-energy-consumption/

I know you dont like bitcoin.  It is best not to divulge into something that you hate so much and refuse to acknowledge that it wont go anywhere.  I think this conversation is over.

Edit: Now that is over with, here is some interesting news breakdown for folks:


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> it hasn't.  Sorry
> 
> And I already posted a link.  Have a read.  https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/21/the-debate-about-cryptocurrency-and-energy-consumption/


I quickly skimmed through this article. It seems like it's only talking about electricity usage. What about GPU manufacturing and e-waste?


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I quickly skimmed through this article. It seems like it's only talking about electricity usage. What about GPU manufacturing and e-waste?


what about e-waste?

GPU manufacturing is an e-waste itself then.  e-waste is found nearly everywhere.  Why not blame Apple then? Or Samsung?  This is an endless debate.  Nor is it a debate that matters.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> what about e-waste?
> 
> GPU manufacturing is an e-waste itself then.  e-waste is found nearly everywhere.  Why not blame Apple then? Or Samsung?  This is an endless debate.


E-waste on consumer level is always going to be a lot smaller than with mining. A home user doesn't need a hundred GPUs to play games, only one - and even that one doesn't necessarily need to be of the latest generation. Same with phones: you need only one, and when you're done with it, there's a huge used market that's happy to take care of it for you.

Not to mention the fact that you don't push your hardware to the edge of death by playing games a couple hours a day, as opposed to mining 24/7.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> it hasn't. Sorry


Ok, keep telling yourself that.


sepheronx said:


> And I already posted a link. Have a read. https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/21/the-debate-about-cryptocurrency-and-energy-consumption/


That article, and it's conclusions, are flawed beyond reason. What a terrible citation. Let's presume one point is correct(which it isn't): Mining puts a .6% additional load on the power infrastructure of the world. That's .6% ADDITIONAL load on an already over-stressed power system. That's a extra load which would otherwise not exist if mining wasn't a thing.

GPU/GPGPU based mining is going bye bye whether you like it or not, or want to admit it or not.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> E-waste on consumer level is always going to be a lot smaller than with mining. A home user doesn't need a hundred GPUs to play games, only one - and even that one doesn't necessarily need to be of the latest generation. Same with phones: you need only one, and when you're done with it, there's a huge used market that's happy to take care of it for you.


Nope



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/global-ewaste-monitor-2020-1.5634759#:~:text=The%20new%20report%20also%20predicts,waste%20in%20just%2016%20years.&text=E%2Dwaste%20is%20a%20health,hazardous%20substances%20such%20as%20mercury.
		


A home user doesn't have 100 GPU's.  The people like Bitsbetrippin, Redpanda miner, Vostcoin, etc are very small.  These guys have teams and facilities.  Average person does not.

Article stipulates consumer grade stuff like fridges, dishwashers, etc are the problem now.

So, how many people go through a phone per year? How many people have phones?  I guarantee you more than they have of GPU's.



lexluthermiester said:


> Ok, keep telling yourself that.
> 
> That article, and it's conclusions, are flawed beyond reason. What a terrible citation. Let's presume one point is correct(which it isn't): Mining puts a .6% additional load on the power infrastructure of the world. That's .6% ADDITIONAL load on an already over-stressed power system that would otherwise not exist if mining wasn't a thing.
> 
> GPU/GPGPU based mining is going bye bye whether you like it or not, or want to admit it or not.



Sure it is.  Whatever you say.  But I tend to trust those who actually have stake in this business than people who just have a hate for it.  And those say otherwise, and they keep a very strong eye on what is happening.

Here, you hate that article, have another where they also say its overblown:









						How Much Energy Does Bitcoin Actually Consume?
					

Today, Bitcoin consumes as much energy as a small country. This certainly sounds alarming — but the reality is a little more complicated. The author discusses several common misconceptions surrounding the Bitcoin sustainability debate, and ultimately argues that it’s up to the crypto community...




					hbr.org
				




But you will just hate that article and the next and the next and so on so forth.  Pointless.

Maybe crypto mining may die for those with expensive electricity.  For those of us with cheap electricity, no.  And now I am getting $5K from government in Solar panels so I will pay even less for energy.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> Here, you hate that article, have another where they also say its overblown:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You keep using the word "hate". It's sounds childish and is inappropriate. Just because I don't like/agree/support something doesn't mean "hate" is involved. Continuing on...

That article was interesting. It's opening line is very telling;


> Summary.
> Today, Bitcoin consumes as much energy as a small country.


Power that would otherwise not be used if mining didn't exist and was not being used just 5 years ago..

The rest of that article seems to be an attempt at justification and a shallow one at that.



sepheronx said:


> Pointless.


You were saying?


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That article talks about how huge consumer level e-waste already is. Nowhere does it mention anything about mining, so it doesn't serve as a comparison.

Of course individual miners are very small when you compare them to the whole market. But the fact that they have teams and facilities make them a whole lot bigger than individuals only wanting to play games after a hard day's work.

Waste of consumer grade stuff is a problem, that's ok. We haven't seen how big of a problem the current crypto mining boom is going to be as it only started with the current generation of graphics cards. We'll see what happens when the GeForce 40 series comes out. I guarantee that the used market will be flooded with barely working 30 series cards, and a lot of them will be discarded as waste too. I've seen pictures of whole warehouses filled with mining rigs. GPUs in those machines are all going to waste at some point.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You keep using the word "hate". It's sounds childish and is inappropriate. Just because I don't like/agree/support something doesn't mean "hate" is involved. Continuing on...
> 
> That article was interesting. It's opening line is very telling;
> 
> ...


what is childish is how dead certain you are and say "its happening" without anything.  That, is childish.  You made it clear you don't like it.  So that is your problem, not mine.

But I will not go down to your level.  Enjoy your beliefs and I hope things work out well for you.

You should also read the remaining of the article.



AusWolf said:


> That article talks about how huge consumer level e-waste already is. Nowhere does it mention anything about mining, so it doesn't serve as a comparison.
> 
> Of course individual miners are very small when you compare them to the whole market. But the fact that they have teams and facilities make them a whole lot bigger than individuals only wanting to play games after a hard day's work.
> 
> Waste of consumer grade stuff is a problem, that's ok. We haven't seen how big of a problem the current crypto mining boom is going to be as it only started with the current generation of graphics cards. We'll see what happens when the GeForce 40 series comes out. I guarantee that the used market will be flooded with barely working 30 series cards, and a lot of them will be discarded as waste too. I've seen pictures of whole warehouses filled with mining rigs. GPUs in those machines are all going to waste at some point.


You are aware that miners also use a lot of older GPU's, no?  RX470's are still used to mine RVN and other coins.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> what is childish is how dead certain you are and say "its happening" without anything.  That, is childish.
> 
> But I will not go down to your level.  Enjoy your beliefs and I hope things work out well for you.
> 
> You should also read the remaining of the article.


See edit...


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> See edit...


ah, so you just hate that article too (as I speculated already).  So nothing satisfies you regardless the sources.

Good to know.  Bye.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> You are aware that miners also use a lot of older GPU's, no?


Some of them, perhaps. That doesn't change what I said. The bigger, wealthier farms will get rid of their old, used GPUs to mine even more money with the new ones (they would be stupid not to).



sepheronx said:


> RX470's are still used to mine RVN and other coins.


Edit: You know that the huge majority of crypto lies in Bitcoin and Ethereum, right?


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Some of them, perhaps. That doesn't change what I said. The bigger, wealthier farms will get rid of their old, used GPUs to mine even more money with the new ones (they would be stupid not to).



A ton of them are buying those overpriced, lousy mining GPU's.  I know 3 of them who have a ton of them still (the mining companies the most do that).

In asia it may be a different case.  I have seen in Iran, China, Russian company and Vietnamese internet cafe's buying a ton of these new GPU's for their mining farms as they did it as a double wammy - new GPU's so when they can re-open for their machines, and to mine while they cant be opened due to covid.  Read a few of them actually saying it saved their business.

So it is true there would be many who buy the new stuff.  But also integrate the old ones.  The GPU's which are totally useless are things like the 980ti and older (980ti being way too power hungry) and R9 390x and older.  Even then, I see R9 390X's being introduced as I was able to mine with that.  Just not enough to justify its use.  Anything newer than those though, I still see all too common.  AND, then there is the fact that people are selling their older mined GPU's to desperate gamers these days.  I think it was @trog100 who recently sold his 1070's.

I presume those who throw a ton of them away, are the dead GPU's.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> A ton of them are buying those overpriced, lousy mining GPU's.  I know 3 of them who have a ton of them still (the mining companies the most do that).
> 
> In asia it may be a different case.  I have seen in Iran, China, Russian company and Vietnamese internet cafe's buying a ton of these new GPU's for their mining farms as they did it as a double wammy - new GPU's so when they can re-open for their machines, and to mine while they cant be opened due to covid.  Read a few of them actually saying it saved their business.
> 
> ...


Theoretically speaking: if you have a mining farm of 1,000 RTX 3090s, and the 4090 comes out that can mine more with double efficiency, you'll want to swap for the newer architecture, won't you? Selling thousands of GPUs to individuals (or businesses?) isn't something the current market is accustomed to. nvidia is making more money than ever making GPUs, most of which never see store shelves and run 24/7 until they're dead.

Obviously, most miners don't want old, power hungry GPUs. They only use them if they have them already, or have no option to use anything else. But those miners aren't the ones who operate farms with thousands of GPUs, so they're not the bulk of the problem here.

True, some people are desperate for those half-dead, overmined graphics cards just to be able to play games. As for me, I wouldn't even poke them with a stick.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Theoretically speaking: if you have a mining farm of 1,000 RTX 3090s, and the 4090 comes out that can mine more with double efficiency, you'll want to swap for the newer architecture, won't you? Selling thousands of GPUs to individuals (or businesses?) isn't something the current market is accustomed to. nvidia is making more money than ever making GPUs, most of which never see store shelves and run 24/7 until they're dead.
> 
> Obviously, most miners don't want old, power hungry GPUs. They only use them if they have them already, or have no option to use anything else. But those miners aren't the ones who operate farms with thousands of GPUs, so they're not the bulk of the problem here.
> 
> True, some people are desperate for those half-dead, overmined graphics cards just to be able to play games. As for me, I wouldn't even poke them with a stick.


That isn't usually how it works.  They tend to keep them till they are no longer profitable.  It is always a calculation between cost for electricity vs profit.  Once the ROI on those GPU's happen, then they are just looking at electricity prices.  As long as profit exists, they tend to keep.  But the only time there is a massive dump is: either they didn't make their money back and are not interested in long term, or the GPU is no longer profitable.  If you just purchase brand new cards to replace not so old cards that are still profitable, then you have to re-work on your Return on Investment.  Or they use their profits to buy new GPU's to add to the farm with existing GPU's.

Edit: Sorry, third option is if you are those in the game a long time and see they can make far more back in the overpriced scalper market.  In that case, hate the game, not the player.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> That isn't usually how it works.  They tend to keep them till they are no longer profitable.  It is always a calculation between cost for electricity vs profit.  Once the ROI on those GPU's happen, then they are just looking at electricity prices.  As long as profit exists, they tend to keep.  But the only time there is a massive dump is: either they didn't make their money back and are not interested in long term, or the GPU is no longer profitable.  If you just purchase brand new cards to replace not so old cards that are still profitable, then you have to re-work on your Return on Investment.  Or they use their profits to buy new GPU's to add to the farm with existing GPU's.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, third option is if you are those in the game a long time and see they can make far more back in the overpriced scalper market.  In that case, hate the game, not the player.


That's a fair point, though if your ROI is high enough with the next generation, you'll want to swap, won't you? Not to mention selling your used GPUs to those desperate gamers also returns part of the investment.

I'd definitely rather hate the game, not the player(s).  Allowing people to operate mining farms and earn huge amounts of money by doing literally nothing is in no way the reflection of an honest society - but then who ever said the 21st century was the time of honest societies?


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 14, 2021)

Hi,
Little torn about this








						Cryptocurrency wins votes of confidence from Texas governor, department of banking
					

Texas became the second state after Wyoming to recognize blockchain and cryptocurrency in...




					www.houstonchronicle.com


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Environment concerns alone will force the conversion.



BTC/Crypto has to one of the greenest Technologies to boot. You name another Tech that's hell bent on using renewables? 

Here: https://nypost.com/2021/06/11/el-salvador-volcanoes-to-power-bitcoin-mining/

All of this has to be good/better for the Environment no?


----------



## trog100 (Jun 14, 2021)

i see a general worldwide economic collapse coming.. china is seeing another virus shutdown wave.. container ships are piling up at both ends of the routes..

most of what is being said in this thread will soon become of no relevance.. we will soon have more important things to worry about.. 

trog


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 14, 2021)

trog100 said:


> china is seeing another virus shutdown wave



Didnt know that. Pretty bad?


----------



## trog100 (Jun 14, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> Didnt know that. Pretty bad?



 i am not sure how bad but i do see major supply chain issues with shortages and the inevitable rising prices just around the corner.. climate issues will become of secondary importance.. he he

trog


----------



## ppn (Jun 14, 2021)

Whoever uses these unstable coins as currency is putting a rope around his neck ready to be hanged that was demonstrated over and over again. Proof of work wastes energy because 80% of all the coins have bein already mined, so why the hell do they need the remaining 20%. They need them because of greed, free money. For the system to operate hashrate can be at 1%, but you see they need the remaining 99% hashrate to outmine the attacks to the networks that could happen, so to make it secure this becomes anything but green technology. The only reason the price jumps is because miners don't want to sell below costs, and it snowballs from there. Proof of stake is also stupid because nobody will be using the chain to make transactions if it weren't for the wild speculations and swings that it enables the perpetrators to sell the tips and buy the dips therefore making 10% per day, and POS is coin that is stuck, can't be moved, and only makes 10% a year, so not very lucrative at all. And those swings can only last until the losers run out of money anyway. The losers have to learn the hard way usually.


----------



## 64K (Jun 14, 2021)

trog100 said:


> i see a general worldwide economic collapse coming..



I don't think so. Traditionally people turn to gold for security when looking at major economic uncertainties which causes gold to go up. You can look back at prices during the Great Recession from 2007 to 2009 for proof of that. Gold is actually dropping a good bit.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 14, 2021)

As we beat to death in the other thread: Crypto uses far less energy than the banking system that it could replace. Think of the millions of air conditioners, light bulbs, networking equipment, etc etc etc etc on and on forever, that use energy in vast skyscrapers in bank headquarters, and the probably even more that is used in small bank branches on every street corner. Think of the waste when those servers in the data centers that power fintech are replaced every year or two ON SCHEDULE whether they need to be or not. 

Now tell me crypto are the bad guys because we probably use as much as just the light bulbs involved in the above lol.



AusWolf said:


> Call me what you will, but I still fail to see how all of this has any connection to cryptocurrencies.
> 
> 
> I'm not planning on getting into crypto, so I guess I'll take your word for it for now.
> ...


I didn't call you anything, so I dunno what that's about. Anyway, it has a connection to crypto because governments inherently violate the non-aggression principle. And the way to come out from under the thumb of governments is to have independent money and trade. Now, depending on how radical one might be, one could apply this only to despotic governments, or ALL governments, but it remains the same. Having universal global money that cannot be controlled by a government creates and maintains freedom. 

As for the cars again, read the wiki article about the non-aggression principle if you wish to understand. What I am saying does not work against the idea of freedom. Because you have the right to buy as many cars as you like. You do not have the right to take MY car, because it is my property. But I do not have the right to prevent you from buying 10k cars if you so choose, because I do not have a right to those cars. And if that forces me to ride a bus, or walk, or whatever... well, it's my freedom to either deal with that or find another way. Build my own car. Ride a bike. 

I understand why you feel this way, because you're entrenched in the existing system, and it's true, most people can't even fathom not being dependent on it. Freedom, TRUE freedom, is scary. But it's what some of us fight for, and crypto is a huge step in that direction. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it'd be nice if people didn't actively hinder efforts.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> I didn't call you anything, so I dunno what that's about.


There's lot of hate in both camps, but I'm glad to see some people don't partake in it. 



Papahyooie said:


> Anyway, it has a connection to crypto because governments inherently violate the non-aggression principle. And the way to come out from under the thumb of governments is to have independent money and trade. Now, depending on how radical one might be, one could apply this only to despotic governments, or ALL governments, but it remains the same. Having universal global money that cannot be controlled by a government creates and maintains freedom.


It cannot be controlled by governments, but will be controlled by someone. Or at least accumulated beyond measure. I'm pretty sure most of the crypto money out there is already in the hands of a very few people. Either way, this will lead to a despotic system sooner or later where money dictates what you can and cannot do, which isn't so different from the system we have now. Total freedom doesn't work unless people let go of their greed - which will never happen.



Papahyooie said:


> As for the cars again, read the wiki article about the non-aggression principle if you wish to understand. What I am saying does not work against the idea of freedom. Because you have the right to buy as many cars as you like. You do not have the right to take MY car, because it is my property. But I do not have the right to prevent you from buying 10k cars if you so choose, because I do not have a right to those cars. And if that forces me to ride a bus, or walk, or whatever... well, it's my freedom to either deal with that or find another way. Build my own car. Ride a bike.


How free do you feel in a system where some people operate mining farms to get enormously rich while you don't even have access to a single graphics card? Technically, you're free to buy graphics cards that aren't even there. If this extremely unfair situation (chaos) is what you call freedom, then thanks, but I'd rather choose the lesser evil.

Imagine a version of the current economy with a handful of people getting rich working multiple jobs while you are denied to have even one. Even if you wanted to start mining, you can't because all the graphics cards are working hard in mining farms of a select few already.



Papahyooie said:


> I understand why you feel this way, because you're entrenched in the existing system, and it's true, most people can't even fathom not being dependent on it. Freedom, TRUE freedom, is scary. But it's what some of us fight for, and crypto is a huge step in that direction. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it'd be nice if people didn't actively hinder efforts.


Don't get me wrong, I just as much despise of governments around the world as you do. But I also despise of a system where some people have access to unlimited wealth (mining) while others are free to exercise their right to shut up. The idea of freedom isn't scary, but the idea of people getting rich with zero work while others are being called narrow-minded and old-school just for disagreeing with them has nothing to do with freedom - it's only oppression by someone else than your government, wrapped into a nice coating of BS.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> There's lot of hate in both camps, but I'm glad to see some people don't partake in it.


Indeed.   



> It cannot be controlled by governments, but will be controlled by someone. Or at least accumulated beyond measure. I'm pretty sure most of the crypto money out there is already in the hands of a very few people. Either way, this will lead to a despotic system sooner or later where money dictates what you can and cannot do, which isn't so different from the system we have now. Total freedom doesn't work unless people let go of their greed - which will never happen.


That's the beauty. The genie is out of the bottle. BTC becomes centralized? Start using something else. Democratized money. Things are the way they are right now because we're in an awkward transition period. In order to reach the goal of democratized money, we have to let BTC become the giant, bloated, sacrificial lamb on the altar of publicity. 

(note for those political junkies who might be reading, I'm not a fan of democracy in government either, as it's just tyranny by majority. But considering trade is inherently collective in nature, it is the best way forward. As long as nobody is forcing me to trade with a specific coin, and it is my prerogative to use something else if I so wish, pending agreement with the other party, then democracy in money is workable.) 



> How free do you feel in a system where some people operate mining farms to get enormously rich while you don't even have access to a single graphics card? Technically, you're free to buy graphics cards that aren't even there. If this extremely unfair situation (chaos) is what you call freedom, then thanks, but I'd rather choose the lesser evil.


I say more power to them. They are powering the eventual revolution. It isn't chaos at all. In fact, I feel great right now, because I just bought a 3080. Granted, I had to buy an entire computer to get it, but it was free so I don't care. Free because it's paid for with, you guessed it... mining profits.  So I get my free 3080, and they're even gonna throw in a 10-core intel CPU, motherboard, case, and ssd. I don't have it in hands yet, but it's on its way. I also paid for the closing costs on my house during the last boom, and I've bought all sorts of toys with crypto profits in the past. Graphics cards, guitars, VR headsets, servers, you name it. So yea, I feel pretty good. You seem to have an idea that there is some shadowy cabal who is taking all the pie, and that simply isn't the case. 



> Don't get me wrong, I just as much despise of governments around the world as you do. But I also despise of a system where some people have access to unlimited wealth (mining) while others are free to exercise their right to shut up. The idea of freedom isn't scary, but the idea of people getting rich with zero work while others are being called narrow-minded and old-school just for disagreeing with them has nothing to do with freedom - it's only oppression by someone else than your government, wrapped into a nice coating of BS.


Other people in here, I can't speak for. But I've never told anybody to shut up. I have a vested interest in educating others about what crypto is about. Yes, as I said above, we are in an awkward transition period that will probably last decades if not longer, where things are fairly centralized and "unfair." We haven't yet reached the point where enough people are on board to take over the money system, and we haven't yet tested whether people have the stones to do so when governments start pushing back. Part of the beauty of it is that it can be a slow burn without a violent revolution involved, unlike many others.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> That's the beauty. The genie is out of the bottle. BTC becomes centralized? Start using something else. Democratized money. Things are the way they are right now because we're in an awkward transition period. In order to reach the goal of democratized money, we have to let BTC become the giant, bloated, sacrificial lamb on the altar of publicity.
> 
> (note for those political junkies who might be reading, I'm not a fan of democracy in government either, as it's just tyranny by majority. But considering trade is inherently collective in nature, it is the best way forward. As long as nobody is forcing me to trade with a specific coin, and it is my prerogative to use something else if I so wish, pending agreement with the other party, then democracy in money is workable.)


If BTC becomes centralised, what makes you think that other coins won't?

I agree with your view on democracy, but let that not be the topic here (maybe in another forum). 



Papahyooie said:


> I say *more power to them*. They are powering the eventual revolution. It isn't chaos at all. In fact, I feel great right now, because I just bought a 3080. Granted, I had to buy an entire computer to get it, but it was free so I don't care. Free because it's paid for with, you guessed it... mining profits.  So I get my free 3080, and they're even gonna throw in a 10-core intel CPU, motherboard, case, and ssd. I don't have it in hands yet, but it's on its way. I also paid for the closing costs on my house during the last boom, and I've bought all sorts of toys with crypto profits in the past. Graphics cards, guitars, VR headsets, servers, you name it. So yea, I feel pretty good. You seem to have an idea that there is some shadowy cabal who is taking all the pie, and that simply isn't the case.


More power to unknown crypto farmers that you never even heard of, just somehow know that they got rich mining with all the GPUs that you don't have? Are you serious?  They're not powering any revolution other than the revolution of their own wallets getting bigger. It's not about ideals. It's all about money. Unlimited, free money for some, small chips for others (like you, for example). Nobody is changing any system here as far as I see it. It's all BS to make people accept the fact that someone is getting enormously rich with zero work.



Papahyooie said:


> Other people in here, I can't speak for. But I've never told anybody to shut up. I have a vested interest in educating others about what crypto is about. Yes, as I said above, we are in an awkward transition period that will probably last decades if not longer, where things are fairly centralized and "unfair." *We haven't yet reached the point where enough people are on board to take over the money system*, and we haven't yet tested whether people have the stones to do so when governments start pushing back. Part of the beauty of it is that it can be a slow burn without a violent revolution involved, unlike many others.


We can't even reach the point because there are no graphics cards to mine with anymore. All of them are taken by a handful of people.
You can push back governments as far as you like, but you can't prevent "a-hole B" taking power when "a-hole A" falls. A new monetary system doesn't rid us from politics - it only transfers wealth and power from one hand into another.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 14, 2021)

lets get one thing right.. anybody can buy a gpu and have it delivered the next day.. just not at the price some people think they should able to do so at..

anybody can buy and ounce of gold in exactly the same way..

trog


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

trog100 said:


> lets get one thing right.. anybody can buy a gpu and have it delivered the next day.. just not at the price some people think they should able to do so at..
> 
> anybody can buy and ounce of gold in exactly the same way..
> 
> trog








						NVIDIA Graphics Cards | NVIDIA GeForce GPU | SCAN UK
					

Shop the full range of GeForce RTX & GTX graphic cards. Upgrade your PC to the next generation ray tracing, 4K and VR ready gaming graphics cards by NVIDIA.




					www.scan.co.uk
				




Can you show me which of these graphics cards I can buy?


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> If BTC becomes centralised, what makes you think that other coins won't?
> 
> I agree with your view on democracy, but let that not be the topic here (maybe in another forum).


Oh I'm sure they will. And then we can move on from that. But the thing is, once we've made the transition from government controlled fiat to democratized currency, it will be much harder for coins to do so. Everyone can use whatever coin they choose rather than having a singular "legal" currency. Deal with those who will accept your coin of choice, and don't deal with those that won't. Free market in currency is the goal. 



> More power to unknown crypto farmers that you never even heard of, just somehow know that they got rich mining with all the GPUs that you don't have? Are you serious?  They're not powering any revolution other than the revolution of their own wallets getting bigger. It's not about ideals. It's all about money. Unlimited, free money for some, small chips for others (like you, for example). Nobody is changing any system here as far as I see it. It's all BS to make people accept the fact that someone is getting enormously rich with zero work.


The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They are powering the drive toward cryptocurrency being ubiquitous, and hopefully toward freedom in currency at some point in the future. If they can get rich doing so, I'm happy for them. I do not see being rich as a bad thing. In fact I hope and expect to be rich myself someday lol. 



> We can't even reach the point because there are no graphics cards to mine with anymore. All of them are taken by a handful of people.
> You can push back governments as far as you like, but you can't prevent "a-hole B" taking power when "a-hole A" falls. A new monetary system doesn't rid us from politics - it only transfers wealth and power from one hand into another.


That simply isn't true. I just said, I just bought one. I paid a premium, and bought a whole computer to make it *easy* because the extra price was worth not having to do the work of tracking one down, but that was my choice. You can buy a graphics card right now if you want to. It may not be at a price you like, but that is simply the reality of the market. 

A new monetary system does absolutely rid us from politics (or at least from oppressive ones.) Politics is ALL about money. And if the means to mint currency is in the hands of the masses, then if the masses decide that "a-hole B" has too much power, then they stop using a-hole B's currency, and it is devalued to nothing. With crypto, the power is truly in the hands of the people, and it simply cannot be centralized in the absence of the governing system that is keeping it so at the moment. The ONLY reason BTC is as centralized as it is, is because it is currently the best gateway to transfer the value to fiat. You can easily get cash from BTC. That's it. That's the only reason. Remove fiat, and the democratized system takes over. 

But at the end of the day, I will absolutely ally with a-hole B in order to bring down a-hole A. I'll make that deal any and every day. We can worry about a-hole B later.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Edit: You know that the huge majority of crypto lies in Bitcoin and Ethereum, right?


Yes, but miners mine whatever and trade for target currency.



AusWolf said:


> NVIDIA Graphics Cards | NVIDIA GeForce GPU | SCAN UK
> 
> 
> Shop the full range of GeForce RTX & GTX graphic cards. Upgrade your PC to the next generation ray tracing, 4K and VR ready gaming graphics cards by NVIDIA.
> ...


Try Ebay.  He said "not at the price you want," mind.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> NVIDIA Graphics Cards | NVIDIA GeForce GPU | SCAN UK
> 
> 
> Shop the full range of GeForce RTX & GTX graphic cards. Upgrade your PC to the next generation ray tracing, 4K and VR ready gaming graphics cards by NVIDIA.
> ...



none of them directly from scan but all of them from ebay.. some of what i bought on ebay did originate on scan though..

i have bought 10 new 3xxx series cards this year all of them from ebay.. i have invested roughly £11000 doing this i have also sold 8 1070 cards i got about £3000 back from doing this..

i accept your argument that the world aint a fair place and that poorer people are denied things that richer people aint.. that is pretty much how its always been and i dont see it changing..

trog


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## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They are powering the drive toward cryptocurrency being ubiquitous, and hopefully toward freedom in currency at some point in the future. If they can get rich doing so, I'm happy for them. I do not see being rich as a bad thing. In fact I hope and expect to be rich myself someday lol.


I guess that's where our opinions differ. Being the enemy of my enemy doesn't make us friends. Our goals can still be (and usually are) entirely different. I do not support anyone whose only goal is to get rich without any work or without contributing to society in any way.



Papahyooie said:


> That simply isn't true. I just said, I just bought one. I paid a premium, and bought a whole computer to make it *easy* because the extra price was worth not having to do the work of tracking one down, but that was my choice. You can buy a graphics card right now if you want to. It may not be at a price you like, but that is simply the reality of the market.


Well, yeah, if you buy for inflated prices from shady individuals on ebay who offer no warranty whatsoever. Thanks, but I'll pass. Not to mention the fact that you're encouraging those individuals to continue their shady practices and inflate prices even more.



Papahyooie said:


> *A new monetary system does absolutely rid us from politics (or at least from oppressive ones.)* Politics is ALL about money. And if the means to mint currency is in the hands of the masses, then if the masses decide that "a-hole B" has too much power, then they stop using a-hole B's currency, and it is devalued to nothing. With crypto, the power is truly in the hands of the people, and it simply cannot be centralized in the absence of the governing system that is keeping it so at the moment. The ONLY reason BTC is as centralized as it is, is because it is currently the best gateway to transfer the value to fiat. You can easily get cash from BTC. That's it. That's the only reason. Remove fiat, and the democratized system takes over.


It absolutely does not. As long as any kind of money exists, the rich will have more power than the poor. It has always been the order of things. I do not see power being in the hands of group A any better than that of group B. People are people. They want money, they want power. This will never change.

Power should be in the hands of the wise, not in the hands of the ones with access to graphics cards.



trog100 said:


> none of them directly from scan but all of them from ebay.. some of what i bought on ebay did originate on scan though..
> 
> i have bought 10 new 3xxx series cards this year all of them from ebay.. i have invested roughly £11000 doing this i have also sold 8 1070 cards i got about £3000 back from doing this..


See my response to Papahyooie: no, thanks.



trog100 said:


> i accept your argument that the world aint a fair place and that poorer people are denied things that richer people aint.. that is pretty much how its always been and i dont see it changing..


Exactly. That's why I only see crypto as an attempt to transfer money and power from one set of hands to another (and with no work whatsoever).


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> and with no work whatsoever


I know it's not popular to say, but crypto on any scale whatsoever does actually involve labor.  It gets downright menial.

What card failed any why becomes your life.  It quickly becomes a minimum wage style job (with nearly equal pay if you cash out immediate).


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I know it's not popular to say, but crypto on any scale whatsoever does actually involve labor.  It gets downright menial.
> 
> What card failed any why becomes your life.  It quickly becomes a minimum wage style job (with nearly equal pay if you cash out immediate).


Except that no one else profits from doing that work besides you. You're not making any product, and you're not offering any service, or anything useful to society.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 14, 2021)

i aint gonna debate your unfair world theories but crypto isnt any different than anything else.. you do seem to be unfairly picking on it..

i dont like your ebay shady character references ether.. ebay sellers are mostly just normal people..

ebay is a pretty good price discovery mechanism.. false promises by retailers are not..

trog


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## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Except that no one else profits from doing that work besides you. You're not making any product, and you're not offering any service, or anything useful to society.


You are providing the payment network.

There are furthermore mining farms in the pacific northwest here that offer employment, if that's what you meant.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 14, 2021)

trog100 said:


> i aint gonna debate your unfair world theories but crypt isnt any different than anything else.. you do seem to be unfairly picking on it..


That's exactly my point. It won't bring us to a new world with "more free" people. It's only a transfer of wealth from one group to another.



trog100 said:


> i dont like your ebay shady character references ether.. ebay sellers are mostly just normal people..


Normal people who somehow managed to buy graphics cards at store prices, and are selling them at hugely inflated prices with no warranty. Of course there's a few honest people still who only want to sell their used stuff in hopes of buying something new - I have nothing against them.



R-T-B said:


> You are providing the payment network.


Well, you don't, your computer is. Besides, banks do that too with normal currencies. I still can't see how this all benefits anyone other than the owner of mining farms.


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## trog100 (Jun 14, 2021)

i did say i wasnt keen on getting into ethical debate.. i have slipped a bit on this one.. he he..

trog


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## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Well, you don't, your computer is.


Did the computer build and maintain itself now?



AusWolf said:


> Besides, banks do that too with normal currencies.


At a much higher estimated power usage when you consider all the branches, yes.

Cryptos even better at per transaction cost if you exclude pigs like Bitcoin and such.


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## AusWolf (Jun 15, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Did the computer build and maintain itself now?


I suppose building and maintaining a computer for one's self with the sole purpose of making money and providing the payment network for people who do the same is a highly useful job, just like being a shopkeeper or car mechanic... oh wait... 



R-T-B said:


> At a much higher estimated power usage when you consider all the branches, yes.
> 
> Cryptos even better at per transaction cost if you exclude pigs like Bitcoin and such.


Power usage is one thing. Another thing is whether we really need alternative currencies to be accumulated in the hands of alternative people through alternative payment networks. Of course these people will do everything to promote their currencies to make sure the network stays alive, but that only serves the purpose of them becoming and staying rich. No monetary system is benevolent for the masses, not even crypto.

An analogy: in the traditional system, you work for your money, and you might think you've achieved something when you get a bonus or a promotion at your job, even though your bonus is just a tiny portion of what your company makes. With crypto, your computer does the work (unless you trade), and you might think you've achieved something when your mining or trading efforts return some profit. On the large scale, your tiny profit is just as insignificant compared to the one that the world's top crypto farmers make as your bonus in your regular job is compared to what your company makes. Your little wallet is only worth something because someone has a bigger one than yours, and vice versa. If everyone profits equally, then money has no real value.

The only difference I see is the person who benefits from the system: the CEO of your workplace is probably just as unknown and alien to you as the largest crypto miners are, but he's done something to get where he is, and he's still doing a lot to maintain the reputation of the company in front of its customers through providing the products or service the company offers (through you among others of course). On the other hand, the only thing the largest crypto miners ever did was buy computer parts by masses, and the only service they ever provide is maintain the payment network that serves the only purpose of themselves getting rich. There's no product, no service, only the flow of money. Everybody can think of this what they want, but to me, it stinks big time.


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## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I suppose building and maintaining a computer for one's self with the sole purpose of making money and providing the payment network for people who do the same is a highly useful job, just like being a shopkeeper or car mechanic... oh wait...


I know you were trying to be ironic, but it's not.


----------



## R0H1T (Jun 15, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> At a much higher estimated power usage when you consider all the branches, yes.


There's no evidence of that, banks opening branches have little to do with transactions in & of itself. Most do to cover retail customers over certain (major) areas or cities, are you really counting regular PC power usage in there?


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> There's no evidence of that,


There's a lot of evidence when you don't contest my main point, which was consider the branches.  You can't seperate traditional banking from them, which means they are part of the figure.

There have been several studies done and the only way crypto falls short vs traditonal banking is in per transaction energy cost, and there are coins that address that too.  Most aren't mainstream yet admittedly.


----------



## R0H1T (Jun 15, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> which was consider the branches.


And I said it has nothing to do with transactions per se. A lot of people still deal in cash & want physical places with real people to talk to. You can't replace that with imaginary cryptocurrencies having 99% better power efficiency.

If you could do everything online Amazon would be the most value company in the world, or Alibaba, & every retail or wholesale storefront would shut shop.


----------



## authorized (Jun 15, 2021)

There's something I've been wondering about for some time - blockchain's size.
It doesn't seem to be a worry for crypto people, why's that? The only explanation I've seen was a claim that the growth of storage capacity outpaces the growth of blockchains. That may be true for now when crypto is niche, but if at any point cryptocurrencies actually become a popular payment system used by the masses, blockchain's size will explode.
I guess some sort of sharding could be implemented, but wouldn't that seriously compromise security?


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> And I said it has nothing to do with transactions per se. A lot of people still deal in cash & want physical places with real people to talk to. You can't replace that with imaginary cryptocurrencies having 99% better power efficiency.



That is a fair point but that wasn't the initial claim I was responding to.



authorized said:


> There's something I've been wondering about for some time - blockchain's size.
> It doesn't seem to be a worry for crypto people, why's that? The only explanation I've seen was a claim that the growth of storage capacity outpaces the growth of blockchains. That may be true for now when crypto is niche, but if at any point cryptocurrencies actually become a popular payment system used by the masses, blockchain's size will explode.
> I guess some sort of sharding could be implemented, but wouldn't that seriously compromise security?


The blockchain size isn't much more of a concern than any record keeping system.  You furthermore don't need to download the full blockchain to participate in securing the network anymore.  Leaving that to a few seems to function fine.


----------



## R0H1T (Jun 15, 2021)

Yes but I'm yet to find accurate estimates of as to how crypto would be more efficient, btw the power estimates for mining are also overblown. My argument is that in some sense unless you get completely off of (physical) bank notes crypto or really any other alternative is not viable in the long run. Secondly governance & law ~ how do you deal with crypto scams & what happens when the developers just want to turn off (or ON) the switch in the hopes of making a quick buck?


----------



## The red spirit (Jun 15, 2021)

trog100 said:


> i dont like your ebay shady character references ether.. ebay sellers are mostly just normal people..


Except that there are a lot of scammers. I have been sold 3 times hardware that was said to be functioning only to receive it dead.



trog100 said:


> ebay is a pretty good price discovery mechanism.. false promises by retailers are not...


Not at all, it's one of the worst. It's unrealistic as people can charge way more than what they could sell for locally on there. You will find similar stuff much cheaper locally. Some people in my country buy used things locally for cheap and then that stuff on ebay for 4-5 times what they paid for it. Sometimes that mark up is literally 10 times or even more. If some dude bought ATi X800 XT card for 5 Euros, he could easily sell it on ebay for 120 Euros and that's without shipping included. ATi 3870 locally sells for 10 Euros, but on ebay 90 Euros. Seriously, if you do this stuff on ebay long enough and with bigger quantities, you likely could get quite wealthy. ebay isn't a good price discovery mechanism, it's the place where people try to upsell as much as they possibly could. ebay only sometimes is reasonable with already expensive things


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2021)

I tried to wave the flag of truce here, and be educational. But when the argument inevitably ends up going toward "What you're doing isn't important" then there's obviously nothing I'm going to be able to do to explain it. 

It's important to me. I don't particularly care if it's important to you. I guess all I can say, since nobody seems to want to just mind their own business is "try and stop me." 

I didn't want to get all militant anarchist in here, but here we are lol. 

The problem with these discussions is that nobody's here to understand, they're here to argue. And while I have a single stalwart position to defend, the opposition has an infinite number of goalposts to move behind.


----------



## r.h.p (Jun 16, 2021)

hey dudes just a quicky , ive got .5 of a coin mined in Ethereum , and sent it to coin base . what the hell can i use it for ? any ideas ?


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 16, 2021)

r.h.p said:


> hey dudes just a quicky , ive got .5 of a coin mined in Ethereum , and sent it to coin base . what the hell can i use it for ? any ideas ?


Cash it out or trade it for something else?  That's usually what's coinbase is good for.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 16, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> The problem with these discussions is that nobody's here to understand, they're here to argue. And while I have a single stalwart position to defend, the opposition has an infinite number of goalposts to move behind.


I want to understand, as I don't believe anything in this world can be entirely good or bad. It's just that no argument presented to defend crypto has been strong enough to convince me that it's actually something that was either invented with the purpose of, or has the ability to make the world a better place. I've honestly learned a lot from you and other advocates of crypto here, but I'm still not convinced.

Lower energy usage than bank offices and branches: may be true, but 1. blockchain calculations consume way more energy than bank transactions, 2. having a branch you can physically walk into and ask experts about products and general advice is really helpful and necessary in the modern monetary world. Not everyone is a financial expert or computer genius.
Independence from central banks and governments: true, but you're dependent on other people using the same currency as you. If everyone swaps for RANDOMBScoin, your money is worthless unless you act fast and make the switch soon enough yourself. It's infinitely more volatile than any national currency, and that's not something a lot of people would want to live with.
Promoting freedom and non-aggression: that sounds fancy, but being free from a central bank doesn't mean you're entirely free. You're still dependent on the crypto market, the security of your wallet, laws, etc. You can't buy freedom, and you can't mine it, either. You're also dependent on other people doing their daily jobs. If nobody makes food and nobody delivers it to supermarkets, then what do you eat? Expecting everybody to be a crypto miner/trader is pure arrogance. And that brings us to the next bullet point:



Papahyooie said:


> I didn't want to get all militant anarchist in here, but here we are lol.


It's not you. It's the general attitude of crypto as I see it: _"F* the government, F* central banks, F* the economy, I quit, and let my computer do all the money earning from now on"_. If you say crypto is the future, you're basically expecting other people to be stuck in the current economy with their minimum wage jobs and deliver the goods that you order with your virtual money that you earned by building a PC entirely for yourself. Because you give them no other choice. Someone has to do it. Then when they get interested in crypto mining themselves, or just want to play games after a hard day at work, and go out to buy a PC with their hard-earned money, they can't, because all the graphics cards have already been bought up by large-scale farmers just because they can. Or should I say: they have the freedom to do so? Non-aggression my arse!


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 16, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You did say that you are looking at the short term... So which is it?
> 
> You know me well enough to know if I were being condescending you would have no doubts of it. So let's let that go..
> 
> ...



The 1 year and 5 year trends are still upward, if you draw a line from the brginning to the end you can inly draw one going upward.

 The huge peak in value we had recently is a one off, and if you discount that for obvious reasons such as the pandemic (trust issues in existing systems etc) and now the correction as vaccination is happening and regular economy reopened, there is still a trend going up or becoming neutral at best. 

There is no long term decline neither in BTC or ETH. At best it is short term correction to the ongoing trend.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I want to understand, as I don't believe anything in this world can be entirely good or bad. It's just that no argument presented to defend crypto has been strong enough to convince me that it's actually something that was either invented with the purpose of, or has the ability to make the world a better place. I've honestly learned a lot from you and other advocates of crypto here, but I'm still not convinced.
> 
> Lower energy usage than bank offices and branches: may be true, but 1. blockchain calculations consume way more energy than bank transactions, 2. having a branch you can physically walk into and ask experts about products and general advice is really helpful and necessary in the modern monetary world. Not everyone is a financial expert or computer genius.
> Independence from central banks and governments: true, but you're dependent on other people using the same currency as you. If everyone swaps for RANDOMBScoin, your money is worthless unless you act fast and make the switch soon enough yourself. It's infinitely more volatile than any national currency, and that's not something a lot of people would want to live with.
> ...


Obviously nothing in this world can be entirely good or bad. I don't think anybody would make that claim about crypto. 

You seem to be under the impression that you have to be a computer genius or a financial expert to use crypto... You don't have to mine crypto to use crypto. USING crypto is just as easy as any payment system on your phone (apple pay, android pay, etc.) And there are services that you can actually use crypto on a debit card, both using crypto directly and transferring seamlessly to fiat for places that don't accept crypto. These things are not mainstream yet. Hopefully they eventually will be. But there is no technological barrier to entry. You do not need to mine crypto in order to use crypto. 

Independence from central banks and governments IS the point. Right now, you are dependent on everyone using the same currency as you. If the US dollar or whatever other currency collapses (and it absolutely can) then your money is worthless unless you act fast and make the switch soon enough yourself. See how that works? Fiat currencies are based on trust just as much as crypto, it's just WHO you trust that changes. Fiat, the trust is in governments. Crypto, trust is in the masses. I get it if you choose to trust governments more, but do not pretend that it's somehow different. It's exactly the same. Yes, crypto is generally far more volatile NOW. The hope is that that is not the case in the future, and it is changing. BTC has been pretty much as stable as the stock market in general for a couple of years now. Hopefully that track record can continue, and eventually reach stability parity with a fiat currency. 

Freedom from central banks aids in freedom from other things. It's not a silver bullet, no. Nobody said it was. But considering EVERYTHING is about money, including politics, it makes sense that wresting control of the money supply away from centralized government creates a more free environment. You are INHERENTLY more free by using crypto, because the money you are using is not controlled by a centralized government. I realize this sort of thing isn't on many peoples' minds... for some of us, it's very important. Continue to live in your cage if you wish, I say, but don't hinder me in my quest to break free. 

I don't understand your bizarre idea that crypto will make nobody bake bread and deliver it to supermarkets. The only thing I can guess here is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're doing here. You do not have to mine crypto in order to use crypto, and if crypto replaced the world's currencies, there would still be people who bake bread and deliver it to supermarkets... they'd just get paid in crypto instead of dollar and pounds. Nobody is expecting everybody to be a crypto miner. That's silly, and I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up. 

I'm not going to continue to argue the gamer vs miner thing after this point. Buying a graphics card that I have a right to buy is not aggression. You may THINK it harms you, but it doesn't, because you don't have a right to the card in the first place. When I buy a graphics card to mine with, I have made a consensual transaction with the graphics card seller to purchase it for my own purposes. YOU do not have a right to intervene in that transaction, no matter what you think. You may not like it, but there are lots of things you probably don't like. In fact, there are lots of things I don't like. I don't like being forced under threat of violence to pay taxes that go to building bombs to murder children in Afghanistan, for instance. But here we are. It is my prerogative to say _F* the government _, and crypto doesn't depend on your liking that. Again, I'm trying to be educational here, but if you reject the base assumption, there's nothing I can do about that, and I'm wasting my time.


----------



## arczi19 (Jun 16, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> BTC has been pretty much as stable as the stock market in general for a couple of years now. Hopefully that track record can continue, and eventually reach stability parity with a fiat currency.



I would be curious to know what are you comparing BTC against here, as far as my knowledge goes, this statement could not be more inaccurate.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 16, 2021)

arczi19 said:


> I would be curious to know what are you comparing BTC against here, as far as my knowledge goes, this statement could not be more inaccurate.


The price history of BTC vs various indexes (S&P500, etc), as a percentage of total value from January 2018 to December 2020. Granted, there are a few outliers that belie my claim. Hence "pretty much."

2021, not so much.


----------



## arczi19 (Jun 16, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> The price history of BTC vs various indexes (S&P500, etc), as a percentage of total value from January 2018 to December 2020. Granted, there are a few outliers that belie my claim. Hence "pretty much."
> 
> 2021, not so much.



Hmm, seems a bit disingenuous to be that selective when talking about stability of BTC. We should be looking at the whole thing, not just a couple of years that fit our premise.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 16, 2021)

arczi19 said:


> Hmm, seems a bit disingenuous to be that selective when talking about stability of BTC. We should be looking at the whole thing, not just a couple of years that fit our premise.


First off, "we" shouldn't do anything, as there is no "we." I'll look at what I please.

Second, I did say "for a couple of years" which is arguably 2018-2020. Moreover, I was talking about the possibility of establishing a track record of comparative stability versus known quantities in the future, not making a claim that BTC is or is not stable. After all, the American stock market hasn't exactly been relatively stable in the same time period either. 

Lastly, I do absolutely admit that 2021 does not fit that pattern. So perhaps I should amend my statement to "hopefully BTC can regain that relative stability, and THEN establish a track record."


----------



## arczi19 (Jun 16, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> First off, "we" shouldn't do anything, as there is no "we." I'll look at what I please.


 
You can indeed, but I do not feel comfortable pointing fingers at random people on the internet and tried to make my point in a more polite manner. 



Papahyooie said:


> Lastly, I do absolutely admit that 2021 does not fit that pattern. So perhaps I should amend my statement to "hopefully BTC can regain that relative stability, and THEN establish a track record."



Now that's a statement I can agree with.


----------



## 64K (Jun 16, 2021)

Well, Nvidia thinks the gaming GPUs are meant for gaming. Have a look at their site. There is no mention of mining at all. Just saying........









						Graphics Cards, Gaming, Laptops, and Virtual Reality from NVIDIA GeForce
					

The world's most advanced graphics cards, gaming solutions, and gaming technology - from NVIDIA GeForce. Download drivers, automate your optimal playable settings with GeForce Experience.



					www.nvidia.com


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 16, 2021)

arczi19 said:


> You can indeed, but I do not feel comfortable pointing fingers at random people on the internet and tried to make my point in a more polite manner.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's a statement I can agree with.


Fair enough. When people say "we should do something" to me, that implies that I'm part of some conglomerate, and I must comply with the group. 

I'm sure if you've read the thread, you can guess why that's an issue for me lol. But my apologies. I can appreciate intent.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Lower energy usage than bank offices and branches: may be true, but 1. blockchain calculations consume way more energy than bank transactions


This does not neccasarily have to be true.  It's more a design limitation of PoW coins like bitcoin.  As more PoS coins come out, I see this not being an issue at all.



64K said:


> Well, Nvidia thinks the gaming GPUs are meant for gaming. Have a look at their site. There is no mention of mining at all. Just saying........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do, too.  That's not an arguement against crypto in general.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 16, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> Obviously nothing in this world can be entirely good or bad. I don't think anybody would make that claim about crypto.
> 
> You seem to be under the impression that you have to be a computer genius or a financial expert to use crypto... You don't have to mine crypto to use crypto. USING crypto is just as easy as any payment system on your phone (apple pay, android pay, etc.) And there are services that you can actually use crypto on a debit card, both using crypto directly and transferring seamlessly to fiat for places that don't accept crypto. These things are not mainstream yet. Hopefully they eventually will be. But there is no technological barrier to entry. You do not need to mine crypto in order to use crypto.


Cool, I believe you on this. 



Papahyooie said:


> Independence from central banks and governments IS the point. Right now, you are dependent on everyone using the same currency as you. If the US dollar or whatever other currency collapses (and it absolutely can) then your money is worthless unless you act fast and make the switch soon enough yourself. See how that works? Fiat currencies are based on trust just as much as crypto, it's just WHO you trust that changes. Fiat, the trust is in governments. Crypto, trust is in the masses. I get it if you choose to trust governments more, but do not pretend that it's somehow different. It's exactly the same. Yes, crypto is generally far more volatile NOW. The hope is that that is not the case in the future, and it is changing. BTC has been pretty much as stable as the stock market in general for a couple of years now. Hopefully that track record can continue, and eventually reach stability parity with a fiat currency.


There's far less chance of the US dollar collapsing than any crypto currency. Trust in a central government's money that has been there for hundreds of years is different from trust in the masses who 1. do as they please, 2. aren't usually educated enough to make educated decisions.



Papahyooie said:


> Freedom from central banks aids in freedom from other things. It's not a silver bullet, no. Nobody said it was. But considering EVERYTHING is about money, including politics, it makes sense that wresting control of the money supply away from centralized government creates a more free environment. You are INHERENTLY more free by using crypto, because the money you are using is not controlled by a centralized government. I realize this sort of thing isn't on many peoples' minds... for some of us, it's very important. Continue to live in your cage if you wish, I say, but don't hinder me in my quest to break free.
> 
> I don't understand your bizarre idea that crypto will make nobody bake bread and deliver it to supermarkets. The only thing I can guess here is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're doing here. You do not have to mine crypto in order to use crypto, and if crypto replaced the world's currencies, there would still be people who bake bread and deliver it to supermarkets... they'd just get paid in crypto instead of dollar and pounds. Nobody is expecting everybody to be a crypto miner. That's silly, and I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up.


I continue "living in my cage" because I get my salary in British pounds, not crypto. That's my point with the example, and it's not gonna change. Companies are not going to swap for a currency that is not backed by a central bank, and can't be traced by them for taxation purposes and whatnot. The guy who delivers your groceries to the supermarket will never be paid in crypto. The government simply won't allow that. I'm sure you feel a lot more free mining and trading in crypto, but somebody has to work normal jobs for normal money, and pay taxes, healthcare, pension, etc. you know.



Papahyooie said:


> I'm not going to continue to argue the gamer vs miner thing after this point. Buying a graphics card that I have a right to buy is not aggression. You may THINK it harms you, but it doesn't, because you don't have a right to the card in the first place. When I buy a graphics card to mine with, I have made a consensual transaction with the graphics card seller to purchase it for my own purposes. YOU do not have a right to intervene in that transaction, no matter what you think. You may not like it, but there are lots of things you probably don't like. In fact, there are lots of things I don't like. I don't like being forced under threat of violence to pay taxes that go to building bombs to murder children in Afghanistan, for instance. But here we are. It is my prerogative to say _F* the government _, and crypto doesn't depend on your liking that. Again, I'm trying to be educational here, but if you reject the base assumption, there's nothing I can do about that, and I'm wasting my time.


So technically, _you_'re telling _me_ what I have the right to buy and what I don't, meaning you buy whatever you want and as many as you want, and it is my obligation to be happy with the leftovers (if there's anything left at all). That's the exact opposite of non-aggression as I see it. I wonder if your statement would change if it was about food, for example.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Cool, I believe you on this.


Good! 



> There's far less chance of the US dollar collapsing than any crypto currency. Trust in a central government's money that has been there for hundreds of years is different from trust in the masses who 1. do as they please, 2. aren't usually educated enough to make educated decisions.


That's fine. I agree that it's less likely to collapse. I also believe it's morally reprehensible to perpetuate such a murderous institution if there are other alternatives possible, but that' just me. You're free to continue trusting whom you wish. 




> I continue "living in my cage" because I get my salary in British pounds, not crypto. That's my point with the example, and it's not gonna change. Companies are not going to swap for a currency that is not backed by a central bank, and can't be traced by them for taxation purposes and whatnot. The guy who delivers your groceries to the supermarket will never be paid in crypto. The government simply won't allow that. I'm sure you feel a lot more free mining and trading in crypto, but somebody has to work normal jobs for normal money, and pay taxes, healthcare, pension, etc. you know.


First, I didn't mean to offend with the "live in your cage" comment, that wasn't directed at you personally, but in the royal sense. That being said, you are wrong. You can buy computer equipment with crypto on newegg right now (and even get a lower price for doing so!) There is literally a bitcoin ATM in my small town shopping mall where you can exchange for USD, and vice versa. Microsoft accepts bitcoin. Paypal. Overstock.com. Whole Foods. Etsy. Starbucks. Home Depot. Twitch. All of these companies accept BTC. 

As for paying people in crypto, and the government not allowing it... _That's the point._ If the infrastructure gets big enough, government will not be able to stop it. That's the power of a distributed system. It cannot be shut down. There are plenty of things that government can do to hinder crypto, _as long as a transfer to fiat is required to perform day to day operations. _Once that is not the case, there will be nothing government can do to stop it. And that's the goal. I never said we were there yet, simply that that's the goal.

I work a normal job. I'm a software QA Automation Engineer. I'm not really sure why you think that that makes any difference. 



> So technically, _you_'re telling _me_ what I have the right to buy and what I don't, meaning you buy whatever you want and as many as you want, and it is my obligation to be happy with the leftovers (if there's anything left at all). That's the exact opposite of non-aggression as I see it. I wonder if your statement would change if it was about food, for example.


Negative. If you get the card first, and make such a consensual transaction with the card manufacturer or seller, then I have no right to intervene in that transaction either. It is not my fault that graphics card makers cannot keep up with the demand, nor is it my responsibility to make sure that you get one before me. You can't get a graphics card because you either haven't put in the work that I have to find one, or you weren't willing to pay the premium of supply/demand, and I am. If you were or did one of those two things, and did them better than the next guy, you'd have a shiny new graphics card. It's not the next guy's responsibility to make sure you get a graphics card. If you wish to discuss non-aggression, then you need to read that Wikipedia page I posted and truly understand it. Because chances are, your ideas of what "aggression" means are not what it truly means. 

No, my feelings and by proxy my statement about the subject would not change if it were food. I have cultivated (pun intended) the ability to fend for myself in such situations. I suggest everyone else do the same, because there is nothing but a vague promise from the guys with all the guns, that they won't do exactly that to you and your food supply.


----------



## 64K (Jun 16, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> This does not neccasarily have to be true.  It's more a design limitation of PoW coins like bitcoin.  As more PoS coins come out, I see this not being an issue at all.
> 
> 
> I do, too.  That's not an arguement against crypto in general.



That was intended to all of the comments that GPUs aren't intended for gamers only.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 16, 2021)

64K said:


> That was intended to all of the comments that GPUs aren't intended for gamers only.


Gotcha.  Missed the comment stream.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 17, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> That's fine. I agree that it's less likely to collapse. I also believe it's morally reprehensible to perpetuate such a murderous institution if there are other alternatives possible, but that' just me. You're free to continue trusting whom you wish.


There's absolute zero chance I can earn my living in crypto, so it isn't really a question of trust, is it? Besides, I have no say in what those murderous institutions do with the taxes I pay, and I similarly have no say in what other members of the crypto market do with their money, so... 



Papahyooie said:


> First, I didn't mean to offend with the "live in your cage" comment, that wasn't directed at you personally, but in the royal sense. That being said, you are wrong. You can buy computer equipment with crypto on newegg right now (and even get a lower price for doing so!) There is literally a bitcoin ATM in my small town shopping mall where you can exchange for USD, and vice versa. Microsoft accepts bitcoin. Paypal. Overstock.com. Whole Foods. Etsy. Starbucks. Home Depot. Twitch. All of these companies accept BTC.


No offense taken.  Mostly every sentence starting with "you" means a general you on an online forum.

Are you talking about the USA? Financing and politics in Europe are a lot more centralised. Here in the UK for example, there is literally nothing you can do with your BTC or any other crypto coin without converting it into British pounds first. So I'm not wrong, just talking from a different perspective. 

Besides, if those companies accept BTC, then they are a part and decisive factor in the crypto economy as well, so technically, you're also trusting them when you trust crypto. And the way they treat their employees isn't usually better than what governments do in general (speaking about murderous institutions).



Papahyooie said:


> As for paying people in crypto, and the government not allowing it... _That's the point._ If the infrastructure gets big enough, government will not be able to stop it. That's the power of a distributed system. It cannot be shut down. There are plenty of things that government can do to hinder crypto, _as long as a transfer to fiat is required to perform day to day operations. _Once that is not the case, there will be nothing government can do to stop it. And that's the goal. I never said we were there yet, simply that that's the goal.
> 
> I work a normal job. I'm a software QA Automation Engineer. I'm not really sure why you think that that makes any difference.


And I work as a warehouse trainer at one of the country's largest logistics firms. As I mentioned, I see no chance my company could ever pay me in something other than GPB. There are strict employment and taxation laws they have to adhere to. They can't go like _"nah, we'll just skip the tax BS and pay everybody in BTC"_. There's also public healthcare here (known as national insurance, or NI) which is deducted from everybody's wage. Same with state pension. These are all controlled by the government. How are you going to pay for these if you're not using the government's money? Do you think companies focused on constant economic growth and compliance are going to bother with conversions from a highly volatile currency? Wouldn't make any sense.



Papahyooie said:


> Negative. If you get the card first, and make such a consensual transaction with the card manufacturer or seller, then I have no right to intervene in that transaction either. It is not my fault that graphics card makers cannot keep up with the demand, nor is it my responsibility to make sure that you get one before me. You can't get a graphics card because you either haven't put in the work that I have to find one, or you weren't willing to pay the premium of supply/demand, and I am. If you were or did one of those two things, and did them better than the next guy, you'd have a shiny new graphics card. It's not the next guy's responsibility to make sure you get a graphics card. If you wish to discuss non-aggression, then you need to read that Wikipedia page I posted and truly understand it. Because chances are, your ideas of what "aggression" means are not what it truly means.
> 
> No, my feelings and by proxy my statement about the subject would not change if it were food. I have cultivated (pun intended) the ability to fend for myself in such situations. I suggest everyone else do the same, because there is nothing but a vague promise from the guys with all the guns, that they won't do exactly that to you and your food supply.


You're right about one thing: it's not your responsibility to make sure I can get a graphics card. But the thing is, some people have been buying them up by hundreds, and that doesn't by far qualify as normal use. They could easily do with fewer, but they choose not to. With the food analogy, they would buy everything up from supermarkets, and not even bat an eye that so many people are starving. It's called greed, which is aggressive by nature. Turning back to the previous topic of who you trust, how is an economic system controlled by selfish, greedy people morally more acceptable than one that's controlled by equally selfish and greedy people but is a lot more stable?

About the food cultivation thing: Having a (not extremely well-paid) full time job, and living in a flat in a relatively busy small town is the sure recipe for not having the time, resource and infrastructure for such things. I wasn't born a farmer, and never intended to be one. Not to mention giving up my life and taking on farming (which I don't find particularly desirable) would also require my girlfriend to give up hers. So all in all: not gonna happen unless absolutely necessary. Another thing is, life is short, and if you spend all of it preparing for the worst, then you never truly live, which is again something I can't and don't want to afford.



R-T-B said:


> This does not neccasarily have to be true.  It's more a design limitation of PoW coins like bitcoin.  As more PoS coins come out, I see this not being an issue at all.


I hope all coins turn into PoS eventually, and peace and prosperity will return to PC-lovers' lives.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Jun 18, 2021)

TITAN and STEEL Emerge As Bear-Proof Assets
					

Over the past few weeks, as market conditions worsened for crypto as a whole, TITAN and STEEL have stood out as gems.




					ironfinance.medium.com
				




Lol. Oh yeah, in case you haven't heard, this entire scheme collapsed.









						Iron Finance's Titan Token Falls to Near Zero in DeFi Panic Selling
					

"What happened is just the worst thing that could possibly happen considering their tokenomics," said Iron Finance investor Fred Schebesta.




					www.coindesk.com
				






> The token was recently changing hands for around $0.000000035, down from Wednesday’s high of $65. The fallout, which has been swift, has brought the project to its knees.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 18, 2021)

Positive news in China: https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cr...at-miners-clean-energy-usage-exceeds-50-in-ch

Funny how people are saying its banned in China. I'd say the word restricted comes to mind instead.


----------



## Robert Bourgoin (Jun 18, 2021)

Hedge funds bought deep into Bitcoin and crypto, that spells trouble and chance of fair play non existent.
Be wary be scared, don't go in with any amount that you will miss cause you probably will.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> There's absolute zero chance I can earn my living in crypto, so it isn't really a question of trust, is it? Besides, I have no say in what those murderous institutions do with the taxes I pay, and I similarly have no say in what other members of the crypto market do with their money, so...
> 
> 
> No offense taken.  Mostly every sentence starting with "you" means a general you on an online forum.
> ...



PoS indeed but it has yet to be seen how that will work out exactly; the metric for transaction cost really does not change; its still a variable fee so markets will keep moving and might even remain volatile. When it gets stable enough, it will also have to remain there for a significant amount of time and meanwhile tons of speculating players could do little else but sit and wait... or launch more and more alt coin concepts to keep moving... which introduces volatility once more.

 Interesting times.



Outback Bronze said:


> Positive news in China: https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cr...at-miners-clean-energy-usage-exceeds-50-in-ch
> 
> Funny how people are saying its banned in China. I'd say the word restricted comes to mind instead.



We could argue every ban is a restriction; the net effect is the same: the regular economy and administration will not want it. Black and grey markets will exist anyway as they always have...


----------



## 1freedude (Jun 18, 2021)

While doing research to see if I can break into Chia plotting and farming, I was told by my finacial advisor that I cannot, per non-compete and securities clauses.  I also found out a real estate title company in our area uses blockchain to prove its work.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 18, 2021)

1freedude said:


> While doing research to see if I can break into Chia plotting and farming, I was told by my finacial advisor that I cannot, per non-compete and securities clauses.  I also found out a real estate title company in our area uses blockchain to prove its work.



Crypto uses blockchain, but blockchain != crypto.  Crypto may stick around, or it may not.  I think it almost certainly will in some form.  But blockchain is for sure here to stay.


----------



## Hardcore Games (Jun 20, 2021)

Given the high cost of computation blockchain does not have any advantages over the conventional SQL database

MySQL is a layer on top of a flat file system and with MySQL it is also open source InnoDB which provides many advanced features


I studied advanced databases and there is more to the world than blockchain


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 20, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> the metric for transaction cost really does not change;


In energy usage hell yes it does.  That is what we were talking about, no?



Hardcore Games said:


> Given the high cost of computation blockchain does not have any advantages over the conventional SQL database


Too easy to forge a centralized sql record, so there's an advantage for blockchain right off the bat.

Blockchain is also not inherently computationally expensive.  It's just a chain of signatures at it's core.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 20, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> In energy usage hell yes it does.  That is what we were talking about,



Its still measured in gwei, right? It might cost less of it.


----------



## Robert Bourgoin (Jun 20, 2021)

Manipulation at it's best.
Polkadot, XRP, Solana, Chainlink, Bitcoin Cash, Theta, Ethereum, SHIB, Dogecoin—this is the list of today’s casualties after the global market capitalization of cryptocurrencies lost $80 billion overnight, dropping from $1.6 trillion to $1.52 trillion.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 20, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Its still measured in gwei, right? It might cost less of it.


Gwei is the ethereum fee for a transaction.  We are talking about real world energy cost per transaction.



Robert Bourgoin said:


> Manipulation at it's best.
> Polkadot, XRP, Solana, Chainlink, Bitcoin Cash, Theta, Ethereum, SHIB, Dogecoin—this is the list of today’s casualties after the global market capitalization of cryptocurrencies lost $80 billion overnight, dropping from $1.6 trillion to $1.52 trillion.


It's only a loss if you sell now.  I'm certainly not counting it as a loss yet.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 20, 2021)

Robert Bourgoin said:


> Manipulation at it's best.
> Polkadot, XRP, Solana, Chainlink, Bitcoin Cash, Theta, Ethereum, SHIB, Dogecoin—this is the list of today’s casualties after the global market capitalization of cryptocurrencies lost $80 billion overnight, dropping from $1.6 trillion to $1.52 trillion.



i am expecting a stock market sell off this monday.. i think crypto is doing the front running being as it trades over the weekend..

trog


----------



## Hardcore Games (Jun 20, 2021)

futures are pointing to more red ink suggesting a rebalancing in the broader market as bond yields bumped up


----------



## trog100 (Jun 21, 2021)

well its monday morning in euroland.. no big sell offs as yet but the US markets have not opened yet.. he he

bitcoin and eth have taken another little dive and gold has gone up a bit.. 

i await the end of the day.. 

trog


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 21, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Gwei is the ethereum fee for a transaction.  *We are talking about real world energy* cost per transaction.


I wasn't. I was talking about the metric used to determine the cost of a transaction. Whether proof-of-work or proof-of-stake, the cost is measured in Gwei. That is what will keep Ethereum afloat as a usable currency to fulfill its smart contracts. Not the real world energy cost - that is just what's behind the cost in Gwei and has many factors that impact it: such as global energy overproduction which is a constant fact that may change in the future as power grids get more dynamic (it is happening even just because of coal shutting down - and it means less waste = higher price for energy as there is less of it), the price per kwh per region, where farms are situated in relation to that, etc etc etc. Note that we're amidst an energy transition here where *higher cost to produce equals better* because less carbon dioxide. All of those factors are margins of order bigger and less elastic than crypto.

Its an important difference I think, because Gwei is effectively an abstraction layer that _could_ be used to dampen market effects, or amplify them. The architects of ETH decide, really, and they will nudge it in a favorable path until they can't do so anymore.

Remember that the end goal is not lower transaction cost, but the idea that the cost is negligible to the end user. Nobody wants to pay more commission than they do towards banks for their services, it directly kills any viability of crypto for its proposed goal for anyone intending to elevate crypto to a real transaction system in the real world. And that, but that's another point of interest, is the final banhammer the fiat currencies truly have, and are actively working at: make payment and transaction so easy and hide the cost so well, that any alternative is not marketable to begin with. You'd think a distributed network could make do with less than banks could, but it hasn't managed to do so, just yet.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 21, 2021)

we have a bot ladies and gents


----------



## the54thvoid (Jun 21, 2021)

Spam removed.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Jun 21, 2021)

trog100 said:


> well its monday morning in euroland.. no big sell offs as yet but the US markets have not opened yet.. he he
> 
> bitcoin and eth have taken another little dive and gold has gone up a bit..
> 
> ...



There's virtually no correlation between Bonds, Stocks, and BTC. That's true in the up direction, as well in the down direction.

Case in point: BTC is down today, but S&P500 is up by 1.5%.


----------



## 64K (Jun 23, 2021)

I was just reading an article about China starting another crackdown on crypto. They seem more serious this time. They are restricting crypto trading as well. I could see this coming since the Chinese Government subsidizes the energy sector and they don't want miners taking advantage of it. It's not illegal to own crypto but that may be next.









						China's Anti-Crypto Crackdown Is Different This Time
					

Miners leaving China show the seriousness of new enforcement. But constrained trading and investment are more likely to really matter.




					www.coindesk.com
				




Meanwhile Bitcoin and Ethereum are up considerably


----------



## trog100 (Jun 23, 2021)

64K said:


> I was just reading an article about China starting another crackdown on crypto. They seem more serious this time. They are restricting crypto trading as well. I could see this coming since the Chinese Government subsidizes the energy sector and they don't want miners taking advantage of it. It's not illegal to own crypto but that may be next.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



long term this is good for crypto.. too much mining concentrated in china was never a good thing..

trog


----------



## The red spirit (Jun 23, 2021)

trog100 said:


> long term this is good for crypto.. too much mining concentrated in china was never a good thing..
> 
> trog


I disagree. Crypto's mission has always been a decentralized currency accessible without government's intervention. And if governments start to ban it, then it loses purpose. It just becomes a government controlled currency just like Chinese Yuan is. It sucks to be Chinese.


----------



## 64K (Jun 26, 2021)

Bitcoin could bottom out at $10,000 to $15,000 according to Scott Minerd
He was bullish at one point and predicted that Bitcoin could go up to $600,000









						Guggenheim’s Scott Minerd Says Bitcoin Could Sink to $15K
					

In February, the now-bearish Minerd said BTC could climb as high as $600,000.




					www.coindesk.com


----------



## Caring1 (Jun 26, 2021)

64K said:


> I was just reading an article about China starting another crackdown on crypto. They seem more serious this time. They are restricting crypto trading as well. I could see this coming since the Chinese Government subsidizes the energy sector and they don't want miners taking advantage of it. It's not illegal to own crypto but that may be next.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Related to that.








						Bitmain Stops Sales of Mining Machines in Bid to Buoy Prices Facing China's Crackdown
					

Delaying further sales could be seen as a way for Bitmain to shield both itself and its clients from falling prices of mining rigs.




					www.coindesk.com


----------



## Chomiq (Jun 29, 2021)

They're moving to Kazachstan:








						China Is No Longer An Option? Crypto Miners Are Moving To Kazakhstan
					

Chinese mining companies are slowly moving their operations to Kazakhstan following the latest crackdown on mining activities by the Chinese government.




					finance.yahoo.com
				





> In a press release yesterday, publicly-listed BIT Mining announced that it had successfully delivered 320 mining machines with a theoretical maximum total hash rate capacity of 18.2 PH/s. The machines would be fully operational in a few days.
> 
> BIT further added that it intends to ship another 2,600 mining machines to Kazakhstan by next week. The mining hardware will have a theoretical maximum total hash rate capacity of 102.3 PH/s. The company had begun investing in Kazakhstan before the ban on cryptocurrency mining activities in China.


Since this was posted a week ago "next week" is now.


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 3, 2021)

Has anybody posted these?









						TSB bans cryptocurrency amid fraud concerns with Binance and Kraken
					

More than five million British banking customers are to be barred from buying cryptocurrencies within days amid concerns that trading platforms are riddled with




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				












						UK bans world's biggest cryptocurrency exchange platform with immediate effect
					

Binance, the world's biggest crypto-currency exchange, has been banned by the UK's financial regulator



					www.mirror.co.uk
				








__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




UK banks and authorities are coming to their senses.


----------



## basco (Jul 3, 2021)

.......coming to their senses........... to keep your\their money\control where they want it to be.


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 3, 2021)

basco said:


> .......coming to their senses........... to keep your\their money\control where they want it to be.


Wouldn't you do the same?


----------



## basco (Jul 3, 2021)

you want control over the people then yes you want freedom then no


----------



## Nash (Jul 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Has anybody posted these?
> 
> UK banks and authorities are coming to their senses.



Binance didn't have a license to operate there, so..


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

basco said:


> you want control over the people then yes you want freedom then no


1. What I want is not the point here.
2. Freedom is a great concept, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't define it. If by freedom you mean random peasants getting rich by building a mining rig and otherwise not working a single second while I still work 40 hours a week to make sure their stuff gets delivered, then my answer is thanks but no tanks. Money (any money) on the individual's level is not a means to be free, but a means to get rich, and that's better left under control.


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 4, 2021)

Another concept of freedom is that every single person can build a mining rig and try to profit, or just buy any digital-coin and make transactions with it or store it... and no authoritarian regime type of Gov can exclude its citizens from this kind of actions because it feels like its loosing the control over them.

Those who create, run and "maintain" the current, full of holes monetary system that its based on debt and inflation, who's main goal is people control, suddenly woke up and want to deliver the world from crypto in the name of global warming and security or whatever... Right!!

Power consumption or any other unfortunate situation like GPU prices is just a temporary face that we must go through. And those who cant see or know the benefits or the concept behind blockchain in general or even in some specific situations its their "problem" -ish. The tech is still in its infancy. Of course not all crypto coins (more than 10,000 currently) are needed or are legitimate and try to help the world going forward...


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> Another concept of freedom is that *every single person can build a mining rig and try to profit, or just buy any digital-coin* and make transactions with it or store it...


...using money that they earned in the current economic system - if they have enough. You need to have a lot of your country's pre-existing currency to buy a decent enough mining rig, or invest into crypto. Of course, if you have a lot of BTC for example, you can use just that to invest, but you have to get there somehow. You can't make something out of nothing. _Let's just disregard the fact that in some countries (the UK being a prime example) your BTC is worthless unless you convert it into the country's prominent currency. _Therefore, the concept of freedom in crypto is essentially flawed, as you first have to be a major player in the current economy to have something to invest into your conversion to crypto. If you're a small fish in your country's economy, you'll be a small fish in crypto as well - helping the big fish to get richer. Only the identity of the big fish changes.



Zach_01 said:


> Power consumption or any other unfortunate situation like GPU prices is just a temporary face that we must go through. And *those who cant see or know the benefits or the concept behind blockchain in general or even in some specific situations its their "problem" -ish*. The tech is still in its infancy. Of course not all crypto coins (more than 10,000 currently) are needed or are legitimate and try to help the world going forward...


Are you saying that crypto is good, and the current economy is bad, and everyone who doesn't want to, or just can't invest into an infinitely more volatile system has only themselves to blame for not seeing the benefits? It sounds a bit like a religious statement, don't you think?

Besides, if everybody becomes a crypto miner, then who's going to work normal jobs? You can't maintain a society where 100% of the workforce is a crypto miner. You can't blame the people who are left behind for reasons such as:
- not being interested in banking, crypto, or other monetary affairs,
- not being tech-oriented enough,
- not having the money for a mining rig (especially in the current GPU market),
- living in an area with relatively high energy prices (the UK again being an example),
- not willing to take the risk of investing into a volatile economic system,
- not feeling the need to change, and so on.

As long as crypto doesn't have an answer for these people, it won't change the world. It will only make a few people richer. You can't change the world by thinking only about your wallet.

Freedom is only great until it starts to limits other people's freedom. An attitude of _"I do what I want, and you can help yourself to the leftovers"_ is not freedom, but arrogance.


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> ...using money that they earned in the current economic system - if they have enough. You need to have a lot of your country's pre-existing currency to buy a decent enough mining rig, or invest into crypto. Of course, if you have a lot of BTC for example, you can use just that to invest, but you have to get there somehow. You can't make something out of nothing. _Let's just disregard the fact that in some countries (the UK being a prime example) your BTC is worthless unless you convert it into the country's prominent currency. _Therefore, the concept of freedom in crypto is essentially flawed, as you first have to be a major player in the current economy to have something to invest into your conversion to crypto. If you're a small fish in your country's economy, you'll be a small fish in crypto as well - helping the big fish to get richer. Only the identity of the big fish changes.
> 
> 
> Are you saying that crypto is good, and the current economy is bad, and everyone who doesn't want to, or just can't invest into an infinitely more volatile system has only themselves to blame for not seeing the benefits? It sounds a bit like a religious statement, don't you think?
> ...


Look again please through my statements. I never said anything to back up your assumptions and conclusions. You took my words and distorted them and make your own assumptions of what I mean and make your self look like the one that its beeing blazed and inveighed against because you dont want to be a part of crypto. Its your right to not want to do anything with it for many reasons.
Its not your right to want it banished or controlled beyond its purpose because you're not willing to take risks, or cant, or dont want to learned anything other than that it (currently) consumes a lot of energy and increases GPU prices.

Current monetary system (which I'm also get paid with) is only working because the debt and inflation is still growing. They keep it like this and all (or most) people think it works just fine and whatever new is unnecessary, only profit opportunistic and nothing more, tool for illegal actions etc etc... Dont be surprised if some day everything/one falls apart, except those who will be prepared for it. I do not mean crypto users but those who are controlling the current system.
I cant tell what we need to do. I dont know what will be tomorrow's system. I dont know the exact outcome of the current situation either.
I can only hope for the best.



AusWolf said:


> ...using money that they earned in the current economic system - if they have enough. You need to have a lot of your country's pre-existing currency to buy a decent enough mining rig, or invest into crypto. Of course, if you have a lot of BTC for example, you can use just that to invest, but you have to get there somehow. You can't make something out of nothing. _Let's just disregard the fact that in some countries (the UK being a prime example) your BTC is worthless unless you convert it into the country's prominent currency. _Therefore, the concept of freedom in crypto is essentially flawed, as you first have to be a major player in the current economy to have something to invest into your conversion to crypto. If you're a small fish in your country's economy, you'll be a small fish in crypto as well - helping the big fish to get richer. Only the identity of the big fish changes.


And I'm into crypto for more than 3 years now. I didnt help any big fish to get richer. i didnt loose any of my initial capital. I took it out and I only count profits now, yes on the current system with $ and €. there is no other way currently.
Can you explain how big fish is taking advantage the small ones? Is it done any differently than on the current investment platforms such as the stock market?


----------



## basco (Jul 4, 2021)

i think i get what ya saying Mr. AusWolf.
i think its a step in the right direction but long away from perfect with its power consumption and so on.

but nobody stopped ya from buying it at 1 dollar and hold it till ya think its time-- same as shares and in this system ya believe, if i got ya right.


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> Look again please through my statements. I never said anything to back up your assumptions and conclusions. You took my words and distorted them and make your own assumptions of what I mean and make your self look like the one that its beeing blazed and inveighed against because you dont want to be a part of crypto. Its your right to not want to do anything with it for many reasons.
> Its not your right to want it banished or controlled beyond its purpose because you're not willing to take risks, or cant, or dont want to learned anything other than that it (currently) consumes a lot of energy and increases GPU prices.


I never put words into your mouth. I was simply trying to understand your statement, the same way you're trying to understand mine.

All I'm saying is, controlling crypto is the sensible thing for banks and authorities to do, and I'm surprised they have taken so long before trying. I believe this is something everybody can understand, whether you agree with it or not.

My personal take is that control isn't always bad. The same way you wouldn't want thieves run on the streets day and night, you also wouldn't want crypto (or any economy) to be a den of scammers and money launderers. I can't see crypto being anything else than a tool to shift wealth from the hands of one group of people into another with the false promise that everybody can get rich, and as such, I can't see how it benefits me. But I've discussed this already, and it's not the topic here.



Zach_01 said:


> Current monetary system (which I'm also get paid with) is only working because the debt and inflation is still growing. They keep it like this and all (or most) people think it works just fine and whatever new is unnecessary, only profit opportunistic and nothing more, tool for illegal actions etc etc... Dont be surprised if some day everything/one falls apart, except those who will be prepared for it. I do not mean crypto users but those who are controlling the current system.
> I cant tell what we need to do. I dont know what will be tomorrow's system. I dont know the exact outcome of the current situation either.
> I can only hope for the best.


Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said I was happy with the current economic system. I just don't think crypto is the right way out for reasons I mentioned above. I don't see economy as a binary choice between traditional vs. crypto. Money is money whether you call it USD, GBP, BTC or whatever.



Zach_01 said:


> And I'm into crypto for more than 3 years now. I didnt help any big fish to get richer. i didnt loose any of my initial capital. I took it out and I only count profits now, yes on the current system with $ and €. there is no other way currently.
> Can you explain how big fish is taking advantage the small ones? Is it done any differently than on the current investment platforms such as the stock market?


Wealth in the hands of the big fish is only worth something in comparison to that of the small fish. If only a handful of people mined crypto and they all had millions, then those millions would ultimately be worth nothing. Similarly, if everybody got paid a million $ a month at work, prices and conversion rates would eventually balance out so your money wouldn't be worth more than it is now. That's inflation. Money isn't simply a number - it's also the percentage of the economic system you own. You're contributing to the wealth of the big fish by being the small fish and keeping the economy alive. You're only swapping between one fish tank and another, figuratively speaking.



basco said:


> i think i get what ya saying Mr. AusWolf.
> i think its a step in the right direction but long away from perfect with its power consumption and so on.
> 
> but nobody stopped ya from buying it at 1 dollar and hold it till ya think its time-- same as shares and in this system ya believe, if i got ya right.


While you buy 1 dollar's worth of crypto to hold, someone else buys a million dollar's worth.  That's how you're not getting rich in either economic system.


----------



## basco (Jul 4, 2021)

for me making 1 dollar to 3000.- is a big win for me and for my situation this is rich.
and being rich in health or family + friends means more then money for me.

we just have 2 very different points of view and thats great. would be boring if we´d all think the same.

and just for example:
musk and bezzos are now trying to get a 5billion dollar contract from tax payers money for going to space. how does that help us all.


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

basco said:


> for me making 1 dollar to 3000.- is a big win for me and for my situation this is rich.


While you make 3,000 dollars by investing 1, someone makes 3,000,000 while investing 1,000 and so on. You have less money than they do, so you invest less and gain less. Of course you can enjoy your profit while you can, but that doesn't mean that the system as a whole has changed.



basco said:


> and being rich in health or family + friends means more then money for me.


Same here.  If you make your family and friends' lives better, you're making the world better. Let the economy and other global horseshit figure itself out.



basco said:


> musk and bezzos are now trying to get a 5billion dollar contract from tax payers money for going to space. how does that help us all.


How is that connected to the current topic?


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> While you make 3,000 dollars by investing 1, someone makes 3,000,000 while investing 1,000 and so on. You have less money than they do, so you invest less and gain less. Of course you can enjoy your profit while you can, but that doesn't mean that the system as a whole has changed.
> 
> 
> Same here.  If you make your family and friends' lives better, you're making the world better. Let the economy and other global horseshit figure itself out.
> ...


Probably it’s not what you meant but you make it look like it is a contest. I don’t need to change the system for having more wealth than others. I want to be able to have a little more than just to live/exist. To be able to help my dear persons. To be able to health care my self or other people I care. To be able to enjoy life a little more If I can. If the system needs a change and why, it’s a separate matter.

I really don’t care if someone else made 3,000,000 out of 1,000 while I made 3,000 out of 1. Me having the 3,000 is better than having 1 and that helps me get through life a little easier.

If me and a big fish both multiply our money x100 times, it does not mean that the cost of things around us like food, cloths, health care, electronics, etc... is automatically costing x100.
Does it?
Can you see my point and the false of what you said?


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 5, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> Probably it’s not what you meant but you make it look like it is a contest. I don’t need to change the system for having more wealth than others. I want to be able to have a little more than just to live/exist. To be able to help my dear persons. To be able to health care my self or other people I care. To be able to enjoy life a little more If I can. If the system needs a change and why, it’s a separate matter.
> 
> I really don’t care if someone else made 3,000,000 out of 1,000 while I made 3,000 out of 1. Me having the 3,000 is better than having 1 and that helps me get through life a little easier.


If you think of it that way, that's fine.  All I'm countering is the arguments saying that crypto is something revolutionary that can save us from the perils of our current economic system.



Zach_01 said:


> If me and a big fish both multiply our money x100 times, it does not mean that the cost of things around us like food, cloths, health care, electronics, etc... is automatically costing x100.
> Does it?
> Can you see my point and the false of what you said?


Not currently, because the crypto economy is small enough not to play a major role. If crypto was widely accepted as a means of payment, and everybody used it in abundance (which is what some people seem to want), then it would eventually drive prices up. You can see it happen in the traditional economy as minimum wages and prices go up at a relatively similar rate.


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 5, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> If you think of it that way, that's fine.  All I'm countering is the arguments saying that crypto is something revolutionary that can save us from the perils of our current economic system.


Well I do think also that it is something revolutionary but not ready to replace anything yet. As I said its in its infancy. And that is also driven by the thought of blockchain tech is something way more than just an algorithm or data that can hold value. It can be a tool in the hands of many for a lot of things.



AusWolf said:


> Not currently, because the crypto economy is small enough not to play a major role. If crypto was widely accepted as a means of payment, and everybody used it in abundance (which is what some people seem to want), then it would eventually drive prices up. You can see it happen in the traditional economy as minimum wages and prices go up at a relatively similar rate.


FIAT currency is used in abundance. Does this mean that I need to stop asking my boss for salary raise (at least the inflation rate) so I dont drive prices and costs up?
Or the salary raise (at least the inflation rate) is necessary because the (current) system works with inflation, drives costs and prices up, and renders people's buying power lesser and lesser every single year?

Debt and inflation is the base factors of our current monetary system. Its not out of the world for people to seek/want something else that is not working like this. Those at least that understand that the current situation is hanging by a thread. A thread in the hands of regulators of this world.


----------



## AusWolf (Jul 5, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> Well I do think also that it is something revolutionary but not ready to replace anything yet. As I said its in its infancy. And that is also driven by the thought of blockchain tech is something way more than just an algorithm or data that can hold value. It can be a tool in the hands of many for a lot of things.


Maybe. Maybe not. I guess we'll have a better idea in about 20-ish years. Personally, I still think it's just money, like everything else. The relevance of being driven by banks and governments, or by the public is questionable imo.



Zach_01 said:


> FIAT currency is used in abundance. Does this mean that I need to stop asking my boss for salary raise (at least the inflation rate) so I dont drive prices and costs up?


That's not what I meant.



Zach_01 said:


> Or the salary raise (at least the inflation rate) is necessary because the (current) system works with inflation, drives costs and prices up, and renders people's buying power lesser and lesser every single year?


That's exactly what I meant. My point is that if crypto was used by everyone, it would work in exactly the same way. Purchasing power is largely determined by the amount of money in circulation.


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 6, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. I guess we'll have a better idea in about 20-ish years. Personally, I still think it's just money, like everything else. The relevance of being driven by banks and governments, or by the public is questionable imo.
> 
> That's exactly what I meant. My point is that if crypto was used by everyone, it would work in exactly the same way. Purchasing power is largely determined by the amount of money in circulation.


Many digital coins are designed against inflation. A lot of them have a finite amount. And certainly they are not just money because most people are lacking knowledge on blockchain.
You maybe right about the couple of decades... It takes time for people to expel pervious ideas as obsolete in a matter with such importance and take a new one. And of course its the big interests also that many times prevent change.


----------



## ppn (Jul 6, 2021)

What does it matter finite or infinite ammount, usually the last coin will take forever to mine on increasing difficulty. And If it is tied to some fiat, it's like printing money, should be illegal.

The only value it holds is for speculation, if it doesn't increase nobody would want it, let alone decrease. And it won't increase forever, actually it can as long the whales can stamp whatever price they want on it by selling and buying to themselves using their own multiple accounts, yeah, i want 30k for 1 coin, great it's a deal i just solt it for 30k to myself, yeah, next i want 40K for it, it's a deal, in all likelyhood if they make 50% of the transactions, 50% of the time it returns back to them, and also receive the fee reward, and so on and so forth. So long as the new comers keep paying the miners this could work.


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 6, 2021)

ppn said:


> What does it matter finite or infinite ammount, usually the last coin will take forever to mine on increasing difficulty. And If it is tied to some fiat, it's like printing money, should be illegal.
> 
> The only value it holds is for speculation, if it doesn't increase nobody would want it, let alone decrease. And it won't increase forever, actually it can as long the whales can stamp whatever price they want on it by selling and buying to themselves using their own multiple accounts, yeah, i want 30k for 1 coin, great it's a deal i just solt it for 30k to myself, yeah, next i want 40K for it, it's a deal, in all likelyhood if they make 50% of the transactions, 50% of the time it returns back to them, and also receive the fee reward, and so on and so forth. So long as the new comers keep paying the miners this could work.


I'm sorry, but you certainly don not know what are you talking about, how things work on crypto, what decentralized mean, probably not know what blockchain is and what it can do on its full potential and how it can gain value and so on...

Not all coins are mineable, not all coins are decentralized/centralized and its not like printing FIAT. Different blockchains can serve different purposes. There is a whole lot more behind the tech and we haven't seen much of it yet.
Anyway, mining will eventually be terminated by code upgrades. At least for some of them. Ethereum is the first of the big ones and its very close to its upgrade.

Dont spread out your false ideas, your psychology (based on herd behavior) assumptions or your shallow understanding of digital coin and blockchain.
People's greatest power is knowledge, and some are fighting to keep it restricted (not you I want to believe) or drown it into a river of lies, with mockery, alleged security issues, and so on...
And this does not apply to crypto only.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jul 8, 2021)

How bad is BTC emissions?









						We Need To Talk About The Climate Problem In Bitcoin Mining
					

The often cited “issue” in Bitcoin is misunderstood and misrepresented.




					bitcoinmagazine.com


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Jul 10, 2021)

basco said:


> musk and bezzos are now trying to get a 5billion dollar contract from tax payers money for going to space. how does that help us all.


Yeah, they get to look down on everyone like they always do, but from a greater height. I guess its been their life-long "assperation".


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 10, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> How bad is BTC emissions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An excellent read, thanks.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jul 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> An excellent read, thanks.



No worries mate


----------



## Chomiq (Jul 15, 2021)

Cambridge data shows Bitcoin mining on the move
					

New analysis shows crypto-mining moving away from China, while Kazakhstan boomed.



					www.bbc.com
				





> China's share of mining fell from 75.5% in September 2019 to 46% in April 2021.





> Researchers found a seasonal movement of mining between Chinese provinces in response, it was suggested, to the availability of hydro-electric power.
> Mining moved from the coal-burning northern province of Xinjiang in the dry season, to the hydro-abundant southern province of Sichuan in the rainy season.
> The researchers noted that "this seasonal migration has materially affected the energy profile of Bitcoin mining in China", adding that it illustrated "the complexity of assessing the environmental effects of mining".


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jul 24, 2021)

In case anybody didn't know. I thought it would be relevant to the thread and its been pretty quiet here lately.



			Amazon is hiring a digital currency and blockchain expert, signaling a growing interest in cryptocurrency


----------



## Caring1 (Aug 11, 2021)

This is going to hurt a bit.



			Poly Network loses $611 million in biggest ever DeFi hack; crypto market keeps chugging along


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 11, 2021)

Was just reading about this: Ethereum Proof of Stake Date: Date + What You Need to Know (exodus.com)

When I saw these energy comparisons inside the link.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 11, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> This is going to hurt a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Poly Network loses $611 million in biggest ever DeFi hack; crypto market keeps chugging along


Nah.  No one outside China used Poly and China is already a nonfactor from it's earlier exit.



Outback Bronze said:


> Was just reading about this: Ethereum Proof of Stake Date: Date + What You Need to Know (exodus.com)
> 
> When I saw these energy comparisons inside the link.
> 
> View attachment 212213


People need to remember this everytime they act like bitcoin singlehandedly caused global warming.


----------



## Chomiq (Aug 25, 2021)

Was this posted before?









If not, it's worth watching.


----------



## Hardcore Games (Aug 25, 2021)

I recall some 1 million mining machines are headed to Canada where power is abundant and cheap

There are lots of operations here so I criticize the ones using video cards frequently

One deal has to do with some Chinese operations wanting to get out of China, others may follow


----------



## glsn (Aug 25, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Nah.  No one outside China used Poly and China is already a nonfactor from it's earlier exit.
> 
> 
> People need to remember this everytime they act like bitcoin singlehandedly caused global warming.


except they don't









people seems to like to ideolize things, shutting their brain off and eating whatever they are told to;

most of politicians/lawmakers are sure good people who are not there only for self interest
musk is sure a good, ethical and corcerned for the ambient right? he also made tesla and paypal except that he didn't


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 26, 2021)

glsn said:


> except they don't


Well duh.



Hardcore Games said:


> I recall some 1 million mining machines are headed to Canada where power is abundant and cheap


It's a helluva lot more than 1 million.  1 million might cover just my home state, Washington.


----------



## Hardcore Games (Aug 26, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Well duh.
> 
> 
> It's a helluva lot more than 1 million.  1 million might cover just my home state, Washington.



I do not cover the sector close outside the impact on the price of video cards
most of the machines I seen are using Ant miners which are inconsequential to video cards


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 26, 2021)

Hardcore Games said:


> I do not cover the sector close outside the impact on the price of video cards
> most of the machines I seen are using Ant miners which are inconsequential to video cards


Direct bitcoin mining is ASIC driven, and all irrelevant to video cards at this point other than using silicon wafers.


----------



## glsn (Aug 26, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Direct bitcoin mining is ASIC driven, and all irrelevant to video cards at this point other than using silicon wafers.


dunno what's up with the discussion
but on gpu eth and raven are still profitable


----------



## P4-630 (Sep 2, 2021)

A new passively cooled mining GPU is born













						NVIDIA CMP 170HX cryptomining card spotted, passive design offering 164 MH/s hash rate - VideoCardz.com
					

CMP 170HX, NVIDIA’s own mining card Most CMP (CryptoMining Processor) cards were based on board partners’ design, but CMP 170HX is an exception. New photos featuring the design have been shared on Zhihu by Codefordl. NVIDIA CMP 170HX, Source: Codefordl Some of our readers might remember that we...




					videocardz.com


----------



## trog100 (Sep 2, 2021)

sounds good.. i doubt it will come cheap though.. 

164 m/hs for 250 watts is good..

trog


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 4, 2021)

Bitcoin: El Salvador divided over legal tender law
					

The country will be the first to recognise the crypto-currency as legal tender from September 7.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 22, 2021)

It was all about energy consumption... until now:








						Bitcoin mining producing tonnes of waste
					

Waste from the cryptocurrency process is similar to that from IT equipment somewhere like the Netherlands.



					www.bbc.com
				




OG article:








						Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem
					

Bitcoin's increasing energy consumption has triggered a passionate debate about the sustainability of the digital currency. And yet, most studies have…




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> It was all about energy consumption... until now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Energy consumption is a nonissue honestly vs other industries.  E-waste is likewise similar to any tech sector.  Not great, but something tech in general needs to work on...  why single out crypto?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Sep 22, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> why single out crypto



Why not? Everybody else does


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 23, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> Why not? Everybody else does


If everyone jumped off a cliff...

...It'd be a facebook trend, no?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Sep 23, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> If everyone jumped off a cliff...
> 
> ...It'd be a facebook trend, no?



Depends if it's a meme : )


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 23, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> Depends if it's a meme : )


Of course it'd be a meme, are you kidding man?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 29, 2021)

The push-pull between crypto as a currency vs. as a tradable commodity is kind of fascinating.  For the first to work (its ostensible purpose), you need stability.  For the latter, *in*stability provides more opportunity for profit.

My knowledge of monetary history is pretty sparse.  Does anybody know if the progression of crypto parallels the establishment of other historical means of exchange?  Paper money, for example, grew more-or-less organically out of people trading stamps as currency.


----------



## Chomiq (Oct 13, 2021)

US leads Bitcoin mining as China ban takes effect
					

Research shows the US taking the top spot for global mining following a crackdown in China.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 16, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> US leads Bitcoin mining as China ban takes effect
> 
> 
> Research shows the US taking the top spot for global mining following a crackdown in China.
> ...


Missed the newspost at TPU I am guessing?


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Oct 22, 2021)

Why the ‘Big Short’ Guys Think Bitcoin Is a Bubble 

They really do raise some good points in this recent article(and I'm sure much of it has been mentioned here already in the past), which is why I say if you haven't gone into crypto early well before the peak of the hype and cashed out enough to at least break even or make a profit, its just a huge risk now. I think they're right in regards to it being just another bubble waiting to pop.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 22, 2021)

MentalAcetylide said:


> Why the ‘Big Short’ Guys Think Bitcoin Is a Bubble
> 
> They really do raise some good points in this recent article(and I'm sure much of it has been mentioned here already in the past), which is why I say if you haven't gone into crypto early well before the peak of the hype and cashed out enough to at least break even or make a profit, its just a huge risk now. I think they're right in regards to it being just another bubble waiting to pop.


I feel we are well beyond that now personally, but who knows.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Oct 22, 2021)

MentalAcetylide said:


> another bubble waiting to pop



Just another one for the Bitcoin Obituaries matey ..

Bitcoin Obituaries - "Bitcoin is Dead" Declared 400+ Times (99bitcoins.com)


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Oct 22, 2021)

Yeah, as much as I despise the idea of crypto-currency, hopefully nobody ends up going bankrupt or anything like that if/when it does crash hard. Wouldn't wish that on anyone.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 22, 2021)

MentalAcetylide said:


> Yeah, as much as I despise the idea of crypto-currency, hopefully nobody ends up going bankrupt or anything like that if/when it does crash hard. Wouldn't wish that on anyone.


There is no way it goes down without thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of bankruptcies at this point.  People just aren't sensible with their money.



Outback Bronze said:


> Just another one for the Bitcoin Obituaries matey ..
> 
> Bitcoin Obituaries - "Bitcoin is Dead" Declared 400+ Times (99bitcoins.com)


I like how that site added a section for the (six now) Chinese "bitcoin bans."


----------



## glsn (Oct 22, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> There is no way it goes down without thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of bankruptcies at this point.  People just aren't sensible with their money.


evergreen

it happens with cryptos, it happens with everything else


----------



## Outback Bronze (Oct 25, 2021)

This Mining operating is going to be powered by 100% renewable energy so please ease up on the BS about how much power BTC uses. 

The network will on strengthen on renewable energy.

Byron Bay becomes the new home of bitcoin mining in Australia (afr.com)


----------



## ShiBDiB (Oct 26, 2021)

Venezuela... hailed by crypto enthusiasts as revolutionary for adopting crypto widely as tender, is now literally selling services/goods for gold..









						Venezuelans Break Off Flakes of Gold to Pay for Meals, Haircuts
					






					www.bloomberg.com
				




Seems crypto isn't helping stem the absurdly fast fall of the bolivar (and economy as a whole).


----------



## Deleted member 202104 (Oct 26, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> Venezuela... hailed by crypto enthusiasts as revolutionary for adopting crypto widely as tender, is now literally selling services/goods for gold..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Venezuela ≠ El Salvador


----------



## ShiBDiB (Oct 26, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> Venezuela ≠ El Salvador



Venezuela also has an official crypto https://www.reuters.com/technology/venezuelas-economy-regresses-crypto-fills-gaps-2021-06-22/

May have overstated how well covered it was (El Salvador definitely got more news)

---

Also ethermine (a large ether pool) has started to discuss the future of staking when PoS is a thing. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1452630312475938833


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 27, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> Venezuela also has an official crypto


Yeah, a garbage, state managed one unlike every other crypto on the market.

The petro was predicted to be a joke at inception.  No one hailed it as revolutionary, like, at all.


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 3, 2021)

Interesting read:








						Revealed: The Cryptoqueen's £13.5m London penthouse
					

The story of cryptocurrency scammer Dr Ruja Ignatova's London flat - and how her purchase was concealed.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 12, 2021)

Just what we need:











Get ready boys, Ryzen 9's are going out of stock.


----------



## The red spirit (Nov 13, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Get ready boys, Ryzen 9's are going out of stock.


Not that there were any in stock to begin with.


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 23, 2021)

Crypto US constitution bidder refunds hit by high fees
					

Investors in an ill-fated scheme to buy the rare US document are being offered refunds with a catch.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2021)

Sweden wants Europe to ban Bitcoin mining
					

Otherwise Paris climate change goals become impossible to meet.




					www.pcgamer.com
				




not much impact to mining in general i would say as the EU isn't exactly a good place to mine, but for small operations this could free a lot of gpus


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 26, 2021)

RIP








						Mr Goxx, the cryptocurrency-trading hamster, dies
					

The rodent famous for his financial portfolio and trading cage died peacefully on Tuesday.



					www.bbc.com
				



It's all up to Gremlins now:


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 30, 2021)

Yakshemash?! Kazahstan is cold, winter is coming, power shortages don't look good, miners relocate:








						Cryptocurrency miners grapple with major energy crunch in Kazakhstan
					

The country’s demand for electricity has risen by eight percent.




					www.theverge.com


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 1, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Yakshemash?! Kazahstan is cold, winter is coming, power shortages don't look good, miners relocate:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, and a lot of those miners are supposed to have relocated from China to Kazakhstan due to the crypto mining ban in China and low cost of electricity in Kazakhstan.
Now they may have to pack up again.


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 7, 2021)

Meanwhile in Australia:



			Crypto investors missing millions after 2 Aussie exchanges collapse
		


More missing millions.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 7, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Get ready boys, Ryzen 9's are going out of stock.





The red spirit said:


> Not that there were any in stock to begin with.


I must've missed the memo, when I got mine on sale recently.


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 7, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I must've missed the memo, when I got mine on sale recently.


Was it limited to amphibians only?


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 7, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Was it limited to amphibians only?


Humans can buy things at newegg I think?

I did not tell them I was a frog.  They did not ask.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Dec 7, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> They did not ask.



Pretty sure you talking "ribbit" gave it away : )


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 7, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> Pretty sure you talking "ribbit" gave it away : )


On the internet, I use a keyboard.  Nobody has to know I'm a frog unless I tell them.

I told you guys.  But that's because I love you.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Dec 7, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> On the internet, I use a keyboard.  Nobody has to know I'm a frog unless I tell them.
> 
> I told you guys.  But that's because I love you.



hmm I wonder how they understood the "ribbit" language then?

You must run a "ribbit" keyboard? ; )


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 7, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> hmm I wonder how they understood the "ribbit" language then?
> 
> You must run a "ribbit" keyboard? ; )


I use a normal keyboard.  Just a lot of jumping.

The Frog God graced me with the english language as punishment for a past transgression.  I don't want to talk about it...


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 8, 2021)

Bitcoin 'founder' wins right to keep billions of dollars
					

A jury decided Craig Wright, who says he created the cryptocurrency, can retain bitcoin worth billions of dollars.



					www.bbc.com
				





> A jury rejected claims that Craig Wright's former business partner was due half of the assets.
> As a result *Mr Wright will retain 1.1m Bitcoin, worth $54bn (£40bn).*
> However *he will pay $100m to the family of Dave Kleiman for intellectual property infringement*.
> The family of Mr Kleiman, a computer security expert who died in 2013, said that the two men had worked together to create and mine the first Bitcoin in existence, and that Mr Wright had stolen it.





> In a statement, lawyers for W&K and Kleiman's estate said they were *"immensely gratified" that the jury awarded the $100m in intellectual property rights*, and help give the Kleimans "their fair share of what Dave helped create."


"I'll be taking $54bn and here's your $100m, now shut up"


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 8, 2021)

He's not bitcoins founder in any established way, just an early miner who claims to be.

Many early miners would be billionaires if they hadn't thrown their wallets out.


----------



## R0H1T (Dec 8, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> The Frog God graced me with the english language as punishment for a past transgression.


Not sharing flies with him/her 



Chomiq said:


> Bitcoin 'founder' wins right to keep billions of dollars
> 
> 
> A jury decided Craig Wright, who says he created the cryptocurrency, can retain bitcoin worth billions of dollars.
> ...


You know that's how capitalism society works, always has & always will!


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 9, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Not sharing flies with him/her


The frog god has transcended flies.  Now he consumes all.

All your lost bitcoin wallets went to the frog god.


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 13, 2021)

Bored Ape NFT accidentally sells for $3,000 instead of $300,000
					

A "fat fingered" typing error seems to have cost an NFT dealer more than $250,000.



					www.bbc.com
				



Whoops.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Dec 13, 2021)

Quck temp-of-the-room check:  Who thinks crypto is:

a) Long-term viable in one of its currently existing forms,
b) Here to stay, but will be implemented via some method that hasn't shown up yet,
c) An inadvertent pyramid scheme that's just waiting to collapse,
d) Some combo of the above,
e) A different take that's not easily summarized in a multiple-choice poll

This might seem like trolling or flame bait, but it's not intended to be.  I think there's room left for good discussion, and it's gotten quiet in here.  Personally, I land on a combo of b) and c), firmly believing that the OG crypto designers were trying to solve a social problem, not realizing the mess it would become along the way.  But the way things stand, it sure doesn't seem like existing crypto has much of a chance of doing what it set out to do.  It's sometimes used as actual currency, but seems more/most often employed as an investment vehicle or GRQ scheme.  With the multiplication of currencies and all of the other stuff around all of this; it's hard to convince myself that it'll resolve in any sane fashion.  The point I'm most skeptical on is that even if crypto makes it, what exactly is it going to solve?  Say we someday track values of [ARBITRARY THING] in BTC instead of USD.  Even if the money supply is fixed (as in "limited", not "repaired"), it doesn't materially change how commerce works or who has money, which in the end is simply a representation of value anyway with no intrinsic value in and of itself.

Please note that I'm a skeptic in general.  I don't necessarily have any conceptual beef with the structure or tech behind crypto, but would love it if the graphics card market could normalize...

EDIT:  spelling/grammar


----------



## RandallFlagg (Dec 13, 2021)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Quck temp-of-the-room check:  Who thinks crypto is:
> 
> a) Long-term viable in one of its currently existing forms,
> b) Here to stay, but will be implemented via some method that hasn't shown up yet,
> ...



b - It's the future of all government issued currencies.  All current crypto will become worthless.

Crypto / blockchain is a database, it tracks every transaction every 'coin' has ever been in.   Once the politicians fully understand this, they and hence government will use it.   They'll also get rid of the crypto where they can't identify the users.  China is already doing both.


----------



## trog100 (Dec 14, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> b - It's the future of all government issued currencies.  All current crypto will become worthless.
> 
> Crypto / blockchain is a database, it tracks every transaction every 'coin' has ever been in.   Once the politicians fully understand this, they and hence government will use it.   They'll also get rid of the crypto where they can't identify the users.  China is already doing both.



a totalitarian dream.. based on the principle that those being governed will have all their freedoms taken away by those doing the governing if allowed to..

all tied in with a social contract that rewards obedient citizens and punishes bad ones.. you will own nothing and be happy.. he he..

maybe.. but i wont be around to see it..

i vote A but B is a possibility..

trog


----------



## Bomby569 (Dec 14, 2021)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Quck temp-of-the-room check:  Who thinks crypto is:
> 
> a) Long-term viable in one of its currently existing forms,
> b) Here to stay, but will be implemented via some method that hasn't shown up yet,
> ...



Option d)

I think it will be the future in a completely different implementation method (technological and practical). As it is today it absolutely is a pyramid scheme, it's only value is new money getting in. You need to recruit new money for you to make money.
I can't excuse the waiste of electricity, especially in 2021 and with the problems we have of climate change.

It'a a shame because it's a great idea plagued with bad impletementation issues.


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 14, 2021)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Quck temp-of-the-room check:  Who thinks crypto is:
> 
> a) Long-term viable in one of its currently existing forms,
> b) Here to stay, but will be implemented via some method that hasn't shown up yet,
> ...











						U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold crypto assets - FDIC chairman
					

A top U.S. bank regulator said U.S. officials are looking to provide a clearer path for banks and their clients that are looking to hold cryptocurrencies, in order to keep control over the fast-developing asset.




					www.reuters.com
				





> That could include clearer rules over holding cryptocurrency in custody to facilitate client trading, using them as collateral for loans, or even holding them on their balance sheets like more traditional assets.


https://markets.businessinsider.com...s--says-blockchain-is-more-important-10829640


> Additionally, Solomon adds that bitcoin is not the key thing in this scenario. Rather the focus should be on how blockchain can aid in accelerating digitalization in the financial services sector.


Once big boys secured enough BTC and other cryptos (while telling everyone else not to invest in it) they can start talking about "accepting" crypto.


----------



## Bomby569 (Dec 14, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold crypto assets - FDIC chairman
> 
> 
> A top U.S. bank regulator said U.S. officials are looking to provide a clearer path for banks and their clients that are looking to hold cryptocurrencies, in order to keep control over the fast-developing asset.
> ...



Banks are heavily controled since the 2008 disaster (at least in Europe), they would have problems dealing with that much volatility in their balance sheets. They could hold a small percentage but nothing major, or they get a bad trimester and they would be in the red not fulfilling all the capital requirement


----------



## Outback Bronze (Dec 14, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> All current crypto will become worthless.



This is why its worth something in its current state. The bank/governments cant take my BTC as its not issued by them. It also has value because of its so called decentralized nature.

But I must admit if they start shutting down miners like they're doing in China then who knows...


----------



## KLiKzg (Dec 14, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold crypto assets - FDIC chairman
> 
> 
> A top U.S. bank regulator said U.S. officials are looking to provide a clearer path for banks and their clients that are looking to hold cryptocurrencies, in order to keep control over the fast-developing asset.
> ...


This would be "the acceptance" of the coins & drive their value up.

& there is a possibility of getting too much equity in the coins, to drive the market by the banks.

Interesting possibilities.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Dec 14, 2021)

trog100 said:


> a totalitarian dream.. based on the principle that those being governed will have all their freedoms taken away by those doing the governing if allowed to..
> 
> all tied in with a social contract that rewards obedient citizens and punishes bad ones.. you will own nothing and be happy.. he he..
> 
> ...



Well, we very nearly had a comptroller of the currency who wrote a paper advocating elimination of private banks, all deposits held in the Federal Reserve, and the use of a national cryptocurrency.   Ten years ago I would have laughed at such an openly autocratic and totalitarian tool being implemented and handed to the government, but many support these ideas today.  It will come to pass I'm sure, as you say I hope I'm not around to see it.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2021)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Quck temp-of-the-room check:  Who thinks crypto is:
> 
> a) Long-term viable in one of its currently existing forms,
> b) Here to stay, but will be implemented via some method that hasn't shown up yet,
> ...


ab.  The versions that exist are here to stay, but will likely be scaled down.  Crypto itself is going to change big though.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 15, 2022)

Another user brought the following to my attention;









						North Korean hackers stole nearly $400 million in crypto last year
					

"Banner year” thanks to skyrocketing cryptocurrency values, vulnerable startups.




					arstechnica.com
				




And wow!


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jan 18, 2022)

So: the recent news about Intel producing a mining ASIC got my brain mulling crypto as a whole again.  Crypto depends on large amounts of compute, currently distributed compute.  There's lots available right now because there's still (some) growth/profit potential for participating in the system, which generally means mining.  So, when difficulty gets too high, when and if value stabilizes and the profit to be gained by participating in the compute pool vanishes and the participants along with it, AND a given currency gains acceptance as a *currency* and not an investment vehicle, where does the computation for chain maintenance come from?  Do participants get a cut of transaction fees?  If so, is it reasonable to expect that will offset the operating cost to the operator?

This question largely pertains to decentralized crypto.  A state-sponsored currency would necessarily have a differently-configured back-end (I'd presume, anyway).


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 18, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> So: the recent news about Intel producing a mining ASIC got my brain mulling crypto as a whole again.  Crypto depends on large amounts of compute, currently distributed compute.  There's lots available right now because there's still (some) growth/profit potential for participating in the system, which generally means mining.  So, when difficulty gets too high, when and if value stabilizes and the profit to be gained by participating in the compute pool vanishes and the participants along with it, AND a given currency gains acceptance as a *currency* and not an investment vehicle, where does the computation for chain maintenance come from?  Do participants get a cut of transaction fees?  If so, is it reasonable to expect that will offset the operating cost to the operator?
> 
> This question largely pertains to decentralized crypto.  A state-sponsored currency would necessarily have a differently-configured back-end (I'd presume, anyway).



Proof of Stake covers that problem by giving compute pool a 'stake' in the transaction management. So quite literally you chip in to maintain the system and you get compensated for it. The amount of grunt will determine the speed of transactions and therefore allow larger stakes. Stake price can increase/decrease (dynamically) to save a network, but its likely transaction cost will rise along with it, etc etc etc. It seems like a workable system, but its going to fight against banks doing their transactions for X cost when and if it finally gets there. And, coins are going to compete with one another too. Consolidation however seems very likely because we want control and reliability over transactions.

At that point its going to likely evolve (devolve?) into a typical commercial affair: who can deliver the service that is demanded at the lowest price and what are the conditions that make up that price.

Looking at banking the last decades, they've come to cost us a lot more over time while they don't offer more in any way shape or form. This is strange, and this is the breathing room crypto might take advantage of to gain leverage over fiat/centralized. A big part of that cost increase in 'using banks' as societies is related to security, which is precisely a problem crypto says it could fix rather effectively.

Thats the optimistic scenario


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jan 18, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Proof of Stake covers that problem by giving compute pool a 'stake' in the transaction management. So quite literally you chip in to maintain the system and you get compensated for it. The amount of grunt will determine the speed of transactions and therefore allow larger stakes. Stake price can increase/decrease (dynamically) to save a network, but its likely transaction cost will rise along with it, etc etc etc. It seems like a workable system, but its going to fight against banks doing their transactions for X cost when and if it finally gets there. And, coins are going to compete with one another too. Consolidation however seems very likely because we want control and reliability over transactions.
> 
> At that point its going to likely evolve (devolve?) into a typical commercial affair: who can deliver the service that is demanded at the lowest price and what are the conditions that make up that price.
> 
> ...



Yeah, optimism seems to be the key factor here.  Wish I could get my bookmarking act together, because somebody around here posted a link to a rather extensive editorial largely built around the Byzantine general problem, and why NFTs and crypto haven't solved and can't solve it.  The gist I got was once you're on proof of stake, an entity that can manage a majority stake has an opportunity to compromise the chain.  Now, this is extremely difficult to do by design, but supposedly not impossible as claimed.  The final thesis seemed to be that blockchain ownership is still ultimately based on trust in the system, which is fundamentally not different than where we're at now.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 18, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> which is fundamentally not different than where we're at now.


And as such, fundamentally flawed.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jan 19, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> And as such, fundamentally flawed.



That suggests by inference that how we determine ownership at present is also flawed.  That causes the question to become, is blockchain-based proof of ownership _less_ flawed, or at least flawed in ways that are an improvement over what we have now?

I get it, I'm very much of an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it kind of constitution.  But I also recognize that if everyone accepted the way things are(tm), we'd never make any progress.  Clearly there are many who think there's a better way.  I'm still skeptical that blockchain (particularly crypto in its current form) is a better way, but am trying to keep at least a bit of an open mind.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> That suggests by inference that how we determine ownership at present is also flawed.


Oh yes. It wasn't inferred, I was directly addressing it. You want proof? Look no further than the deeply flaw copyright and patent system. Crytocoins in general are but a hop-skip and a jump away from being a rented thing.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> That suggests by inference that how we determine ownership at present is also flawed.  That causes the question to become, is blockchain-based proof of ownership _less_ flawed, or at least flawed in ways that are an improvement over what we have now?
> 
> I get it, I'm very much of an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it kind of constitution.  But I also recognize that if everyone accepted the way things are(tm), we'd never make any progress.  Clearly there are many who think there's a better way.  I'm still skeptical that blockchain (particularly crypto in its current form) is a better way, but am trying to keep at least a bit of an open mind.



I feel much the same way, though I still think its much more likely the tech gets taken over and its just an efficiency option for powers that be.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 21, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> I feel much the same way, though I still think its much more likely the tech gets taken over and its just an efficiency option for powers that be.



That is already happening as far as I am concerned.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jan 21, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> ... its much more likely the tech gets taken over and its just an efficiency option for powers that be.





R-T-B said:


> That is already happening as far as I am concerned.



Could this be elaborated upon? I don't quite follow.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Could this be elaborated upon? I don't quite follow.


Crypto is no longer in the control of anything but the ultrawealthy is all I meant.  Others can use it sure, but they aren't in the drivers seat anymore.  It wasn't always like that.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Could this be elaborated upon? I don't quite follow.


Context: initially, crypto was thought to be the decentralized money dream where it would be a vehicle for total freedom from state-owned/controlled banks. Power to the peepol, the classic, naive story.

But the real argument behind that, is the fact that this happened to those controlled banks:





						FATF-GAFI.ORG - Financial Action Task Force (FATF)
					






					www.fatf-gafi.org
				




Hence the public myth, with a large core of truth to it, that crypto is primarily used to fork money over between criminals or even that groups launch coins to keep a scheme going. We'll never know how deep that rabbit hole goes, or who started digging it, but after the initial ICOs the rest is history. But other than that, the above is the only plausible reason for its timing. That, and floating on the power of internet and its developments, much like how the current web 3.0 idea is a sort of iterative thing coming from web 2.0. As if things always need to escalate further, because human nature, and growth, and all that.

Another theory is just the idea of a better system for 'transactions' that would fit on anything regarding 'data'. At its core the technology is all about data authenticity, and in being authentic, it is trustworthy, and therefore very suitable for finance. The broker gets automated, trust gets automated. But that's really the 'nerd view' on reality, disregarding all factors apart from the technical reality. In the real world... technical realities are there to be bent or just not adhered to until it comes crashing down.

The powers that be taking over in thát context, is really that fiat money invades crypto space and determines the rules once again, and plays the game their own way instead of how the technology was intended or dreamt to be.

Or, the TL DR version of all this crap: Power Corrupts.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 21, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Crypto is no longer in the control of anything but the ultrawealthy is all I meant.  Others can use it sure, but they aren't in the drivers seat anymore.  It wasn't always like that.


And this is why it needed regulation a LONG time ago. Still needs it now, but only to stabilize valuation.


----------



## Chomiq (Jan 31, 2022)

Inside Kazakhstan's giant crypto-mine
					

Kazakhstan is now the world's second biggest crypto-currency mining country, thanks partly to a vast mine in the desert.



					www.bbc.com
				




Bitmain ASICs doing the work.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 31, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Inside Kazakhstan's giant crypto-mine
> 
> 
> Kazakhstan is now the world's second biggest crypto-currency mining country, thanks partly to a vast mine in the desert.
> ...



I saw that and was going to post it. There's a lot of disinfo about mining but what isn't up for debate is the backyard dictator nations making a killing from it (and not caring about the energy costs).


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 1, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> And this is why it needed regulation a LONG time ago. Still needs it now, but only to stabilize valuation.


I'm not convinced there is an answer honestly.  You won't find a tech tool that hasn't been corrupted by man.  Crypto is just one of the worst cases of our generation.  We can ban, regulate, but in many ways the genie is already out of the bottle.  And now, having met humans, he's become our worst nightmare.

I sold my last mining GPU (RTX 2080 Super) to a programmer in france I respect today.  He really needed it to contine development of a graphics mod (he was fighting with an old Kepler GPU), and I offered it to him for half off msrp, like it should be.  Even with shipping and customs he was thilled to get it...  and that's the direct damage crypto has done. Honestly that shouldn't have been a great deal for him with the euro import taxes but given the market, it was almost unbelievable to him. I just couldn't reconcile it anymore.  I helped create this mess at one point, may as well bail one dude out.

I'm officially done with crypto-mining as of today.  Maybe not forever, but as of now there are too many whack-a-doos running the show.  Best let the gpu do something good for the world.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 1, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> and I offered it to him for half off msrp, like it should be. Even with shipping and customs he was thilled to get it...


That's a champion move! Damn decent of you indeed!


R-T-B said:


> but as of now there are too many whack-a-doos running the show.


And that's why I don't muck about with any of it currently. To many screwy over-greedy morons...


----------



## Chomiq (Feb 8, 2022)

Surprise surprise:








						NFT Money Laundering and Wash Trading
					

NFTs were one of the biggest cryptocurrency stories in 2021. Learn more about NFT money laundering and other potential crime in this emerging asset class.




					blog.chainalysis.com


----------



## Bomby569 (Feb 8, 2022)

For money laundring is a must, you'd have to be pretty stupid to still be doing it in fiat. For crimes, like a ransom they can be traced just like fiat. That's my understanding.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Surprise surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just like early crypto.  Money laundering is always big on emerging hard-to-trace standards.


----------



## Bomby569 (Feb 8, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Just like early crypto.  Money laundering is always big on emerging hard-to-trace standards.



NFT's are crypto, it's the exact same technology, there's just a object to represent it intead of a coin


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Feb 8, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> NFT's are crypto, it's the exact same technology, there's just a object to represent it intead of a coin



Almost got the wording correct there.

NFTs are simply a cryptocoin where the max number of coins printed is 1. (Instead of 21-million BTCs printed, you print "one" NFT).


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Feb 8, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Almost got the wording correct there.
> 
> NFTs are simply a cryptocoin where the max number of coins printed is 1. (Instead of 21-million BTCs printed, you print "one" NFT).



Except that the number printed is arbitrary; nothing limits the number of NFTs of something to one.  It can be ten, ten thousand, or whatever.  So pretty much exactly like a coin, only not intended as currency.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> NFT's are crypto, it's the exact same technology, there's just a object to represent it intead of a coin


The markets however are very distinct, which is kind of the point here.



80-watt Hamster said:


> Except that the number printed is arbitrary; nothing limits the number of NFTs of something to one.


You know at the onset what the contract limits it to.  That is not changeable after it is created.

The only practical use I've ever really seen for NFTs is to handle software licensing...  but no one to date has done this that I know of.  Shame, it's like the one thing they'd be good at.


----------



## bpgt64 (Feb 9, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The markets however are very distinct, which is kind of the point here.
> 
> 
> You know at the onset what the contract limits it to.  That is not changeable after it is created.
> ...


There's actually a lot of pretty interesting ways a nfts could be used.  Too bad it's mostly wash-trading, rug pulls and grift.  I actually like the idea of using an NFT for club access or something to that effect...


----------



## the54thvoid (Feb 9, 2022)

The Bitfenix theft from 2016 has been recovered shortly before trial. What was 71 million is now worth 5 billion. Oof.









						Record-high seizure of $4bn in stolen Bitcoin
					

Two suspects allegedly conspired to launder the money after it was stolen by a hacker in 2016.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Feb 9, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> You know at the onset what the contract limits it to.  That is not changeable after it is created.



Am I mistaken in thinking that limit can be any number?


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Am I mistaken in thinking that limit can be any number?


No.  I thought you were implying it could be changed after the fact though.

Technically, there is a limit, but it's down to the limits of floating point and the amount of ethereum in circulation.  It's not a practically applicable one.


----------



## Bomby569 (Feb 9, 2022)

Crypto got the scarcety right but got the volatility wrong. In my opinion it will never be widely used because of the volatility. No one will ever use it daily when you can have 1000$ in your pocket in the morning and 500$ in the evening without spending it.
But there are alternatives that are created to deal with this, those are the ones i am interested the most.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> In my opinion it will never be widely used because of the volatility.


Not as a currency.  But the sad fact is that volatility is being used as a selling point, and because of it, it has more users than ever before.


----------



## Bomby569 (Feb 9, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Not as a currency.  But the sad fact is that volatility is being used as a selling point, and because of it, it has more users than ever before.



Disagree, the selling points is decentralization and privacy (i know not total privacy, but there is no bank in the middle that can alert authorities if transaction is over xxxxx whatever for example). 
Volatility is what destroys it's value

I think you mean scarcity that can create more value. That's not the same as volatility.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Disagree, the selling points is decentralization and privacy (i know not total privacy, but there is no bank in the middle that can alert authorities if transaction is over xxxxx whatever for example).
> Volatility is what destroys it's value


Fun fact:  10% of Americans bought or sold crypto in the last year.

Most of those were doing it as an investment.  That's an all time high.  The volatlity sold it.  Not the decentralization and privacy, the chance to make money.  The fees are too high on most mainstream crypto to use it like that anymore...  it's near useless as a currency outside of select offshoot coins.

I wanted it to be a currency but it's become bigger than it ever was as one.  It's sad, and weird.


----------



## Bomby569 (Feb 9, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Fun fact:  10% of Americans bought or sold crypto in the last year.
> 
> Most of those were doing it as an investment.  That's an all time high.  The volatlity sold it.  Not the decentralization and privacy, the chance to make money.  The fees are too high on most mainstream crypto to use it like that anymore...  it's near useless as a currency outside of select offshoot coins.
> 
> I wanted it to be a currency but it's become bigger than it ever was as one.  It's sad, and weird.



lots of people bought and sold Meta stock, doesn't mean it's a good investment now.
The big coins were good for those that came in early, now people go in and don't realize that even if it gets to 100.000 it doubles the investment and that's it. It won't make anybody a millionaire. That's why they stop going up. It's not unlike any stock. The early investors are the ones getting rich, millionaires and billionaires.

this is just a pyramid scheme and the bottom, past the initial FOMO, will not go to support  the ones in the top anymore


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> lots of people bought and sold Meta stock, doesn't mean it's a good investment now.


I wasn't giving investment advice.  I was just speaking to the numbers.

If you think I'm telling you to buy bitcoin, you read it wrong.  Though I'd hardly rule out it going higher.  People have been saying the BTC pyramid can't grow more since 2016.  It has.  Who knows?


----------



## Bomby569 (Feb 9, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I wasn't giving investment advice.  I was just speaking to the numbers.
> 
> If you think I'm telling you to buy bitcoin, you read it wrong.  Though I'd hardly rule out it going higher.  People have been saying the BTC pyramid can't grow more since 2016.  It has.  Who knows?



and i was just saying those numbers mean nothing, just because 10% bought and sold doesn't mean they made money, knowing how it is doing lately, most certainly lost money.

It can go higher, i have no idea, i already said people that predict bitcoin to 100k or to 1k are just flipping a coin. But that doesn't take anything from the fact that it's a pyramid scheme, it's only value is more people buying in, that's the definition of pyramid scheme. There is no other value associated to it.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Feb 9, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> No.  I thought you were implying it could be changed after the fact though.
> 
> Technically, there is a limit, but it's down to the limits of floating point and the amount of ethereum in circulation.  It's not a practically applicable one.



To be honest, I hadn't realized that quantity was set once and forever, so that's good info.


----------



## Luminescent (Feb 15, 2022)

Hey guys, i don't much about mining but i wonder, how is the profitability looking now and in the future considering electricity bills tripled and continue to grow, at least in europe is getting ridiculously expensive.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 15, 2022)

Luminescent said:


> Hey guys, i don't much about mining but i wonder, how is the profitability looking now and in the future considering electricity bills tripled and continue to grow, at least in europe is getting ridiculously expensive.



not that good but it could improve if the price of etherium goes a fair bit higher.. 

trog


----------



## Chomiq (Feb 15, 2022)

Marketplace suspends most NFT sales, citing 'rampant' fakes and plagiarism
					

The platform which sold an NFT of Jack Dorsey's first tweet for $2.9 million has halted most transactions because people were selling tokens of content that did not belong to them.




					www.reuters.com
				



also








						HMRC seizes NFT for first time in £1.4m fraud case
					

The tax authority says it is the first UK law enforcement body to seize a Non-Fungible Token.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## remixedcat (Feb 16, 2022)

TBH I'm not a fan of crypto bc eco impacts and the fact that only the already rich can get anything out of it and it's the same issues reg currency has. So honestly nothing new. And GPU prices have been way too high as well as other hardware! 

NFTs are a silly lil distraction and gatekeeping for small time artists like me that don't have time for that shit and 300 bucks in gas fees to make an NFT. Plus you basically are only selling a platform to view on not the actual art. It's all fucky.


----------



## Khonjel (Feb 16, 2022)

Luminescent said:


> Hey guys, i don't much about mining but i wonder, how is the profitability looking now and in the future considering electricity bills tripled and continue to grow, at least in europe is getting ridiculously expensive.


If you've got PC(s) lying around with decent GPUs why not. But for god's sake don't invest to buy a GPUs, rig etc. That ship has long sailed. Rather you ought to invest to buy ETH itself while it's down. Although ultimately your decision. Bitcoin and ETH were down for years until they ballooned in price few years ago, starting the recent mining boom. If you invest in ETH, who knows how long it'll go up in value again.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2022)

This happened.








						NY State Assembly Bill A7389C
					

Establishes a moratorium on cryptocurrency mining operations that use proof-of-work authentication methods to validate blockchain transactions; provides that such operations shall be subject to a full generic environmental impact statement review.




					www.nysenate.gov
				



New York seems to be wanting to pass a bill banning mining based on fossil fuels, which would effectively ban mining for anyone no running their system from solar.
I hope the entire nation does this.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah yes, so only the wealthy will be able to afford to build a large solar array to mine and profit. The rest of us will be banned from mining.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> Ah yes, so only the wealthy will be able to afford to build a large solar array to mine and profit. The rest of us will be banned from mining.


That's not true at all. A solar panel grid for a home can be done for a little as $24k. Then you can get government subsidies. It's actually very affordable for most people. For anyone who owns a home it's a doable task. Either way, the burden on the power grid and tech supply chain would be eased.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's not true at all. A solar panel grid for a home can be done for a little as $24k. Then you can get government subsidies. It's actually very affordable for most people. For anyone who owns a home it's a doable task. Either way, the burden on the power grid and tech supply chain would be eased.



Oh so you only need $24,000 USD *and* own a home. I say just let people run up their electricity bill on useless crypto. They will learn. I am sure many have learned since the crash. Plus, in the grand scheme of things for the state of NY that would reduce probably less than 0.01% of all electricity consumption. If the state government is so worried about fossil fuels they should just get it over with and ban all truck traffic in their state and air traffic. Oh, what's that? The oil and gas lobbyist is on the phone saying they want to give me a massive political donation? BRB.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope the entire world does this!



Easy Rhino said:


> Ah yes, so only the wealthy will be able to afford to build a large solar array to mine and profit. The rest of us will be banned from mining.


Mining has been the game of the rich anyway. You can't earn more than pennies running on a normal home PC.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Mining has been the game of the rich anyway. You can't earn more than pennies running on a normal home PC.


This. Anyone who has the money to do proper mining also likely has the money to go solar.

However, the purpose in this legislation action is to reduce the power grid burden, not limit peoples rights.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This. Anyone who has the money to do proper mining also likely has the money to go solar.
> 
> However, the purpose in this legislation action is to reduce the power grid burden, not limit peoples rights.



If the legislature wants to reduce the power grid burden they should ban electric cars. As usual, government only creates problems. Crypto is such a small portion of electric usage. I agree though companies that are investing in those useless crypto mines should be on something like solar, but I don't believe in forcing them through laws.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> If the legislature wants to reduce the power grid burden they should ban electric cars.



Why not GPU's or women personal pleasure devices or electric shaving machines or toasters, just eat your damn bread raw like a man


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> If the legislature wants to reduce the power grid burden they should ban electric cars. As usual, government only creates problems. Crypto is such a small portion of electric usage. I agree though companies that are investing in those useless crypto mines should be on something like solar, but I don't believe in forcing them through laws.


This is true. Its not a pleasant truth, but the reality is, we are looking at power grid issues in Netherlands right now.

We have some of the highest worldwide densities of both car charging points and locally generated (solar) power from rooftops. Our main issue right now, is that demand and production are not aligned and CANNOT be aligned, which means distribution of energy becomes a problem. To keep the net stable (50hz), what you see now, (if you have a dynamic pricing system behind your solar installation) is that you can actually MAKE money from USING power during peak day time on sunny days. You read that right. It works that way because the net needs to offload excess power somehow.

You can fix this, but it requires a major change in how energy gets distributed, charged, used, and possibly even stored. We're actively looking into salt water batteries and other low-efficiency, but high capacity storage mediums. They're soon going to be economically viable, too.

Shit changes. Legislature though isn't the way to keep doing what you always did - that's just a measure to keep old boys happy and foot the bill to future generations. Change is the only way, you either bend along, or you will eventually break. It works that way wrt fossil fuels, climate, overall lifestyle, politics etc.

But here's another way to use those electric cars. And it's going to happen








						Netherlands to test EV powered VPP to balance its grid - Energy Storage Journal
					

20 September, 2018: A pilot project to test the ability of electric vehicles organized into a virtual power plant to deliver secondary control reserve (aFRR — automatic frequency restoration reserve) in the Netherlands was announced on September 10 by virtual power plant operator Next...




					www.energystoragejournal.com
				






Bomby569 said:


> Why not GPU's or women personal pleasure devices or electric shaving machines or toasters, just eat your damn bread raw like a man


Jest aside... 54~100kW worth of battery versus a triple A battery, gosh I wonder why.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jun 20, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Jest aside... 54~100kW worth of battery versus a triple A battery, gosh I wonder why.



You can't measure things like that. Cars are not the problem, or any particular item, the problem is the use. We should all reduce the usage on the grid for things that aren't essential (especially at peak hours like you said and i agree with all you said). There is a lot of use that could simply be avoided, jokes aside. Keep using fossil fuels in not an option anymore.

Especially now








						‘The situation is serious’: Germany plans to fire up coal plants as Russia throttles gas supplies
					

Germany says it will compensate for a cut in Russian gas supply by increasing the burning of coal — the most carbon-intensive fossil fuel in terms of emissions.




					www.cnbc.com
				




Back to the topic, mining is not an issue. It is if you use coal to power the grid.


----------



## Bones (Jun 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You can't measure things like that. Cars are not the problem, or any particular item, the problem is the use. We should all reduce the usage on the grid for things that aren't essential (especially at peak hours like you said and i agree with all you said). There is a lot of use that could simply be avoided, jokes aside. *Keep using fossil fuels in not an option anymore.*
> 
> Especially now
> 
> ...


It's gonna have to be an option until the infrastructure to fully support EV's across the entire general populace is in place and reliably/fully operational.

If you want an EV, fine but if it doesn't have what it needs to support it, things just won't work.

ATM many places that want EV's are dealing with brownouts, rolling blackouts and so on. With all that going on, the idea of going completely to EV's is ridiculous and a rush to disaster for many, if not the majority with things as they are now.

The rush/push to go full-on EV with everything right now is putting the horse well in front of the cart - There are still years, if not decades of work ahead to make it happen the way it should so once it's all done, it's gonna work for everyone and that's it.

As for other things like Crapto, which is also electrically based, that's going to see some impact as well in regard to how well the grid holds up under all the chargers and miners going at it.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jun 20, 2022)

Bones said:


> The rush/push to go full-on EV with everything right now is putting the horse well in front of the cart - There are still years, if not decades of work ahead to make it happen the way it should so once it's all done, it's gonna work for everyone and that's it.



The planet doesn't have any more years to spare, yesterday it would already be to late.

Back to crypto because i think this will all be moderated.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn't New York gets most of it's electricity from Niagara Falls and Quebec hydro plants?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> If the legislature wants to reduce the power grid burden they should ban electric cars.


While you'd think that logical, it really isn't.


Easy Rhino said:


> As usual, government only creates problems.


Please take off the tin hat..


Easy Rhino said:


> Crypto is such a small portion of electric usage.


It's larger than you think.


Easy Rhino said:


> I agree though companies that are investing in those useless crypto mines should be on something like solar, but I don't believe in forcing them through laws.


If history has taught us anything it's that companies rarely do anything unless it fits their agenda and/or pocket-book. Government needs to force the issue or the needed change will not happen.

EDIT:
I feel your pain. The less government the better. However, with some things, especially where big money and resources are involved, we gotta do what's needed and regulation is what's needed.



kapone32 said:


> Doesn't New York gets most of it's electricity from Niagara Falls and Quebec hydro plants?


Yes, maybe. Not sure. I thought they also had nuclear options, but that could be in the past..


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yes, maybe. Not sure. I thought they also had nuclear options, but that could be in the past..


I think that was after the 3 Mile incident,


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You can't measure things like that. Cars are not the problem, or any particular item, the problem is the use. We should all reduce the usage on the grid for things that aren't essential (especially at peak hours like you said and i agree with all you said). There is a lot of use that could simply be avoided, jokes aside. Keep using fossil fuels in not an option anymore.
> 
> Especially now
> 
> ...



Tis true, and its the whole reason crypto is fighting that reality. I think the word we're looking for isn't so much 'use', but _excess_. We're never going to stop people from living their lives. Acceptance level is zero.

We are born and bred with the idea that we should always want for more. Commerce turns this into a want for more material bullshit, or in the case of crypto, a way to buy material things, at least, if you manage to get the money out again.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> If history has taught us anything it's that companies rarely do anything unless it fits their agenda and/or pocket-book. Government needs to force the issue or the needed change will not happen.
> 
> EDIT:
> I feel your pain. The less government the better. However, with some things, especially where big money and resources are involved, we gotta do what's needed and regulation is what's needed.



Why? What makes you think the people in government are any better than those running the large companies? At least in the USA corporatism is a huge problem.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> Why? What makes you think the people in government are any better than those running the large companies?


As a general rule, many(not all) government officials care about their oaths to serve the people. Companies have no such obligation and many don't care unless they have to.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> As a general rule, many(not all) government officials care about their oaths to serve the people. Companies have no such obligation and many don't care unless they have to.



While I appreciate your response I simply do not agree with your world view regarding government officials. Even if they are not corrupt they are usually inept. Plus everyone has a different opinion of what "serving" the people looks like in today's society. There is so much corruption it is hard to know just who is dumb and who is evil. That is why I think when it comes to crypto people out to feel the pain of their own poor decisions and leave the government out of it. Of course I would probably think differently if I bought into the lie that man is changing the climate to such a degree that we will be all dead soon.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> Of course I would probably think differently if I bought into the lie that man is changing the climate to such a degree that we will be all dead soon.


Not dead but life is already becoming miserable because of Climate Change. Whether we want to believe it or not. The Heat around the World last week or the Washing Machine that has been over Southern Manitoba since May are definite signs that the Weather is in a State of flux. I was reading a report that up to 10 Million people in India have been displaced by the Monsoon. F me Yellowstone Park was closed last week. When is the last time that happened? Meanwhile other places have not seen rain since the start of the decade. I live in Canada and our weather used to be boring until Climate change took hold like in 2013 when a Super warm April melted all of the snow in the Foothills of the Rockies.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> While I appreciate your response I simply do not agree with your world view regarding government officials.


I can respect that. We can agree to disagree on this one.


Easy Rhino said:


> Even if they are not corrupt they are usually inept.


Let's be honest, the same can be said for company officials.


Easy Rhino said:


> Of course I would probably think differently if I bought into the lie that man is changing the climate to such a degree that we will be all dead soon.


As a scientist, I can not deny that we have had an impact. However, to what degree is still open for debate and examination.

Either way, I think the governments of the world and our nation need to enforce regulation to compel miners to be more responsible and less of a burden.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jun 20, 2022)

Let's keep the topic to cryptocurrency please. Climate change is off-topic.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Jul 19, 2022)

On the reddit.com/r/Coinbase subreddit right now... https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/






Given Celsius, Voyager, and other major "cryptobanks" having bankruptcy issues right now, this doesn't look good? Even if Coinbase is fine, they need to keep their systems rock solid otherwise rumors will break out.

Anyone know what's going on exactly? IIRC, Coinbase was doing some kind of weird USD / USDC merger, but I don't know the status of that.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> On the reddit.com/r/Coinbase subreddit right now... https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/
> 
> View attachment 255212
> 
> ...


USD / USDC are still seperate on my coinbase, and I have seen no solvency issues with my crypto on there...  *shrugs*

The coinbase reddit is usually 99% people moaning about their tickets, FWIW.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Jul 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> USD / USDC are still seperate on my coinbase, and I have seen no solvency issues with my crypto on there...  *shrugs*
> 
> The coinbase reddit is usually 99% people moaning about their tickets, FWIW.



This reminded me that I actually have like an 8-year-old account on Coinbase... so I just decided to see for myself and sell a bit of coin. I have almost no coin in Coinbase, but I did have enough to test out "selling" a bit last night.

No issues withdrawing on my end. Really strange to see so many Reddit threads on the subject though...


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> This reminded me that I actually have like an 8-year-old account on Coinbase... so I just decided to see for myself and sell a bit of coin. I have almost no coin in Coinbase, but I did have enough to test out "selling" a bit last night.
> 
> No issues withdrawing on my end. Really strange to see so many Reddit threads on the subject though...


It seems they are all non-US users.  Real weird.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 22, 2022)

This is a thing.








						Cryptomining boom has people’s energy bills skyrocketing; feds mull new rules [Updated]
					

No major US cryptominers said they track energy use impacts on local residents.




					arstechnica.com
				



Governments need to bring some serious regulations. The environment and well-being of the general public is more important than cryptocoin.


----------



## hat (Jul 22, 2022)

They seem to think cryptomining is expanding... guess they didn't hear about the crash and the miners dumping their cards in the second hand market?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 22, 2022)

hat said:


> They seem to think cryptomining is expanding... guess they didn't hear about the crash and the miners dumping their cards in the second hand market?


Actually, some mining groups are expanding on the expectation that the market will recover. And that is causing a resurgence of power usage by mining clusters.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jul 22, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is a thing.



So is this: Sustainable Bitcoin mining power mix hits 59.5%: BTC Mining Council (cointelegraph.com)

It also found that Bitcoin mining accounted for just 0.09% of the 34.8 billion metric tons (BMT) of carbon emissions estimated to be produced globally and consumed just 0.15% of the global energy supply.

Its not accounting for the rest of the crypto market though so...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 22, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> So is this: Sustainable Bitcoin mining power mix hits 59.5%: BTC Mining Council (cointelegraph.com)
> 
> It also found that Bitcoin mining accounted for just 0.09% of the 34.8 billion metric tons (BMT) of carbon emissions estimated to be produced globally and consumed just 0.15% of the global energy supply.
> 
> Its not accounting for the rest of the crypto market though so...


Given the source and how counter intuitive and contradictory it seems, that information is unacceptable until independently verified. So unless mining farms are building solar panel arrays, wind-mill farms or some other energy neutral source(hint, they're not) or buying power from same(possible), it's dubious at best..


----------



## defaultluser (Jul 22, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Given the source and how counter intuitive and contradictory it seems, that information is unacceptable until independently verified. So unless mining farms are building solar panel arrays, wind-mill farms or some other energy neutral source(hint, they're not) or buying power from same(possible), it's dubious at best..




What, you want us to be responsible?  

Hey, look over here: this is Chewbacca .  He's a wookie who lives on Endor.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 25, 2022)

The irony of course being that we have an antiquated and unnecessary infrastructure in banks that could be entirely replaced with distributed crypto systems. And those banks use orders of magnitude more energy than crypto could ever dream about.


----------



## defaultluser (Jul 25, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> The irony of course being that we have an antiquated and unnecessary infrastructure in banks that could be entirely replaced with distributed crypto systems. And those banks use orders of magnitude more energy than crypto could ever dream about.




Says the man who  has never heard of a credit card, or wire transfers.

Tell us again what  crypto does better than either of those?

bank branches are all about dealing with tech support of the money transactions WORLD.  do you honestly think that crypto will be any less complex than the banking system already is?  If you want t exchange coin for any form of currency, you have to  choose a reliable exchange  *(and then don't be pissed when your entire transaction disappears anyway from an exchange with "95% reliability rating)*


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 25, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> And those banks use orders of magnitude more energy than crypto could ever dream about.


Strawman argument. And those banks provide MANY orders of magnitude more services than cryptocoin ever could/will.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jul 27, 2022)

hat said:


> They seem to think cryptomining is expanding... guess they didn't hear about the crash and the miners dumping their cards in the second hand market?



i think they only refer to the US. This is just speculation but with power prices going crazy everywhere and China ban it's not unrealistic to think many may move operations to the US and the low power cost.


----------



## MarsM4N (Jul 29, 2022)

Anyone ever heared of *Ocean Falls/BC Canada*?  Yea, me neither.
_
"Ocean Falls is a community on the Central Coast of British Columbia, Canada. Formerly a large company town] owned by Crown Zellerbach, it is accessible only via boat or seaplane, and is home for a few dozen full-time residents, with the seasonal population upwards of 100."_

So while I was binge watching some UrbEx videos I came across the following video. At 17:34 the explorer shows a building where someone set up a giant bitcoin farm in a former industrial building. It's really in the middle of nowhere. The miner obviously did choose the spot because he gets dirt cheap power from the hydroelectric dam nearby. Man, that's just genious. Sounds like 100% profit.


----------



## Papahyooie (Aug 3, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> Says the man who  has never heard of a credit card, or wire transfers.
> 
> Tell us again what  crypto does better than either of those?
> 
> bank branches are all about dealing with tech support of the money transactions WORLD.  do you honestly think that crypto will be any less complex than the banking system already is?  If you want t exchange coin for any form of currency, you have to  choose a reliable exchange  *(and then don't be pissed when your entire transaction disappears anyway from an exchange with "95% reliability rating)*


Credit cards, wire transfers, all of that currently requires giant office buildings that require lights, air conditioning, etc etc etc. By comparison, crypto is downright green. 

The rest of your post is changing the subject, and I'm personally not interested in debating everything in the world with you.


----------



## defaultluser (Aug 3, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> Credit cards, wire transfers, all of that currently requires giant office buildings that require lights, air conditioning, etc etc etc. By comparison, crypto is downright green.
> 
> The rest of your post is changing the subject, and I'm personally not interested in debating everything in the world with you.




cause you know the  compute farms in multiple countries bitcoin requires are somehow any different?






						Largest Bitcoin Mining Farms in the World | Sunbird DCIM
					

Learn About Other Types of Data Centers Did you there are different types of data centers? Check out more of our data center resources: What is a Data Center? What is a Colocation Data Center? What is an Edge Data Center? Learn How to Increase Data Center Energy Efficiency The data center...




					www.sunbirddcim.com
				




Oh, of course, tiny little distributed operation?

even Etherium pos will still use more  energy than credit card networks;  it gets smoked by several other existing crypto.









						Proof-of-stake: Ethereum 2.0 ranks worst energy consumption
					

Groundbreaking research by University College London has systematically assessed the energy consumptions of leading proof-of-stake networks and concluded not all PoS blockchains are created equal.




					www.yahoo.com
				




Efficiency rankings

Hedera – HBAR
Tezos – XTZ
Polkadot – DOT
Cardano – ADA
Algorand – ALGO
Ethereum 2.0 – ETH 2.0

So, where exactly are we not making massive buildings with massive amounts of AC? 

*Each of our top two cryptos are some of the worst choices you can make (both bitcoin and ethereum suck at making anywhere near the transactions the cc networks make, and the entire crypto world would crash tomorrow without people turning maxed-out ccs into coin as "a great investment!"*


----------



## Papahyooie (Aug 3, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> cause you know the  compute farms in multiple countries bitcoin requires are somehow any different?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Banks require all of that in their data centers, plus all of the people oriented buildings. Offices, hundreds of employees, multiple buildings, towers, branches, etc etc etc. A BTC farming operation requires a few people at most, for the most basic ones. Total power/emissions for just one of the banking systems, all inclusive, absolutely dwarfs the entire crypto space. There's no way around it.


----------



## Bomby569 (Aug 3, 2022)

All over Europe there are restrictions coming to energy use, not sure if this isn't another blow to crypto. Sure, not where most crypto was farmed anyway, but it's still a massive market, for farming and transaction control.


----------



## defaultluser (Aug 3, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> Banks require all of that in their data centers, plus all of the people oriented buildings. Offices, hundreds of employees, multiple buildings, towers, branches, etc etc etc. A BTC farming operation requires a few people at most, for the most basic ones. Total power/emissions for just one of the banking systems, all inclusive, absolutely dwarfs the entire crypto space. There's no way around it.



You need those banks to supply your dollars to purchase Bitcoin directly from an exchange, or a third-party platform like PayPal to do it more directly.

Where exactly do you think the whole crypto revolution would be without easy online transfers or credit card payments?


----------



## Papahyooie (Aug 3, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> You need those banks to supply your dollars to purchase Bitcoin directly from an exchange, or a third-party platform like PayPal to do it more directly.
> 
> Where exactly do you think the whole crypto revolution would be without easy online transfers or credit card payments?



That misses the *entire* point of crypto. The goal is to not transfer between dollars and bitcoins, but to *replace* dollars with bitcoins. 

I'm not going to sit here and explain the entire cryptocurrency 101.


----------



## defaultluser (Aug 3, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> That misses the *entire* point of crypto. The goal is to not transfer between dollars and bitcoins, but to *replace* dollars with bitcoins.
> 
> I'm not going to sit here and explain the entire cryptocurrency 101.


*The entire point of crypto is originally to give folks a way to easily pay for illegal items, ( remember Silk Road, of course now it's noting but virtually-untraceable ransomware payments, and dark web boards for reselling hacked data:









						How Do Cybercriminals Buy and Sell Personal Data on the Dark Web?
					

If private data is so valuable, why don't you actually see it for sale? Where do cybercriminals sell their bounties? Here's what you need to know.




					www.makeuseof.com
				



*
The only folks touting "Dudebro, you should get in ion this crypto yesterday!" are folks who buy the BS, but don't realize they're being manipulated by the mega-rich (*who benefit by being lost in the noise, and can easily hide their assets in all this daily volatility)*

Quit pretending like you know 'the answer (TM)," when you haven't even figured out the question yet, young pad-wan  crypto was just an electronic version of the Commodities Market, except it has no actual enforced  delivery date for jack. or shit.









						Commodity market - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 4, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> The goal is to not transfer between dollars and bitcoins, but to *replace* dollars with bitcoins.



That was maybe the goal about 5 years ago, when Steam started experimenting with BTC payments.

Guess what happened?

1. Bitcoin's 5 transactions per second was insufficient to handle Steam's capacity. Transaction fees skyrocketed to $20+ per transaction, leading to people buying $60 games + $20 bitcoin transaction fees.

2. Those who cut transaction fees below the average $20 at that time had to wait days, possibly weeks, before Steam got the bitcoin.

3. Return handling was complicated. At a minimum, returning a $60 game was done by performing another bitcoin transaction, meaning Steam had to front another $20 bitcoin transaction fee to return the BTC back to the user. There were questions: should you return 0.03BTC (or whatever), or do you return $Dollars ?? I think Steam returned Dollars, proving that the BTC price was too volatile to be used as payment.

4. That was with "normal" issues (transactions and returns). Nothing out of the ordinary yet. Then you account for the fact that 50% of the bitcoins were outright fraudulent, and it was pretty obvious this wasn't going to work.

That was 2016. Over the next years, I have enjoyed BTC enthusiasts explain to me how BTC is a "Store of Value" (woops, price went down), I mean an inflation-hedge (woops, it went down starting in December 2021, far in excess than inflation or USD/EUR and other measurements). And how we have you coming back talking about transactions, because apparently you've forgotten where the BTC arguments were 5 years ago and feel like repeating things.

5 years from now, are you going to be echoing the "store of value" and "inflation hedge" arguments, pretending that I've forgotten about December 2021? There's a reason why the BTC enthusiasts keep changing their argument, because each time we try to use BTC for something (be it transactions, store of value, or inflation hedge), it turns out to be useless at the task. I guess most recently was this "Stablecoin hype", where you use BTC as an 18% yield vehicle, and now Celsius / Voyager is collapsing because of that mistake.

-------------

#3 alone is sufficient to kill BTC as a transaction medium. The fact that I can buy a $60 game and then get a return from that game (and get my $60 back) is only possible because the US Dollar is stable across a 30 day period. BTC never is that stable, no one will be willing to take the pin-risk of BTC's price changing. You either stop doing returns ("all sales fiinal") to mitigate the threat, or force the consumer to have the threat (see Tesla's shitty "Dogecoin" strategy. Price goes up, they return $Dollars to the user on returns. Price goes down, they return Dogecoin).

There's no way around the volatility and purchases/returns. It just leads to a shitty situation for everybody.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 4, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> By comparison, crypto is downright green.


Utter nonsense. Crypto networks use a ton of power and the ratio is no more or less significant than traditional banking. Crypto networks use less right now because they're nowhere near as large as real money and can't compete in raw volume.


----------



## Papahyooie (Aug 4, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> *The entire point of crypto is originally to give folks a way to easily pay for illegal items, ( remember Silk Road, of course now it's noting but virtually-untraceable ransomware payments, and dark web boards for reselling hacked data:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The total amount of illegal trade conducted in US dollars is orders of magnitude higher than bitcoin. Bitcoin just allowed quicker/safer transactions for the criminals. The fact that criminals USE crypto does not mean that is the POINT of crypto any more than it is the POINT of the US dollar. 

And don't call me "young padawan" especially if you can't even spell it correctly. Judging by your writing style, I've been in this game since before you were born. And even if that's not the case, personal attacks aren't allowed here, nor are they useful for the conversation. 



dragontamer5788 said:


> That was maybe the goal about 5 years ago, when Steam started experimenting with BTC payments.
> 
> Guess what happened?
> 
> ...


Perhaps I should have said that is the point of "crypto" instead of "bitcoin." Bitcoin is indeed, an MVP. It's not sufficient in its current form to replace dollars. That says nothing of the concept of crypto in general, which was what I meant to convey. 


lexluthermiester said:


> Utter nonsense. Crypto networks use a ton of power and the ratio is no more or less significant than traditional banking. Crypto networks use less right now because they're nowhere near as large as real money and can't compete in raw volume.


Do the math. Per transaction, crypto uses orders of magnitude less energy when you consider everything that must go into a transaction. No, I won't do the math for you, as judging by your dismissal, you're not interested in actual dialogue. So if I did, you wouldn't accept it anyway.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 4, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> Perhaps I should have said that is the point of "crypto" instead of "bitcoin." Bitcoin is indeed, an MVP. It's not sufficient in its current form to replace dollars. That says nothing of the concept of crypto in general, which was what I meant to convey



There is no cryptocoin that solves the volatility problem.

Problem #3 exists with Etherium, Montero, Doge and whatever else comes about.

The only coins with stability are stablecoins, and it is beginning to look like that is fake stability as Luna/Terra and Iron/Titan went kaput.


----------



## Papahyooie (Aug 4, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> There is no cryptocoin that solves the volatility problem.
> 
> Problem #3 exists with Etherium, Montero, Doge and whatever else comes about.
> 
> The only coins with stability are stablecoins, and it is beginning to look like that is fake stability as Luna/Terra and Iron/Titan went kaput.


Take a look at the world around you... even the US dollar is not immune to volatility. Obviously crypto is MORE volatile, but the thing that fixes that is *adoption*, not technology development. As soon as a crypto exists that is able to be adopted as a currency, and IS adopted as a currency, it will have the clout behind it to become less volatile. Stablecoins are definitely not the answer, I agree.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 4, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> Take a look at the world around you... even the US dollar is not immune to volatility. Obviously crypto is MORE volatile, but the thing that fixes that is *adoption*, not technology development. As soon as a crypto exists that is able to be adopted as a currency, and IS adopted as a currency, it will have the clout behind it to become less volatile. Stablecoins are definitely not the answer, I agree.



The US Dollar changed by 1.4% across June1st to July 1st: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0&output_view=pct_1mth

BTC Changed from $29,xxx to $19,xxx from June 1st to July 1st, a change of 34%

Are you seriously going to keep arguing against me on this point? The volatility on BTC is completely insane, and no cryptocoin seems to have fixed it.



> Obviously crypto is MORE volatile, but the thing that fixes that is *adoption*, not technology development



EDIT: On this point, BTC's transaction rate has been going down since its peak in 2019. https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions

If anything, there's fewer people actually *using* Bitcoin today, than there was in 2019.


----------



## defaultluser (Aug 4, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> The total amount of illegal trade conducted in US dollars is orders of magnitude higher than bitcoin. Bitcoin just allowed quicker/safer transactions for the criminals. The fact that criminals USE crypto does not mean that is the POINT of crypto any more than it is the POINT of the US dollar.
> 
> And don't call me "young padawan" especially if you can't even spell it correctly. Judging by your writing style, I've been in this game since before you were born. And even if that's not the case, personal attacks aren't allowed here, nor are they useful for the conversation.



Why not?  you have yet to make any actual real feedback but your "miracle coin is theoretically more efficient, and will somehow magically  replace USD tomorrow"


Give me just two examples of what the fuck you claim  to be a superior coin to all existing currencies? * the coins I listed earlier (the list of competitors to ETH 2.0) are all way too inefficient to replace USD, and we already know ETH 2.0 is at the bottom of that list.)

You can spout all you want about theoretical crypto, but the market has a habit of choosing crap.  - any idea how to fix that, and introduce new better Miracle Grow Crypto?  Why not start your plan by explaining for the rest of us what exacrly you find so amazing about your chosen two miracle coins that its a given to replace all currency by next week?

Because, if you cant name any potentials, then you're just a heckler with no justification behind the wine*.  I'll happily remove the name calling myself if you can school me on real crypto miracle Grow Coins right here, but I'm betting you're just going to keep heckling me with more empty replies out of the Anti-Crypto-troll handbook*(TM)*


----------



## Papahyooie (Aug 4, 2022)

Man, ya'll are a trip. 

When did I ever say ANY of that? What are you on about a magical coin that will replace USD tomorrow? Did I ever make that claim? @defaultluser 

And when did I claim that bitcoin was going to be adopted @dragontamer? I said that adoption fixes volatility. Bitcoin's adoption rate is not an argument against that statement. 

I don't know why I even come in here. You guys are too rabid to even have a logical conversation. Have fun.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 4, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> I said that adoption fixes volatility



Wouldn't this be relatively easy to prove by looking at 30-day volatility and comparing it with the number of BTC transactions?

I'm looking at these stats, and I'm not seeing volatility getting fixed as BTC's adaptation grew the past 10 years.









						Bitcoin Volatility Index (0.69%) | Bitcoin Volatility Explained (2023 Updated)
					

Bitcoin’s volatility is now surprisingly low and holding steady below the 5% mark since a brief spike in early 2020.



					99bitcoins.com
				




Was BTC mor or less volatile in 2013 or 2017? No.

Clearly, volatility has nothing to do with adoption.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

Guys you gota not attack him so much. I am by no means an expert on any economy although have been running my own business for 10 years now.

Look at what the dollar has done lately. Its caused massive inflated due to copious amounts of money printing.

My rates have gone up considerable because of it, not to mention consumer products, food, rent and the list goes on. My cash is becoming less and less every day. Cash is also a huge tax scam.

China is/has been working on a CBDC for quite some now. Why would they be doing that? Given that, a CBCD would be centralized where crypto atm is decentralized. But how does it work in El Salvador? Does this mean it has been centralized there? I'm unsure as Id like to visit there to see how it works/working.

CBDC:  It’s effectively a way for the central bank to digitalize bank notes and coins in circulation. The Chinese market is already very advanced in cashless payments. The digital yuan would be a way to speed that process up.

It will be legal tender in China and no interest will be paid on it.

“The use of cash is decreasing. Eventually cash will be replaced by something in digital format. That is one of the big drivers behind this,” Yan Xiao, project lead for digital trade at the World Economic Forum, told CNBC.

Fan Yifei, deputy governor of the PBOC, said last year that there is a “pressing need to digitalize cash and coin” as producing and storing these currently is expensive. In an article in state-backed publication Yicai Global, Fan said cash and coins are not easy to use, they’re easy to counterfeit and because of their anonymity, could be used for illicit purposes.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Look at what the dollar has done lately. Its caused massive inflated due to copious amounts of money printing.



That "massive amounts of dollar inflation" was measured at 1.4% in June, while Bitcoin is sitting at 30%+ inflation while cryptocoin supporters are claiming that BTC's way is somehow better.

And guess what? Gasoline has dropped by a whole $1+ in my area. So guess what happened to that inflation this month? A lot of that dollar inflation has gone away and fixed itself in a singular month.

Its ridiculous for one side to be complaining about a 1.4% chance in prices, when their own BTC (and all other cryptocoins) are in excess of 30%+ price changes in a month. Completely, unfathomably ridiculous. Its obvious favoritism and is basically a cult behavior.

Here's what I don't get. Why do you *shit on the dollar* when by all measurements, BTC is doing far, far, far, far, far, far worse? Are you trying to make me remind you how utterly crap the BTC markets have been in the past few months?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> A lot of that dollar inflation has gone away and fixed itself in a singular month.



How do you explain interest rates going up then? So far for us down under its 2% up and not stopping.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> How do you explain interest rates going up then?





			
				Outback Bronze said:
			
		

> Its caused massive inflated due to copious amounts of money printing.



I know you've claimed that you're not an expert in economics. But you really should know, you got economics fundamentally backwards. Interest rates going up removes money and lowers M1 money supply from the world.

If you wanted to increase the money supply, you drop interest rates and/or QE the market.

You're literally pointing out the Fed *removing* dollars from our economy, not printing money. Literally the opposite of your earlier claim.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

Yes I'm no expert in economics, but you are comparing a system that has been around for over two centuries over one that's only been around for just over one decade.



dragontamer5788 said:


> *removing* dollars from our economy,



Will they stop printing?


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> I know you've claimed that you're not an expert in economics. But you really should know, you got economics fundamentally backwards. Interest rates going up removes money and lowers M1 money supply from the world.
> 
> If you wanted to increase the money supply, you drop interest rates and/or QE the market.
> 
> You're literally pointing out the Fed *removing* dollars from our economy, not printing money. Literally the opposite of your earlier claim.



Raising Fed Funds rates does not remove money from the economy.  And actually, around 3%, it will add money.  The Fed increased our M2 money supply by about 40% from 2020 through April of 2022.




Outback Bronze said:


> How do you explain interest rates going up then? So far for us down under its 2% up and not stopping.



You can't talk about one currency vs another without looking at a foreign exchange rate.  The USD has shot up in the past 9 months vs other currencies, that cushioned inflation in the US significantly.  A lot of debt is payable in USD, so that is going to tend to support the USD.  But all those currencies got hit by inflation.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> rates does not remove money from the economy



Yeah, it gets removed from my account instead


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Raising Fed Funds rates does not remove money from the economy.



The effects of interest rate hikes on M1 money supply are well known. If you can't accept this basic fact, I'm not sure if there's much else to discuss. Its rather basic.






						United States Money Supply M1 - November 2022 Data - 1959-2021 Historical
					

Money Supply M1 in the United States decreased to 20099.90 USD Billion in October from 20283.50 USD Billion in September of 2022. Money Supply M1 in the United States averaged 1756.13 USD Billion from 1959 until 2022, reaching an all time high of 20716.10 USD Billion in January of 2022 and a...




					tradingeconomics.com
				




The money supply is already constricting due to the interest rates hikes. We can literally measure it. The opposite, lowering rates, causes the money supply to balloon and grow. We cut rates and grew money supply in 2020 due to COVID19, by dramatic amounts. But today, we're undoing that by constricting the money supply and beginning to return to normalcy.

Like I said earlier, the discussion point brought forward by Outback Bronze is the *opposite* of reality. He's got his argument mixed up. Now if he wants to revise his point now that I've pointed out how to look at, measure, and discuss the money supply, I'd be happy to let him. But these details are important to get right if we're really trying to make a monetary policy discussion.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> The effects of interest rate hikes on M1 money supply are well known. If you can't accept this basic fact, I'm not sure if there's much else to discuss. Its rather basic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What you are talking about is mostly checking/savings deposits.  It has to do with the cash in circulation and is mostly relevant to gauging how much money consumers have on hand to spend.  M2 is more broad and useful. 

I should also throw in here, the Fed is not raising your interest rate.  Consumer Interest rates are based on the 10Y treasury.  Those went up long before the Fed started hiking in the US, and they started dropping in mid June when the first big 0.75% hike was done.  They have in fact dropped 0.9% since then and the Fed has raised its rates 1.5% total.  

You might want to think about why that is working backwards from the way you say.

Having said that, neither M1 nor M2 have much moved and remain massively inflated given the massive increases I noted earlier.  M1 in particular is still 500% higher than in 2020.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> the discussion point brought forward by Outback Bronze



I was only trying to contribute to the argument because I felt you were antagonizing @Papahyooie and he was getting out numbered 2-1



dragontamer5788 said:


> He's got his argument mixed up.



Please teach me on how inflation works then?


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I should also throw in here, the Fed is not raising your interest rate. Consumer Interest rates are based on the 10Y treasury.



My mortgage is literally 2.3% while my 2-year duration Bond funds are yielding 3% right now.

"My" interest rates have definitely changed and I'm changing my behavior because of it. I'm buying up more short-term debt to take advantage of 2% money market and 3% CDs that have sprung up.



> They have in fact dropped 0.9% since then and the Fed has raised its rates 1.5% total.
> 
> You might want to think about why that is working backwards from the way you say.



Because the Eurozone is crap right now and people are fleeing. Sending money to US-debt, pushing 10Y interest rates down.



Outback Bronze said:


> Please teach me on how inflation works then?



Prices go up. For example, a dozen eggs cost .065 mBTC in December 2021, but today they cost 0.125 mBTC.

While there's a variety of reasons for this happening, some of the more important ones are the price of fuel (ex: if it costs more to deliver eggs to your grocery store, their costs will go up). The cost of fuel has skyrocketed (and calmed down a bit...) ever since a large oil-producing nation went to war with another energy-providing nation starting in Feb, 2022.

Or, in the case of BTC, a collapse of historical magnitude happens as it turns out it was a rather bad "inflation hedge", and you probably shouldn't trust what the community promising "BTC is an inflation hedge" has to say about inflation.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> My mortgage is literally 2.3%



Wow lucky you. I have one locked in @ 2.19% (ending in roughly 12 months) and the other has just ballooned to 4.5%


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Wow lucky you. I have one locked in @ 2.19% (ending in roughly 12 months) and the other has just ballooned to 4.5%



Don't worry, its balanced out with all the Euro-bond funds I bought last year. (Ugggghhhhhhh)


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> probably shouldn't trust what the community promising



So am I supposed to trust the government instead who puts the official cash rate up?

Edit: Also a Simple analogy I learnt mainly from BTC was, BTC was buying more of a shopping trolley now (if you bought 3 years ago - 4 year cycles) than my cash is buying now.

My BTC shopping trolley is full where my $$$ of cash the shopping trolley is half empty.

Maybe a bad analogy? Time will tell.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> So am I supposed to trust the government instead by putting the official cash rate up?



Liars here, liars there.

The fact remains that the Fed statistics (such as the M1, M2, etc. etc.) measurements reflect reality. Meanwhile, the investments in say, 3AC or Celsius or Voyager do not.

Perhaps some of these people are less of a liar than you think. And some others are bigger liars than you originally thought.

-------

At the end of the day, the Fed is increasing interest rates, and this has an effect of decreasing M1 and M2, and we can already see the difference it is making. There's a policy debate if this is a worthwhile tradeoff (lowering M1 / M2 has the side effect of making recessions more likely), but the current plan of the Fed is clearly to cut back on inflation more so than the recession fear.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> the Fed



Please remember you a comparing a two century old system vs a decade.

Also, you a comparing a crypto risk management systems and not a fiat one. You do realize there have been billions lost (possible trillions) over global fiat company's that people have invested in?

List of largest corporate profits and losses - Wikipedia

Do I have any valid claims here?


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> My mortgage is literally 2.3% while my 2-year duration Bond funds are yielding 3% right now.



That's actually fairly meaningless.  If you bought bonds at 1% last year, they are yielding 3% now because they are worth a lot less than you paid for them.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> You do realize there have been billions lost (possible trillions) over global fiat company's that people have invested in?



Dude. I literally have a coworker who lost fucking everything in Celsius.

This ain't some theoretical discussion to me. The cryptocoin community fucked his investments.

Fortunately, he's not the worst sob case. He had a fair bit of money in Celsius but he will be fine (he's got some other investments in other places)


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Please remember you a comparing a two century old system vs a decade.
> 
> Also, you a comparing a crypto risk management systems and not a fiat one. You do realize there have been billions lost (possible trillions) over global fiat company's that people have invested in?
> 
> ...



Nice link man now I have something to go look up.

This is impressive.














						BlackRock Is Breaking the Wrong Kind of Records
					

Clients of the world’s largest asset manager lost an unprecedented $1.7 trillion in the first half’s market carnage.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> That's actually fairly meaningless.  If you bought bonds at 1% last year, they are yielding 3% now because they are worth a lot less than you paid for them.



The opposite.

I got a mortgage refinance last year and am now buying more bonds today. I actually was expecting some economic downturn so I have a fair amount in cash.

Bear market plays yo.


----------



## kapone32 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> How do you explain interest rates going up then? So far for us down under its 2% up and not stopping.


There is something going in Europe that is driving up Interest Rates across the "West". Please don't forget about the snarling of supply chain and the rush on products and services when everything reopened.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> There is something going in Europe that is driving up Interest Rates across the "West". Please don't forget about the snarling of supply chain and the rush on products and services when everything reopened.



Interest rates are falling.  Please keep up.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Celsius.



Who the fuck invests in Celsius? This is a very bad idea from a risk asset point of view.

I'm sorry for your mates loss.



RandallFlagg said:


> Nice link man now I have something to go look up.



You serious or being sarcastic?


----------



## kapone32 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Interest rates are falling.  Please keep up.


The Central Bank rates are not falling. Just last week The US and Canada raised rates by another .75%. Just because some things have come down in price does not mean that plenty of things are still way too expensive.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Who the fuck invests in Celsius? This is a very bad idea from a risk asset point of view.
> 
> I'm sorry for your mates loss.



Lol.

You claim to know about BTC but you really don't seem to know how this works at all?

He held BTC in Celsius. It's all gone if you haven't noticed. Just bam, gone.

Now tell me, when was the last time an exchange lost your shares when they still had value?


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> The Central Bank rates are not falling. Just last week The US and Canada raised rates by another .75%. Just because some things have come down in price does not mean that plenty of things are still way too expensive.



Who exactly do you think it is that pays the overnight fed lending rate, and to whom do you think they pay it?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Lol.
> 
> You claim to know about BTC but you really don't seem to know how this works at all?
> 
> ...



LOL, why didn't he buy BTC directly from an exchange. WTF. I sure as hell wouldn't trust no business to hold my BTC. LMAO

I lost shares years ago when the business went bust. BAM Gone


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> LOL, why didn't he buy BTC directly from an exchange. WTF. I sure as hell wouldn't trust no business to hold my BTC. LMAO



The scamsters at these places promised them stuff like 20% APR on their deposits.  I want to feel sorry for these people, but really, I wouldn't trust Bank of America if they told me that much less some bitcoin bank wannabe ponzi ripoff artists - and there are a lot more of those out there.


----------



## kapone32 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Who exactly do you think it is that pays the overnight fed lending rate, and to whom do you think they pay it?


I can only speak for where I live and in Canada the Central Bank has the Mint print the money (Both Government agencies) and then lend's it to the Banks like Royal, TD, CIBC who then sell mortgages, credit cards, car loans and investment loans at a rate above that benchmark. Those rates have not been adjusted in over 27-30 years and regardless of how you may feel a plane full of military class bullet proof vests is expensive to procure, assemble and transport across one of the World's great Oceans.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> The scamsters at these places promised them stuff like 20% APR on their deposits.  I want to feel sorry for these people, but really, I wouldn't trust Bank of America if they told me that much less some bitcoin bank wannabe ponzi ripoff artists - and there are a lot more of those out there.



Well if you've been in crypto for a long enough you'd know this isnt wise.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> LOL, why didn't he buy BTC directly from an exchange. WTF. I sure as hell wouldn't trust no business to hold my BTC. LMAO
> 
> I lost shares years ago when the business went bust. BAM Gone



An exchange like My. Gox?

You know that Coinbase is looking rather shady recently, right? Are you really as safe as you think you are?

Or what, buying overseas untrusted crap like Binance? Who do you use?

You know just as much as I do that all these guys are scammers and frauds.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> An exchange like My. Gox?



Well you seem to be the economics master. Ill let you decide.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> I can only speak for where I live and in Canada the Central Bank has the Mint print the money (Both Government agencies) and then lend's it to the Banks like Royal, TD, CIBC who then sell mortgages, credit cards, car loans and investment loans at a rate above that benchmark. Those rates have not been adjusted in over 27-30 years and regardless of how you may feel a plane full of military class bullet proof vests is expensive to procure, assemble and transport across one of the World's great Oceans.



Well I don't know how Canada does it but for most of the west, every bank must maintain a certain amount of reserves.  The US Fed lowered that in 2020 and has not raised it yet.  

If they lend out so much that they don't have enough reserves, they can overnight borrow from other banks to meet reserve requirements.  The overnight lending rate is what the banks pay to other banks for that loan.  This is simplified but mostly correct.

The Fed sets that overnight lending rate.  Because it costs more to loan overnight, if a bank is low on reserves it will need to charge higher interest for loans to consumers that it lent to when going under reserve requirements.  

Of course, this is assuming they went under reserve requirements and need to do this at all.  If they didn't, then they can lend their excess cash to other banks and get the Fed Fund rate as interest.

Thing is, most banks have a ton of reserves due to the printing press and those M1/M2 numbers.  But we don't have to guess that, we can look - keep in mind minimum reserve requirements were lowered in 2020, so not only have reserves gone way, way, way up - they also aren't required to keep as much.  

So, banks are awash in money basically.  

If you take the 3 charts, M1, M2, and bank reserves, the problem is clear.  The entire system is awash in money.  Not just a little bit, 40% added to M2, 500% on M1, and banks have 200% more reserves than they had in 2019.   

This is why we have so much inflation.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Well if you've been in crypto for a long enough you'd know this isnt wise.



I've been in crypto since Mt. Gox, where I bought my BTC.

EDIT: I've sold off and got my profits from this gig. I'm mostly frustrated at the lack of technical discussions these days and instead of all the (crap) economic principles people would rather talk about. I miss the days where people would talk about new protocols for escrow transfers and other technical achievements. When I realized that the cryptocoin world was more interested in making money (rather than improving the monetary system), I mostly sold off an became a side observer instead. This was around the BTC vs BCH fork if you remember that, where I "woke up" so to speak and realized that the cryptocoin world has become full of greedy assholes rather than technical achievers like from the early days.



Outback Bronze said:


> Well you seem to be the economics master. Ill let you decide.



I did decide. This entire cryptocoin community is shit and you know it. Scammers all around.

You pretend that the BTC protocol has solved the trust issue. The last 10 years show anything but that.

No seriously, do you trust your BTC exchange? Not your wallet not your coins. Coinbase is involved in this staking fee crap, and Binance is connected to Tether . Gemini is also staking coins for high APY. Etc etc. Who the hell do you trust?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> This entire cryptocoin community is shit and you know it



Well, I'm not sure what your doing wrong but I have made nothing but money since I've been involved.

Yes I had to do some initial investments but like I say, BTC is buying me more and more of the shopping trolley than $$$ Dollars.

I see why your so anti crypto. Just because of your miserable experiences, doesn't mean to say that the rest of us have to follow suit.


BTC




CASH




This has been the general experience for me.

Only time will tell if this continues or not.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 5, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> No, I won't do the math for you, as judging by your dismissal, you're not interested in actual dialogue.


You're right about that. I have no interest in attempting civilized dialogue with someone who seems to be missing much in the way of understanding. And I have no desire to teach you either.


Papahyooie said:


> So if I did, you wouldn't accept it anyway.


You're right. I do not ever accept opinions and notions that are without logic and merit.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> EDIT: I've sold off and got my profits from this gig. I'm mostly frustrated at the lack of technical discussions these days and instead of all the (crap) economic principles people would rather talk about. I miss the days where people would talk about new protocols for escrow transfers and other technical achievements. When I realized that the cryptocoin world was more interested in making money (rather than improving the monetary system), I mostly sold off an became a side observer instead. This was around the BTC vs BCH fork if you remember that, where I "woke up" so to speak and realized that the cryptocoin world has become full of greedy assholes rather than technical achievers like from the early days.



Yes that is fair call. I see filth and greed everywhere these days. It makes me sick to the bone. Big corporate businesses (I personally work for) to small ones.

But I must say, I am trying to teach myself to work smarter and not harder. I do not call myself greedy by all means but If I can help my family out in these tough times (prob soon to get worse) then I will.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Well, I'm not sure what your doing wrong but I have made nothing but money since I've been involved.
> 
> Yes I had to do some initial investments but like I say, BTC is buying me more and more of the shopping trolley than $$$ Dollars.



When did I ever say it *didn't* make *me* loads of money? As I stated before: I bought into BTC originally around Mt. Gox. Take a guess how much % gain I got.

The difference is, I can see the shit community for what it is. There's more to life than just making money for yourself personally ya know. The amount of shit I've seen other people get dragged through because of the shear number of scammers.

I can make money but still see the shit, scammy community for what it is. Besides, you still haven't told me who your exchange is, pretending to be high-and-mighty when you know damn well that you shouldn't be trusting them with your BTC either. This is a tech forum, I presume the people around here know how to setup their own wallets and keep the BTC offline / off-exchange personally and avoid situations like Mt. Gox.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> pretending to be high-and-mighty



OMG, where do you get off matey? Gees.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> OMG, where do you get off matey? Gees.



My issue is the *other people* getting suckered into this community of griefing, greedy sociopaths who only want to make money for themselves, and cares nothing about the losses of other members of their own damn community. And your words and arguments only remind me how the typical crypto-bro acts in general. Case in point, your main argument last page is straight-forward victim blaming over my coworker for losing a bunch of money in Celsius. Which is a pretty shitty viewpoint to have IMO. A bit of righteous anger so that I can properly communicate my dissatisfaction with your words is only fair. You're welcome to keep your opinion but I don't have to like it.

Instead of blaming the suckers and marks, you need to start blaming the liars, the grifters, the assholes, the thieves. It is wrong to blame the innocent, it is wrong to defend the thief.

I'm not blaming you per se. I'm blaming the community in general. And I hope you can see that. The morals of the cryptocoin world are completely and utterly wrong. I recognize that you're more or less just posting the standard crypto-bro arguments and talking points and you're probably haven't really thought too deeply about the state of affairs.


----------



## kapone32 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Well I don't know how Canada does it but for most of the west, every bank must maintain a certain amount of reserves.  The US Fed lowered that in 2020 and has not raised it yet.
> 
> If they lend out so much that they don't have enough reserves, they can overnight borrow from other banks to meet reserve requirements.  The overnight lending rate is what the banks pay to other banks for that loan.  This is simplified but mostly correct.
> 
> ...


I hear this argument but again we must put this into context. That injection you are pointing out is from the previous Govt. in America and if nothing else there are plenty of irregularities with that administration.  The chart below is the Fed's historical rate. The unfortunate thing is that has not helped most people so instead of going into the Greater economy it ended up in the wrong places and widened the wealth gap. Instead of inflation what your chart shows me is gentrification. Taking into account that the current Govt. is trying to fix the inequity, infrastructure, fund a conflict (especially this) and officially fight Anarchy, all of that costs money. Let's also keep in mind that the playbook on fighting "Inflation"comes from the Govt that gave us Free Trade and The War on Drugs but also the Iran Contra affair and crack cocaine. If you have lived long enough to remember. We live in a new Age now where digital currency is real because in part of these events.


----------



## the54thvoid (Aug 5, 2022)

Hi folks, can we rein in the commentary on political points please? This is also a general crypto discussion thread, I don't think diversions to *solely* discuss fiat currency are particularly on topic.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> losses of other members



I felt much pity when Terra LUNA went down. His Algo's didn't work and all investors got hit. Who is to blame here? Creators or Investors for playing lotto? 

I was one of the only people who felt sorry for these poor souls when just about everybody else (seen it on this forum) said good riddance to them and crypto as a whole. 

Its a tough gig and all investors have been well warned about crypto, with or without doing their homework. Surely the majority of people are well informed of the risks associated in crypto, as clearly shown.

What upsets me the most about all of this bs is these so called investors will probably never be back in the market which I'm unsure about could potentially hurt the market going forward.

Hell, even musk sold.


----------



## Bomby569 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> I felt much pity when Terra LUNA went down. His Algo's didn't work and all investors got hit. Who is to blame here? Creators or Investors for playing lotto?
> 
> I was one of the only people who felt sorry for these poor souls when just about everybody else (seen it on this forum) said good riddance to them and crypto as a whole.
> 
> ...



When you read about LUNA that thing made no sense at all. It had the problem of assuming people would always be buying it, could never overcome a bad period because of the USD parity. So many countries tried that with spectacularly bad results, just ask Argentina for example.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> I felt much pity when Terra LUNA went down. His Algo's didn't work and all investors got hit. Who is to blame here? Creators or Investors for playing lotto?



The whole thing was a literal repeat of Iron / Titan. So you tell me. Except instead of Titan being supported by 25% of Iron, Terra was 100% supported by Luna. Aka, *it was even more shit than its predecessor*.

Oh right, and the creator of Terra/LUNA made a ton of money from the whole venture. So follow the money. He took a well known, unstable scheme. Hyped it on social media, took their money, and pretended that it wouldn't collapse just like Iron/Titan.

Scammers, grifters, conmen all around. Bonus points, do it in another country so you remain outside the reach of US law enforcement.

At least Celsius / Voyager is US based, we might be able to jail those assholes.

---------

If you're feeling pity with Terra/LUNA but not Celsius, then you're ignorant. Terra/LUNA was a more obvious shitcoin situation than Celsius in my evaluation. Furthermore, the Celsius issue was because Celsius gave their money to 3AC, and 3AC directly invested into Terra/LUNA.

So the Celsius collapse and the Terra/LUNA collapse is one and the same. It doesn't make sense for you to separate them out. When one company loses $300,000,000 to Terra/LUNA, what do you think happens to that company?

This is exactly why I'm telling you to get off your high horse. I'm not even sure if you've been following the news, or tracking why/what is going on in the cryptocoin world right now. Your statements are self-contradictory given the facts on the ground. Again, I ask you, are you *sure* your exchange where you're keeping your cryptocoins is safe? The toxic assets problem from 2007 is repeating itself in the cryptocoin world, and the second order effects of the Terra/Luna crash are only now being discovered.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> but not Celsius



Your putting words into my mouth mate. I did say before I'm sorry for your co workers loss. You need to take a chill pill. Your showing much anger. You need to tame your own dragon.

We all have our own battles to fight. Some lose some win. This is the nature of life.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> I did say before I'm sorry for your co workers loss.



Sure sure. *But you're avoiding my point.*

Are your coins safe? I told you the story in hopes that you've learned the lesson from my friend/coworker's venture into Celsius... as well as my lesson from Mt. Gox. Not your wallet, not your coins. Are you moving your coins to your own hardware wallet now? Or are your coins still dangerously in the hands of some random exchange out there?

You're getting distracted perhaps by some of my rhetoric. So I'll simplify things down for you.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Sure sure. *But you're avoiding my point.*
> 
> Are your coins safe? I told you the story in hopes that you've learned the lesson from my friend/coworker's venture into Celsius... as well as my lesson from Mt. Gox. Not your wallet, not your coins. Are you moving your coins to your own hardware wallet now? Or are your coins still dangerously in the hands of some random exchange out there?
> 
> You're getting distracted perhaps by some of my rhetoric. So I'll simplify things down for you.



I'll just say, I looked at bitcoin \ crypto and ran some mining to play around with at one point.  Decided it was a waste of time because they almost all deposit the coins into some kind of fake 'bank' which I had zero trust in.  

Now sure you can pull it into your personal wallet, but I'd guess that 99% of people participating in crypto don't understand what that means, what's more the exchanges mining groups do all they can to discourage taking control of your crypto through a combination of penalties and obfuscating the process.  It all feels very sketchy and under the table.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Are your coins safe?



I'm well aware of the saying "not your keys, not your coins" so lets leave it at that yeah.


----------



## 95Viper (Aug 5, 2022)

I was going to lock this thread, however, there may be some members who would like to discuss the topic and follow the guidelines.
So, I am leaving it open for the moment.
Follow the guidelines.
Stay on topic.
Be polite (no insults).
Act civil.
Or, the thread may get locked and/or members may be issued warnings/points.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I'll just say, I looked at bitcoin \ crypto and ran some mining to play around with at one point.  Decided it was a waste of time because they almost all deposit the coins into some kind of fake 'bank' which I had zero trust in.
> 
> Now sure you can pull it into your personal wallet, but I'd guess that 99% of people participating in crypto don't understand what that means, what's more the exchanges mining groups do all they can to discourage taking control of your crypto through a combination of penalties and obfuscating the process.  It all feels very sketchy and under the table.



Its not *just* the "fake banks" that bother me. I'm a Computer Engineer and have actually studied a tiny bit of cryptography back in college. I know all sorts of ways that public/private keys can be compromised in a PKI setup. (Seriously: any well-studied Web Developer needs to learn this crap because we do this all the time when setting up that "https" feature on our webservers)

Lets take for example, a hardware wallet. How many people have done security-analysis on the random-number generator? All you gotta do, to steal money from a hardware generator, is have the private-key random-number generator be predictable in a way the creator can predict, but no one else can.

So sure, the hardware wallet can create 10, 20, 1000, or a million "offline" wallets. But all million of those wallets have predictable keys that the backdoor / Trojan company  can then steal your wallet any time they please. Has anyone actually tried to solve this trust problem innate to the offline wallet market? Can anyone prove to me that (first hit on Google: https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-nano-x/) is not backdoored / Trojan Horsed?

No? No one cares to discuss? Its been 10+ years, I'm sure someone else has thought of this problem already. How can the hardware company prove to me, that the hardware / private key generator is not compromised? How do you decentralize trust in these circumstances? Now obviously, I can solve this myself by downloading open source wallet generators, inspecting the code, valuating the generator (they're not a lot of code). Compiling the code myself, creating an offline Linux box and copying the wallet generating code there and setting it up myself. The random number generator can be diceware (I play D&D, I can just roll my own dice to create my own offline wallet, and manually enter that information to generate an offline wallet). 

But I don't think the typical BTC / cryptocoin user takes the kinds of precautions I do. They're just not trained in cryptography like a Computer Engineer is. Now lets say I do this work, how do I, as a trustworthy (tm) Computer Engineer, prove to others that my security audit over a specific set of code was in fact worthwhile and trustworthy? Etc. etc.

These are the hard problems the cryptocoin community needs to discuss and solve. I don't necessarily expect solutions right away, but I want to see *progress over time*, people solving these fundamental issues and making the world a better place. I myself don't have a solution either. I'm just angry at the lack of fundamental progress of the community as a whole.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I'll just say, I looked at bitcoin \ crypto and ran some mining to play around with at one point.  Decided it was a waste of time because they almost all deposit the coins into some kind of fake 'bank' which I had zero trust in.
> 
> Now sure you can pull it into your personal wallet, but I'd guess that 99% of people participating in crypto don't understand what that means, what's more the exchanges mining groups do all they can to discourage taking control of your crypto through a combination of penalties and obfuscating the process.  It all feels very sketchy and under the table.


heh, consider it a "redistribution of wealth". A million or so people with little understanding with a few hundred people who understand how it works walk into a few games of crypto-currency... The few hundred walk out many times richer. 
I think most of the people that made a killing off of crypto were the lone wolf types that did the research and did their own mining separate from mining pools. I'm not sure if my thinking is right, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that individual(s) running some of those mining pools also made a substantial amount of money.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 5, 2022)

MentalAcetylide said:


> heh, consider it a "redistribution of wealth". A million or so people with little understanding with a few hundred people who understand how it works walk into a few games of crypto-currency... The few hundred walk out many times richer.
> I think most of the people that made a killing off of crypto were the lone wolf types that did the research and did their own mining separate from mining pools. I'm not sure if my thinking is right, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that individual(s) running some of those mining pools also made a substantial amount of money.



That has been my impression too.  Most people's idea of research has something to do with twitter or a forum somewhere, which is ludicrous.  I also found that most don't even know what blockchain is.  

Pretty much every person ever that said crypto was anonymous is going to fall into these categories.  Bitcoin is a blockchain technology, and blockchain is a database that records everything and every wallet the coin ever touched.  I have a $5 bill in my wallet that is far, far, far more anonymous than any crypto will ever be.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Pretty much every person ever that said crypto was anonymous is going to fall into these categories. Bitcoin is a blockchain technology, and blockchain is a database that records everything and every wallet the coin ever touched. I have a $5 bill in my wallet that is far, far, far more anonymous than any crypto will ever be.


Anonymous != untracable.

Crypto is in fact anonymous.  It is however very very tracable.  Thus if your anonyminity is ever compromised you are basically "all out there."


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Anonymous != untracable.
> 
> Crypto is in fact anonymous.  It is however very very tracable.  Thus if your anonyminity is ever compromised you are basically "all out there."



I liked the invented term pseudononymous. Its a bit of a play on words. Thereby,  "Pseudononymous" has two interpretations:

* "Pseudo-Anonymous", ie: fake anonymous, but kinda acts like it in some select ways. (Pseudo being the ancient greek word for "false" or "fake").

* "Pseudonym-amous". IE: Entirely based upon pseudonyms that are fully public. But these pseudonyms can be randomly generated.

Both interpretations are correct. So its a nifty pun and good name for the effect of the BTC network. Its not quite anonymous, but its not quite public either. Its pseudononymous.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> I liked the invented term pseudononymous. Its a bit of a play on words. Thereby,  "Pseudononymous" has two interpretations:
> 
> * "Pseudo-Anonymous", ie: fake anonymous, but kinda acts like it in some select ways. (Pseudo being the ancient greek word for "false" or "fake").
> 
> ...


Well I mean you can be fully tracable and still be fully anonymous.  That's basically bitcoin if you use an address with no other data.  No one is really going to connect it to you.

Anything less is on you, not the protocol.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 6, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Well I mean you can be fully tracable and still be fully anonymous.  That's basically bitcoin if you use an address with no other data.  No one is really going to connect it to you.
> 
> Anything less is on you, not the protocol.



Distinctions without differences.  I'll send you a picture of my $5 bill, both sides, and a picture of my wallet.  You tell me where that bill has been, who all ever touched it.  You can't.

Why anyone would want a currency that tracks every single thing that you do with it, and then would buy into the concept of anonymity, is beyond me.  This characteristic of blockchain and crypto that uses blockchain is precisely, exactly, why China is so interested in the technology.  The idea that you can't be tracked down is ludicrous, arrogant in fact, but I think we've had this conversation.

"

Blockchain and Anonymity​Bitcoin works on a blockchain, *which for our purposes is a list of when Bitcoin came into being, where it was used, and by whom.* (It’s actually a little more complicated than that. Read our article on how blockchain works for all the details.)




*RELATED*What Is a "Blockchain"?

*This list, also called a ledger, is public.* *Anybody can see which wallet spent which Bitcoin where. *Although the person who spent the money is hidden behind a bunch of scrambled numbers and letters (One example is “vBMSEYstWetqTFn5Au4m4GFg7xJaN,” although that one’s fake.), their activity isn’t.

_*For example, with the knowledge that your buddy John spent money on a specific service—a VPN, let’s say—on a certain day, you could go to the ledger and see which Bitcoin address spent money on that VPN then. *Even if that search spits out more than one or two addresses, you can check where else money was spent. If one of the addresses that you found made a Wikipedia donation like John regularly does, you have a second data point._

Like with browser fingerprinting, it isn’t one specific data point that gives you away. It’s the whole picture. *With today’s technology, it’s easy to piece all of these little bits together, too, making pseudonymous accounts next to useless when it comes to protecting your identity.*"


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 6, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Distinctions without differences.


Except you know, the differences that exist.  Details matter.



RandallFlagg said:


> Although the person who spent the money is hidden behind a bunch of scrambled numbers and letters (One example is “vBMSEYstWetqTFn5Au4m4GFg7xJaN,” although that one’s fake.), their activity isn’t.


Yeah, that's called anonymity.  By definition.  Traceability is unrelated but probably equally important to a privacy end goal.  (Also that address is decidedly real, but good luck finding it's matching private key).

I'm not claiming bitcoin is a good tool for data privacy or keeping your identity secret. Used improperly it can be quite horrible.  But details matter.



RandallFlagg said:


> This list, also called a ledger, is public.


You say this like it's some kind of big revelation.  Anyone who has been with crypto for a few years knows this.  There are private ledger cryptos but I don't really care for them at all frankly.



RandallFlagg said:


> The idea that you can't be tracked down


Is diffilcult, but not impossible.  Certainly better coins for that though.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 6, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Why anyone would want a currency that tracks every single thing that you do with it



Wouldn't this be perfect for government's to avoid tax scams? I suppose even drug dealers would have a hard time.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Aug 6, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> That has been my impression too.  Most people's idea of research has something to do with twitter or a forum somewhere, which is ludicrous.  I also found that most don't even know what blockchain is.
> 
> Pretty much every person ever that said crypto was anonymous is going to fall into these categories.  Bitcoin is a blockchain technology, and blockchain is a database that records everything and every wallet the coin ever touched.  I have a $5 bill in my wallet that is far, far, far more anonymous than any crypto will ever be.


That is true until they implement something like cash scanners that record the serial numbers on the bills. Stores that have self-checkout already have machines that take bills & scan for their authenticity. Its just a matter of swapping the machines out or upgrading them to read the serials. I wonder how many duplicate bills will show up across the country, heh.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 6, 2022)

MentalAcetylide said:


> That is true until they implement something like cash scanners that record the serial numbers on the bills. Stores that have self-checkout already have machines that take bills & scan for their authenticity. Its just a matter of swapping the machines out or upgrading them to read the serials. I wonder how many duplicate bills will show up across the country, heh.



Maybe if they do, but they still don't know who used the bill or how the person got the bill necessarily.  Now I'm not the kind of person who tries to go anon with cash on all my purchases, but you can if you want.

However, lets say bitcoin became a true 2nd currency.  If my neighbor goes to home depot and buys a lawnmower  with bitcoin and I see them come back with it, I can look and narrow down the possible wallets he has.  I can do this a few more times and then identify his wallet.  Then I can go see every person he has ever interacted with using bitcoin.  If crypto were to become like real money as some want, this would happen, it wouldn't be hard.   

People would probably start making lists of wallet - person relationships.  You may find that some percentage of your bitcoin was used in crime, maybe you weren't involved, but it can be seized.  Keep thinking this through and I think you'll come to the conclusion that crypto is trash.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 6, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Then I can go see every person he has ever interacted with using bitcoin.



Is Facebook any different? Its a public system just like a public ledger. Given, FB you don't need to post where you have been.

A lot of cash/cards get stolen. Here in Australia PayPass is the biggest issue with theft. We have $200 dollar limits now so thieves go around spending $200 in each store as fast as they can or more recently they will just buy a heap of gift cards which is the quickest for them. They can try and exchange it for cash but generally the store will ask for the card (where the money came from) in order to get the refund. I suppose if you find out somebody's debit card pin number they are in real trouble at any ATM.

Now, how do we get around this? Well for one a finger print ID would be nice but how on a credit card? Maybe a small solar panel like a simple solar calculator? Doesn't need to be big but will that drive up the cost of the Credit Card fees from banks? I'm unsure if cash will be able to to any of this.

So what happens when people get their own cash out from the bank. Well, anything goes.

Or what about a blockchain public ledger? Your key is yours. Similar to like a Credit card and still has a finger print ID so cant be handed around. Nobody can use it. You can even pay tradies on site with it. Its attached to you. Unfortunately I'm probably going down the road of a chip that's inserted some where in the body that matches up with it.

Have I missed anything? Probably lots.

We are entering the virtual digital world. Its probably only a matter of time before its starts going mainstream. All you need to do it look at CBCD's the way its heading.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 7, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Is Facebook any different? Its a public system just like a public ledger. Given, FB you don't need to post where you have been.
> 
> A lot of cash/cards get stolen. Here in Australia PayPass is the biggest issue with theft. We have $200 dollar limits now so thieves go around spending $200 in each store as fast as they can or more recently they will just buy a heap of gift cards which is the quickest for them. They can try and exchange it for cash but generally the store will ask for the card (where the money came from) in order to get the refund. I suppose if you find out somebody's debit card pin number they are in real trouble at any ATM.
> 
> ...




Well, I'm not really talking about how easy it is to 'steal'.  That's a different subject.  

Think about the scenario I outlined with a theoretical neighbor using something like bitcoin.  Criminals could use information on a person's habits to blackmail them, time a heist, or simply know when to ransack their house.  Governments could use it for even more nefarious purposes, and employers could too.  

And those records, they *never* go away, it's *part* of the currency itself.  So if you went to a porn shop 5 years ago and paid in bitcoin, there's still a record of that attached to the bitcoin, and as long as that coin exists it will have that record.  The bitcoin itself would have to be deleted, which can't happen. 

If people understood how vulnerable crypto is to privacy invasion, I don't think they'd consider it.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 7, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Well, I'm not really talking about how easy it is to 'steal'. That's a different subject.



Yes true, but you were implying how crypto is trash, where I was simply giving you an instance where "cash" is trash.

You are definitely putting forward some interesting points I agree, but crypto or the current system isn't going to stop any deceitful criminal from ransacking your house.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 7, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Yes true, but you were implying how crypto is trash, where I was simply giving you an instance where "cash" is trash.
> 
> You are definitely putting forward some interesting points I agree, but crypto or the current system isn't going to stop any deceitful criminal from ransacking your house.



It won't stop them but it sure can make it easier.  Say if I live near you, don't know you, but I know your wallet.  Suddenly your wallet has transactions in a nightclub in the Bahamas.  I can probably figure out that you're not home.

But this type of information, can be used for all kinds of purposes.  It would be easy to weaponize in a myriad of ways, whether that is to smear political opponents, get someone fired, ruin a career, destroy a business, or simply time a heist.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 7, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> However, lets say bitcoin became a true 2nd currency. If my neighbor goes to home depot and buys a lawnmower with bitcoin and I see them come back with it, I can look and narrow down the possible wallets he has. I can do this a few more times and then identify his wallet. Then I can go see every person he has ever interacted with using bitcoin.


No, because bitcoin automatically generates a new wallet address for each transaction unless you are doing something to override it.

Look up "change addresses."  This whole idea is pretty far fetched.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 7, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> No, because bitcoin automatically generates a new wallet address for each transaction unless you are doing something to override it.
> 
> Look up "change addresses."  This whole idea is pretty far fetched.



Was going to mention something like this. Could you say its like/similar to a Dynamic IP address?


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 11, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Texas paid this company to mine bitcoin during an ongoing energy crisis
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, Texans are paying 50% more in electricity costs compared to last year.
> ...



Hmmmm...

Grid stability by "turning off your usage of electricity in a predictable fashion" is actually really useful though. The goal is to encourage things like chiller-towers (use Air-conditioning at night to cool a tower of water), and then during the daytime, use the "stored coolness" to provide the "cold" needed to run say... a Hockey Match. By paying companies to "shift the time-usage of electricity", you really do create a more environmentally friendly grid.

It makes sense that BTC-mining would benefit from these laws. I think the "evil" of letting BTC benefit from this is a relatively small concern, because there's too many other legitimate uses of this particular law.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 12, 2022)

Looks like its starting to happen down under.

RBA to Explore CBDC Use Cases in Australia via Research Pilot (blockworks.co)


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 12, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Looks like its starting to happen down under.
> 
> RBA to Explore CBDC Use Cases in Australia via Research Pilot (blockworks.co)


That is a far-cry from being cryptocoin. The only things they have in common is that they are both digital "currency".


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That is a far-cry from being cryptocoin. The only things they have in common is that they are both digital "currency".



Well, I wonder where it stems from matey?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 12, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Well, I wonder where it stems from matey?


What do you mean?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> What do you mean?



I mean CBDC stem from Cryptocurrencies. Also, its a good chance that CBDC's would use Cryptography for wallets. 

Where else am I gona post this? Want me to make a separate thread on CBDC's? I just thought it would be relevant to this thread as a general discussion on digital coins.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 12, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> I mean CBDC stem from Cryptocurrencies. Also, its a good chance that CBDC's would use Cryptography for wallets.


Maybe, but we're not talking about blockchain that is mined. More encrypted tokens that are generated in series. Similar but different process.


Outback Bronze said:


> Where else am I gona post this? Want me to make a separate thread on CBDC's? I just thought it would be relevant to this thread as a general discussion on digital coins.


It's all good, no worries.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Maybe, but we're not talking about blockchain that is mined. More encrypted tokens that are generated in series. Similar but different process.
> 
> It's all good, no worries.



Thanks.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Aug 24, 2022)

Since we have quite a few Australians here, it's interesting to note that Avocado's were a better investment than Bitcoin for the past 3 years (Aus is a major exporter) :


----------



## fiifvdfuh9 (Aug 26, 2022)

Okay so, concerning mining, apart from the classic ways of mining, there's a crypto project WEIcrypto that'll have a service that works like a cash-back. Basically, you'll be able to mine coins just by buying goods using their wallet.  And I'm pretty sure there are other interesting ways of mining coin, without actually putting a lot of effort I'm doing a research of projects that allow alternative mining and it can really be someone's university thesis


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Sep 17, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Bitcoin, Ethereum and a few other crypto tokens (I don't like calling them crypto currencies) have been accepted as valid payment by some merchants although support has fluctuated on and off over the years (Tesla Motors stopped doing this for example).
> 
> The far more interesting aspect has been the blockchain technology itself -- not crypto tokens as an end product.



Replying here, since the other topic was price-discussions.

I never understood what people meant by "blockchain technology". There's multiple aspects to this.

* Merkle Trees are a decades-old structure implemented in SSL / TLS, and serves as the root-of-trust algorithm behind certificate trust. The reason why we can send credit-card numbers online is because the "https" (secure HTTP) protocol encrypts our data and sends it around using this trust. This aspect of "blockchain technology" isn't new at all.

* Miners and validators, are the new part. But seemingly have no use or application.

The issue with public/private key infrastructure is "how do you trust a public key" ?? This is currently "solved" with certificates, which have all sorts of issues. In particular, something needs to be serving the root of all trust, these roots of trusts (called Certificate Authorities) underpin the very security of the internet, and have done so for the last 3+ decades.

Bitcoin/Proof of Work changes the trust root to be the "longest chain". Its a different shaped Merkle tree, but ultimately its benefit is that there's no trust root like a Certificate Authority. There's only the blockchain itself, which needs to be maintained by a collection of computers hashing numbers forever more.

So as you can see, the only "blockchain technology" is the proof-of-work component of this. Hashes, public-key encryption, validation, offloading trust to another number... these cryptographic primitives have existed for decades. Each configuration (HTTPS / TLS / SSL, Kerberos, PGP, GPG, and yes, "Blockchain" / Proof of Work) all have their upsides and downsides. The fact remains simple: most people's cryptographic needs are served by TLS / SSL's model of certificate authorities. Those that aren't are likely served by PGP/GPG's model of email security.

-----

Blockchain / Proof of Work / Proof of Stake, makes an *economic* argument for the root of trust, rather than a mathematical one. 51% attack won't happen, not because its impossible, but because its economically non-viable to do so. Therefore, its a much weaker cryptographic proof / security than the other systems I've talked about, and therefore not really comparable. How much do you really trust the economic argument?


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Merkle Trees are a decades-old structure implemented in SSL / TLS, and serves as the root-of-trust algorithm behind certificate trust. The reason why we can send credit-card numbers online is because the "https" (secure HTTP) protocol encrypts our data and sends it around using this trust. This aspect of "blockchain technology" isn't new at all.


The use of it as a public ledger for things like currency and voting, or anything really of public record, is the new concept.



dragontamer5788 said:


> Miners and validators, are the new part. But seemingly have no use or application.


*sighs*

Not what I meant at all...  was not even talking about mining.



dragontamer5788 said:


> So as you can see, the only "blockchain technology" is the proof-of-work component of this.


Proof Of Stake would like a word.

There are also other proof of * models.  None of them have gained traction really but they exist.  I am interested in Helium networks Proof Of Coverage model.

EDIT:  I just realized my posts I thought I made were in the wrong thread, apologies for any confusion.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The use of it as a public ledger for things like currency and voting, or anything really of public record, is the new concept.



I'm not aware of any voting system being implemented on its own blockchain.

At best, it'd have to be some side-chain activity, like NFTs or whatever, possibly powered by say... Ethereum. And if its powered by Ethereum, all you're doing is introducing vulnerabilities to the proof-of-stake / economic argument. (51% attack suddenly becomes financially viable, because the value of changing votes exceeds that of the underlying blockchain).



R-T-B said:


> Proof Of Stake would like a word.



Its just a different economic model, but also a fundamentally economic one rather than a true cryptographic proof like PGP / GPG / TLS / etc. etc

IE: A cryptographer would say, what if people attacked the system like X? And the cryptocoin defenders simply say "X won't happen because we have economic incentives against that". Which is... one way to continue the discussion, but its insufficient compared to the brutal proofs that typically have been carried in the cryptographic space. IMO anyway.

Blockchain isn't really an experiment with technology, as much as it is a societal experiment. You're hoping that the economic incentives remain aligned for the system to remain functioning. Its a very different kind of "technology", if you'd even call it that.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> I'm not aware of any voting system being implemented on its own blockchain.


Really?  Not to sound like a "do your own research" type...  but google may help you here.  It's been used with some success in third world elections in the last few years.  Also, DAOs are basically run on the voting governance principle.










						Kenyan Electoral Board Designs A Transparent Voting System That Mirrors The Bitcoin Blockchain
					

Kenyans held national elections on Tuesday, September 9, 2022, and the voting system closely mirrored the Bitcoin blockchain.




					www.google.com
				




That's one I was thinking of, though hardly the prime example, as it's really just "inspired by".  There are others I am certain but talk of "the merge" is drowning out my searches.

Of course, this idea has it's own issues:









						New MIT Paper Roundly Rejects Blockchain Voting as Solution to Election Woes
					

An encryption inventor and the head of MIT’s Digital Currency Initiative are among authors of a new paper that points out why blockchain and voting are a bad pairing.




					www.coindesk.com
				




I'm just saying if you think this is all there is, I really really doubt you.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...to-implement-a-transparent-voting-system/amp/



So they mirroed the BTC blockchain, but without any of the BTC miners that protect the BTC blockchain?

So someone who wanted to change the vote could just 51% attack the mirrored, smaller blockchain, with sufficient ASIC investment? That's an even worse idea than I even imagined. That sounds colossally stupid, frankly.

Smaller coins are getting 51% attacked / rug pulled all the time because they don't have the critical mass to reach PoW anymore. BTC works, economically speaking, because its the biggest. The most miners means that the cost of a 51% attack is highest. If you mirror the chain but implement your own miners, then anyone can just 51% attack you by having more miners than your private chain.

--------

No. I don't have knowledge of what happens all around the world. But I have a decent bit of cryptography knowledge, thanks to my college education + work experience (SSL / TLS / etc. etc. Online programming forces us to be good at cryptography primitives these days...). I have a decent nose for what is, or isn't, secure. Probably not as much as a real security expert, but enough to get by with modern programming.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

I'm less concerned with the election argument or more concerned with the point that we are only touching the tip of the iceberg with the possibilities here.

Do yourself a favor and look into the Helium blockchain and the decentralized cell network they are building, as perhaps a more ideal example.  I just know we are in an embryo stage here as far as development potential.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I'm less concerned with the election argument or more concerned with the point that we are only touching the tip of the iceberg with the possibilities here.



NVidia's CUDA was released in 2007. Apple's App store was released in 2008. OpenCL 1.0 was 2009.

"Bitcoin" and "blockchain" in general were invented in the same timeframe (January 2009). As you may know, the tech-world moves fast. Windows 8 was released, and effectively disproven as a concept in 2012. Microsoft Silverlight was 2007. Google Glass was released in 2013. Barnes and Noble's "Nook" reader 2009.

We've had plenty of time to figure out a good use of blockchain. The fact that it keeps getting propped up in seemingly only when interest-rates are near-zero% suggests that whatever good it does, its not much compared to other technologies we've developed since then. That's all I'm saying.

At some point, we need to regard "Blockchain finding a usecase" much like Cold Fusion or self-driving cars: its always "just a few years away", just believe in the technology harder and they'll deliver. Well... its been 14 years. I don't think they've delivered much yet. Entire other projects have been born and have died in this timespan. (Nook, Windows 8, Pebble Smartwatch, Google Glass, etc. etc.)

--------

If a good use of blockchain comes up, we'll adopt it then. But for now, its a solution looking for a problem. Much like Microsoft Kinect, or other interesting technologies. Don't get me wrong, I understand that in this world of technology we have lots of things that need to be invented before we learn how to use them. But... we've given a lot more attention to "blockchain" than many other technologies I had more hope for (augmented reality, Kinect, Silverlight, etc. etc.) at this point.

The only really good thing to come out of it, IMO, is GPU-compute, especially as the blockchain community researched and experimented with a lot of important GPU issues. (Nvidia / AMD of course are behind most of that innovation, but the programmer side of "how to use a GPU effectively" did come from blockchain, among other community members like HPC, Graphics, Video Gamers, and AI). Knowing which GPUs had strong integer / cryptographic performance was helpful for me in my GPU-compute research / experiments (and other communities focused more on double-precision or single-precision).

Will nothing ever come about of this technology? Well, I don't know that. But maybe something cool will be discovered with say, Microsoft Kinect technology, or a cool use of Nook e-readers too. there's a lot of technologies out there, and a singular obession with just one tech is somewhat unhealthy. We need to give enough time for concepts to develop, but also we need to move on and experiment with the other inventions that have been made.

------

Lets put it this way. RISC-V was invented / released in 2010, a year after "Bitcoin/Blockchain". Which concept do you think has a brighter future? RISC-V or Blockchain? Which technology should you focus on as a engineer?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Lets put it this way. RISC-V was invented / released in 2010, a year after "Bitcoin/Blockchain". Which concept do you think has a brighter future? RISC-V or Blockchain? Which technology should you focus on as a engineer?


You can't be serious with that question. RISC-V.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> If a good use of blockchain comes up, we'll adopt it then.


Fair.


----------



## Chomiq (Oct 3, 2022)

Kim Kardashian pays $1.26m over crypto 'pump and dump'
					

Kim Kardashian agrees to pay $1.26m after regulators charge her in EthereumMax case.



					www.bbc.com
				



That's not the type of "pump and dump" you want to be involved with Kim.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 3, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Kim Kardashian pays $1.26m over crypto 'pump and dump'
> 
> 
> Kim Kardashian agrees to pay $1.26m after regulators charge her in EthereumMax case.
> ...


Excellent! RESULT!


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 31, 2022)

This discussion belong here...


The red spirit said:


> If you use MasterCard or Visa card, you pay a fee, it's just already included in product price. And it's not negotiable, you always pay. That's how those companies make money. It's little known fact, but fact nonetheless. Not  to mention that banks themselves have various small fees everywhere and for almost anything, but that's besides the point I was trying to make.


I AM a retailer and no, those fees are NOT worked into the price. Stores pay that fee. Granted not all all. Some places charge a different price for cash vs card. Either way, the fees are small compared to crypto fees.


----------



## The red spirit (Oct 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This discussion belong here...
> 
> I AM a retailer and no, those fees are NOT worked into the price. Stores pay that fee. Granted not all all. Some places charge a different price for cash vs card. Either way, the fees are small compared to crypto fees.


Who cares if they are small, my argument was that they exist and you said no fees.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 31, 2022)

The red spirit said:


> Who cares if they are small, my argument was that they exist and you said no fees.


I said CASH has no fees. Don't misquote me and pay attention to context.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 31, 2022)

My main issue with mastercard and VISA is when their policies effectively become extralegal law because well, you need to accept them or bust as a big business.

And yes, there are cases where the law and the payout policy in a locale differs.  Mostly relating to drug and various pornography laws (with the card policies being the stricter of the two usually) but the point stands.


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 7, 2022)

Stolen $3bn Bitcoin mystery ends with popcorn tin discovery
					

James Zhong pleads guilty to the 2012 hack as police find stash of 50,000 Bitcoin.



					www.bbc.com
				




Is it still crime if you steal from criminals?


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 9, 2022)

Matt Levine has a great post describing the FTT / FTX Token situation. Its a very long post, so I'll cut some stuff out.



> Now let’s add one more crypto element. If you are a crypto exchange, you might issue your own crypto token. FTX issues a token called FTT. The attributes of this token are, like, it entitles you to some discounts and stuff, but the main attribute is that FTX periodically uses a portion of its profits to buy back FTT tokens. This makes FTT _kind of _like _stock _in FTX: The higher FTX’s profits are, the higher the price of FTT will be.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...



I should note that everything until step #4 is kosher and fine-ish. Banks have margin calls to keep the situation in step#4 stable. There's risk if BTC/whatever moves too quickly before you can margin call people, but as long as the banks have sufficient margin they should be able to call in the debt from other customers at the right points and keep the books balanced.

Its step#5, where FTT comes in, that made everything unstable. The long-story short seems to be: FTX no longer has dollars or BTC. It lent them all out for FTT (tokens in itself) (see step#8). By the time we get to the last paragraph, where we learn that Alameda Research is Customer C (and Alameda Research is basically FTX, or at least both are owned by Sam Bankman-Fried). And now we basically have a human-centipede structure where the shit of FTX is being eaten by Alameda Research, and that crap is being eaten by FTX.

TLDR: Maybe Sam Bankman-Fried wasn't a 30-year-old financial genius worth $15 Billion, but instead just a dude who made a complex financial mistake and double-downed on it for the past year. Alas, its time to pay the piper and FTX does not have the finances it needs to continue. Whats going on right now is seemingly the unwinding of all of this "Flywheel" as FTT goes to zero. Its looking like the #3 BTC exchange is going the way of Mt. Gox, everything is seemingly gone.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 13, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Stolen $3bn Bitcoin mystery ends with popcorn tin discovery
> 
> 
> James Zhong pleads guilty to the 2012 hack as police find stash of 50,000 Bitcoin.
> ...


I mean, is that a serious question?  Yes if so.  It just means you're both in trouble.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 13, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I mean, is that a serious question?  Yes if so.  It just means you're both in trouble.


Unless you're reclaiming what was stolen from you in the first place.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 13, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Unless you're reclaiming what was stolen from you in the first place.


Well yeah, there is that caveat of course.  Though I never recomend using "find my iphone" to confront a thief...  not least of all because of what the typical apple user looks like (zing!)


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 16, 2022)

Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself
					

The fallen crypto CEO on what went wrong, why he did what he did, and what lies he told along the way.




					www.vox.com
				




For fucks sake, someone needs to tell SBF he needs to shut up.

That being said, who likes tasty gossip? Cause I got some gossip for ya. Him coming out and basically saying a lot of his personality from a few months ago was a sham / front that he put in front of the media is... a really bad look.

EDIT: I should note that SBF is supposed to be in the Bahamas, but his airplane last landed in Argentina IIRC. This is the time for him to lay low and try to get heat off of himself. Not the time to be conducting hour+ long interviews with journalists. But what do I know? Actually, you know what? Maybe this is for the best. If this dumbass gets himself caught by Interpol or whatever, this is seriously on himself at this point. He's completely delusional and apparently is dumb as a doornail. I don't know the full extent of what he has done (or if it constitutes a crime), but there's well over a million individuals, some of whom are very rich and well connected, that he just pissed off. I don't even know what country he's supposed to run away to, FTX was an international exchange. He probably has enemies lurking behind every corner.


----------



## trickson (Nov 17, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself
> 
> 
> The fallen crypto CEO on what went wrong, why he did what he did, and what lies he told along the way.
> ...


LOL how many got scammed by this scum bag?
I knew this stuff was fake from the gate years ago. 
Now you got played! YES!!! Maybe now we can get our video cards at a low price?

Crypto is a Ponzi scheme!


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Nov 17, 2022)

trickson said:


> LOL how many got scammed by this scum bag?



Lots.



trickson said:


> I knew this stuff was fake from the gate years ago.



Like, what even IS real, man?



trickson said:


> Now you got played! YES!!! Maybe now we can get our video cards at a low price?



Nope.



trickson said:


> Crypto is a Ponzi scheme!



To me, this particular collapse (FTX) more closely resembles a pyramid scheme, but the two are so similar that the specific nomenclature probably isn't important.


----------



## Vario (Nov 18, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself
> 
> 
> The fallen crypto CEO on what went wrong, why he did what he did, and what lies he told along the way.
> ...


While the saying, 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence' is popular, I think in this particular instance, we can ascribe equal parts both.

His company appears to have had little to no financial controls nor any professional accounting personnel to implement and properly categorize transactions, and similarly he does not appear to have any legal counsel because a proper defense lawyer would have kept him out of making these kind of foolish statements to the press.  By all accounts, he was a truly incompetent CEO.

However, we can also ascribe malice, because he doesn't seem to care that he damaged so many.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Nov 18, 2022)

Vario said:


> While the saying, 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence' is popular, I think in this particular instance, we can ascribe equal parts both.
> 
> His company appears to have had little to no financial controls nor any professional accounting personnel to implement and properly categorize transactions, and similarly he does not appear to have any legal counsel because a proper defense lawyer would have kept him out of making these kind of foolish statements to the press.  By all accounts, he was a truly incompetent CEO.
> 
> However, we can also ascribe malice, because he doesn't seem to care that he damaged so many.



Just last night I was conversing about this with a friend, and opined that maybe Bankman-Fried didn't start out intending to swindle anybody, but things got too big too fast, and/or he got subsumed and blinded by his own success as so many do.  And maybe those things are true.  But my "good faith" take looks less and less likely with every statement.


----------



## trickson (Nov 18, 2022)

I tell you what things are getting worse and worse for this Morally empty maggot!


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 18, 2022)

Vario said:


> While the saying, 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence' is popular, I think in this particular instance, we can ascribe equal parts both.
> 
> His company appears to have had little to no financial controls nor any professional accounting personnel to implement and properly categorize transactions, and similarly he does not appear to have any legal counsel because a proper defense lawyer would have kept him out of making these kind of foolish statements to the press.  By all accounts, he was a truly incompetent CEO.
> 
> However, we can also ascribe malice, because he doesn't seem to care that he damaged so many.



It's not that he doesn't care in and of itself, it's that he intentionally deceived people into thinking he was something he wasn't at multiple levels.  

Markets are always about winners and losers, and varying degrees of both.  I don't know why anyone would think any differently.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 20, 2022)

"Mr. Bankman-Fried’s companies had neither accounting nor functioning human-resources departments, according to a filing in federal court by the executive brought in to shepherd FTX through bankruptcy. Corporate money was used to buy real estate, but records weren’t kept. There wasn’t even a roster of employees, to say nothing of the terms of their employment."









						They Lived Together, Worked Together and Lost Billions Together: Inside Sam Bankman-Fried’s Doomed FTX Empire
					

The emerging picture of what went wrong suggests the crypto empire was a mess almost from the start, with few boundaries, financial or personal.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 21, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594742129556746240

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570859495399788545
Seeing some discussions about how BTC has been "mining at a loss" recently, as well as defaults of mining companies. BTC has come down in price significantly, but difficulty still seems on the up-and-up. https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/charts/difficulty

"Mining for a loss" is possible as long as these guys have spare money. But it seems like a bad idea to me. Eventually, the companies will go defunct and have no choice but to go bankrupt / sell their equipment and fold. It costs real money (or at least, real electricity which costs money) to keep mining BTC after all, even if you have the latest and greatest antminer ASICs.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 22, 2022)

Wow..


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 23, 2022)

Not inside the topic, but a lot of chatter that coinbase could be in trouble. That would be another big blow to crypto.

Regarding FTX, the latest from SBF


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Just last night I was conversing about this with a friend, and opined that maybe Bankman-Fried didn't start out intending to swindle anybody, but things got too big too fast, and/or he got subsumed and blinded by his own success as so many do.  And maybe those things are true.  But my "good faith" take looks less and less likely with every statement.



We should abandon those 'good faith' takes. If you step into crypto with 'good faith' you're too naive to exist, IMHO. That thought was valid in the earliest years of Bitcoin, with all its promises of a new, utopian decentralized power balance. Some people never left that train... delusional doesn't even cover it proper.

Everyone in this business needs to bleed maximum, no ifs or buts, if they cross the line. SBF might be dumb as a doornail, but the man should not be able to live a good life anymore. And the same applies to everyone who thought to get rich in this shithole. Wherever there are such profits, people should simply know better. Nothing is free and for every winner there is a loser somewhere.

Crypto needs to die period. Luckily that's where its going, a victim of its own, highly questionable, success. It has no purpose apart from trying to get rich with no effort. Ironically, it also just self destructs with no effort; crypto and its friends don't need enemies to make it fail, they can do it pretty well themselves, driven by greed. Note: this is the conclusion banks and other real financial institutions drew many years ago. Just let it happen, problem fixes itself. Its doing so.



Bomby569 said:


> Not inside the topic, but a lot of chatter that coinbase could be in trouble. That would be another big blow to crypto.
> 
> Regarding FTX, the latest from SBF
> 
> View attachment 271397


One by one. Crypto trust issues have reached a new all time high. Not a single exchange is safe. Regulation won't happen, the consumer base won't pay for it and it doesn't fit the culture surrounding crypto either. So what do you have left when the exchange is gone? Lots of coin, and highly impractical ways to use it, making it a worse 'product' in every possible way; as speculative goods, and as transaction vehicle.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 23, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Not inside the topic, but a lot of chatter that coinbase could be in trouble.


Nope, you're fine. This fits right in.


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 23, 2022)

Another clear example of how regulation is demanded. The markets will never be able to regulate themselves, this is just further validation of that. The SEC should have been on their case a long time ago.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 23, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Another clear example of how regulation is demanded.


While you're not wrong, the proper solution might be something else.


Aquinus said:


> The markets will never be able to regulate themselves, this is just further validation of that.


True. Regulations might never be able to help that.


----------



## Vario (Nov 23, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Another clear example of how regulation is demanded. The markets will never be able to regulate themselves, this is just further validation of that. The SEC should have been on their case a long time ago.


One of the theoretical purposes of crypto is to not have regulation.

I've always been skeptical of cryptocurrency as an investment. The idea of an investment is something that gains intrinsic value.  However, much of crypto investing appears to be getting someone else to pay more than you did for an item of zero intrinsic value, and not being the inevitable bagholder/sucker at the end.  That sounds more like gambling. 

Ostensibly, crypto has instrinsic value as a currency of the new world order, and if you buy it today, maybe tomorrow you too can be an ubermensch.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 23, 2022)

Vario said:


> One of the theoretical purposes of crypto is to not have regulation.


And the repeating crashes with this massive one is what we get without regulations. Cryptocoin is proving itself to be as pointless and many have claimed it to be. It's far to risky and shady.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 23, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Not inside the topic, but a lot of chatter that coinbase could be in trouble.


Links or FUD frankly.  I don't care for idle "chatter" as a citation.

If coinbase is indeed going out that would be pretty much it IMO for non-state backed coins.  They have the most transparent books of anyone.  If they can't survive, no one can.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 23, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Another clear example of how regulation is demanded. The markets will never be able to regulate themselves, this is just further validation of that. The SEC should have been on their case a long time ago.



I don't disagree with your basic tenet.  

However it's important to note that regulation and control are antithetical to the reasons many actual crypto owners hold crypto.  I've seen not a few people posit that if big gov't regulation comes to crypto markets, then existing crypto will die rather quickly.


----------



## Vario (Nov 23, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Links or FUD frankly.  I don't care for idle "chatter" as a citation.
> 
> If coinbase is indeed going out that would be pretty much it IMO for non-state backed coins.  They have the most transparent books of anyone.  If they can't survive, no one can.


Depends on whether they have the cash reserves on hand for a "bank" run.  They claim 1:1 reserves held.  The other concern is if they can unwind transactions fast enough.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 24, 2022)

Vario said:


> They claim 1:1 reserves held.


And have published much more open stats on those reserves than many, which is why I'd like to see more than "the web chatter says" as a source.



Vario said:


> The other concern is if they can unwind transactions fast enough.


This can always be a legit worry though.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2022)

chatter is just that. If anyone had any solid thing to present we all know and it would be to late.
A golden rule is all CEO's say it's all fine before the end. Someone saying it's fine means nothing.

their bonds seems to paint a different story








						Coinbase Debt Was ‘Canary in the Coal Mine’ for Crypto Meltdown
					

In the wake of the spectacular meltdown of Sam Bankman-Fried’s crypto empire, many investors are looking for early warning signs that may have foretold the contagion that was about to unfold. One possibility? Coinbase Global Inc.’s junk bonds.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 24, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> However it's important to note that regulation and control are antithetical to the reasons many actual crypto owners hold crypto. I've seen not a few people posit that if big gov't regulation comes to crypto markets, then existing crypto will die rather quickly.


Most of the time when I hear about people or organizations avoiding regulations in finance, it is to do shady or risky things that regulation would likely stop or at the very least scrutinize. FTX is a prime example of how that power can be abused, whether intentional or not. Lack of regulation is kind of the same as defunding the IRS, the only people it benefits are the people who are avoiding taxes. Removing regulations and safeguards is no different most of the time. Simply put, people can't be trusted to keep their greed in check.


----------



## Vario (Nov 24, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Most of the time when I hear about people or organizations avoiding regulations in finance, it is to do shady or risky things that regulation would likely stop or at the very least scrutinize. FTX is a prime example of how that power can be abused, whether intentional or not. Lack of regulation is kind of the same as defunding the IRS, the only people it benefits are the people who are avoiding taxes. Removing regulations and safeguards is no different most of the time. Simply put, people can't be trusted to keep their greed in check.


I agree.  Unregulated crypto provides opportunities to scam investors, commit tax evasion, or to transfer funds to/from (laundering) criminal enterprises.  Advocating for deregulation implies support for these purposes.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2022)

Regarding price, i had money on BTC for some time, not now, to much volatility caused by the news, but my bet is a controlled trend down until 10.000$. But news can change this at any moment and that's why crypto is a dangerous asset now, and not by it's own fault. The same for Ethereum


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 24, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Most of the time when I hear about people or organizations avoiding regulations in finance, it is to do shady or risky things that regulation would likely stop or at the very least scrutinize. FTX is a prime example of how that power can be abused, whether intentional or not. Lack of regulation is kind of the same as defunding the IRS, the only people it benefits are the people who are avoiding taxes. Removing regulations and safeguards is no different most of the time. Simply put, people can't be trusted to keep their greed in check.



Of course.  But that means the exchanges can't exist without destroying the things that make crypto worth owning (vs fiat) in the first place.  In fact, fiat would have a distinct advantage.  

Once a regulator gets the crypto exchange under their regulatory power, they can get the customers, and their wallets.   Then not only can they see all future transactions, but by its nature (blockchain) they can also see all past transactions.   

This of course is a wet dream for regulators.  Not only can they nail people currently engaged in nefarious activities, they can look into the past and pretty much nail everyone who ever used crypto for a transaction and failed to pay or collect taxes on it, failed to get a business license, violated interstate trade laws, and so on and so forth.  Hire that migrant to build your fence and pay in crypto?  Yeah, you're toast, +fines and interest.  

And that is why it would be the end of crypto.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Of course.  But that means the exchanges can't exist without destroying the things that make crypto worth owning (vs fiat) in the first place.  In fact, fiat would have a distinct advantage.
> 
> Once a regulator gets the crypto exchange under their regulatory power, they can get the customers, and their wallets.   Then not only can they see all future transactions, but by its nature (blockchain) they can also see all past transactions.
> 
> ...



I don't understand your logic. They can already seize crypto assets, there's the ledgers, and you can regulate things like minimum ratios that will help the industry.
The fact that they regulate banks doesn't mean they can take your money. They can take your money but it has nothing to do with the regulation, they could/would do it even if they were deregulated. Those are even done by different government agencies/bodies. I'm not exactly inside this, in the US but SEC regulates, the law takes care of the rest.

If your talking about having to detail customer assets to the goverment, that is already happening in most places for tax purposes.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 24, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> I don't understand your logic. They can already seize crypto assets, there's the ledgers, and you can regulate things like minimum ratios that will help the industry.
> The fact that they regulate banks doesn't mean they can take your money. They can take your money but it has nothing to do with the regulation, they could/would do it even if they were deregulated. Those are even done by different government agencies/bodies. I'm not exactly inside this, in the US but SEC regulates, the law takes care of the rest.
> 
> If your talking about having to detail customer assets to the goverment, that is already happening in most places for tax purposes.



If you just have a wallet (key), and crypto associated with that key, they cannot 'seize' your crypto.   They have to get ahold of your wallet to do that.  If you use an exchange, you don't have the keys, not your crypto and yes they can seize that by seizing the exchange since they generally know where/who they are.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 24, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> If you just have a wallet (key), and crypto associated with that key, they cannot 'seize' your crypto.   They have to get ahold of your wallet to do that.  If you use an exchange, you don't have the keys, not your crypto and yes they can seize that by seizing the exchange since they generally know where/who they are.


This is exactly correct.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> If you just have a wallet (key), and crypto associated with that key, they cannot 'seize' your crypto.   They have to get ahold of your wallet to do that.  If you use an exchange, you don't have the keys, not your crypto and yes they can seize that by seizing the exchange since they generally know where/who they are.



You were talking about exchanges, and that's to what i replied. My point was regulation doesn't change the things you mentioned: "they can get the customers, and their wallets", they can already do that.
It would improve things like ratios, making sure they are solvent and keep your money and don't run away with it to whatever they fell like doing with it. It would avoid the FTX fiasco.

of course you can keep it off exchanges, just like you can keep fiat under the bed, so the state doesn't get to it, but that's a different story


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 24, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You were talking about exchanges, and that's to what i replied. My point was regulation doesn't change the things you mentioned: "they can get the customers, and their wallets", they can already do that.
> It would improve things like ratios, making sure they are solvent and keep your money and don't run away with it to whatever they fell like doing with it. It would avoid the FTX fiasco.
> 
> of course you can keep it off exchanges, just like you can keep fiat under the bed, so the state doesn't get to it, but that's a different story



Most crypto owners have their crypto under the bed.   The exchanges never even hit 20%, and now they are down to around 12%.

But this all skirts the point.  Crypto's reason for being is a distributed, unregulated, not - centrally controlled currency where freedom is absolute and transactions are anonymous.  

If you regulate it, it loses all of that, and actually becomes worse than fiat in all of those regards as a side effect of its blockchain roots given that blockchain records everything and every wallet that bitcoin ever touches.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 24, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Most crypto owners have their crypto under the bed.   The exchanges never even hit 20%, and now they are down to around 12%.
> 
> But this all skirts the point.  Crypto's reason for being is a distributed, unregulated, not - centrally controlled currency where freedom is absolute and transactions are anonymous.
> 
> ...



Cryptos ideological basis is undermined by the inevitable aspect of human greed and dishonesty. It was doomed from the start and without regulation it can never become a stable currency.

You can still regulate a decentralised system by implementing required checks and balances but every exchange would have to sign up.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2022)

i've said once before somewhere else, this is just like the idea of communism, starts as a utopia, all good intentions, but humans have trouble with it. We need rules or some assholes will take advantage.  This unregulated exchanges having "hacks" and problems will never end without regulation.
The idea of an unregulated currency is amazing, in reality it will never work. It goes against human nature

If everyone keeps it "under the bed", this thing is going nowhere. You need the regular people, this can't be just a underground thing, for p2p exchanges. To pay for some shady stuff or to purchase something from your friends.
And i do agree if they regulate it too much then what's even the point, it's another fiat.

And there's already the taxes, don't forget about that, it's almost universal now. The Man wants it's cut.


----------



## Vario (Nov 24, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Cryptos ideological basis is undermined by the inevitable aspect of human greed and dishonesty. It was doomed from the start and without regulation it can never become a stable currency.
> 
> You can still regulate a decentralised system by implementing required checks and balances but every exchange would have to sign up.


This brings to mind another issue, the idea of decentralization with cryptocurrency is problematic when there are likely large whales that hold the majority of it and manipulate it to their whims.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 24, 2022)

What do people mean by "Cryptocoin regulation" though? Its so vague. There's a billion regulations out there, and the bulk of them are banking regulations. Are you going to require FDIC insurance on USD-based stablecoins? That sounds stupid.

What bout SEC disclosure regulations upon publicly traded companies? Well, that *already exists* with Coinbase.

What regulations could possibly exist that can make "cryptocoins" safer, but not turn them into straight up money-market funds (or other tighly regulated securities in the USA, or Europe's, financial system) ? People keep saying the word "regulation" without actually finishing the thought and saying exactly what they plan to regulate at all.

That doesn't even get to the point that a lot of these exchanges (Binance / FTX) are offshore / outside of EU Regulators or USA's regulators grasps anyway. There's probably no way to actually get those "regulated" in practice... unless the Bahamas suddenly want to play the regulation game.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 24, 2022)

There are offshore banks in the Bahamas, it's the exact same thing, if they want to do business with US customers there is a set of rules. Offshores are regulated, and can be blacklisted. There is already a system in place. Is it perfect? no, but that's another discussion. Rich people and politians need a place for their money, but that's a feature not a bug. Intentional i would say

Regulate things like having to keep ratios like banks have to, having to keep accurate data and be audit, like banks have to. FTX was just freestyling, they didn't even knew were the money was, they exchanged money with Alameda and between themselves. That would not be possible in any bank.

In my country in 2008 a big bank went down by doing the exact same thing, the bank was also a part of a conglomerate and the banks money went to save the sausage factory and shit like that. It's legislated and it's not possible anymore, banks have to be separated. Just an example.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 24, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Most of the time when I hear about people or organizations avoiding regulations in finance, it is to do shady or risky things that regulation would likely stop or at the very least scrutinize. FTX is a prime example of how that power can be abused, whether intentional or not. Lack of regulation is kind of the same as defunding the IRS, the only people it benefits are the people who are avoiding taxes. Removing regulations and safeguards is no different most of the time. Simply put, people can't be trusted to keep their greed in check.


The regulation you'd want though is one paid for and 'emergent' from the market itself. Clearly, there is no interest in that amongst the userbase or in the dev community. And let's face it, if transactions would carry a cost for using a regulated service, would it survive in that market?


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 25, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Regulate things like having to keep ratios like banks have to



Okay, so fractional reserve banking? How would that work without a central bank? And as far as I can tell, there would never be a "central bank of cryptocurrencies". Ratio of "what" to "what" needs to be in reserves?

Lets say customers deposit 100 BTC into some ... security, or bank, or entity. The bank lends out 80 BTC to someone else, in return for... what? What is the bank allowed to trade for? Shares? Bonds? Other cryptocoins? Derivatives? Commodities? Futures? 80 BTC worth of FTT tokens? It doesn't matter, its all "not BTC", meaning you open up the bank to market risk. Lets say you trade the 80BTC for US dollars, what happens when BTC skyrockets +20%? Well, your 20 BTC + 66.6 BTC worth of dollars is now insolvent. (86.6 BTC in the vaults, but there are 100BTC deposits you need to return).

Because if its too open-ended, you simply allow the FTT for BTC trade that ruined FTX. There's no entity out there that can "print BTC" like the Fed can print dollars into existence, so there's no central bank whose promises we can rely upon for a fractional-reserve like system. The entire concept falls flat on its face immediately.

A bank sells short-term liquidity to trade for long-term bonds. That is: the $100,000 people put into a USA bank can be traded away for $20k in cash, and $80k in highly rated bonds (ex: a promise that the $80k will come back), likely sometime between 1-week and 12-weeks. Even in a bank-run situation, the central bank can just print money to tide us over until the 4-week bond (or whatever) turns back into cash, and all is well.

The very concept of central reserve banking just doesn't work in the cryptocoin world, because no one can be a reliable printer for BTC to serve as the basis of these promises. The concept of selling short-term liquidity and buying long-term bonds (and skimming off the excess money from that) just doesn't exist in the cryptocoin world yet.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 25, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Okay, so fractional reserve banking? How would that work without a central bank? And as far as I can tell, there would never be a "central bank of cryptocurrencies". Ratio of "what" to "what" needs to be in reserves?
> 
> Lets say customers deposit 100 BTC into some ... security, or bank, or entity. The bank lends out 80 BTC to someone else, in return for... what? What is the bank allowed to trade for? Shares? Bonds? Other cryptocoins? Derivatives? Commodities? Futures? 80 BTC worth of FTT tokens? It doesn't matter, its all "not BTC", meaning you open up the bank to market risk. Lets say you trade the 80BTC for US dollars, what happens when BTC skyrockets +20%? Well, your 20 BTC + 66.6 BTC worth of dollars is now insolvent. (86.6 BTC in the vaults, but there are 100BTC deposits you need to return).
> 
> ...



Exchanges are not banks, and aren't supposed to. They aren't supposed to do nothing with your coins. They should make money from the fees.  FTT was making a lot of money, it was the other shit that lost the money, Alameda, derivatives, the hundreds of other companies they had. And Celsius fiasco shows it's not really a good idea anyway. The price is too volatile and they have no real way to get money back or manage guarantees like real banks. One simple swing in crypto value and it all goes to shit.

But if they are going to do something with your money, and Coinbase lends money for example, there should be a minimum ratio of guaranteed deposits to "investments". That's why regulation is needed.


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 25, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Of course. But that means the exchanges can't exist without destroying the things that make crypto worth owning (vs fiat) in the first place. In fact, fiat would have a distinct advantage.


That's not an advantage, it's a built in mechanism to enable people to defraud others and make risky financial decisions. It's anti-regulation built in for people who don't want others to know what they do with their money which usually means that it's a questionable use in the first place. People want this for the same reason that rich people who avoid taxes don't want to fund the IRS; the advantage of being a lazy crook goes away. Regulation is not a bad thing, it's only an impediment to satiating the greed for these people who make the most noise about it.

Once again, we can't trust people to keep their greed in check. We can't have no regulation because people suck and will always abuse it. Period.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 25, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Exchanges are not banks, and aren't supposed to. They aren't supposed to do nothing with your coins. They should make money from the fees.



Uh huh... you know that ETrade, TDAmeritrace/Schwab, Fidelity, and Vanguard are $0 per trade now and almost solely make money off of cash holdings / interest now, right?



Bomby569 said:


> FTT was making a lot of money








Do... you want to guess where things went wrong with FTT? That cliff in early November is what *caused* this whole collapse.



> Alameda



Alameda lost money, but it had collateral in the form of FTT tokens. It turns out the FTT tokens were worthless. So when FTX took the collateral and tried to sell it and stabilize itself, everything collapsed.

I'm not sure if you understand what happened here. The Alameda investments were collateralized by FTT. Its not much different than say, a mortgage where the collateral is the house. If the mortgage goes unpaid, the banks take the collateral (ie: the house) and then try to sell the house. If a ton of bankers do this all at the same time, 2007 happens (housing market collapses, a lot of math trusting that the "collateral is good" goes to shit and a contagion event begins to happen).

Except... ya know... FTT is shitter collateral than a house for many reasons. (One of which is that it was made up by FTX and had a circular dependency upon FTX). I'm not sure if there's regulations against collateral in yourself (ex: it might be legal for you to offer Bank of America shares as collateral to a Bank of America personal loan). Its one of those "no way anyone is stupid enough to actually try this" situations... except in the cryptocoin world, their understanding in basic financials is so shit that the 2nd/3rd largest exchange in the world did this constantly. (Collateralizing their debt/investments in self-made coins)



Bomby569 said:


> But if they are going to do something with your money, and Coinbase lends money for example, there should be a minimum ratio of guaranteed deposits to "investments". That's why regulation is needed.



You're missing my point. The regulations clearly state what those "investments" will be. See Money Market funds, which are regulated to only hold high-grade corporate debt and 3-month US Treasuries or less.

If those investments are allowed to be... say FTT token, you're left with... well... the FTX situation. Its not like banks are allowed to gamble away our money in the open market. There are only a very limited number of things a bank can buy (ex: Bank of America debt, or a US Treasury with 8-weeks remainin, or... other such very very high quality debt). Its not *JUST* a 30% limit on liquidity, but also very strong measures on investments.

I'm trying to get you to say what "investments" an entity like FTX "should" be allowed to invest into. Because if its "none", then you're "worse than a bank", and if its "anything", then its also worse than a bank. The devil is in the details, and writing good regulations is surprisingly difficult.


---------

EDIT: I realize this might be abstract to people who don't think about banking very much. So lemme get more specific.









						Money Market Mutual Funds: Stress Testing & New Regulatory Requirements
					

In July 2014, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) adopted a package of reforms to the regulatory framework governing money market mutual funds. ...




					corpgov.law.harvard.edu
				




This here discusses a set of regulations, called the "Stress Tests", that were put into place for MMFs (funds like VUSXX) that claim to be like-cash, though riskier with a %APY return on today's market. VUSXX, SWVXX, VMFXX, and many other such funds exist that follow these mutual fund regulations.





In this hypothetical example, there's almost no "cash" in this fund at all. Its all just high-quality debt. There's almost no "cash" in this vault. The legal requirement is that "this security can get 30% of its liquidity within a week", IE, assurances that this stuff "can easily turn into cash" within a week. Its a relatively free-form regulation (much less strict than a "savings account"), but these looser rules allow an MMF to make a few BPS more yield than a savings account. Its riskier, but none of these MMFs have failed since 2007 (and even the big bank-run was over an MMF going from $1.00 to $0.97, a consistent occurrence in the world of Stablecoins like USDT let alone failed ones like UST / Luna)

But you see, all of these "regulations" only make sense because an MMF only claims to "Be like cash". And all of this paper / bonds / notes will become cash soon (from 1-day to 90-days), so its relatively low risk. Even if almost no cash actually exists in that vault at any given time. Its 99% invested into bonds and other junk.

Its not just hypothetical either. We can look at VMFXX (https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/mutual-funds/profile/vmfxx#portfolio-composition) and see its holdings.





Look ma, *THERE"S NO CASH AT ALL* here. Its 100% invested.





The key is that VMFXX has ~70% of its debt coming due *tomorrow*. But it almost never holds any cash on any given particular day. Since VMFXX buys/sells only at 4pm (market close) each day as a mutual fund, it works out pretty well. Anyone who enters / exits from VMFXX knows that "they're good for the money" by tomorrow.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 25, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Uh huh... you know that ETrade, TDAmeritrace/Schwab, Fidelity, and Vanguard are $0 per trade now and almost solely make money off of cash holdings / interest now, right?



All of those are regulated, money is insured in most if not all (i don't know all of them in detail) the exact point of this discussion

FTT token had no value, the crash was caused by the Coinbase sell off but that was not the problem, that was the catalyst. It also has nothing to do with the FTT core business.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 26, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> the crash was caused by the Coinbase sell off


No the crash was caused by the CEO literally gutting the planes engines and jumping.

Have you even been following the news on this?  I'm unsure how anything FTX did could be considered "legit business" or anything remotely "profitable" to anyone but the CEO.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 26, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> No the crash was caused by the CEO literally gutting the planes engines and jumping.
> 
> Have you even been following the news on this?  I'm unsure how anything FTX did could be considered "legit business" or anything remotely "profitable" to anyone but the CEO.



Given what SBF told people who were depositing with FTX, it sounds like straight up fraud to me.  It's no different than someone who says lets go in together on buying this toll bridge, takes your money and buys mansion with it in their name. 

Yeah the investors are stupid, but it's still fraud and it's illegal. 

I don't get why this guy is still walking around free, and not on a bail bond.  The US does have an extradition agreement with the Bahamas.  Even Turkey of all places is being tougher on FTX than the US.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 26, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> No the crash was caused by the CEO literally gutting the planes engines and jumping.
> 
> Have you even been following the news on this?  I'm unsure how anything FTX did could be considered "legit business" or anything remotely "profitable" to anyone but the CEO.



read before replying, he asked what caused the crash on the chart for the tokens


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 26, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> read before replying, he asked what caused the crash on the chart for the tokens


Which...  was what I said?


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 28, 2022)

BlockFi formally files for bankruptcy.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 29, 2022)




----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Nov 29, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> View attachment 272212



That has to be in tight competition for the most ridiculous financial orobouros of all time.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 29, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> That has to be in tight competition for the most ridiculous financial orobouros of all time.



Somewhat. BlockFi asked for more money to be lent to BlockFi on November 7th, while this whole FTX disaster was unfolding. So its... actually missing a few interesting steps.

But yeah, what has happened here is incredibly ridiculous. And it might get even more ridiculous the more-and-more information comes forward.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 29, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> View attachment 272212


OOooo, someone on twitter said something. PANIC AND FLEE!!!


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Nov 29, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> OOooo, someone on twitter said something. PANIC AND FLEE!!!



Are they wrong?


----------



## ThrashZone (Nov 29, 2022)

Hi,
Already plenty of fleas around so yeah time to flee as well while the exterminators are at it


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 29, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> OOooo, someone on twitter said something. PANIC AND FLEE!!!



Its a really good summary of the BlockFi bankruptcy filing, actually. (As I stated in an earlier post: its main error is... missing a few steps that make it even more ridiculous. There's only so much they could fit into 280 characters after all)



			https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rB6b3dXLT378/v0
		


I mean, if you prefer the 41 pages of legal text, you're welcome to read that too. But... its actually a really good tweet that summarizes the legal text.

------

EDIT: I guess its not a 100% reliable document. It only represents BlockFi's side of the bankruptcy argument. But its at least BlockFi's official filing / official claims as they enter bankruptcy.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 29, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Are they wrong?


Usually.  But not in this case.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 30, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Are they wrong?


Better question: Why should we assume they're right?


R-T-B said:


> Usually.  But not in this case.


Oh? Is there a citation for that? It's a bit convoluted..



dragontamer5788 said:


> ts a really good summary of the BlockFi bankruptcy filing, actually. (As I stated in an earlier post: its main error is... missing a few steps that make it even more ridiculous. There's only so much they could fit into 280 characters after all)
> 
> https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rB6b3dXLT378/v0
> I mean, if you prefer the 41 pages of legal text, you're welcome to read that too. But... its actually a really good tweet that summarizes the legal text.


On page 39 of that document, there is shown a clearly defined corporate sturcure, which to me, does not resemble the scheme suggested by the earlier twitter post. Falsifying that kind of data is a crime, will get the legal counsel disbarred, the debtor(or exec officer) thrown in jail and the bankruptcy thrown out. So you can bet real money that the information is accurate. It is FAR more likely that the twitter post, like so many others like it, is complete BS.


dragontamer5788 said:


> EDIT: I guess its not a 100% reliable document. It only represents BlockFi's side of the bankruptcy argument. But its at least BlockFi's official filing / official claims as they enter bankruptcy.


But again, any information submitted to the courts must be accurate and truthful, even if it's not the whole picture.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Better question: Why should we assume they're right?
> 
> Oh? Is there a citation for that? It's a bit convoluted..


It is, and you are right to be skeptical of random twitter posts.  You'd have to be pretty deep in the nitty gritty to properly verify though.  @dragontamer5788  here has a pretty decent set of links.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 30, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> It is, and you are right to be skeptical of random twitter posts.


Not by the looks of that legal document(see edit above).


R-T-B said:


> You'd have to be pretty deep in the nitty gritty to properly verify though.


Yeah, just read through it. That info and the depiction in the twitter post do not match up. I'm going to take the data in a legal document before taking the word of someone on twitter. Just throwing it out there.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not by the looks of that legal document(see edit above).
> 
> Yeah, just read through it. That info and the depiction in the twitter post do not match up. I'm going to take the data in a legal document before taking the word of someone on twitter. Just throwing it out there.


I'm admitedly not a lawyer but have read some interpretations that lean that way of the twitter post.  As a pleb on these matters though I'll just admit "shits confusing."


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yeah, just read through it. That info and the depiction in the twitter post do not match up.





> 4. While BlockFi has fared better than many of its peers in the market, this confluence of pre-November 2022 events led it to seek an injection of liquidity in an effort to protect its clients from harm. FTX offered to supply that liquidity through a loan agreement and an option agreement (providing an option to FTX to purchase the equity of BlockFi at a later date) that would protect clients and BlockFi’s ability to continue operating as a going concern. BlockFi accepted this offer to stave off a liquidity crisis and avoid harm to its clients, despite it requiring its executives and employees to sacrifice hundreds of millions of dollars in equity value while continuing to work increasingly hard without the potential upside that equity ownership otherwise offered.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 6. BlockFi has substantial exposure to FTX, through the FTX Loan Agreement and FTX Option Agreement (as defined herein), as well as loans that BlockFi made to Alameda Research Ltd. (“Alameda”) and cryptocurrencies held on FTX’s platform for trading activities which became trapped on FTX’s platform due to its bankruptcy filing. [snip]



This establishes that:

1. In #4, BlockFi began to have liquidity issues. So they borrowed money from FTX.

2. In #6, BlockFi also was pointing out that FTX / Almeda Research was ALSO *borrowing from BlockFi*.

Its definitely an orobouros (Snake eating its own tail) structure. There's a bunch of _OTHER SHIT_ that's crazy that's going on in here (allegedly / from BlockFi's perspective), but I think the loop is proven with just the two points above.

EDIT: And of course, in the "causes for BlockFi's bankruptcy" section.



> 96. Alameda thereafter defaulted on approximately $680 million of collateralized loan obligations to BlockFi, the recovery on which is unknown.



And earlier...



> 67. On June 30, 2022, BlockFi Inc., as borrower, entered into a loan agreement with West Realm Shires Inc. (d/b/a FTX US, “FTX US”), as lender (the “FTX Loan Agreement”), which provides for loans (the “Loans”) to be made to BlockFi Inc. in an amount of up to $400 million outstanding at any time, of which: (a) $300 million is available for general corporate purposes; and (b) $100 million is available solely to fund BlockFi Inc.’s obligations to its clients (the “Client Payment Obligations”). BlockFi Inc.’s obligations under the FTX Loan Agreement are guaranteed by BlockFi Trading and BlockFi Lending (together, the “Guarantors”).



The further details on BlockFi's loan to Alameda + FTX's loan to BlockFi.


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 30, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> BlockFi formally files for bankruptcy.


It's a freaking house of cards.



dragontamer5788 said:


> This establishes that:
> 
> 1. In #4, BlockFi began to have liquidity issues. So they borrowed money from FTX.
> 
> ...


This feels like fraud at a massive scale.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 30, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> This feels like fraud at a massive scale.



I think this part was unusual, but not fraud.

The fraud part is...



			https://pacer-documents.s3.amazonaws.com/109/1094078/118164201903.pdf
		


The Emergent / Robinhood portion. I guess I didn't include that document earlier. But "Emergent" is SBF's company that holds all of the Robinhood. So this document is pretty much BlockFi asking "where the hell are the Robinhood shares you promised me SBF??", even though its somewhat unstated.

SBF promised Emergent / Robinhood as collateral. Now SBF lost all his money, and BlockFi is playing collector and demanding the collateral that was promised.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 30, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> "shits confusing."


True. Remember I worked for several law firms in my day and finding details in filings was part of my job. And I was good at it.



dragontamer5788 said:


> This establishes that:
> 
> 1. In #4, BlockFi began to have liquidity issues. So they borrowed money from FTX.
> 
> ...


Ah, but that structure does not match the twitter post, that's all I'm saying. I agree with you that it's a snake eating it's own tail scenario.


dragontamer5788 said:


> I think this part was unusual, but not fraud.
> 
> The fraud part is...
> 
> ...


Counts Three, Four and Five, on pages 7, 8 and 9 are the meat & bones of the document. Those points describe a company trying to buffer itself against market crashes at the expense of the investors. Not illegal if structured properly, but definitely janky.

I'm not taking the side of Sam Fried. Only offering some perspective from a previous professional angle.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 30, 2022)

One of very, very few who called the FTX bluff.  

From Feb 2022 :

"Is this really the altruistic genius being painted in the media? Or is SBF just another greedy conman in the Crypto Crime Cartel? Make your own mind up, but in any case, remember that this is an industry run by some very shady people, and nothing is ever as it seems. If you trade on leverage on these platforms, you’re up against people with unlimited funds and an insider’s view of the orderbooks. Your chances of beating them are zero."









						FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried isn’t who you think he is
					

Sam Bankman-Fried recently hit the news when he was featured in Washington Post, vowing to give away millions worth of BTC, although he admits this is about wooing regulators and onboarding people to FTX.




					coingeek.com
				




This seems like a reasonable resource:






						Crypto Crime Cartel Archives
					

Crypto Crime Cartel Tag - CoinGeek.




					coingeek.com


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Nov 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ah, but that structure does not match the twitter post, that's all I'm saying. I agree with you that it's a snake eating it's own tail scenario.



Well, I guess the devil is in the details. But the details are a 41 page + 16 page legal document (two different docs). Of course a 280 character tweet is gonna be somewhat of an estimate of it, lol.

But I think the overall "BlockFi owes FTX money because Almeda Research owes it money because SBF owns Emergent (which is a shell organization that only owns Robinhood shares) and those Robinhood shares were promised to BlockFi" snake-eating-its-own-tail loop is... correctish? If you squint hard enough. Perhaps its not the most accurate thing to say, but its a hell of a lot easier to say than the legal text, lol.


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 1, 2022)

Ex-FTX boss Bankman-Fried: 'I didn't try to commit fraud'
					

Sam Bankman-Fried says he has almost no money left after the collapse of the crypto exchange.



					www.bbc.com
				



Oh, HE had a bad month? Poor guy. /s


----------



## Leobar (Dec 1, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Since we have quite a few Australians here, it's interesting to note that Avocado's were a better investment than Bitcoin for the past 3 years (Aus is a major exporter) :
> 
> View attachment 259245


Hahahahaha thats a new one haven't seen that example before i also had no idea that australia was a major exporter not gonna lie


----------



## Assimilator (Dec 1, 2022)

Tether is going to be the next to go belly-up: https://www.wsj.com/articles/rising-tether-loans-add-risk-to-stablecoin-crypto-world-11669875590



> Tether says it lends only to eligible customers and requires that borrowers post lots of "extremely liquid" collateral, which could be sold for dollars if borrowers default. These loans have appeared for several quarters in the financial reports that Tether shows on its website. In the most recent report, they reached $6.1 billion as of Sept. 30, or 9% of the company's total assets. They were $4.1 billion, or 5% of total assets, at the end of 2021.
> 
> Tether calls them "secured loans" and *discloses little about the borrowers or the collateral accepted*. Alex Welch, a Tether spokeswoman, confirmed that all of the secured loans listed in the reports were issued and denominated in tether. The company said the loans were short-term and that Tether holds the collateral. *Tether, which is incorporated in the British Virgin Islands, doesn't publish audited financial statements or a complete balance sheet*, leaving outsiders with an incomplete picture of the company's financial health. "Tether's disclosures are limited to the information contained in the mentioned reports," Ms. Welch said. The rise in Tether's lending represents a broad risk to the crypto world. Stablecoins such as tether are anchors in the system. They are vital for trading many cryptocurrencies and are widely held by traders. The premise of tether -- and other stablecoins -- is that the issuer always will redeem one coin for $1. Issuers take pains to demonstrate they have ample funds available to do so. The company's reports show only U.S. dollar amounts for the loans and don't say the loans were made in tether tokens. The reports also say the loans were "fully collateralized by liquid assets."



"Tether says" sounds a lot like "FTX says".


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Dec 13, 2022)

SBF arrested.


----------



## Vario (Dec 13, 2022)

Binance might be about to pop








						Exclusive-U.S. Justice Dept is split over charging Binance as crypto world falters - sources
					

Splits between U.S. Department of Justice prosecutors are delaying the conclusion of a long-running criminal investigation into the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange Binance, four people familiar with the matter have told Reuters.




					www.reuters.com
				



https://www.coindesk.com/markets/20...cerns-about-its-reserve-report-spook-traders/








						Binance temporarily halts withdrawals of stablecoin USDC as investor concerns mount after FTX collapse
					

Changpeng Zhao, CEO of Binance, tweeted on Tuesday that the exchange is seeing an increase in withdrawals of USDC.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Bomby569 (Dec 13, 2022)

Vario said:


> Binance might be about to pop
> 
> 
> 
> ...



how can you have an exchange and lose money? you just have to collect the fees, the house always wins, going up or down.

The problem i see was the lending and using the clients money to invest themselves (sure not all at FTX levels). And they are/were all doing it. If crypto doesn't meaningfully go up soon, they will all go down.





edit:

Someone paid me 300USD for my reddit avatar, yes that was a thing that really happened. This is not a joke. The world is insane and i love it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 14, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> SBF arrested.


Not surprising.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Dec 14, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not surprising.



The speed is surprising. It took the Feds years to nab Madoff. The first evidence came out in 2001, and Madoff wasn't arrested until 2008.

Then again, SBF has been an idiot throughout this. So maybe it shouldn't be too surprising to me...


----------



## RandallFlagg (Dec 14, 2022)

The Attorney prosecuting SBF.  Charges levied last Wed, Grand Jury indictment by last Friday. 

SBF is toast. I saw no sympathy in the house hearing either.

"To any person, entity, or political campaign that has received stolen customer money we ask that you work with us to return that money to the innocent victims.  And to anyone who participated in wrongdoing at FTX or Alameda research and who has not yet come forward, I would strongly encourage you to come see us before we come see you."


----------



## Vario (Dec 16, 2022)

Mazars Group suspends all work with crypto clients including Binance, Crypto.com, citing concerns over public perception of proof of reserves
					

Accounting firm Mazars Group has suspended all work with its crypto clients, according to its former client and the world's largest crypto exchange, Binance.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 17, 2022)

Vario said:


> Mazars Group suspends all work with crypto clients including Binance, Crypto.com, citing concerns over public perception of proof of reserves
> 
> 
> Accounting firm Mazars Group has suspended all work with its crypto clients, according to its former client and the world's largest crypto exchange, Binance.
> ...


I'm surprised that didn't happen sooner.


----------



## Vario (Dec 17, 2022)

Probably enough overlap between trekkies and techpowerup to post this humorous skit I found


----------



## StrayKAT (Dec 19, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> One of very, very few who called the FTX bluff.
> 
> From Feb 2022 :
> 
> ...



My boy Coffeezilla has blown up since the FTX thing. He called it pretty early too.

Or you could say SBF called it on himself. He admitted it was basically a Ponzi in so many words in an interview awhile back.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Dec 19, 2022)

StrayKAT said:


> My boy Coffeezilla has blown up since the FTX thing. He called it pretty early too.
> 
> Or you could say SBF called it on himself. He admitted it was basically a Ponzi in so many words in an interview awhile back.



Coffeezilla is a bit late IMO. Matt Levine was the one who called it a Ponzi in that interview back in March/April or so.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518601156670287872
Then again, I'm a bit of a fanboy of Matt Levine (columnist at Bloomberg). Levine has an almost satirical writing style. He's not always correct, but he's always in depth and well reasoned.



> “I think of myself as a fairly cynical person and that was so much more cynical than I would have described farming. You’re just like ‘I’m in the Ponzi scheme business and it’s pretty good.’”
> 
> [...]
> 
> “Can you comment on the sustainability of that?”



I dunno if watching the whole interview is worth it. But at least the ~5 minute clip where Matt Levine is trying to understand yield farming from SBF, leading up to the "Ponzi Scheme" comment is pretty good.


----------



## StrayKAT (Dec 19, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Coffeezilla is a bit late IMO. Matt Levine was the one who called it a Ponzi in that interview back in March/April or so.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518601156670287872
> ...


Cool, I'll check him out. I think that was him in Coffee's link too?

edit: Really, this all should have been obvious to everyone. All it takes is having a sense of principles (both general life principles and first rules of some given field.. in this case, economics). And then a guy like this can call it for what it was.

Crypto however has a way of making everyone forget even fundamental lessons. It's Bizarro land. Maybe it started with a good idea. It went from "let's decentralize currency, bro" but jumped to "lets rewrite all the rules" in no time and all the scumbags (and dupes) came out of the woodwork. Low tier, degenerate scams have suddenly become mainstream and pushed as the "new thing", the new economy, and pushed by supposed financiers to celebrities to even ex-presidents now. SBF isn't even unique.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 20, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Coffeezilla is a bit late IMO. Matt Levine was the one who called it a Ponzi in that interview back in March/April or so.


Hell both of them are late. Who has been calling it a Ponzi scheme for years? I hate to say "I told you so", but damn..


----------



## RandallFlagg (Dec 20, 2022)

StrayKAT said:


> Cool, I'll check him out. I think that was him in Coffee's link too?
> 
> edit: Really, this all should have been obvious to everyone. All it takes is having a sense of principles (both general life principles and first rules of some given field.. in this case, economics). And then a guy like this can call it for what it was.
> 
> Crypto however has a way of making everyone forget even fundamental lessons. It's Bizarro land. Maybe it started with a good idea. It went from "let's decentralize currency, bro" but jumped to "lets rewrite all the rules" in no time and all the scumbags (and dupes) came out of the woodwork. Low tier, degenerate scams have suddenly become mainstream and pushed as the "new thing", the new economy, and pushed by supposed financiers to celebrities to even ex-presidents now. SBF isn't even unique.



What concerns me about the whole thing is not that some ponzi scheme existed within the crypto space.  Honestly I did a couple of instances of mining here and there, most of the clients are hooked up to someone's exchange or crypto pool, and all of them looked like one or the other type of ponzi scheme to me.  

What concerns me is that a bunch of fairly well regarded funds invested in SBF.  I'm not talking about a ponzi scheme bitcoin exchange that invested in another ponzi scheme bitcoin exchange (FTX).   

I'm talking about companies like Tiger Global, a $125B global investment company, and Sequoia Capital with $85B, Temasek with over 400B US, not to mention BlackRock with 150B.  

If I had never heard of FTX, I would still recognize all of those names.  Whoever ran the accounts or had anything to do with investing in FTX from those companies should be sacked with cause.  

This is exactly the kind of thing those companies get paid the big bucks to avoid, and it makes me wonder what else they haven't been paying attention to.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Dec 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Hell both of them are late. Who has been calling it a Ponzi scheme for years? I hate to say "I told you so", but damn..



I've been reading Mr. Levine for over 2+ years now. Most of his discussions are on _other_ stupid shit going on in the financial world, like SPACs... or the London Whale, or... ya know... stupid stuff going on in the rest of the financial world.

Cryptocoins went up in value a lot last year and he started talking more about it. I noticed it with Iron/Titan when Mr. Levine started talking about how little sense it all made. Then suddenly Iron/Titan clones like Terra/Luna pop up and everything is insanity for a while... but... yeah... Levine actually did call this stuff out rather early last year (or earlier than I would have called it at least).

Anyway, he's not really a cryptocoin writer. He hops from topic-to-topic, and finance has a lot of interesting things going on all over the place. You can't expect him to just focus on cryptocoins! But when he does talk about cryptocoins, its about the stupidest parts of it. (Much like how his discussions on the rest of finances focuses on extremely stupid parts of finance in general. Like buying a stock, because a celebrity told you so... and the stock doesn't actually have a business plan yet. AKA: SPACs).


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## StrayKAT (Dec 20, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> What concerns me about the whole thing is not that some ponzi scheme existed within the crypto space.  Honestly I did a couple of instances of mining here and there, most of the clients are hooked up to someone's exchange or crypto pool, and all of them looked like one or the other type of ponzi scheme to me.
> 
> What concerns me is that a bunch of fairly well regarded funds invested in SBF.  I'm not talking about a ponzi scheme bitcoin exchange that invested in another ponzi scheme bitcoin exchange (FTX).
> 
> ...


What if I told you that they're all built on Ponzi schemes too?


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 20, 2022)

StrayKAT said:


> What if I told you that they're all built on Ponzi schemes too?



I'd say I've been hearing that for 40 years.  It's like someone who looks at a small part of a bridge's girders without seeing its relationship to the whole, and says it's a house of cards easily tipped over.  

And then the bridge lasts for 100 years.


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## ThrashZone (Dec 20, 2022)

Hi,
The biggest issue is suckers are O-plenty 
Mining thin air or ransomware data for made up coins, just the concept is ponzi but gov's continue to give the rich con-artists lots air "bribe to play on" so it continues because the lie is easy money or oops coin but it's real money to them because rich are smart enough to cash out suckers stay in until it's to late


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## StrayKAT (Dec 20, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I'd say I've been hearing that for 40 years.  It's like someone who looks at a small part of a bridge's girders without seeing its relationship to the whole, and says it's a house of cards easily tipped over.
> 
> And then the bridge lasts for 100 years.


I definitely don't think it's easily tipped over at least.


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## trog100 (Dec 20, 2022)

it lasts until it dosnt.. then they all say how come people didnt see this coming.. 

bat shit crazy becomes the norm.. he he.. 

trog


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 20, 2022)

StrayKAT said:


> I definitely don't think it's easily tipped over at least.



Indeed.  The bridge analogy is apt, each girder pushes on another, each tension line pulls on the girders, until all the force is distributed to a few key spots at the foundation.  

Engineers who inspect bridges know what to look for, they know how it works.  Usually when a bridge collapses, you find an inspector not doing their job, on the take in some fashion by a construction company, or whose reports are suppressed by their political superiors who themselves are on the take.  

Which brings me back to my point about the big, regulated investment funds like Tiger and BlackRock.  This is not as much of a guessing game for them as people would like to believe, they know what to look for.  

It would be one thing if FTX had sophisticated accountants cooking the books for ingestion by potential investors like Tiger/BlackRock.  But they didn't, they apparently didn't have anything.  I mean their accounting was being done from a $250 QuickBooks program.  This is the difference between Madoff and SBF, Madoff was a pro and had a cadre of pros helping him commit fraud, SBF was just an small time con artist with no sophistication whatsoever and whose method can be summed up as "baffle them with BS".

I have to conclude that these big investment houses are not doing their due diligence, which takes me back to the bridge analogy, and the inspectors..


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## the54thvoid (Dec 20, 2022)

Those big investment houses still probably rely on one or two over paid and over confident humans. It only takes one 'I know best' asshole to sink a company.


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## dragontamer5788 (Dec 20, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Those big investment houses still probably rely on one or two over paid and over confident humans. It only takes one 'I know best' asshole to sink a company.



Based on my readings with Matt Levine, executives at big investment houses are given very large amounts of leeway to earn, or lose, $Billions at a time.

If an executive loses $1 or $2 Billion over bad bets, that executive's career is over... but the firm writes it off undamaged. Companies like Blackrock are measured in the $10 Trillion+ range (aka: $10,000 Billion+). They don't really care if they lose $1 or $2 Billion over the course of a year or two. Its just the cost of doing business. Even then, these executives that lose $Billions are often seen as "learning from their mistake" and are often offered a job at other firms. So even the executives aren't always punished for such recklessness.

The idea that the big companies are "more conservative" is just innately wrong. The bigger companies can afford to be more reckless, because $1, $2, or even $10 Billion mistakes don't even phaze them.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 21, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I'd say I've been hearing that for 40 years.  It's like someone who looks at a small part of a bridge's girders without seeing its relationship to the whole, and says it's a house of cards easily tipped over.
> 
> And then the bridge lasts for 100 years.


Interesting analogy. Doesn't exactly work here though..


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 22, 2022)

No wonder SBF was shaking at his extradition hearing in the Bahamas. 

All his friends \ conspirators are con artists, what did he really think was going to happen?  Rats and a sinking ship.









						FTX's Gary Wang, Alameda's Caroline Ellison plead guilty to federal charges, cooperating with prosecutors
					

Ellison, 28, and Wang, 29, become the second and third individuals to be charged in connection with FTX's multibillion-dollar collapse




					www.cnbc.com
				




Here's the prison he's been staying at.  He waived formal extradition processing so he could get back to the US quicker :


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## Bomby569 (Dec 22, 2022)

Bitcoin (the one that really matters to evaluate crypto) is at late 2020 levels. When the money printing was at full speed. 
It's kind of surprising to me, that with all that is happening in crypto and the economy in general that's where Bitcoin is, i would say it's a very good sign if you can read between the lines.

I would expect it to be much lower tbh.


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Bitcoin (the one that really matters to evaluate crypto) is at late 2020 levels. When the money printing was at full speed.
> It's kind of surprising to me, that with all that is happening in crypto and the economy in general that's where Bitcoin is, i would say it's a very good sign if you can read between the lines.
> 
> I would expect it to be much lower tbh.




You can say the same exact thing of essentially all markets.  NAS, DOW, S&P, even things like Gold have not moved substantially from late 2020 levels.  Oil is one of a few winners here.

It's worth noting that, in inflation-adjusted terms, most markets are down about 16% more than what their nominal value on a chart shows.  It seems like the only investors who take note of that are bond investors, but it affects all investments equally.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 22, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> You can say the same exact thing of essentially all markets.  NAS, DOW, S&P, even things like Gold have not moved substantially from late 2020 levels.  Oil is one of a few winners here.
> 
> It's worth noting that, in inflation-adjusted terms, most markets are down about 16% more than what their nominal value on a chart shows.  It seems like the only investors who take note of that are bond investors, but it affects all investments equally.



you're making my point, if crypto with their own specific problems are at the same level as DOW, S&P, etc... then it's an amazing place to be.


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## ThrashZone (Dec 22, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> You can say the same exact thing of essentially all markets.  NAS, DOW, S&P, even things like Gold have not moved substantially from late 2020 levels.  Oil is one of a few winners here.
> 
> It's worth noting that, in inflation-adjusted terms, most markets are down about 16% more than what their nominal value on a chart shows.  It seems like the only investors who take note of that are bond investors, but it affects all investments equally.


Hi,
Taking away that sweet cheap money tends to slow things down 
Way to may interest rate increases to go unnoticed.


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> you're making my point, if crypto with their own specific problems are at the same level as DOW, S&P, etc... then it's an amazing place to be.



Or alternately, none of them are a good place to be.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 22, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Or alternately, none of them are a good place to be.



that's insane optimism if you're telling me you'd expect crypto to do better


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> that's insane optimism if you're telling me you'd expect crypto to do better



I view crypto as the most risk-on speculative item in existence, second only to NFTs. 

As such, it's a bell-weather.  If it's holding up, the pain level is nowhere near high enough.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 22, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I view crypto as the most risk-on speculative item in existence, second only to NFTs.
> 
> As such, it's a bell-weather.  If it's holding up, the pain level is nowhere near high enough.



i sold my reddit avatar for 300usd so i can only say NFT's are amazing. Definitely the future and everyone should buy more


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## RandallFlagg (Dec 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> i sold my reddit avatar for 300usd so i can only say NFT's are amazing. Definitely the future and everyone should buy more











						Ponzi scheme - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Bomby569 (Dec 22, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Ponzi scheme - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i don't think it applies to NFT's. They are just plain stupid. It doesn't enter my mind how people go for this. And mind you not everybody is in it for resale. I had so many offers for it on reddit, some clearly to resale but some really wanted to use it.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Dec 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> i don't think it applies to NFT's. They are just plain stupid. It doesn't enter my mind how people go for this. And mind you not everybody is in it for resale. I had so many offers for it on reddit, some clearly to resale but some really wanted to use it.



The NFT market has some, uh, unique factors behind it, but it mostly resembles a regular speculation bubble more than a Ponzi scheme to me.


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## dragontamer5788 (Dec 23, 2022)

SBF Posted a $250,000,000 bail (or at least, his parents posted the bail for him).

Gotta be nice to have rich parents.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 23, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> SBF Posted a $250,000,000 bail (or at least, his parents posted the bail for him).
> 
> Gotta be nice to have rich parents.



kind of unfair that someone that made so many people lose so much money can still be out of jail even on bail. He better not go out much and find some of the people he stole from


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## trog100 (Dec 23, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> kind of unfair that someone that made so many people lose so much money can still be out of jail even on bail. He better not go out much and find some of the people he stole from



he is under house arrest with his parents not exactly free.. ether way this thing goes deeper than we know about..

trog


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 23, 2022)

trog100 said:


> ether way this thing goes deeper than we know about..


Very likely.


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## Anoldnewb (Dec 24, 2022)

Papahyooie said:


> I think we're needlessly tripping over the phrase "in general." Crypto is good for freedom of any sort, is what I mean. It has some specific uses that aid in creating a more free society, sure. But it's also just good for freedom as an idea. For some of us, freedom is not a means, but an end. I also think we don't agree on the meaning of freedom in the first place, so here. Read this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The USD and GBP are not inexorably linked, the exchange rate between them varies according to their relative desirability. For example when LizTruss proposed a set of ill considered economic reforms, the GBP plummeted since the reforms made investing in the UK (and holding GBP) less desirable.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 30, 2022)

Luna/Terra and FTX really did a number on crypto, let's hope 2023 brings less crypto scum


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## ThrashZone (Dec 30, 2022)

Hi,
Hope all crypo is next to fall it's bs anyway as proven.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 31, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Hope all crypo is next to fall it's bs anyway as proven.



i disagree, crypto is a good idea ruined by bad people, general greed, low lifes that want to get rich with no work.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Hope all crypo is next to fall it's bs anyway as proven.


That or come under regulations.


Bomby569 said:


> i disagree, crypto is a good idea ruined by bad people, general greed, low lifes that want to get rich with no work.


And those bad actors are doing what they're doing because cryptocoin is unregulated. It's worthless unless clearly defined and strictly controls rules and laws are in place. It either needs to die and go away or be just as regulated as normal currencies.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That or come under regulations.
> 
> And those bad actors are doing what they're doing because cryptocoin is unregulated. It's worthless unless clearly defined and strictly controls rules and laws are in place. It either needs to die and go away or be just as regulated as normal currencies.



that's a classic catch 21, if it was regulated it would just be another currency like fiat.

Crypto itself, the mechanics works just fine. Direct trading and wallets have no problem. All that surrounds it, that's the problem, the exchanges, the alt coins, the shit coins, the nfts, the endless scams.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> that's a classic catch 21


You mean Catch 22? There is no catch 21.


Bomby569 said:


> Crypto itself, the mechanics works just fine.


No, it doesn't as shown over the last 9 years. 4 major valuation crashes, untold amounts of corrupt, dishonest and criminal activity. That's not a great definition of "fine".


Bomby569 said:


> Direct trading and wallets have no problem. All that surrounds it, that's the problem, the exchanges, the alt coins, the shit coins, the nfts, the endless scams.


But that's the problem, you can't have one without all the others. In an unregulated state, it's a very broken and deeply flawed system.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> But that's the problem, you can't have one without all the others.


that's not true, you don't need exchanges, alt coins, etc... and without it there would be no scams or scammers, "hacks" or crypto dishonests

we can just agree to exchange goods and crypto without any 3rd party intervention


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> that's not true, you don't need exchanges, alt coins, etc... and without it there would be no scams or scammers, "hacks" or crypto dishonests
> 
> we can just agree to exchange goods and crypto without any 3rd party intervention


But they're going to happen. You can't have the open cryptocoin system the way it is without every sleazy nitwit & their dog creating garbage avenues of exploitation. In an ideal world were everyone was perfectly honest(or even close to it) the open cryptocoin market would work very well with a minimum of problems. But this isn't an ideal world and people are NOT anywhere close to being honest, let alone perfectly so. It's a system for a perfect world. Earth isn't perfect and is unlikely to ever be so.


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## Bomby569 (Dec 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> But they're going to happen. You can't have the open cryptocoin system the way it is without every sleazy nitwit & their dog creating garbage avenues of exploitation. In an ideal world were everyone was perfectly honest(or even close to it) the open cryptocoin market would work very well with a minimum of problems. But this isn't an ideal world and people are NOT anywhere close to being honest, let alone perfectly so. It's a system for a perfect world. Earth isn't perfect and is unlikely to ever be so.



I agree, and i also thing regulations is the lesser evil. *But the ideal was cutting back on the crap, crypto to pay for goods in a direct wallet exchange, period*. I really want to emphasise this

Anything else it's its death, the current status quo or regulations that turn it into a fiat with another name, with taxes, regulated and controlled by a few individuals by exchanges, alt coins, stable coins etc...

I believe it will go back to what i said, eventually.


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## ThrashZone (Dec 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> You mean Catch 22? There is no catch 21.


Hi,
Sure catch 21 more crypo thieves


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## TheinsanegamerN (Tuesday at 7:55 PM)

lexluthermiester said:


> But they're going to happen. You can't have the open cryptocoin system the way it is without every sleazy nitwit & their dog creating garbage avenues of exploitation. In an ideal world were everyone was perfectly honest(or even close to it) the open cryptocoin market would work very well with a minimum of problems. But this isn't an ideal world and people are NOT anywhere close to being honest, let alone perfectly so. It's a system for a perfect world. Earth isn't perfect and is unlikely to ever be so.


Lets be honest, if we did live in such a perfect world, where people were honest, crypto wouldnt exist anyway. The idea was given life thanks to the 2008 crash that was fueled by greed and lies.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Tuesday at 8:45 PM)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Lets be honest, if we did live in such a perfect world, where people were honest, crypto wouldnt exist anyway. The idea was given life thanks to the 2008 crash that was fueled by greed and lies.



That connection seems tenuous to me.  Could you elaborate?


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## RandallFlagg (Tuesday at 10:26 PM)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Lets be honest, if we did live in such a perfect world, where people were honest, crypto wouldnt exist anyway. The idea was given life thanks to the 2008 crash that was fueled by greed and lies.



I fail to see the distinction between "greed and lies" and "crypto".


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## lexluthermiester (Yesterday at 5:30 AM)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Lets be honest, if we did live in such a perfect world, where people were honest, crypto wouldnt exist anyway.


This is true!



80-watt Hamster said:


> That connection seems tenuous to me. Could you elaborate?


If you need that explanation, it's likely something that would take longer than anyone would likely want to spend the time to explain. However, the short version, if everyone(including governments and companies) was completely honest, normal money in both physical and electronic form would be more than enough for everyone's needs.


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## Bomby569 (Yesterday at 9:10 AM)

Coinbase lays off nearly 1,000 more employees, blaming FTX 'contagion' and economic downturn
					

The company plans to reduce operating expenses by 25 percent.




					www.pcgamer.com
				




"everything is fine"
"your money is safe"


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## Chomiq (Today at 11:43 AM)

FTX: Collapsed crypto giant recovers over $5bn of assets
					

The firm's former chief executive Sam Bankman-Fried is accused of orchestrating an "epic" fraud.



					www.bbc.com
				



$5bn, huh. Pocket money for some folks.


----------

