# DirectX 11.2 Exclusive to Windows 8.1 and Xbox One



## btarunr (Jul 4, 2013)

Our recent editorial on adoption of Windows 8.1 by PC enthusiasts concluded saying "...and Microsoft isn't stopping with its innovations that will get increasingly out of reach for Windows 7 users." It looks like the first of such innovations is DirectX 11.2. Microsoft revealed that the latest version of its multimedia API will require Windows 8.1 on the PC, and comes built into its next-generation Xbox One console. With this, Microsoft established that you will need Windows 8.1 or later, to access future versions of DirectX.

Microsoft has often used the tactic of limiting DirectX versions to certain versions of Windows, often citing driver-model changes, to force PC enthusiasts to either upgrade, or lag behind in PC technology, and in the past it worked. Windows XP capped out at DirectX 9.0c, forcing gamers to upgrade to Windows Vista, to experience cutting-edge games of the time, such as "Crysis," with new visual effects that DirectX 10 brought to the scene. DirectX 11.0 had the unique distinction of spanning across Windows Vista and Windows 7. DirectX 11.1 was exclusive to Windows 8 and above, as it required WDDM 1.2 (Windows display driver model). The Direct3D component of the API didn't bring anything substantial to the scene. With Windows 8.1, Microsoft is introducing DirectX 11.2, it requires WDDM 1.3, which the operating system introduces. Since Windows 8.1 will be offered as a free upgrade to current Windows 8 users, it's effectively the Windows 7 user-base, that's being asked to take a hike.



DirectX 11.2 introduces a few new Direct3D features that could matter to games. The "D3D tiled resources" feature is analogous to OpenGL MegaTexture, implemented on id Software's "Rage." The feature offers a better alternative to the current model of streaming textures as a 3D scene is being rendered; by letting developers use larger textures that are fewer in number. Portions of these giant monolithic textures would be accessed by an application, as they become relevant to the scene being rendered. The complete texture needn't be loaded to the memory. In essence, mega-textures heralds a sort of virtual memory system to GPUs, and shifts the focus from increasingly larger video memory to faster memory. 

With Windows 7 user-base being cut out from DirectX 11.2, game developers may think twice before spending time to implement D3D tiled resources, but there's also Xbox One to consider. DirectX 11.2 is at the heart of the console, and Microsoft could recommend developers to take advantage of tiled resources, to optimally use the console's limited hardware resources. That could hasten the adoption of DirectX 11.2 by developers, on the PC front.

Among the features DirectX 11.2 introduces are: 
HLSL shader linking
Inbox HLSL compiler
GPU overlay support
DirectX tiled resources
Direct3D low-latency presentation API
DXGI Trim API and map default buffer
Frame buffer scaling
Multithreading with SurfaceImageSource
Interactive Microsoft DirectX composition of XAML visual elements
Direct2D batching with SurfaceImageSource

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## raptori (Jul 4, 2013)

Good joke micro$oft.


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## cheesy999 (Jul 4, 2013)

I remember this being news somewhere a while ago

What's changed from something like this --> http://vr-zone.com/articles/directx...es-to-windows-8-1-and-the-xbox-one/41876.html ? (googled direct x11.2)


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## progste (Jul 4, 2013)

It would be so cool if OpenGl became the standard for any new game so we could leave microsoft and their exclusive bull****


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## scoutingwraith (Jul 4, 2013)

Honestly why am i not surprised here. I actually expected them to this sooner to be honest. Anyway on topic. I cant remember but i was reading that people without Windows 8.1 will be able to utilize some of the features but it wont be in full effect. (meaning software mode of some kind)


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## btarunr (Jul 4, 2013)

cheesy999 said:


> What's changed from something like this



That users of older Windows versions are cut out.


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## erocker (Jul 4, 2013)

Sorry if I missed it, but is there any official date for the launch of 8.1?


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## btarunr (Jul 4, 2013)

erocker said:


> Sorry if I missed it, but is there any official date for the launch of 8.1?



Some say October 23, others "late 2013."


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 4, 2013)

gamers should be using linux. it is time for the devs to move over to the open platform and work with opengl. let the consumer have a real say and not let microsoft push people around.


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## lZKoce (Jul 4, 2013)

Same thing with DirectX 10.1 - I didn't even know it existed for a while. As if 11.2 is gonna rock the "experience". Nothing to worry about in my opinion.


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## btarunr (Jul 4, 2013)

lZKoce said:


> Same thing with DirectX 10.1 - I didn't even know it existed for a while. As if 11.2 is gonna rock the "experience". Nothing to worry about in my opinion.



That's what Windows 98 users said about DirectX 9.0c.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 4, 2013)

So DX11.2 will be totaly irrelevant and devs won't use it, got it.



Easy Rhino said:


> gamers should be using linux. it is time for the devs to move over to the open platform and work with opengl. let the consumer have a real say and not let microsoft push people around.



People don't need to use Linux to get OpenGL...


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 4, 2013)

lets see Direct X 11 launched in October 2009 

first games to truly use DX11 came out in March with the majority releasing in September 2010

so thats 5 months till the first title and 11 months for the first wave of titles

nothings used DX11.1 
nothing really used 10.1

DX 11.2 being Windows 8 exclusive and being an OS with only 5% of the market means no developer will make use of it since Windows 7 still holds 44% and climbing.

So in reality no developer will use DX11.2 because it makes the user base so tiny as to make the game a straight up failure. So theres no reason to even worry about it as it stands lol.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 4, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> lets see Direct X 11 launched in October 2009
> 
> first games to truly use DX11 came out in March with the majority releasing in September 2010
> 
> ...



But its required for next gen consoles, since the GPU and CPU are pulling memory from the same pool. That's really all 11.2 does. Allows CPU and GPU to have access to the same memory.



Easy Rhino said:


> gamers should be using linux. it is time for the devs to move over to the open platform and work with opengl. let the consumer have a real say and not let microsoft push people around.



All I can say to this is...


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2013)

Don't underestimate the power of Xbone.  Because developers have to code for 11.2 means they have no reason not to use 11.2 for Windows titles as well.  Of course, they'll have to put some backwards compatibility in the Windows release but there should be strong support for 11.2 on Windows soon after Xbone launches.


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## birdie (Jul 4, 2013)

Ah, journalism.

Crysis 1 had no extra effects in DirectX 10 mode - via a special hack all those things were made available in DX9.0c.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 4, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> But its required for next gen consoles, since the GPU and CPU are pulling memory from the same pool. That's really all 11.2 does. Allows CPU and GPU to have access to the same memory.



It isn't required, it is optional.  In fact since none of the dev units support DX11.2, I can almost guarantee that none of the launch titles will use DX11.2.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Don't underestimate the power of Xbone.  Because developers have to code for 11.2 means they have no reason not to use 11.2 for Windows titles as well.  Of course, they'll have to put some backwards compatibility in the Windows release but there should be strong support for 11.2 on Windows soon after Xbone launches.



Who says they have to code for DX 11.2?  The console will still support DX11/11.1, developers don't have to use 11.2.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 4, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> So DX11.2 will be totaly irrelevant and devs won't use it, got it.
> 
> 
> 
> People don't need to use Linux to get OpenGL...



true, but they can only use opengl if they are using linux. and since we wont see real opengl development so long as microsoft keeps forcing directx on people then there is no choice but to ditch windows all together. people who game on windows are as bad as console gamers in my opinion when it comes to being all high and mighty.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 4, 2013)

birdie said:


> Ah, journalism.
> 
> Crysis 1 had no extra effects in DirectX 10 mode - via a special hack all those things were made available in DX9.0c.



Yeah, you had to use a *HACK* to get those effects for DX9.0c.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 4, 2013)

As a member of the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race I say your comment is rubbish!


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 4, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> As a member of the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race I say your comment is rubbish!



lol! windows is becoming as closed as consoles. microsoft is certainly leading things in that direction. walled gardens are terrible for gamers because it forces devs into a box. if you want a wide variety of games available the open platform is all you really have.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 4, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> true, but they can only use opengl if they are using linux. and since we wont see real opengl development so long as microsoft keeps forcing directx on people then there is no choice but to ditch windows all together. people who game on windows are as bad as console gamers in my opinion when it comes to being all high and mighty.



I run OpenGL games on Windows every day.  So, no, you don't have to be using linux to use OpenGL.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 4, 2013)

Keep on trolling Rhino eventually they will listen


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## birdie (Jul 4, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Yeah, you had to use a *HACK* to get those effects for DX9.0c.



Ah, trolls.

That wasn't really a hack. That tiny utility just changed a few undocumented parameters in the configuration file if I remember correctly.

Crysis was mainly coded in DX9.0c and limited some features only if it ran under Windows XP.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 4, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> I run OpenGL games on Windows every day.  So, no, you don't have to be using linux to use OpenGL.



you missed my point. if devs want an open environment they should do it on linux. linux only has opengl not directx. get gamers to switch to linux and you get better opengl development.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 4, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Keep on trolling Rhino eventually they will listen



By that time Ill be dead, so I guess that's a good thing.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 4, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> you missed my point. if devs want an open environment they should do it on linux. linux only has opengl not directx. get gamers to switch to linux and you get better opengl development.



Get gamers to buy the PS4 and you'll get better OpenGL developement.

Seriously though, with the PS4 using OpenGL, I see a shift towards OpenGL as the game standard, since games will be extremely easy to port from the PS4 to Windows and OSX and Linux.  I wouldn't be surprised if devs start developing for the PS4 originally, in OpenGL, so they can easily porting the game to PC/OSX/Linux, and then porting the game to Xbone.


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## btarunr (Jul 4, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> you missed my point. if devs want an open environment they should do it on linux. linux only has opengl not directx.



I think he meant that OpenGL can be had on Windows, too. 



Easy Rhino said:


> get gamers to switch to linux and you get better opengl development.



There was a time when most AAA games on Windows were made for OpenGL. Besides, there's nothing on OpenGL on Linux that you don't have on OpenGL on Windows. OpenGL and its ICD (client driver) are supplied by GPU makers (in their drivers), anyway.



birdie said:


> Ah, journalism.
> 
> Crysis 1 had no extra effects in DirectX 10 mode - via a special hack all those things were made available in DX9.0c.



Ah, people who can't read.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 4, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> Get gamers to buy the PS4 and you'll get better OpenGL developement.
> 
> Seriously though, with the PS4 using OpenGL, I see a shift towards OpenGL as the game standard, since games will be extremely easy to port from the PS4 to Windows and OSX and Linux.  I wouldn't be surprised if devs start developing for the PS4 originally, in OpenGL, so they can easily porting the game to PC/OSX/Linux, and then porting the game to Xbone.



oooh, that is good news indeed!


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## Mckertis (Jul 4, 2013)

btarunr said:


> That's what Windows 98 users said about DirectX 9.0c.


Maybe, but honestly, DX10 STILL pretty much is, as if it didnt exist at all.



> Don't underestimate the power of Xbone.


Power is the least important aspect of a console. Never was important. Never will.


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## erocker (Jul 4, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> you missed my point. if devs want an open environment they should do it on linux. linux only has opengl not directx. get gamers to switch to linux and you get better opengl development.



It truly makes the most sense. Thing is, things that make the most sense in this world aren't usually the things that are implemented.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> Who says they have to code for DX 11.2?  The console will still support DX11/11.1, developers don't have to use 11.2.


There's no incentive for backwards compatibility on Xbone (e.g. fewer support calls).


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## birdie (Jul 4, 2013)

btarunr said:


> Ah, people who can't read.



Really?



> such as "Crysis," with *new visual effects that DirectX 10* brought to the scene



An obvious lie. DirectX indeed brought new effects, but surely that wasn't Crysis that had them.


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## SaltyFish (Jul 4, 2013)

The very fact that multi-platform releases have to work with the PS4 (and possibly the WiiU) means that DX11.2 will only be seen on Microsoft exclusives.

OpenGL FTW!


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## hellrazor (Jul 4, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Yeah, you had to use a *HACK* to get those effects for DX9.0c.



Bullshit, it was a small pile of boolean values, any retard with a hex editor could have figured it out.


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## AlienIsGOD (Jul 4, 2013)

hellrazor said:


> Bullshit, it was a small pile of boolean values, any retard with a hex editor could have figured it out.



this, i know NOTHING about hex editors but was able to learn on the fly and easily modded my NHL 09 PC version to support latest rinks and jerseys


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## ice_v (Jul 4, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> Get gamers to buy the PS4 and you'll get better OpenGL developement.
> 
> Seriously though, with the PS4 using OpenGL, I see a shift towards OpenGL as the game standard, since games will be extremely easy to port from the PS4 to Windows and OSX and Linux.  I wouldn't be surprised if devs start developing for the PS4 originally, in OpenGL, so they can easily porting the game to PC/OSX/Linux, and then porting the game to Xbone.



"...and then port the game to Xbone" or just middle-finger the damn thing directly in the name of competition and stick with the PS4 and/or PC with win7 64bit  

Seriously though I think it's just another way to patch the fact that the hardware of the xbone is somewhat inferior to the PS4's or at least it needs more working on it just to get the goods out...and these 11.2 are just that tool the devs could use to better do that. And like someone else said it won't be used on the first games... so only time will tell how much relevance the newest APIs will actually have


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## Deadlyraver (Jul 4, 2013)

Simply put, Microsoft is in panic mode for the casual users and gamers. I mean I was fooled enough by DirectX 9 but DirectX 11 seemed to be a fairly good improvement. But now, they are just trying to get a selling point that could be any what meaningful for the industry. Its too bad that in order for the idea to really work, they gotta not only convince the gamers but the Dev community as well in one swift move.

To the gamers with half of our IQ, go ahead and purchase these products not knowing that the features are mostly pointless.


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 4, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> lets see Direct X 11 launched in October 2009
> 
> first games to truly use DX11 came out in March with the majority releasing in September 2010
> 
> ...



I couldn't have said it better myself, except to say 11.2 will be irrelevant for several years.  The majority of games that have come out in the last several years have all been DirectX 9.0c.  

It doesn't matter what is AVAILABLE, game developers will focus on the majority of the market, and like you said, windows 7 numbers are still climbing.  So that means several more years of 9.0c (although in fewer numbers) and 11.0 games (not 11.1 or 11.2) are what we will continue to see.


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## BiggieShady (Jul 5, 2013)

rtwjunkie said:


> So that means several more years of 9.0c (although in fewer numbers) and 11.0 games (not 11.1 or 11.2) are what we will continue to see.



Current mode where you have DX9 minimum and can turn "on" DX11 features in games will prevail in the future.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 5, 2013)

Also, I seem to recall making the same argument when you had to have Vista to get DX10.


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## RejZoR (Jul 5, 2013)

Great, now if you'll want to use latest and greatest DirectX features, you'll have to go with the bullshit GUI design from Win8, its dumb Start menu, dumb touch crap, shitty control panel design and crappy task switching in the top left corner... Microsoft, just sod off with such crap... this could easily be supplied to Windows 7 but they just want to push the Win8 crap, don't they, giving us zero alternative to all the bullshit they are doing lately with their OS. Sure it's decently fast but that's about it as far as Windows 8 goes. Everything on top of it is garbage and i hate it. And i'm not the only one. But they just keep on sticking their thick heads through new and new layers of brick walls. I just don't get their moronic logic...


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## D007 (Jul 5, 2013)

Except we already covered that NO games are using these features and they amount to absolutely nothing in the gaming world.

No games will be using these features within the next few years either. Most people aren't even using DX11 yet to it's full potential.

In short.. Who cares?


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 5, 2013)

Help me wrap my head around this.

At the beginning of Vista MS introduced directx 10.  This was supposed to move operating system sales, and be a feature integral to new games.

At the beginning of 7 MS said they'd introduce directx 11.  Almost none of the newest games had feature support for directx 10, and those that did had them almost universally hidden because the consumer base had given Vista the finger.


Now people bought into 7, because it was a genuine improvement over xp.  There were quibbles, but a functional 64 bit variant, better performance, and a smaller footprint had 7 beating out xp in almost every metric.

Windows 8 was introduced, with a ham-fisted attempt to unify the windows experience.  People couldn't, and still can't, look past the UI for the incremental improvements.  Rather than addressing the issue, MS gives people back a feature from the old UI without regards for what is actually being asked.  People offer the same finger back to MS, that it offered them.

Knowing that OS sales are stagnating, MS introduces a new variant of directx just like the one packaged with Vista.  They think that this time it will work, because their console will have it.  Of course, the directx variant hasn't yet been released.  This means that launch titles will not be able to use it, and the as yet unreleased OS won't see anything that uses it for a solid year.

So we have one of two situations here; MS hasn't talked to itself internally or they are raging idiots.  The first conclusion is valid if the xbox arm hasn't been kept in the loop with the OS arm.  If the struggles of the OS haven't been made clear, a person at the top could dictate the (for the sake of the Windows experience) inclusion of a new directx variant in the console to match the new OS.  

This would be logical, assuming three things weren't true.  MS has gone with slower RAM than Sony, so sharing that pool seems like a desperate effort to make it work better based on the aging directx standard.  MS is giving away free upgrades to 8 users, basically saying that 8.1 is not bringing enough value to users to justify the cost of a new OS.  Finally, the MS track record speaks volumes.  They don't listen to customer feedback, crush dissenting views rather than understanding and addressing them, and developers are the ones being put in a tight place here.  Who would spend valuable resources coding for 11.2 when the features can't be ported to another console, and only a small percentage of PC users might see the benefits?  My money is on MS drawing a line in the sand, and telling the sea of change that they'll stab it if it crosses the line.  In short, MS is being stupid.


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## OnePostWonder (Jul 5, 2013)

btarunr said:


> That users of older Windows versions are cut out.



In the 3 minute video on that page, the speaker says, "In fact, this is only possible on a Windows 8.1 machine or on a next generation gaming console, like the Xbox One."

So isn't it more-so a case of being a bit late with the news?


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## scoutingwraith (Jul 5, 2013)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Help me wrap my head around this.
> 
> At the beginning of Vista MS introduced directx 10.  This was supposed to move operating system sales, and be a feature integral to new games.
> 
> ...



To add to the paragraph Microsoft may say that they will introduce the new DX update but developers will not cater to the small market. They will cater to the the largest market available at the time of making the game. Essentially making the new DX tech irrelevant for a while.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 5, 2013)

One question , so far as tiled resources, doesn't id's rage do that via software trickery?.
Anyway they should listen to some of the people and upgrade win7 instead of trying to strong arm the money off us , I paid a decent amount for win 7  ulty dont I deserve a bit of loyalty and service.


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## KainXS (Jul 5, 2013)

Users: Please put the start button back in Microsoft.
Microsoft: OK we will put back the start button.
Users: This start button you put sucks MS please fix it.
Microsoft: Naaa you fix it yourself but you can take this, DX11.2 for the Xbox One and 8.1.
Users: But most people don't care about that and most developers won't even use it.
Micosoft: Someone will, and thats all that matters so you can eat a ****.


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## ViperXTR (Jul 5, 2013)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> One question , so far as tiled resources, doesn't id's rage do that via software trickery?.


Megatexture?


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## razaron (Jul 5, 2013)

This just in, Windows 9 (name pending) will have an exclusive version of DirectX.


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## TheLostSwede (Jul 5, 2013)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Help me wrap my head around this.
> 
> At the beginning of Vista MS introduced directx 10.  This was supposed to move operating system sales, and be a feature integral to new games.
> 
> ...




Very well written, you should apply for a job as a writer here


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## AsRock (Jul 5, 2013)

Nice, MS pushing people once again although it might be a lot different now when Linux is much more available and known about and OpenGL has matured a hell load since when it was used a lot...

But they have money to do this so wont really bother them all that much but what it will do is help steam sell games on Linux haha.

Must be fun to be able to play dangerous games when you have money.  And all so at the expense of others too. 

I guess it could go the other way as no one ends up using the 11.2 HAHA.


Other wise well done Microsoft you might have found me a way to save money buying a OS and making phones to people who don't speak english


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## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Jul 5, 2013)




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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 5, 2013)

Random thought: this has more in common with Shadowrun being Windows Vista only than DirectX 10 being Vista only.  Strip the DRM and Shadowrun works on XP; strip the DRM on DirectX 10 and DirectX 10 still doesn't work on XP.  Someone will likely figure out a way to make DirectX 11.2 work on Windows 8 and Windows 7 (maybe Windows Vista too).  There is no major structural change to warrant no backwards compatibility.  Like Shadowrun, it was just Microsoft trying to get people to buy newer Windows to use software; like Shadowrun, it won't work.


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## OnePostWonder (Jul 5, 2013)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> One question , so far as tiled resources, doesn't id's rage do that via software trickery?.
> Anyway they should listen to some of the people and upgrade win7 instead of trying to strong arm the money off us , I paid a decent amount for win 7  ulty dont I deserve a bit of loyalty and service.





ViperXTR said:


> Megatexture?



Tiled Resources for Xbox 360 and Direct3D 11

*Click details*.  So does this mean tiled resources aren't new and only the way they're implemented in Windows 8.1 / next-gen consoles is?

*EDIT:*  I wanted to note that btarunr's editorial mentions tiled resources being "analogous to OpenGL MegaTexture, implemented on id Software's 'Rage'".


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 5, 2013)

Everyone in this thread is just butt hurt and crying like 12 year old girls on their first ovulation because they are going to have to upgrade to get the latest DX.

Linux sucks for games.....and everything else unless you were born with a slide ruler shoved up your ass.
Mac is late getting games and they hardly get AAA titles nevermind the premium on hardware.

So at the end of the day this whole thread is the inevitable fact all you people bitching will be upgrading to windows 8. Taste that?...........That's what they call crow.


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## AsRock (Jul 5, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Everyone in this thread is just butt hurt and crying like 12 year old girls on their first ovulation because they are going to have to upgrade to get the latest DX.
> 
> Linux sucks for games.....and everything else unless you were born with a slide ruler shoved up your ass.
> Mac is late getting games and they hardly get AAA titles nevermind the premium on hardware.
> ...





That's what they call BOLLOCKS.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 5, 2013)

AsRock said:


> That's what they call BOLLOCKS.



I know, I know.....just like the high and mighty PC race was gonna protest Call of Duty.


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## TRWOV (Jul 5, 2013)

RejZoR said:


> Great, now if you'll want to use latest and greatest DirectX features, you'll have to go with the bullshit GUI design from Win8, its dumb Start menu, dumb touch crap, shitty control panel design and crappy task switching in the top left corner... Microsoft, just sod off with such crap... this could easily be supplied to Windows 7 but they just want to push the Win8 crap, don't they, giving us zero alternative to all the bullshit they are doing lately with their OS. Sure it's decently fast but that's about it as far as Windows 8 goes. Everything on top of it is garbage and i hate it. And i'm not the only one. But they just keep on sticking their thick heads through new and new layers of brick walls. I just don't get their moronic logic...





Control panel in W8 (windows+x > control panel):





Task switch (alt+tab):


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 5, 2013)

Just thought of something else besides the fact we likely won't see any game coding beyond 11.0 for several years....the hardware front. If I'm not mistaken, the newest Nvidia cards, the 7 series, are all stuck at 11.1.

So unless the majority of 7 card owners are independently wealthy, this pushiness by MS matters not in the least, because most will be rocking those same cards for 2-3 years, some even longer.  Game developers will be conscious of this fact too.


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## Mussels (Jul 5, 2013)

btarunr said:


> Some say October 23, others "late 2013."



thats my birthday. MS always releases stuff on my birthday.


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## btarunr (Jul 5, 2013)

Mussels said:


> thats my birthday. MS always releases stuff on my birthday.



Expect Radeon HD 9970 on that day, too.


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## xtremesv (Jul 5, 2013)

rtwjunkie said:


> Just thought of something else besides the fact we likely won't see any game coding beyond 11.0 for several years....the hardware front. If I'm not mistaken, the newest Nvidia cards, the 7 series, are all stuck at 11.1.
> 
> So unless the majority of 7 card owners are independently wealthy, this pushiness by MS matters not in the least, because most will be rocking those same cards for 2-3 years, some even longer.  Game developers will be conscious of this fact too.



My same thought exactly, people were forgetting that is not just Win 8.1 + DX 11.2 games, nvidia and AMD must play as well and certainly they're going to release their compatible GPU's but not every gamer out there buys every generation of graphics cards.

DX 11.2 might become relevant in 2 years not sooner. Enough for me to remain comfy in my Win 7 safe zone.

Yeah the Xbox influence could work but we should remember that console is only important in the US, the rest of the world is for PS4 and this time the gap will be wider. I know the US is the biggest videogames market but in 5-10 years that won't be enough.


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## Mussels (Jul 5, 2013)

whats the bet windows 9 comes out, with a better interface and works with all these 8.1 exclusive features, and everyone loves it because 'hey at least its not vista!'


oh sorry i meant to say win ME. i mean win 8.


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## jihadjoe (Jul 5, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> true, but they can only use opengl if they are using linux. and since we wont see real opengl development so long as microsoft keeps forcing directx on people then there is no choice but to ditch windows all together. people who game on windows are as bad as console gamers in my opinion when it comes to being all high and mighty.



I'd like to turn that around and say we won't see any real use of OpenGL until they do more development work on it and turn out something actually groundbreaking.

You forget that for a while OpenGL was the de-facto standard for gaming, even in Windows simply because it offered a superior feature set. After a while, OpenGL sort of stagnated while Microsoft picked up the pace on DX development. Between 2006 and 2008 there was nothing new on the OpenGL front. Meanwhile, DirectX has had pixel shaders since 2001 with DX8. DX was first to the table with hardware T&L, texture compression, a lot of other features. AFAIK bump mapped textures was the last time OGL held an advantage over DX.

OpenGL should never have been displaced by DirectX (Microsoft certainly had a hard time getting their standards in, remember what happened to WinG and the early versions of DX?), but sad to say the people behind the standard got lazy and complacent and they were rightfully displaced, and now it's up to them to come up with a superior feature set if they want developers to use them in favor of DX.


----------



## SIGSEGV (Jul 5, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Linux sucks for games.....and everything else unless you were born with a slide ruler shoved up your ass.



or it because you had some difficulties installing linux operating system in your rig ? 
let's see what will happen in the next future with PS4 runs with openGL API


----------



## hellrazor (Jul 5, 2013)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Help me wrap my head around this.
> 
> At the beginning of Vista MS introduced directx 10.  This was supposed to move operating system sales, and be a feature integral to new games.
> 
> ...



I think this is the best-written jumble of words that I have ever had the fortune to read on TPU. With that said, I believe that with the PS4 being the obvious winner so far, I believe that everybody will jump on the OpenGL bandwagon (as some people stated before) and the developers simply won't have to deal with these kinds of problems.


----------



## KashunatoR (Jul 5, 2013)

so the nvidia gtx 780 won't have dx 11.2 compatibility, will it?


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jul 5, 2013)

SIGSEGV said:


> let's see what will happen in the next future with PS4 runs with openGL API



Nothing will happen. PS3 was also better than Xbox and ran OpenGL API...


----------



## SIGSEGV (Jul 5, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> Nothing will happen. PS3 was also better than Xbox and ran OpenGL API...



have you ever heard about this before?


----------



## D007 (Jul 5, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Everyone in this thread is just butt hurt and crying like 12 year old girls on their first ovulation because they are going to have to upgrade to get the latest DX.
> 
> Linux sucks for games.....and everything else unless you were born with a slide ruler shoved up your ass.
> Mac is late getting games and they hardly get AAA titles nevermind the premium on hardware.
> ...




Coming from a guy that went from XP straight to windows 7, I can steadfastly say. 

Good day to you sir.
Not I..


----------



## RCoon (Jul 5, 2013)

Why you all haf to be mad? Is just directx...

Seriously. 11.2 will bring nothing of importance to us that we will care about for the next 5years. While consoles are still around, and likely wont do a great deal, if anything at all with 11.2, we wont get much from it when all those games are ported over anyway.

M$ has done this multiple times, and each time it never made a difference to any of us. Sure its a dick move, but its not going to hunder PC gamers who dont want Win 8 or 8.1 right now.


----------



## Frick (Jul 5, 2013)

Other than "D3D tiled resources", what is the big news? I honestly can see why they do this. They want more people to go to Windows 8, which is natural. And if it's at the heart of the Xbox One, is it using stuff that simply doesn't exist in earlier versions of Windows?

But as others have said, unless it brings something truly great to the table it doesn't really matter.

BTW, are you locked to DirectX when developing for the Xbox? I imagine you are, but I have no idea really.


----------



## Solidstate89 (Jul 5, 2013)

I don't see how this is a shock to anyone. Direct X 11.1 was Windows 8 exclusive, why wouldn't 11.2 be 8.1 exclusive?


----------



## BiggieShady (Jul 5, 2013)

Frick said:


> BTW, are you locked to DirectX when developing for the Xbox? I imagine you are, but I have no idea really.



Developers have to deal with special set of libraries tailored for xbox (cut down version of directx) and that's for developers of, let's say Unreal engine at Epic to worry. 
Game devs usually deal mostly with engine tools. 

For example, in Unreal engine you make your game with high detailed tesselated objects at max level of detail quality. 
When finished you deploy for xbox360 - only the low-mid quality LODs and shader pack for xbox is used.
When deploying for PC - both dx9 and dx11 shader pack is deployed and in settings if dx11 is detected, tesselation can be enabled. 
It's all transparent to the game developer these days.

As for shaders, when developing for the Xbox, you are locked to instruction set of the GPU because mostly to really optimize for the console, some parts of shaders are written in assembler. But again those are game engine developers, game devs usually know squat about these things.  They drag sliders to get armor to be more shiny.


----------



## ice_v (Jul 5, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Everyone in this thread is just butt hurt and crying like 12 year old girls on their first ovulation because they are going to have to upgrade to get the latest DX.
> 
> Linux sucks for games.....and everything else unless you were born with a slide ruler shoved up your ass.
> Mac is late getting games and they hardly get AAA titles nevermind the premium on hardware.
> ...



My Windows XP experience: from 26 July 2002 (yes I remember it because it was my birthday and my present was my very first own PC which came with Win XP) to December 2009 when under Xmas holidays I joyed the very first days of my Win 7 64 bit on my rig...so that makes 7 years and 5 months of XP and I'm darn well willing to make about the same amount of time for Win 7...so I think I'll talk to you around 2016 about upgrading my OS...that's what I call coherence


----------



## Tatty_One (Jul 5, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Everyone in this thread is just butt hurt and crying like 12 year old girls on their first ovulation because they are going to have to upgrade to get the latest DX.
> 
> Linux sucks for games.....and everything else unless you were born with a slide ruler shoved up your ass.
> Mac is late getting games and they hardly get AAA titles nevermind the premium on hardware.
> ...



Taking your comments into account, and games development in reaction to the introduction of DX10 and DX11, as long as users upgrade to Win 8.1 by around 2015/16 then they will miss out on very little in reality


----------



## mab1376 (Jul 5, 2013)

This is exactly why Valve is porting their games to Linux.


----------



## LiveOrDie (Jul 5, 2013)

Sweet free upgrade


----------



## vega22 (Jul 5, 2013)

once steam gets linux support i wont need to use windows....


----------



## devguy (Jul 5, 2013)

marsey99 said:


> once steam gets linux support i wont need to use windows....



It does have Linux support...


----------



## Frick (Jul 5, 2013)

marsey99 said:


> once steam gets linux support i wont need to use windows....



It already has, as stated, but that does not mean all Steam games work with Linux.


----------



## Ebo (Jul 5, 2013)

Does it really matter, just wait for win 9, who cares


----------



## omnimodis78 (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm not buying most of the hate speech on here about what Microsoft decided to do with 11.2  Firstly, it's clearly meant for their console, so putting it on the PC is sort of just a secondary thing, I'm sure of it.  Yeah, I do agree that Windows 7 could very easily get full 11.1 and 11.2, but again, this isn't anything new.  You want the "best" version of something, then get the latest software edition, 8.1 being just that.  And yes, I think developers will utilize 11.2 more than some of you think, because if it's on the console, and it actually makes a quantifiable difference to use it (and it does), then it will get used...and that will most likely find it on the PC ported side of things also.  Time will tell I guess.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 5, 2013)

SIGSEGV said:


> or it because you had some difficulties installing linux operating system in your rig ?
> let's see what will happen in the next future with PS4 runs with openGL API



Nope. Installed Mint for a week realized its as user friendly as a colonoscopy and went back to windows. I mean honesty you guys ain't fooling anyone. If DX is no big deal why the 80 something posts of butt hurt raging. This forum has become so predictable. If you guys can't afford Windows 8 that's fine. But don't trash it because you can't afford it. That's very unbecoming of a technology forum member.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 5, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Nope. Installed Mint for a week realized its as user friendly as a colonoscopy and went back to windows. I mean honesty you guys ain't fooling anyone. If DX is no big deal why the 80 something posts of butt hurt raging. This forum has become so predictable. If you guys can't afford Windows 8 that's fine. But don't trash it because you can't afford it. That's very unbecoming of a technology forum member.



Some own win8 but don't like thr ui so much they don't use it.
I get what your saying but id rather ms levied better features , content and connect ability then just cut off features from 7 , its the bs strongarming that's unnecessary and annoying, oh and since you don't have a point bar were all dicks stop trollin.


----------



## Fourstaff (Jul 5, 2013)

DirectX 9c is still usable by almost all major releases out there, so can you please tell me why are we bitching about DX11.2?


----------



## BigMack70 (Jul 5, 2013)

Nothing even uses DX11 fully yet, this is meaningless. Show me some games that benefit first and then we can talk about buying POS 8.1


----------



## Deadlyraver (Jul 6, 2013)

BigMack70 said:


> Nothing even uses DX11 fully yet, this is meaningless. Show me some games that benefit first and then we can talk about buying POS 8.1



Good call.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 6, 2013)

Good lord, I think we need a............







For a few in this thread. 

What I truly don't understand is why people don't use windows 8, and then if they hate the UI so much, use Start8 or Classic Shell? That way you get all the performance enhancements, while staying with your beloved Windows 7 UI. 

Unless Windows 8 does not support software you use on a daily basis, or manufacture of a specific hardware or device doesn't have drivers for windows 8, theres not much of a reason to not use Windows 8 with all the options out there to get it to function like Windows 7 in minutes.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 6, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> What I truly don't understand is why people don't use windows 8, and then if they hate the UI so much, use Start8 or Classic Shell? That way you get all the performance enhancements, while staying with your beloved Windows 7 UI.
> 
> Unless Windows 8 does not support software you use on a daily basis, or manufacture of a specific hardware or device doesn't have drivers for windows 8, theres not much of a reason to not use Windows 8 with all the options out there to get it to function like Windows 7 in minutes.



I've been using Win8 since pre-release, and all the performance enhancements aren't noticeable.  The only one that might be noticeable would be booting from a HDD, and even then the difference is seconds, and if you are using an SSD the difference it totally unnoticeable.  Everything else the difference in performance is totally unnoticeable.  So why don't people use Windows 8?  Because it really has nothing to offer them, so there is no point in spending the money to move to it from Windows 7.  If they already have a Windows 7 license, there really is no point in paying $100 for Windows 8.  In fact, I don't understand why people would pay $100+ for Windows 8 when they already have Windows 7.  Heck, the money would better be spent on upgrading from an HDD to an SSD.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 6, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> *I've been using Win8 since pre-release, and all the performance enhancements aren't noticeable. * The only one that might be noticeable would be booting from a HDD, and even then the difference is seconds, and if you are using an SSD the difference it totally unnoticeable.  Everything else the difference in performance is totally unnoticeable.  So why don't people use Windows 8?  Because it really has nothing to offer them, so there is no point in spending the money to move to it from Windows 7.  If they already have a Windows 7 license, there really is no point in paying $100 for Windows 8.  In fact, I don't understand why people would pay $100+ for Windows 8 when they already have Windows 7.  Heck, the money would better be spent on upgrading from an HDD to an SSD.



Maybe they are not noticeable to you, but Windows 8 Pro on my file server with significantly weaker hardware then my main rig is noticeable faster and more responsive then my main gaming rig with 7 on it.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Nope. Installed Mint for a week realized its as user friendly as a colonoscopy and went back to windows. I mean honesty you guys ain't fooling anyone. If DX is no big deal why the 80 something posts of butt hurt raging. This forum has become so predictable. If you guys can't afford Windows 8 that's fine. But don't trash it because you can't afford it. That's very unbecoming of a technology forum member.



Buy it why the hell you need to buy it ?.. They let you try it out so no point in buying it if you did not like it in the 1st place..



MxPhenom 216 said:


> Good lord, I think we need a............
> 
> http://media.twirlit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/whambulance-600x328.jpg
> 
> ...



Why the hell would i want to buy some thing that i have to mod to make it look and feel how i want it and clearly the wrong message to give to MS as they got ya money they don't care and why help the sales of some thing that you do not approve of.

Whats not to get ?..

Have enough of the government and it's BS( all Americans Insured crap but that's another story which you can truly do shit about )  so one thing for sure i am not going pay some one to make some thing i dislike.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Nope. Installed Mint for a week realized its as user friendly as a colonoscopy and went back to windows. I mean honesty you guys ain't fooling anyone. If DX is no big deal why the 80 something posts of butt hurt raging. This forum has become so predictable. If you guys can't afford Windows 8 that's fine. But don't trash it because you can't afford it. That's very unbecoming of a technology forum member.



i own it. my brother owns it. many of my friends own it (the $15 upgrade)


none of us use it, because the UI is asshat backwards. i got paid to fix a win 8 users printer problems, and windows kept taking me to the metro 'devices' app where printers have NO OPTIONS AT ALL. i had to load the printer settings through fracking IE!


the OS is decent, but metro totally fecks it over.


----------



## rangerone766 (Jul 6, 2013)

why all the hate over win 8? yes the missing start button was stupid to not include. but there are many free progs. out there that give you the star button back.

microcenter had full versions for like $20 dollars or so at launch. I bought 2. 1 for my night stand pc and one for the main. main is still on 7 only because I haven't gotten around to reformatting yet. but my secondary has 8 and runs great. just a e8500 dual core @ 4.2ghz 4 gigs of ddr2 and a gtx285, runs flawless. actually if just surfing or watching vids it is just as fast as my sandy rig.

Stop being all butthurt over Microsoft, they will do what they want regardless. and windows 8 is ok. 8.1 with a stock start button, should be better than 7.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 6, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Maybe they are not noticeable to you, but Windows 8 Pro on my file server with significantly weaker hardware then my main rig is noticeable faster and more responsive then my main gaming rig with 7 on it.



And when is the last time you reformatted your main gaming rig?

I've found the speed improvements people talk about are more an effect of starting fresh and not really Win8.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 6, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> And when is the last time you reformatted your main gaming rig?
> 
> I've found the speed improvements people talk about are more an effect of starting fresh and not really Win8.



this is why i love putting my non-gaming stuff in a virtual machine, i close the VM and its always got that 'fresh' feel


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 6, 2013)

rangerone766 said:


> 8.1 with a stock start button, should be better than 7.



Which.....are you ready for it?  Takes you to the start screen you can't avoid unless you pay extra and/or install Start8/ModernMix or Classic Shell to make it work without that damned Start Screen, which has zero functionality.  

My testing has shown me that it is dumbed down....it's like "MS for Dummies," with your ability to control many things gone.  You need the desktop.


----------



## TRWOV (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> none of us use it, because the UI is asshat backwards. i got paid to fix a win 8 users printer problems, and windows kept taking me to the metro 'devices' app where printers have NO OPTIONS AT ALL. i had to load the printer settings through fracking IE!



windows+r > "control printers" > enter

or

windows + x > p > Printers and devices


Satisfied W8 user here


----------



## Mussels (Jul 6, 2013)

TRWOV said:


> windows+r > "control printers" > enter
> 
> or
> 
> ...



so you're saying to use the OS, all new users must memorise keyboard shortcuts to reach them, and the menu labelled 'devices and printers' is what, just to troll people?


----------



## TRWOV (Jul 6, 2013)

windows + r > "control printers" > enter has worked since XP

windows + x > p is the new one. Less typing. Or windows + i > Control Panel > Devices and printers. Or windows + c > Configuration > Control Panel > Devices and printers.


And yes, power users should familiarize with system shorcuts IMO.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> i own it. my brother owns it. many of my friends own it (the $15 upgrade)
> 
> 
> none of us use it, because the UI is asshat backwards. i got paid to fix a win 8 users printer problems, and windows kept taking me to the metro 'devices' app where printers have NO OPTIONS AT ALL. i had to load the printer settings through fracking IE!
> ...



I've installed a few printers using windows 8. I have no idea even what you are talking about honestly. Sounds like pilot error to me.

Also the UI is different. Not backwards. Take some time to learn it. I use it everyday in a production setting. Works AWESOME once you realize how to work it.


----------



## btarunr (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> so you're saying to use the OS, all new users must memorise keyboard shortcuts to reach them, and the menu labelled 'devices and printers' is what, just to troll people?



But we're not talking about "all new users," we're talking about PC enthusiasts like you and me. "All new users" can stick to Windows XP.


----------



## naoan (Jul 6, 2013)

ms stockholders should be really really worried now, or they could keep trolling potential customers on the interwebz, hoping that they will see the "error of their way" and proceed to install the fisher price OS on their pc.


----------



## Frick (Jul 6, 2013)

btarunr said:


> "All new users" can stick to Windows XP.



How about no?

And shouldn't we have a Windows 8 vs the World Club by now so we don't have to contaminate the rest of the forums with that discussion?


----------



## Frick (Jul 6, 2013)

naoan said:


> ms stockholders should be really really worried now, or they could keep trolling potential customers on the interwebz, hoping that they will see the "error of their way" and proceed to install the fisher price OS on their pc.



I bet you said exactly the same thing when Windows XP came out. And Vista. And Windows 95, and 3.whatever.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> so you're saying to use the OS, all new users must memorise keyboard shortcuts to reach them, and the menu labelled 'devices and printers' is what, just to troll people?



Start/Metro Screen -> Control Panel -> Devices and Printers

Was that so hard?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I've installed a few printers using windows 8. I have no idea even what you are talking about honestly. Sounds like pilot error to me.
> 
> Also the UI is different. Not backwards. Take some time to learn it. I use it everyday in a production setting. Works AWESOME once you realize how to work it.



use the doodad on the right of the screen to find 'devices', and try right clicking on the printer to get to even a single setting. there isnt any. you can get to it through any program thats printing, or control panel - but the stock 'devices' menu is where new users go (and some win 7 users, since its devices and printers menu actually worked)


----------



## TRWOV (Jul 6, 2013)

The devices screen is for adding or deleting devices, not configure them.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 6, 2013)

TRWOV said:


> The devices screen is for adding or deleting devices, not configure them.



and that is not written or mentioned anywhere. this end user (a 45 year old woman) found it via the metro interface, it says devices, it has her printer listed... and yet it cant do anything.


why the hell would adding a device and setting it up be split into two different areas? please explain that one, fanboys.


this whole dick swinging argument of 'well *I* made it work so i'm just smarter than you' is so fucking immature, and really just helps MS cover up the fact that they slapped a shitty unintuitive UI over the top of an existing one, and its fragmented in stupid ways.


----------



## naoan (Jul 6, 2013)

Frick said:


> I bet you said exactly the same thing when Windows XP came out. And Vista. And Windows 95, and 3.whatever.



No, I even use and like Vista SP1, what do I win?


----------



## BiggieShady (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> this whole dick swinging argument of 'well *I* made it work so i'm just smarter than you' is so fucking immature, and really just helps MS cover up the fact that they slapped a shitty unintuitive UI over the top of an existing one, and its fragmented in stupid ways.



LOL, it's funny because it's true  studies have shown that immature people like windows 8 more


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 6, 2013)

BiggieShady said:


> LOL, it's funny because it's true  studies have shown that immature people like windows 8 more




where's the bull shit source for that?


----------



## BiggieShady (Jul 6, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> where's the bull shit source for that?



no source, no study, just bull shit


----------



## hellrazor (Jul 6, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> What I truly don't understand is why people don't use windows 8, and then if they hate the UI so much, use Start8 or Classic Shell? That way you get all the performance enhancements, while staying with your beloved Windows 7 UI.



Why would I buy an OS if I'm just going to turn it into the OS that I already have? Especially when the only thing I really do with it anymore is play Stronghold Kingdoms?


----------



## phanbuey (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I've installed a few printers using windows 8. I have no idea even what you are talking about honestly. Sounds like pilot error to me.
> 
> Also the UI is different. Not backwards. Take some time to learn it. I use it everyday in a production setting. Works AWESOME once you realize how to work it.



oh YEAH its really great.

not.  It sucks alot and i know how to work it.  I even type the program that I want into it and it finds it... and you know what?  Its STILL A SHITTY INTERFACE.

Don't lie to us... you hate it.. you just like trolling the forum a bit here and there... and I bet when you do it on your laptop it's a bit like "trolololo * BAM WEATHER APP COMBO BREAKER* and then you go **damn windows 8**... 'bessst OS evarrrr... Trolrolrolllolrolol"


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jul 6, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Maybe they are not noticeable to you, but Windows 8 Pro on my file server with significantly weaker hardware then my main rig is noticeable faster and more responsive then my main gaming rig with 7 on it.



I also have it on my 6 years old laptop, and is faster, I agree, but *damn is fugly* like hell and useless without the 3rd party programs installed.


----------



## Frick (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm starting to think Microsofts goal is to make humanity dumber, and meaner. If so, they are succeding. It's nice to see that I'm not the one getting upset though.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> and that is not written or mentioned anywhere. this end user (a 45 year old woman) found it via the metro interface, it says devices, it has her printer listed... and yet it cant do anything.
> 
> 
> why the hell would adding a device and setting it up be split into two different areas? please explain that one, fanboys.
> ...



My old man is 67 years old and he figured it out and he's no Bill Gates.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 6, 2013)

TRWOV said:


> windows + r > "control printers" > enter has worked since XP
> 
> windows + x > p is the new one. Less typing. Or windows + i > Control Panel > Devices and printers. Or windows + c > Configuration > Control Panel > Devices and printers.
> 
> ...



But you had the option to or not , it's some of these options we the people enjoyed using.



TheMailMan78 said:


> My old man is 67 years old and he figured it out and he's no Bill Gates.



Not everyone's the same.. My next door neighbor hates every thing after XP as that much has been changed.

Some people don't want or feel the need that they have to relearn how to use a OS and even more so it would not of hurt of having both options..  The new way and the old way.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> My old man is 67 years old and he figured it out and he's no Bill Gates.



Can you ask your old man if he's figured out what keeps breaking the ui and apps because the third time they broke for me (requireing a day 1 refresh ) I pulled that shit off and put 7 back on trololalolaloolalay right back at ya


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 6, 2013)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Can you ask your old man if he's figured out what keeps breaking the ui and apps because the third time they broke for me (requireing a day 1 refresh ) I pulled that shit off and put 7 back on trololalolaloolalay right back at ya



Been using it since day one. Never had that happen and I dunno why you keep calling me a troll. I'm just stating facts. As a matter of fact MS stock has been on the rise since Windows 8 has come out. Apparently (as I said before) the people on TPU are a dying market. All of your crying and complaining isn't going to stop the inevitable change of the PC market. Embrace Windows 8, learn it because the GUI isn't going anywhere.



Mussels said:


> and that is not written or mentioned anywhere. this end user (a 45 year old woman) found it via the metro interface, it says devices, it has her printer listed... and yet it cant do anything.
> 
> 
> why the hell would adding a device and setting it up be split into two different areas? please explain that one, fanboys.
> ...



If all else fails just read the directions.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Jul 6, 2013)

If you can use windows 7 then you can use windows 8. I have mine setup to show desktop always and I have start8 (but there are free ones). The only time I ever interface with metro is by mistake but its a simple click on the desktop pane to get me back. I did have issues with wireless drivers when I first bought WIN8 but now I have upgraded my whole WLAN and it works as it should.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> If all else fails just read the directions.



now i know you're trolling. a man reading directions?


----------



## brandonwh64 (Jul 6, 2013)

Mussels said:


> now i know you're trolling. a man reading directions?



I have to agree with this statement! If a man cannot fix something with the directions tossed aside and a beer then they need to put on a dress and get a manicure.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 6, 2013)

phanbuey said:


> oh YEAH its really great.
> 
> not.  It sucks alot and i know how to work it.  I even type the program that I want into it and it finds it... and you know what?  Its STILL A SHITTY INTERFACE.
> 
> Don't lie to us... you hate it.. you just like trolling the forum a bit here and there... and I bet when you do it on your laptop it's a bit like "trolololo * BAM WEATHER APP COMBO BREAKER* and then you go **damn windows 8**... 'bessst OS evarrrr... Trolrolrolllolrolol"



Are you 12?


----------



## Frick (Jul 6, 2013)

brandonwh64 said:


> I have to agree with this statement! If a man cannot fix something with the directions tossed aside and a beer then they need to put on a dress and get a manicure.



Good to hear you are walking in your fathers footsteps.



MxPhenom 216 said:


> Are you 12?



I think most people here are, at least they revert to that age when talking about Windows 8.


----------



## phanbuey (Jul 6, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Are you 12?



No... but don't you work for Microsoft?


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jul 6, 2013)

phanbuey said:


> No... but don't you work for Microsoft?



sure do. Lab Technician


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Been using it since day one. Never had that happen and I dunno why you keep calling me a troll. I'm just stating facts. As a matter of fact MS stock has been on the rise since Windows 8 has come out. Apparently (as I said before) the people on TPU are a dying market. All of your crying and complaining isn't going to stop the inevitable change of the PC market. Embrace Windows 8, learn it because the GUI isn't going anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> If all else fails just read the directions.



Throw some facts at it then , all ive read is your OPINION that its ok for YOU and your dad, fine thats ok with me.
Now how's about you respect others opinion instead of insinuating idiocy , churlishness and that were all crying,  im not even all that bothered tbh as its unimportant until a games out in two years im just discussing it as I like others are sat bored.

I used win8  for three months with classic start , I didn't much like it but Am used to using it and still on the whole dont like it but ill try it again when it actually matters.


----------



## vega22 (Jul 6, 2013)

Frick said:


> Good to hear you are walking in your fathers footsteps.



reply of the day goes to...

who cares?

really.

i mean the last x.1 that got any real play was 8.1 and that was soon killed of by 9.

dx10.1 had what, 2 games?

11.1 looks like nobody cares and 11.2 is probably only going to make it into games which microsoft pay for it to be there in.


----------



## Zen_ (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Embrace Windows 8, learn it because the GUI isn't going anywhere.



I agree to some extent that power users and certainly professionals are going to have to learn the new UI whether they like it or not. However, the resistance to W8 has been very stiff for good reason. It is less convenient for many desktop users, and corporations have flatly rejected it for productivity and cost reasons. It's not making much, if any headway in the tablet market, which is ostensibly the reason we have had the new UI forced upon us. This is backed up by sales that can only be described as dismal. 

It's difficult to understand why MS refused to simply give us the option of a classic interface that blends the good features of W7 and W8 for desktops, while using the new interface exclusively on mobile touch devices. It could easily be done in a fashion that still has the feel of the new UI, so MS could market the UI as unified on all platforms, while still giving us some choice out of the box. OOB is key because while 3rd party apps / tweaks already provide this, they don't remedy resentment for not getting what we should have already had.

As for DX 11.2, what a mess too. We have just now reached the point where developers are willing to fully utilize DX11 with no backwards compatibility. I can't imagine who or why anyone would spend a nickle adding in DX11.2 features to a PC game if it's not available in W7.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 6, 2013)

Zen_ said:


> I agree to some extent that power users and certainly professionals are going to have to learn the new UI whether they like it or not. However, the resistance to W8 has been very stiff for good reason. It is less convenient for many desktop users, and corporations have flatly rejected it for productivity and cost reasons. It's not making much, if any headway in the tablet market, which is ostensibly the reason we have had the new UI forced upon us. This is backed up by sales that can only be described as dismal.
> 
> It's difficult to understand why MS refused to simply give us the option of a classic interface that blends the good features of W7 and W8 for desktops, while using the new interface exclusively on mobile touch devices. It could easily be done in a fashion that still has the feel of the new UI, so MS could market the UI as unified on all platforms, while still giving us some choice out of the box. OOB is key because while 3rd party apps / tweaks already provide this, they don't remedy resentment for not getting what we should have already had.
> 
> As for DX 11.2, what a mess too. We have just now reached the point where developers are willing to fully utilize DX11 with no backwards compatibility. I can't imagine who or why anyone would spend a nickle adding in DX11.2 features to a PC game if it's not available in W7.



The xbone answers your last query so it won't overly matter for a year yet , 11.2 is quite the thing for apu's though not any you can at this point put into a pc.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jul 6, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Embrace Windows 8, learn it because the GUI isn't going anywhere.


Isn't that what Microsoft said about Xbox One DRM?


----------



## ypsylon (Jul 6, 2013)

Ha ha

Like I care about some useless **** in equally hopeless W8. All games I play run between DX7 and 9. Sorry but I haven't found anything interesting created in last 5-6 (more?) years


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

might make ms rethink their strategy- just like how xbone is now drm free and their spokesman got fired for making it drm only



crazyeyesreaper said:


> lets see Direct X 11 launched in October 2009
> 
> first games to truly use DX11 came out in March with the majority releasing in September 2010
> 
> ...


----------



## TRWOV (Jul 6, 2013)

I agree that MS should have left metro as an optional UI. Is obvious that metro is a trojan horse, I pretty much  suspect that W9 will have metro and metro only. That being said, everything you knew about W7 still applies to W8. All the shortcuts and commands you know still work. windows + e opens explorer, windows + d goes to the desktop, etc, etc. If you know your way around W7 you can work with W8. 

I've been using W8 since it launched and the only thing I see of metro is the start screen. For everything else I use the keyboard just as well as I did on W7.

windows + x is awesome BTW. I think that was added as a transition tool or something, it's extremely useful. Like a handyman belt or something.


----------



## midnightoil (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm all for this, personally.  It just hastens the rise of gaming on Linux and OpenGL's re-emergence on Windows.

I seriously can't see why most developers in future would choose DirectX over OpenGL on Windows for multiplatform ... it's faster, more flexible, more features, much easier to modify and update once the game has released, and more importantly PS4, Linux and Mac share it ... only the XBoxGoHome is exclusively restricted to DX.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 7, 2013)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Throw some facts at it then , all ive read is your OPINION that its ok for YOU and your dad, fine thats ok with me.
> Now how's about you respect others opinion instead of insinuating idiocy , churlishness and that were all crying,  im not even all that bothered tbh as its unimportant until a games out in two years im just discussing it as I like others are sat bored.
> 
> I used win8  for three months with classic start , I didn't much like it but Am used to using it and still on the whole dont like it but ill try it again when it actually matters.



I've given you all kinds of facts. I've talked about market trends, stocks and the market in general BUT, still you want to ignore the elephant in the room and that's ok by me. All of the "opinions" in this thread are irrelevant to the FACT the desktop market is dying. Windows 8 is the next evolution of the OS and all the crying about a start button isn't going to change that. Especially coming from a niche segment of a dying market.



brandonwh64 said:


> I have to agree with this statement! If a man cannot fix something with the directions tossed aside and a beer then they need to put on a dress and get a manicure.



All my old man did was pop in the CD and install the drivers......and GASP.......the printer worked.


----------



## johnspack (Jul 7, 2013)

Dx11.2 is nice I guess.  Kepler has software 11.1.  My ancient fermi has hardware 11.  Most games are 10 or 11.  Think I saw one that was 11.1.  Wheeee software support for that with a $500 card.  As for ports,  look for 30 fps once again like with Crysis...  I'm just getting to sli 480s,  now I need sli 680/780s just for 1920x1200?  arg.   Rant over.....


----------



## HiroPro (Jul 7, 2013)

newtekie1 said:


> Get gamers to buy the PS4 and you'll get better OpenGL developement.
> 
> Seriously though, with the PS4 using OpenGL, I see a shift towards OpenGL as the game standard, since games will be extremely easy to port from the PS4 to Windows and OSX and Linux.  I wouldn't be surprised if devs start developing for the PS4 originally, in OpenGL, so they can easily porting the game to PC/OSX/Linux, and then porting the game to Xbone.



Where did you get this notion the Playstation 4 uses OpenGL exclusively?

It actually uses DirectX 11 as well and I'd assume most games will be DirectX 11 API based for Playstation 4.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 7, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> irrelevant to the FACT the desktop market is dying



This isn't the first time I've see you offer this opinion as fact.  Please tell me how it's a dying market when each year online e-tailers are selling literally tons of parts, like cases,  motherboards, memory, cpu's, and the most purchased item, graphics cards?  Most people who buy a prebuilt pc, or the parts to build one themselves keep it for years, and only upgrade a part here or there. 

 The fact that desktop PC's last longer and people don't buy a complete system every year or two like they do with tablets or laptops doesn't mean it's a dying market.  It's in fact still a strong sales market for the pc and components.  Everyone I know has a PC, and also has a tablet and/or laptop, and a smartphone.  They use them all at different times for their own niche, but each has a purpose in their lives.  And yes, most of the people I know upgrade their PC's bit by bit.  

And yes, I and everyone I know has a good cross-section of OS too, some Apple products, some Windows Vista, W7, and even beginning to do Windows 8.  But no one I know has completely wiped the slate clean and replaced them all with W8.  Not one of them, even the non-power users, likes W8.  I use it on one of my computers, and I'm getting used to it, but it just is not favored to me like W7 is.  W8 quite frankly, the way MS intended it to be used, with the average user never leaving the start screen, feels like Microsoft For Dummies.

Bottom line is, it ALL has it's place.  But here you are on a PC enthusiast community talking about the demise of the desktop like has been predicted for ten years, when it's still as strong as ever.  There are just a lot more tools to use now (which get purchased more frequently, giving artificial usage results), that's all, and that is perfectly fine!


----------



## midnightoil (Jul 7, 2013)

HiroPro said:


> Where did you get this notion the Playstation 4 uses OpenGL exclusively?
> 
> It actually uses DirectX 11 as well and I'd assume most games will be DirectX 11 API based for Playstation 4.



Can someone ban the troll please?

No the SONY (not MS) console does not implement or have any support whatsoever for the DX API.  None.  If games don't use OpenGL for various things, it's because they're doing something direct to metal.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 7, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I've given you all kinds of facts. I've talked about market trends, stocks and the market in general BUT, still you want to ignore the elephant in the room and that's ok by me. All of the "opinions" in this thread are irrelevant to the FACT the desktop market is dying. Windows 8 is the next evolution of the OS and all the crying about a start button isn't going to change that. Especially coming from a niche segment of a dying market.
> 
> 
> 
> All my old man did was pop in the CD and install the drivers......and GASP.......the printer worked.



Fine chatt ass fodder laters..... you are now chatting such vehemont ass chouder im off  ,, crying????? ,, see last post. Out
.


----------



## Animalpak (Jul 7, 2013)

Just bought two days ago a system builder copy of windows 8 64-bit... 

I have not followed the thread but I hope I did the right thing because i do not like Win 8 when i saw first time but i can get used to me.


----------



## hellrazor (Jul 7, 2013)

TL;DR Windows 8 sucks balls at everything except sucking balls something something rabble rabble rabble being stupid is smart nowadays something something go fuck yourselves.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 7, 2013)

rtwjunkie said:


> This isn't the first time I've see you offer this opinion as fact.  Please tell me how it's a dying market when each year online e-tailers are selling literally tons of parts, like cases,  motherboards, memory, cpu's, and the most purchased item, graphics cards?  Most people who buy a prebuilt pc, or the parts to build one themselves keep it for years, and only upgrade a part here or there.
> 
> The fact that desktop PC's last longer and people don't buy a complete system every year or two like they do with tablets or laptops doesn't mean it's a dying market.  It's in fact still a strong sales market for the pc and components.  Everyone I know has a PC, and also has a tablet and/or laptop, and a smartphone.  They use them all at different times for their own niche, but each has a purpose in their lives.  And yes, most of the people I know upgrade their PC's bit by bit.
> 
> ...



Ahem.......

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182646&highlight=decline


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 7, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ahem.......
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/sh...hlight=decline



Sir, I will concede the pre-built PC point to you.  I did find it interesting they attribute it to the poor reception of putting W8 on PC's.  

That being said, it says nothing about the number of parts being sold, and it doesn't take into account that for most average, non-techie people, there is no reason to buy a new PC just because a new operating system comes out.  It doesn't mean they aren't using them.  They last for years.  And a lot of those average (non-enthusiast) people will upgrade at least the memory and video card, giving more years of life.  

Really, what they should do is a comprehensive survey on USAGE, not sales.  That would show a different story.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 7, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ahem.......
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182646&highlight=decline



Shiii declines happens and there is a good reason for it windows 8 HAHA and the next gen consoles.

And if you believe ever thing some site tells ya which i am sure you don't your blind as a bat.


For all those idiots know more people could be building there own systems and then still there is always ups and downs in every market and the PC market as pre built or as parts are selling.

Lets face it a person can only afford so much and that tablet might have to come 1st as the only time i am going believe crap like that thread goes on about is if it continues over a lot more than 1 year LMFAO  Shii weather man is more accurate and they suck at it.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jul 7, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> gamers should be using linux. it is time for the devs to move over to the open platform and work with opengl. let the consumer have a real say and not let microsoft push people around.



Gamers would if devs supported it. But they really dont so therefore gamers really wont make the switch.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 7, 2013)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> Gamers would if devs supported it. But they really dont so therefore gamers really wont make the switch.




I know Linux be on all the computers in this house if the games i play worked on it and if that was to be tomorrow all of them be ready with Linux on them by then no question about it.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jul 7, 2013)

> Gamers should be using linux. it is time for the devs to move over to the open platform and work with opengl. let the consumer have a real say and not let microsoft push people around.



While I agree with this, please tell this to Creative, Leadtek or Logitec to release Linux drivers for my soundcard, videocard, keyboard, external Wi-Fi dongle, etc, etc. I think the main problem nowadays is the extremely high lack of quality Linux drivers for a lot of PC peripherals.


----------



## ice_v (Jul 7, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ahem.......
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182646&highlight=decline



Ahem......







Steam's active user base is by the way somewhere around 54-55 millions by now, and growing... 

So I'm having a really hard time believing this "PC is dead" mantra...as I see it, the PC is a sleeping giant, that year after year is having less and less good sleep and might just wake up on the wrong side and tear other platforms a new one in a year or two... and by the looks of it, he's not wearing a full blown Win 8 pajama...more like a Win 8 sock  : 

http://i.imgur.com/YRhhF3P.jpg


----------



## nt300 (Jul 8, 2013)

PC gaming has been growing faster than console growth. By 2014 PC gaming would have surpassed all consoles combined in revenue.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 8, 2013)

nt300 said:


> PC gaming has been growing faster than console growth. By 2014 PC gaming would have surpassed all consoles combined in revenue.



If you consider how many of us should have playable games for life on steam etc I can't help but feel that in a decade or so consoles will become less attractive to most.
And with the feature harmony 11.2  brings is another shovel of dirt on the consoles coffin


----------



## Mussels (Jul 8, 2013)

the big advantage to steam is that we can fire up our one steam account on many generations of PC's to have access to outdated titles (or run a virtual machine).


whereas consoles... well, servers shut down GG no worky.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 8, 2013)

Mussels said:


> the big advantage to steam is that we can fire up our one steam account on many generations of PC's to have access to outdated titles (or run a virtual machine).
> 
> 
> whereas consoles... well, servers shut down GG no worky.



Exactly and before this generation there was little parity In experience and performance but I think m$ is leveling the field with each Dx release , I just think they are going to kill there own baby (xbone) eventually maybe one day bringing the xbone experience to actual home pcs just to keep it alive but this is years away I admit.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 8, 2013)

consoles need to be PC compatible, but a closed market for hardware and software.


quite literally the xbox would be the 'standard' and you could get your own custom built PC for better performance/higher res gaming, but at the end of the day its the same thing.

the only reason it wont work is because controller Vs mouse and keyboard would destroy competition for those who are not of the PC master race.


----------



## BiggieShady (Jul 8, 2013)

TRWOV said:


> I pretty much suspect that W9 will have metro and metro only



Lol, I'm trying to visualize Visual Studio 2015 metro style


----------



## scoutingwraith (Jul 8, 2013)

BiggieShady said:


> Lol, I'm trying to visualize Visual Studio 2015 metro style



Just thinking about it makes me shiver.


----------



## Mr McC (Jul 8, 2013)

Does anyone envisage 11.2 as being a paradigm shift? I know it will be sold as that and I heard that it entailed some sort of symbiotic memory set up that would be exploited in the new Xbox, but does that mean fireworks around the corner? In short, say I was toying with the idea of upgrading to a 760, should I hold off for the 11.2 compatible generation of cards?


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 9, 2013)

Mr McC said:


> Does anyone envisage 11.2 as being a paradigm shift? I know it will be sold as that and I heard that it entailed some sort of symbiotic memory set up that would be exploited in the new Xbox, but does that mean fireworks around the corner? In short, say I was toying with the idea of upgrading to a 760, should I hold off for the 11.2 compatible generation of cards?



Its not going to be important for a year or two and is best suited to apu platforms so your fine imho

It essentially opens the memory of the gpu and cpu up more to each other but its mostly going to be future hardware that benefits.


----------



## hellrazor (Jul 9, 2013)

Mr McC said:


> Does anyone envisage 11.2 as being a paradigm shift? I know it will be sold as that and I heard that it entailed some sort of symbiotic memory set up that would be exploited in the new Xbox, but does that mean fireworks around the corner? In short, say I was toying with the idea of upgrading to a 760, should I hold off for the 11.2 compatible generation of cards?



No, no, and no.


----------



## Mombasa69 (Jul 9, 2013)

*Wait for a true DX11.2 GPU (Radeon 9000 will be the first range in Oct).*

Current GPU's are 'compatible' with DX11.2, but you certainly wont get all of the features unless you get a new GPU that's dedicated to DX11.2, wait until October for the new Radeon 9000 series, that will be a true DX11.2.

Glad I waited, will have to stick with my trusty old 3 way 570s until then, no way am I buying a new GPU until then.


----------



## BigMack70 (Jul 9, 2013)

hellrazor said:


> No, no, and no.



Pretty much nailed it. There is no reason to make any purchasing decisions around DX 11.2 at this time.

This is just marketing to get people to buy a version of Windows they otherwise don't want.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 9, 2013)

BigMack70 said:


> This is just marketing to get people to buy a version of Windows they otherwise don't want.



THIS!  Like I've said several times, these features are irrelevant to PC gaming, and will be for several years yet.


----------



## Mr McC (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks for the responses.

That's pretty much what I thought. Sure my 5870 is DirectX 11 compatible, but it clearly isn't as powerful as subsequent generations. I envisage a similar scenario here: if and when DirectX 11.2 does become relevant, the initial releases of compatible cards will probably be obsolete.


----------



## Mombasa69 (Jul 9, 2013)

BigMack70 said:


> Pretty much nailed it. There is no reason to make any purchasing decisions around DX 11.2 at this time.
> 
> This is just marketing to get people to buy a version of Windows they otherwise don't want.



Until around November when the new console ports start to appear, PC Games are nearly all direct ports from consoles, current gen cards will be obsolete by then, you'll still be able to play games, but if you want all the features, you'll have to get a new GPU...


----------



## BigMack70 (Jul 9, 2013)

Mombasa69 said:


> Until around November when the new console ports start to appear, PC Games are nearly all direct ports from consoles, current gen cards will be obsolete by then, you'll still be able to play games, but if you want all the features, you'll have to get a new GPU...







Oh man, that was a great laugh. Thanks for that. No games are going to be using DX11.2 in any meaningful way for a long time, if ever. Can you even find an upcoming game right now listed as supporting it? No.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 9, 2013)

Cards won't be obsolete. Even in a couple years, if a game employs 11.2, you might have one or two features greyed out in your options.   And I disagree about PC games almost all being ports...big name titles, yes.  But there are a heck of alot more PC games than just the AAA titles.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jul 9, 2013)

The next Crazy Birds will have exclusive support for D3D 11.2.


----------



## oNyX (Aug 26, 2013)

birdie said:


> Ah, journalism.
> 
> Crysis 1 had no extra effects in DirectX 10 mode - via a special hack all those things were made available in DX9.0c.



I used the DX10 hack for Assassin's Creed on XP. Worked like a charm and the graphics looked the same on hacked XP than on vanilla Vista/7.

I also used the DX10 launcher for Bad Company 2.


----------



## oNyX (Aug 26, 2013)

Mussels said:


> the big advantage to steam is that we can fire up our one steam account on many generations of PC's to have access to outdated titles (or run a virtual machine).
> 
> 
> whereas consoles... well, servers shut down GG no worky.





With PC even if they do shut down the servers you can join various unofficial servers or you can LAN via Hamachi.


----------



## Am* (Aug 27, 2013)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Don't underestimate the power of Xbone.  Because developers have to code for 11.2 means they have no reason not to use 11.2 for Windows titles as well.  Of course, they'll have to put some backwards compatibility in the Windows release but there should be strong support for 11.2 on Windows soon after Xbone launches.



The Xbone has no power over developers, consumers or anybody else -- as it stands right now, it barely survived the huge user backlash from DRM. At this moment in time, about 89% of people are on either DX10 or DX11 GPUs on the PC and 360 and PS3 will still be sold for the next 2 years at least. That means about 95% of multiplatform console games in the next 2-3 years will be ported in some form on the 360 and PS3 which are not going anywhere. That still means developers will be making games in engines that are DX9 compatible. Once PS3/360 die, the developers will jump on the next most common API, which will be DX11.



TheMailMan78 said:


> *Everyone in this thread is just butt hurt and crying like 12 year old girls on their first ovulation because they are going to have to upgrade to get the latest DX.*
> ...................
> So at the end of the day this whole thread is the inevitable fact all you people bitching will be upgrading to windows 8. Taste that?...........That's what they call crow.





TheMailMan78 said:


> Nope. Installed Mint for a week realized its as user friendly as a colonoscopy and went back to windows. I mean honesty you guys ain't fooling anyone. If DX is no big deal why the 80 something posts of butt hurt raging. This forum has become so predictable. If you guys can't afford Windows 8 that's fine. *But don't trash it because you can't afford it.* That's very unbecoming of a technology forum member.



Kindly take a minute to unwedge your head from your behind. Are you seriously stupid enough to try and suggest that people here -- who spent anywhere from hundreds to thousands of dollars' worth of cash on their rigs -- can't afford a $25 OS upgrade?

First off, nobody gives two shits about upgrading from 7 to Windows 8, be it for the new DirectX, the counter-intuitive UI or anything else, as it is not worth the extra hard drive space, let alone the price of admission --and this is coming from someone who owns Windows 8. I've been using it for most of the past year or so on my second laptop and have come to the conclusion that there is absolutely nothing that Windows 8 has that 7 can't do or be tweaked in some way to do the same. Better multithreading? Bullshit -- turn off core parking in Win7. Less resource usage? Turn off Aero. The only thing Windows 8 technically has over 7 is faster boot speed -- considering every single decent PC/laptop in my house now runs a Samsung SSD, the difference between them is maybe 2-3 seconds at best, and you can have your 3 second faster boot speed bragging rights, as I will never trade it for a useable UI.

The biggest performance change documented in Windows 8 is in regards to increased speed of text rendering (supposedly increased by 300%-something pecent) -- I can't remember having performance problems or even giving a flying shit about text rendering speeds since Windows 95. DirectX 11.1, 11.2, 11.5 and any more bullshit APIs they decide to introduce are not going to shift any more copies or Windows 8 or make the fake APIs any more relevant for developers or users. 

If you take a look at any upcoming big multiplatform release, you will find it in some form on the 360 and PS3, which means developers will still be building on game engines that will scale down all the way to DX9 and OpenGL 2/3, because no publisher is going to be stupid enough to turn down potential ~200 million buyers on consoles alone. That will be the case for the next 2-3 years at least, since Sony wants the PS3 to outlive the PS2 and Microsoft only just released another Xbox 360 (Xbone/Cable Box Edition with the new case).

If you enjoy buying the same shitty service packs for Vista every 3 years and the crapfest UI that comes with it, more power to you -- but don't start trolling people for not sharing your views on it or Microshaft's bullshit tactics of selling people service packs packaged as a new operating system -- because no matter if I have $3000 or $300,000 to spend, I'm not going to buy another single Windows NT 6. OS release that's not a complete overhaul in every way and which has features that cannot possibly be implemented on an older OS. I'll admit, I bought into their potential BS of "driverless printer support" and the "return of hardware accelerated audio stack" with Windows 8 this time. Not going to happen again.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Aug 27, 2013)

Am* said:


> because no matter if I have $3000 or $300,000 to spend, I'm not going to buy another single Windows NT 6. OS release that's not a complete overhaul in every way and which has features that cannot possibly be implemented on an older OS. I'll admit, I bought into their potential BS of "driverless printer support" and the "return of hardware accelerated audio stack" with Windows 8 this time. Not going to happen again.



And I'm sure when Windows 9 comes out you will be crying about how Windows 8 can do everything it can with some tweaks and how you won't be fooled into buying Windows 10. You will still find funny ways to spell Microsoft like "Microshaft" and "M$" while they provide you with a platform that gives you a place to not only bitch but, to provide a platform that has given you THOUSANDS of hours of entertainment. The saga continues....WU TANG!


----------



## Tatty_One (Aug 27, 2013)

Thing is, nobody really cares, when ever Microsoft announces a plot like this, such as DX10/Vista etc etc most people just ignore them, carry on playing their favorite games and NEVER noticing that almost unnoticable improvement that the DX .1 or .2 brings becuase hey..... there is not any real notable improvement, and of course you NEVER miss what you didn't have in the first place.

Personally, I like Windows 8, installed it on my daughters desktop and after a few days was well into the new flow of things, clearly Microsfort looks upon me as a minority otherwise why would they be doing this if they were selling the OS like hot cakes?  The strategy didn't work too well with Vista, possibly because the games devlopers didn't seem very interested.  So, until DX11.whatever allows me to smell the fart of my teammate in some coop battle, rather than notice a few more dust particles when the ground erupts from a shell I will stay where I am thanks very much.


----------



## OnePostWonder (Aug 28, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And I'm sure when Windows 9 comes out you will be crying about how Windows 8 can do everything it can with some tweaks and how you won't be fooled into buying Windows 10. You will still find funny ways to spell Microsoft like "Microshaft" and "M$" while they provide you with a platform that gives you a place to not only bitch but, to provide a platform that has given you THOUSANDS of hours of entertainment. The saga continues....WU TANG!



By all indication, he won't being crying about how Windows 8 can do everything Windows 9 can because he sees no added benefit of using Windows 8 over Windows 7.  If anything, he'd complain Windows 7 can do everything Windows 9 can, but it is 100% speculation as we know nothing about what Windows 9 entails.

It's also a bit of a straw-man argument that because Windows has provided "THOUSANDS" of hours of entertainment and a platform to complain about problems, that all is right with it and that it has no irredeemable qualities.


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## Red_Machine (Aug 28, 2013)

The only thing stopping Microsoft porting DX 11.2 to Windows 7 and Vista is themselves.  Look at it this way: Windows 95 started with nothing and got updated all the way to DX 8.0a, 98 started with DX 5.2 and got updated all the way to 9.0c, XP started with 8.1 and again got all the way up to 9.0c.  Vista was when it started going downhill, I had my doubts that it was ever going to get DX 11 the way M$ were going about things but it did eventually.  Now Windows 7 is stuck with DX 11, not even a single update, which is just unacceptable.

It's all bullshit to try to get people to upgrade to the latest and "greatest" version.  Not that it really matters to me, because I got Windows 8 free through TechNet anyway, I'm merely standing on principle here.  I was forced to upgrade from Vista to 7, when I didn't want to, because Microsoft wouldn't patch TRIM support into Vista and I'd just bought an SSD, plus I desperately needed a more stable file transferring system.  It sucked trying to transfer large files, because if I brought up another window it would cause Explorer to lock up and not show me transfer progress, so I had no idea if my transfers were failing or continuing as normal and would just have to wait to see if it finished or not.  That and the whole mainstream support cycle ending was looming overhead and I didn't want to risk any security holes that MS would be lazy over patching.

TL;DR: It's got nothing to do with drivers, it's just then trying to force people to upgrade.  Just look back at DirectX's history and see for yourselves.


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## Mussels (Aug 28, 2013)

to stir up flames, i saw a news report that basically said windows 9 will go back to the aero interface - however, its going to be 'new'


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 28, 2013)

nt300 said:


> PC gaming has been growing faster than console growth. By 2014 PC gaming would have surpassed all consoles combined in revenue.



That's only because current console life is ending. Once next gen consoles launch. Console growth will grow faster then PC once again.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 28, 2013)

Am* said:


> The Xbone has no power over developers, consumers or anybody else -- as it stands right now, it barely survived the huge user backlash from DRM. At this moment in time, about 89% of people are on either DX10 or DX11 GPUs on the PC and 360 and PS3 will still be sold for the next 2 years at least. That means about 95% of multiplatform console games in the next 2-3 years will be ported in some form on the 360 and PS3 which are not going anywhere. That still means developers will be making games in engines that are DX9 compatible. Once PS3/360 die, the developers will jump on the next most common API, which will be DX11.


Explain to me why 64-bit games are few and far between then.  Publishers love consoles because they are a DRM-rich, walled garden.  That's why they focus on consoles and Windows often gets ported.

Also Xbox One could outship PS4 3-to-1 this year so the "huge user backlash" is likely coming from people that aren't likely to buy an Xbone in the first place.

I said developers would use 11.2 because it is the easiest conversion path from Xbone to Windows; however, I also said that they would likely offer "backwards compatibility" too, most likely down to at least DirectX 11.0 because that's where most of the current customers are.

TL;DR: Microsoft is paving the way for the future; developers will use what they want.



Red_Machine said:


> TL;DR: It's got nothing to do with drivers, it's just then trying to force people to upgrade.  Just look back at DirectX's history and see for yourselves.


Yes it does.  Windows 8.1 = WDDM 1.3 = Direct3D 11.2: requires compatible hardware/drivers with all of the above to function with all of the above.

Since Microsoft is offering 8.1 as a downloaded update to 8, there's likely no hardware changes required to upgrade the driver to WDDM 1.3; however, as will all previous versions of Direct3D, the hardware must support it in order to use it.

People are only "forced" to upgrade if a developer decides to support only Direct3D 11.2 and these "people" _must_ play the game.  It's no different than when people were "forced" to upgrade to Windows Vista (or newer) to play Direct3D 10 games.


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## Red_Machine (Aug 28, 2013)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Yes it does.  Windows 8.1 = WDDM 1.3 = Direct3D 11.2: requires compatible hardware/drivers with all of the above to function with all of the above.



That's what they're saying, but I think it's just a convenient excuse.  Back in the days of 98 and XP, DirectX was deliberately coded to be backwards-compatible with older driver models, which also allowed older cards designed for previous versions of DirectX to be given software support for later versions' advanced rendering features.  That miraculously stopped when Vista came out and they first used the driver excuse.  MS knew it was going to be hard to get people to make the transition from XP to Vista, because they'd used it for so long and people generally hate new things, so they tempted gamers with DirectX 10 claiming it wasn't compatible with XP, but the community proved that was a load of bollocks when they ported it.  They even got the "Vista exclusive" Halo 2 working on it.

So yeah, you'll forgive me if I don't believe everything Microsoft says.  Hindsight tells me that they lie through their teeth.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 28, 2013)

Here's the lineage:
WDDM 1.3 = Windows 8.1
WDDM 1.2 = Windows 8
WDDM 1.1 = Windows 7
WDDM 1.0 = Windows Vista
XDDM = Windows 2000/XP

Prior to this, displays didn't have a discreet driver model.  See VxD, Windows Driver Model, and Windows NT Driver Model.

Remember, we're talking about drivers here.  Even an older card like a GeForce 8800 GT which was originally designed for WDDM 1.0 can work on Windows 8.1 provided NVIDIA releases a WDDM 1.3 driver for it.  Here is the caveat though: In Microsoft's documentation, they said Windows 8.1 *requires* a WDDM 1.3 driver.  If NVIDIA didn't release an updated driver for 8800 GT for WDDM 1.3, the card wouldn't work for Windows 8.1.

I just checked, NVIDIA already released a WDDM 1.3 driver for the 8800 GT so you can use that old card with Windows 8.1.  It's really no different than XDDM in that regard: the drivers aren't backwards compatible but they can make old display devices work on new operating systems if updated.


WDDM is all about adding new intrinsic display features to the operating system.  It has little to do with the hardware itself and most to do with manufacturers providing forwards compatibility for older hardware.

Do some research on WDDM for why Microsoft released new versions of it.  All of them are pretty significant changes (e.g. WDDM overrides a full screen application when pressing ctrl+alt+del where XDDM did not).

Direct3D 10 is not, was not, and never will be compatible with XDDM (Windows XP).  WDDM is largely what made Direct3D 10 what it is (more efficient, more capable).  Direct3D 10 debuted over five years ago.  Now virtually all new games use it or one of its derivatives.


Halo 2 had DRM to allow it to only install on Windows Vista.  Crackers removed the DRM and thus, removed its Vista-only lock.  Halo 2 was a Direct3D 9.0c game so the DRM was the only obstacle to making it work.

Now, try to run a game like Stormrise on XP which is Direct3D 10 exclusive.  DRM or not, it's not going to work.


As if the above wasn't enough, let's talk about why WDDM 1.3 and Direct3D 11.2 are tied together.  The major feature Direct3D 11.2 adds is the ability to have gigantic images and have Direct3D only load parts of that image into the video memory for rendering.  This basically means virtual memory (in the main RAM or HDD/SDD) to artificially expand how much video memory is present.  This is a WDDM issue, hence 1.3; but it is also a graphics card issue because to accomplish that goal, they need a plethora of new commands for the GPU.  Add to it the fact that Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 don't know what to do with a WDDM 1.3 driver (the new features like partially caching huge images), if you want Direct3D 11.2, you need at least Direct3D 11.2 hardware and Windows 8.1 (including WDDM 1.3 display driver) software.

Yes, it is complicated but what Microsoft is doing here is really nothing out of the ordinary.  WDDM 1.3 drivers are widely available already and no one is going to care much about Direct3D 11.2 for several years anyway (which is normal).


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 1, 2013)

Mussels said:


> to stir up flames, i saw a news report that basically said windows 9 will go back to the aero interface - however, its going to be 'new'



Glass Tiles- Ala Metrosexual


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 1, 2013)

@Ford:  I thought I saw on Nvidia's site they were only making WDDM 1.3 available for Fermi and above, meaning 400 series and later?


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## m4gicfour (Sep 7, 2013)

eidairaman1 said:


> Glass Tiles- Ala Metrosexual





That made me laugh, and almost choke. 

Now, back to lurking.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 7, 2013)

rtwjunkie said:


> @Ford:  I thought I saw on Nvidia's site they were only making WDDM 1.3 available for Fermi and above, meaning 400 series and later?


They don't have 8.1 64-bit drivers for GeForce 5, 6, and 7 series but they do have them for GeForce 8 series and above.  They must have changed their mind I guess.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 9, 2013)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They don't have 8.1 64-bit drivers for GeForce 5, 6, and 7 series but they do have them for GeForce 8 series and above.  They must have changed their mind I guess.



Cool!  That will probably make alot of people happy that are still running pre-Fermi.


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## campdude (Mar 12, 2014)

This is just as dumb as DX9 Halo 2 Windows Vista only. Too bad Mantle isnt as cool as it was supposed to be... or maybe it will become the new cool (hopes)


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 12, 2014)

Love peoples ASSUmptions


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## Prima.Vera (Mar 12, 2014)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They don't have 8.1 64-bit drivers for GeForce 5, 6, and 7 series but they do have them for GeForce 8 series and above.  They must have changed their mind I guess.


My laptop is running Win8.1 on a nvidia Go 7900GTX card with no issues...


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## Mussels (Mar 12, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> My laptop is running Win8.1 on a nvidia Go 7900GTX card with no issues...



mobility might be different, wouldnt be the first time.


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## Prima.Vera (Mar 12, 2014)

Mussels said:


> mobility might be different, wouldnt be the first time.


Drivers are for Vista x32 ))


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