# Does overclocking reduce life span/damage cpu



## jacoba14 (Jul 9, 2015)

I really want to overclock my 5820k and my asus pro mobo but I do want to damage or shorten life time or reduce the liability. I am using a corsair h110i gt cpu cooler. I will be using it for at least 4 years


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## R-T-B (Jul 9, 2015)

It can, but generally is not an issue if you have good cooling and keep to a reasonable voltage (I hear less than 1.25v is safe).

I am not however, an expert at overclocking the 5820k.  My overclock is extremely conservative and I use the low voltage of 1.2v as my limit.  I'll let some more experienced people give you advice on the rest of this.


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## GhostRyder (Jul 9, 2015)

jacoba14 said:


> I really want to overclock my 5820k and my asus pro mobo but I do want to damage or shorten life time or reduce the liability. I am using a corsair h110i gt cpu cooler. I will be using it for at least 4 years


 In reality, it can but as stated by @R-T-B as long as you keep the temps below for your chip 80C your not going to do it by enough that you would notice in a reasonable timeframe.  Normally on these chips (Haswell-E) keeping around 1.3 and below if the safest without causing degrading of the chip.  Normally when you hear degradation of a chip its caused by extreme over-volting for extreme periods of time which cause the chip to overtime become unstable and require more voltage to handle the clock speeds it had before.  Even so the time it takes normally is about the lifespan of the chips anyway (From a performance look).

A friend of mine has a 2600K i7 that has been overclocked to 4.7ghz for years on end constant under liquid and has not shown one problem yet (Circa 2011).


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## cadaveca (Jul 9, 2015)

One word answer: YES.

Retail chips are fairly robust, as others have mentioned.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 9, 2015)

Why did you buy a K edition if you didnt plan to o/c it?

In answer to your question..........i would and you will be fine, watch your temps and wherever you are stable drop it back a bit, you wont notice any difference at all in 50/100mhz


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## dorsetknob (Jul 9, 2015)

18 years on the p2 300  (SLOT 1 )i bought with the specific intent of overclocking is still running at 550Mhz ( now inherited by my friends daughter for her personal computer)


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## EarthDog (Jul 9, 2015)

Yes... but with reasonable voltages and temperatures, it should last through the useful like of the CPU.


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## Black Panther (Jul 9, 2015)

I don't think so. I had bought an E4300 nearly on release, oc'd it to 3Ghz for more than 5 years+. Today it's retired, no longer oc'd but on one of our work pc's and still going strong.


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## uuuaaaaaa (Jul 9, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> 18 years on the p2 300  (SLOT 1 )i bought with the specific intent of overclocking is still running at 550Mhz ( now inherited by my friends daughter for her personal computer)



This is incredible!


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## peche (Jul 9, 2015)

well… I have in the office a i5 2500K, overclocked to 4.5GHZ, working for 3 years, rebooted once every 45 days…. watercooled, under 65C everyday @100% of its potential, no problems so far, it came second handed for cheap… used… also 50 days ago was running stock due maintenance on that computer… no problems also running on stock settings,

the key: keep your processor under safe voltages, also properly chilled, the same for the motherboard, most people cares about properly cooling CPU but not motherboards, Power phases, memory dims and slots are hot zones, decent cooling will bring more lifetime to your hardware…!


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## apoe (Jul 9, 2015)

Depends. If you have good temperatures and simply increase clocks without increasing voltage, any change in lifespan will be negligible. Unless you do extreme overclocking, you will almost certainly end up replacing/upgrading your CPU before this even becomes a consideration.

You could also extend lifespan by undervolting / underclocking. So the question is, is it worth it to you to have less (maybe significantly less) performance for a potentially longer lifespan?

Same thing with graphics card OC. Most non-reference cards are factory overclocked out of the box nowadays. I don't think anyone goes to buy a factory OC'd GPU, and then immediately underclocks them to reference clocks once installed. It's no different.

And if you bought K series CPU and H110i, it would be a waste if you didn't even plan on OCing to begin with.


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## dorsetknob (Jul 10, 2015)

uuuaaaaaa said:


> This is incredible!


Not really
When released this cpu was exactly the same silicon as the genuine 450 mhz Cpu same S-Spec code just remarketed as 300 mhz P2
read this in a tech mag and so i ordered a p2 300 with this given S-Spec code
when i got it i  ghetto installed extra cooling fans then installed it in m/b and set the dip switches for a 450 mhz cpu
booted pc and Viola it ran and registered as a p2 450 later i changed the dip switches so it ran at 550mhz  run it at this speed for a couple of years till i upgraded to P3  sold it to a mate who run it for years till he upgraded and he gave it to his little girl

never upped the voltage on the Cpu just changed the Multiplier ( they were all unlocked in those days it was only later that Intel started to lock the multiplier)
Early Celeron P2 could be overclocked even higher  ( 700Mhz+)
Ah those were the days


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## hat (Jul 10, 2015)

It can, but if you play it safe (don't use excessive voltage, keep temps under control) it won't be an issue. You'll upgrade again anyway before anything happens to the chip. The more likely story is the chip may degrade, meaning in time it may become incapable of running at the same speed at the same voltage. This should only happen/be noticeable if you push the chip to its limit, though.


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## Solaris17 (Jul 10, 2015)

http://click.intel.com/tuningplan/purchase-a-plan

as @cadaveca Has been kind enough to mention in other posts and I agree as well spend $25 and beat the piss out of it if your that worried.


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## cadaveca (Jul 10, 2015)

jacoba14 said:


> I really want to overclock my 5820k and my asus pro mobo but I do want to damage or shorten life time or reduce the liability. I am using a corsair h110i gt cpu cooler. I will be using it for at least 4 years


You can do what Solaris posted above, and then clock without fear, except when the CPU does die, it will take a few weeks to get the replacement, depending on where you are globally situated.


But let me clarify things for you... VOLTAGE doesn't matter. It is the CURRENT that will degrade a CPU.

See, every CPU is different. The crystalline lattice that makes up the CPU itself is not always perfectly aligned, or perhaps the process of etching the silicon did not go perfectly... all of which is normal. These differences require that certain frequencies require different voltages at the CPU... and so we have CPUs with differing voltage ratings, at "stock". The current, generally speaking, is consistent. Current is pulled by the chip, not given, so adjusting the CPU speed higher can cause it to draw more current... voltage changed or not. So a motherboard has current limits in place...

Yet since modern motherboards allow current limit levels to be changed as well, and often, this is done so automatically when you adjust voltage (depending on board and BIOS used), you need to be very careful and understand that this might be the case.


So, there is no cut-and-dry answer to your question, other than YES.

And to illustrate this idea even more, many boards on the X99 Express platform have added pins that other do not...do you know exactly what those pins do? Does your board even have them? Why is it that early in the launch, when only ASUS boards had this socket, that they were able to clock better, yet over time, many other boards do as well without the OC socket?

The only person that can say no, that OC is safe if you stay within limits... is your board maker, and their BIOS programmer.

But wait... all brands say that OC can damage parts and will void warranty... Perhaps they say this for a reason? Perhaps in a court of law, if they did not, you could prove that OC does damage parts, and this would hold them liable, so they have a default disclaimer?


Sure, some chips can survive w/ OC... but the exact details, the physical makeup of that silicon, the design etched into it, and how the motherboard supplies power are the factors that dictate this, and nearly no one has the equipment to confirm or deny such things.


~A Wise Old Goat.


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## Mussels (Jul 10, 2015)

keep the voltages within reason and the temps low, and it'll last forever.

If you overclock at stock or near stock voltages, it should be fine.


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## Steevo (Jul 10, 2015)

I had a P4 Prescott overclocked and running F@H for years with no degredation and 3 months of the year it would run just below thermal throttle.

I have never experienced a newer CPU degrading at reasonable temperature.


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## ShredBird (Jul 10, 2015)

Back in 2009 I obtained a Core 2 QX9770 Extreme Edition and overclocked the crap out of it, ran it pretty hard throughout its lifetime.  As time went on I noticed keeping that overclock stable started requiring a bit more voltage every once in a while and it got to the point where I ended up disabling the OC completely at the end.  Granted, the end was in 2013 and by that time the Core 2 architecture was vastly outpaced by i7 architectures and prompted be to upgrade.  So, in short, yes, overclocking can have a detrimental effect on the lifetime of your processors.  However, it depends on how much you modify the voltage and how much thermal cycling or excessive temps your device experiences.

However, in my experience, from what I've seen in my own systems and friend's systems, said decrease in lifetime span often goes unnoticed as the device will outlive its usefulness and need to be replaced before noticeable degradation occurs.  My Core 2 Extreme was kind of an outstanding case, and it could be that maybe something on my motherboard or power supply was degrading in the system, not the CPU, hard to tell.

Go ahead, overclock to your heart's content, just make sure you do your research, keep the temps and voltages in the safe range and be patient and do it right.  It's a lot of fun and can give you lots of free performance!


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## Mussels (Jul 10, 2015)

ShredBird said:


> Back in 2009 I obtained a Core 2 QX9770 Extreme Edition and overclocked the crap out of it, ran it pretty hard throughout its lifetime.  As time went on I noticed keeping that overclock stable started requiring a bit more voltage every once in a while and it got to the point where I ended up disabling the OC completely at the end.  Granted, the end was in 2013 and by that time the Core 2 architecture was vastly outpaced by i7 architectures and prompted be to upgrade.  So, in short, yes, overclocking can have a detrimental effect on the lifetime of your processors.  However, it depends on how much you modify the voltage and how much thermal cycling or excessive temps your device experiences.
> 
> However, in my experience, from what I've seen in my own systems and friend's systems, said decrease in lifetime span often goes unnoticed as the device will outlive its usefulness and need to be replaced before noticeable degradation occurs.  My Core 2 Extreme was kind of an outstanding case, and it could be that maybe something on my motherboard or power supply was degrading in the system, not the CPU, hard to tell.
> 
> Go ahead, overclock to your heart's content, just make sure you do your research, keep the temps and voltages in the safe range and be patient and do it right.  It's a lot of fun and can give you lots of free performance!



that degradation could also have been the VRM's on the board, or the PSU.


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## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

*Not really* if you overclock it on stock voltage and make sure the temps won't go too high, but *Yes* if you also increase voltage, but even then it doesn't matter because the shortened lifespan is still way to long to wait it out without upgrading. To give you an example, your CPU will last 15-20 years without overclocking and might only last for 10 with overclocking... Even if the other parts in your PC won't "break" by that time, you would probably still be able to buy a faster and more efficient computer (a stick :-] ) ten years from now for less then $100 or for even much cheaper.


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## vega22 (Jul 10, 2015)

from my exp not really no xD

i have had chips never been oc die for no reason and have chips that have been ran oc for nearly a decade still going fine. i sold an e4300 which has ran 3.2ghz min since i got in 06 at the end of last year. had a few in its life which just died for no reason :s

go figure.


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## ShiBDiB (Jul 10, 2015)

Technically speaking, yes straining a part outside of stock specs will shorten the lifespan.

But realistically as long as you're not doing absurd voltages and temps you'll be upgrading before it dies.


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## Sempron Guy (Jul 10, 2015)

I haven't had a cpu die on me cause of overclocking. And those overclocked cpus got new owners now so dunno if they are still alive or has gone to hardware heaven ( no pun intended ).


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## micropage7 (Jul 10, 2015)

yea, you get higher risk damaging your hardware but as long as you do light OC and not playing the voltage it would be safe
and dont forget since you push your hardware you need better cooling


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## silentbogo (Jul 10, 2015)

As long as you don't do anything stupid like LN2 you'll be fine. Excessive overclocking may sooner kill your motherboard, PSU or any other component, but the CPU is usually the last to stand 


In all my years being around computers I can sum up 99.9% of CPU deaths to physical damage (broken die, bent pins, water etc.). 

I even have a cool topic-related story:
Few years ago I was OCing an AMD Athlon 64 X2 on my BFG motherboard. The rig was placed in my garage and I've used a bunch of dry ice to keep it cool (first experience with DICE!!!).A storm was coming and we had a lightning strike somewhere nearby, which caused a crazy spike in mains all over the neighborhood. In a matter of milliseconds some light bulbs popped, circuit breaker powered off, smoke came out of my PSU and things went south. I've tested my MoBo afterwards and it was permanently dead (so was RAM), while CPU still served for another 4 years in my other rig (also OC'ed) until I sold it!

With all my recklessness I've managed to kill only 2 CPUs in my entire life: broke a die in Duron XP and un-successfully de-lidded Athlon X2 5200+


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## Aquinus (Jul 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> But let me clarify things for you... VOLTAGE doesn't matter. It is the CURRENT that will degrade a CPU.


That's not entirely accurate because voltage alone can damage a CPU if the transitor can't handle the voltage. Or in other words, the voltage on the collector of the transistor exceeds the breakdown voltage of the semiconductor, you will catastrophically kill your CPU or any IC. Under normal operation, this shouldn't occur. The big issue is when people go screwing with LLC while pumping high voltages through their CPU, so it's not even the core voltage that accelerates the damage, it's the spikes in voltage after CPU load changes (while the VRMs catch up.)

I agree with everything else you said though. I just wanted to make sure it was known that voltage *can* damage a CPU, even if that's not how most CPUs get damaged over time.

Let me put it another way: A CPU with a clogged heat sink running at stock will probably die faster than an overclocked CPU with good airflow. It really comes down to heat and if you're getting rid of it fast enough.


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## EarthDog (Jul 10, 2015)

peche said:


> the key: keep your processor under safe voltages, also properly chilled, the same for the motherboard, most people cares about properly cooling CPU but not motherboards, Power phases, memory dims and slots are hot zones, decent cooling will bring more lifetime to your hardware…!


Unless you rock an AMD FX Hex/Octo and overclock it, there is little reason to specifically cool the VRMs. Memory is the absolute LAST thing that needs cooled...


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## Aquinus (Jul 10, 2015)

EarthDog said:


> Unless you rock an AMD FX Hex/Octo and overclock it, there is little reason to specifically cool the VRMs. Memory is the absolute LAST thing that needs cooled...


Well, if you don't have enough airflow and the DIMMs temperature gets a bit on the hotter side, they will die faster. They might need less cooling, but they're no less susceptible to heat damage than any other component. It needs less cooling but, cooling them is most definitely not less important. All components should be running cool if you care about longevity. At work I've seen DIMMs in servers fail due to high temperatures. It most definitely does happen.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 10, 2015)

Thermal throttling is your friend,

the only major component i havent cooked is a cpu


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## LightningJR (Jul 10, 2015)

I have had my 2500K at 4.5Ghz - 4.8Ghz for over 3 years now. I have noticed that it requires more voltage to hit those rated speeds now and 4.8Ghz isn't attainable without better cooling. Whether that's because of my CPU or Mobo I couldn't tell you but if you know how to overclock do your research and be smart you should be fine for a long time with an overclock.

My CPU may just need a new mobo since my mobo is sub par anyway but it could be that I have degraded my CPU somewhat since I bought it.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jul 10, 2015)

Ive been on a 2500k overclocked originally at 4.7GHz but then I started having some stability issues and knocked it down to 4.5GHz for 24/7 use since 2011. Yes it degrades and shortens the life span on the CPU, but it's generally not something you need to worry about. Youll end up upgrading your CPU before it ever dies on you due to a stable, well cooled, overlcock.


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## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> But let me clarify things for you... VOLTAGE doesn't matter. It is the CURRENT that will degrade a CPU.


 I don't understand, wouldn't you get more Current in the CPU if you would "give" it more Voltage? Anyways, in my experience, the "evil" spikes degrade it the fastest.


Aquinus said:


> Well, if you don't have enough airflow and the DIMMs temperature gets a bit on the hotter side, they will die faster. They might need less cooling, but they're no less susceptible to heat damage than any other component. It needs less cooling but, cooling them is most definitely not less important. All components should be running cool if you care about longevity. At work I've seen DIMMs in servers fail due to high temperatures. It most definitely does happen.


Can you link some source for that please? I find it hard to believe that a part which only needs 1.65V and consumes around 2-3W (per stick) would have any kind of heat issues (ok, lets say you are doing some extreme overclocking and each stick eats 10W, then you might want to cool those chips a little perhaps ), so why would you need to cool DDR3 ram modules?


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## peche (Jul 10, 2015)

EarthDog said:


> Unless you rock an AMD FX Hex/Octo and overclock it, there is little reason to specifically cool the VRMs. Memory is the absolute LAST thing that needs cooled...


i respect your opinion ... but not share it...


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## cadaveca (Jul 10, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> It really comes down to heat and if you're getting rid of it fast enough.



Actually, Intel was pretty specific about the 4790K launch to say that temps were NOT a factor in the lifespan of the Haswell chips, outside of solder-melting temps. The CPU will throttle LONG before temps are an issue.

Hence my stance in the past that everyone complaining about high temps and de-lidding were all blowing it out of proportion. The "poor TIM" was not poor...it is in fact what can safe the chip before temps exceed safety margins, and by changing the TIM when you pull the heatspreader, you break that protection mechanism.


Also, Votlage is EMF - electro motive force - potential difference. It enables current flow, but does NOT do anything than indicate a difference in *potential* for current to flow.

Votlage can exist without current, but current CANNOT exist without that difference in voltage. Those spikes in voltage increase the ability for current to flow and it is the CURRENT that actually does the damage...voltage is really nothing BUT potential for current flow.



Ikaruga said:


> I don't understand, wouldn't you get more Current in the CPU if you would "give" it more Voltage? Anyways, in my experience, the "evil" spikes degrade it the fastest.



Yes, it increases the potential for current to flow. But how much is based on the resistance of the circuit... I= E/R. But again, voltage is a POTENTIAL for current flow, not a physical thing. It is a difference between two points, and without those two points, has zero meaning, because there is zero potential for flow without a beginning and end.


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## Frick (Jul 10, 2015)

Ikaruga said:


> Can you link some source for that please? I find it hard to believe that a part which only needs 1.65V and consumes around 2-3W (per stick) would have any kind of heat issues (ok, lets say you are doing some extreme overclocking and each stick eats 10W, then you might want to cool those chips a little perhaps ), so why would you need to cool DDR3 ram modules?



IIRC cadaceca has said in a review that a stick got pretty toasty... For everyday farting around it's useless though. Like those silly OCZ Reapers. I loved that look but boy was it pointless.


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## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> Hence my stance in the past that everyone complaining about high temps and de-lidding were all blowing it out of proportion. The "poor TIM" was not poor...it is in fact what can safe the chip before temps exceed safety margins, and by changing the TIM when you pull the heatspreader, you break that protection mechanism.


 But some just de-lidding the chip to apply a better TIM there, so it will run cooler and last longer, and not to reach higher overclocks. I think it's a good thing if your chip runs 15C lower after a de-lid. I understand that it might not affect longevity much, but a hotter CPU affects its surroundings too, and that matters imho.



Frick said:


> IIRC cada*v*eca has said in a review that a stick got pretty toasty... For everyday farting around it's useless though. Like those silly OCZ Reapers. I loved that look but boy was it pointless.


Yes, as I said, overclocking is a different story, you obviously need adequate cooling if you push things, but other than that, I think DDR3 RAM cooling is just aesthetics/marketing.


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## silentbogo (Jul 10, 2015)

Ikaruga said:


> Can you link some source for that please? I find it hard to believe that a part which only needs 1.65V and consumes around 2-3W (per stick) would have any kind of heat issues (ok, lets say you are doing some extreme overclocking and each stick eats 10W, then you might want to cool those chips a little perhaps ), so why would you need to cool DDR3 ram modules?


Just because the power consumption is small doesn't mean that you can easily dismiss the heat, generated by the electronic part.
Here's an example: you've probably heard about RaspberryPi embedded computers and you know that they are small. Max power requirements for Model B is around 5V 500mA, which is barely 2.5W peak for all of the components, including CPU, RAM and Ethernet controller. Even though not all of this power goes to Broadcom chip, at 100% load CPU heats up high enough to burn your fingers!

Same applies to RAM. The hottest one I had was a Corsair XMS2. I had an old case with LCD status display and a few built-in temperature probes. When OCed to 900MHz I'd have BSODS and freezes from, what I've assumed at the moment, was its natural limit. But when I've attached a thin-film thermistor to RAM heatsink, I was surprised to see that at nominal voltage and less than 10% overclock it was spiking at almost 80C!!! Replacing the thermal compound and adding a simple in-case gooseneck fan dropped temps to 55-60 and allowed stable work at ~920MHz. After few  years it still degraded to 890MHz max.


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## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

silentbogo said:


> Just because the power consumption is small doesn't mean that you can easily dismiss the heat, generated by the electronic part.
> Here's an example: you've probably heard about RaspberryPi embedded computers and you know that they are small. Max power requirements for Model B is around 5V 500mA, which is barely 2.5W peak for all of the components, including CPU, RAM and Ethernet controller. Even though not all of this power goes to Broadcom chip, at 100% load CPU heats up high enough to burn your fingers!
> 
> Same applies to RAM. The hottest one I had was a Corsair XMS2. I had an old case with LCD status display and a few built-in temperature probes. When OCed to 900MHz I'd have BSODS and freezes from, what I've assumed at the moment, was its natural limit. But when I've attached a thin-film thermistor to RAM heatsink, I was surprised to see that at nominal voltage and less than 10% overclock it was spiking at almost 80C!!! Replacing the thermal compound and adding a simple in-case gooseneck fan dropped temps to 55-60 and allowed stable work at ~920MHz. After few  years it still degraded to 890MHz max.


 A CPU is not memory, you can't compare the temp of those under "full load", and XMS2 was a ddr2 chip, those were a lot hotter because of the higher power requirements. Look at new graphics cards where they push ram chips as much as possible, yet they just put them naked on most of the cards. That's not because those engineers are clueless, but because they know that it's not needed.


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## cadaveca (Jul 10, 2015)

Ikaruga said:


> But some just de-lidding the chip to apply a better TIM there, so it will run cooler and last longer, and not to reach higher overclocks. I think it's a good thing if your chip runs 15C lower after a de-lid. I understand that it might not affect longevity much, but a hotter CPU affects its surroundings too, and that matters imho.


When you change the ability of the TIM to react, you also change the ability of the temp sensor to react to the current flowing through it. Silicon is a semi-conductor, whose electrical properties change with temperature. In the past, it was generally accepted that a change of 10c could lessen the lifespan of a component by half. However, it depends on the state of the silicon, and what doping methods are used, which affect the resistance of the circuit made by the CPU, that dictates whether than "10c = 1/2 life" is valid or not.


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## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> When you change the ability of the TIM to react, you also change the ability of the temp sensor to react to the current flowing through it. Silicon is a semi-conductor, whose electrical properties change with temperature. In the past, it was generally accepted that a change of 10c could lessen the lifespan of a component by half. However, it depends on the state of the silicon, and what doping methods are used, which affect the resistance of the circuit made by the CPU, that dictates whether than "10c = 1/2 life" is valid or not.


I fully understood your point ofc and agreed with it, and no it's probably not valid in my opinion, but what I was trying to say is that after I delided my CPU, the temps went down around it too, and my whole motherboard runs a lot cooler now. I did not and I will not push it any further than how it was stable and safe with the original TIM, so I hope it will never get to throttling where matters what you described could arise (it's a Haswell refresh and only runs at 4.6Ghz, so it never reached risky temps with the original TIM either).


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## cadaveca (Jul 10, 2015)

I get where you are coming from, for sure.

But, since the chip was designed to operate at higher temperatures, lowering them isn't going to have any significant impact on the lifespan of the chip. Yes, it can lower temps on other components as well, but since the majority of components (outside of memory and SDDs) are more than happy to operate between 80c-100c, going much lower isn't really going to have much of an impact.

In the example of the 4790K, Intel specifically designed these CPUs with a 4.6 GHz+ target. That means that these CPUs are capable of withstanding the current needed to maintain those clocks. Intel reps were very specific that because not all chips can handle these clockspeeds, Intel had found a way to reliably find CPUs within their production processes to pull these chips from.

With that idea in mind, not all chips are really capable of meeting those clockspeeds, unless they are a 4790K. Yes, some outside of that binning will do it...but some cannot. You need to understand WHY those other chips cannot keep those clocks to understand that safety, or lack thereof, of overclocking.

Yet, as I said before, companies would not have disclaimers about damage to components when OC'ing, unless you could PROVE IN A COURT OF LAW that OC could damage stuff. So no matter how you look at it, YES, OC can damage components.


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## silentbogo (Jul 10, 2015)

Here's what Micron has to say about DDR3:



> DDR3 is specified to operate at the standard 85°C case or an extended temperature range of 95°C with 2X the refresh rate.



By 2x refresh rate they mean that you have to refresh the contents of memory cells twice as often to keep the data intact.

Since technical document only covers DDR3 operating within normal specifications(DDR3-800, DDR3-1067, DDR3-1333), you can imagine what's happening with DDR3 sticks in your gaming rig



> At the higher DDR3 clock rates and with minimal air flow, DRAM will approach or exceed the 85°C level



https://www.micron.com/~/media/documents/products/presentation/ddr3_thermals_nonnda.pdf

If you read through the entire document, you'll see that with increased density (how many modules are on your motherboard) and insufficient airflow TJ also falls drastically even with the heatsink attached (the ability to disperse heat).

There's no testing data for faster RAM, but you can also scroll down to FBDIMM testing section: due to additional heat source on the board it adds some perspective to what the thermal characteristics of non-buffered but much faster RAM can be:


> A full module heat spreader decreases the DRAM and register temperatures; but to get the full benefits of the heat sink, increased air flows are required



In a hypothetical average gaming computer there is usually an adequate airflow for CPU, VGA and chipset, but if you don't have a fan moving the air around your DDR3 planks, you'll get pockets of hot air trapped in-between, which in critical cases may cause performance issues and reduce its lifespan.

So there is a reason why high-performance RAM comes with heatsinks and there is market for memory cooling devices.

Videocards are no different. High-end videocards have heatspreaders attached to VRAM, while low-end cards can afford to skip heatspreaders because GPU ICs generate less heat and HSF provides adequate airflow to keep temperature within recommended specs.


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## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> I get where you are coming from, for sure.
> 
> But, since the chip was designed to operate at higher temperatures, lowering them isn't going to have any significant impact on the lifespan of the chip. Yes, it can lower temps on other components as well, but since the majority of components (outside of memory and SDDs) are more than happy to operate between 80c-100c, going much lower isn't really going to have much of an impact.
> 
> ...


We need to test these things for science. Talking about it without testing is meh. We need an experiment with two (lets say) G3258s, one is running hot while the other is well cooled, and see if the hot starts to ask for more juice to maintain it's overclock.


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## cadaveca (Jul 10, 2015)

Ikaruga said:


> We need to test these things for science. Talking about it without testing is meh. We need an experiment with two (lets say) G3258s, one is running hot while the other is well cooled, and see if the hot starts to ask for more juice to maintain it's overclock.


Well therein lies the point of contention... no two chips are going to react to said conditions in the exact same way, because they will never be 100% physically identical.

But, I can say that the hot chip will throttle before reaching the point where temps may damage it, so doing such a task would be futile, nevermind it would probably take the better part of a decade.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jul 10, 2015)

silentbogo said:


> Here's what Micron has to say about DDR3:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a very nice documents, thanks for the link. I'm not going to question or counter the findings of that document, but I'm honestly puzzled now. I have two kits from Crucial and G.Skill both are without heat spreaders which I only bought to test this heat spreader theory some time ago. I vigorously tortured and tested these modules and never measured temps above 60-70C, so I don't know what to think now.



cadaveca said:


> Well therein lies the point of contention... no two chips are going to react to said conditions in the exact same way, because they will never be 100% physically identical.
> 
> But, I can say that the hot chip will throttle before reaching the point where temps may damage it, so doing such a task would be futile, nevermind it would probably take the better part of a decade.


Throttling is bad, if your CPU needs to throttle itself, you need better cooling, so I was thinking about safe high temps vs low temps (let's say 80C vs 40C), but yes, obviously this is something what can't really be tested because it would take a decade indeed.


----------



## silentbogo (Jul 10, 2015)

Ikaruga said:


> That's a very nice documents, thanks for the link. I'm not going to question or counter the findings of that document, but I'm honestly puzzled now. I have two kits from Crucial and G.Skill both are without heat spreaders which I only bought to test this heat spreader theory some time ago. I vigorously tortured and tested these modules and never measured temps above 60-70C, so I don't know what to think now.



It all depends on the type of measuring device and the way you measure it. Small fraction of unbuffered memory has a built-in temperature sensor, which gives the closest approximation of what the real temperature might be, but if you measure it externally, you will get lower temps and larger error margin, When I was measuring temps on my XMS2, I've attached 2 thermistors to the inner side of the heatsink with thermal paste. I've used the same input line on my CPU prior to that and I know that it differed from CPU readings by ~10-12C around the same temperature range. So, if I get average 70C on thermistors it can only mean that I have no less than 80 on the RAM itself. It's not totally accurate and reliable, but at least it is something.

Built-in sensors lie too... Right now it is around 30C in my house and just started to cool down outside. 
I'm struggling at the workdesk in my underwear, but my GPU is trying to convince me that  its core temperature is 32C


----------



## Aquinus (Jul 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> But, I can say that the hot chip will throttle before reaching the point where temps may damage it, so doing such a task would be futile, nevermind it would probably take the better part of a decade.


I believe we're talking about reducing the life span of CPUs as well, not just instantly killing it. Thermal limits may keep heat from killing it instantly, but it very well could degrade over time when exposed to larger temperature changes than under stock conditions. People see this when it takes more voltage to hold the same clock. We've seen that and it happens. You're right though, a CPU in most motherboards will shut itself off well before it gets so hot to instantly destroy it. My point was that bigger temperature fluctuations from over-volting are going to cause it to degrade faster than running it at stock given the swing in temperature is larger and you're not exceeding the breakdown voltage of the transitions in the CPU.

If you want to kill a CPU instantly, you get a hammer... or a firearm... or a _________ .


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 10, 2015)

Ikaruga said:


> Throttling is bad, if your CPU needs to throttle itself, you need better cooling, so I was thinking about safe high temps vs low temps (let's say 80C vs 40C), but yes, obviously this is something what can't really be tested because it would take a decade indeed.


Obviously you've never met a stock-cooled 4770K. They throttle all the time, as do laptop chips. CPUs running 90c++ was common until we had thermal monitoring, and then people starting cooking eggs on their PCs, and temps all of a sudden became a thing that normal users though about. I have been OC'ing, really, since 586 days, when soldering was the way it was done.

I'm not sure exactly why everyone has an aversion to parts running 100c, or throttling... if they are designed ot do this, then they do it, without any problems.


----------



## qubit (Jul 10, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> 18 years on the p2 300  (SLOT 1 )i bought with the specific intent of overclocking is still running at 550Mhz ( now inherited by my friends daughter for her personal computer)


Epic respect. 



cadaveca said:


> Votlage can exist without current, but current CANNOT exist without that difference in voltage.


Ok, just to be pedantic, you technically _can_ have current with zero voltage if the resistance is zero, but this will only be the case with a superconductor, of course.

The calculation V / R=I would then  suggest an infinite current flow, but of course this doesn't happen in this universe as there will be other limiting factors, such as internal resistance of the power source and resistance of the non superconducting wires connecting it to that source. And of course, if the whole lot were superconducting, then there would still be a limit to the current flow as the accuracy of that calculation breaks down as a model of nature in this edge case.


----------



## LightningJR (Jul 10, 2015)

qubit said:


> Epic respect.



Ahh i do miss the old days of overclocking where I had no idea what I was doing 

My first time overclocking was the Pentium 200Mhz to 233Mhz using the dip switch on my Compaq Deskpro, you talk about about smiles when I saw it actually worked.  Hooked straight away, then I needed to find out if I could overclock my S3 Virge, I believe it was possible, downloading Powerstrip on 56K and figuring it all out. Nostalgia at it's best. Wow, I had a 3.1GB HDD back then....I have 32GB of RAM now..


----------



## neatfeatguy (Jul 10, 2015)

Lowest voltage I could run my Phenom II x4 940 at stock speeds was 1.3125. I ran the sucker OC'ed to 3.6 for almost 3 years at 1.475v. If I wanted to push it as far as I could I ran her at 1.5125v to achieve 3.712. I used the CPU for over 5 years. The CPU is still going strong (stock speeds) in the PC I built the daughter.

I haven't had any issues running a decent OC on my Phenom II for an extended period of time. Just keep the temps low and you shouldn't run into any issues for a prolonged OC.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

qubit said:


> The calculation V / R=I would then  suggest an infinite current flow, but of course this doesn't happen in this universe as there will be other limiting factors, such as internal resistance of the power source and resistance of the non superconducting wires connecting it to that source. And of course, if the whole lot were superconducting, then there would still be a limit to the current flow as the accuracy of that calculation breaks down as a model of nature in this edge case.





No. Current DOES NOT FLOW without a difference between the two points it travels between. Voltage is simply a way of relating how many coulombs of electrons MIGHT flow, since it refers NOT to anything other than POTENTIAL FOR CURRENT (electron) FLOW. This is very basic electrical stuff...like grade 11.

IN the case of a super-conductor, yes, it is possible to have current stored there, but it was PUT there by a VOLTAGE (potential difference between the super conductor and whatever) in the first place, and at this point, the current that is "stored" is not "moving" between two points... and we are talking very miniscule amounts of current. At the same time, this effect is only present within the superconductor, and other parts of the circuit, well, they carry a voltage(potential difference).

BTW, dividing zero.... gives ZERO. LOL. Thanks for that laugh, though. If you have an iPhone, you should ask Siri about dividing zero. ROFL.


----------



## qubit (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> No. Current DOES NOT FLOW without a difference between the two points it travels between. Voltage is simply a way of relating how many coulombs of electrons MIGHT flow, since it refers NOT to anything other than POTENTIAL FOR CURRENT (electron) FLOW. This is very basic electrical stuff...like grade 11.
> 
> IN the case of a super-conductor, yes, it is possible to have current stored there, but it was PUT there by a VOLTAGE (potential difference between the super conductor and whatever) in the first place, and at this point, the current that is "stored" is not "moving" between two points... and we are talking very miniscule amounts of current. At the same time, this effect is only present within the superconductor, and other parts of the circuit, well, they carry a voltage(potential difference).
> 
> BTW, dividing zero.... gives ZERO. LOL. Thanks for that laugh, though. If you have an iPhone, you should ask Siri about dividing zero. ROFL.


I think you've misunderstood what I've said and for all your bluster and mockery, you don't really completely know what you're talking about either. You seem to have a thing about thinking that I spout nonesense when you don't actually understand what I've said and it's frankly fucking irritating. I never act like such a disrespectful douchebag towards you so perhaps you could just cool it, no? You actually know less than you think you do as well and I've seen other forum members correct you recently too, so you really don't look too clever.

I do know about voltage, current flow, power factor, transistors, capacitors etc having studied it at college many moons ago. Hence, I don't need a lesson from you IN CONDESCENDING CAPS about how voltage aka potential difference works, thanks. Of course, even if someone doesn't know much about electrical circuits and electronics, it doesn't justify that sort of attitude. Just so we're clear on this.

So, I was talking about the voltage across the _superconductor_. To make for a simple example that's easy to visualise, there is a 10cm long superconducting wire, say 2mm across. There's a current flowing through it. What do you think the voltage is across it? It's zero. Has to be since there's no resistance, as per the simple equation V= I x R. Of course, plugging in the numbers then gives an infinite current. However, we know that can't happen, hence that equation breaks down as a model for what happens in nature with this _edge_ case. To correctly model it, some more complicated calculation would have to be used that would take into account the physical current carrying capacity of that wire. Also, the current will be limited by the resistance of the rest of the circuit, so let's take a hypothetical example of where the whole circuit is superconducting, including the PSU. What then? You don't have any voltage anywhere in that circuit, yet you have current! Sounds nuts, but it's true. So yes, current _can_ flow without a voltage to generate it, but only in a superconductor.


btw, I replied to you 3 days ago and then told you that nice story here about my experience with a memory module back in 2003, proper enthusiast stuff that everyone here should relate to. That ended with a question of why do you think it worked the way it did, because I certainly don't know. You didn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge my post, let alone answer it. Besides being rather rude of you, I suspect you don't actually know the answer to it and that could be part of your lack of response. Well, now's your chance to actually show me that you know something that I don't and look clever. Go on!


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

You missed the joke, and obviously don't have an iPhone. Go find a mate with one and ask Siri "what happens when you divide zero by zero". Then you might find the amusement I have with your post.


BTW< I found your post that I responded to condescending, so responded in like. So go fuck yourself, you obviously love yourself more than anything anyway. ROFL.


Like really dude. I have posted countless times that I'm an idiot, and you still take me seriously? Really? Grow up.

And to answer about superconductors, it's called inductance.

And to your memory question, eat a dick, asshat. I'd rather W1zz fire me than deal with you and your BS.

Again, responding with what you dished out, the only difference is that I ain't afraid. Remember our time spent together in teamspeak.


----------



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 11, 2015)

I enjoy a good debate about undeniable facts.

I still say overclock the bollocks off it.


----------



## qubit (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> You missed the joke, and obviously don't have an iPhone. Go find a mate with one and ask Siri "what happens when you divide zero by zero". Then you might find the amusement I have with your post.
> 
> 
> BTW< I found your post that I responded to condescending, so responded in like. So go fuck yourself, you obviously love yourself more than anything anyway. ROFL.
> ...


Yeah, I was right about you. You actually think you're better than people and have a real fucking superior attitude, maybe because you did reviews for TPU, I dunno. You don't talk to me in that shitty manner. You go fuck yourself.

If that was a Siri joke then yes, I missed it, likely because I don't have an iPhone, but an Android phone, so shoot me. I'll take this one bit in good humour then.

Inductance or no inductance, it still doesn't change the fact that there is zero voltage with current flowing. If you think there is, then link to an article that explains it, smartypants.

You don't know the answer to my memory question, do you?  Replacing a proper answer with a cheap jibe is a very big tell. Oh dear.

Teamspeak with whom? Not me, I've never been on there.

EDIT: Let's just remember that I was friendly towards you and it's you that started being a douchebag with me, not the other way round. All this crap is totally your doing.


----------



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 11, 2015)

This o/c is heading for BSOD.
I think it was a voltage issue.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

qubit said:


> Yeah, I was right about you. You actually think you're better than people and have a real fucking superior attitude, maybe because you did reviews for TPU, I dunno. You don't talk to me in that shitty manner. You go fuck yourself.
> 
> If that was a Siri joke then yes, I missed it, likely because I don't have an iPhone, but an Android phone, so shoot me. I'll take this one bit in good humour then.
> 
> ...


NOt really, no, I don't think highly of myself at all. But I do enjoy a good joke, and because you missed it, you're miffed? Oh well. You can't please all the people all the time...


You're a pot. I'm a kettle. Who gives a fuk? only you it seems, I'm enjoying myself.

But really dude, google superconductors and inductance and you'll have your answer. I paid good money to go to school to learn this stuff. It makes more sense to NOT answer than it does TO answer. It's about being humble.


See, I don't care. You seem mad. Oh well. Why would my words get you mad? You soft or something? Here's a hint.. the sentence that preceded this one is a joke. Not a troll. Not me being glib... a joke. Laugh it off, move on. I can't help that my sense of humour annoys you.

And just to put it out there, i'm a 40-year-old jobless bum, living off my wife while still going to college, with a criminal record longer than the eye can see. I'm the last person who thinks highly of themselves. Doing reviews is meaningless. I do a poor job, and had W1zz hire someone to fix my poor writing. And this is something that makes me think highly of myself? WHUT!?! 

You've missed the mark, mate.


----------



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 11, 2015)

This o/c needs liquid cooling.

May i humbly suggest  Stella Artois.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> This o/c needs liquid cooling.
> 
> May i humbly suggest  Stella Artois.


Stella is a bit too bitter for me. I am drinking Sleeman Cream Ale. Never tried it before, it's kinda watery. But water and OCs are a perfect match. LoL.


----------



## Schmuckley (Jul 11, 2015)

Rape it!
Asus PRO boards are strong.I'm uncertain as to whether or not it has the OC socket,I know the Deluxe does.
Those chips umm..require some pretty heavy -duty cooling.


If you're feeling adventurous: 
http://www.overclock.net/t/1503843/my-bong-cooler-build-log-evaporative-cooling/0_100
$170 for CPU loop.
I'd use a 48-qt cooler for the res, though.I do 
for..4 yrs now, maybe.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

Please can we get back to how to blow up CPUs and not have one guy hating some other goofy bastard... you two can sort out who is who


----------



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 11, 2015)

Ok.

 How to blow up a cpu in one easy step.

1) send it to me

edit
2) send it to @sneekypeet


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

I blew one up, @cadaveca and @erocker can attest to that mess! 2000MHz 6-6-6-18 @ 1.85V, what was I thinking.....lmao


----------



## Schmuckley (Jul 11, 2015)

on ddr4?


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

Schmuckley said:


> on ddr4?


DDR3, was some Corsair GTs if i recall the situation correctly.


----------



## Schmuckley (Jul 11, 2015)

1.85v on Hypers/PSC on air would not be good.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

Schmuckley said:


> 1.85v on Hypers/PSC on air would not be good.



No it was not


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

sneekypeet said:


> I blew one up, @cadaveca and @erocker can attest to that mess! 2000MHz 6-6-6-18 @ 1.85V, what was I thinking.....lmao


I told you not too...LoL... that was good sport man, +1 for not giving up.

THe 1.85V was fine...what the problem was, was the CAS6. To make it even more funny, I gave you those rams...and had already done the same. But oh well. You paid to play, and paly you did. It's probably what burnt up the CPU, too ROFL, and you used that CPU for AGES after it was burnt.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> I told you not too...LoL... that was good sport man, +1 for not giving up.
> 
> THe 1.85V was fine...what the problem was was the CAS6. To make even more funny, I gave him those rams...and had already done the same. But oh well.



Gotta learn somehow right.....
Also Dave, if you get a chance, grab some of them Super Luce sticks. Let me know what you think of them, but for sport, don't run them on a gigabyte motherboard. (Had to run 1.55V through them on the RVE....sporting good fun that was.)


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

only 1.55V...dude...1.75V!!!


If they are Hynix, they can take it. Seriously though... don't be afraid to juice that DDR4.

You could be a bro and tell your contact to email me....would love to give them some front page time. 

The only Gigabyte board I got is the G1. And it was broke when I got it. I did explain this to my contact, who didn't want to replace it, so no worries there.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> only 1.55V...dude...1.75V!!!
> 
> 
> If they are Hynix, they can take it. Seriously though... don't be afraid to juice that DDR4.
> ...



SECs actually, and 1.55V only got me to 3200MHz and the kits spec'd for 3400. Got the timings down a touch, but a ton of work to get right without a GB SOC Champion on hand.

Let me do some digging and I will PM you.


----------



## MrGenius (Jul 11, 2015)

@qubit dude's a total <insert harsh expletive here>. Has know clue of that which he speaks(or worse advertises his complete ignorance of in his sig).There's no hope for him. Just walk away knowing you smoked his ass like a Pall Mall. Nice job brother!


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

MrGenius said:


> @qubit dude's a total <insert harsh expletive here>. Has know clue of that which he speaks(or worse advertises his complete ignorance of in his sig).There's no hope for him. Just walk away knowing you smoked his ass like a Pall Mall. Nice job brother!


+1. And thanks for noting my sig. You are correct in your assentation.



sneekypeet said:


> SECs actually, and 1.55V only got me to 3200MHz and the kits spec'd for 3400. Got the timings down a touch, but a ton of work to get right without a GB SOC Champion on hand.
> 
> Let me do some digging and I will PM you.


Yeah, that's an odd one, isn't it.

But it does kind of pull things back on topic. Here we have an instance of attaining clock only possible due to how the board is designed... Which obviously can have an impact on how "safe" OC'ing can or might not be.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> But it does kind of pull things back on topic. Here we have an instance of attaining clock only possible due to how the board is designed... Which obviously can have an impact on how "safe" OC'ing can or might not be.



Exactly. Even pushing them that far too, temperatures were in spec as well. I have seen guys go as far as 1.88V with DDR4 that is said to run at 1.35V maximum, and they have survived to run again. Although the same guys doing such things don't really care if something blows up in their face and needs replaced.


----------



## Schmuckley (Jul 11, 2015)




----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

sneekypeet said:


> Exactly. Even pushing them that far too, temperatures were in spec as well. I have seen guys go as far as 1.88V with DDR4 that is said to run at 1.35V maximum, and they have survived to run again. Although the same guys doing such things don't really care if something blows up in their face and needs replaced.




I hate to ask this, but why would you care? LOL.

I heard it mentioned by someone that first-run DDR4 was more like DDR3 than DDR4 fully, robust-ness-wise, so pushing 1.65V wasn't that big of a deal. I have also noted that DDR4 isn't like those hypers... those hypers kept the scaling going with voltage increases every step of the way, but DDR4 seems to drop off. At least, under air.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> I hate to ask this, but why would you care? LOL.
> 
> I heard it mentioned by someone that first-run DDR4 was more like DDR3 than DDR4 fully, robust-ness-wise, so pushing 1.65V wasn't that big of a deal. I have also noted that DDR4 isn't like those hypers... those hypers kept the scaling going with voltage increases every step of the way, but DDR4 seems to drop off. At least, under air.



I paid for the CPU (Don't really want to drop another $600 to replace it, and take a chance of getting a shit IMC), and isn't likely I would get another motherboard either. So there is a safety factor I have to consider. Also I am looking for something reasonable that I can say do this and that, and most users are warm and fuzzy with what I tell em to match my results.

If I were in your seat, I would care a little less


----------



## Schmuckley (Jul 11, 2015)

Whatever that crappy ddr4 that I got is..it doesn't scale with voltage;pretty sure it's Microns.Will not budge over 2800.
I know it's straying off-topic,but does anybody know of any good kits?
PS:I heard Stella causes man-boobs.


----------



## qubit (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> NOt really, no, I don't think highly of myself at all. But I do enjoy a good joke, and because you missed it, you're miffed? Oh well. You can't please all the people all the time...
> 
> 
> You're a pot. I'm a kettle. Who gives a fuk? only you it seems, I'm enjoying myself.
> ...


Ok, we can't go on too long about this given sneeky's warning, but if you're being humorous can you please stick a smiley or two in it?! Otherwise it all comes out a bit serious and things can escalate with misunderstandings, lol.

Also, I think you may have taken my first post where I said about being pedantic as somehow negating what you said, but no, I wasn't. Being the proper techy nerd that I am, I love edge cases like this, so just wanted to talk about the one weird case where current exists without voltage. Oh and I'm hardly the last word on superconductors  and I'm sure there's a lot to learn that I don't know. I don't think even scientists at the cutting edge of it fully get it afaik. If you have some interesting link about this subject, I'd love to see it (either here, pm, or a new thread).

I'm really sorry about you situation (bold bit) it sounds pretty tough buddy, but at least you've got a great wife who's supporting you. And no I'm truly not being sarcastic here. You wanna sound off in pm about it with me one day, I'm all ears. 

I've never seen you as the bad guy and I'm more than happy to go back to being on good terms as of right now. This is water under the bridge for me now.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 11, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> This o/c needs liquid cooling.
> 
> May i humbly suggest  Stella Artois.



I like him ^ got a 12 pack in the fridge.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jul 11, 2015)

Schmuckley said:


> Whatever that crappy ddr4 that I got is..it doesn't scale with voltage;pretty sure it's Microns.Will not budge over 2800.
> I know it's straying off-topic,but does anybody know of any good kits?



It is off topic for this thread. PM me, I may be able to help you out.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jul 11, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> Obviously you've never met a stock-cooled 4770K. They throttle all the time, as do laptop chips. CPUs running 90c++ was common until we had thermal monitoring, and then people starting cooking eggs on their PCs, and temps all of a sudden became a thing that normal users though about. I have been OC'ing, really, since 586 days, when soldering was the way it was done.


I spent a good decade with overclocking, it was one of my hobbies, so yes I know what you are talking about, and I did not say that thermal throttle doesn't happen, all I said that you need better cooling if it does. I understand that throttle is part of the "normal" operation, but it's not part of the optimal usage and user experience, hence it's a good thing to avoid it, which can best achieved with better cooling (assuming voltage and clocks are already optimal).


----------



## Aquinus (Jul 11, 2015)

qubit said:


> so just wanted to talk about the one weird case where current exists without voltage


We could have an entire discussion on this topic alone.  What you describe is a little unusual in a DC circuit though because even if voltage were to go to zero, the current induced by an inductor releasing its energy will result in a change in voltage since resistance is most likely going to remain constant. Since inductors resist change in current, the current created by the inductor will actually cause voltage as a result of the resistance in the circuit. Also zero resistance doesn't mean infinite current, it means zero resistance, as in zero energy lost as current travels through it. You're still limited by the number of electrons available to be moved (which is where Dave's usage of coulombs, which is the actual measurement of electric charge (not electric potential, volts,) comes into play.) Usually the case of current and no voltage is in AC circuits where inductive loads cause the current to go out of phase from the provided AC voltage and this is referred to as reactive power. This can cause a current draw when the AC circuit voltage is zero but, it can also be the case that a non-zero voltage can have zero current.

I just felt a little more information on the topic was in order as there seemed to be a bit of confusion. Not to say that what anyone said was particularly incorrect, just incomplete.

With that said, I would recommend playing with CircuitLab if it was still free. I'm pretty pissed off that it isn't anymore. It was a fun tool for prototyping simple circuits.

I apologize ahead of time if anyone considers this post off topic.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 11, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> With that said, I would recommend playing with CircuitLab if it was still free. I'm pretty pissed off that it isn't anymore



Funny that 
It stopped being free after i Prototyped a T9000 CPU code name "Arni " on the Site
some one called Skynet sent me a DCMA notice


----------



## Frick (Jul 11, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> With that said, I would recommend playing with CircuitLab if it was still free. I'm pretty pissed off that it isn't anymore. It was a fun tool for prototyping simple circuits.



Oh good grief yes, that tool was a godsend for real. Now it's hateful, $16/month and you can't even use if commercially?  It's like electrical drawings, your choices are an insanely complicated engineering CAD program or ANOTHER insanely complicated CAD program, and all you want to do is draw simple line diagrams and installations mortals without architecture/engineering degrees can understand.


----------



## Red_Machine (Jul 11, 2015)

I have a 3770K OC'd to 4.5GHz, cooled by a Thermaltake Water 2.0 Extreme.  Temps are so low, they're lower than the chip would be if it were running at stock clocks with stock cooling.  I'm not worrying about degreadation at all, to be honest.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 11, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> We could have an entire discussion on this topic alone.


Which, if you know a bit, exposes the means behind the method, given the stage this act has played out on, but it'd definitely make for a good subject in the science forum.


I have had many many CPUs degrade or die. The 4770K is used to review many Z87 and Z97 boards does not like to run 4 sticks over 2133 MHz any more, where before I was pushing 2800 MHz with ease (and all the way up to 3400 MHz).

The rest of the CPU's clocking ability, if I only use 2 sticks, works fine. I even just finished trying out my old Avexir 3100 MHz kit, and it still easily goes over 3300, and that's where I stopped playing.

I have both retail and ES 4790K chips. I have many ES chips, in fact. ES chips are very brittle in my experience, and cannot handle long-term OCs at all. If you veer outside of Intel's specifications, death approaches quickly, very similar to what other users report about degradation and needing more voltage. This isn't something that can be fixed by changing motherboards or any other component... I have enough hardware to be able to test for such things and have only had memory degrade, but almost never a motherboard unless it's been P67-based, or has had poor MOSFET cooling. Retail CPUs do not seem to suffer in the same way, but given that there are difference form one chip to the next, it's hard to ascertain what the real story is about how these chips degraded other than by OC'ing. And I can say that pretty specifically, because I quite purposely only OC within Intel's listed "safe maximums", which is far lower than you'll see most OC guides offer as OK.


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## dorsetknob (Jul 11, 2015)

no one has mentioned the problem of electron migration in all this Kerfuffle

Given we are going to ever smaller die size and increased die density then electron migration is an ever increasing problem especialy if your overclocking these smaller and denser chips with higher Voltage and Current


Ps under an electron microscope damage from electron migration looks nearly identical to damage from ESD


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## LightningJR (Jul 11, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> no one has mentioned the problem of electron migration in all this Kerfuffle
> 
> Given we are going to ever smaller die size and increased die density then electron migration is an ever increasing problem especialy if your overclocking these smaller and denser chips with higher Voltage and Current
> 
> ...



Indeed, this is also going to be a problem when trying to reach lower and lower process technology. We have already been seeing the effects of the limitations of going smaller when the trend of lower process isn't giving us much improvement in the way of power required or heat output.. At least in larger chips anyway.

We need a breakthrough in Graphene development that makes it more affordable to produce or some other material/idea. We'll see a massive slow down in Moore's Law if not, a Technological Depression...


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## qubit (Jul 12, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> We could have an entire discussion on this topic alone.  What you describe is a little unusual in a DC circuit though because even if voltage were to go to zero, the current induced by an inductor releasing its energy will result in a change in voltage since resistance is most likely going to remain constant. Since inductors resist change in current, the current created by the inductor will actually cause voltage as a result of the resistance in the circuit. Also zero resistance doesn't mean infinite current, it means zero resistance, as in zero energy lost as current travels through it. You're still limited by the number of electrons available to be moved (which is where Dave's usage of coulombs, which is the actual measurement of electric charge (not electric potential, volts,) comes into play.) Usually the case of current and no voltage is in AC circuits where inductive loads cause the current to go out of phase from the provided AC voltage and this is referred to as reactive power. This can cause a current draw when the AC circuit voltage is zero but, it can also be the case that a non-zero voltage can have zero current.
> 
> I just felt a little more information on the topic was in order as there seemed to be a bit of confusion. Not to say that what anyone said was particularly incorrect, just incomplete.
> 
> ...



Everybody, I've started a new thread about this, here: www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/superconductors.214239


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