# $1000 audiophile Lan cable



## silkstone (Nov 3, 2019)

Wow! Just.... Wow!
Some people have more money than sense.









						The JCAT Signature LAN - A $1,000 Ethernet Cable - Audio Bacon
					

Intro Contents 1. Intro2. JCAT Signature LAN Cable3. Sound4. Comparisons5. Permutations & Findings6. Final ThoughtsCommentsLike many of you, I woke up thinking “You know what, I feel like listening to some audiophile Ethernet cables today!” So I brew up my morning coffee, line up the cables, and...




					audiobacon.net
				




From one of his patron's 

"“MEASUREMENT MORONS”
Thank you!!!
You stated my my view to the letter, with 1 exception. I call them :”Flat Landers” rather than Measurement Morons.
As we know “Flat Landers” KNEW that the world was flat, in much the same way that audio naysayers KNOW that the things that they either can’t afford or don’t want to pay for cannot possibly change the sound.
We as humans are still the equivalent to infants in our knowledge.
Just because WE DON’T YET KNOW how to perform the appropriate measurements to satisfy the Measurement Morons, does not mean changes do not exist."


----------



## CityCultivator (Nov 3, 2019)

What a moron!


----------



## Mussels (Nov 3, 2019)

ewww


----------



## ShurikN (Nov 3, 2019)

Snake oil 101


----------



## Palladium (Nov 3, 2019)

*insert placebophilia's extreme lengths to avoid double blind tests here*

Makes a 2080 Ti looks like a complete bargain.


----------



## blobster21 (Nov 3, 2019)

I suppose we will never know why _it makes the other cables sound a bit speckled and tainted_, or how _in comparison, most other Ethernet cable sounds relatively “blobby” and “lazy.”
_
because_ it’s more efficient for (him) to listen, describe what (he) hear, and decide what (he) prefer_

And obviously he prefer the $1000 cables (btw did he keep the reviewing sample ?)


----------



## repman244 (Nov 3, 2019)

Audio world is completely delusional, instead of making the components that actually make a difference better, people invest incredible amounts of money into stuff like cables.
What I find even more stupid is expensive cables which transmit digital data, it's 1s and 0s if you receive what you send you won't benefit from "better" cables - then you have people who talk about noise being introduced in digital data...then you also have people which believe CD-R sound worse than original CDs....


----------



## silentbogo (Nov 3, 2019)

LoL     


> I would perform measurements, but it’s more efficient for me to listen, describe what I hear, and decide what I prefer.



Comment section is even more hillarious. In his "audiophile" ethernet switches article some idiot compared skeptics to "flat-earthers".


----------



## silkstone (Nov 3, 2019)

silentbogo said:


> LoL
> 
> 
> Comment section is even more hillarious. In his "audiophile" ethernet switches article some idiot compared skeptics to "flat-earthers".



Nice I didn't even see those, I'm going to have to read now and maybe update the OP with some quotes.


----------



## delshay (Nov 3, 2019)

Audioquest Diamond cable, you may want to look at the cost. HDMI, USB, Ethernet, ect, ect.





__





						Cables
					

AudioQuest cables and other audio products combine solid conductors, high-purity metals, specialized geometries, and stable dielectrics to enable naturally beautiful sounds and images.




					www.audioquest.com
				




On this website is some of the worlds most expensive cable. Think yourself lucky, there are more expensive cables out there.









						Futureshop.co.uk - Hi-FI Cable & Home Cinema Cable Specialists.
					

Future Shop, Largest European Hi-FI Cable & Home Cinema Cable Specialists, Offering a Wide Range of Award Winning Cables and AV Connectivity Solutions




					www.futureshop.co.uk


----------



## silkstone (Nov 3, 2019)

The Writer of these articles runs a company that builds and sells (I'm assuming, based on the company's name - Lossless, Inc.) Audiophile computer systems.


----------



## silkstone (Nov 3, 2019)

delshay said:


> Audioquest Diamond cable, you may want to look at the cost. HDMI, USB, Ethernet, ect, ect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My god!

For a 1m cable the price is 1200 GBP!!!

Who in their right mind would buy that when they could go for 10m for the low low price of 2550 GBP.









						Tellurium Q Silver Diamond Digital Streaming Ethernet Cable
					

Pushing the performance of the Black Diamond Digital Streaming cable, the Silver Diamond gives an audibly better performance (as you would expect).




					www.futureshop.co.uk


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 3, 2019)

Well, you know some idiot with more money than brains will buy it. This is what happens when you have an entire segment of people who buy the most expensive thing just to have "the best." Well, these people get what they deserve if they buy this. I know better, but rich people can go ahead and waste their money. I give zero shits if they screw themselves over.


----------



## repman244 (Nov 3, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Well, you know some idiot with more money than brains will buy it. This is what happens when you have an entire segment of people who buy the most expensive thing just to have "the best." Well, these people get what they deserve if they buy this. I know better, but rich people can go ahead and waste their money. I give zero shits if they screw themselves over.



I agree with you on this, but the companies that sell these should be called out for their misleading marketing and idiotic statements about high purity metals, cable geometry, sound signature and other bs.
This applies especially for cables meant for digital transmission - you either have the data or you don't.


----------



## silkstone (Nov 3, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Well, you know some idiot with more money than brains will buy it. This is what happens when you have an entire segment of people who buy the most expensive thing just to have "the best." Well, these people get what they deserve if they buy this. I know better, but rich people can go ahead and waste their money. I give zero shits if they screw themselves over.



You would hope so, but I betcha the crowd is mainly the same as the Apple (or insert latest and greatest overpriced phone) crowd who save up for months at a time just to upgrade something that works just fine. I saw some posts on that shopping site that said just this . . . schmuck  didn't have the money for a new DAC so he put the money into an overpriced cable.


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 3, 2019)

silkstone said:


> schmuck didn't have the money for a new DAC so he put the money into an overpriced cable.


That's a slightly different class of people, instead of more money than brains, they have neither money nor brains. If you buy an expensive product without doing research, you're getting what you deserve. It's sort of like spending 10 dollars on a bottle of "artisanal water".


----------



## delshay (Nov 3, 2019)

I hope you guys do realise that digital signal that travel though a cable lives in an analog world.


----------



## CityCultivator (Nov 3, 2019)

delshay said:


> I hope you guys do realise that digital signal that travel though a cable lives in an analog world.


Indeed, that's true. For this reason, Ethernet technology has error correcting features to prevent data loss. Still, this means that bad Ethernet gets lower speed than maximum.
*That doesn't mean that digital audio gets bad.* It just reach the destination after some retry. Gigabit ethernet, even with lousy connection will always be enough for uncompressed digital audio.
Uncompressed audio formats on Blu-Ray run at a maximum of 30 mbps.
Finally  the signal will always be buffered before being sent to DAC.


----------



## Aquinus (Nov 3, 2019)

delshay said:


> I hope you guys do realise that digital signal that travel though a cable lives in an analog world.


Yes, but there is a difference between interference when you (a human,) are the receiver and when a computer is the receiver.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 3, 2019)

silkstone said:


> Wow! Just.... Wow!
> Some people have more money than sense.
> 
> 
> ...


Ill stick with ny "blobby" sounding free one i found in a box.

Ill just make do with my digital 1s and 0s being a bit blobby and pathetic sounding!.

Wtaf?!!?


----------



## MrGRiMv25 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hahaha, yeah I always wonder about these people... I spent 3 years at a sound engineering and audio technology college and cables only really matter for analogue signals, pretty much any half decent ethernet cable is fine since as pretty much every sane person in this thread has mentioned it's just 0's n 1's with error correction. I always wonder if they have those kind of cables but with a really piss poor DAC at the other end?

These fools will try and validate their purchase of obscenely expensive cables carrying digital data by saying they can "hear" the difference - put them in a blind test situation and they'd never even know.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Nov 3, 2019)

There have been plenty of articles about these kind of crap products before.








						To the audiophile, this $10,000 Ethernet cable apparently makes sense
					

In reality, one-way silver cable does nothing but make "audiophools" poorer.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## repman244 (Nov 3, 2019)

delshay said:


> I hope you guys do realise that digital signal that travel though a cable lives in an analog world.



It does, but if you send 0101 and receive 0101 the job is done, there was no error in transmission and the data is identical. You cannot "colour" a digital signal like adding noise etc. If for example the sent signal is transmitted as 0110 that's considered as error and you will hear it as a drop-out.
Digital world is quite simple - the signal is ok or it isn't.


----------



## Steevo (Nov 3, 2019)

Google Brilliant Pebbles.


----------



## CityCultivator (Nov 3, 2019)

repman244 said:


> It does, but if you send 0101 and receive 0101 the job is done, there was no _error in transmission _and the data is identical. You cannot "colour" a digital signal like adding noise etc. If for example the sent signal is transmitted as 0110 that's considered as error and you will hear it as a drop-out.
> Digital world is quite simple - the signal is ok or it isn't.


To be clear, there _is _transmission errors and noise can be a major issue, but Ethernet has error detection and recovery.
At gigabit speeds, the digital signal in wires is very similar to analogue data.
But what the network card send to the CPU/DAC is clear digital data.


----------



## repman244 (Nov 3, 2019)

CityCultivator said:


> To be clear, there _is _transmission errors and noise can be a major issue, but Ethernet has error detection and recovery.
> At gigabit speeds, the digital signal in wires is very similar to analogue data.
> But what the network card send to the CPU/DAC is clear digital data.



I agree with you but what I meant was, you don't hear it like noise on your speakers/headphones which can sometimes be a problem with analogue path.
Errors and noise that do impact the signal is heard as a drop-out and not as altered sound.


----------



## killster1 (Nov 3, 2019)

well sure it sounds like a waste of money to us, but what if you are a audio nut or a billionaire? it doesnt sound to far off then right?   i enjoyed the review i know on projectors i can see the rainbows from the color wheels but my ears most likely are not good enough to hear the diff in most cables ;( but most likely i dont have the right speakers to begin with to hear such fine music.. using 18" daytons in flatpacks i made myself with a pair of infinity 12" diy at my other house, both sets will knock the pictures off the walls of my neighbors house and had to go around using hotglue to solve rattles here and there. but i think i lack on the polk speakers i bought for the rest of the setup.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Nov 3, 2019)

Isn't it really some sort of money laundering scheme. It would make sense then.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Nov 3, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Isn't it really some sort of money laundering scheme. It would make sense then.



A novel way to exploit the wealthy 1%. Conjuring PT Barrnum. A salesman's delight. Just use a lot of esoteric verbiage.


----------



## dorsetknob (Nov 3, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Isn't it really some sort of money laundering scheme. It would make sense then.


More like a Military Procurment Scam ($10 item sold for $1000 >>>> black ops Slush fund /budget)


----------



## repman244 (Nov 3, 2019)

killster1 said:


> well sure it sounds like a waste of money to us, but what if you are a audio nut or a billionaire? it doesnt sound to far off then right?   i enjoyed the review i know on projectors i can see the rainbows from the color wheels but my ears most likely are not good enough to hear the diff in most cables ;( but most likely i dont have the right speakers to begin with to hear such fine music.. using 18" daytons in flatpacks i made myself with a pair of infinity 12" diy at my other house, both sets will knock the pictures off the walls of my neighbors house and had to go around using hotglue to solve rattles here and there. but i think i lack on the polk speakers i bought for the rest of the setup.



I put a lot of money towards my audio system, but these days I mostly buy music and not the hardware - I enjoy listening more than buying stuff which are unnecessary. 
The thing about people with too much money is at most of them don't enjoy their audio system, they continue to buy stuff which are supposed to improve it - the specs say so right?
The best audio system is the one YOU enjoy and love listening to not the system with best specs - just like your setup, if you enjoy it, it's the best system!


----------



## silkstone (Nov 3, 2019)

repman244 said:


> I put a lot of money towards my audio system, but these days I mostly buy music and not the hardware - I enjoy listening more than buying stuff which are unnecessary.
> The thing about people with too much money is at most of them don't enjoy their audio system, they continue to buy stuff which are supposed to improve it - the specs say so right?
> The best audio system is the one YOU enjoy and love listening to not the system with best specs - just like your setup, if you enjoy it, it's the best system!


Couldn't agree more. My Spotify subscription and $20 Xiaomi earbuds do just fine


----------



## killster1 (Nov 3, 2019)

repman244 said:


> I put a lot of money towards my audio system, but these days I mostly buy music and not the hardware - I enjoy listening more than buying stuff which are unnecessary.
> The thing about people with too much money is at most of them don't enjoy their audio system, they continue to buy stuff which are supposed to improve it - the specs say so right?
> The best audio system is the one YOU enjoy and love listening to not the system with best specs - just like your setup, if you enjoy it, it's the best system!


i use hdmi sadly and i dont listen to music anymore unless im alone in the car ;( just use it for movies nowdays, but i do enjoy it and building it was so fun and they look so cool with textured paint and all.


----------



## delshay (Nov 3, 2019)

repman244 said:


> I put a lot of money towards my audio system, but these days I mostly buy music and not the hardware - I enjoy listening more than buying stuff which are unnecessary.
> The thing about people with too much money is at most of them don't enjoy their audio system, they continue to buy stuff which are supposed to improve it - the specs say so right?
> The best audio system is the one YOU enjoy and love listening to not the system with best specs - just like your setup, if you enjoy it, it's the best system!



I find the best audio equipment are the ones with just a volume & input select switch, nothing else.


----------



## thesmokingman (Nov 3, 2019)

The irony is that some people are actually buying these cables since these fleecers have been doing this for decades.



TheLostSwede said:


> There have been plenty of articles about these kind of crap products before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Better yet how about a $650K turntable? That would then make those cables trivial lol.









						Home theater gear fit for royalty (pictures)
					

Hide your wallets. Crave continues its look at luxury entertainment with some of the highest-end home theater equipment around -- including a few multimillion dollar setups that will blow you away.




					www.cnet.com


----------



## delshay (Nov 3, 2019)

thesmokingman said:


> The irony is that some people are actually buying these cables since these fleecers have been doing this for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a nice turntable. I hope you can clamp the vinyl down on such an expensive turntable.


----------



## oobymach (Nov 3, 2019)

There are tube cd players that cost an arm and a leg, why anyone in their right mind would run a clean source like a cd through tubes with a 30% distortion ratio is just mind boggling. Tubes were meant to distort, that's why they're popular in guitar amps. Way back in the day when the vinyl record was producing 20% distortion because of its format and you fed it through a tube amp your music sounded like crap compared with a 24bit 384khz encoding.









						2016 Editors' Chioce Awards: Disc Players $2,000 - $10,000 - The Absolute Sound
					

2016 Editors' Chioce Awards: Disc Players $2,000 - $10,000 -




					www.theabsolutesound.com
				




Also, I don't feed music through an ethernet cable, why or even how you would do this idfk, but I guarantee this, information coming through that cable is in digital format, not analog, which means it doesn't get turned into audio until it hits your dac converter aka your sound card, which means the cable doesn't matter at all.


----------



## thesmokingman (Nov 3, 2019)

^^You just killed the tube headphone amp market dude!





__





						Home Page
					

Stereophile covers everything high-end and audiophile audio. Turntables and music servers, to solid-state and tube amplifiers and preamps, to loudspeakers.




					www.innerfidelity.com


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 3, 2019)

Tube amps are strange to me too.  My setup is with a good quality solid state amp and I really doubt I will change that.

Some people like distortion, I guess.  I don't.


----------



## delshay (Nov 3, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Tube amps are strange to me too.  My setup is with a good quality solid state amp and I really doubt I will change that.
> 
> Some people like distortion, I guess.  I don't.



That's because your not suppose to turn the volume noob all the way up, be reasonable with it. If it's not loud enough, then you need a more powerful amp.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 3, 2019)

Don't feed the troll applies here


----------



## Bones (Nov 3, 2019)

Question - Does that $1,000 cable come with a complimentary tube of vaso?


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 3, 2019)

delshay said:


> That's because your not suppose to turn the volume noob all the way up, be reasonable with it. If it's not loud enough, then you need a more powerful amp.



Not an issue for me.


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 3, 2019)

Guys, there is no need to try to reason with these kind of people.

I used to run an electronics store; once I found that I could sell 12AWG silver speaker wires, and add 200% to the cost just for "Pre Burned in" cables, I was willing to tell them whatever they wanted to hear.

Tube amps add distortion; that's why guitar players like them, especially driven to distortion.
They tend to accentuate 2nd order harmonics, which we find pleasing for some reason.
Silicon amps tend to accentuate 3rd order harmonics, which we find less so.
I think it has to do with the output impedance matching circuitry, as clipping is clipping.

To do music Reproduction, I want to hear every screech and rumble they recorded, faithfully.

That's why I have amps that do 100+ watts per channel at 0.001%THD, 20-20kHz.
My stereo in my car is now better than my home, in sheer wattage output, lol.

They haven't made amps like that since the 70's; most of the best spec-ed amps now are Class D or Class T amps, and there, the output filters are everything.
I don't want an amp that's a filtered square wave, personally.

You can't argue with these guys; I've tried double blind testing, everything, but they will believe what they want to believe.

I noticed a few years back that a $1000 monster hdmi cable had a Samtec logo molded into it, in a pic on their website; I was able to confirm the cable was an off the shelf 3m hdmi cable.
I got 5 of them sampled to me for free, lol.

Monster got a headsup, and had the logo removed, lol.

In short, don't bother trying to educate these guys; Profit instead!

Those cables bought me a new engine for Racecar, lol.


----------



## robot zombie (Nov 3, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Tube amps are strange to me too.  My setup is with a good quality solid state amp and I really doubt I will change that.
> 
> Some people like distortion, I guess.  I don't.


I like tube amps to a degree... sometimes they can sound really pleasant. Kinda recording and transducer dependent. The old-school tube amps with gobs of distortion, I don't get into too much, but some people like that kind of lush, smoothed-over sound. Personally I like just a sprinkle of distortion, like some of the hybrids out there offer. Seems to play nicer with recordings that are naturally pretty sibilant, like a lot of modern recordings (or those remasters of old recordings.) When something that used to sound grating and almost painful doesn't anymore, I notice that for sure!  Tube rolling is a part of it for some folks, too. Certain ones distort differently. People spend hundreds of dollars a piece in sets of however many their amps take. Not my idea of a good time, but to each their own. Most of them seem more into the history side of it.

I'm willing to invest decent money in amps, dacs, speakers, and headphones. I've got over $1000 sunk in between those 4 things. Feel like I got my money's worth on it all. I got that 'new swag' rush and never has there been a point later where I felt like I shouldn't have bought it. And my stuff is considered entry level. But the weird thing about that is... audiophiles themselves talk all of the time about the sharp point of diminishing returns. So on some level they do know that they're spending way more than they need to.

Amps are super interesting to me... I like learning about all of the different topographies.

It's just a pain shopping for this stuff because there are some real differences in some of the main components of a system, but it's become enshrouded in so much woo it's like 'why bother?' Cables have pretty much always been BS. I feel like pretty much any decently-made cable, even on the analog side, is gonna be more than good enough. It's never gonna be the weak point in your chain, unless it has a bad connection or something. There's no way there's ever gonna be $1000 of materials and engineering in these boutique cables. And even if there is, I still don't see why I want that... not any more than I want a $1000 space-age pair of scissors with state-of-the-art design and materials.

All that said, I don't dig too hard on people who go in on that stuff, as long as it's not cutting into life responsibilities. They're really just their own breed of nerd. They want to be accepted like anybody else, so they try to come up with justifications, but really they just want it. For many, that's probably all there is on a subconscious level. And sometimes that's a good enough reason to have it, you know? If they're satisfied, it kind of its what it is. You're not gonna change it and that aside, does it really matter? I think a lot of people simply come up with all of these reasons because they don't want people to think that what they like is totally weird and out there all of the time. People here do that too  Clearly it's more about the gear than the sound at a certain point... so I tend to think of them as collectors. Gear is fun. I totally get that. I've gone through phases of buying and selling off used audio gear, participating in swaps and such. It was pretty fun and it wasn't a huge net financial loss.

It did, however really open my eyes to what does and doesn't matter with audio, and is the reason why I will probably never shell-out exorbitant amounts of cash on super-high-end audio gear. I've been living with the same setup for years... just a basic 4490 DAC (Modi 2 Uber,) a Vali 2 for my headphones, my HD600's and DT-990 Pro's, and JBL LSR305's. Each one of these are considered on the low-end by audiophiles, but personally, having tried the really high-end stuff, I can't bring myself to upgrade. I love music and really enjoy it on this setup.

I will say, some of the people who have it real bad, I sort of question the mental well-being of. They don't seem all there - and it kind of shows in how they express themselves, and in their behavior OUTSIDE of things audio-related. There are patterns. I don't mean it in a derogatory way, either. It's more just that if a friend or family member were acting like they do, I would be concerned. I think there might actually be something going on with some of them that is affecting their decision-making. It can be a predatory industry for those types.


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

I have to admit; if someone is SO obsessed with a viewpoint, that they will not listen to reason, I will be a predator of their wallet.



Am I Evil? Yes I am.


----------



## phill (Nov 4, 2019)

Being a bit of an audiophile I can respect the more expensive cables to some degree but network cables costing that much??  Jesus no!!  Interconnects for my hi-fi here are around a £100 a cable, speaker cables, £20 a metre simply because my setup is bi-amp'd and bi-wired.. 
I've had it going on 18 years and never looked back  Bought it when I was about 21, never looked back and it's still going as strong as ever.. No regrets spending the kind of cash I did however, when I do upgrade it when I move, I do look forward to going and having a bit of a spend on some new gear.. Looking very much forward to that 

They always say, spend about 10% on your cables from the total cost of the system   Seems to work fairly well to be honest


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

If you're buying anything other than 12awg copper zipcord for speaker wires, you're ripping yourself off.

If you're using anything other than standard coax for RCA's, or anything special for digital, same thing.

I do believe I can hear better sound from my all analog sound paths, but it's probably bias; given the inherent problems with Vinyl and non reel to reel tape, it's probably bias.


----------



## thesmokingman (Nov 4, 2019)

Grog6 said:


> I have to admit; if someone is SO obsessed with a viewpoint, that they will not listen to reason, I will be a predator of their wallet.
> 
> 
> 
> Am I Evil? Yes I am.



He came into Tower Records back in the day. Dude was short as hell! But he still rocks... MOTHER!


----------



## oobymach (Nov 4, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> It did, however really open my eyes to what does and doesn't matter with audio, and is the reason why I will probably never shell-out exorbitant amounts of cash on super-high-end audio gear. I've been living with the same setup for years... just a basic 4490 DAC (Modi 2 Uber,) a Vali 2 for my headphones, my HD600's and DT-990 Pro's, and JBL LSR305's. Each one of these are considered on the low-end by audiophiles, but personally, having tried the really high-end stuff, I can't bring myself to upgrade. I love music and really enjoy it on this setup.


The worst part is over time your hearing degrades, mine is still pretty good so I also appreciate uncompressed music (digital rips straight from cd) and have a pretty good audio setup for my computer. Right now I'm using creative t20's since they produce really good sound with decent bass response in a tiny footprint and an ifi nano idsd le which is on the low end of the audiophile spectrum but uses burr brown chipset and can play pcm, dsd and dxd audio @ 32bit 384khz, for a home pc it's slightly overkill which is what I wanted. Using sennheiser hd6mix cans but have an old pair of HD 280 pros that still work well. Also have a dual subwoofer setup (2 10" run from one powered unit) and an old kenwood vr-305  and a 20 band pyramid equalizer with some decent 3 way speakers but I rarely use it. Way too loud.


----------



## silkstone (Nov 4, 2019)

oobymach said:


> The worst part is over time your hearing degrades, mine is still pretty good so I also appreciate uncompressed music (digital rips straight from cd) and have a pretty good audio setup for my computer. Right now I'm using creative t20's since they produce really good sound with decent bass response in a tiny footprint and an ifi nano idsd le which is on the low end of the audiophile spectrum but uses burr brown chipset and can play pcm, dsd and dxd audio @ 32bit 384khz, for a home pc it's slightly overkill which is what I wanted. Using sennheiser hd6mix cans but have an old pair of HD 280 pros that still work well. Also have a dual subwoofer setup (2 10" run from one powered unit) and an old kenwood vr-305  and a 20 band pyramid equalizer with some decent 3 way speakers but I rarely use it. Way too loud.



Then the next step is to get better cables


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

I love MP3's, and they work for 99% of what I listen to.

BUT, listen to Rush, or Mozart, on flac or vinyl, and compare it to mp3.

You will not want to listen to mp3 again.

MP3 is great for metal, and a bunch of music. But it loses a LOT.

The airy parts of Mozart are just gone, and all the incredible fills in Rush's music are gone as well.

Your music collection is suffering as well, I'd bet; test, and listen to different digital and audio formats, you'll be surprised.
FLAC is the best digital, but vinyl is better, and I can't explain it, really.

I have a RtR of Led Zep II, in Quad, at 30 IPS. I have nothing else in my collection that beats that, regardless of format.

EDIT: that said, I'm out to listen to LZII, and piss off my neighbors, lol.


----------



## oobymach (Nov 4, 2019)

Can't agree more about mp3's. There's a site called hdtracks, they have plenty of high quality audio for those who are keen on such things, but it's not free.


----------



## johnspack (Nov 4, 2019)

Hdtracks is the best  for hq flacs,  those ripped from lps.  Worth every penny.  Mp3s suck.  Ripped cd tracks are bad enough in flac format,  nevermind mp3.  And even though I'm a hardcore audiophile,  I don't buy the 1k ethernet cable.  That's just too far fetched.  Nor the monster cables that were so popular for awhile.  Just good quality phones,  dac,  and audio source will do it.....


----------



## Athlonite (Nov 4, 2019)

Nice to see the old adage that a Fool and their money are soon parted


----------



## delshay (Nov 4, 2019)

phill said:


> Being a bit of an audiophile I can respect the more expensive cables to some degree but network cables costing that much??  Jesus no!!  Interconnects for my hi-fi here are around a £100 a cable, speaker cables, £20 a metre simply because my setup is bi-amp'd and bi-wired..
> I've had it going on 18 years and never looked back  Bought it when I was about 21, never looked back and it's still going as strong as ever.. No regrets spending the kind of cash I did however, when I do upgrade it when I move, I do look forward to going and having a bit of a spend on some new gear.. Looking very much forward to that
> 
> They always say, spend about 10% on your cables from the total cost of the system   Seems to work fairly well to be honest



I'm with you on this one, ie I have a reasonable expensive audio equipment. I do own expensive cables which I bought many years ago. All of my cables are from Audioquest, including HDMI & USB. There is a clear cut difference in sound between copper & silver cable.


----------



## phill (Nov 4, 2019)

delshay said:


> I'm with you on this one, ie I have a reasonable expensive audio equipment. I do own expensive cables which I bought many years ago. All of my cables are from Audioquest, including HDMI & USB. There is a clear cut difference in sound between copper & silver cable.



My speaker cables are silver and they have been brilliant.  There's definitely differences between bottom priced and shall we say, middle of the road priced interconnects.  If you're going to spend the cash for the audio hardware, you may as well back it up with something half decent


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

I wish I was selling you audio gear.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Grab a cat 7


----------



## delshay (Nov 4, 2019)

phill said:


> My speaker cables are silver and they have been brilliant.  There's definitely differences between bottom priced and shall we say, middle of the road priced interconnects.  If you're going to spend the cash for the audio hardware, you may as well back it up with something half decent



My most expensive cable is Audioquest HDMI Diamond 1m, which cost more than the lan cable in this thread. 

& my USB cable is also from the Audioquest Diamond range.


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

You should see the frequency response of an ethernet cable; it's nowhere near flat.

It's made to preserve edges, and not much else, lol.

That's the one cable I wouldn't use for audio.

I used to have a plot of a cat6 cable and a coax cable overlaid on each other on my office wall, just to remind me.

Cat6 has variable twists and all, it's interesting.

I'm sure cat7 is similar.


----------



## candle_86 (Nov 4, 2019)

delshay said:


> My most expensive cable is Audioquest HDMI Diamond 1m, which cost more than the lan cable in this thread.
> 
> & my USB cable is also from the Audioquest Diamond range.




Why HDMI is digital, my 2 dollar Amazon basic hdmi will do just as good at transmitting digital audio as your cable.


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

candle_86 said:


> Why HDMI is digital, my 2 dollar Amazon basic hdmi will do just as good at transmitting digital audio as your cable.



The electrons are happier with the more expensive cable. 
Lol.

This is an Eye Diagram. It shows the transition quality from 1 to 0 and vice versa:







The size of the opening is a measure of signal quality vs frequency; as you go up in frequency, the eye gets smaller.
The signal on the left is optimal, and will sound exactly the same as the center pic, which is degraded.
There will be NO audible difference, as long as the "Eye" is open.
The rightmost signal is a badly degraded signal, which will not work at all. The 1 and 0 states cannot be determined.
Digital works or doesn't work, there is no "kinda works" point.

Note the scale on those images. PicoSeconds.
That's the scale at which this becomes important.










						The most expensive HDMI cable in existance | Poc Network // Tech
					

Quite possibly the most expensive HDMI cable in existence, there is a 20 meter (just over 65.5 ft) cable by WireWorld being offered on Amazon that will run you a heart stopping $10,500. That's ri




					www.pocnetwork.net
				












						Are expensive HDMI cables worth buying? We asked an expert | Digital Trends
					

Should you consider buying an expensive HDMI cable? We asked an HDMI expert about the difference between cheap and expensive cables to find out if they're worth it.




					www.digitaltrends.com
				












						Get a Refund for Your Overpriced Monster HDMI Cables
					

Shoppers who were convinced to overpay for HDMI cables can get some cash from this class action lawsuit settlement.




					www.techlicious.com
				





Like I said above, the expensive Monster Brand cable was a $4 Samtec cable.
My rep told me that after I mentioned seeing the logo, he passed that up the chain, and they charged them to remove the logo, lol.
($2k mold making fee, iirc)

The newer 8k video standard is using a 12gbps link(x4 links); I can't find the frequency, but those cables will be expensive; running 12GHz over a piece of twisted pair is difficult, and not easily doable.


----------



## delshay (Nov 4, 2019)

Grog6

Their are counterfeit cables out there, this is why I always go to recommended dealers.

It' on Audioquest website & probably others https://www.audioquest.com/beware-of-counterfeits


----------



## Sasqui (Nov 4, 2019)

Does this cable do the laundry and give great head?


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 4, 2019)

I usually buy cables from Digikey, Mouser, or one of the other vendors I can get a datasheet from.

I think I paid ~$15 for the HDMI 2.0 cables I bought last time.


----------



## candle_86 (Nov 4, 2019)

Meh Amazon basic just works


----------



## phill (Nov 4, 2019)

Grog6 said:


> I wish I was selling you audio gear.



I'd have to have money to buy new audio equipment lol  I have none lol  

I notice a difference when I'm buying it, so if it's a difference I like or want, then I buy it.  There's no point in buying something if it's not doing what you want.  

Some people might say they can't hear it, some people say that they can.  Does it really matter either way??  They aren't forcing you to buy anything and vise a versa..  Some buy cheaper components, others middle of the road and others high end.  Not everyone has the same want, will or pocket to afford things so their tastes and buying habits will change and be different.  Oh, fyi, Monster cables I wouldn't even touch if they paid me too.  They are definitely not anything of any decent quality at all, reviews are there to give an indication and an opinion...  It's down to the person who reads it to see if it's actually of worth to them 

A while ago there was a program on TV I remember my Dad telling me about, said something about the best hi-fi setup ever, I think it was literally a source, amp and set of speakers, it was a £100k..  Who's to say that's right or wrong?  If I had a £100k and wanted a hi-fi it's something I could go and get.  As it stands, I couldn't buy a 100 penny sweets (probably gone up to 2 or 3p a sweet now, inflation) but you get my point  

We are all different and I for one am thankful of it..  The only downside is that the internet can be a great place or it can be a stupid place...  I'll leave that there and move on


----------



## Mussels (Nov 5, 2019)

Analogue audio, we all agree better cables can help (the higher end the equipment, the more worth it)

But digital is digital, and this just offends me.


----------



## delshay (Nov 5, 2019)

Grog6 said:


> The electrons are happier with the more expensive cable.
> Lol.
> 
> This is an Eye Diagram. It shows the transition quality from 1 to 0 and vice versa:
> ...



The shape of the eye also changes with length. This is where quality of the conductor & insulator makes it's mark. Every wondered why some digital cables fail to work beyond a certain length or suffer from drop-out. There are a number of dodge digital cables out there. You take it home & it don't work.
Some users will think their equipment is faulty, but it's not.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 5, 2019)

phill said:


> Some people might say they can't hear it, some people say that they can. Does it really matter either way??



If, in like the case of digital cables, the claims can be shown scientifically to be complete bunk, then yes it does.  It is defrauding consumers and frankly in some jurisdictions even illegal (should be everywhere imo).



delshay said:


> There are a number of cables out there that fail to work at a given length.



Most cable specs specify a standard length at which they must work.  For most, it is pretty crazy long, and longer range true shielded standards exist (like cat6a) if you need them.

Thus, what you are arguing is nearly a nonfactor for people today not buying out of some backwater market stall...


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 5, 2019)

delshay said:


> The shape of the eye also changes with length. This is where quality of the conductor & insulator makes it's mark. Every wondered why some digital cables fail to work beyond a certain length or suffer from drop-out. There are a number of dodge digital cables out there. You take it home & it don't work.
> Some users will think their equipment is faulty, but it's not.



Yeah it's called attenuation


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 5, 2019)

Expecting an 8k HDMI cable to work at 15m is kinda crazy; it's 48gbps, across 4 channels.

I'm amazed that works at all, lol.

I work on amps for people; the only amp I've ever been impressed with was a Macintosh tube amp from the 60's.
It weighed at least 80lbs, from the three huge transformers.
Similar to this, but older:








						McIntosh MC2152 70th Anniversary Vacuum Tube Amplifier
					

The MC2152 70th Anniversary Vacuum Tube Amplifier is a 150 Watt per channel stereo amplifier and features a striking new design to honor our seven decades of handcrafting some of the best home audio equipment the world has ever heard.




					www.mcintoshlabs.com
				




A close second is the pioneer amp I have; 120W, 0.001% distortion, 20-20kHz.

One of the worst I've seen was a Bang & Olufson amp from the 80's; it was supposedly a $10k amp, and it was a noisy 100W peak chip based amp.


----------



## Jetster (Nov 5, 2019)

Not the first time I've seen audio equipment go for crazy money. They spend insane money for everything. Snake oil or some technical ground loop interference prevention, I'm sure someone paid  the price and bought these.


----------



## phill (Nov 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> If, in like the case of digital cables, the claims can be shown scientifically to be complete bunk, then yes it does.  It is defrauding consumers and frankly in some jurisdictions even illegal (should be everywhere imo).



Well that another matter altogether if it's shown to be bunk, but as it's been stated before, fools will be parted with money... 

I'm sure there might be some merit in spending a few quid more than bargain basement on some digital cables, some I've had in the past have been terrible for the build quality....  But I'd have to be hawk eyed to see if something costing £100's or more so £1000's would even make that much of a difference...  I don't mind spending a bit of cables but I'm pretty sure for most of us that there's a limit for being able to notice a difference...?


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 5, 2019)

I used to try to argue; I did double blind tests, with various switching methods, all the way to disconnecting and reconnecting cable between amps.

No one could ever pick out speaker wires, with any speaker/amp combo, switching method, or anything else.

One of the sets of cables I used was a 10' long 20awg solid core zip cord; no one could tell that from the 12awg silver litz wire.

I had people offer to fight when I showed them that that was what they were listening to, lol. (I'm not small, lol)

It's just easier to tell them "I know a guy..." and take their money.

I made a ton of custom Teflon/Silver speaker wires, and "Burned them in" to spec for "Discerning customers."
I bought the wire surplus at a Lab sale, and twisted it with a cordless, and put a overall jacket on it.

Bought for $0.50 a pound, sold for $10+ per foot, lol.
I ruined a set of shocks driving home with a ton of teflon wire in my 83 Firebird, lol.

The Silver IEC power cables were a great moneymaker; I had people tell me they got a better overclock using those on their computers.
This was in the 486DX4/100 days... 

I miss that job sometimes, lol.


----------



## silkstone (Nov 5, 2019)

phill said:


> Well that another matter altogether if it's shown to be bunk, but as it's been stated before, fools will be parted with money...
> 
> I'm sure there might be some merit in spending a few quid more than bargain basement on some digital cables, some I've had in the past have been terrible for the build quality....  But I'd have to be hawk eyed to see if something costing £100's or more so £1000's would even make that much of a difference...  I don't mind spending a bit of cables but I'm pretty sure for most of us that there's a limit for being able to notice a difference...?



Digital is digital . . . it's all the same, from a $1 cable to a $1000 cable . . . It either works or it doesn't.


----------



## phill (Nov 5, 2019)

What was the audio equipment that you where testing with when you did the blind tests?   I'm intrigued   I bought my audio around 2001..  Still using the same kit and loving it   I just wish I had a clue as to what direction to take now for my upgrade path lol


----------



## Grog6 (Nov 5, 2019)

I have an HP signal generator, and an HP distortion analyzer; bother are from the 60's, maybe 70's.
I only really use them for repair work, to verify things.
I have Oscilloscopes and all for gross performance/repair work.

Signal generator is similar to this:


			Hewlett-Packard 209A 4Hz-2MHz Audio Oscillator
		


This is my Distortion analyzer:


			https://www.testequipmentdepot.com/usedequipment/hewlettpackard/distortionanalyzers/339a.htm
		


I have customer equipment spread out over my bench, so no pix of my stuff for now.

Ebay is the best place for buying test equipment; I went thru a spree last year, and bought power supplies I only dreamed about.
Look for ones that are "AS is", and go over the pix carefully; I got a 50V 50A HP power supply for $50 because the guy didn't know how to hook it up.
I bought 2x 50V5A power supplies of the same family for $20 each, same reason.
When shipping costs more than the supply, that's a win. 


For double blind tests, you don't need equipment; you need marks, I mean, Customers, with their golden ears.

Agree on a signal source; allow them to bring their favorite. Speakers too.

Or use a nice turntable, or high-speed Reel to reel.
30ips tape has NO hiss to speak of.

You just need someone besides you to connect everything, while you get the mark...Customers input on what they're hearing. 

If you know it's the 20AWG phone cord, you won't sell it as well, so you don't need to know what's actually hooked up.

I've used gold contact relay switchers, various combos of A-B switches; someone always complains.

SO, have someone else do cable connections, behind a wall, while you conduct the scam, I mean, sales pitch.

90% of marketing is letting the Customer sell himself.

Now I originally did these tests to prove that people's ears suck, but after I realized that Avarice wasn't as bad as I thought, especially for rich victims, I used it to sell cables.

"You can obviously hear the added clarity of the 12AWG solid silver wire over the 12 AWG zip cord, because..."
"This is a cable that's fresh, and this is a cable that's been properly burned in; you can clearly hear the harsh overtones..."

I'm glad the statute of limitations is only 7 years, because there's a bunch of silver plated copper/teflon cable out there, lol.


----------



## phill (Nov 5, 2019)

So you use equipment rather than your own ears or have you tried that as well?    Just interested


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 5, 2019)

Back to the tube/solid state debate: They're for different things. Solid state will give you accuracy, if that's what you need. Tubes will give you a warm, pleasing sound IF you like that sound. It just depends on what you need it for. If you want to hear exactly what the producer laid down, use a solid state, because a tube will absolutely alter the sound. If you like the warm sound of tubes (and let's be clear here, different tubes absolutely sound different from each other) when listening to music, then use tubes. Neither is "better" anymore than a corvette is "better" than a Ford F-350. They're used for different things. Tubes will fail at accuracy, and some people prefer the sound of tubes to the "harsh" accuracy of solid state. Pick your own poison. 

But back to the OP: If it's on the back side of your DAC, it doesn't matter one bit (except for the source file, of course). If you bought this ethernet cable, you're a fool and you deserve to have your money taken from you by charlatans.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 5, 2019)

phill said:


> Well that another matter altogether if it's shown to be bunk, but as it's been stated before, fools will be parted with money...
> 
> I'm sure there might be some merit in spending a few quid more than bargain basement on some digital cables, some I've had in the past have been terrible for the build quality....  But I'd have to be hawk eyed to see if something costing £100's or more so £1000's would even make that much of a difference...  I don't mind spending a bit of cables but I'm pretty sure for most of us that there's a limit for being able to notice a difference...?



The point is with digital, minus maybe transmission length, there isn't a difference.

The thing either works at a given length/standard, or it doesn't.  There is no way to "improve the end result" if the signal is completing.



Grog6 said:


> I used to try to argue; I did double blind tests, with various switching methods, all the way to disconnecting and reconnecting cable between amps.
> 
> No one could ever pick out speaker wires, with any speaker/amp combo, switching method, or anything else.
> 
> ...



How in the world did you get scrap silver that cheap?



Grog6 said:


> because there's a bunch of silver plated copper/teflon cable out there, lol.



Oh.


----------

