# DDR4 vs. DDR5 on Intel Core i9-12900K Alder Lake



## W1zzard (Nov 9, 2021)

The Intel Alder Lake platform has support for both DDR5 and DDR4 memory. We ran 38 application benchmarks and 10 games at multiple DDR4 configurations to learn what performance to expect when using DDR4 vs. DDR5 on 12th Gen, and whether there's a point at which DDR4 performance can beat the much more expensive DDR5.

*Show full review*


----------



## Voodoo Rufus (Nov 9, 2021)

Good work. Perhaps the next logical step would be to compare ram types and speeds on iGPU gaming.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 9, 2021)

Voodoo Rufus said:


> Perhaps the next logical step would be to compare ram types and speeds on iGPU gaming.


Indeed, that is an interesting test. Mostly for science, because the IGP is just too slow for serious gaming


----------



## Selaya (Nov 9, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> Indeed, that is an interesting test. Mostly for science, because the IGP is just too slow for serious gaming


Could be legitimately useful w/ RDNA2 IGPs, it's already borderline playable w/ the current anemic Vega ones like, if you're willing to use low(est) settings the Cezanne IGPs are certainly good enough for that, unlike team blue's 750/770s ...


----------



## crow1001 (Nov 9, 2021)

I see the igpu has hdmi 2.1 in its specs, will it output 120hz 4k via hdmi, just for desktop use?


----------



## Xuper (Nov 9, 2021)

Can you have another bench 3090 vs 6900XT for 12900K/11900K/5950X ?


----------



## xorbe (Nov 9, 2021)

DDR4 3200 CL14 has been my go-to for a long while.


----------



## First Strike (Nov 9, 2021)

Just an idea. You can test the iGPU performance under ddr4/ddr5. There has been some rumors that iGPU performs worse under gear 2 ddr5 due to iGPU memory frequency being locked at 4/3 IMC frequency. @W1zzard


----------



## Airisom (Nov 9, 2021)

So, with the numbers we see here, your 3600+ cl14 sticks should further improve performance.


----------



## QUANTUMPHYSICS (Nov 9, 2021)

I'll wait a few years and upgrade to the fastest new DDR5, DDR5 motherboard and new 4000 series GPU.


----------



## blu3dragon (Nov 9, 2021)

Darn.  Now I want to see DDR5-4400.  That stock speed might be slower than the equally stock DDR4-3200!

Also, nice work.  I think this is the best comparison of memory performance I have seen so far.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 9, 2021)

blu3dragon said:


> Now I want to see DDR5-4400


DDR5 memory scaling article is coming next


----------



## theGryphon (Nov 9, 2021)

blu3dragon said:


> Darn.  Now I want to see DDR5-4400.  That stock speed might be slower than the equally stock DDR4-3200!
> 
> Also, nice work.  I think this is the best comparison of memory performance I have seen so far.



Yeah, I feel like a slower, more affordable DDR5 config is missing in this test. 
Still, it's good to know that current top DDR5 is not giving huge performance benefits. No need to have second thoughts unless it's a benching rig.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Nov 9, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> Indeed, that is an interesting test. Mostly for science, because the IGP is just too slow for serious gaming


Intel or in general?


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Nov 9, 2021)

jmcslob said:


> Intel or in general?


Both, really. Outside of casual games the ryzen iGPU works if you are willing to run games at the lowest settings possible at 720p. they work great for previosu generation games, but more recent titles are simply too demanding, and will result in framerates too low for DDR5 to really make much difference. That's already been shown with DDR4 scaling benchmarks dont by both TPu and other sites, above 3600 there really is no scaling right now. DDR5's added latency will torpedo any benefits that could be granted right now, until iGPUs grow past where they were in 2017.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Nov 9, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Both, really. Outside of casual games the ryzen iGPU works if you are willing to run games at the lowest settings possible at 720p. they work great for previosu generation games, but more recent titles are simply too demanding, and will result in framerates too low for DDR5 to really make much difference. That's already been shown with DDR4 scaling benchmarks dont by both TPu and other sites, above 3600 there really is no scaling right now. DDR5's added latency will torpedo any benefits that could be granted right now, until iGPUs grow past where they were in 2017.


Interesting.
I would have expected AMD's current gen apu would do 1600x900 with respectable fps.

Superb review BTW. 
Bet that was fun


----------



## Axaion (Nov 9, 2021)

Something i havent seen anyone test yet, is how it does vs high end ddr4, like 2x16 4000 cl14, for example, or 4x8 4000 cl14.


----------



## Garrus (Nov 9, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Both, really. Outside of casual games the ryzen iGPU works if you are willing to run games at the lowest settings possible at 720p. they work great for previosu generation games, but more recent titles are simply too demanding, and will result in framerates too low for DDR5 to really make much difference. That's already been shown with DDR4 scaling benchmarks dont by both TPu and other sites, above 3600 there really is no scaling right now. DDR5's added latency will torpedo any benefits that could be granted right now, until iGPUs grow past where they were in 2017.


Intel iGPU is about half the speed of AMD's right now. My i7-12700k iGPU is very slow. My Ryzen 5700G iGPU was fine to play many older games, like Mass Effect, well. Apple's iGPU is of course 4x-8x Intel, which is frustrating.

Looking forward to Raptor Lake fixing iGPU. I can't believe Intel didn't include a good iGPU with Alder Lake. With the introduction of DDR5 it would have been perfect timing. I wonder if laptop versions will use DDR5 instead.



jmcslob said:


> Interesting.
> I would have expected AMD's current gen apu would do 1600x900 with respectable fps.
> 
> Superb review BTW.
> Bet that was fun


It does. AMD gets double the frame rate in many games with iGPU.


----------



## mechtech (Nov 9, 2021)

blu3dragon said:


> Darn.  Now I want to see DDR5-4400.  That stock speed might be slower than the equally stock DDR4-3200!
> 
> Also, nice work.  I think this is the best comparison of memory performance I have seen so far.


Yes, and run of the mill 4800 at run of the mill timings.  Be interesting to do a dual-channel kit with single rank vs dual rank DDR5.









						Computer Memory | DDR5 DRAM Upgrades
					

Crucial DDR5 desktop memory powers a new era of computing innovation. Compatible DDR5 RAM.




					www.crucial.com
				




And so far it looks to be about double the price of ddr4 for 32GB

ninja edit - did an SR just appear in the mem bar or am I just blind?  @W1zzard would it be possible to add DR for dual-ranked kits in the mem graph bars?  please/thanks


----------



## blu3dragon (Nov 9, 2021)

Axaion said:


> Something i havent seen anyone test yet, is how it does vs high end ddr4, like 2x16 4000 cl14, for example, or 4x8 4000 cl14.


Given the need to run gear2 at anything over 3600, the sweet spot might be 3600 with timings as low as you can get them.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Nov 10, 2021)

Until we get affordable DDR5 7200 CL32 we won't see big differences other than in a few cases where even DDR5 4800CL40 makes a difference. Let's see what happens this time next year when we hopefully have Zen4 and Raptor Lake.


----------



## 15th Warlock (Nov 10, 2021)

Thank you so much for this article, love how nuanced and thorough it was, it's much appreciated.


----------



## AKBrian (Nov 10, 2021)

Good rundown, but I need to ask about that DDR4-3600 result in the Cinebench test. Something else is going on, as there's no valid reason for it to be coming in so far behind the pack. Did it hit a temp/power limit partway through testing?


----------



## lemonadesoda (Nov 10, 2021)

Conclusion 1: if you are upgrading your system, recycle your DDR4. You’ll save a lot of money and wont “notice”any performance loss

Conclusion 2: If you are buying a new system, buy DDR4 and with the money saved, get a better processor or GPU.

Anyone see it differently?


----------



## ir_cow (Nov 10, 2021)

lemonadesoda said:


> Conclusion 2: If you are buying a new system, buy DDR4 and with the money saved, get a better processor or GPU.
> 
> Anyone see it differently?


DDR4 motherboards are not as "feature rich". Expect less of a "premium feel". As for example. Why does the ASUS TUF has 2 SATA ports when 4x is part of the chipset? Save one penny...


----------



## beautyless (Nov 10, 2021)

I'm appreciate  your excellent job as always.


----------



## Why_Me (Nov 10, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> DDR4 motherboards are not as "feature rich". Expect less of a "premium feel". As for example. Why does the ASUS TUF has 2 SATA ports when 4x is part of the chipset? Save one penny...


4 x SATA

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-GAMING-Z690-PLUS-WIFI-D4/ 

6 x SATA






						MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4
					

Powered by Intel 12th Gen Core processors, the MSI MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4 is hardened with performance essential specifications to outlast enemies. Tuned for better performance by Core boost, Memory Boost, Premium Thermal Solution, M.2 Shield Frozr,




					www.msi.com
				




6 x SATA









						Z690 AERO G DDR4 (rev. 1.x) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global
					

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...




					www.gigabyte.com
				




8 x SATA









						ASRock Z690 Steel Legend
					

Supports 13th Gen & 12th Gen Intel Core™ Processors (LGA1700); 13 Phase Dr.MOS Power Design; Supports DDR4 5000MHz (OC); 1 PCIe 5.0 x16, 1 PCIe 4.0 x16, 1 PCIe 3.0 x16, 2 PCIe 3.0 x1, 1 M.2 Key-E for WiFi; Graphics Output Options: HDMI, DisplayPort; Realtek ALC897 7.1 CH HD Audio Codec, Nahimic...




					www.asrock.com


----------



## 15th Warlock (Nov 10, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> DDR4 motherboards are not as "feature rich". Expect less of a "premium feel". As for example. Why does the ASUS TUF has 2 SATA ports when 4x is part of the chipset? Save one penny...


The Asus Z690 Strix-F and the Strix-A D4 are the same exact board, down to the power delivery and ports, except the latter supports DDR4 and is $50 less expensive.


----------



## ir_cow (Nov 10, 2021)

Why_Me said:


> 4 x SATA
> 
> https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-GAMING-Z690-PLUS-WIFI-D4/


Sneaky sneaky lol. I had the board in front of me for a few days. Didn't even see the ones next to the GPU. I think I need to stop staring at so many boards at once.


----------



## gerardfraser (Nov 10, 2021)

Awesome review and a bunch of mind numbing work.No surprises for me and will be trying DDR4 DR 4000Mhz Gear 1 on 12900k and maybe up to 4400Mhz on my MSI board


----------



## ir_cow (Nov 10, 2021)

gerardfraser said:


> Awesome review and a bunch of mind numbing work.No surprises for me and will be trying DDR4 DR 4000Mhz Gear 1 on 12900k and maybe up to 4400Mhz on my MSI board


People are trying Gear 1 for DDR4-4000. I am able to achieve 4200 1:1 single rank, but only 3200 Dual Rank. I think the most chips will do 3600 and thats it.


----------



## gerardfraser (Nov 10, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> People are trying Gear 1 for DDR4-4000. I am able to achieve 4200 1:1 single rank, but only 3200 Dual Rank. I think the most chips will do 3600 and thats it.


I bought the cheapest MSI motherboard and I tend to have good luck on these MSI boards with overclocking and Ram over any Asus motherboard I have.
I am just going to give it a shot,I only PC game at 4K so actual results will never make a real world diference,just fun trying stuff.


----------



## chrcoluk (Nov 10, 2021)

Interesting data.

Seems my 3200CL14 configuration is a good spot in DDR4 land the 4000+ DDR4 didnt fair too well, with 3200 and 3600 trading blows depending on the workload.  Although I think 3200 wins out as on some of the workloads the 3600 loses badly when it loses.

The DDR5 even with its reported worse latency seems to hold out in both latency and bandwidth loads, so is in a good place on most workloads.

Ultimately my original gut feeling I think is correct, those upgrading, keep your DDR4 for now, then maybe at a later date when DDR5 prices come down and better kits come out, upgrade then.  Or even keep the DDR4 for as long as you use AL and only move to DDR5 on a newer gen chip.


----------



## Taraquin (Nov 10, 2021)

I usually love you benchmarks, but this time I'm confused. You test one of the best DDR5-kits vs 4 DDR4 kits that are average at best. What about testing against 3600cl15-15-15, 4000cl17-17-17 or 4400cl19-19-19?



chrcoluk said:


> Interesting data.
> 
> Seems my 3200CL14 configuration is a good spot in DDR4 land the 4000+ DDR didnt fair too well, with 3200 and 3600 trading blows depending on the workload.  Although I think 3200 wins out as on some of the workloads the 3600 loses badly when it loses.
> 
> ...


Single rank gear 2 vs dual rank gear 1 (3200 and 3600). No wonder the 'slower' ram beat the crap out of the 'faster'.


----------



## F-man4 (Nov 10, 2021)

crow1001 said:


> I see the igpu has hdmi 2.1 in its specs, will it output 120hz 4k via hdmi, just for desktop use?


4K 120 output is not tested.
But someone tested that UHD770 can H/W decode 8K 60 AV1 HDR via YouTube without any frame dropping.
(UHD750, RX6900XT, DG1-4G drop frames seriously on 8K 60 AV1 HDR playback)

Besides that, UHD770 gets a larger benefit from DDR5 than from DDR4. That’s because GPU needs more bandwidth than latency.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 10, 2021)

this is rather depressing how little ddr5 actually matters for gamers. ugh. lots of hype and no gains, as usual for the ram industry.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 10, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> We ran 38 application benchmarks and 10 games at multiple DDR4 configurations to learn what performance to expect when using DDR4 vs. DDR5 on 12th Gen, and whether there's a point at which DDR4 performance can beat the much more expensive DDR5.


Those results are not at surprising. They match what happens everytime the industry transitions from one RAM standard to the next. They also show the age old true that tighter timings wins the day.

While this would just be speculation, do you think that the historical 18months of time before GenA overtakes GenB in overall performance will hold true this generational transition?



lemonadesoda said:


> Conclusion 1: if you are upgrading your system, recycle your DDR4. You’ll save a lot of money and wont “notice”any performance loss
> 
> Conclusion 2: If you are buying a new system, buy DDR4 and with the money saved, get a better processor or GPU.
> 
> Anyone see it differently?


Spot on! 100% agree for the current time. In a year to 18 months the picture is likely to be different, but for now this is great advice.



ir_cow said:


> DDR4 motherboards are not as "feature rich". Expect less of a "premium feel".


That's just not correct.


ir_cow said:


> Why does the ASUS TUF has 2 SATA ports when 4x is part of the chipset? Save one penny...


And that's a minor, cherry-picked example..



lynx29 said:


> this is rather depressing how little ddr5 actually matters for gamers. ugh. lots of hype and no gains, as usual for the ram industry.


This is historically what has always happened with RAM standard switch-overs. It'll take time and refinement before DDR5 outperforms DDR4. As shown in the above testing, even DDR5-6000 was only fractionally ahead of any of the DDR4.

As a general rule, if you already have DDR4 and what to carry it forward, buy a DDR4 based board. If you want to bet on the future and have the money to spend, go with the best DDR5 you can get and upgrade later.


----------



## Jacek (Nov 10, 2021)

Then I would show the problem! I don't know if it's intentional to buy DDR5, but the delay is bad there too.
The minimum FPS is much worse than in the old system ....

z390





z690


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 10, 2021)

Axaion said:


> Something i havent seen anyone test yet, is how it does vs high end ddr4, like 2x16 4000 cl14, for example, or 4x8 4000 cl14.


happy to test it if you send me such a kit 



jmcslob said:


> Intel or in general?


in general.. i dont see anything convincing here .. and that's lowest possible settings








						AMD Ryzen 5 5600G Review - Affordable Zen 3 with Integrated Graphics
					

The Ryzen 5 5600G is AMD's most affordable entry to the Zen 3 architecture. Priced at $260, this six-core, twelve-thread processor achieves excellent performance that rivals older eight-core processors from both Intel and AMD. The integrated Vega graphics cores are much more powerful than even...




					www.techpowerup.com
				






mechtech said:


> and run of the mill 4800 at run of the mill timings


due to gear 2 i doubt that can impress



Taraquin said:


> What about testing against 3600cl15-15-15, 4000cl17-17-17 or 4400cl19-19-19?


4000 and 4400 won't matter due to gear 2. i'll see if i can get 3600 cl15 stable on my 2x 16 gb DR kit


----------



## chrcoluk (Nov 10, 2021)

If you could pull of 3000CL12 that would be interesting.  The latency on that beats out all common configurations I have seen on the net, I used it on my 8600k because the chip couldnt handle 3200mhz, and it removed stutters I had in final fantasy 13-2 when enemies spawned.  Bear in mind I tuned secondary and tertiary as well, as more gains than may seem obvious come from those, but thats a lot of work to tinker with that stuff, I did require high voltage on the ram to pull it off (1.45v). It also had more throughput than 3200CL14.

I no longer run it as I felt having my ram at 1.45v 24/7 and the chips I have, have no temp sensors was not something I was comfortable with so have dropped back to lower voltage.  Now back on XMP 3200CL14 for primary timings/clock and still tuned secondary timings.

I did take photos of bios timings I set, so may send you screenshots if you interested in testing it.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 10, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> 3000CL12


Not happening with any kit I have


----------



## Taraquin (Nov 10, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> happy to test it if you send me such a kit
> 
> 
> in general.. i dont see anything convincing here .. and that's lowest possible settings
> ...


I talked to some others and it seems several can do 4000-4133 in gear 1. What is the max speed in gear 1 your samples can do? 3800cl16-16-16 also might be a good option. And dual rank please as it boost perf vs SR a bit


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 10, 2021)

Taraquin said:


> I talked to some others and it seems several can do 4000-4133 in gear 1. What is the max speed in gear 1 your samples can do? 3800cl16-16-16 also might be a good option. And dual rank please as it boost perf vs SR a bit


Just checked for you, 3800 Gear 1 with DDR4 is the maximum, with +0.1V on System Agent


----------



## Zubasa (Nov 10, 2021)

Jacek said:


> Then I would show the problem! I don't know if it's intentional to buy DDR5, but the delay is bad there too.
> The minimum FPS is much worse than in the old system ....
> 
> z390
> ...


Check if your new system is running in Gear1, the board might be defaulting to Gear2 at higher mem clocks, which halfs the IMC clock and increase latency.
It can also be the board defaulting to really loose sub-timmings. Check those in the bios.


----------



## Arcdar (Nov 10, 2021)

Thanks again for a very detailed review with lots of background tests that show a "real" user picture compared to most marketing slabs. 

I was a bit surprised about the general "low" differences between DDR4 & DDR5, even though I didn't expect massive differences to begin with (I expected this to come with the next generation) but that the general difference is this small is interesting.

Will be interesting to watch the changes with more and more DDR5 releases, better timings and pro's to fiddle with the specs (just look at the Ryzen-Timings-Optimizer which was a lot of work from a gifted individual and changed the performance for many day-to-day-users massively). 

But again, kudos for the amount of work which was put into this review (as always, but still not taken for granted  )


----------



## Ferrum Master (Nov 10, 2021)

Arcdar said:


> Ryzen-Timings-Optimizer which was a lot of work from a gifted individual and changed the performance for many day-to-day-users massively



I would not dare to call him gifted after seeing his patreon for few months and his emails, I would rather say vice versa. That calculator doesn't really work for most people really. Better RAM in general accepts more foolish settings especially with those high voltages it asks to set and you won't notice something doesn't work, try some cheaper worser binned RAM and then the rock n roll starts rendering the tool useless.

I would nitcpick that RAM primaries are not the only ones deserving attention. TRFC as usually is overlooked again that massively affects latency then FAW being the next, it is very RAM ic dependent manufacturer states the number in their IC datasheet even. Others are simply a sum of primaries, but tertiaries are an unknown territory for anyone so far I guess.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 10, 2021)

Taraquin said:


> What about testing against 3600cl15-15-15


Best I can get is 3600 15-18-18-36. I don't think that's worth spending several hours of testing vs 3600 16-20-20-34


----------



## yeeeeman (Nov 10, 2021)

ok, so you've confirmed that Intel engineers know what they are doing and that they actually freaking designed and tested the memory controller to work the best with DDR5 memory. Hope that all the nonsense talkers on forums end up their lectures on how they know better than the Intel engineers that DDR5 is gonna be very bad because of "those latencies".


----------



## bug (Nov 10, 2021)

jmcslob said:


> Interesting.
> I would have expected AMD's current gen apu would do 1600x900 with respectable fps.
> 
> Superb review BTW.
> Bet that was fun


In Minesweeper or Solitaire it can do 4k HDR, no sweat 
What does "would do" mean to you? You need to be a bit more specific.


----------



## Wirko (Nov 10, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> DDR5 memory scaling article is coming next


When testing and comparing multiple memory configurations, could you calculate and list latencies in nanoseconds too, to make comparison easier? Like this:


----------



## saf81 (Nov 10, 2021)

It seemed like the DDR5 wasn't really given the best chance to reach its full potential with only half of the memory channels used? I think to make it an accurate test you would need to include quad channel DDR5 since each channel has a narrower bus than DDR4? 

An example of the difference this can make is comparing memory bandwidth numbers between Threadripper and Ryzen chips.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 10, 2021)

saf81 said:


> It seemed like the DDR5 wasn't really given the best chance to reach its full potential with only half of the memory channels used? I think to make it an accurate test you would need to include quad channel DDR5 since each channel has a narrower bus than DDR4?
> 
> An example of the difference this can make is comparing memory bandwidth numbers between Threadripper and Ryzen chips.


Each DDR5 module is dual-channel, two modules is quad-channel. This is the maximum config supported by the Alder Lake MC and what was tested


----------



## Taraquin (Nov 10, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> Best I can get is 3600 15-18-18-36. I don't think that's worth spending several hours of testing vs 3600 16-20-20-34


You don't have a B-die 2x16 or 2x8 laying around?


----------



## mechtech (Nov 10, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> due to gear 2 i doubt that can impress


Ya.   Kinda what I had in mind. 3200 ddr4 stock timings vs ddr5 4800 stock timings

jedec vs jedec
Stock vs stock

from your review though it seems timings and frequency are about linear.  With 3200 ddr4 at half the timings of 6000 ddr5 are pretty close in terms of performance 

main take away use ddr4 until price of ddr5 is within % of ddr4 vs performance increase.


----------



## saf81 (Nov 10, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> Each DDR5 module is dual-channel, two modules is quad-channel. This is the maximum config supported by the Alder Lake MC and what was tested


Thanks for the clarification. After re-reading the review it was clearly 2x40bit channels per DIMM.


----------



## Wirko (Nov 10, 2021)

saf81 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. After re-reading the review it was clearly 2x40bit channels per DIMM.


It's 32 bits, not 40, because there's still no ECC on the data bus in consumer RAM. There's just on-die ECC, which is mandatory for DDR5, we've discussed it several times.


----------



## Steevo (Nov 10, 2021)

Interesting to see RDR performance was the only one showing benefits of DDR5, perhaps the slow move to larger on die caches and more split lanes at higher speeds like GDDR has in the consoles is the reason.


----------



## Nihilus (Nov 10, 2021)

Remember last year when alot of people were saying that they wanted to wait until DDR5 as if that was going to be so amazing?


----------



## Jacek (Nov 10, 2021)

Zubasa said:


> Check if your new system is running in Gear1, the board might be defaulting to Gear2 at higher mem clocks, which halfs the IMC clock and increase latency.
> It can also be the board defaulting to really loose sub-timmings. Check those in the bios.


Hehe i check 3600cl14-15-15-15   Gear1 59ns!!!!!! i z390 system 39ns!!!  disgraceful ddr4 handling z690 chipset........


----------



## swirl09 (Nov 10, 2021)

Steevo said:


> Interesting to see RDR performance was the only one showing benefits of DDR5, perhaps the slow move to larger on die caches and more split lanes at higher speeds like GDDR has in the consoles is the reason.


Other reviews showed large gains in WD Legion. Im sure others will pop up, but overall and for the foreseeable future, a good DDR4 kit will serve you just fine. Or so I hope considering thats what Im going with  (_... waits for mounting kit...._)

I do appreciate more reviews and benchmarks to show how the DDR types stack up, and also Win10 v 11. But really, pitting brand new pricey DDR5 against the not just older but *budget *DDR4 options seems off. Sure, folks who have an old DDR4 kit lying around might want to see how it compares to DDR5, but realistically those who might put a new system together who want to know which to pick - how does this help them? Better DDR4 kits are widely available and quite cheap!


----------



## Zubasa (Nov 10, 2021)

saf81 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. After re-reading the review it was clearly 2x40bit channels per DIMM.


Easiest way to think of it is both DDR4 and DDR5 configurtations are 128-bit wide total. DDR5 has 2 sub-channels per dimm for better interleaving.


----------



## Fantik (Nov 10, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> DDR4 motherboards are not as "feature rich". Expect less of a "premium feel". As for example. Why does the ASUS TUF has 2 SATA ports when 4x is part of the chipset? Save one penny...


I'm with you. The problem is the only boards supporting ddr4 are not good. If they make the high end boards compatible with ddr4 that will be the best case. Now buy a 12900k and use a low end board


----------



## chrcoluk (Nov 10, 2021)

Fantik said:


> I'm with you. The problem is the only boards supporting ddr4 are not good. If they make the high end boards compatible with ddr4 that will be the best case. Now buy a 12900k and use a low end board


The steel legend looks the best board out the lot and it works with ddr4?  One of only a few z690 boards with decent sata connectivity.









						ASRock Z690 Steel Legend
					

Supports 13th Gen & 12th Gen Intel Core™ Processors (LGA1700); 13 Phase Dr.MOS Power Design; Supports DDR4 5000MHz (OC); 1 PCIe 5.0 x16, 1 PCIe 4.0 x16, 1 PCIe 3.0 x16, 2 PCIe 3.0 x1, 1 M.2 Key-E for WiFi; Graphics Output Options: HDMI, DisplayPort; Realtek ALC897 7.1 CH HD Audio Codec, Nahimic...




					www.asrock.com
				




Unless you mean boards for extreme o/c and over engineered VRMs?


----------



## Wirko (Nov 10, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> DDR4 motherboards are not as "feature rich". Expect less of a "premium feel". As for example. Why does the ASUS TUF has 2 SATA ports when 4x is part of the chipset? Save one penny...


Hey, it has two horizontal and two vertical SATA connectors, plus one M.2 PCIe+SATA (not sure if all five are usable at the same time). Looking at the geizhals.eu database, most DDR4 boards have six SATA connectors and one M.2 SATA too. Connectivity wise they're not bad (but indeed none of them has M.2 PCIe 5).


----------



## Why_Me (Nov 11, 2021)

Fantik said:


> I'm with you. The problem is the only boards supporting ddr4 are not good. If they make the high end boards compatible with ddr4 that will be the best case. Now buy a 12900k and use a low end board


First post on here and you already blew it.

https://rog.asus.com/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-z690-a-gaming-wifi-d4-model/









						Z690 AERO G DDR4 (rev. 1.x) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global
					

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...




					www.gigabyte.com


----------



## Mussels (Nov 11, 2021)

3200 C14 seems to make one hell of a showing, on either AMD or intel


----------



## fortiori (Nov 11, 2021)

W1zzard thank you for all the work you put into this--this comparison is something i've been looking forward to for quite some time.

TPU is the best tech site on the internet.


----------



## arni-gx (Nov 11, 2021)

However, there are many things to consider when choosing to take the DDR4 route. You'll need reasonably fast memory able to sustain Gear 1 mode and tight timings—we recommend something similar to our DDR4-3600 configuration. Intel memory controllers aren't very picky about dual-rank modules, at least while you stay in Gear 1. In our performance results, Dual-Rank DDR4 Gear 1 at DDR4-3200/3600 is able to stay ahead of their DDR4-4000/4400 single-rank Gear 2 counterparts. In conclusion, you could avoid paying the hefty DDR5 early-adopter tax if you're willing to live with a single-digit percentage performance hit in applications, and a negligible hit in gaming performance. On the other hand, if you want the absolute highest performance, DDR5 is what you want, but be ready to pay for it. I am happy to report that running DDR5 is trivial, at least on my G.SKILL Trident Z memory kit. Just enable XMP and you're done. Overclocking and tweaking was also trouble-free, and straightforward, which is an impressive feat for a technology that's as new as DDR5.

==== so, DDR 4 is the past and DDR5 is the future of pc gaming..... alright.... see u there, 1-2 years ..... when the price is right......


----------



## JD100 (Nov 11, 2021)

What were the RAM settings used for Zen 3 CPUs in this benchmark?


----------



## UnCertainty (Nov 11, 2021)

Axaion said:


> Something i havent seen anyone test yet, is how it does vs high end ddr4, like 2x16 4000 cl14, for example, or 4x8 4000 cl14.


I'm wondering the same. I have ddr4 4000 cl15 and I haven't spent any time oc'ing it.

The performance gain is so small for ddr5(~3-4% average) I would bet that ~ddr4-4400 cl14/15 would at least tie the ddr5.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 11, 2021)

JD100 said:


> What were the RAM settings used for Zen 3 CPUs in this benchmark?


Other test systems are the same as in our Core i9-12900K review.









						Intel Core i9-12900K Review - Fighting for the Performance Crown
					

The Intel Core i9-12900K is Intel's flagship processor for the Alder Lake architecture. In our testing, we saw fantastic gaming performance from this new processor. Not only low-threaded tests have improved, the 12900K can even beat AMD at highly threaded workloads.




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Shatun_Bear (Nov 13, 2021)

Oh damn we'll lose 0.8% performance going with DDR4!!! 

I feel sorry for all those people that buy memory kits faster than 3200.


----------



## Deleted member 215115 (Nov 13, 2021)

Shatun_Bear said:


> Oh damn we'll lose 0.8% performance going with DDR4!!!
> 
> I feel sorry for all those people that buy memory kits faster than 3200.


Ok, buddy. You go buy a 3200 kit. The rest of us will see double-digit extra fps just from tuned, faster memory. I guess we're all suckers and we're seeing things.

Who knew maximizing performance was this easy? All those idiots running DDR4-4800 CL14 in their 10900K builds. Just get a 3200 kit, dummies.


----------



## Shatun_Bear (Nov 13, 2021)

rares495 said:


> Ok, buddy. You go buy a 3200 kit. The rest of us will see double-digit extra fps just from tuned, faster memory. I guess we're all suckers and we're seeing things.
> 
> Who knew maximizing performance was this easy? All those idiots running DDR4-4800 CL14 in their 10900K builds. Just get a 3200 kit, dummies.



You can tell the difference between 140fps and 145fps? Or 50fps and 52fps @ 4K? You genius.

Yep, I'll stick to 3200 memory. And I do serious work with my PC in any case, I'll leave high refresh gaming to the man children with nothing better to do with their time


----------



## Mussels (Nov 14, 2021)

Shatun_Bear said:


> Oh damn we'll lose 0.8% performance going with DDR4!!!
> 
> I feel sorry for all those people that buy memory kits faster than 3200.


Ah, remember that its the timings that made the difference there - 3200 CL14 is basically not for sale in Au, period.

3200 C14/3600C16 seem to be ideal, beyond that the gains seem to be trivial.


----------



## Shatun_Bear (Nov 14, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Ah, remember that its the timings that made the difference there - 3200 CL14 is basically not for sale in Au, period.
> 
> 3200 C14/3600C16 seem to be ideal, beyond that the gains seem to be trivial.



I should have added 3200 'with decent timings'. But still, the differences are too small for me to concern myself with, but gaming is not my primary pursuit. As long as the timings are decent and I'm not putting 2400Mhz mem in my Ryzen set up, 3200 is the best for price - perf.


----------



## ToTTenTranz (Nov 15, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Ah, remember that its the timings that made the difference there - 3200 CL14 is basically not for sale in Au, period.
> 
> 3200 C14/3600C16 seem to be ideal, beyond that the gains seem to be trivial.



It also depends a bit on the monitor you have. It seems to me that these _perfect_ memory speeds/timings only make a real difference when the CPU is the bottleneck, and on a Zen2/3 this only happens at high framerates.
If your monitor caps at 60 or 75Hz then the additional investment gets little to no returns, but I guess for people with 120+Hz monitors it could make some measurable difference.


There's probably some variance on the L3 cache per CPU cores ratio too. More L3 for the same amount of cpu core clients means less trips to the system RAM.
This means the Ryzen 5600X with 32MB L3 for 6 cores and the 5900X with 64MB L3 for 12 cores should be less sensitive to RAM clocks/timings than the 5800X (8 cores / 32MB) and the 5950X (16 cores / 64MB).

By this logic, the upcoming Zen3 VCache models with up to 96MB L3 for 8 cores and 192MB for 16 cores might not care much for RAM speed, given how much they can do within the L3.


----------



## Fleurious (Nov 15, 2021)

The 3600 CL16 kit looks like the real winner from these tests.  May end up just going with a DDR4 board.


----------



## Speedyblupi (Nov 16, 2021)

What happened to the DDR4-3600 kit in Cinebench? RAM shouldn't make a difference to that as Cinebench usually runs in cache, but it scored much lower than all of the other memory configurations. Did something go wrong with the testing, or is there just something weird about that RAM kit that messed up the performance in Cinebench specifically?

It's especially strange because that kit does so well in all of the other benchmarks.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 17, 2021)

Speedyblupi said:


> What happened to the DDR4-3600 kit in Cinebench? RAM shouldn't make a difference to that as Cinebench usually runs in cache


Wait, what now?


----------



## Axaion (Nov 19, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> happy to test it if you send me such a kit


I would if i was made of money, sadly i use the decent kit i have myself


----------



## MarsM4N (Nov 28, 2021)

So for gaming you're basically fine if you go the cheap DDR4 route. Or you wait another 9 months, availability of DDR5 will go up & prices go down.
Then you can buy a kit of DDR5 before the run for the Zen 4 (AM5) machine begins, wait for reviews & then decide if you go the AMD or Intel route.

Begs the question, has DDR5 any benefit in combination with *PCIe 4.0 SSD's* and *Microsoft Direct Storage*?


----------



## Mussels (Nov 28, 2021)

MarsM4N said:


> So for gaming you're basically fine if you go the cheap DDR4 route. Or you wait another 9 months, availability of DDR5 will go up & prices go down.
> Then you can buy a kit of DDR5 before the run for the Zen 4 (AM5) machine begins, wait for reviews & then decide if you go the AMD or Intel route.
> 
> Begs the question, has DDR5 any benefit in combination with *PCIe 4.0 SSD's* and *Microsoft Direct Storage*?


I would assume no, and that direct storage will 100% be limited by the read speeds of the NVME drive vs the write speeds of the VRAM
It's gunna be very interesting how that works with fast NVME and excessive VRAM on some cards, but look at how DX12 multi GPU panned out... we need this tech to actually appear, first


----------



## BubbiSmith (Feb 1, 2022)

Late to the game here, hoping I can get a quick answer. I've got a 12900K and am looking for a MB
ROG STRIX Z690-A GAMING WIFI D4 or MPG-Z690-EDGE-WIFI-DDR4. I'm coming from a x99 6850K.
I want to use my memory from that machine, it's Trident Z - F4-3200C16Q-64GTZKW. I'm trying to figure out if I can run that memory which is quad-channel. I'd hoped to run the 64GB. Any idea if this might work? TIA - bubs


----------



## Zubasa (Feb 1, 2022)

BubbiSmith said:


> Late to the game here, hoping I can get a quick answer. I've got a 12900K and am looking for a MB
> ROG STRIX Z690-A GAMING WIFI D4 or MPG-Z690-EDGE-WIFI-DDR4. I'm coming from a x99 6850K.
> I want to use my memory from that machine, it's Trident Z - F4-3200C16Q-64GTZKW. I'm trying to figure out if I can run that memory which is quad-channel. I'd hoped to run the 64GB. Any idea if this might work? TIA - bubs


Quad-Channel kits are just binned to work better together. There is nothing stopping you from using it in dual-channel.
These are 3200 kit with modest timing, they should work fine on just about any current gen CPU / board.
https://www.gskill.com/qvl/165/168/1536286562/F4-3200C16Q-64GTZKW-Qvl
Basically every Z690 DDR4 board is on the QVL.


----------



## BubbiSmith (Feb 1, 2022)

Thank you so much. That brings back some info I once knew! And also for pointing out and linking the QVL. I think I'll go with the MSI tomorrow.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 1, 2022)

BubbiSmith said:


> Thank you so much. That brings back some info I once knew! And also for pointing out and linking the QVL. I think I'll go with the MSI tomorrow.


I will offer an agreement with Zubasa, that kit you have is very unlikely to have problems and will run perfectly with your 12900k on any motherboard that supports that CPU & DDR4. No worries.


----------



## BubbiSmith (Feb 1, 2022)

Thanks very much Lex for giving me an extra boost of confidence. I built the 6850 system just before AMD came back and started the many-core era. I've not upgraded any machines before, only built from scratch, but there seems to be a real benefit now, and I'm using some key parts from the previous system to save some $ and watch and hope prices and availability get sorted. I really appreciate you and Lubusa for timely replies. Cheers.

Well, since I'm on a roll here...  I might as well ask: I need to pick a MOBO. I've most always have used ASUS, and some knowledgeable video people use this Asus in their builds:

ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A GAMING WIFI








						ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A GAMING WIFI D4 LGA 1700 ATX Motherboard
					

Buy ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A GAMING WIFI D4 LGA 1700 ATX Motherboard featuring ATX Form Factor, Intel Z690 Chipset, LGA1700 Socket, 4 x Dual-Channel DDR4 RAM Slots, 6 x SATA III, 4 x M.2, 1 x PCIe 5.0 x16, 1 x PCIe 3.0 x16 Slots, 1 x PCIe 3.0 x1 Slot, Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) | Bluetooth 5.2, USB 3.2 Gen...




					www.bhphotovideo.com
				




However, I have a Noctua NH-D15S, which is offset away from the PCIe slots. And Noctua says this regards the Asus:

Cooler must be installed turned by 180° (offset towards the PCIe cards) in order to clear the plastic cover over the VRM heatsink.
I could certainly turn it around, but I don't like being forced into it for a really big looking cover on the Asus. I was thinking it's removable and otherwise I could 'make' it fit.  Then I spotted the MSI which spec wise seems pretty similar. I don't know MSI much, only the good rep it has with Afterburner and their video cards. Any comments? There's no reviews on B&H yet.

MSI MPG Z690 EDGE WIFI DDR4








						MSI MPG Z690 EDGE WIFI DDR4 LGA 1700 ATX Motherboard
					

Buy MSI MPG Z690 EDGE WIFI DDR4 LGA 1700 ATX Motherboard featuring ATX Form Factor, Intel Z690 Chipset, LGA 1700 Socket, 4 x Dual-Channel DDR4-5200 (OC), 6 x SATA III, 4 x M.2, 1 x PCIe 5.0 x16, 2 x PCIe 3.0 x16 Slots, 1 x PCIe 3.0 x1 Slot, Realtek ALC4080 Audio Codec, Wi-Fi 6 & Bluetooth 5.2...




					www.bhphotovideo.com
				




Thanks again


----------



## Zubasa (Feb 2, 2022)

BubbiSmith said:


> Thanks very much Lex for giving me an extra boost of confidence. I built the 6850 system just before AMD came back and started the many-core era. I've not upgraded any machines before, only built from scratch, but there seems to be a real benefit now, and I'm using some key parts from the previous system to save some $ and watch and hope prices and availability get sorted. I really appreciate you and Lubusa for timely replies. Cheers.
> 
> Well, since I'm on a roll here...  I might as well ask: I need to pick a MOBO. I've most always have used ASUS, and some knowledgeable video people use this Asus in their builds:
> 
> ...


For Z690 MSI actually managed the best with DDR4 compatibility on launch. As for motherboard even the modest Pro Z690-A has a competent vrm for overclocking.
You will struggle to cool the cpu long before the board overheats.


----------



## BubbiSmith (Feb 2, 2022)

Thanks Zubasa, I ordered an MSI MPG EDGE today, I couldn't resist and ordered a 980 Pro to go along with it.  I'll post something after my build or during if I have a problem!


----------

