# The Pirate Bay in Legal Soup, Owners Fined and Jailed



## btarunr (Apr 17, 2009)

The Pirate Bay, one of the largest BitTorrent tracker websites, that allows peer-to-peer file sharing and is infamous to host torrent links to copyrighted content on users' computers, is in legal soup vide a verdict from a Swedish Court of law. The Court has convicted four men responsible for running the website after its founding anti-copyright group, Piratebyran gave up control. The four men, Frederik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm Warg, Carl Lundstrom and Peter Sunde were found guilty of multiple counts of copyright infringement, and sentenced to one year's imprisonment. A fine of around US $3.5 million was further issued, with each of the four having to pay around $905,000. 

The verdict comes as a victory for record companies, that welcome it, despite the fine imposed not being anywhere close to the $17.5 million + damages, several groups of record companies were pushing for. Speaking in a video address hosted on the website, Peter Sunde described the verdict as "bizarre". "It's so bizarre that we were convicted at all and it's even more bizarre that we were [convicted] as a team. The court said we were organized. I can't get Gottfrid out of bed in the morning. If you're going to convict us, convict us of disorganized crime" he said. Speaking about the fine, he said "We can't pay and we wouldn't pay. Even if I had the money I would rather burn everything I owned, and I wouldn't even give them the ashes."






The damages collected would be paid to a number of companies that pressed charges in this case, that include Warner Bros, Sony Music Entertainment, EMI, and Columbia Pictures.

This verdict has several legal, moral, and political angles to it. The activities of users on The Pirate Bay, by users sharing copyrighted content (music, videos, and software) have indeed been a nightmare for any record publishing house, though the copyrighted content is technically not stored on the website's servers, or hosted by it in any form. The website serves as a BitTorrent tracker, pointing users' computers to the content on other computers across the internet. The prosecution's contention has been throughout, that assisting in making copyright content available is an offense serious enough to be tried on, while the defense maintained that it would be an impractical charge when the website claims no responsibility for what users share, and that even the BitTorrent files the website hosts are created by users themselves. 

The verdict has also sparked off political unrest in Sweden, where Rickard Falkvinge, leader of The Pirate Party, a political party that holds reforming laws around copyright and patents in the digital age as part of its manifesto, told BBC that the verdict was a "gross injustice". "This wasn't a criminal trial, it was a political trial. It is just gross beyond description that you can jail four people for providing infrastructure. There is a lot of anger in Sweden right now. File-sharing is an institution here and while I can't encourage people to break copyright law, I'm not following it and I don't agree with it. Today's events make file-sharing a hot political issue and we're going to take this to the European Parliament," he said.

The group expressed intentions to appeal against the verdict. "That's outrageous, in my point of view. Of course we will appeal... This is the first word, not the last. The last word will be ours." said Per Samuelson, lawyer for Carl Lundstrom.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 17, 2009)

I do believe they will wrangle out of this somehow. Or it will continue on for a very long time and neither side will win nor lose. Still, I find it a moral victory as pirating is bad, but then why should people pay extortionate prices for products that they can get for free via other means. 
On the other hand I am thankful of The Pirate Bay and I do hope that they get out of this.


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## HellasVagabond (Apr 17, 2009)

I am not surprised...The money and pressure the record companies invested payed off.....


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Apr 17, 2009)

do they have anything illegal no their servers?


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## Taz100420 (Apr 17, 2009)

That would of been nice if they DID make their own little country for The Pirate Bay website and not get in trouble.

For crying out loud, No one is going to be able  to stop file-sharing and pirating, NO ONE!! Shoot I download games and movies b/c at one time I did own the original disc and these merely served as a backup for when the discs came up missing(I had alot of theft in my old house lol).


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## MRCL (Apr 17, 2009)

Hmh. Well what do you expect. CDs cost a horrendous amount of money nowadays. Only natural that people want to find away around that. I pay for CDs when I want to support the musicians. Mostly local bands and such. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when some artits can't even walk upright anymore because of all the gold around their necks. I refuse to support such artists.

Same with movies. I buy movies I like very much, and I go to the cinema from time to time. But please, if a movie company invested 100 millions in a movie and earned 200 millions just with cinema displays, I feel kinda ripped off paying another friggin 30 bucks for a DVD.

Oh and games... I HAD to pirate HL2, Tropico 2 and Earth2160. The first because the disc is scratched, the second because it won't install anymore (whyever that is) and the third because I can't activate it via internet anymore and the activation hotline has been shut down. 

My two cents. Glad the swiss law plays along until now.


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## Braveheart (Apr 17, 2009)

i didn't see it in the article...do they get to keep their site? or are they being forced to take it down?


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## HellasVagabond (Apr 17, 2009)

The site is not based inside the EU so noone can take it down.
Certainly others will run it now.


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## Braveheart (Apr 17, 2009)

MRCL said:


> Hmh. Well what do you expect. CDs cost a horrendous amount of money nowadays. Only natural that people want to find away around that. I pay for CDs when I want to support the musicians. Mostly local bands and such. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when some artits can't even walk upright anymore because of all the gold around their necks. I refuse to support such artists.
> 
> Same with movies. I buy movies I like very much, and I go to the cinema from time to time. But please, if a movie company invested 100 millions in a movie and earned 200 millions just with cinema displays, I feel kinda ripped off paying another friggin 30 bucks for a DVD.
> 
> ...



exactly! i have pirated many things because i bought it and it wouldn't install, disk is gone, file became corrupted, etc...which is really not stealing if you paid for the item in the first place.


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

You'd think with the amount of money involved that they companies didn't just assassinate them


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## iStink (Apr 17, 2009)

I was just seeing on a different site that a movie where the tracker was hosted by pirate bay was getting people into trouble.  People were commenting that Paramount had contacted their ISPs.  I have a feeling the pirate bay won't be taken down, but I definitely won't download anything from there and haven't downloaded anything from there for a long time now.  

Lets face it, these companies haven't shown proof that pirating is effecting their sales.  If anything, profits are up and record setting (from what I've read various places.)  What they see isn't how well they're doing, but how well they COULD be doing. 

I just went out and bought The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas because I really liked it (after downloading it.)  If I rented it, I would have done the same thing, but for every movie I like and buy, there are at least 3 stinkers I don't want to ever see again.  Like Inkheart, man what a STINKER, PEEYEWWW. 

What companies like Paramount don't want to admit is, the days of making sh*t movies where all the good scenes are in the previews are over because people can find out on their own for free (easily) that the movie sucks. 

BTW, when the F is Wedding Crashers coming to blu-ray? Is anyone else with me when I say that's one of those movies I definitely gladly paid money for in the theater and then again on DVD?


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## h3llb3nd4 (Apr 17, 2009)

I really don't have the money to buy stuff... and that's why I've stopped gaming
anyway... even though pirate bay is shut down... there are other means of downloading without it... most of the files are stored in rapidshare anyway...
so i don't really think this is a big deal to piracy...


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## MRCL (Apr 17, 2009)

iStink said:


> I was just seeing on a different site that a movie where the tracker was hosted by pirate bay was getting people into trouble.  People were commenting that Paramount had contacted their ISPs.  I have a feeling the pirate bay won't be taken down, but I definitely won't download anything from there and haven't downloaded anything from there for a long time now.
> 
> Lets face it, these companies haven't shown proof that pirating is effecting their sales.  If anything, profits are up and record setting (from what I've read various places.)  What they see isn't how well they're doing, but how well they COULD be doing.
> 
> ...



Not to mention that concert visits have risen significantly. Simply because you have simpler access to music and more people know about you.


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## hat (Apr 17, 2009)

and yet TBP is still up.

If I was God there would be a special place in Heaven for TPB administrators


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

I think this how thing is retarded, if the record companies and such were not stuck so far up themselves and living in the past they would realise they could distribute their own products for " free" and rely completely on advertising, imagine how much traffic a sony record free download shop would get, people would pay a shit load for banner ads!


And as for films, Films could be downloaded in a .exe format so they play 10 minutes of ads at the start just like at the cinema, if you don't want to watch you go have a coffee til the film starts.

So many ways to invest their money and ideas, and they just take down 4 guys instead. What is especially stupid is TPB has servers in Belgium and Russia too, and I'm sure more will spring up.


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## ZoneDymo (Apr 17, 2009)

Good that their in jail.
Its their site, they own it and made it and SHOULD take responsibility. 
If illegale stuff is on there, they should remove it.


BTW, what is the point of torrents anyway?
What legal purpose does it serve that you can not do in another way?


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

ZoneDymo said:


> Good that their in jail.
> Its their site, they own it and made it and SHOULD take responsibility.
> If illegale stuff is on there, they should remove it.
> 
> ...




Firstly, nothing illegal was on the site.

Second, torrents cost nothing, it uses user internet connections and speeds, low maintenance and cheap, surely this is a good thing?

You can torrent legal things too : ]


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## MRCL (Apr 17, 2009)

ZoneDymo said:


> Good that their in jail.
> Its their site, they own it and made it and SHOULD take responsibility.
> If illegale stuff is on there, they should remove it.
> 
> ...



How will you remove that, which is unremovable.

The point of torrents is providing a form of downloading large quantities of data with the ability to pause the download. Imagine Downloading 10gb of data the normal way, and your PC crashes. Well, start from the beginning. With torrents, you can pick up where you left. For example, german hardware magazine chip.de offers downloads of patches, freeware and demos via torrent, if they are large.


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## Hybrid_theory (Apr 17, 2009)

What software companies need to protect is their licenses. Microsoft for example is developing a model to protect their licenses, and they won't care if you download a piece of software cause your disc got destroyed. You paid for the license to use the software, not the software itself in a sense.

More companies should follow this.

As per movies and cds, why not cut down costs a bit. May get people more willing to purchase products.


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 17, 2009)

i purchase media if i truely feel it deserves it. Like download first to try it out, and if i find myself listening to it time and time again i will go out and buy it. It's about time things moved away from CD's and DVD and became wholly digital.


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## TheLostSwede (Apr 17, 2009)

Right, it would be nice if TPU could get their stories right.
First of all, no-one's in jail, although the sentence called for a 1 year prison term.
Three of the people behind the pirate bay doesn't even live in Sweden, so the chance is very slim that either of them will serve any actual time in jail. 
They were found guilty to having aided copyright infringement crimes, rather than having committed any kind of copyright infringement on their own. Hence why the sentence is way too high to fit the crime.
Secondly, the damages due are US$3.5 million, not 4.5 unless TPU use some really old exchange rate.
Lastly, all of the defendants will be taking this to the next instance and there's another court above that one and after that it's the EU court if they really want to push their luck. Expect this to drag out another 4-5 years before any final judgement is passed.
On a side note, they were not ordered to shut down the site itself, which seems very odd if they've committed the crime they were charged with. Makes you wonder...


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## newconroer (Apr 17, 2009)

Given Peter Sunde's hostile-natured remarks, that just says to me he is guilty.

Anyways, just a hunch, it's not evidence, but I find people like this eventually get what they deserve. These internet sites are playing with fire, and when you do, you get burned.

Their juvenile attempt to act naive about what The Pirate Bay really circumvents, is pathetic. He acts all tough about not paying any fines, but he doesn't have the balls to admit what their website is really for.

Do we really think that if RapidShare got pinned for 'hosting' warez, that we'd let them off the hook because they didn't know?

Please... the majority of P2P should die, and hopefully places like Pirate Bay go down with it.


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

What do you mean act naive?


They are part of an anti copy write movement.... You should wiki the pirate bay and all the names sah : ]

I don't think they are guilty at all.


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

newconroer said:


> Please... the majority of P2P should die, and hopefully places like Pirate Bay go down with it.



P2P isn't just about piracy though. It was designed so that free information can be shared freely. Its just that the majority of us abuse it.


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## TheLostSwede (Apr 17, 2009)

newconroer, you're either a very rich person that never have to worry about the cost of things.
Besides, torrent are useful for a wide range of legal things to, how do you think Blizzard updates WoW?
Even Intel is using torrents for some of its software.
The illegal aspects have nothing to do with torrents, news groups and ftp was used long before torrents existed and are still being used for illegal downloads.
And what happens when you scratch your favourite game disc or audio CD, do you go out and purchase a new copy? If you do, then you're really stupid.
Half of the stuff is being over priced, not because of the artists, film makers or even the game producers, but because of the publishers which charge a huge amount of money for publishing music, games and movies.
If torrents were adopted for legal downloads at a much more reasonable price than we pay today, then I'd be all for it.
Another gripe I have is why is it that American's can watch TV shows legally online, but just because I live in another part of the world, I'm not allowed to do so, as the advertising isn't target me... wtf?
The current system for content delivery is outdated and the money grabbers are fighting as hard as they can to keep it like that, as they're making big bucks on the back of it.
If you could download something in the same quality as it would be on a disc for less money, wouldn't this be a more sensible way to do things, as not only would you save money on it, but the environmental impact would also be lower as you wouldn't have to drive to the shop or have something delivered to you. There would be no need to manufacture physical media, packaging etc which would further reduce the environmental impact, nor would anything have to be shipped halfway across the planet just so you could enjoy the latest game, movie or music.
The Pirate Bay have most likely helped the environment, unknowingly, something that hasn't been taken into account at all.
Go on, I'm sure you have some good counter arguments here...


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

No need to call him a moron because he has a different view thats just ignorant.


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## btarunr (Apr 17, 2009)

TheLostSwede said:


> Right, it would be nice if TPU could get their stories right.
> First of all, no-one's in jail, although the sentence called for a 1 year prison term.
> Three of the people behind the pirate bay doesn't even live in Sweden, so the chance is very slim that either of them will serve any actual time in jail.
> They were found guilty to having aided copyright infringement crimes, rather than having committed any kind of copyright infringement on their own. Hence why the sentence is way too high to fit the crime.
> ...



Care to click on the link to the source? Also when the court "jails" someone, it means the court sentenced someone to imprisonment, if that someone is already in jail or not is not relevant to the statement.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> No need to call him a moron because he has a different view thats just ignorant.



sad thing is he is somewhat right,

and no one is in jail yet the case is not over, these kind of cases have phases, they get moved from court to court



> After a decidedly entertaining trial replete with posturing, theatrics and serious cockiness, the four co-founders of the torrent site were found to have been accessories to copyright infringement, each face a year in prison, and must pay $3.5m in damages to Sony, Warner Bros, Columbia Pictures and others.
> 
> Although he could be going to jail soon, Sunde is still quick to make a joke:
> 
> ...



No-one is going to jail until the trial is finished, and its nowhere near finished, at this state I think they would be unable to leave the country in question though.

From CNN



> The defendants are free without restrictions while they appeal the judgment.



and its not 4.5 million in US dollars I think is between 3.5 and 3.6

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/04/17/sweden.piracy.jail/


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## Exeodus (Apr 17, 2009)

ZoneDymo said:


> Good that their in jail.
> Its their site, they own it and made it and SHOULD take responsibility.
> If illegale stuff is on there, they should remove it.
> 
> ...



When i downloaded a collection of dreamscene files from Microsoft, using a torrent was one of the downloading options.  That way the don't have to pay for server space, they let end-users host the file.


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## btarunr (Apr 17, 2009)

The fine was ~$3.5M not 4.5M, with each of them having to pay ~$905,000, not 4.5M as BBC suggested.


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## TheLostSwede (Apr 17, 2009)

Well btarunr, then the dear old BBC is wrong, trust me on this one, I happen to be able to read my own mother language, something the folks over at the BBC most likely can't...
30 million SEK is US$3.5(6) million, at least using today's exchange rate, but who knows what the BBC is using...
At the end of the day, they're a 4th party source at best in this case, while having a read over on the Local which offers Swedish news in English, you might have better luck http://www.thelocal.se/18908.html

And I'm sorry, I meant to say naive, ignorant, foolish, witless and misinformed, not moron...


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## erocker (Apr 17, 2009)

TheLostSwede said:


> Well btarunr, then the dear old BBC is wrong, trust me on this one, I happen to be able to read my own mother language, something the folks over at the BBC most likely can't...
> 30 million SEK is US$3.5(6) million, at least using today's exchange rate, but who knows what the BBC is using...
> At the end of the day, they're a 4th party source at best in this case, while having a read over on one the Local which offers Swedish news in English, you might have better luck http://www.thelocal.se/18908.html
> 
> And I'm sorry, I meant to say naive, ignorant, foolish, witless and misinformed, not moron...



Um.. how about just misinformed?  Keep your insults to yourself.


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## DaMulta (Apr 17, 2009)

I blame Somalia Pirates. They are just messing with Pirate Bay's good names by taking American ships.

;p

Long live the pirates!


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## MRCL (Apr 17, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> I blame Somalia Pirates. They are just messing with Pirate Bay's good names by taking American ships.
> 
> ;p
> 
> Long live the pirates!



I remember reading somewhere something like this:

Piracy wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't named piracy. Because pirates are cool, everybody wants to be a priate!

Arrr!


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## Ongaku (Apr 17, 2009)

haha....

I figured something would go down with them again...


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

One of their first servers is in a museum, I'm sure they will carry on.


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## btarunr (Apr 17, 2009)

Yup. 







One small packet for a server, a giant leap for mankind.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 17, 2009)

I would help them fight it in court if I had the funds.


If the Swedish even have appeals anymore.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 17, 2009)

"Please... the majority of P2P should die, and hopefully places like Pirate Bay go down with it."

Your joking ,right. See if you understand this. If a bank robber uses a car for a getaway, do we ban all cars because they could be used for robbing banks.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

I know, they're goiing about this wrong, they say alot of the time that P2P should all die, but many many many companies use P2P now, Nasa, a sh@tload of games, many apps for updates, if it all died alot of people would be screwed

even next gen consoles are planned to use p2p I think


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## HellasVagabond (Apr 17, 2009)

Pirates are cool because of Jack Sparrow.....
Next move of the music industry is to attack The Pirates Of The Carribean !


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## Random Murderer (Apr 17, 2009)

btarunr said:


> The prosecution's contention has been throughout, that assisting in making copyright content available is an offense serious enough to be tried on,



so are they going to sue flea markets because of boot-leggers? or google because it helps us find torrents?
while they're at it, why not just sue everyone on the internet?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm glad they shut the damn thing down. Bastards had no respect for art or hard work.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

lol, im sure they are thinking of ways to sue everyone on the internet, cause. . . . 

theres dollar bills to be to be had lol

"Gotta Catch Em All"


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## HellasVagabond (Apr 17, 2009)

For the last time...The server is located in Africa someplace so they CAN'T shut it down.
Most of the servers like the pirate bay server are located in countries like that.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 17, 2009)

HellasVagabond said:


> For the last time...The server is located in Africa someplace so they CAN'T shut it down.
> Most of the servers like the pirate bay server are located in countries like that.



Maybe one of the only good things coming out of Africa.  j/k


PirateBay provides rips that are not the same quality as the originals. The only real exception is flac audio downloads which are really rare anyway. Piratebay serves as "try it before you buy it" for those that have the money. For the poor P2P is simply their only chance at experiencing alot of media for the most part.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

well there is always gonna be more places like the pirate bay anyway just in case, but could you imagine there being no p2p now, remember spore, now think of every game being like spore security wise


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## HellasVagabond (Apr 17, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Maybe one of the only good things coming out of Africa.  j/k
> 
> 
> PirateBay provides rips that are not the same quality as the originals. The only real exception is flac audio downloads which are really rare anyway. Piratebay serves as "try it before you buy it" for those that have the money. For the poor P2P is simply their only chance at experiencing alot of media for the most part.



I don't consider 1080p mkv as poor quality but ok


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## Random Murderer (Apr 17, 2009)

ha, go to the pirate bay's front page:
"Don't worry - we're from the internets. It's going to be alright. "


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Maybe one of the only good things coming out of Africa.  j/k
> 
> 
> PirateBay provides rips that are not the same quality as the originals. The only real exception is flac audio downloads which are really rare anyway. Piratebay serves as "try it before you buy it" for those that have the money. For the poor P2P is simply their only chance at experiencing alot of media for the most part.




Just need to find the right uploader XD


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## IcrushitI (Apr 17, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Maybe one of the only good things coming out of Africa.  j/k
> 
> 
> PirateBay provides rips that are not the same quality as the originals. The only real exception is flac audio downloads which are really rare anyway. Piratebay serves as "try it before you buy it" for those that have the money. For the poor P2P is simply their only chance at experiencing alot of media for the most part.



Good answer, I look at it the same way. As an example how many people can actually use most of Adobe's programs. I haven't the time to study their programs the way they were meant to be used. That goes with most of the expensive programs that you can try before you buy. If I had a business that could use photoshop to the extreme, as an example, I could write it off as a business expense. Most of the time, if I'm bored, I look at the programs to see what you would get if you paid $1000 dollars.


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## mdm-adph (Apr 17, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> Your joking ,right. See if you understand this. If a bank robber uses a car for a getaway, do we ban all cars because they could be used for robbing banks.



Haven't you been following the news for the past 30 years or so -- the answer is "yes!"



TheMailMan78 said:


> I'm glad they shut the damn thing down. Bastards had no respect for art or hard work.



  Look, I'll admit they were a bit too brazen with it.  But you can no more ban the Pirate Bay because its _users_ are sharing copywrited information than you can ban TechPowerUp because someone once posted a cd-key for Diablo2 in the forums.

Get it?

EDIT:  Actually, in regards to TechPowerUp being hypothetically taken down, at least in the US, you're not responsible for what users post on your servers, as long as you take it down if someone asks.  Don't know what the laws are regarding that in Sweden.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I'm glad they shut the damn thing down. Bastards had no respect for art or hard work.



well for starters its not as if they are sitting and uploading that content themselves. . . . 

and sometimes a persons art and hard work are not worth paying for if they slap a 100 dollar price tag on some garbage it took them like a day to make


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 17, 2009)

Somebody uploaded onto Pirate Bay a picture of my car I was going to sell for $1 million USD. Ten people downloaded it..... Now the owners of Pirate Bay owe me $10 million USD. Who says the price put on media is worth the going rate? Are they really responsible for stuff that takes no approval from the owners to upload.

If Somebody spammed youtube with CP would Youtube then be taken down? Would the owners of youtube get charged for displaying CP?

You must prove criminal intent.


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

Fun little fact  the metallica drummer lars ulrich uploaded death magnetic on P2P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Ulrich#Napster_controversy

Now the thing is the album isn't his. Its the record companies so technically why are the pirate bay being sued jailed etc when he is also a pirate.


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## DaMulta (Apr 17, 2009)

Click Me

DO WHAT YOU WANT BECAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE! YOU ARE A PIRATE!

BTW The site is working just fine LOLz


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> Click Me
> 
> DO WHAT YOU WANT BECAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE! YOU ARE A PIRATE!
> 
> BTW The site is working just fine LOLz



I clicked


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 17, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> Click Me
> 
> DO WHAT YOU WANT BECAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE! YOU ARE A PIRATE!



That flash animation is like ten years old.... 


I remember it. Brings back memories.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 17, 2009)

KainXS said:


> well for starters its not as if they are sitting and uploading that content themselves. . . .
> 
> and sometimes a persons art and hard work are not worth paying for if they slap a 100 dollar price tag on some garbage it took them like a day to make



No they provide the service. Just as bad. As for what someones hard work is worth its not up to you. Its up to that person. Paying anything less than what they are willing to take is stealing.


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

This is going to develop into a good ol' forum war with each camp using worn out arguements to try and dissauade the other and it wont work. At the very least I hope this stays civilized.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 17, 2009)

if anything they should go after the illegal users

some of them find legal loop holes tho like a guy has uploaded a subscription based vista, he can legally share it with anyone, its worth thousands of pounds and can be activated, its that msdn thing that he got as a microsoft employee, there are also types of product license that allow sharing

i own games but i got a copy of a rome total war disk because it physically snapped in the middle

i also got a video of ice cubes friday which i have the box set of, i only wanted it so i could store it as a 500mb file on a flash drive and take it to college

its the users at fault, there are many legal uses of torrents for example sharing a download like for example you can get linux from a torrent

torrents can be paused and started again while a full download you have to wait there and then right?


people have to moderate themselves when using downloads for example i know people who hardly ever buy dvds and music
the owners of the material are right tho they made the item and worked hard on it so you should pay for it too

paying for pirated material is stupid, your paying someone else who stole it. but when its for free no one gets any cash not a third party, im not saying stealing is okay but paying for it is worse


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 17, 2009)

I shall take you on your quest for a debate




TheMailMan78 said:


> No they provide the service. Just as bad. As for what someones hard work is worth its not up to you. Its up to that person. *Paying anything less than what they are willing to take is stealing*.




What they are *willing* to take is extortionate. They can lower the cost and still make oodles of money.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 17, 2009)

WhiteLotus is right they expect us to pay loads of money when the profits they make go into the billions.
IF they are a monopoly or are market leaders they can practically charge what they like


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No they provide the service. Just as bad. As for what someones hard work is worth its not up to you. Its up to that person. Paying anything less than what they are willing to take is stealing.




So local councils should be shut down if people utilise their environment for crime purposes ?

Individuals should be held accountable, not the platform they are working on.

Otherwise you could argue its all the governments fault for not breaking everyones hands at birth and allowing some people to commit crime.  


Sorry for extreme example but its fair enough I think.


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## DaveK (Apr 17, 2009)

I'll admit I pirate, but so what, it doesn't harm anyone (But the companies like to think it does because they're greedy fucks and them not getting €20 is a big deal even though they get 100's of millions). I mostly download movies. If I want to see the movie I'll see it in the cinema, but if I'm not sure I'll like it I just download it. Like the movie Friday. My friend told me about it and I downloaded it off the net to check it out, I liked the movie and bought it, and it's 2 sequels. If I get caught I'm looking at up to 5 years and a fine of up to €250,000. All because I downloaded stuff, it's bullshit.

If I download a movie that I wouldn't have seen in the cinema, the company isn't losing out money because I never would have went to see it. Though they will gain money when I buy the DVD. If I didn't download the movie, I wouldn't have bought the DVD. Though there is movies I have downloaded and haven't bought on DVD simply because I cannot afford it, but do plan to purchase them.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No they provide the service. Just as bad. As for what someones hard work is worth its not up to you. Its up to that person. Paying anything less than what they are willing to take is stealing.



so lets look at this situation, if you bought a dvd player as new and you opened the box and it was broken who was robbed there, I believe you should be able to demo something before you buy it so you don't get ripped off, I was done with buying games I couldn't test after buyin spore and getting pwned, if its bad I just don't buy it and don't play it.

Theres a limit sure, if you pirate something with no intention of EVER paying for it that is clearly illegal, but if you buy something and it turns out to be misadvertized then that should also be illegal.


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## The Witcher (Apr 17, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No they provide the service. Just as bad. As for what someones hard work is worth its not up to you. Its up to that person. Paying anything less than what they are willing to take is stealing.



As much as I like free stuff but still I have to agree with you. 

People should place themselves in artists or game companies place and think. 

Personally I saw people downloading games just because they are free not because they scratched their original discs or want to try them before buying them, saying other than that is silly tbh, at least in my case.

I think that all crack and serial providers (pirates) should be terminated (I like this word)
because without them, many people would have the money, the money which was lost due to piracy to improve their projects or release them, projects like games, music,  programs...etc.

Anyway I admit that I'm using a cracked software (RadioTracker) because I don't have credit card to buy it.


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

This is obviously a very morally and socially dependant subject.

May I suggest we just leave be?


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 17, 2009)

The Witcher said:


> As much as I like free stuff but still I have to agree with you.
> 
> People should place themselves in artists or game companies place and think.
> 
> ...




So technically everyone that taped the radio back in the day to get a particular song is also guilty of pirating?
Also those people that try chocolates for free at those stands with no intention of buying a box afterwords is also a pirate.
Most bands now let you listen to their songs on their website without paying them - so i guess that's pirating seeing as your not paying for the privilege of listening to them.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

this is gonna end up with whether is fair to copy cd's that you own sooner or later so I think we need to get back on track with this thread


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

I dont think internet piracy is as bad as real piracy although they are equally morally wrong. 
I do think piracy is wrong but I can't help myself its free for godsake. I like watching television shows that I can't watch here in the UK even if I try buy them. That however is no way to justify why I did it that is just the cause. How do we stop piracy ? We can't no matter how cheap you make the product even if it was £0.01 people would still pirate it. The best way to control it or make it less damaging is if the company regulates the piracy. Say for example there was a program that let you listen to music on demand whatever you wanted but every 5 songs there was 5 minutes of commercials etc. Game piracy cannot be stopped by DRM. The only way to stop that is to get rid of the source of the cracks and warez.


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> I dont think internet piracy is as bad as real piracy although they are equally morally wrong.



Morals are not a set of rules written in stone, my morals are clearly different to yours which one of us is wrong?


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

pirates arrrggggggg

did anyone ever wonder why its called pirating, I mean I know what " real piracy" is
and I just wonder who started this trend


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

KainXS said:


> pirates arrrggggggg




I was just in the middle of reading your serious post when it changed to that, I laughed, hard.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> I was just in the middle of reading your serious post when it changed to that, I laughed, hard.



I know, ^^

i did it on purpose, sly aint i

edited


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## mtosev (Apr 17, 2009)

does anyone remember suprnova.org? it was a slovenian site and the guy got a house raid and after that he abandoned the site


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## DrPepper (Apr 17, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Morals are not a set of rules written in stone, my morals are clearly different to yours which one of us is wrong?



Yeah but thats pretty much capitilism's morals.


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## DaMulta (Apr 17, 2009)

I think gamecopyworld has more of a right of being sued then piratebay.


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## mtosev (Apr 17, 2009)

HellasVagabond said:


> For the last time...The server is located in Africa someplace so they CAN'T shut it down.
> Most of the servers like the pirate bay server are located in countries like that.



am i stupid or something? Whois says the server is in Sweden?
http://www.whois.net/whois/thepiratebay.org


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 17, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> I think gamecopyworld has more of a right of being sued then piratebay.



Ssssshhhhh don't talk about Gamecopyworld

Thats rules one through three to GameCopyWorld.




mtosev said:


> am i stupid or something? Whois says the server is in Sweden?
> http://www.whois.net/whois/thepiratebay.org



I am sure they have more than one.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

not too sure about cracks, theres not anything wrong with using them unless you pirated the game, I remember when I had oblivion when I first got it back in the the far far away, the game would crash when I tried to start it, take out the cd and it would say put in the cd, crack to the rescue.


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## tomkaten (Apr 17, 2009)

The way I see this, most people who seem to support these "pirates" are often those who are sick of living in a world where we're constantly lied to, where vendors advertise 90% chemical "potato-chips" as the ideal food for your kid, where McDonald's sells Happy Meals to children and openly lie in those sheets of papers attached to the tray about their "natural" products. Riiight...

I'm one of those people I've mentioned. I'm sick of false commercials, of companies praising movies and software that I would never spend a dime on, of these recording moguls thinking they own this world and of governments condoning their actions.

You have to be a fucking cynic to want to be able to rip me of my money by openly lying to me, but at the same time expect me to be the model citizen and just spend, spend, spend on every piece of worthless material out there.

The matter is a lot more complex, I know, but I just had to get that off my chest.


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## Polarman (Apr 17, 2009)

1 organization down, 1 million to go.


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## KainXS (Apr 17, 2009)

tomkaten said:


> The way I see this, most people who seem to support these "pirates" are often those who are sick of living in a world where we're constantly lied to, where vendors advertise 90% chemical "potato-chips" as the ideal food for your kid, where McDonald's sells Happy Meals to children and openly lie in those sheets of papers attached to the tray about their "natural" products. Riiight...
> 
> I'm one of those people I've mentioned. I'm sick of false commercials, of companies praising movies and software that I would never spend a dime on, of these recording moguls thinking they own this world and of governments condoning their actions.
> 
> ...



its funny you mentioned potato chips, I bought a big bag of sour cream chips for a dollar 25 yesterday and the dam bag had like 6 chips in it, i was so mad

no joke, it seems thats the case nowadays, gettin ripped off is normal now

I reemember when i was young you couldn't download anythin cause AOL always kicked you off though, these are the times I guess


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## 1c3d0g (Apr 17, 2009)

ZoneDymo said:


> Good that their in jail.
> Its their site, they own it and made it and SHOULD take responsibility.
> If illegale stuff is on there, they should remove it.
> 
> ...



How much did they pay you to write this crap? Do you seriously think that one lousy court ruling is going to end file-sharing? You are as delusional as your corporate puppets are. :shadedshu

P.S. I'm a pirate too...whoohoo...careful...


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## pantherx12 (Apr 17, 2009)

Just saw the bbc report on this, I was very disappointed and a bit miffed was very sensationalist and biased.

Bad beeb.


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## alexp999 (Apr 17, 2009)

1c3d0g said:


> How much did they pay you to write this crap? Do you seriously think that one lousy court ruling is going to end file-sharing? You are as delusional as your corporate puppets are. :shadedshu
> 
> P.S. I'm a pirate too...whoohoo...careful...



Please dont make this personal.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so long as what is said does not violate any forum rules.


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## mtosev (Apr 17, 2009)

something is seriously wrong with Sweden http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/04/04/swedish-pirates-to-run-in-eu-elections/

i LoLeD


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## MoonPig (Apr 17, 2009)

My dad randomly mentioned this today, so i looked on the news and they exaggerated everything, haha. 

5mins later i was on the site watching the videos they had uploaded about the trial.

Their right though, their not going to go down for it. If they did, you could just sue Google.com for linking to torrents.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 17, 2009)

MoonPig said:


> My dad randomly mentioned this today, so i looked on the news and they exaggerated everything, haha.
> 
> 5mins later i was on the site watching the videos they had uploaded about the trial.
> 
> Their right though, their not going to go down for it. If they did, you could just sue Google.com for linking to torrents.



Big difference, goggle has millions to pay for the best lawyers. Goggle can stall this untill the New World Order comes about. The big question here is who appoints the Judges their seats. Here in Canada the Government of the day appoints  the Federal and Supreme Court judges without even a committee to check their credentials. Provincially, again, its the government of the day. The people have no say. So depending if the government of the day happens to be from the left or the right that is the decisions that will come down. Many many years ago Democracy meant something other then what it means today. Once the people have used their democratic right to vote which is about all that is left of peoples democracy the dictatorship at the top runs the show after that. Break time.


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## alexp999 (Apr 17, 2009)

Wow since when did it become Goggle?

Sorry couldnt help myself. It will be interesting to see how this progress, I believe they are appealing.


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## ascstinger (Apr 17, 2009)

I'd be more supportive of the proceedings if the money were to go to the people who created the content, not a few rich fatcat's in Publishing/Production HQ.

Maybe they're just jealous of everyone else getting government handouts


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## Relayer (Apr 17, 2009)

Awarded 3.5 million? Where did that figure come from? If Pirate Bay is indeed liable for the losses incurred do to people using their service, seems to me the amount would be much higher than that.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Apr 17, 2009)

from henry morgan days til now, im going to port royal tonight!


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## Easy Rhino (Apr 18, 2009)

I would like to know how much the RIAA, MPAA and software companies have spent on lawyers, media coverage, etc. These pirate bay guys will go to jail, they will get out early and they will be unable to pay that massive fine.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Apr 18, 2009)

Easy Rhino said:


> I would like to know how much the RIAA, MPAA and software companies have spent on lawyers, media coverage, etc. These pirate bay guys will go to jail, they will get out early and they will be unable to pay that massive fine.



massive waste of time ftl?


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## Braveheart (Apr 18, 2009)

ok so hypothetically speaking...say i just pirated a very expensive software product off of piratebay...will it now be easier for the Gmen to come get me cause they are knockin' up their site?


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## Salsoolo (Apr 18, 2009)

they need to understand that every pirated mp3 isnt a lost sale.
so we should expect their revenue go up then?!


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## tkpenalty (Apr 18, 2009)

The days of internet freedom are limited now, with countries adopting anti-piracy legislation and undemocratic (for those who are in a democracy) content filtering.



Pirates Versus Ninjas.


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## r9 (Apr 18, 2009)

This thread is so F$#%#$%UP. This is so 50:50 situation. I definitely have no firm opinion. I could argue both ways. 
What about this: The companies make the money they make. They charge 50$ for a game and make profit of 50 milions. They invested half of that for creating the game so they are happy. But those 50 mil come from 10% that bought the game other 90% pirated the game because of the price. If the game costed 10$ then 50% would buy the game. And now everything is the same just the pirating is less by 50%. But the reality is that companies like every one to buy the game at 50$ so they could earn 1000% instead of 100% whitch is enough. 
And some people can afford the software but like to use pirated software so they could feel smart. But if you pirate something that is 5$ instead of 50$ there is not much satisfaction in that.


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## tkpenalty (Apr 18, 2009)

> John Kennedy, chairman and chief executive of global music body, the International Federation of the Phonographic Industries, said: "The operators of The Pirate Bay have always been interested in making money, not music.



This disgusts me, and what are record labels out to do? Make even more money. The Pirate Bay's owners dont even make 1/1000th of what record labels make in a year. I have to admit it but this is the scum of capitalism. 

And whats funny is how John Kennedy mentions how _The Pirate bay has been interested in making money, not music_, the Pirate bay has never been interested in either, it just wants to distribute content to its users; a free world. Moreover do record labels actually make the music? Its their artists, and all the record labels do, is record, and then package the records and ship them to retail outlets, and advertise.


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## KainXS (Apr 18, 2009)

in the music industry the tyrant is not the artists its the record labels, I know a few record artists personally, and I have not heard one of them say something good about them, they always rant about how they are being ripped off by them and not getting what they agreed to and there is nothing to do about it, Some artists have tried to fight back and mostly all have failed so far.

Its the higherups that are the enemy here

You guys say artists are profiting and you don't understand they're getting screwed also, only the large companies are making some "nice" profit.


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## my_name_is_earl (Apr 18, 2009)

-1 torrent   +1 Fat Pig, heard Mininova is next on the list :[


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

tkpenalty said:


> This disgusts me, and what are record labels out to do? Make even more money. The Pirate Bay's owners dont even make 1/1000th of what record labels make in a year. I have to admit it but this is the scum of capitalism.
> 
> And whats funny is how John Kennedy mentions how _The Pirate bay has been interested in making money, not music_, the Pirate bay has never been interested in either, it just wants to distribute content to its users; a free world. Moreover do record labels actually make the music? Its their artists, and all the record labels do, is record, and then package the records and ship them to retail outlets, and advertise.



Preach it.  

Places like the pirate bay and torrents and, well, the internet in general may not be the best solution, but they have freed us from the tyranny of record labels and have really opened the doors for the future of music. The market is now better than ever, the music industry is thriving more than ever, it's just not being funneled like any other corporate venture anymore. The doors are blown wide open, the corporate big wigs can fight it all they want, we'll keep running with our headphones on, they'd do good to have a listen.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 18, 2009)

WhiteLotus said:


> What they are *willing* to take is extortionate. They can lower the cost and still make oodles of money.


 Ok YOU think its extortionate. They think its fair. I think Lamborghini's are extortionate but I've never stole one because I felt that. 


MilkyWay said:


> WhiteLotus is right they expect us to pay loads of money when the profits they make go into the billions.
> IF they are a monopoly or are market leaders they can practically charge what they like


 They provide an unnecessary good. It has another name right now but it escapes me. Anyway you do not NEED it to live therefore they cannot "overcharge" you for it. Especially when listening to songs on the radio is free.



pantherx12 said:


> So local councils should be shut down if people utilize their environment for crime purposes ?
> 
> Individuals should be held accountable, not the platform they are working on.


 The platform they operate on is the Internet. No one is shutting that down. Also if this councils sole purpose was to commit crimes than yes. It should be shut down. FYI don't argue its not. They named the thing "Pirate Bay".



KainXS said:


> so lets look at this situation, if you bought a dvd player as new and you opened the box and it was broken who was robbed there, I believe you should be able to demo something before you buy it so you don't get ripped off, I was done with buying games I couldn't test after buying spore and getting pwned, if its bad I just don't buy it and don't play it.
> 
> Theres a limit sure, if you pirate something with no intention of EVER paying for it that is clearly illegal, but if you buy something and it turns out to be advertised then that should also be illegal.


 The store is robbed if you buy a DVD player and its been open and broken. Return it. As for buying a game and not liking it than download the demo. If there is no demo read reviews. If you are still not sure then don't buy the game. You do not have a right to steal an exotic car and test drive it because the dealer doesn't let you due to whatever reason.



WhiteLotus said:


> So technically everyone that taped the radio back in the day to get a particular song is also guilty of pirating?
> Also those people that try chocolates for free at those stands with no intention of buying a box afterwords is also a pirate.
> Most bands now let you listen to their songs on their website without paying them - so i guess that's pirating seeing as your not paying for the privilege of listening to them.


 Songs that are played on the radio are like game demos. They are designed to promote the game. They want word to spread about the game so they give you a test for free. Songs on the radio are the same. The only time you get in trouble for that is when you sell the tapes. 

If you eat anything at a store that isn't offered as a free sample then you are a thief until you pay for it. As for the bands comment and offering their song on the web as a free trial before you buy then thats their business. They are no different than a company representative giving free samples of its company's goods at the market.



tkpenalty said:


> This disgusts me, and what are record labels out to do? Make even more money. The Pirate Bay's owners dont even make 1/1000th of what record labels make in a year. I have to admit it but this is the scum of capitalism.
> 
> And whats funny is how John Kennedy mentions how _The Pirate bay has been interested in making money, not music_, the Pirate bay has never been interested in either, it just wants to distribute content to its users; a free world. Moreover do record labels actually make the music? Its their artists, and all the record labels do, is record, and then package the records and ship them to retail outlets, and advertise.


 It doesn't matter how much the record company makes. Its none of your business. Because they make money that makes them bad? I think because someone wants something free that makes them lazy. If they steal it that makes them a thief.

Guys no matter how you spin this its legal and ethically wrong. Intellectual property is still PROPERTY and you cannot take it without permission. These jackasses provided a service that gave you the tools to take whatever you wanted at any time. Look at it this way. If you come to my house and I have a box of car keys and I tell you these are the keys to an exotic car lot. Take how many you want because I THINK they charge to much for them. Guess who goes to jail with you as an accomplice when you steal that Lamborghini. Sure I can deny I gave you the keys but these guys bragged about it.


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Guys no matter how you spin this its legal and ethically wrong. Intellectual property is still PROPERTY and you cannot take it without permission. These jackasses provided a service that gave you the tools to take whatever you wanted at any time. Look at it this way. If you come to my house and I have a box of car keys and I tell you these are the keys to an exotic car lot. Take how many you want because I THINK they charge to much for them. Guess who goes to jail with you as an accomplice when you steal that Lamborghini. Sure I can deny I gave you the keys but these guys bragged about it.



It's true it's theft. For the sake of argument let's just say TPB deserves to be shut down. Now another 10 pop up. Why? Why does the RIAA and other keep pursuing this? What is there to gain? Imo they have been attempting to stop this since Napster, and look what good it's done. It's a difficult problem for sure, but a truly successful venture is one that adapts to change, not one that fights it tooth and nail. Satalite radio, itunes, the deceased Ruckus, these are progressive ways of moving into this realm. Fighting every torrent engine that comes up won't do anyone any good except perhaps alienate potential customers.

Money is to be made in concerts, TV, internet sites, and still in CDs and mp3s. But sooner or later they have to change the way they do business or it will only hurt more than help. One of the main reasons capitalism can be good is the consumer should control the market. If you want their business you do it their way.


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## Relayer (Apr 18, 2009)

Easy Rhino said:


> I would like to know how much the RIAA, MPAA and software companies have spent on lawyers, media coverage, etc. These pirate bay guys will go to jail, they will get out early and they will be unable to pay that massive fine.




It's not about the cost of this lawsuit. It's about setting a precedent. The Pirate Bay was an easy target. If they called themselves "The Torrent Depository" the plaintiffs might not have targeted them. Just by their name though they announced their intentions. This made it easier for the case to be made against them. Once the precedent has been made though, they can go to other sites that do the same thing and have them fined and put in jail (theoretically). Do this to 5 or 6 of the largest sites and you'll scare the others off.

What we need is for the RIAA and MPAA to be deemed monopolies and regulated as to not take advantage of their ability to basically charge whatever they please for movies and music. When* individuals* are making 10's of millions of dollars per movie I think it's excessive. If they were able to eliminate p2p file sharing how much more would they be able to charge?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 18, 2009)

farlex85 said:


> It's true it's theft. For the sake of argument let's just say TPB deserves to be shut down. Now another 10 pop up. Why? Why does the RIAA and other keep pursuing this? What is there to gain? Imo they have been attempting to stop this since Napster, and look what good it's done. It's a difficult problem for sure, but a truly successful venture is one that adapts to change, not one that fights it tooth and nail. Satalite radio, itunes, the deceased Ruckus, these are progressive ways of moving into this realm. Fighting every torrent engine that comes up won't do anyone any good except perhaps alienate potential customers.
> 
> Money is to be made in concerts, TV, internet sites, and still in CDs and mp3s. But sooner or later they have to change the way they do business or it will only hurt more than help. One of the main reasons capitalism can be good is the consumer should control the market. If you want their business you do it their way.


 Why? Because some people are lazy and cheap. The RIAA has every right to defend its property and should at all costs. Not you or anyone else has the right to take what is rightfully theirs. As for how they make their money you have no right to dictate how they do it. Unless its illegal.


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Why? Because some people are lazy and cheap. The RIAA has every right to defend its property and should at all costs. Not you or anyone else has the right to take what is rightfully theirs. As for how they make their money you have no right to dictate how they do it. Unless its illegal.



I'm not saying they don't have the right, I'm saying they are fighting a losing battle and they are stubbornly digging their own hole. I do have a say in how they make their money, that's what the consumer market is all about. If I don't like what they sell, I won't buy it. If enough are the same, they won't make any money. They can either try and find another way to make money or wither. 

You're an artist so I understand your stringent belief in creative rights, but I don't. I also don't believe in drug laws. I also don't believe in speed traps and various other aspects of the law. Do others have the "right" to prosecute me if I don't fall in line? Sure, but you can bet that doesn't change my mind about how it should be, and I'll push when I can and when the time is right.

As I said this isn't an easy fix, you can simply say well it's the law, but that never was good enough for me. And in this case, it isn't good enough for most.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 18, 2009)

farlex85 said:


> I'm not saying they don't have the right, I'm saying they are fighting a losing battle and they are stubbornly digging their own hole. I do have a say in how they make their money, that's what the consumer market is all about. If I don't like what they sell, I won't buy it. If enough are the same, they won't make any money. They can either try and find another way to make money or wither.
> 
> You're an artist so I understand your stringent belief in creative rights, but I don't. I also don't believe in drug laws. I also don't believe in speed traps and various other aspects of the law. Do others have the "right" to prosecute me if I don't fall in line? Sure, but you can bet that doesn't change my mind about how it should be, and I'll push when I can and when the time is right.
> 
> As I said this isn't an easy fix, you can simply say well it's the law, but that never was good enough for me. And in this case, it isn't good enough for most.



Well its a simple fix. A lot more simple then downloading a torrent and DL music from Pirate Bay. DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCT. You said it yourself. They will fail and a new business model will form. Until then however you can't break the law of ethics or government. 

Out of curiosity why do you think I do not have a right to protect whats mine? Do you?


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well its a simple fix. A lot more simple then downloading a torrent and DL music from Pirate Bay. DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCT. You said it yourself. They will fail and a new business model will form. Until then however you can't break the law of ethics or government.



Or, the law can be changed. This isn't an age old creed passed down for 100s of years. Music used to be a community thing, not something you could put ownership on. Only recently has it been put on such a pedestal. I think it's time to take it down. It's much prettier and varied down here.

I don't think creativity is something that can be owned. You can own a CD, you can own the computer, you can own the internet space, but you can't own the music. If I hum a tune that you wrote to myself, am I stealing it?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 18, 2009)

farlex85 said:


> Or, the law can be changed. This isn't an age old creed passed down for 100s of years. Music used to be a community thing, not something you could put ownership on. Only recently has it been put on such a pedestal. I think it's time to take it down. It's much prettier and varied down here.



Its still a community thing. You can play any song you want on your own guitar. However if you want to listen to the original composer then that will cost you. It always has. Do you think Beethoven's concerts were free? Have music record's ever been free? Because of the Internet artists lose all rights to their creations? Just because you can steal electronically now you want it made legal?


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its still a community thing. You can play any song you want on your own guitar. However if you want to listen to the original composer then that will cost you. It always has. Do you think Beethoven's concerts were free? Have music record's ever been free? Because of the Internet artists lose all rights to their creations? Just because you can steal electronically now you want it made legal?



Much of Beethoven's original work was simply played at parties and other gatherings, or for the church. This was common with music of the period. You had to pay to see a show, just as you must pay now. Most primitive music before then was almost always religious, and almost always a community participatory thing. Modern technology has brought in the idea of purchasing recorded mediums. Most of the profit went to those who distributed the recording (record companies). Now the internet allows for anyone and everyone to distribute music freely and easily, eliminating the need for a record company all together imo. You still have to pay to see the shows, but you shouldn't be expected to pay for the recordings. Should you pay me for reading this post? It's mine.


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## kciaccio (Apr 18, 2009)

They could have used a more low profile name for christ sake!! I am sure the name alone pissed them off. Probably why they got targeted sooner than other torrents.lol


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 18, 2009)

farlex85 said:


> Much of Beethoven's original work was simply played at parties and other gatherings, or for the church. This was common with music of the period. You had to pay to see a show, just as you must pay now. Most primitive music before then was almost always religious, and almost always a community participatory thing. Modern technology has brought in the idea of purchasing recorded mediums. Most of the profit went to those who distributed the recording (record companies). Now the Internet allows for anyone and everyone to distribute music freely and easily, eliminating the need for a record company all together imo. You still have to pay to see the shows, but you shouldn't be expected to pay for the recordings. Should you pay me for reading this post? It's mine.



So let me get this straight. Artists have no right to their work or how its used because its not tangible? Then a car mechanic has no rights to his repairs only parts. His time should be free. If you do data entry it should be done free. Chiefs should cook for free. Waitresses should wait for free. See my point?

Also no you posted this on a free forum. However if you wrote it in a book I would expect to pay to read your rhetoric


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## DailymotionGamer (Apr 18, 2009)

buy the new, share the oldies, thats my way of thinking. I remember warning supernova(another bittorrent site) years ago , but they did not listen, and look what happen with that.


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So let me get this straight. Artists have no right to their work or how its used because its not tangible? Then a car mechanic has no rights to his repairs only parts. His time should be free. If you do data entry it should be done free. Chiefs should cook for free. Waitresses should wait for free. See my point?
> 
> Also no you posted this on a free forum. However if you wrote it in a book I would expect to pay to read your rhetoric



Correct. Intellectual property is imo a farce. My ideas written on a forum are no more worth money than someones compositions (not saying they are equal, I would much rather pay for music than my rantings ). What, because they are "artists" their ideas are worth more than mine? You pay chefs and waitresses because they make your company money. Essentially the money comes from the ingredients that are bought, which are made into food and served. You pay them to complete these steps. CDs are what the money comes from in the music business, you pay artists to make them. When the artists can distribute their music themselves, the company is no longer needed. If the artist wants to charge, that's fine, many will pay. How much does it cost to put a song on the internet? How many need to pay you to turn a profit? Not many. 

The Pirate Bay was also free.........


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## pantherx12 (Apr 18, 2009)

The materials in question were created in a free world.

Its just relative and as I said earlier, depends on personal moral codes and ethics as well as social norms etc.

Its all just getting a bit silly, we have different opinions guys, its nature!


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## ShogoXT (Apr 18, 2009)

In my eyes I dont recognize the publishers anymore. The developers that are embracing digital distribution are prospering and laughing at the publishers. Its not our fault they keep trying to force their expensive craptastic CDs on us that are old tech by now. "You wont buy our CDs!?!?! SUE SUE SUE you must be evil". Along with that it seems they make alot of their money off of sueing their customers. By now its their business to sue people, not sell people things. 

EA: "Ahh we are dieing because of pirating, there is no way around it!"

Valve and Stardock: "lawl get with the program newbs, we are rolling with green without having to make any disks!"

The fact Valve and Stardock say such things (not worded like I worded it) instantly falsifies the publishers and EAs claims in general. If they were so right, why are there other people being successful!?!? I would believe them if they were all going into bankruptcy and all complaining all at once that its impossible for them to make a living, but its wrong. Game companies that are smart and switching to digital distro are successful. 

Quit punishing your customers for your own failures god damnit. Its just like giving AIGs retired CEOs bonuses. WORST BS EVER. NO REWARDS FOR YOUR FAILZ!


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

ShogoXT said:


> In my eyes I dont recognize the publishers anymore. The developers that are embracing digital distribution are prospering and laughing at the publishers. Its not our fault they keep trying to force their expensive craptastic CDs on us that are old tech by now. "You wont buy our CDs!?!?! SUE SUE SUE you must be evil". Along with that it seems they make alot of their money off of sueing their customers. By now its their business to sue people, not sell people things.
> 
> EA: "Ahh we are dieing because of pirating, there is no way around it!"
> 
> ...



Exactly, even if it is wrong what the consumer is doing, you are still better off finding a way to appeal to them and have them pay you than spending resources on telling them how bad they are. It's bad business 101.


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## troyrae360 (Apr 18, 2009)

Also check the will google be sued link. surley if the pirate bay gose down the so should google for giving us links to even worse eg kiddy porn etc....
+ google has an even bigger database of illegal downloads probley the biggest!!
really it shouldnt the ISP's be responsable for illegal internet traffic?

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?p=1329503#post1329503


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## pantherx12 (Apr 18, 2009)

No, users should be.

Its blaming company's and higher ups all the time that has caused horrible things like political correctness and OTT health and safety, and all the damn cameras and such like in the UK.

( well maybe not the last point)


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## farlex85 (Apr 18, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> No, users should be.
> 
> Its blaming company's and higher ups all the time that has caused horrible things like political correctness and OTT health and safety, and all the damn cameras and such like in the UK.
> 
> ( well maybe not the last point)



I agree with that as well, the user can be the only one held responsible for misusing something. Back to the whole punish everyone thing, it just doesn't work. In the case of The Pirate Bay though, their name and general bravado really was their own fault. That doesn't (shouldn't) hold up in a courtroom, but there's no need for that.


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## troyrae360 (Apr 18, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> No, users should be.
> 
> Its blaming company's and higher ups all the time that has caused horrible things like political correctness and OTT health and safety, and all the damn cameras and such like in the UK.
> 
> ( well maybe not the last point)



yes, users should be. But if the pirate bay gets done then so should google and isp's.


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## DaMulta (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Why? Because some people are lazy and cheap. The RIAA has every right to defend its property and should at all costs. Not you or anyone else has the right to take what is rightfully theirs. As for how they make their money you have no right to dictate how they do it. Unless its illegal.


I have youtube where everything is free
I can rip and make CDs all day everyday there


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## DaMulta (Apr 18, 2009)

http://www.bytelove.com/partners/kopimi-/-tpb/the-pirate-bay-premium-bamboo/prod_56.html


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## troyrae360 (Apr 18, 2009)

farlex85 said:


> Much of Beethoven's original work was simply played at parties and other gatherings, or for the church. This was common with music of the period. You had to pay to see a show, just as you must pay now. Most primitive music before then was almost always religious, and almost always a community participatory thing. Modern technology has brought in the idea of purchasing recorded mediums. Most of the profit went to those who distributed the recording (record companies). Now the internet allows for anyone and everyone to distribute music freely and easily, eliminating the need for a record company all together imo. You still have to pay to see the shows, but you shouldn't be expected to pay for the recordings. Should you pay me for reading this post? It's mine.





farlex85 said:


> Correct. Intellectual property is imo a farce. My ideas written on a forum are no more worth money than someones compositions (not saying they are equal, I would much rather pay for music than my rantings ). What, because they are "artists" their ideas are worth more than mine? You pay chefs and waitresses because they make your company money. Essentially the money comes from the ingredients that are bought, which are made into food and served. You pay them to complete these steps. CDs are what the money comes from in the music business, you pay artists to make them. When the artists can distribute their music themselves, the company is no longer needed. If the artist wants to charge, that's fine, many will pay. How much does it cost to put a song on the internet? How many need to pay you to turn a profit? Not many.
> 
> The Pirate Bay was also free.........



This is my Intellectual property!!
By reading this line of text you are entering into a legal bind. you now owe me $100 and a new Phenom 2 940
Just PM me to arrange payment and shiping

Thanks for reading


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## Triprift (Apr 18, 2009)

Why does this not suprise me the record companies are only interested in making money and anything that threatens that needs to be stopped. Bring us bands and singers i may actually want to listen to instead of the usual safe boring rubbish wich is rammed down are throats then i might fork out my dosh and the same goes for movies.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So let me get this straight. Artists have no right to their work or how its used because its not tangible? Then a car mechanic has no rights to his repairs only parts. His time should be free. If you do data entry it should be done free. Chiefs should cook for free. Waitresses should wait for free. See my point?
> 
> Also no you posted this on a free forum. However if you wrote it in a book I would expect to pay to read your rhetoric



In a close to perfect world I might have a bit more sympathy to your arguments. When CEO's and the politicians, who write the laws, which as you probably know and see are romping around in the same bed, what can consumers do but fight back in the only ways they can. Its a fine line called civil disobedience. Take a look around whats happening in the USA and start to connect the dots in the financial district.  Can you or I Hire a Lobbyist to fight on our behalf, no but corporations can and do. Years ago Lobbying was called Influence Peddling, which was against the law. Some politicians got together and watered the old laws down and gave them a new name Lobbyists. Gave them some new regulations, another name for that is Legalized Influence Peddling. So until I see some changes in Legalized Influence peddling, I will in some way do some civil disobedience. Because the way were headed it's all I have left.
 By the way TheMailMan78 did you hear that FaceBook is now laying claim to everything that is on their servers. Every sentence, picture, that you or anybody has uploaded. When Facebook first started did they have a disclaimer upfront telling you that what is put on their servers is copyrighted material that they now own. So if they decide to use your mugshot in an ad making money on their site you have no rights to it. TheMailMan78 is this what you call fair. Because the average person can't afford to fight this, they will do so and get away with it. Maybe with your legalistic point of view you might want to go and straighten Facebook out about the abuse of copyright.


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## Nick89 (Apr 18, 2009)

The judge was bribed.


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## ZoneDymo (Apr 18, 2009)

Nick89 said:


> The judge was bribed.




Now that is an insult kid, really.


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## ZoneDymo (Apr 18, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> In a close to perfect world I might have a bit more sympathy to your arguments. When CEO's and the politicians, who write the laws, which as you probably know and see are romping around in the same bed, what can consumers do but fight back in the only ways they can. Its a fine line called civil disobedience. Take a look around whats happening in the USA and start to connect the dots in the financial district.  Can you or I Hire a Lobbyist to fight on our behalf, no but corporations can and do. Years ago Lobbying was called Influence Peddling, which was against the law. Some politicians got together and watered the old laws down and gave them a new name Lobbyists. Gave them some new regulations, another name for that is Legalized Influence Peddling. So until I see some changes in Legalized Influence peddling, I will in some way do some civil disobedience. Because the way were headed it's all I have left.
> By the way TheMailMan78 did you hear that FaceBook is now laying claim to everything that is on their servers. Every sentence, picture, that you or anybody has uploaded. When Facebook first started did they have a disclaimer upfront telling you that what is put on their servers is copyrighted material that they now own. So if they decide to use your mugshot in an ad making money on their site you have no rights to it. TheMailMan78 is this what you call fair. Because the average person can't afford to fight this, they will do so and get away with it. Maybe with your legalistic point of view you might want to go and straighten Facebook out about the abuse of copyright.




That right yo, Fight the man dude, they want to controlle our minds!!
*blows another joint*

Seriously man, are you into conspiracy theories too?
This case its really simple

Guy makes something (HIS PRODUCT)
Other guys want what he made
Guys says ok, you can have it for 20 euro
Other guys say ok and that is that.

BUT NO, here comes pirate bay.

Guy makes something (HIS PRODUCT)
Other guys want what he made
Guys says ok, you can have it for 20 euro
Other guys say, no sorry we will simply take your product and wont give you anything for it but the finger and then I will help other guys steal you product even faster.


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## DaMulta (Apr 18, 2009)

Then google comes and says "Hey we can help everyone in the world find your torrent links so they don't even have to visit your site."


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## zCexVe (Apr 18, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> Then google comes and says "Hey we can help everyone in the world find your torrent links so they don't even have to visit your site."


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## zCexVe (Apr 18, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ok YOU think its extortionate. They think its fair. I think Lamborghini's are extortionate but I've never stole one because I felt that.
> They provide an unnecessary good. It has another name right now but it escapes me. Anyway you do not NEED it to live therefore they cannot "overcharge" you for it. Especially when listening to songs on the radio is free.
> 
> The platform they operate on is the Internet. No one is shutting that down. Also if this councils sole purpose was to commit crimes than yes. It should be shut down. FYI don't argue its not. They named the thing "Pirate Bay".
> ...



I'm just saying..If you steal a movie from piratebay it doesn't get lost.There are more copies.Steal a Lambo and it is gone.Only one can have it.Thats why it is limited and pricey.Can't you just lower the prices of Digital content?


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## btarunr (Apr 18, 2009)

troyrae360 said:


> This is my Intellectual property!!
> By reading this line of text you are entering into a legal bind. you now owe me $100 and a new Phenom 2 940
> Just PM me to arrange payment and shiping
> 
> Thanks for reading



Every post on this website is property of TechPowerUp, alone.


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## Triprift (Apr 18, 2009)

Meh Pirate bay lives thats all i care about.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 18, 2009)

ZoneDymo said:


> That right yo, Fight the man dude, they want to controlle our minds!!
> *blows another joint*
> 
> Seriously man, are you into conspiracy theories too?
> .



I find it ironic that when someone puts down a few facts that  some individuals find difficult to debate, out come the "conspiracy theories too" argument. Simplicity at the lowest level.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 18, 2009)

> I made a table just like the one I saw in an Ikea catalogue. I wasn't going to sell it... I just can't afford to buy Ikea products. But then a guy from Ikea showed up and said I copied their design in every way and now I am being sued.  Its hard to defend yourself when you are the little guy.



It didn't really happen but you see where I am going right?


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## laszlo (Apr 18, 2009)

is not the 1st time when they are sued

they can be convicted only when someone proves that the PB servers are hosting copyrighted materials which is not the case;they host only 100 kb files and only the names are indicating ...

to avoid future legal issues they can rename the torrent file to anything and people will still now the contents of it so is a waste of time for prosecution


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## ZoneDymo (Apr 18, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> I find it ironic that when someone puts down a few facts that  some individuals find difficult to debate, out come the "conspiracy theories too" argument. Simplicity at the lowest level.



I find it ironic that my simple post crushed you.
You dont have a leg to stand on.


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## btarunr (Apr 18, 2009)




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## Triprift (Apr 18, 2009)

How about you guys just relax for a bit please ok ya got different opinions no need to get into a full on argument over it.


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## W1zzard (Apr 18, 2009)

troyrae360 said:


> This is my Intellectual property!!
> By reading this line of text you are entering into a legal bind. you now owe me $100 and a new Phenom 2 940



sorry,



> By posting or submitting content to techPowerUp! Forums, you grant techPowerUp! Forums and its affiliates and licensees the right to use, reproduce, display, perform, adapt, modify, distribute, have distributed, and promote the content in any form, anywhere and for any purpose.



i love the "have distributed" part


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## troyrae360 (Apr 18, 2009)

W1zzard said:


> sorry,
> 
> 
> 
> i love the "have distributed" part



Haha feel free to use, reproduce, display, perform, adapt, modify, distribute, have distributed, and promote the content.


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## buggalugs (Apr 18, 2009)

Ya. i used to download stuff from pirate bay. Then i started walking with a limp and saying AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRHHHHHH  a lot so i stopped.


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## Mussels (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm throwing personal opinions below this paragraph. They dont reflect on TPU at all, and i'll still go deleting posts that mention 'piracy' otuside of this thread.

I personally, have torrented lots of 'pirated' material. I will give very valid reasons as to why.

1. You can not return games to stores in Australia, despite being able to do so with console games. While i'm techie enough to make any game WORK, there is nothing worse than paying $120 (yes, some games here are that expensive) only to find you aboslutely hate the game.
Its not like there is man demos these days - find me one for forged alliance, opposing fronts, tales of valor - oh wait those are expansion packs. how am i meant to know if i like them, if the ONLY option is to buy? (i love em and own em all legit, its an example). Then theres actuall full games - crysis, far cry 2, fallout 2 - all big hits, no demos i've come across. Imagine how the average joe feels with his dell - no idea if it will work, and no refund it if doesnt.

2. Some games are not available here anymore. Cant find them locally or online - an example is jagged alliance 2. I own all the JA games, but no matter what i did i couldnt buy the expansion pack for JA2 - so i downloaded it. It didnt run properly since i was on vista64, so i saved myself the money of buying it and having it not run.

Movies/TV shows/anime.

Anime: i'm not waiting 5 years for the shows to turn up here butchered with scenes missing, and terrible translations when i half speak japanese as it is. Its no different to watching em on TV in japan and having a TiVo, is it? If it was available for cheap download like they are doing in the USA with naruto at the moment, i would pay for them. If people can do it for free, a company can do it for $1 a download, etc.

Movies: Once a movies no longer at the local cinema, i have no real option but to wait til its available for sale or rental. In the meantime i download 700MB copies of a movie and see if i like it. if i dont, i delete it. If i do, as soon as its available on DVD i buy it.

TV shows. i can watch it for free here and record it on TiVo, or with my TV tuner card... how is it any different to torrent it? i'm not getting ads, but with a TiVo or a TV tuner with modern software they get cut out anyway.

Yes what i do technically breaks certain laws... but if there are everyday practices that have happened for decades with no legal retribution such as recording radio to cassette, TV to VHS, CD to MP3, TiVo, HDTV tuner cards and so on then there is legal grounds for me to say "hey - i am allowed to do this too"


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## PCpraiser100 (Apr 18, 2009)

These guys are stupid in their opinion of never paying the fine, talk about hating our system a little too much.

I am actually very glad that these guys have been arrested, however, I think they should've enforced The Pirate Bay to be shut down as well. Sure, I no there are a thousand other sites to kill and that leechers would be pissed that they didn't finish their download, but thats how it should be done after all the endless fussing over piracy.


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## DaveK (Apr 18, 2009)

I'd do the same. I know lots of people who pirate stuff, hell, almost every single person I know has downloaded illegally, be it 1 song or a full game. I mean, who hasn't bought a pirated movie from the guy walking door to door offering cheap movies?

When I got my old Dell I wanted to install The Sims 2 to see how much better it ran than my laptop, the 4 CD retail version wouldn't install, but worked fine on the laptop, so I went out and bought the DVD version. Both copies legit. I should have pirated it instead of wasting my money. Just last week I downloaded it cos I lost the disc.

I download Top Gear off the net, but it's not available to buy on DVD, if it was I'd buy it instantly. I watch all the latest episodes on TV anyway so I could easily just record them onto DVD or use the DVR that my cable company offers. Funny, they charge €5 per month to let you record stuff off the TV, yet we're the criminals? :shadedshu

If I had the money I'd gladly buy the movies as I like having hard copies of things rather than digital, it's not that I don't want to buy them, I just simply can't afford it.


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## iStink (Apr 18, 2009)

Mussels said:


> I'm throwing personal opinions below this paragraph. They dont reflect on TPU at all, and i'll still go deleting posts that mention 'piracy' otuside of this thread.
> 
> I personally, have torrented lots of 'pirated' material. I will give very valid reasons as to why.
> 
> ...


This is a good point.  A lot of stuff getting pirated is stuff you can't return.  Last I checked, you can't return DVD's, CD's, Software, PC Games, and EVEN CONSOLE GAMES to Best Buy.  I tried to exchange a gameboy game just a day after buying it and the asshole told me there was no way I could. (I had bought the wrong thing for my brother and he opened it before realizing it wasn't what he wanted.) I told him I could see why PC games couldn't be returned but a gameboy game should be allowed, it's common sense.  Then the prick turns my receipt over and points out in little tiny fine red print saying it couldn't be returned or exchanged and says "no, THATS common sense.  Bye" and he walked away.  I was pissed lol.



Mussels said:


> TV shows. i can watch it for free here and record it on TiVo, or with my TV tuner card... how is it any different to torrent it? i'm not getting ads, but with a TiVo or a TV tuner with modern software they get cut out anyway.



I heard the other side of this argument, and laughed my ass off.  Basically a professor at school said the difference in tivo'd tv shows and movies and pirated tv shows and movies is that when you tivo something on tv, you record the commercials too.  Sure you can fast forward through them, but apparently advertisers would much rather have someone fast forward through their ad at 16x and see it for a split second than for people not to see it at all.  Doesn't make sense at first, but then when you think about it maybe it does.  You fast forward through a wendy's commercial, the chance that you'll see a full screen jr bacon cheeseburger is pretty high, and that's still advertising. It's been put into your mind lol.


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## Mussels (Apr 18, 2009)

iStink said:


> I heard the other side of this argument, and laughed my ass off.  Basically a professor at school said the difference in tivo'd tv shows and movies and pirated tv shows and movies is that when you tivo something on tv, you record the commercials too.  Sure you can fast forward through them, but apparently advertisers would much rather have someone fast forward through their ad at 16x and see it for a split second than for people not to see it at all.  Doesn't make sense at first, but then when you think about it maybe it does.  You fast forward through a wendy's commercial, the chance that you'll see a full screen jr bacon cheeseburger is pretty high, and that's still advertising. It's been put into your mind lol.



I've definately seen it in TV tuner software and im confident i saw it on a TiVo box too - the ability to actually not record the commercials, or automatically delete them once the show is recorded.


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## DrPepper (Apr 18, 2009)

Mussels said:


> I've definately seen it in TV tuner software and im confident i saw it on a TiVo box too - the ability to actually not record the commercials, or automatically delete them once the show is recorded.



My television in my room turns off when commercials come on then comes back on when the show starts.


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## Mussels (Apr 18, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> My television in my room turns off when commercials come on then comes back on when the show starts.



well there you go, you are now a pirate.


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## DrPepper (Apr 18, 2009)

Mussels said:


> well there you go, you are now a pirate.



Most people change the channel when ads come on and change back just as the show is starting so the majority of us are pirates.


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## h3llb3nd4 (Apr 18, 2009)

damn! I am a pirate^I do that all the time


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## ArmoredCavalry (Apr 18, 2009)

Dang!!!! Where am I supposed to download copyrighted materials on the internet now!!!

These sly, sly record companies.... 

Ya know what, I'm just gonna have to start paying for all my music, they have forced me into this.... I have no choice now...


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## mtosev (Apr 18, 2009)

haha becaouse of thepiratebay the piracy rate in Slovenia is 70%. < BSA assesment


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## KainXS (Apr 18, 2009)

mailman, if you think reviews are always right then thats sad, big companies pay alot of money to many reviewers to give their products a nice bump in their review to sell them

everyone has a different viewpoint on things, someone can tell you something is bad and when you play it, its awesome

and based on what you said its okay for the buyer to be ripped off and the seller to get away with it, and its not ok vice versa either, so why should that be ok.

thats what you said right

if your sitting back and thinking you have never pirated something your a fool, everyone has done it whether by accident or purposely, so why not sue everybody.
This has always been a problem and will probably always be a problem, buying something without testing it yourself is a gamble, whether it be a car, a radio, or a 10 dollar game, and its a game the seller won't lose, im not saying piracy is good, its definitely bad, but there can be some "situations". where the buyer gets burned bad.



this thread is goin straight to hell


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## Haytch (Apr 19, 2009)

The war against Piracy, is like the war against drugs.

The Pirate Bay website should be shutdown, until its cleaned up of all existing pirate links and everyone involved should be allowed to walk, without a fine.

Im sure that random deletion of pirated software/games/music etc etc in the past will help their case in their future as proof that they attempted to fight piracy which was out of their control.

I see this as a precident case where some laws will be altered. Just another way for them to tie us down.  It would be a sad day when torrents die.

Piracy is against the law. Sharing freeware isnt.


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## Mussels (Apr 19, 2009)

Haytch said:


> The war against Piracy, is like the war against drugs.
> 
> The Pirate Bay website should be shutdown, until its cleaned up of all existing pirate links and everyone involved should be allowed to walk, without a fine.
> 
> ...



Due to laws about digital data, its legal for one person and illegal for the next.
If i own a game its legal for me to download a no-CD crack and ISO image, because i am entitlted to a working backup of my purchase... however its not legal to someone who doesnt own it.

basically if they do block this they'll be taking on a lot of legit users, and thats bad for business.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> In a close to perfect world I might have a bit more sympathy to your arguments. When CEO's and the politicians, who write the laws, which as you probably know and see are romping around in the same bed, what can consumers do but fight back in the only ways they can. Its a fine line called civil disobedience. Take a look around whats happening in the USA and start to connect the dots in the financial district.  Can you or I Hire a Lobbyist to fight on our behalf, no but corporations can and do. Years ago Lobbying was called Influence Peddling, which was against the law. Some politicians got together and watered the old laws down and gave them a new name Lobbyists. Gave them some new regulations, another name for that is Legalized Influence Peddling. So until I see some changes in Legalized Influence peddling, I will in some way do some civil disobedience. Because the way were headed it's all I have left.
> By the way TheMailMan78 did you hear that FaceBook is now laying claim to everything that is on their servers. Every sentence, picture, that you or anybody has uploaded. When Facebook first started did they have a disclaimer upfront telling you that what is put on their servers is copyrighted material that they now own. So if they decide to use your mugshot in an ad making money on their site you have no rights to it. TheMailMan78 is this what you call fair. Because the average person can't afford to fight this, they will do so and get away with it. Maybe with your legalistic point of view you might want to go and straighten Facebook out about the abuse of copyright.



Ok on your first point about CEOs and politicians in the same bed together is nothing new. That will never change. Now you doing the good fight by stealing is very honorable but stealing is stealing. Again music, games, movies etc are all a luxury and are not applicable to the laws a gouging. You are stealing something you do not need. There is nothing honorable about that. If you were taking bread for poor family's from the evil MGM studios than you can use my house to store it in. As for the Facebook rule I think its 100% far. People should read user agreements before they agree. Sorry but I have no sympathy for its "clients".



zCexVe said:


> I'm just saying..If you steal a movie from piratebay it doesn't get lost.There are more copies.Steal a Lambo and it is gone.Only one can have it.Thats why it is limited and pricey.Can't you just lower the prices of Digital content?



9 bucks for an album on itunes is plenty cheap for an artist that spent years developing the skill to produce their music for you to play hundreds of times. As for the Lambo comparison my argument is 100% valid. Just because something is not "tangible" doesn't mean its not property. I mean your credit isn't tangible is it? Would you be upset if I stole it?



Mussels said:


> I'm throwing personal opinions below this paragraph. They don't reflect on TPU at all, and I'll still go deleting posts that mention 'piracy' outside of this thread.
> 
> I personally, have torrented lots of 'pirated' material. I will give very valid reasons as to why.
> 
> ...



I'm going to adress each of your points putting the thought aside you are a mod 

1. As a gamer I know where you are coming from on this. You can't return games once they are open from the store. Once you own them you really OWN them. That sucks. So as a younger person I could see the point of piracy. I've bought my fair share of garbage. However over the years I've learned a few things. One thing I've learned is games go down in price. I got Prey for 5 bucks. I only gambled 5 bucks on that one and it was awesome. Far Cry 2 I only paid 15 bucks for. It was well worth 15 in my book but I think I would have been disappointed if I had paid 50. Moving on to the games not working and DLing CD cracks and such I don't see a point. I never EVER had a game that just stopped working. If it did it was something I did on my end. Not the game.

2. Ebay. As for the game not running in x64 then you should have known better  Some old games run like shit. You know that.

3. Movies/TV shows/anime. 
Anime: Again I feel your pain on this one. However just because you don't "feel" like waiting doesn't give you the right to steal. You haven't bitched about this but a lot of jokers do on this forum. People complain about the government taking to long get in a certain service into the country. So they pirate. You know what I see? Business opportunity. Why doesn't someone start a service that imports Anime into your country? You could retire a millionaire before 40  Anyway back on topic. You are stealing instead of waiting or taking the initiative to make it happen legally. You are being lazy.

TV Shows: These things are paid for by commercials. Cutting the commercials out doesn't matter to much. Thats not stealing because its a free service. Its the same thing as recording off of the radio.

Movies: So just because you do not feel like waiting to rent something you steal it. You justify this by saying "if I like it I buy it".  Come one man. Not only is this not having any patience its again STEALING.



KainXS said:


> mailman, if you think reviews are always right then thats sad, big companies pay alot of money to many reviewers to give their products a nice bump in their review to sell them
> 
> everyone has a different viewpoint on things, someone can tell you something is bad and when you play it, its awesome
> 
> ...



Reviewers are supported by ads. So yeah I can see your point about them being biased. However do you think the reviews on TPU are biased? Do you think the users on this forum are biased? Time has a away of revealing a products true identity. Buying anything the day it comes out is a gamble. Waiting and educating yourself isn't. So this for an argument for pro pirating is kinda null.

Me a pirate?!? Never  Man I didn't used to pay for jack. You have never met a bigger ex-thief. However once I realized how my own hard work was being stolen and I didn't see a dime I stopped. Hard work effects the mind in odd ways let me tell ya


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## Mussels (Apr 19, 2009)

Mailman: your arguments and mine are the main two to this whole thing.

Basically, there is no clear, definitive answer... thats why its a morally grey area without any definitive answer.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Mussels said:


> Mailman: your arguments and mine are the main two to this whole thing.
> 
> Basically, there is no clear, definitive answer... thats why its a morally grey area without any definitive answer.



I find nothing grey about stealing.


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## Mussels (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I find nothing grey about stealing.



depending on the country and the situation, its not always stealing.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Mussels said:


> depending on the country and the situation, its not always stealing.



Exactly what situation warrants the theft of music, games, luxury's in general?


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## Mussels (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Exactly what situation warrants the theft of music, games, luxury's in general?



If you own a music CD, in many countries you are legally entitled to a working backup. Due to copy protection on that disk it may not be possible to directly copy it yourself, or you may not know how - so you download it.

Its theft for the person who doesnt own the disk, and a legal right for the ones who do.


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## TechnicalFreak (Apr 19, 2009)

What can I say.. we have strange laws here in sweden. Actually, here is a good example:
You wake up in the middle of the night, because someone is breaking in to your home. Trying to protect your family you say break a leg of the burglar.. What happens is that the burglar will sue _you_ for breaking his leg. What they want is you to die, or somehow call the cops. And even a cop can be sued for shooting at a burglar without a good reason.

If you find an english translated book over the swedish laws, read it - and you will laugh.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Mussels said:


> If you own a music CD, in many countries you are legally entitled to a working backup. Due to copy protection on that disk it may not be possible to directly copy it yourself, or you may not know how - so you download it.
> 
> Its theft for the person who doesnt own the disk, and a legal right for the ones who do.



Then they should have called it "Backup Bay".  Come on man you know damn well what kind of service they were offering.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 19, 2009)

of all people i thought youd be the one to commit suicide when pirate bay went down

you talk about fapping in public and are against piracy? wtf


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## farlex85 (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> 9 bucks for an album on itunes is plenty cheap for an artist that spent years developing the skill to produce their music for you to play hundreds of times. As for the Lambo comparison my argument is 100% valid. Just because something is not "tangible" doesn't mean its not property. I mean your credit isn't tangible is it? Would you be upset if I stole it?



Credit is absolutely tangible, and actually, it isn't even really yours. It essentially belongs to the various financial institutions who check it to see whether they should lend to you or not. But really, you kind of misinterpreted what I said, tangibility is only part of the equation. 

Music is another way of talking, another expression of self, another medium with which one can extend oneself (and any other various interpretation you may have of music). Now, some people pay to see that in certain circumstances (shows, seminars, newspapers, art galleries, ect). Newspapers are a great example, newspapers are starting to go under b/c of the internet, people can get what they get from newspapers for free on the internet. Why? B/c the need for print stations, paper boys, paper, ect. is no longer needed, hence the cost is no longer the same. Some of the writers on the internet are still paid for their services, some do it for free. The companies that make newspapers must now think of new alternatives to making money (perhaps the new device amazon has will be one), but they can't just fight everyone saying don't read that for free pay me for it.


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## Mussels (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then they should have called it "Backup Bay".  Come on man you know damn well what kind of service they were offering.



well, i dont go to pirate bay anyway. its full of fakes, viruses, and other crap.


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## DaMulta (Apr 19, 2009)

Mussels said:


> well, i dont go to pirate bay anyway. its full of fakes, viruses, and other crap.



BS I have never one time had a virus from them, I rarely get any fakes. I get more fakes with other sites.

Besides name another torrent site that uses SSL?

I loves piratebay!


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## Mussels (Apr 19, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> BS I have never one time had a virus from them, I rarely get any fakes. I get more fakes with other sites.
> 
> Besides name another torrent site that uses SSL?
> 
> I loves piratebay!



well, naming my torrent sites would get me banned  gotta live private trackers.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 19, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> BS I have never one time had a virus from them, I rarely get any fakes. I get more fakes with other sites.
> 
> Besides name another torrent site that uses SSL?
> 
> I loves piratebay!



Well mininova.org uses RSS which is very handy.. 



Mussels said:


> well, i dont go to pirate bay anyway. its full of fakes, viruses, and other crap.



Virus alerts are false positives and are only from over-sensitive heuristics due to a similar hash check in certain code like trainers, patches, and keygens that have certain properties.


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## elite.ire (Apr 19, 2009)

its bs imo.. they were conviceted with something redicilious like accesory to providing copyright infringement services or something ? :S, tpb is just a torrent serch engine they dont host the torrents themselves so there not actually doing anything illegal in that respect...


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 19, 2009)

elite.ire said:


> its bs imo.. they were conviceted with something redicilious like accesory to providing copyright infringement services or something ? :S, tpb is just a torrent serch engine they dont host the torrents themselves so there not actually doing anything illegal in that respect...



Welcome to TPU and nice special edition case you got there.


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## Perra (Apr 19, 2009)

BS indeed but it'll be at least another 4-5 years before there's an end to this case.

It's fun to see tpb still going strong though.


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

I think after these last few films have downloaded im going to stop torrenting for a while, theres a massive crack down happening in the UK and I cant afford a £1000 fine.

I hope TPB rise above this though, knowing them they'll get away unscathed.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 19, 2009)

so they got convicted right? forget it they probly watch it all the time, my isp probably knows i torrent every now and again
i know some people that all they have is torrented cds and movies if they had to pay for it all on top of a fine theyd be broke


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## DrPepper (Apr 19, 2009)

MilkyWay said:


> so they got convicted right? forget it they probly watch it all the time, my isp probably knows i torrent every now and again
> i know some people that all they have is torrented cds and movies if they had to pay for it all on top of a fine theyd be broke



They were convicted but they aren't in jail or anything they are going to appeal. If anything google or the search engines should be sued to for the same charges since they link you to torrents as well.


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

wasnt the fine initially over $20,000,000? I heard that the fine has been reduced to around $2,000,000 but they have said that even if they had that kind of money, they wouldnt pay the fine 

What a kick in the nuts to highly priced games, DVD's and CD's.


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

There are certain things I use torrents for, Pre-release stuff for example. I wouldnt be on build 7077 of Windows 7 without ThePirateBay.

But also I recently downloaded a particular game that I was right ready to buy, for the simple fact that the developers have a set number of activations on the product, before it is rendered utterly useless. Being a gamer and computer enthusiast I am constantly reformating and swapping out hardware so I would have been forced to download a copy anyway.

I download albums so that I can listen to them before I buy them, I dont pirate per say, only in circumstances I dont deem stealing, or like above, where I dont have a choice.

The problem comes based on your idea of piracy and stealing, hence why there are nearly 200 reponses to this article, in my view however, the fact remains that ThePirateBay does not store anything illegal, they mearly provide the way to do so.

IMO this is greed on the parts of record labels and developers, etc. And them seeing an opportunity, imagine how far this could be taken, like as has been previously noted, ban manufacturers of knives, guns, cars.

Maybe ban free will, where will it end?


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

^ +1


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> There are certain things I use torrents for, Pre-release stuff for example. I wouldn't be on build 7077 of Windows 7 without ThePirateBay.
> 
> But also I recently downloaded a particular game that I was right ready to buy, for the simple fact that the developers have a set number of activations on the product, before it is rendered utterly useless. Being a gamer and computer enthusiast I am constantly reformating and swapping out hardware so I would have been forced to download a copy anyway.
> 
> ...



Well the whole reason why developers are going down the route of limited installs is because of places like Pirate Bay. You want to stop this trend? Don't buy their games and at the same time don't steal them ether. By doing that you are justifying their motive.

I also like your statement "where I don't have a choice.". I laughed at that one. What do you mean you don't have a choice? Does someone have a gun to your head forcing you to download illegal software? No. You make that choice yourself.

You point about cars, guns, and knives is really off point. Cars are not meant to kill. It happens by accident. Guns and knives are tools that can or cannot be used for good or evil. Sometimes they are just their to provide food. SO there is your argument. You only use it for backups and to try before you buy. Does that make it any less illegal? Do you ALWAYS buy the CD once you DL it? Really? The Pirate Bay however has a sole purpose. To steal. If it didn't then why call it "The Pirate Bay"? A better analogy would be to call The Pirate Bay a drug dealer. I mean its not doing the drugs. They are just providing a service. You are the junkie that is upset your supply of goods is going to be cut off. Or were you doing drugs to stick it to "The man" 

As for the developer and record labels being greedy thats not something I subscribe to. They are making money like anyone else and the more you steal the more they will charge to make up for its loses. I also suspect you have never had anything you worked really hard on stolen.


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

My point about not having a choice is that if I choose to want to play that game, I feel the devs have not given me a choice but to download it because of their ridiculous DRM. I was going to buy it if not for that.

And dont forget not everything on ThePirateBay is illegal, it is just a service. Whereas Drug Dealing is in fact Illegal in most countries.



TheMailMan78 said:


> I also suspect you have never had anything you worked really hard on stolen.



If only that were true


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> My point about not having a choice is that if I choose to want to play that game, I feel the devs have not given me a choice but to download it because of their ridiculous DRM. I was going to buy it if not for that.
> 
> And don't forget not everything on ThePirateBay is illegal, it is just a service. Whereas Drug Dealing is in fact Illegal in most countries.



Oh so its ok you steal because you feel the developer isn't fair in providing you the entertainment you want in the fashion you want it. Interesting view point.



alexp999 said:


> If only that were true


Then why do you steal from other people?


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## Relayer (Apr 19, 2009)

Was/Is there actually a law on the books for ‘assisting in making copyright content available’? I've never heard of it before. What are the statutes and penalties? It sounds more like a civil case than a case to be heard in a court of law.


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Oh so its ok you steal because you feel the developer isn't fair in providing you the entertainment you want in the fashion you want it. Interesting view point.
> 
> 
> Then why do you steal from other people?



Would it make you feel better if I bought the game AND downloaded it?


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

Ignore him alex, he likes to stir, he's obviously the internet police officer here on TPU - I bet your hands arent so clean mail, Id be willing to bet you have downloaded something illegally in your past, so stop giving other members such a hard time.


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

I dont mind,

But can I also say, to me its a bit of a stand to the Developers. If they see me happily buying DRM and activation-less games, but "pirating" DRM and activation limit games, then hopefully they will stop and realise something.

Hell, it worked for the Music industry, I now source all my music legally as its DRM free


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Would it make you feel better if I bought the game AND downloaded it?



In a perfect world yes. But the sad part is services like TPB are designed and setup for theft. For every "honest" person on TPB there is 1000 thieves. So services like TPB should be shut down until a "legit" way of downloading backups is established.



kyle2020 said:


> Ignore him alex, he likes to stir, he's obviously the Internet police officer here on TPU - I bet your hands aren't so clean mail, Id be willing to bet you have downloaded something illegally in your past, so stop giving other members such a hard time.



Dude I ain't starting trouble. I'm just taking this opportunity to talk some sense into you guys. As for my "Hands being clean" I suggest you read the last paragraph of this post.


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

See my post above, but it doesnt matter on the system implemented, people will still abuse it, I for one love GameCopyWorld, however I have only ever used it on games I legally own. If it wasnt for that site I wouldnt be able to play Crysis.


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## pantherx12 (Apr 19, 2009)

I constantly loose my game cds and such like, if it was not for these sites I could not fire up Total Annihilation and completely destroy the Core forces!


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

I cant play crysis warhead due to the install limit - so people arent allowed to reformat harddrives / invest in new motherboards? So what did I do? Downloaded a cracked .exe. OMGOSH! The world cries about it. But, no, they shouldnt, because I purchased the game legally, I have the disc, I have the activation code, its just because pathetic "Anti piracy" systems decide you install a game "x" number of times and thats your limit - Im sorry but if I buy a game, its mine and I own control over it, and I should be able to install it however many damn times I want.


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## Relayer (Apr 19, 2009)

I have a scenario. Another review site breaks an NDA or someone in China sneaks a new vid card off of the production line and leaks a review out. If TPU reports on their findings and provides a link are they guilty of breaking their own NDA? Are they ‘assisting in making <insert legally correct word> content available’?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

The activation limit isn't an argument. Just contact the developer and register your game. Problem solved.



Relayer said:


> I have a scenario. Another review site breaks an NDA or someone in China sneaks a new vid card off of the production line and leaks a review out. If TPU reports on their findings and provides a link are they guilty of breaking their own NDA? Are they ‘assisting in making <insert legally correct word> content available’?


 I have no F#$king idea.


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

Of course its an arguement, why should I have to go out my way because we arent allowed free usage of products we have legally purchased?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

kyle2020 said:


> Of course its an arguement, why should I have to go out my way because we arent allowed free usage of products we have legally purchased?



You do have free usage. However you also agreed to the EULA when you installed it the first time.


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## farlex85 (Apr 19, 2009)

Relayer said:


> I have a scenario. Another review site breaks an NDA or someone in China sneaks a new vid card off of the production line and leaks a review out. If TPU reports on their findings and provides a link are they guilty of breaking their own NDA? Are they ‘assisting in making <insert legally correct word> content available’?



Is that a law?


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

And do you honestly sit and read page after page of size 8 font? Of course you dont, you click accept and get into your game.

/unsubscribed, im fed up already haha.


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## Relayer (Apr 19, 2009)

kyle2020 said:


> I cant play crysis warhead due to the install limit - so people arent allowed to reformat harddrives / invest in new motherboards? So what did I do? Downloaded a cracked .exe. OMGOSH! The world cries about it. But, no, they shouldnt, because I purchased the game legally, I have the disc, I have the activation code, its just because pathetic "Anti piracy" systems decide you install a game "x" number of times and thats your limit - Im sorry but if I buy a game, its mine and I own control over it, and I should be able to install it however many damn times I want.




I agree with you 100%. I also feel the same with operating systems too. Once I buy a computer with windows installed on it, why do I have to buy another copy of windows for my next PC? As long as I'm only using one PC at a time (ie the old PC is no longer in use) why do I have to pay again for an operating system I've already paid for?


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## farlex85 (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You do have free usage. However you also agreed to the EULA when you installed it the first time.



Again you keep for some reason going back to the law when really the law is in this case impractical. Stipulations should not be so numerous they would require you longer to read than to play the game. 3 simple bullet points ought to cover it, and it should be the law.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

kyle2020 said:


> And do you honestly sit and read page after page of size 8 font? Of course you don't, you click accept and get into your game.
> 
> /unsubscribed, im fed up already haha.



So I guess its the developers fault you don't like to read.  Anyway they make it pretty clear about the install limit in most games. And if you happen to miss it you can easily contact the developer and register your game. However I guess being lazy you would be pissed the Pirate Bay is being closed.

FYI I aint saying your lazy.


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You do have free usage. However you also agreed to the EULA when you installed it the first time.



The problem comes with the fact that such restrictions are not made clear upon purchase of the item, say you do read the EULA and disagree. You wont be able to get your money back as nearly everywhere refuses returns on games.

And have you ever tried contacting a dev to get the activation limit lifted?


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So I guess its the developers fault you don't like to read.  Anyway they make it pretty clear about the install limit in most games. And if you happen to miss it you can easily contact the developer and register your game. *However I guess being lazy you would be pissed the Pirate Bay is being closed*.
> 
> FYI I aint saying your lazy.



Excuse me? Being lazy means not wanting to sit for around an hour reading page after page of fine print, when the producers of the game could have simply printed a page off in the manual that has roughly 5 bullet points stating what you can / cannot do?

Are you honestly telling me now that you sit and read the terms / agreements of every single game you purchase? Thought not. Stop being a hypocrit.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

No I don't read the EULA. However I don't justify theft ether because I don't read the EULA. I simply contact the developer and regester my game. Doing anything else (Going to TPB) is being lazy.



alexp999 said:


> The problem comes with the fact that such restrictions are not made clear upon purchase of the item, say you do read the EULA and disagree. You wont be able to get your money back as nearly everywhere refuses returns on games.
> 
> And have you ever tried contacting a dev to get the activation limit lifted?


 Yes I have and it was a bitch. However it was the right thing to do.


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

Did I even say I used TBP for this .exe? Re read, slow down.

You still havent retaliated to my previous question either, are you feeling ill? off the pace a bit?


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## elite.ire (Apr 19, 2009)

well tbh, if it wernt for torrent sites then alot of films/bands/games wouldnt be as popular as they are atm and thus would have less sales, ive recomened numerious games films and bands to my friends from me playing.listening.watching them after i downloaded them from torrent sites and my freinds have then gone out and purchased albums/films/games or rented them, and if i do find a game i really love that ive downloaded from a torrent i will usually buy the game full retail after... same with films and some albums...


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## hat (Apr 19, 2009)

So what do you do when your activations run out? Just keep spending $50 again and again on a game you already paid for? Or should you just get a cracked exe, which is better anyways because it's one less disc to swap out, and enjoy what you paid for once already?

I always find some way of circumventing the cd protection. Either I find a nocd crack or I make an image of the disc and mount it in alcohol 52%


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

kyle2020 said:


> Did I even say I used TBP for this .exe? Re read, slow down.
> 
> You still havent retaliated to my previous question either, are you feeling ill? off the pace a bit?



What is this then?



kyle2020 said:


> I cant play crysis warhead due to the install limit - so people arent allowed to reformat harddrives / invest in new motherboards? So what did I do? Downloaded a cracked .exe. OMGOSH! The world cries about it. But, no, they shouldnt, because I purchased the game legally, I have the disc, I have the activation code, its just because pathetic "Anti piracy" systems decide you install a game "x" number of times and thats your limit - Im sorry but if I buy a game, its mine and I own control over it, and I should be able to install it however many damn times I want.



You downloaded a cracked .exe from a TPB like service. You took the lazy way out thus justifying the install limit.

Also where did you ask if I was feeling ill? I don't get it?



hat said:


> So what do you do when your activations run out? Just keep spending $50 again and again on a game you already paid for? Or should you just get a cracked exe, which is better anyways because it's one less disc to swap out, and enjoy what you paid for once already?
> 
> I always find some way of circumventing the cd protection. Either I find a nocd crack or I make an image of the disc and mount it in alcohol 52%



Hey Hat. Nice Avy 

Anyway you never have to buy the game again. Read a few posts up for the legit way to do things.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 19, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> They were convicted but they aren't in jail or anything they are going to appeal. If anything google or the search engines should be sued to for the same charges since they link you to torrents as well.



exactly


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## alexp999 (Apr 19, 2009)

IMO, I still see it as boycotting the system, when Devs see that people will pay for DRM free but crack DRM games, I would hope they would see sense.

Like I say, I know source all my Music legally due to the way the music industry has gone DRM free, not locked out wma files, and no more encrypted Audio CDs

Plus like I keep trying to say, TPB isnt all illegal software. Hell most of it is legal other than a tiny file which negates the need for a cd key.


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 19, 2009)

I do have to say if it wasn't for torrents i believe Metal would be a lot bigger than it is now. Torrents can help promote bands though, it does cost money to make cds and distribute them. Torrents circumvent this.


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## kyle2020 (Apr 19, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No I don't read the EULA. However I don't justify theft ether because I don't read the EULA. I simply contact the developer and regester my game. *Doing anything else (Going to TPB) is being lazy.*



I didnt say I had used TPB, neither did I suggest it was a similar service. Did I even mention TPB in that paragraph? no. Slow down man, your going so fast your tripping over your own feet.

I asked, no I guaranteed that your not the "Anti torrent saint" that you seem to be making out - be 100% brutally honest with us here - have you ever downloaded software, music, whatever, illegally?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 19, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> IMO, I still see it as boycotting the system, when Devs see that people will pay for DRM free but crack DRM games, I would hope they would see sense.
> 
> Like I say, I know source all my Music legally due to the way the music industry has gone DRM free, not locked out wma files, and no more encrypted Audio CDs
> 
> Plus like I keep trying to say, TPB isn't all illegal software. Hell most of it is legal other than a tiny file which negates the need for a cd key.



You call it boycotting and I call it justifying their fears and breaking the law. The bottom line is there is all this static about installation limits because of piracy. Will it stop piracy? No. But stealing in protest does nothing but put more limits on legit users.



kyle2020 said:


> I didnt say I had used TPB, neither did I suggest it was a similar service. Did I even mention TPB in that paragraph? no. Slow down man, your going so fast your tripping over your own feet.
> 
> I asked, no I guaranteed that your not the "Anti torrent saint" that you seem to be making out - be 100% brutally honest with us here - have you ever downloaded software, music, whatever, illegally?



I don't think you are reading all my posts all the way. I already answered your question about me pirating things. Also you said you DL a cracked .exe. Weather you downloaded off of TPB or somewhere else is a null point.


----------



## farlex85 (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Will it stop piracy? No. .



Not only will it not, it only encourages it (some people do steal ONLY because of DRM, and I'm not sure anyone who's even somewhat computer literate (those who would play PC games) would have any problem going around it). You can preach all you want about your morality and the law and the RIAA can sue all they want and developers can load all the DRMs they want but IT ISN'T WORKING. And to stubbornly say that well, that's not working so let's do some more of it, is just silly. New solutions need to be found.


----------



## alexp999 (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You call it boycotting and I call it justifying their fears and breaking the law. The bottom line is there is all this static about installation limits because of piracy. Will it stop piracy? No. But stealing in protest does nothing but put more limits on legit users.



Thats your opinion, which I respect, but like I keep saying it worked for the Music Industry and I believe in time it will work for the Game Industry.

What will get more notice, letters and emails that they can delete asking them to stop DRM? Or a nice big wad of money they never got?

I can see this argument going round in circles, with you having a reponse and counter to everything everybody writes. I am going to agree to disagree with you, I have said my piece and will only return to this thread to moderate it.

At the end of the day, you will never stop Piracy, but like record labels have, companies need to go the right way about reducing it, a reasonable price and its hassle free, I'm happy (aka Music Industry),IMO slapping DRM all over something to a hacker/pirate is like a RED rag to a bull.

alexp999 out


----------



## farlex85 (Apr 20, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> T
> I can see this argument going round in circles, with you having a reponse and counter to everything everybody writes. I am going to agree to disagree with you, I have said my piece and will only return to this thread to moderate it.



He hasn't responded to my last 3 or 4 posts, but I'm not sure if that's for lack of retort or exasperation w/ perceived ignorance.  It shouldn't be too hard to moderate, pretty good convo so far.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Apr 20, 2009)

Or the poor guy is getting hammered by the majority and has no time to answer everyone


----------



## farlex85 (Apr 20, 2009)

WhiteLotus said:


> Or the poor guy is getting hammered by the majority and has no time to answer everyone



I think he's done w/ me on account of my intellectual property views (I got too radical ), but yeah, it's tough to take on everyone else. If you're in a business and everyone else is you're customer you probably won't do so good. But if you can adjust to demands and still find a way to make money, you're golden.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 20, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Thats your opinion, which I respect, but like I keep saying it worked for the Music Industry and I believe in time it will work for the Game Industry.
> 
> What will get more notice, letters and emails that they can delete asking them to stop DRM? Or a nice big wad of money they never got?
> 
> ...


 Theft is not my opinion. What you said you do is breaking the law. I just want to make that clear. There is no justification for it. But Ill leave you to your own poisons 



farlex85 said:


> Not only will it not, it only encourages it (some people do steal ONLY because of DRM, and I'm not sure anyone who's even somewhat computer literate (those who would play PC games) would have any problem going around it). You can preach all you want about your morality and the law and the RIAA can sue all they want and developers can load all the DRMs they want but IT ISN'T WORKING. And to stubbornly say that well, that's not working so let's do some more of it, is just silly. New solutions need to be found.


 New solutions need to be found. I agree. Install limits are just annoying. However in no way does it justify theft.



farlex85 said:


> He hasn't responded to my last 3 or 4 posts, but I'm not sure if that's for lack of retort or exasperation w/ perceived ignorance.  It shouldn't be too hard to moderate, pretty good convo so far.


 Read above. There ya happy 



WhiteLotus said:


> Or the poor guy is getting hammered by the majority and has no time to answer everyone



Meh I knew that going in to this. Some fight the good fight by theft. I fight it via the pen.  I just hope no one here thinks I'm being a troll. I'm pretty sure you guys know me better than that.


----------



## farlex85 (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> New solutions need to be found. I agree. Install limits are just annoying. However in no way does it justify theft.
> 
> Read above. There ya happy



Yes, I am. 



TheMailMan78 said:


> Meh I knew that going in to this. Some fight the good fight by theft. I fight it via the pen.  I just hope no one here thinks I'm being a troll. I'm pretty sure you guys know me better than that.



What good is a thread like this if there isn't a point counter-point, I'm glad someone takes that side. Some tend to say I don't want any part of arguing and debating, but I think that's one of the best ways to really learn something like this. Agree-fest doesn't learn anything new. If I can't argue with somebody about it, then it probably isn't worth my attention.


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## DrPepper (Apr 20, 2009)

There isn't really a good way of getting games companies to here our complaints about DRM. They usually get ignored and they release it with DRM then remove it after its been cracked a few days too late. I for example hate CoH recent introduction of DRM. Usually I can't log in or it tells me my code is invalid and such. Also most games that use steam can be played on multiplayer using hamachi servers. 

Ever since I've been young I've been offered to buy pirated games, films etc and nowadays most people know how to pirate these things themselves and the original pirates who charged money to do this in the first place lose out.


----------



## btarunr (Apr 20, 2009)

Relayer said:


> I have a scenario. Another review site breaks an NDA or someone in China sneaks a new vid card off of the production line and leaks a review out. If TPU reports on their findings and provides a link are they guilty of breaking their own NDA? Are they ‘assisting in making <insert legally correct word> content available’?



Firstly, someone has to sign an NDA in order to respect it. Most sources in Asia use their influences to get a hold of a sample/some slides/documents and then leak it. When Guru3D received a RV740XT sample, luckily for them, AMD didn't push them to enter into an NDA. As a result, they were able to publish a (p)review. Also, it isn't hard for a company's PR dept to crack down on the source of the NDA leak. The people behind it make it hard by hiding bar-code values, special markings, etc. The most a company can do if it zeroes in on the source of the leak is to not provide NDA-protected content/samples any more. Anyway, that is not piracy.

And no, if we relay their content through our news, we aren't breaking our NDA, since we are mentioning where we got our dig from.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ok on your first point about CEOs and politicians in the same bed together is nothing new. That will never change. Now you doing the good fight by stealing is very honorable but stealing is stealing. Again music, games, movies etc are all a luxury and are not applicable to the laws a gouging. You are stealing something you do not need. There is nothing honorable about that. If you were taking bread for poor family's from the evil MGM studios than you can use my house to store it in. As for the Facebook rule I think its 100% far. People should read user agreements before they agree. Sorry but I have no sympathy for its "clients".





What about my other points that build up to my main point, picking one sentence does not elaborate what I was getting at, the whole paragraph makes my statement. Just to refresh your memory here it is again. No where in my paragraph do I state to steal. That is your assumption. 

 In a close to perfect world I might have a bit more sympathy to your arguments. When CEO's and the politicians, who write the laws, which as you probably know and see are romping around in the same bed, what can consumers do but fight back in the only ways they can. Its a fine line called civil disobedience. Take a look around whats happening in the USA and start to connect the dots in the financial district. Can you or I Hire a Lobbyist to fight on our behalf, no but corporations can and do. Years ago Lobbying was called Influence Peddling, which was against the law. Some politicians got together and watered the old laws down and gave them a new name Lobbyists. Gave them some new regulations, another name for that is Legalized Influence Peddling. So until I see some changes in Legalized Influence peddling, I will in some way do some civil disobedience. Because the way were headed it's all I have left.
By the way TheMailMan78 did you hear that FaceBook is now laying claim to everything that is on their servers. Every sentence, picture, that you or anybody has uploaded. When Facebook first started did they have a disclaimer upfront telling you that what is put on their servers is copyrighted material that they now own. So if they decide to use your mugshot in an ad making money on their site you have no rights to it. TheMailMan78 is this what you call fair. Because the average person can't afford to fight this, they will do so and get away with it. Maybe with your legalistic point of view you might want to go and straighten Facebook out about the abuse of copyright.


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You do have free usage. However you also agreed to the EULA when you installed it the first time.



Its to bad the developers don't put out games that work the way they should. You buy a game with your hard earned money, it doesn't work, your told you have to wait for a patch. Problem is your pissed and can't take a broken game back. All because the developer had a time table to fulfill. To much of that going on and no one to protect the consumer. I'm starting to sense a "Holier then Tho" attitude coming from your direction. Are you trying to make restitution for some past life experience.


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So I guess its the developers fault you don't like to read.  Anyway they make it pretty clear about the install limit in most games. And if you happen to miss it you can easily contact the developer and register your game. However I guess being lazy you would be pissed the Pirate Bay is being closed.
> 
> FYI I aint saying your lazy.



its not the developers that put DRM on everything, its the publishers, and manytimes I have had developers tell me to head over to megagames or gamecopyworld and get a "fixed" exe file to fix a problem caused by flawed/buggy DRM.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Anyway you never have to buy the game again. Read a few posts up for the legit way to do things.



WRONG, EA has told plenty of people they would unlock only ONE more activation and has flat out called them pirats for going over the install limmit, so once that ONE activations  over, you gotta RE-BUY the game(and they will tell you this flat out, read th EA forums) 



TheMailMan78 said:


> You call it boycotting and I call it justifying their fears and breaking the law. The bottom line is there is all this static about installation limits because of piracy. Will it stop piracy? No. But stealing in protest does nothing but put more limits on legit users.



Infact there is one problem with your OPINION in this case, not every country has laws covering this and in many they actually have laws making it perfectly leigal to "pirate"(aka download) programs and games and other content.

If you want a good example of a company thats totaly stoped trying to fight piracy on SP games, look at Stardock, their titles have a key for online play, but the SP game can be had easly free, also if you have a legit key, you can use their services to update the minute patches/addons come out, if you dont, you gotta wait for somebody who does to torrent/rs/exct them for you.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Theft is not my opinion. What you said you do is breaking the law. I just want to make that clear. There is no justification for it. But Ill leave you to your own poisons
> Meh I knew that going in to this. Some fight the good fight by theft. I fight it via the pen.  I just hope no one here thinks I'm being a troll. I'm pretty sure you guys know me better than that.



Theft is not the case if your country doesn't have laws calling downloading theft, so you need to know where everybody you reply to is located and if their country has IP/Copyright laws.

its like people sending DMCA notices to non-us hosts/server/service admins, fact is the DMCA is a US law, not a world wide law, and so those notices mean exectly DICK to people/services/exct from outside the us.

I agree, theft is bad, BUT you also got one huge problem, downloading/torrenting isnt theft in the true sence of the word, theft is one person/group taking something from another person/group and thus depriving them of said item, on the internet when you download/torrent/exct a file, you aren't taking that file away from anybody, you are COPYING IT, so instead of one person having it and another having had it stolen, 2 people now have it.

its like me coming over, taking your windows cd, making a copy/imaging it to my hdd, then leaving haven already put you cd back where i found it.

you haven't lost anything(didnt say i copyed your key did i?) 

Oh and technically according to the riaa, if you rip a cd to your hdd, then put it on your pmp(portable media player) your a thief because you now have a copy of their property that you didnt pay for.

its the same crap they pulled back when casset tape recorders came out and people wanted to copy their records to tapes because they could then carry them around and listen in the car and at work!!!

the media industry has ALWASE been SLOW and RESISTANT to change, they do not like to have to adapt, and it really hurts them.

think about this, IF they put out their content for a reasonable price in stores AND online for download, wouldnt you think more people would buy it?

just like stardock's seen huge sales of games like sins of a solar empire with virtualy no advertising, enlarge due to people trying the FULL sp game, and then wanting to have online play access.

I know I personaly nolonger buy movies unless i have seen the whole movie, and feel its worth buying, then i buy a pre-viewed copy at the videostore most of the time.

I WONT buy games form some companys because they have prooven over the years that they dont support their products.

Atari: Unreal2 XMP, they closed the dev house that made it b4 it was truely finnished then killed the master servers to help promote ut2k4 sales.
NeverWinterNights 1 and 2, Atari puts "drm" on the games that causes serious problems for PAYING CUSTOMERS( ME!!!) 
NWN2 couldnt even be properly patched due to the DRM, took them close to a year to fully fix the patching issues with the base game......then more then once i have had updates cause problems like explorer crashes.
oh yeah and the random updates that made it say my legit nwn2 disk wasnt legit..........what a crock.


VUG: Tribes: Vengance, these MORONS pushed the game out over a month early, put it up against halflife2 and doom3 and then when sales sucked due to timing AND multi player bugs, they promised a patch and reniged on that as soon as the return time for the game was up for the bulk of copys sold, leaving those of us that bought it for 50bucks (or more) to wonder why we spent our money on yet another VUG product.

EA: limmited activations on games like bioshock, spore, mass effect, as well as spicific game problems including crashing/stability issues and performance issues dirrectly linked/linkable to the DRM used, when you run out of activations it can take weeks to get another activation then when u do they call you a pirate and inform you that if you need another activation, you need to re-buy the game.


Oh, mind you in the case of NWN, I had bioware reps each time tell me to get a fixed exe from megagames or gamecopyworld(perfectly leigal if you own the game) 

i had other games with the same kinda crap, Chrome for example, i couldnt play at all till i got a fixed exe because the protection didnt like my system, it would crash out on "tag checks" so their support person(nice lady on phone) told me where to get a fixed exe and what one of the 4 avalable to download and use.

so please dont ASSume that because somebody downloads a "cracked" or "fixed" or whatever exe/patch for their game that they are breaking the law or a pirate, many times its the only way to fix the problems you run into.

hell NWN2 ran ALOT better with the fixed exe then with the default, over 20fps boost from the lack of securom running in the background!!!!  

some reps on the bioware forums where pm'ing people with a link to a "fixed" exe file to help with performance issues with the game.....thats SAD since bioware didnt even acctualy make the game  (they helped tho)


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## Mussels (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well the whole reason why developers are going down the route of limited installs is because of places like Pirate Bay. You want to stop this trend? Don't buy their games and at the same time don't steal them ether. By doing that you are justifying their motive.



The thing is, never has any anti piracy measure stopped the PIRATES. it only stops the legit consumer.

In order to make money back they do things that makes legit consumers buy the game again, the pirates wont buy it just because it has a CD check... they'll crack it like always!


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## Triprift (Apr 20, 2009)

A while back my sis used to work in a recording studio and she tolled me it takes about 4 bucks to make an album. Now obviously that was a fair few years ago and that sum would of gone up but considering the price of albulms here 20 odd bucks that mark up is huge. Not saying that justifies dlin songs for free but the record companies could charge half what there selling for and make nice profits.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 20, 2009)

Triprift said:


> A while back my sis used to work in a recording studio and she tolled me it takes about 4 bucks to make an album. Now obviously that was a fair few years ago and that sum would of gone up but considering the price of albulms here 20 odd bucks that mark up is huge. Not saying that justifies dlin songs for free but the record companies could charge half what there selling for and make nice profits.



Actually those costs would have gone down due to the majority of disc manufacturing now outsourced for next to nothing and ClearChannel owning the majority of concert venues and radio stations. There is only one guy to bribe to play your music now.  

But the Somali Pirates might be getting in on that soon.


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## Triprift (Apr 20, 2009)

I was just making a point if anyone can tell me why the prices of software and music cd's are more expensive here then many other western countries id love to hear it.


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## Relayer (Apr 20, 2009)

btarunr said:


> And no, if we relay their content through our news, we aren't breaking our NDA, since we are mentioning where we got our dig from.



So, how does TPB break any laws when they haven't agreed to any EULA and they aren't supplying any pirated software, music, movies. They are only supplying links to those who have.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 20, 2009)

Triprift said:


> I was just making a point if anyone can tell me why the prices of software and music cd's are more expensive here then many other western countries id love to hear it.



Its a problem with the core of Australia IMO. Many people say it never stopped being a prison colony when it comes to individual rights and the lack of standing up to your government when its screwing you over. The USA is very strongly influenced by corporations but from what I have heard Australia is saturated with corporatism. Its most likely from complacency.  

Triprift, I wish many people in your country had your wise view on life, but I doubt many people are willing to take a stand against unfair business practices.

My city(Greensboro, NC) had almost half of downtown filled with protestors over us becoming a test area for bandwidth capping by Time Warner cable. Its because they are the only high speed provider here(monopoly). They quickly said they were no longer planning it and it will not go into effect after the protesting was all over our college campuses and Time Warner Cable property. 

I just don't see Australia doing that kind of stuff when companies start imposing unfair business practices.


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## btarunr (Apr 20, 2009)

Relayer said:


> So, how does TPB break any laws when they haven't agreed to any EULA and they aren't supplying any pirated software, music, movies. They are only supplying links to those who have.



Don't ask me about how TPB works, that's of zero concern. You are trying to equate NDA with copyrighted content (which are not the same). An NDA is an agreement between A company, and A party. If xyz.com breaches its NDA, our citing their content doesn't make us breach our own NDA with that company. I'm also excluding those who leak NDA content without actually signing one in the first place.


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## Hayder_Master (Apr 20, 2009)

come to iraq every dvd (game , program , movie , audio ) = 3$


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## IcrushitI (Apr 20, 2009)

hayder.master said:


> come to iraq every dvd (game , program , movie , audio ) = 3$



It would be cheaper for me to pay you $10 and postage, have you thought of reselling.


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## DrPepper (Apr 20, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> It would be cheaper for me to pay you $10 and postage, have you thought of reselling.



Won't it be in arabic


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## DaMulta (Apr 20, 2009)

Piratebay is now DOWN


So I used google and was successful!

Sad day!


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## DaMulta (Apr 20, 2009)

Well pratebay trackers are still working


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## Triprift (Apr 20, 2009)

Its back up now


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## DaMulta (Apr 20, 2009)

Triprift said:


> Its back up now


WOOT


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 20, 2009)

hayder.master said:


> come to iraq every dvd (game , program , movie , audio ) = 3$


  I can just hear the board of American tourism now: 

"Come to Iraq for the cheap DVDs and stay for the IEDs!"


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## psyko12 (Apr 20, 2009)

Yarrr, they can't stop Black Beard or who ever running the site now, thanks to TPB I got my games mostly non working cd games off it...  hope those guys get out of the pinch they're in


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## mdm-adph (Apr 20, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I can just hear the board of American tourism now:
> 
> "Come to Iraq for the cheap DVDs and stay for the IEDs!"



There are no more IED's in Iraq -- the Surge(tm) got rid of them all.

What we're seeing today is overzealous DVD marketers not understanding that "guerrilla marketing" doesn't necessarily mean you have to actually be a guerrilla.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 20, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> There are no more IED's in Iraq -- the Surge(tm) got rid of them all.
> 
> What we're seeing today is overzealous DVD marketers not understanding that "guerrilla marketing" doesn't necessarily mean you have to actually be a guerrilla.


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## KainXS (Apr 20, 2009)

Mussels said:


> well, i dont go to pirate bay anyway. its full of fakes, viruses, and other crap.



that is the truest thing I have heard in a long time


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## morpha (Apr 20, 2009)

Just adding my two cents on the Australia Issue:

I Support Pirating. BECAUSE:

Music Companies wont change their prices untill they are forced too. Look at Metalica. They released an Album online as MP3's even after 10 years of Anti-Napster, Anti-Download bs. 
ITunes and Mobile Phone downloads make a fortune. And in Australia, the cost of CD's has gone down. It used to be $35/album. now its $20/album.

Game Publishers are largely to blame for games being pushed early without being properly completed. I have a friend who worked on the PS2 version of Starwars: Forces Unleashed and the Xbox version of Viva Pinata.
According to him Publishers give the dev rights to the company that can do it the fastest, cheapest and drop that developer if they miss even ONE milestone.
Poor bastard has had so many all-nighter work sessions...
STEAM allows game developers to skip publishers all together. So if you want to help change the way the industry is, buy from steam.


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## DrPepper (Apr 20, 2009)

morpha said:


> Just adding my two cents on the Australia Issue:
> 
> I Support Pirating. BECAUSE:
> 
> ...



If they got rid of publishers who would erm fund the project ?


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## morpha (Apr 20, 2009)

The Steam sales of their last game....


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## DrPepper (Apr 20, 2009)

morpha said:


> The Steam sales of their last game....



Who will pay for that game to be made ?

I don't want to come across as a dick but thats a pretty big flaw


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## morpha (Apr 20, 2009)

No. its a valid point.

What im trying to get at is that somehow Publishers need to be put in a bad spot and be forced to change their ways. Since all the issues with buying legit thats ive read in this thread are all caused by them. Just like Music companies have been forced to change by the emergence of itunes and a shift of the majority buying CD's, to the majority buying MP3's. Publishers need a kick in the pants.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 21, 2009)

well said:


> that is the truest thing I have heard in a long time



Thats only if your going after the copyright material, you should know better. There is so much legal stuff to  download, Linux, TV shows etc, CBC documentaries, theirs so much more to download from p2p,I can't list them all. 
 Have a question to the group. If a copyrighted program has been changed from the original by someone else, does it still make it illegal to download since it isn't the original. As far as I'm concerned the changed program is owned by the person who uploaded it. Just a thought.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

morpha said:


> Just adding my two cents on the Australia Issue:
> 
> I Support Pirating. BECAUSE:
> 
> ...



STEAM is BLAH, if you want to see a good company that offers a KICKASS game engine AND service to sell your games AND even allow you to distribute them via web browser check this out.
http://instantaction.com brought to you by the guys at http://www.garagegames.com/

also stardock publishes for  independant devs as well, not just larger more known devs like gas powered games.

Steam is an "ok" option, but i feel that IA and stardocks "impulse driven" service offer a better option for most game developers to get their indi games out for the masses.



DrPepper said:


> Who will pay for that game to be made ?
> 
> I don't want to come across as a dick but thats a pretty big flaw




the developers will, You know most of the long term successfull dev houses started out making games using their own money to fund said projects, take a look at the games on http://instantaction.com they dont got a "publisher" forcing them to get games out b4 they are ready, infact IA/GG would rather the devs get it ready for openbeta, then offer the openbeta via IA, on into the full game, this means the game dosnt go "retail" till its truely ready to do so.

btw little hist about GG, it was started by ex-dynamix employees when sierra/vug closed down the company, they bought the rights to the "dark star" game engine(the engine used in tribes1 and starsiege) and have spent years enhancing and advancing it, its ever bit as capable as the big name engines, and the bit bennifit of using it over those big name engines is COST, you can get an indi licence for $295USD, they offer other licence options that keep the cost down for developers and allow them to produce and sell games at a reasonable price.

http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3D

i know some of the IA/GG guys pretty well, and if you need help, somebody will most likely be willing to take a few min and give you some, they are great guys.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> Thats only if your going after the copyright material, you should know better. There is so much legal stuff to  download, Linux, TV shows etc, CBC documentaries, theirs so much more to download from p2p,I can't list them all.
> Have a question to the group. If a copyrighted program has been changed from the original by someone else, does it still make it illegal to download since it isn't the original. As far as I'm concerned the changed program is owned by the person who uploaded it. Just a thought.



tv shows arent leigal to download in the US, nobody really goes after shows that are on free tv stations, but HBO and other "preimum" service shows(dead like me and stargate where good examples) are NOT safe to download.(well both those shows are now safe to download mostly, but only because they have aired on scifi chan)


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## DaMulta (Apr 21, 2009)

Why not pirate?

You get everything for FREE. It's a WIN WIN situation!


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> Why not pirate?
> 
> You get everything for FREE. It's a WIN WIN situation!



I totally agree but peerguardian or proxy is a good thing to have.


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## Triprift (Apr 21, 2009)

Pirate bay lives that all im worried about and D no more post like last night ya mega scared me saying PB was down.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> Why not pirate?
> 
> You get everything for FREE. It's a WIN WIN situation!



hey, I aint gonna say I am not a pirate, but I will point out when somebody elses logic/facts are FLAWED.

I go a "viking" quite regularly(the word viking orignaly ment something like roaming, and was not the name of a spicific group of people) 

I sales the dark underbelly of the intranetz, I know where to go when I need something I cant afford or refuse to buy(fuck buying anything from atari,vug,EA or their ilk) 

I do feel i have some justification in my actions, and if I really like something I endup buying it, normaly if its a VUG/atari/EA product i get it 2nd hand for 5-10bucks, way i see it, they dont deserve my money after the ammoung all of them have taken without giving me back proper value(support) 

TPB sucks, but i do use their trackers at times on torrents I MAKE(mostly audio books i make using text to speech software, stuff thats not got audio versions avalable and/or is out of print) 

i use a few other sites, wont name any here, ya dirty heathans aint getting my sorces


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> I totally agree but peerguardian or proxy is a good thing to have.



peerguardian is a JOKE, its USELESS
http://fora.demonoid.com/index.php?topic=25342.0
read that post, it explains why using peerguardian is STUPID and just gives people a false sence of security.

I do use a filters.ini with utorrent, but it mostly blocks those companys that seed fake parts to torrents so i dont gotta wait at 99.9% for a week trying to get a valid part


----------



## DaMulta (Apr 21, 2009)

Well we all know News Groups FTW


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> peerguardian is a JOKE, its USELESS
> http://fora.demonoid.com/index.php?topic=25342.0
> read that post, it explains why using peerguardian is STUPID and just gives people a false sence of security.
> 
> I do use a filters.ini with utorrent, but it mostly blocks those companys that seed fake parts to torrents so i dont gotta wait at 99.9% for a week trying to get a valid part



Its useful according to the release groups that make and distribute the hacks.... but I guess you know more than them? Its in many different groups' release notes.

Hey maybe you are right but I would trust the releasers of the content more than a random guy on the internet. But you could be right so I will not debate it with you. 





DaMulta said:


> Well we all know News Groups FTW



My favorite to fall back on is IRC. I can find just about anything that way.


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 21, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> tv shows arent leigal to download in the US, nobody really goes after shows that are on free tv stations, but HBO and other "preimum" service shows(dead like me and stargate where good examples) are NOT safe to download.(well both those shows are now safe to download mostly, but only because they have aired on scifi chan)



I don't see the difference, our cableboxes have hard drives in them so you can record, and that is any program,tv shows, movies. To download from the net is no difference, its all coming down the same pipeline. One of the selling points for the PVR is to be able to record what ever you want, so I do. If the HD movie is good I'll transfer to the computer and put it on dvd.
When I signed up with cable, its also my internet provider,nowhere in my contract does it say I can't download specific items off the net. Nowhere does it say I can't download copyrighted material. All it says is what package I'm getting and how much its going to cost. If downloading copyrighted material was illegal, you would think their would be a disclaimer on the contract making me aware of it, so I can't hold them responsible for not explaining to me what I can and can't do. Big grey area here in Canada. As most of you are aware we pay taxes on blank media so copyright holders get paid. Again more grey area. Which is why I like our governing system.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

> As most of you are aware we pay taxes on blank media so copyright holders get paid. Again more grey area. Which is why I like our governing system.



I would not like that... thats crazy.


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> I would not like that... thats crazy.



No its not crazy, we are by law allowed to download music, its a better system then having the RIAA Gestapo send letters to people and extort money because the majority  can't afford to fight them in court.Thats the American way Someone from the WhiteHouse probably sent out a directive to the RIAA not to clog up the courts with frivolous music downloaders. Do what ever you want, extortion works. Can you imagine what more of a  laughing stock the USA would be if they started sending thousands of music downloaders to prison because they couldn't pay $75,000 or more per song. Thier system is a complete joke. Sig Hiel to their Kapitalism gone Kaput.


----------



## troyrae360 (Apr 21, 2009)

so do you canadins need to pay the extra tax on your 1tb HD's as well? or is it just for cd/dvd?


----------



## Hayder_Master (Apr 21, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> It would be cheaper for me to pay you $10 and postage, have you thought of reselling.



good deal fro me , but the i have problem with shipment i also like buy some good stuff from outside like pc parts , but there is no way right now for cheap shipment


DrPepper said:


> Won't it be in arabic



no , it is like what you use , like original one 


TheMailMan78 said:


> I can just hear the board of American tourism now:
> 
> "Come to Iraq for the cheap DVDs and stay for the IEDs!"



 , i see always the american soldiers buy video and audio cd's from our markets


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 21, 2009)

troyrae360 said:


> so do you canadins need to pay the extra tax on your 1tb HD's as well? or is it just for cd/dvd?



Just cd dvd.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 21, 2009)

Apparently, the water under this subject is starting to boil:
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/20/a-turning-point-for-online-piracy/

An excerpt:


> There was plenty of online chatter this weekend about file sharing and Internet piracy.
> 
> This follows Friday’s news that four people who ran a popular file-sharing site called Pirate Bay were found guilty of violating copyright law in Sweden.
> 
> On Forbes.com, a Harvard professor says Google is the new Pirate Bay. The search engine serves the same function as the piracy sites by enabling people to steal copyrighted content, the professor says.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> No its not crazy, we are by law allowed to download music, its a better system then having the RIAA Gestapo send letters to people and extort money because the majority  can't afford to fight them in court.Thats the American way Someone from the WhiteHouse probably sent out a directive to the RIAA not to clog up the courts with frivolous music downloaders. Do what ever you want, extortion works. Can you imagine what more of a  laughing stock the USA would be if they started sending thousands of music downloaders to prison because they couldn't pay $75,000 or more per song. Thier system is a complete joke. Sig Hiel to their Kapitalism gone Kaput.



Oh yeah Canada is the best place in the world.  Its definately not the worst place, but I don't see the need for nationalistic statements supporting Canada either. Its only natural for these organizations to target the largest markets and "largest offenders" first to them. Canada just laid down and taxed its people to give these content providers some cash.... thats the definition of extortion. 

If they succeed in the big markets they will move onto smaller markets like Canada. Your tax on media doesn't protect you. I wonder what made you think it did. It was a victory for content providers and not the public.

Copyrights are protected by international treaties that Canada signed.


----------



## Relayer (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Oh yeah Canada is the best place in the world.  Its definately not the worst place, but I don't see the need for nationalistic statements supporting Canada either. Its only natural for these organizations to target the largest markets and "largest offenders" first to them. Canada just laid down and taxed its people to give these content providers some cash.... thats the definition of extortion.
> 
> If they succeed in the big markets they will move onto smaller markets like Canada. Your tax on media doesn't protect you. I wonder what made you think it did. It was a victory for content providers and not the public.
> 
> Copyrights are protected by international treaties that Canada signed.



Agreed! This is fining everyone whether they deserve it or not. Typical socialistic mentality.


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Its useful according to the release groups that make and distribute the hacks.... but I guess you know more than them? Its in many different groups' release notes.
> 
> Hey maybe you are right but I would trust the releasers of the content more than a random guy on the internet. But you could be right so I will not debate it with you.
> 
> ...



yeah and if a car sales man tells you that dumping some sawdust in your engin block will make it knock less your gonna belive them to.....

i been doing this for years, the number of people i see that get letters when RUNNING PG2 with FULLY UPDATED LISTS is far higher then that of people who dont run that crap.

as to hacks/cracks, NOBODY CARES ABOUT HACKS and CRACKS.

but hey, enjoy your slow download speeds AND huge false sence of security, i tryed to help, i even gave a link with HIGHLY detailed explination of why PG2 sucks and is utterly useless.

corse anybody whos been in "the scene" or saling the high seas of the intranetz under belly very long already knows that pg2 isnt gonna stop all the spys the riaa/mpaa/exct pay to download this shit just to log your ip addy(its nolonger just done from company offices, its mostly done from HOMES now.

i will have to show some people off the noid irc your posts....they will enjoy the lulz of yet another ***** thinking pg2 is saving them from getting a letter!!!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 21, 2009)

hayder.master said:


> , i see always the american soldiers buy video and audio cd's from our markets


Ya know man after I said that I thought it might be taken the wrong way. I'm really glad you took it as humor and not a dig at your country man.


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Copyrights are protected by international treaties that Canada signed.



Sometimes it takes a person from a developing nation to cut to the core, here is his quote And I have underlined what I have been trying to get across.

One user from India writes, "When I use uTorrent to download torrent files from TPB I notice most of my peers are from rich countries downloading the same music I want but is prohibitively expensive in my country. Why are they downloading too if they are citizens of developed countries? It is only because they too feel that they are being over-charged for their entertainment about which they can do nothing but take subversive measures against the injustice and exploitation of cartels who have used their influence in government to enact laws which makes their own consumers thieves." When someone "feels" overcharged for something they want, taking it instead has become ethically allowable—a point confirmed by the fact that "millions of users" are doing it.


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> Well we all know News Groups FTW



damn comcast, they dont give me unlimmited news downloads >.<


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 21, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> Sometimes it takes a person from a developing nation to cut to the core, here is his quote And I have underlined what I have been trying to get across.
> 
> One user from India writes, "When I use uTorrent to download torrent files from TPB I notice most of my peers are from rich countries downloading the same music I want but is prohibitively expensive in my country. Why are they downloading too if they are citizens of developed countries? It is only because they too feel that they are being over-charged for their entertainment about which they can do nothing but take subversive measures against the injustice and exploitation of cartels who have used their influence in government to enact laws which makes their own consumers thieves." When someone "feels" overcharged for something they want, taking it instead has become ethically allowable—a point confirmed by the fact that "millions of users" are doing it.



 I feel over charged for a lot of things. Theft never crossed my mind however.


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I feel over charged for a lot of things. Theft never crossed my mind however.



im sure he ment digital content, not gas for your car and chips/beer/cars/exct.

for me its a function of them over charging+giving me shit support(videogames) as well as them expecting me to re-buy the same damn movie over and over every time they change the format or the disk gos bad(i have 4+ dbl sided dvd's that dont read properly anymore due to layer sepration, they want 15-20bucks+shiping to replace the defective disks...)


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> *yeah and if a car sales man tells you that dumping some sawdust in your engin block will make it knock less your gonna belive them to.....*
> 
> i been doing this for years, the number of people i see that get letters when RUNNING PG2 with FULLY UPDATED LISTS is far higher then that of people who dont run that crap.
> 
> ...




I have never used peerguardian. I was just saying it was good and I have never gotten a "letter". You obviously are stretching it out of proportion with the sawdust comment. 

Peergaurdian is not for IRC. You are not an official on the matter. 

Perhaps you can debate the topic with a little more class when you grow up and stop acting like an "internet tough guy".


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I feel over charged for a lot of things. Theft never crossed my mind however.



Mailman you just don't see the bigger picture of why millions feel stepped on and why they are committing civil disobedience. Let me shorten the last quote a little more for your benefit. I don't steal, I'm trying to explain why others may be committing civil disobedience.
"the injustice and exploitation of cartels (RIAA, MPAA) who have used their influence in government to enact laws which makes their own consumers thieves."


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

I been around a long time, I get tired of "stupid kids" telling people to do stuff that wont help them AT ALL  and infact will make them do risky reckless things thinking they are protected.

as to the saw dust, I have seen used car sales men use tricks like putting fine saw dust into the engin block/oil to stop knocking so they could sell a car with a blown motor without the person being able to hear that the engins blown, there are other such dirty tricks people pull as well, but i wont get into them, as it may give you or somebody else here bad ideas.

back on the pg2 (and other such apps) topic, they give nothing more then a false sence of security, like wraping ur crank in plastic wrap and calling it a condom.......


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

IcrushitI said:


> Mailman you just don't see the bigger picture of why millions feel stepped on and why they are committing civil disobedience. Let me shorten the last quote a little more for your benefit. I don't steal, I'm trying to explain why others may be committing civil disobedience.
> "the injustice and exploitation of cartels (RIAA, MPAA) who have used their influence in government to enact laws which makes their own consumers thieves."



Disney was the one who extended copyrights to a rediculous amount. That kind of stuff really hurts creativity in my opinion. Its unfortunate that Disney and the RIAA have so much power in our government. So I agree with you on that.







FryingWeesel said:


> I been around a long time, I get tired of "stupid kids" telling people to do stuff that wont help them AT ALL  and infact will make them do risky reckless things thinking they are protected.
> 
> as to the saw dust, I have seen used car sales men use tricks like putting fine saw dust into the engin block/oil to stop knocking so they could sell a car with a blown motor without the person being able to hear that the engins blown, there are other such dirty tricks people pull as well, but i wont get into them, as it may give you or somebody else here bad ideas.
> 
> back on the pg2 (and other such apps) topic, they give nothing more then a false sence of security, like wraping ur crank in plastic wrap and calling it a condom.......



It makes sense with car salesmen scamming people because they have something to gain from it. It makes no sense for the people cracking and releasing content to tell you to use a free program that helps in no situation. *I am saying that I am not an official on the matter so you might be right as I have said earlier in the thread. Also that people that do the releases often times insist on using it.* I just don't think that it serves no purpose to use the program. I am sure in some cases it helps people, just not me because I have never used it. And some cases it might not help at all because every protection can be breached eventually.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 21, 2009)

Civil disobedience is when you do something that defies a law that directly effects you in context. Unfair Taxes, 20 bucks for a gallon of milk. Things of this nature. Not the retail of a music CD. A luxuary item. You guys are not seeing the big picture. You can charge WHATEVER you want for a luxuary item. If they limit this than they can limit EVERYTHING. Including your wages.

The pirate bay was a service to help you steal. Nothing more. Calling it something righteous like "Civil disobedience" doesn't make it any less of a theft.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Civil disobedience is when you do something that defies a law that directly effects you in context. Unfair Taxes, 20 bucks for a gallon of milk. Things of this nature. Not the retail of a music CD. A luxuary item. You guys are not seeing the big picture. You can charge WHATEVER you want for a luxuary item. If they limit this than they can limit EVERYTHING. Including your wages.
> 
> The pirate bay was a service to help you steal. Nothing more. Calling it something righteous like "Civil disobedience" doesn't make it any less of a theft.



But do you believe Google can be used the same?

If so many search engines would have to be sued aswell.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> But do you believe Google can be used the same?
> 
> If so many search engines would have to be sued aswell.



Googles sole purpose is not to steal. Pirate Bay was always meant to be used this way. They bragged about it. THAT is why they got epic pwnage.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Googles sole purpose is not to steal. Pirate Bay was always meant to be used this way. They bragged about it. THAT is why they got epic pwnage.



Yeah, I guess its in the name. 

But many non copyrighted works went up on Pirate bay. It wasn't just for illegal content.

I just think its not a big deal to have a bunch of poor kids and whatnot downloading stuff for free. I don't think it hurts these companies enough to be able to sue everybody for subpar copies.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 21, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Yeah, I guess its in the name.
> 
> But many non copyrighted works went up on Pirate bay. It wasn't just for illegal content.
> 
> I just think its not a big deal to have a bunch of poor kids and whatnot downloading stuff for free. I don't think it hurts these companies enough to be able to sue everybody for subpar copies.



The problem man is stealing is stealing. Poor kids or not. I mean if they can afford a computer and internet access than they ain't that poor.


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The problem man is stealing is stealing. Poor kids or not. I mean if they can afford a computer and internet access than they ain't that poor.



question, whats your definition of theft/stealing?

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Theft


> The term theft is sometimes used synonymously with Larceny. Theft, however, is actually a broader term, *encompassing many forms of deceitful taking of property*, including swindling, Embezzlement, and False Pretenses. Some states categorize all these offenses under a single statutory crime of theft.



sorry but p2p/file SHARING dosnt consist of "taking of property" it consists of COPYING bits of data from one/many systems to one/many others, nothing is TAKEN or STOLEN.

Im being very literal here, because the law, its intents and how its implemented are two very differnt things, If you got enough money you can get away with literally anything, OR cause somebody to be found guilty of anything as well.

the US leigal system is quite flawed, its better then many places, but still, its more about "who has the most $ wins the case" or "he who has the $ makes the rules"

I know this is true in other places around the world as well, money and political power are far to much a part of this world......

as to the pg2 crap, dude, i haven't seen any NFO/readme/exct mention it in years, other then to say it was useless and would slow down your downloads so dont use it.(most of the addys blocked are residential dynamic ip's, so blocking them is silly since from day to day anybody could have that addy.) 

read the link i provided, it will explain fully why pg2 is worthless.

hell u want funny, at one point pg2 has its own update server blacklisted so u couldnt update it, if you had it running ROFL


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The problem man is stealing is stealing. Poor kids or not. I mean if they can afford a computer and internet access than they ain't that poor.



Thats rather subjective. Being under the poverty line is making less than $16,000 in the US. $16,000 could buy a computer....


----------



## mdm-adph (Apr 21, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Googles sole purpose is not to steal. Pirate Bay was always meant to be used this way. They bragged about it. THAT is why they got epic pwnage.



Well, as long as you're cool with Mininova, then you're right.  Otherwise, no.  

Though the argument of "sole purpose" is full of holes, and I've never liked it.  I've seen the same argument used against newsgroups (their "sole purpose" is child porn!) and IRC (their "sole purpose" is, uhh, child porn!).


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 21, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Well, as long as you're cool with Mininova, then you're right.  Otherwise, no.
> 
> Though the argument of "sole purpose" is full of holes, and I've never liked it.  I've seen the same argument used against newsgroups (their "sole purpose" is child porn!) and IRC (their "sole purpose" is, uhh, child porn!).


 mdm-adph! Only you would bring child porn into this conversation.


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 22, 2009)

did somebody say pedobear?

since i found these with google that must be all googles for, is pedobear pix!!!!


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 22, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Civil disobedience is when you do something that defies a law that directly effects you in context. Unfair Taxes, 20 bucks for a gallon of milk. Things of this nature. Not the retail of a music CD. A luxuary item. You guys are not seeing the big picture. You can charge WHATEVER you want for a luxuary item. If they limit this than they can limit EVERYTHING. Including your wages.
> 
> The pirate bay was a service to help you steal. Nothing more. Calling it something righteous like "Civil disobedience" doesn't make it any less of a theft.



 Here is another definition of Civil Disobedience: 

Philosophy Dictionary: civil disobedience
"The political tactic of disobeying a law deliberately, in order to bring about some change. The disobedience should ideally be public, non-violent, and committed by activists willing to face the penalties of the law."
Does that not describe what TPB is doing, or anybody else that is fighting through whatever means because the law is unjust and favors a select few that have the wealth to influence, through lobbying (influence peddling) the politicians.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 22, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> question, whats your definition of theft/stealing?


If you have an object and I take it from you, that is stealing.  You no longer have said object, I do.  With digitized content and lossless, virtually free copying of data, even if I take it from you, you still have it.  How is that stealing?  The only way it is stealing is if you feel entitled to compensation for me copying it.  The legal questions is: do you deserve compensation for something you didn't actually lose?

If Google gets taken to court, I hope they win saying that copying digital content, so long as it isn't for profit, is legal.  That is, if person A downloads music for themselves, it isn't a crime.  If person A downloads music, burns it to a disk, and sells the disks to person B, C, and D, it is illegal due to forgery of the content (new author).

If Google loses the case, then the next thing they'll go after backing up anything.  If they succeed with making backups illegal, then say good bye to the "Copy" function in computers.  If they succeed there, say good bye to your computer (because memory operations are illegal which all Intel processors do on the lowest level).

Where does it stop?


----------



## DaMulta (Apr 22, 2009)

Did you know that you can use google to only pull up torrents?

Programs?

ISOs

you name it.

YOU Do not have to pull up website to download from google.

Go to google and search like this

intitle:"index.of" (MP3|mp4|AVI|ISO) what you are looking for type here -html -htm - php -asp -cf -jsp


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 22, 2009)

you can google for file downloads leigal and illegal, direct downloads, ftp lists, on and on, oh yeah and news/nbz listings :O


----------



## DaMulta (Apr 22, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> you can google for file downloads leigal and illegal, direct downloads, ftp lists, on and on, oh yeah and news/nbz listings :O



just like piratebay which might i add also has LEGAL THINGS on their site.


----------



## DrPepper (Apr 22, 2009)

DaMulta said:


> just like piratebay which might i add also has LEGAL THINGS on their site.



Indeed I just downloaded the new battlefield 1.5 beta patch in mere seconds.


----------



## IcrushitI (Apr 22, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> you can google for file downloads leigal and illegal, direct downloads, ftp lists, on and on, oh yeah and news/nbz listings :O



Since Google has everything that TPB does and and shall I say,  more than we are aware of, you would of thought the RIAA and MPAA would be all over Google, but shall I say, Google has deep pockets and possibly have a few politicians in their pockets.   All the RIAA  have shown is that they only go after grannies, kids, dead people, students, and small torrent sites not the big torrent sites like Google.
If I was you Mailman I'd be spreading you thoughts to your Congressman and go as diligently as you have here and get Google shut down.


----------



## imperialreign (Apr 22, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The pirate bay was a service to help you steal. Nothing more.



partially agree - it's a torrent site, and merely passes along the information necessary for your rig to download a torrent from _someone else's_ rig . . . nothing on the site's servers.


It's the equivalent, IMHO, of walking up to someone and asking "hey, you know where I can get a hold of some red?"  and that person responding "no, I don't mess with that crap - but if you go check out my buddy down the road . . . he can hook you up."

Can someone be held legally accountable for illegal drug trade just because they know someone who is in the business . . . even though they've never touched the stuff in their life?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 22, 2009)

Apparently so.  It's wrong but it's in Sweden so what can we do about it?  Hell, it happened here too with a lot of "demo" groups getting taken down...and Kazaa...and eDonkey...and Napster.  I'd say it's anti-new-technology on the Government's (not just USA either--international) behalf for not stepping in and stopping it.  Which begs another question: When is UDP and TCP, the base framework for transmitting digital information, going to become illegal?

Again, when does it stop?


----------



## imperialreign (Apr 22, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Apparently so.  It's wrong but it's in Sweden so what can we do about it?  Hell, it happened here too with a lot of "demo" groups getting taken down...and Kazaa...and eDonkey.





well - that's part of the problem in the US . . .

make the issue public enough, and glamorize only one side of it - and everyone stops thinking . . .

look at Napster, for example . . .


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 22, 2009)

imperialreign said:


> look at Napster, for example . . .


Heh, I just edited the post.  I thought of that one after that edit. XD

Still, I can't help but think this "issue" won't be resolved until more youngins get in political positions--those that grew up with the Internet and computers in general.


----------



## Tyr.1358 (Apr 22, 2009)

Hybrid_theory said:


> What software companies need to protect is their licenses. Microsoft for example is developing a model to protect their licenses, and they won't care if you download a piece of software cause your disc got destroyed. You paid for the license to use the software, not the software itself in a sense.
> 
> More companies should follow this.
> 
> As per movies and cds, why not cut down costs a bit. May get people more willing to purchase products.



I agree.  I see movies in walmart now with two prices.  One is $20, the other is $35.  The $35 version has a "digital copy for your computer!".  What is up with that?  Do I own it or not? The rights are not transferrable?

That is what I thought steam was about (I was so excited, because I have more than one computer), but now I have $300 worth of steam games that won't install.  You press the install button and nothing happens.  You open up the disc drive directory and run the setup app and nothing happens.  Reinstall windows and flash the dvd-rom firmware, nothing happens. Go online to activate a product I actually payed for and nothing happens.  Submit a support ticket and nothing happens.  Go to TPB and download it, _then_ it works fine.

I guess it is ok to put software on a subscription based service, but what happens when the activation servers die off and no one takes responsibility?  I'm the only person I know that has this problem with steam, but just because my account is an isolated incident doesn't mean it couldn't happen to everyone else; especially with other companies.  What was the name of that game, Table Rusa? Tabul Rasu? IDK but I think all the people who bought a copy got screwed.:shadedshu


----------



## Hayder_Master (Apr 22, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ya know man after I said that I thought it might be taken the wrong way. I'm really glad you took it as humor and not a dig at your country man.



sure my friend this is what i should be , in iraq culture people think like that the problem is the ignored people wrong that is iraq problem


----------



## FryingWeesel (Apr 22, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Apparently so.  It's wrong but it's in Sweden so what can we do about it?  Hell, it happened here too with a lot of "demo" groups getting taken down...and Kazaa...and eDonkey...and Napster.  I'd say it's anti-new-technology on the Government's (not just USA either--international) behalf for not stepping in and stopping it.  Which begs another question: When is UDP and TCP, the base framework for transmitting digital information, going to become illegal?
> 
> Again, when does it stop?



1. kazza sucked, just a bunch of bugged crappy quility mp3's and viruses/fakes

2. edonky was dead long b4 the leigal action was taken, their software was replaced by emule and shareaza and other BETTER clients.

3. Napster........dont get me started on that.

blah, i would like to see all these fuckers just fucking die and leave the rest of us alone!!!(riaa/mpaa/exct)


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## mrw1986 (Apr 22, 2009)

I would download gas illegally if I could.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 22, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> 1. kazza sucked, just a bunch of bugged crappy quility mp3's and viruses/fakes


Sherman Network had to pay $100 million and as a result, sold off to Brilliant Digital Entertainment, Inc. which turned it into a subscription music download service.




FryingWeesel said:


> 2. edonky was dead long b4 the leigal action was taken, their software was replaced by emule and shareaza and other BETTER clients.


MetaMachine Inc. had to pay $30 million to the RIAA and discontinue the client, eDonkey2000.




FryingWeesel said:


> 3. Napster........dont get me started on that.


Napster paid $36 million to the RIAA making it a subscription service in order to pay down the debt.  It was later bankrupted after a judge denied a German company to buy it up.  Roxio now owns the rights to the name "Napster."


Yes, their software isn't the best but that isn't the point.  They were killed and/or forced to change their business to subscriptions just because they linked to data on other people's computers.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 22, 2009)

i am aware of all that, but kazza was CRAP, it was only so popular because it was one of the first easy to use searching clients.

as to the others, really it dosnt matter, they where really done to give the RIAA/MPAA moral victorys, just like this case with TPB will fade now that the mpaa/riaa have their moral victory and thus justification to them sueing kids, old people, dead people, homeless people...exct


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## Relayer (Apr 22, 2009)

All of this "intent of the pirate bay" is meaningless. You have either broken a law or you haven't. It's that black and white. What law did the pirate bay break? As has been mentioned there is nothing on the pirate bay that is not on Google as well. If the pirate bay was breaking the law by having this content so is every other site that carries the same content.

Aren't the makers of p2p software just as guilty? It can just as easily be argued that bittorrent software assists in breaking copyright laws.


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## Mussels (Apr 22, 2009)

Relayer said:


> All of this "intent of the pirate bay" is meaningless. You have either broken a law or you haven't. It's that black and white. What law did the pirate bay break? As has been mentioned there is nothing on the pirate bay that is not on Google as well. If the pirate bay was breaking the law by having this content so is every other site that carries the same content.
> 
> Aren't the makers of p2p software just as guilty? It can just as easily be argued that bittorrent software assists in breaking copyright laws.



oh dont forget the companies that made the web browsers, without them we never could have got the pirated materials.

Oh and shut down every ISP as well, they havent blocked it.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 22, 2009)

they also need to kill bulitin bord systems(bbs) and telnet, hell outlaw networking, and any kind of media that can be writen to, since its "piracy" to install something you PAYED FOR on more then one system(like a game, or windows)


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## Mussels (Apr 22, 2009)

actually the final step is to outlaw the original programs in the first place. no operating systems, no PC hardware, nothing - if we dont have PC's we cant pirate! simple!


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## DrPepper (Apr 22, 2009)

Mussels said:


> oh dont forget the companies that made the web browsers, without them we never could have got the pirated materials.
> 
> Oh and shut down every ISP as well, they havent blocked it.



Don't forget hard drives for letting us store it. Anything and everything can be involved in assisting piracy so its pretty much a silly law.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 22, 2009)

well, see alot of companys want to move to "Cloud computing" meaning the "computer" at your end CANT run by itself, you MUST be online and the OS and other apps/files are stored on the companys servers, so they can carge you effectivly a rental fee for using your computer since all the software is "theirs" 

dosnt that sound fun?


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## mdm-adph (Apr 22, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> mdm-adph! Only you would bring child porn into this conversation.



I've no more "brought" it than you have by mentioning it in _your_ post.


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## 3870x2 (Apr 22, 2009)

hayder.master said:


> sure my friend this is what i should be , in iraq culture people think like that the problem is the ignored people wrong that is iraq problem



Where are you in iraq? I was in balad for about 8 months from oct 07 to june 08, and might be coming back at some time.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 22, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> well, see alot of companys want to move to "Cloud computing" meaning the "computer" at your end CANT run by itself, you MUST be online and the OS and other apps/files are stored on the companys servers, so they can carge you effectivly a rental fee for using your computer since all the software is "theirs"
> 
> dosnt that sound fun?


To the people making billions on it, yeah.  Not everyone else.


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## IcrushitI (Apr 22, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> well, see alot of companys want to move to "Cloud computing" meaning the "computer" at your end CANT run by itself, you MUST be online and the OS and other apps/files are stored on the companys servers, so they can carge you effectivly a rental fee for using your computer since all the software is "theirs"
> 
> dosnt that sound fun?



A little off topic, but we seem to be going in a full circle. The internet first started by being open, now it seems the net is being filtered to the point of I'm being taken by the hand and told this is what you can and cannot do and what ever way we decide, you will obey. I just hope the Post Office is still open incase I need to send mail to my friends and family when I decide to let go of this control.


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## DaMulta (Apr 22, 2009)

Arrrrr


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 22, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> To the people making billions on it, yeah.  Not everyone else.



I don't like the sound but at the same time it would solve a lot of piracy issues. Anyway how is that any different than cable TV?



FryingWeesel said:


> question, whats your definition of theft/stealing?
> 
> http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Theft
> 
> ...





FordGT90Concept said:


> If you have an object and I take it from you, that is stealing.  You no longer have said object, I do.  With digitized content and lossless, virtually free copying of data, even if I take it from you, you still have it.  How is that stealing?  The only way it is stealing is if you feel entitled to compensation for me copying it.  The legal questions is: do you deserve compensation for something you didn't actually lose?
> 
> If Google gets taken to court, I hope they win saying that copying digital content, so long as it isn't for profit, is legal.  That is, if person A downloads music for themselves, it isn't a crime.  If person A downloads music, burns it to a disk, and sells the disks to person B, C, and D, it is illegal due to forgery of the content (new author).
> 
> ...



I am an artist by profession. What I am paid to create is property of the company I work for. If I take one of my designs and I GIVE it to a competitor I can go to jail for theft. However you guys think if I shared that same exact design online it should be ok? Intellectual property is called property for a reason. If you do not respect the laws of copyrights than you cant respect the laws of identity. Mickey Mouse is property of Disney. It's an identity. Years ago they shut down SCHOOLS for violating Disney copyright by putting Mickey on the side of the schools or anywhere that wasn't approved by Disney and had not paid to use his likeness. No one bitched. Now since its affecting a bunch of people who have no respect of the law you start to redefine words like "theft" and phrases like "Civil Disobedience". Where does that stop? I can go extreme also. Lets redefine rape and molestation.

That seems stupid doesn't it? Now imagine you bust your ass for years perfecting your trade. Now a service comes along and take away your right for compensation for your effort. Where does THAT end? Do you only pay for material things? So we only pay for parts? Not the time the individual took to assemble it? You guys need to think REAL hard why copyright laws exist. You want to talk about the ultimate extreme? Without artist civilizations dies. Keep taking money from the creative population and watch society crumble. 



DaedalusHelios said:


> Thats rather subjective. Being under the poverty line is making less than $16,000 in the US. $16,000 could buy a computer....


 I've been on food stamps. I didn't have enough for a computer. Thats my definition of poor. You make less that 16,000 a year then you are most defiantly poor.



IcrushitI said:


> Here is another definition of Civil Disobedience:
> 
> Philosophy Dictionary: civil disobedience
> "The political tactic of disobeying a law deliberately, in order to bring about some change. The disobedience should ideally be public, non-violent, and committed by activists willing to face the penalties of the law."
> Does that not describe what TPB is doing, or anybody else that is fighting through whatever means because the law is unjust and favors a select few that have the wealth to influence, through lobbying (influence peddling) the politicians.



 You can not rewrite the context of it or bend the definition above to prove theft of a luxury is acceptible. 



mrw1986 said:


> I would download gas illegally if I could.


Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.



Relayer said:


> All of this "intent of the pirate bay" is meaningless. You have either broken a law or you haven't. It's that black and white. What law did the pirate bay break? As has been mentioned there is nothing on the pirate bay that is not on Google as well. If the pirate bay was breaking the law by having this content so is every other site that carries the same content.


 Yes they broke the law and were convicted.



imperialreign said:


> partially agree - it's a torrent site, and merely passes along the information necessary for your rig to download a torrent from _someone else's_ rig . . . nothing on the site's servers.
> 
> 
> It's the equivalent, IMHO, of walking up to someone and asking "hey, you know where I can get a hold of some red?"  and that person responding "no, I don't mess with that crap - but if you go check out my buddy down the road . . . he can hook you up."
> ...


 The difference between Google was again its intent. Your analogy for the person who knows how to score some "red" is spot on. Now imagine that same person puts in add in the paper to come to his house and he will direct you to all the best drugs some illegal. Some not. When the cops come that person refuses to give up his sources. Illegal or not. He is now upstructing justice and is an accomplice to illegal activities. That is "Pirate Bay".


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 23, 2009)

so you have no problem with ISOhunt then? because it was started as a simple torrent indexing and searching service reguardless of these "intellectual properties rights" people like you are so fond of.

Hate to tell you this but the mere concept of such rights dosnt excist in many cultures.

The problem with people like you is that you think that because you created something that you should have to give your permission for them to even take a photo of it or to copy it, when infact the world thrives on copying , look at china, that place THRIVES on making clones/copy's of stuff other people create/invent.

Current copyright laws are NOT built for the world we live in, they where writen by greedy men who wanted to be payed every time sombody even viewed something they owned the copyright on be it a movie, music, or hell a damn picture.

there are plenty of articals about ways to fix the copyright and IP laws in this country/world, but people like you wouldnt like it because it would mean you having to give up some(not all but some) right to you work.

the fact is that if people like you dont adapt, your just gonna get runover by the buss, and as i see it, theres no real loss there, people who cant/wont adapt are bad for the human race and would have died by being mauled by an animal or from exposure to to much sun or cold because they couldnt adapt to changing conditions.(ok could have starved because they refused to adapt to moving of game animals as well) 

people should be compensated for their work, but not forever and IMHO things even software should go "public domain" after a set number of years, there are alot of older games that people would love to fix or re-make due to bugs but they cant because companys like atari and VUG hold onto the IP rights with a steal glove dispite admiting they never expect to make another game based on said IP rights because theres no profit in it for them.

How is it fair to sell a game for ful retail, after pushing it out MONTHS early then not fixing it because you already got the bulk of your $ out of it, and when the community wants to fix it telling them in effect to "fuck off" because you own the "IP" for said game????


blah, i will come back to this i gotta helps somebody update his seagate hdd's


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## farlex85 (Apr 23, 2009)

Creativity won't suffer from lack of monetary compensation. Never has. But it will be improved by the fantastic variety of influences the internet provides. For creativity, this can only be a good thing, and the argument that file sharing will destroy the artistic community is absurdity. Change it's values and it's form, but creativity will flourish with freedom.


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 23, 2009)

well, i agree, alot of people who couldn't get backing for their work will beable to get their work out there.

alot of bands have started using the net to get attention, where they couldnt get their works published under the RIAA's regime.

alot of torrent sites promote bands, one i spend alot of time on puts their works on the front page infact


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 23, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Mickey Mouse is property of Disney. It's an identity.


Disney doesn't own the billions of bits that represent every instance of "Mickey Mouse."  They only own the right to create new Mickey Mouse content.  That is, I can't make something and call it "Mickey Mouse" because I don't own that trademark/copyright.  Just by watching a DVD that features Mickey Mouse, your DVD player is copying those bits to a frame buffer to render it.  That, in itself, violates traditional copyright laws.  Not to mention, all those ebooks, by nature, violate copyright laws.  There is nothing to distinguish legal from non-legal copies except when a copyright holder points a finger and pouts at a specific case.  In which case, the end user usually gets screwed just because of the nature of the business (copy from CD/DVD to hard drive, copy from hard drive to RAM, copy from RAM to VRAM, copy from RAM to L3, copy from L3 to L2, copy from L2 to L1, write back to RAM, etc.).


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## troyrae360 (Apr 23, 2009)

COME on, the stuff people download is BlockBuster Movies mostley, now in those blockbuster movies there are people that are getting payed millions of dollers while the rest of us work our jobs (that all in all are just as important for socitiey, if not more important) for a small fraction of what these actors earn.
really it sickins me to see people strugeling so survive to feed there family, let alone take them all to the movies while some lawer is getting payed more for a months work trying to sue someone like TPB while another man works his guts out to make that same money in a year!!, im sure that same man would take his familey to the movies or rent a movie just as often as before the internet came along.
if i want a night out ill go to the movies, if i want to watch a movie at home ill hire it, if i want to download a movie i will but when i do it dosnt take away from my hireing or my night out so in that case its a win win situation
and at the end of the day, SO FUKEN WHAT IF Hugh Jackman or Tom Cruze or whoever only make 1mill instead of some crazey amount of money that would set the avarage man up for life. 
i could keep ranting but hopfully you all see where im coming from.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 23, 2009)

Time magazine just published the annual "what people make in a year" issue. Youy should read it.... It might have been Parade magazine.....??? But you get the point that wealth differences in the USA are rediculous and are getting worse. 

The cost of "goods"(milk, bread, etc.) go up, the wealthy get paid more, they pay there workers less because nobody stops them. Due to this "no regulation" atitude it will only get worse. I am not saying we can stop it though.


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## Triprift (Apr 23, 2009)

Yep thats the western world for you the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and every year the gap between the two seems to get bigger.


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 23, 2009)

Triprift said:


> Yep thats the western world for you the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and every year the gap between the two seems to get bigger.



That happens in all modern civilizations until a revolution. Revolutions are awful though.


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## troyrae360 (Apr 23, 2009)

DaedalusHelios said:


> That happens in all modern civilizations until a revolution. Revolutions are awful though.



well what about a mini revalotion, well more like in protest,we make a screener explning how we are all getting fukd over, we download the latest 5 blobkbusters, befor they are released, add the screener, burn 50 copys each and delever them into peoples letterboxs similtainsley over night.
 it might cost all us TPU users 20-50 dollers but it would be a great thing to do for socitey


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## FryingWeesel (Apr 23, 2009)

Viva la Revolucion!


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## DaedalusHelios (Apr 23, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> Viva la Revolucion!



Yeah, it was awful..... Davis and Arnold are bad.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 23, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> so you have no problem with ISOhunt then? because it was started as a simple torrent indexing and searching service reguardless of these "intellectual properties rights" people like you are so fond of.
> 
> Hate to tell you this but the mere concept of such rights dosnt excist in many cultures.
> 
> ...



I wonder if I should destroy this argument or not. I mean this guy was banned already? Would anyone care to hear a rebuttal or let this thing just die 

Also why was this guy banned anyway?


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## Mussels (Apr 23, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I wonder if I should destroy this argument or not. I mean this guy was banned already? Would anyone care to hear a rebuttal or let this thing just die
> 
> Also why was this guy banned anyway?



we dont discuss bans in public.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 23, 2009)

Mussels said:


> we dont discuss bans in public.



Sorry. I just didn't see his coming thats all. Meet me in the bathroom. I wanna know.


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

FryingWeesel said:


> Hate to tell you this but the mere concept of such rights dosnt excist in many cultures.



Which culture is the most successful on the planet ? Capitilism.



> The problem with people like you is that you think that because you created something that you should have to give your permission for them to even take a photo of it or to copy it, when infact the world thrives on copying , look at china, that place THRIVES on making clones/copy's of stuff other people create/invent.



So say you buy a car and according to your logic everyone is allowed to use it for whatever they want without your permission just because its yours and not theirs.



> Current copyright laws are NOT built for the world we live in, they where writen by greedy men who wanted to be payed every time sombody even viewed something they owned the copyright on be it a movie, music, or hell a damn picture.



Just because they are old doesn't mean they don't apply. These people are greedy in your eyes but they worked hard to earn that money and this is just jelousy on your part that your not one of these people. I envy these people who earn so much money because they work hard for it and they deserve every penny they earn.



> people should be compensated for their work, but not forever and IMHO things even software should go "public domain" after a set number of years, there are alot of older games that people would love to fix or re-make due to bugs but they cant because companys like atari and VUG hold onto the IP rights with a steal glove dispite admiting they never expect to make another game based on said IP rights because theres no profit in it for them.



Its thier software they can do as they please with it. If they chose to make it public domain that's their choice. They shouldn't be forced to do what you want becuase you don't want to pay for it.



> How is it fair to sell a game for ful retail, after pushing it out MONTHS early then not fixing it because you already got the bulk of your $ out of it, and when the community wants to fix it telling them in effect to "fuck off" because you own the "IP" for said game???



How is it fair that you suddenly have the right to steal their own work


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 23, 2009)

Dr. Pepper I just found out he was trollin. Don't waste your time. Anyway thanks for the backup


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Dr. Pepper I just found out he was trollin. Don't waste your time. Anyway thanks for the backup



I wish there were a few tall buildings I could throw myself off.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 23, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> I wish there were a few tall buildings I could throw myself off.


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## wakawakawaka (Apr 23, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> I wish there were a few tall buildings I could throw myself off.



i would pay to see that!!!


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

wakawakawaka said:


> i would pay to see that!!!



It will cost you to watch it though but if your a pirate then you'd probably just film it and torrent it because I want to make money out of something I made at my own expense


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Apr 23, 2009)

wakawakawaka said:


> i would pay to see that!!!



om nom nom


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

Most of this thread is made up of excuses for piracy. I mean why can't we just say yes we are stealing instead of making it about civil rights etc.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 23, 2009)

Because Michael Jackson didn't molest those children. He made love to them.


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because Michael Jackson didn't molest those children. He made love to them.



Wasn't he found innocent so technically he didn't in the eyes of they law 
I've downloaded stuff and yes I'd admit its wrong. Why did I do it ? I can't afford it right now and I will get it later but that doesn't excuse me or anyone.


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## wakawakawaka (Apr 23, 2009)

I do have a question for you guys tho.

In what other market is it perfectly fine to sell defective or incomplete products, promising a fix, and then not produce said fix?

If I where to do that at any of the jobs I have had Not only would I have been out of business, I would be in jail for fraud, yet software companies are allowed to get away with and the customer has zero recourse, you can  request a refund, but good luck getting it, best i have ever managed to get out of them is a voucher to get a free game or a discount on a game....

I feel its bs that they can do that, and we cant return defective products to the store directly for an instant refund.

but I know you feel its all good and well after all, they made the software/game, they have the right to not Finnish or support it and to keep our money in the process.

as to the stuff about old games and apps, those companies are no loosing any money by them being made public domain, since by the time that would happen, the game would be so old very few people would be playing it and nobody would be buying it.

a great example is the game starsiege, Dynamix was never allowed to finish the game, they where taken off the project and told to put more effort into tribes patches, the games where on the same engine, and alot of the updates could have been ported over to starsiege(updated/fixed open gl rendering for example) but sierra/vug didnt want that, starsiege wasnt selling well anymore, so they dumped it, dispite a community that ended up out living most games of its age(came out in 98 and still has online players today) 

If there was a 10 year copyright limit where after 10 years games/apps became public domain(not their source just the app) then somebody could update the game or even make a new version of it.

Now the way I see it, if the parent company is making games based on the older works/ip then there could be room for an extension, but really why would it be needed, they still aren't gonna be loosing anything by people having free access to a 10 year old game are they?

now to look at your logic even deeper, shouldn't the person who created the code be the one who has all rights to it, even if they where payed for it, this is by your logic.

just as a company should have forever rights to own and control anything they "create" shouldn't the person who actually created said product have the rights to it, no them being payed doesn't count, because even if i payed for a game/app by your logic my using a cracked exe file is piracy and illegal, because according to the EULA i dont own anything, im effectively renting the game/software from the company.

oh and little FYI, I have yet to see a major case where anybody was forced to live up to a EULA, enlarge because you cant read it b4 you open the package, making it an illegal contract(you agree to the eula the second you open the package, because you CANT return the software once its been opened.)

just wana know if you are willing to follow your own logic all the way, and if you feel its any more or less ethical to sell something thats defective/broken, promise to fix it, and then cut and run once you have peoples money then it is to copy games either via p2p or the like?


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## btarunr (Apr 23, 2009)

^Very nice points there, though software packages usually have URL to EULA printed on them if they have a "Once opened you agree to the EULA" clause. 

Microsoft Windows EULA says that if you declined to the agreement, you could return the software to the retailer for a full refund.


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## Perra (Apr 23, 2009)

http://www.icmpecho.com/2009/04/23/qp-judge-in-tpb-trial-has-conflicting-interests/

http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/nyhetssidor/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2054&format=1&artikel=2786591

Big surprise there eh? :shadedshu

Guess i'm voting pirate next election, Yarr!


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

wakawakawaka said:


> now to look at your logic even deeper, shouldn't the person who created the code be the one who has all rights to it, even if they where payed for it, this is by your logic.



No you are allowed to sell your IP to others for money. When these people start working for a publisher they will be told anything they create will be property of said publisher and their wages or salary is thier payment for creating this property. Since the IP was created on a publishers property e.g thier studios and hardware then yes it is the publishers.



> just as a company should have forever rights to own and control anything they "create" shouldn't the person who actually created said product have the rights to it, no them being payed doesn't count, because even if i payed for a game/app by your logic my using a cracked exe file is piracy and illegal, because according to the EULA i dont own anything, im effectively renting the game/software from the company.



When you pay for a game your not paying for the rights to the IP you are paying for the right to use it as the publisher see's fit. So yes by our logic them being payed does count, they signed a contract.



> oh and little FYI, I have yet to see a major case where anybody was forced to live up to a EULA, enlarge because you cant read it b4 you open the package, making it an illegal contract(you agree to the eula the second you open the package, because you CANT return the software once its been opened.)



I agree the EULA is messed up because you can't return it.



> just wana know if you are willing to follow your own logic all the way, and if you feel its any more or less ethical to sell something thats defective/broken, promise to fix it, and then cut and run once you have peoples money then it is to copy games either via p2p or the like?



The thing is the publishers don't promise it will work on your pc so it isn't fraud. Games that have flaws are just like cars that have flaws. It isn't broken it just needs improved. If they say it WILL work on every pc everywhere and it doesn't that is fraud.


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## Mussels (Apr 23, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> The thing is the publishers don't promise it will work on your pc so it isn't fraud. Games that have flaws are just like cars that have flaws. It isn't broken it just needs improved. If they say it WILL work on every pc everywhere and it doesn't that is fraud.



This is the only part of your post i disagree with.

They do have to sell a product "fit for purpose", if they sell a game with certain requriements on the box that you meet - then the game has to run. Examples here would be games that constantly crash, or games that dont work on a supposedly supported operating system.
(I have definately seen many things online for games that wont install on OS's other than XP, BFME II: rise of the witch king requires a community patch to install under vista, for example)


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## wakawakawaka (Apr 23, 2009)

btarunr said:


> ^Very nice points there, though software packages usually have URL to EULA printed on them if they have a "Once opened you agree to the EULA" clause.
> 
> Microsoft Windows EULA says that if you declined to the agreement, you could return the software to the retailer for a full refund.



hate to tell you this m8, but in the states they DO NOT TAKE IT BACK, the store wont take back any software you have opened PERIOD, they MAY let you exchange it for another one, that they open b4 you can leave the store.

Most software sold in the states(usa) is "if you opened the box, you agreed to the eula" so your pretty much screwed. you have the "right" to send the software back to the publisher with a receipt and they are spota pay you back but many of them do it via vouchers for anoter game or app, or the like.

effectivly , once you pay for it, and open it, your stuck with it.

I hear the UK has better laws, as to most other countrys, but well, I know all to well how it works in the states.


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## DrPepper (Apr 23, 2009)

Mussels said:


> This is the only part of your post i disagree with.
> 
> They do have to sell a product "fit for purpose", if they sell a game with certain requriements on the box that you meet - then the game has to run. Examples here would be games that constantly crash, or games that dont work on a supposedly supported operating system.
> (I have definately seen many things online for games that wont install on OS's other than XP, BFME II: rise of the witch king requires a community patch to install under vista, for example)



Well they don't promise it won't crash. As long as it runs even if it is badly on the said machine then they aren't doing anything wrong legally. I disagree with that myself but I was being unbiased. I think these companies should at least feel obligated to fix these things like other software companies do.



wakawakawaka said:


> I hear the UK has better laws, as to most other countrys, but well, I know all to well how it works in the states.



Last time I checked in the UK it was just as bad.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Apr 23, 2009)

Perra said:


> http://www.icmpecho.com/2009/04/23/qp-judge-in-tpb-trial-has-conflicting-interests/
> 
> Big surprise there eh?
> 
> Guess i'm voting pirate next election, Yarr!




I smell guano


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## btarunr (Apr 23, 2009)

wakawakawaka said:


> hate to tell you this m8, but in the states they DO NOT TAKE IT BACK, the store wont take back any software you have opened PERIOD, they MAY let you exchange it for another one, that they open b4 you can leave the store.
> 
> Most software sold in the states(usa) is "if you opened the box, you agreed to the eula" so your pretty much screwed. you have the "right" to send the software back to the publisher with a receipt and they are spota pay you back but many of them do it via vouchers for anoter game or app, or the like.
> 
> ...



Firstly, I'm stating what's in the EULA. You have every right to claim the money right from the retailer, and the retailer from his distributor, and high up. You are not approaching the company for your refund, hence the argument is void. 

Secondly, like I said, in cases where software vendors use a "once opened you agree to the EULA" policy, they have to provide you with the EULA before you open it. To do so, they print the URL to EULA published online, or provide the entire EULA printed, so you could read. In case you don't agree, you could return the software unopened. 

Also, neither of us have surveyed the market, so you can't generalize on an entire market....unless you're a surveying firm with a global footprint.


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## wakawakawaka (Apr 23, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> The thing is the publishers don't promise it will work on your pc so it isn't fraud. Games that have flaws are just like cars that have flaws. It isn't broken it just needs improved. If they say it WILL work on every pc everywhere and it doesn't that is fraud.



then what are system requierments?

what about games that constantly crash, or are unplayable online but are advertised for their online play?

what about games that have DRM that dosnt like your computer/os despite it being within the requirements on the box, making it impossible for you to play the game you payed for?

say I go out and buy quake5(just an example) it says i need 
core2duo or amd athlon64 x2 cpu
1gb of ram
256mb or better dx10 videocard
8gb free hdd space
dvd-rom drive
windows vista(ofcorse) 
I payed say 65usd for this game

I then toss the disk in and install, the game installer crashes a few times, but i eventuly get it installed.

I then go and load up my game, and get a message that the disk isn't genuine/orignal and as such I cant play the game.

Due to the EULA I cant take it back to the store and get my money back......

thats ok to you isnt it? I mean they didnt guarntee it would run on my 
athlon64 x2 6000+
6gb ddr2
512mb 9800gtx+
1+tb free space 
windows vista system did they?


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## wakawakawaka (Apr 23, 2009)

btarunr said:


> Firstly, I'm stating what's in the EULA. You have every right to claim the money right from the retailer, and the retailer from his distributor, and high up. You are not approaching the company for your refund, hence the argument is void.
> 
> Secondly, like I said, in cases where software vendors use a "once opened you agree to the EULA" policy, they have to provide you with the EULA before you open it. To do so, they print the URL to EULA published online, or provide the entire EULA printed, so you could read. In case you don't agree, you could return the software unopened.
> 
> Also, neither of us have surveyed the market, so you can't generalize on an entire market....unless you're a surveying firm with a global footprint.




i can tell you, in the states, no store will give you a refund on any ms product that's been opened, if you want your money back, you gotta contact Microsoft, and ship them the original package and receipt and wait for a refund(can take 6-9 months) 

stores in the states dont take open software back, they use to, but alot of publishers refused to refund the money to the store, using piracy and such as excuses, or they did the same 6+ month wait for a refund/replacement package that ms will with refunds on office or windows.

If you wish to know how I know this, I have worked retail, as well as bought plenty of software(Till i got sick of being ripped off....) 

ms is one of the easier ones to deal with, but they are still slow as hell......

never will understand how people can say its fine that company's do this shit to their customers, if i buy something, i bloody well own it, and expect it to get decent support or i expect my money back.


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## wakawakawaka (Apr 23, 2009)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> I smell guano



check ur upper lip   (you made that to easy.....)


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