# Z87 best board?



## petedread (Jun 6, 2013)

There are very few reviews for Z87 boards at the moment because it's only been a few days since it's release. Particularly, the high end boards have had almost no reviews yet. I've seen a brief review of the Asus Maximus Extreme VI, by Techtomorrow (formally motherboards.org). Looks like a very good board as we would expect. I've seen a review of the G1 sniper MATX. It did very well in the review and gives an idea of how well the full ATX board will perform. But so far no review of the full ATX board. Also no review of the Gigabyte Z87 GA-Z87X-OC Force, can't wait to see a review of this. I expect the guys here at TPU will be working on some reviews and I'm really looking forward to reading their opinion because I feel the TPU guys do the best most thorough reviews and for me their opinions hold a lot of weight.
 But for now, what do think are potentially the best Z87 2 or 3 OC boards available to man? With out considering price or demographical appeal. Also if anybody can point me to their favourite review site that would be appreciated.


----------



## RCoon (Jun 6, 2013)

petedread said:


> There are very few reviews for Z87 boards at the moment because it's only been a few days since it's release. Particularly, the high end boards have had almost no reviews yet. I've seen a brief review of the Asus Maximus Extreme VI, by Techtomorrow (formally motherboards.org). Looks like a very good board as we would expect. I've seen a review of the G1 sniper MATX. It did very well in the review and gives an idea of how well the full ATX board will perform. But so far no review of the full ATX board. Also no review of the Gigabyte GA-Z87X-OC Force Intel Z87, can't wait to see a review of this. I expect the guys here at TPU will be working on some reviews and I'm really looking forward to reading their opinion because I feel the TPU guys do the best most thorough reviews and for me their opinions hold a lot of weight.
> But for now, what do think are potentially the best Z87 2 or 3 OC boards available to man? With out considering price or demographical appeal. Also if anybody can point me to their favourite review site that would be appreciated.



Ask Dave


----------



## petedread (Jun 6, 2013)

Hoping he mite see this and reply


----------



## RCoon (Jun 6, 2013)

Asus Mini ITX ROG is my favourite so far though.

I dare say looks at the Z87 MPower, Asus P8 Delux, Maximus Hero etc


----------



## petedread (Jun 6, 2013)

The Asus deluxe and deluxe duel look good.

I'll google it now, thanks. Is that the Hero?

Looks good. I bet it's a great board at a great price.


----------



## sgs2008 (Jun 7, 2013)

Im personally trying to choose between the hero and the msi mpower


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 7, 2013)

Asus Maximus Extreme VI or Asus deluxe. The fancy looking MSI one is pretty nice too.


----------



## Arjai (Jun 7, 2013)

Asus...I'm using an ASUS laptop right now. It's great! However, I will not buy a currently made ASUS motherboard when MSI and GIGAByte have become so much better and more reliable.

I think, today, MSI is the best bet for a motherboard.

2 cents.


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 9, 2013)

Really most boards $150 and up will all get about the same OC. J.J from Asus even said most get the same results its up to the customer to choice what feature they want like WiFi , bluetooth and audio.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Really most boards $150 and up will all get about the same OC. J.J from Asus even said most get the same results its up to the customer to choice what feature they want like WiFi , bluetooth and audio.



Also, thermal considerations will also matter, as well as total maximum VRM output for those pushing to the max. Memory clocking will also matter, although that's mostly a BIOS thing. Most users need only change 3-4 settings for a decent OC, no matter what board, which is why all brands have tighter platform-focused designs.


----------



## bim27142 (Jun 10, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Asus Mini ITX ROG is my favourite so far though.




Me too! Powerful little bastard... 

However, I am now hesitant to jump to Haswell as I find this article rather disturbing...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...e_Hotter_and_Slower_Than_Expected_Report.html

Can someone validate this? Any retail owners already out there?


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 10, 2013)

I have a fixation with ASRock boards, even if they don't look cool or have amazing UEFI interfaces. It just seems they offer more features at certain price points than other manufacturers, although I could be rather biased. I was surprised to see dual Intel Ethernet jacks and HDMI passthrough on my   $170 Z87 Extreme6 along with the Realtek ALC 1150 and 10 SATA 6Gb/s ports. My board also has some fancy "dual-stack MOSFETs" that are supposed to be more efficient as well.


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 10, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Really most boards $150 and up will all get about the same OC. J.J from Asus even said most get the same results its up to the customer to choice what feature they want like WiFi , bluetooth and audio.



Yup, JJ said all boards perform equal in CPU benchies. IMO, Asus boards overpriced.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 10, 2013)

drdeathx said:


> Yup, JJ said all boards perform equal in CPU benchies.



I am pretty sure I heard him say "they all overclock the same", not "they all perform the same". Doesn't matter, I'll find out for myself.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jun 10, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> I have a fixation with ASRock boards, even if they don't look cool or have amazing UEFI interfaces. It just seems they offer more features at certain price points than other manufacturers, although I could be rather biased. I was surprised to see dual Intel Ethernet jacks and HDMI passthrough on my   $170 Z87 Extreme6 along with the Realtek ALC 1150 and 10 SATA 6Gb/s ports. My board also has some fancy "dual-stack MOSFETs" that are supposed to be more efficient as well.



I just wish the outside layer of the PCB was a bit thicker so that it would be more of a matte black PCB rather then a brownish, since the copper layer showing through the outer layer is what causes it to be more brown IIRC.



drdeathx said:


> Yup, JJ said all boards perform equal in CPU benchies. IMO, Asus boards overpriced.



Depends on what you out out of your board. Asus boards tend to have the best memory overclocking abilities.


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 10, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> I am pretty sure I heard him say "they all overclock the same", not "they all perform the same". Doesn't matter, I'll find out for myself.



Yes, I'm craving another review Cad. Do you know when ASUS will release the Maximus VI Gene or can you not say? I really want a good M-ATX board.


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 10, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> I am pretty sure I heard him say "they all overclock the same", not "they all perform the same". Doesn't matter, I'll find out for myself.



I had a personal conversation with him and in the benchmarks for boards, he was not overly concerned with CPU benchmarks as they will all be within 1% core for core. Asus loves benchmarks where Asus boards shine such as Asmedia controller, PCIE(GPU) benchies, Memory, ect.....


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 10, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Yes, I'm craving another review Cad. Do you know when ASUS will release the Maximus VI Gene or can you not say? I really want a good M-ATX board.



It's not out yet? Crap, I have one sitting here. Keep in mind what I posted above. 



drdeathx said:


> I had a personal conversation with him and in the benchmarks for boards, he was not overly concerned with CPU benchmarks as they will all be within 1% core for core. Asus loves benchmarks where Asus boards shine such as Asmedia controller, PCIE(GPU) benchies, Memory, ect.....



And I've already got the ASUS boards, here in my livingroom. I don't talk to JJ via professional channels, just on forums, but I don't give a crap about what he said "in person". I'm only interested in public information. There's nothing to hide here, everything is already wide out in the open, IMHO.

Except this whole ES thing...but I might have even have had boards before he did. Not htat that matters, he's very good at what he does, there's no doubt in that.

Also, I'm pretty sure it wasn't JJ doing all the testing with retail chips. That's someone else's job. He merely takes that info and relates it in a palatable manner. He does this is his video guide with Newegg, and says "all boards should overclock equal", which is what we were talking about before you barged in.


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 10, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> It's not out yet? Crap, I have one sitting here. Keep in mind what I posted above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, benchmarks show on all platforms with both AMD and Intel, CPU benchmarks are very close core for core on all boards. Where Asus shines a bit better is using such things like the ASMedia controller and using more lanes on the board. When those lanes get saturated, Asus does a better job in some instances. The days of having a magic board that overclocks better is over. Overclocking now as you know dave is CPU dependent not board dependent. Yes, low power phase boards may not have an easytime achieving max overclock on a processor but I will say, for extreme overclockers using exotic cooling, Asus bios is second to none with voltage adjustments, LLC and memory overclocking for those looking to get top notch scores on HWBOT.

For the average user through the overclocker not looking to use exotic cooling, all idrange boards from Asus, Gigabyte, ASRock and MSI will overlock within 100MHz or even closer, and performance wise will be very close looking at all benchmarks. Do some shine a bit more on a few benchmarks, yes but most will trade blows.

As far as barging in..... The beauty of a thread is you can say what you feel. Take it or leave it... The OP iis asking what is the best board and this information is relavent to his asking, so this is NOT barging in as you say.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 10, 2013)

drdeathx said:


> performance wise will be very close looking at all benchmarks



This is not true, or else, I'd have not received special BIOSes to fix that issue, actually. Just sayin'.

Please do keep in mind I play no brand favorites. There are big differences between boards. Not in OC, yes, and you're right, that's nothing new.



drdeathx said:


> so this is NOT barging in as you say.



meh, btw, did you have a good weekend?


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 10, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> This is not true, or else, I'd have not received special BIOSes to fix that issue, actually. Just sayin'.
> 
> Please do keep in mind I play no brand favorites. There are big differences between boards. Not in OC, yes, and you're right, that's nothing new.



I will say, you are very good with not biasing to one brand or another.


LOLO, my weekend sucked but was good in 1 way, Chicago Blackhawks made it to Stanley Cup. LOL no Canadian team made it... LOLOLOL


----------



## petedread (Jun 11, 2013)

Arjai said:


> Asus...I'm using an ASUS laptop right now. It's great! However, I will not buy a currently made ASUS motherboard when MSI and GIGAByte have become so much better and more reliable.
> 
> I think, today, MSI is the best bet for a motherboard.
> 
> 2 cents.



I'm being tempted away from Asus too. I was almost sold on the Gigabyte Z87 OC Formula, but then I saw the G1 Sniper 5 with it's great audio feature. It would have been great if the OC formula had that too. As Dave said, tighter platform-focused designs. It's a tough call. Would that OC formula give me an edge in overclocking? 

 I use Cubase every day.So outstanding audio is right up my street. The reason I got into high end PC's is because a few years ago you needed a powerful machine to run Cubase smoothly.


----------



## petedread (Jun 11, 2013)

Just read this.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/ne..._audio_z87_maximus_vi_formula_motherboard2013

Then saw this.

http://forums.pureoverclock.com/general-hardware/21126-asus-maximus-vi-formula-z87.html


----------



## ZenEffect. (Jun 17, 2013)

ASRock Z87 OC Forumula

nuff said.


----------



## maijaron (Jun 22, 2013)

wow many answers but nobody thought about the real one.

Biostar Hi-Fi Z87X 3D. thats the board you are looking for


----------



## shovenose (Jun 22, 2013)

I like my MSI Z87M-G43. But its not a super high end board.


----------



## MegaMan (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm looking at getting the Asus Maximus VI Gene in the next few weeks.
I've already had great luck with the past two Asus boards that I've bought.


----------



## HammerON (Jun 23, 2013)

I personally like the MSI GD65 Gaming motherboard. Lots of features and is priced right.
In regards to favorite review site, it is right here and provided by Cadaveca


----------



## petedread (Jun 23, 2013)

Must admit I'm not really sold on the Biostar. The ASrock looks good though.


----------



## radrok (Jun 23, 2013)

It really depends on what you seek in a board, that's what matters into claiming it the "best".


----------



## petedread (Jun 23, 2013)

HammerON said:


> I personally like the MSI GD65 Gaming motherboard. Lots of features and is priced right.
> In regards to favorite review site, it is right here and provided by Cadaveca


Indeed, this is by far the best review site. But Dave and the guys are very busy with a stack of stuff to review, so, sometimes there is a product I would like to see a review of but it's not been reviewed on TPU yet. If I'm in a hurry to see a review of something before I buy it I have to look around the net. I should rephrase the question, "what are your second best review sites?"


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 23, 2013)

petedread said:


> "what are your second best review sites?"



Any site not using ES chips. Sites with ES chips are development/testing partners with specific board companies, and truly are highly biased. That's why they have ES chips in the first place. Site like TPU with retail chips had to get them through alternate means, like myself, I had to wait until just before the launch when Intel was shipping out retail chips before I got the two I have now.

In the end, bias like this isn't really a big deal, you just need to know where that bias comes from, and where it's directed to. I'd suggest Anandtech as the singular review site with ES chips that is NOT biased when it comes to motherboards...they are just biased towards Intel a bit, and that's no secret.


I have several boards here that OEMs asked me what I wanted, and now I see what I wanted directly in these products. Either they gave me what I want, or what I asked for many others were asking for as well. That said, there are clear and obvious design choices to me that reflect this with every board...like each brand went to sites like here, asked reviewers what they wanted, and then made a product directed at that site's traffic.

When I report stuff to OEMs, I report what you guys tell me, with my own "technical" spin added on to justify why you guys want those changes. So there is no "Best Board for Intel Z87"....there are many many fantastic boards, each that are designed to meet the needs of specific users. The board that is good for you, probably won't be good for everyone. The crowd here does seem to be astute enough to understand that just simply stuffing features on a board till it's got no room for anything else isn't really much special...which makes most high-end boards that some may say are the "best", not the best, here.



The MSI Z87-GD65 GAMING is very perfectly targeted at the audience here, and does significantly meet the needs of most Z87 users. It clocks well, has decent performance, and is relatively light on the wallet. Is it the best board ever? Nope. I have changed how I do my scoring this round, and the MSI Z87-GD65 got a 9.0 and Editor's choice award. It didn't get a 10/10.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 23, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Any site not using ES chips. Sites with ES chips are development/testing partners with specific board companies, and truly are highly biased. That's why they have ES chips in the first place. Site like TPU with retail chips had to get them through alternate means, like myself, I had to wait until just before the launch when Intel was shipping out retail chips before I got the two I have now.
> 
> In the end, bias like this isn't really a big deal, you just need to know where that bias comes from, and where it's directed to. I'd suggest Anandtech as the singular review site with ES chips that is NOT biased when it comes to motherboards...they are just biased towards Intel a bit, and that's no secret.
> 
> ...



Which ones, if any got 10?


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 23, 2013)

tigger said:


> Which ones, if any got 10?



I've never given such a score. It's pretty much impossible for a board to get one, mostly for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.


I don't make any money doing this. OEMs don't pay me, they send me hardware to play with. Sometimes, I have to send it back. W1zzard pays me a small fee per review, which barely covers the power used by my test PCs, and my beer every week. All of that is perfectly fine.

I love playing with hardware. That's why I do reviews..so I can play with lots of different hardware. I've only learned a few things since I started; one is that it is really hard to find ways to separate board products from one another, and that BIOSes are the most critical part of a board. Yet, these OEMs do seem to do a great job doing what might otherwise seem impossible. There's always _something_ one board does better than others. Which means that each board has something it _doesn't_ do. Perfection is hard to find in such circumstances.


----------



## radrok (Jun 23, 2013)

Reason for: if you ever give a 10 be sure I'll be buying that board


----------



## petedread (Jun 23, 2013)

I knew when I posed the question that there is no such thing as a best board, just peoples opinions. But that's what I like. People will tell you which board they like and why. This thread has helped me build up a picture of my options, and pointed me to boards I mite not have considered before.  
 A while ago I clicked on a link to a review that someone here on TPU had posted. It was a good review, I read a few other reviews on the site and I really liked them all but I can't remember the sites name. I was hoping I mite find it again by asking for peoples favourite review sites.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 23, 2013)

As far as I'm concerned, the best Z87 board is the MSI Z87-GD65 GAMING.


----------



## Grnfinger (Jun 23, 2013)

tigger said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the best Z87 board is the MSI Z87-GD65 GAMING.




I have owned every Maximus series and would really like to give that MSI board a run
All weekend sitting here wondering if I should sell my Ivy board/chip and sidegrade


----------



## petedread (Jun 23, 2013)

tigger said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the best Z87 board is the MSI Z87-GD65 GAMING.



Lot of people loving this board.



> I have owned every Maximus series and would really like to give that MSI board a run
> All weekend sitting here wondering if I should sell my Ivy board/chip and sidegrade



Wish I had the patients to wait for the Maximus Formula.


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 23, 2013)

MSi has stepped up their game IMO. From the Z77 through the Z87 boards they overclock as good as any. They revamped their UEFI bios a few generations ago and it has everything under the hood you enthusiasts need on the GD65. OC Genie is also great and if I am not mistakin, hits 4.2 or 4.3GHz with the push of a button. As dave mentioned, what makes the GD65 sweet is the price tag which is icing on the cake. 


IMHO, the high end Maximus ASUS' boards are only worthwhile if extreme overclocking with Dice or LN2 but these MSI boards will probably exterme overclock pretty damn close to the ASUS boards with MSI's Military components.


----------



## shovenose (Jun 23, 2013)

drdeathx said:


> MSi has stepped up their game IMO. From the Z77 through the Z87 boards they overclock as good as any. They revamped their UEFI bios a few generations ago and it has everything under the hood you enthusiasts need on the GD65. OC Genie is also great and if I am not mistakin, hits 4.2 or 4.3GHz with the push of a button. As dave mentioned, what makes the GD65 sweet is the price tag which is icing on the cake.
> 
> 
> IMHO, the high end Maximus ASUS' boards are only worthwhile if extreme overclocking with Dice or LN2 but these MSI boards will probably exterme overclock pretty damn close to the ASUS boards with MSI's Military components.



MSI has been impressing me overall lately. I sent them a little note of appreication to their support email praising them but with a small suggestion, and they said thank you and we'll look into it  Literally got that response an hour later.


----------



## Grnfinger (Jun 23, 2013)

petedread said:


> Lot of people loving this board.
> 
> 
> 
> Wish I had the patients to wait for the Maximus Formula.



MVIE is in stock at NCIX or so they claim and so is the Hero.

I'm looking at the Extreme for the OC panel, yes I'm a sucker for things like that.


----------



## SonDa5 (Jun 26, 2013)

Just ordered the Gigabyte Z87X-OC.


Choosing a Z87 MB was a hard choice for me because of the pricing and the many features Z87 MB come with. The lack luster over clocking ability of HW with ambient temp cooling has also made choosing a Z87 MB tough.


I narrowed down my top 3 choices for my budget to the Asus ROG VI Hero, MSI Z87 Mpower Max and the Z87X-OC.  I'm not sure I made the right choice.  I like all of them but I went with the Z87X-OC mainly with hopes of being able to over clock a Haswell cpu the most.

I not only enjoy ambient temp over clocking but I also enjoy gaming.  I have an external headphone amp for audio and I prefer hard wired connection for NIC so that helped make a decision with the less feature Z87X-OC. 


Haven't ordered HW cpu yet and I'm still not sure if I will get a 4670k or a 4770k.  I plan on delidding.


Buying into Haswell doesn't make good sense to me since I have a nice 5GHZ 3770k gaming RIG.  Mainly did this for the challenge of over clocking HW and tweaking fun.  Hope I made the right choice.  I feel very uncertain about Haswell.



Going to give it an honest effort and hopefully I will have some success with HW.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 26, 2013)

I'll be ordering the msi gd86 gaming soon, just got a cheque from HM revenue and customs for £272  Think it will bounce?


----------



## bengraham (Jun 27, 2013)

Just a question: whats so special with the MSI board that everybody loves it so much?


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 27, 2013)

bengraham said:


> Just a question: whats so special with the MSI board that everybody loves it so much?



Read my review:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z87-GD65_GAMING/


----------



## Kursah (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey Dave you gonna review the Asus Z87-Pro? 

That's the one I ordered due to the recent Newegg deal where I saved $100 when buying it and a 4770k combo - Limited Time Offer on 4th Gen Intel® Core&trade; C... . 

From the comparisons I read it seemed to be the most stable clocker, but I'd like to see what a professional TPU review has to say about that. I wish they would've had the MSI 65...but they only had the 45. Which is still a sweet looking board but of those 4 and my research I felt the most confident in the Asus. Maybe it's just brand preference...though I was close to choosing the ASrock board.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 27, 2013)

Kursah said:


> Hey Dave you gonna review the Asus Z87-Pro?
> 
> That's the one I ordered due to the recent Newegg deal where I saved $100 when buying it and a 4770k combo - Limited Time Offer on 4th Gen Intel® Core&trade; C... .
> 
> From the comparisons I read it seemed to be the most stable clocker, but I'd like to see what a professional TPU review has to say about that. I wish they would've had the MSI 65...but they only had the 45. Which is still a sweet looking board but of those 4 and my research I felt the most confident in the Asus. Maybe it's just brand preference...though I was close to choosing the ASrock board.



Last time I got quite a few "normal" ASUS boards, but this time, I only have one, the Z87-A. I also have three ROG boards(Hero, Gene, and Extreme), the Gryphon, which was published a while ago, and the Sabertooth. There is an MSI board review waiting to hit the front page that I finished earlier this week, and next after that is the ASUS Maximus VI Hero. I am using the Maximus VI Extreme for memory testing right this second; it will get a full review as well as being used for those memory reviews, so you'll see lots of that board. I will explain why I made that choice in the first review memory, which is nearly done now. I had hoped to have that live this week, but we had some serious weather locally that caused some delays on my end( I've been spending some considerable time getting water out of my basement). I also have contractors coming to work on my house in the morning (gotta get the leaky basement fixed), which hasn't helped any either, since I've also had to move stuff out of their way so they can get the work done. And...tomorrow is the last day of school for all of my kids, so they are going to be home all day, every day, from Friday on-wards(my oldest son's "grad" was yesterday). So, yeah, I got a full plate already and I won't be adding any boards into my immediate review schedule any time soon.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 27, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Last time I got quite a few "normal" ASUS boards, but this time, I only have one, the Z87-A. I also have three ROG boards(Hero, Gene, and Extreme), the Gryphon, which was published a while ago, and the Sabertooth. There is an MSI board review waiting to hit the front page that I finished earlier this week, and next after that is the ASUS Maximus VI Hero. I am using the Maximus VI Extreme for memory testing right this second; it will get a full review as well as being used for those memory reviews, so you'll see lots of that board. I will explain why I made that choice in the first review memory, which is nearly done now. I had hoped to have that live this week, but we had some serious weather locally that caused some delays on my end( I've been spending some considerable time getting water out of my basement). I also have contractors coming to work on my house in the morning (gotta get the leaky basement fixed), which hasn't helped any either, since I've also had to move stuff out of their way so they can get the work done. And...tomorrow is the last day of school for all of my kids, so they are going to be home all day, every day, from Friday on-wards(my oldest son's "grad" was yesterday). So, yeah, I got a full plate already and I won't be adding any boards into my immediate review schedule any time soon.



I have been looking at 3 boards, 

Asus Z87 deluxe
Msi GD67 Gaming
Asus maximus hero

Which in your opinion is the cherry, considering I will be getting a  I5 4670k and will probs want to have a bash at oc'ing it?

Thanks

Tigger


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 27, 2013)

With the Hero review being so close, I don't want to talk about it, or I might end up repeating myself in the review, and that's not cool.

I don't have the deluxe, so no comments there, either (I strive to not comment about stuff I haven't got in my house, period). 

I'm a little torn; I want to answer your question, but really, it's not possible for me to do so fairly right now. I love ASUS. I owe some of their staff more than I'll ever admit. I don't like MSI that much, honestly, but these Z87 GAMING boards are damn good, regardless of how I feel about other things. I gave the Z87-GD65 GAMING a 9/10 and editor's choice, and for a sub-$200 board, that is a very high award. Computex recognized the board with an award as well. You'll find many many Haswell buyers already got this product, it actually really surprises me a bit that it is so successful, and if I didn't have one, I'd think they'd be pulling some questionable marketing...but they aren't. the board is just good. BIOS needs a bit of work, a little bit, and they know how to fix it(I assume, I did tell them what points need to be addressed). A better BIOS, and I would have given it a 9.5.


have I told you..I love Dragons?


----------



## neliz (Jun 27, 2013)

shovenose said:


> MSI has been impressing me overall lately. I sent them a little note of appreication to their support email praising them but with a small suggestion, and they said thank you and we'll look into it  Literally got that response an hour later.



Hey man, can you PM me that suggestion as well? I'd like to track that 



tigger said:


> Which in your opinion is the cherry, considering I will be getting a  I5 4670k and will probs want to have a bash at oc'ing it?



IMHO the 4670K is not the best choice if you want to do  some nice OC. Intel has done their CPU binning very well and it's rare to see a 4670K out-OC a 4770K. just my $0.02



cadaveca said:


> I don't like MSI that much


I  you too Dave


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 27, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> With the Hero review being so close, I don't want to talk about it, or I might end up repeating myself in the review, and that's not cool.
> 
> I don't have the deluxe, so no comments there, either (I strive to not comment about stuff I haven't got in my house, period).
> 
> I'm a little torn; I want to answer your question, but really, it's not possible for me to do so fairly right now. I love ASUS. I owe some of their staff more than I'll ever admit. I don't like MSI that much, honestly, but these Z87 GAMING boards are damn good, regardless of how I feel about other things. I gave the Z87-GD65 GAMING a 9/10 and editor's choice, and for a sub-$200 board, that is a very high award. Computex recognized the board with an award as well. You'll find many many Haswell buyers already got this product, it actually really surprises me a bit that it is so successful, and if I didn't have one, I'd think they'd be pulling some questionable marketing...but they aren't.



I will wait to read your Hero review at least. I love Asus too, all my last board buys have been Asus and I have never been dissapointed. I am torn you see, the MSI sounds so good but it's not Asus, and for me to not buy Asus is quite something.



neliz said:


> Hey man, can you PM me that suggestion as well? I'd like to track that
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO the 4670K is not the best choice if you want to do  some nice OC. Intel has done their CPU binning very well and it's rare to see a 4670K out-OC a 4770K. just my $0.02



I know what ya saying, but I just cannot afford a 4770k, remember I am coming from a Q8200 The last PC I had before this was a I5-2400, so whatever I get is going to be stellar compared to what I have/have had previously. A massive OC is not really that important tbh, if I can get 4ghz out of the 4670k I will be happy.

Personally, running these modern cpu's at 4ghz+ I find a little pointless nowadays, I have done my share of overclocking in the past and enjoy it, but a good modern cpu will run anything now even stock.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 27, 2013)

neliz said:


> I  you too Dave



I could talk about my issues in public, but that won't go over well for either of us.


That also gives some perspective for the respect I have your products, don't ruin that.



tigger said:


> I will wait to read your Hero review at least. I love Asus too, all my last board buys have been Asus and I have never been dissapointed. I am torn you see, the MSI sounds so good but it's not Asus, and for me to not buy Asus is quite something.



I hear your "pain". Much respect for waiting; it will be worth it. Testing on that board is done, jstu gotta edit pictures, make graphs, write it up..oh yeah, that's more than half the work. XD


----------



## neliz (Jun 27, 2013)

tigger said:


> if I can get 4ghz out of the 4670k I will be happy.



I thought that when you said OC, you wanted to aim for 4.6 and up 

4 GHz is pretty basic, I think your issues will start at 4.3 and up hen OC'ing.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 27, 2013)

neliz said:


> I thought that when you said OC, you wanted to aim for 4.6 and up
> 
> 4 GHz is pretty basic, I think your issues will start at 4.3 and up then OC'ing.



I used to go for max oc's, look at the e6300 in my sig, but now I'm not so fussed. I just want a K cpu to have a play with, not to crank the max. Don't get me wrong, I will see what I can get out of it, but it will not be running maxxed out 24/7, I just think there is no need anymore.


----------



## Boozad (Jun 27, 2013)

Loving my Sabertooth Z87. Fantastic board.


----------



## SonDa5 (Jun 28, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> have I told you..I love Dragons?





Gigabyte Z87X-OC is not a good choice for best Z87. It offers limited features with highly marketed claims of being an Over Clocking grade mother board yet uses cheap VRM parts found on much less prices mother boards from Gigabyte.  If gigabyte would have used the IR3550 VRM power part then it would be worth the price.


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Jun 28, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> I have several boards here that OEMs asked me what I wanted, and now I see what I wanted directly in these products. Either they gave me what I want, or what I asked for many others were asking for as well. That said, there are clear and obvious design choices to me that reflect this with every board...like each brand went to sites like here, asked reviewers what they wanted, and then made a product directed at that site's traffic.
> 
> When I report stuff to OEMs, I report what you guys tell me, with my own "technical" spin added on to justify why you guys want those changes.



If that's true can you ask MSI to switch to true black for their pcb dye on cards and motherboards? I find this dark brown really unappealing. I stopped considering their cards because of it, the exception being if it had a backplate.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GeForce_GTX_760_TF_Gaming/images/back.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z87-GD65_GAMING/images/socket_coolers.jpg

Compared to:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/Z87X-OC/images/renesas_usb3.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/GTX_760_SC_ACX_Cooler/images/back.jpg


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jun 28, 2013)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> If that's true can you ask MSI to switch to true black for their pcb dye on cards and motherboards? I find this dark brown really unappealing. I stopped considering their cards because of it, the exception being if it had a backplate.
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GeForce_GTX_760_TF_Gaming/images/back.jpg
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z87-GD65_GAMING/images/socket_coolers.jpg
> ...




Its because the top layer of the PCB is thin and the copper layer is showing though. They just need to make the top layer thicker and itll be the matte black PCB like all the rest. AsRock needs to do the same thing.


----------



## Knight091 (Jun 29, 2013)

petedread said:


> There are very few reviews for Z87 boards at the moment because it's only been a few days since it's release. Particularly, the high end boards have had almost no reviews yet. I've seen a brief review of the Asus Maximus Extreme VI, by Techtomorrow (formally motherboards.org). Looks like a very good board as we would expect. I've seen a review of the G1 sniper MATX. It did very well in the review and gives an idea of how well the full ATX board will perform. But so far no review of the full ATX board. Also no review of the Gigabyte Z87 GA-Z87X-OC Force, can't wait to see a review of this. I expect the guys here at TPU will be working on some reviews and I'm really looking forward to reading their opinion because I feel the TPU guys do the best most thorough reviews and for me their opinions hold a lot of weight.
> But for now, what do think are potentially the best Z87 2 or 3 OC boards available to man? With out considering price or demographical appeal. Also if anybody can point me to their favourite review site that would be appreciated.




It would be this... NEVER cheap out on a motherboard....it will bite you in the ass later..... 

ASUS MAXIMUS VI EXTREME LGA 1150 

ASUS MAXIMUS VI EXTREME LGA 1150 Intel Z87 HDMI SA...


----------



## zocksi (Jun 29, 2013)

I am personally trying to decide between the Msi GD65 Gaming and the Asus Pro. I am waiting to the see the Asus Pro being reviewed here to be able to have a good article/review comparision to the existing GD65.

Going from other Sources, seems the Asus Pro is winning the edge.. I know they are both actually aimed to different People, but still overall seems the Asus Pro is being the winner by a slight margin.

Beside that, some talk about msi not bein reliable and people loving Asus.

Desicions, Desicions


----------



## springs113 (Jun 29, 2013)

zocksi said:


> I am personally trying to decide between the Msi GD65 Gaming and the Asus Pro. I am waiting to the see the Asus Pro being reviewed here to be able to have a good article/review comparision to the existing GD65.
> 
> Going from other Sources, seems the Asus Pro is winning the edge.. I know they are both actually aimed to different People, but still overall seems the Asus Pro is being the winner by a slight margin.
> 
> ...



I don't know about msi not being reliable.  I've bought  over 50  something msi  board  and  owned at least 20  ranging  from  amd thoroughbred/Pentium 3  days  to  now phenom2/haswell.  from amd chipsets to nvidia  to Intel  and have only  had one board failed on me DOA.  
 The Msi gd65  can't be beat for its features  at that price,I think only Asrock comes close to the bang for your buck.   if you have a microcenter bar  by then that board can be had for 120 with the  purchase of a haswell  processor


----------



## maijaron (Jun 30, 2013)

Knight091 said:


> It would be this... NEVER cheap out on a motherboard....it will bite you in the ass later.....
> 
> ASUS MAXIMUS VI EXTREME LGA 1150
> 
> ASUS MAXIMUS VI EXTREME LGA 1150 Intel Z87 HDMI SA...



Umm. of course you should look for quality at all. But honestly it feels that many manufacturer are just overloaded with their blast of features they are offering. WHat does a good motherboard help if the software is not stable at all to use it all day long?

I think you could still buy a decent board from biostar or asrock that is not highend and provides stable experience including the software.

regarding Z87: there are not many boards available yet


----------



## maijaron (Jun 30, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Read my review:
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z87-GD65_GAMING/



Nice one! but the price is ouch too


----------



## WHOFOUNDFUNGUS (Jul 28, 2013)

*What's so Great about Haswell?*

They promised us better energy efficiency. We barely got it. They promised us better performance. That is debatable. They promised us a cooler chip. That really depends on what it is compared to. Sure, the 22 nm die and tri-gate transistor technology is a great advancement — for them. Now they can cut more chips out of the same material to maximize production. How does this benefit the consumer? To boot, an 1150 socket can only handle four dims of ram. So much for the 64GB memory bank. Definitely not a desktop chip. 

My Thermaltake Level 10 GT case has been sitting in the closet, vacant, for months, waiting for a worthy motherboard and processor along with a collection of other brand new components. It could be a long wait. All this for an improvement of barely a 10% increase in performance I THINK NOT. Looks like I'll be using this i7 920 in my X58 mobo for some time yet.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 28, 2013)

WHOFOUNDFUNGUS said:


> Now they can cut more chips out of the same material to maximize production.



Actuallyy, no, since Haswell-based chips are LARGER than IVB chips, and are on the same process as IVB chips. Any of the rest, to me, is due to poorly set expectations. But I personally didn't have these expectations




WHOFOUNDFUNGUS said:


> How does this benefit the consumer?


Greater functionality and performance at the same cost?



WHOFOUNDFUNGUS said:


> Definitely not a desktop chip.



Definitely not a desktop HIGH-PERFORMANCE chip. This is a mainstream chip. IT's not meant to be Intel's fastest, never was. 1155/1150, they have iGP for a reason...when has a real PERFORAMNCE chip had an IGP?  



WHOFOUNDFUNGUS said:


> All this for an improvement of barely a 10% increase in performance I THINK NOT. Looks like I'll be using this i7 920 in my X58 mobo for some time yet.




920 is a good chip, for sure. But I think my Haswell chips WILL outperform your 920, by quite a bit. The question is what will sue that added grunt, and you'd be right to think that it won't really be much.

The biggest difference, is that with a 920, at stock, it's a bit underperforming. They are pretty good at 4 GHz and up, however. Yet I find that Haswell performs like a 4 GHz 920...at stock.


----------



## petedread (Jul 29, 2013)

Knight091 said:


> It would be this... NEVER cheap out on a motherboard....it will bite you in the ass later.....
> 
> ASUS MAXIMUS VI EXTREME LGA 1150
> 
> ASUS MAXIMUS VI EXTREME LGA 1150 Intel Z87 HDMI SA...


This was the fist Z87 board I got. I sent it back because it didn't have much to offer me personally. I don't know anything about overclocking memory and I'm only looking for a decent CPU overclock using the basic bios controls. As far as I could see this board was for hardcore overclockers, granted it would be a solid board too but I wanted a bit more so I sent it back and got the G1 Sniper 5. For my money I got 2 16x PCI lanes. Great audio. Good Ethernet. Durable board. And as much (or as little) overclocking capability as I like.
If I had decided to get a overclocking board I would have got the Gigabyte OCx Force, just to try something other than Asus for a change. It seems to me like Asus aren't the only option anymore.


----------



## SonDa5 (Jul 31, 2013)

I have just about given up on the Z87X-OC.  It doesn't over clock well on ambient temp cooling and the VRM uses the same parts found on much cheaper mother boards like the Z87X-UD3 and Z87X-UD4.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 31, 2013)

SonDa5 said:


> I have just about given up on the Z87X-OC.  It doesn't over clock well on ambient temp cooling and the VRM uses the same parts found on much cheaper mother boards like the Z87X-UD3 and Z87X-UD4.



You're not going to really get better air-based clocking on other boards. Haswell is all about BCLK and memory OC, not so much CPU speed. Where CPU speed is lacking, AVX2 instructions make up for the lack of performance. You really need phase-based cooling to get the most out of Haswell.

Haswell has 153 W limit, so VRM isn't actually that big of a deal for OC any more. IOT matters a bit, of course, but I think it's more about keeping the heat from the VRM soaking into the CPU, with high-end VRMs today, than anything else. Better VRm might also make FIVR work a bit less, and make for less heat at CPU package...


----------



## SonDa5 (Jul 31, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> You're not going to really get better air-based clocking on other boards.





I think more VRMs working less would help.  The best ambient cooled boards for haswell have more than 8 phases for the CPU.  

I'm still tweaking this MB but if I don't see some improvements I'm going to try something different.


----------



## cadaveca (Jul 31, 2013)

SonDa5 said:


> The best ambient cooled boards for haswell have more than 8 phases for the CPU.



Says who?


Because I have most mid-high-end boards here, have reviewed many already, and I don't find VRMs to really have any effect in OC potential. I am also NOT having issues with high-speed CPU and memory at the same time, as others report, nor do I find AIDA64 testing to be bad, as others report, nor do I find Haswell underwhelming, as others do. There's lots of BS floating around. That's a big part of why I LOVE Haswell.


Do please keep in mind that 153W. There are boards out there with just three or four phases this time around, FYI, so really, 8-phase boards, pushing what is really 20W per phase at high load, are not something that is really a problem.

When you enable LN2 mode on these boards, OCP and OVP limits are removed, and at that point, VRM may play a role, but we are talking at the extreme max, not 24/7 use. 24/7 use shouldn't exceed that 153 W.

Overclocking with Haswell is very difficult, however. If you are having problems, it is more likely to be the chip, not the board. For me, it is OTHER features of boards that include more phases that make them better, IMHO. It really depends on what you are looking for. The Z87X-OC is a benching board, not a 24-7 board. I call it "the racer" for a reason. It wasn't ME that told you this was a great board for 24/7 OC. It's a cheap board for benching, so you don't have to pay $400 for similar capabilities like we've had to with past paltforms. All brands have similar boards, and I have them here on my shelf.


----------



## SonDa5 (Aug 1, 2013)

How exactly is 153 watt electrically  calculated  for 4770k and how does extreme cool and low resistance vrm effect 4770k?  What conditions were set for 153 watt rating of 4770k?  How does DC power with multi phases harmonically balanced effect 4770k?


----------



## petedread (Aug 1, 2013)

@SonDa5, I said the Z87x OC Force. But even the Z87x OC is being praised by professional overclockers (Sin, Dinno).

I'm looking forward to seeing Dave's review of the G1 Sniper 5. Gigabyte have made it seem like a great board but I've read some horror storeys. Mine is fine. But I want to see if it lives up to Gigabytes hype.


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 1, 2013)

SonDa5 said:


> How exactly is 153 watt electrically calculated for 4770k and how does extreme cool and low resistance vrm effect 4770k? What conditions were set for 153 watt rating of 4770k?



If you don't know where I got that info from, well, it's from Intel documents, so you'd have to ask them those questions, or read the platform whitepapers yourself. Something like that...I got from somewhere, or simply I just make stuff up as I please.  As an overclocker, it's your duty to read this stuff.


----------



## WHOFOUNDFUNGUS (Aug 2, 2013)

*What's so Great about Haswell?*



cadaveca said:


> Actuallyy, no, since Haswell-based chips are LARGER than IVB chips, and are on the same process as IVB chips. Any of the rest, to me, is due to poorly set expectations. But I personally didn't have these expectations
> 
> I was comparing to Sandy Bridge.
> 
> ...



Can't wait to gift it to the wife. She's starting to push the envelope on her old duo core and nearly ready for an inheritance. Looks to me like that X79 still has promise after all. I'm wondering if the native USB 3 will be an available option on the newer boards. Ayeeup... The LGA 2011 IBE =  proactivity for me!  Cheers, comrade! This Canuck can wait.


----------



## Flash (Aug 4, 2013)

Personally I don't want to go with an ASUS. They might be good boards but a friend had a problem with his, and his RMA experience was horrible. He ended up buying a new board, after spending money RMA'ing his, receiving an outdated board as a replacement and the whole process taking up to a month.

Right now I would either look at MSI or Gigabyte.

Also, AFAIK a good board means high throughput, so wide buses. Unfortunately I cannot seem to find any information about bus bandwith when I look around. They just specify features. No bus speed to be found. What's the point of having a high end video card or CPU if the bottleneck is the mobo bus.


----------

