# i9 12900k temperature problem



## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Good afternoon,  A week ago installed fresh build, with new z690 mobo and i9 12900k, CPU temps were 60 in games.. But suddenly a day ago, while playing, temperatures started to spike between 60-80.. Like.. one moment it is 60, then 68, 75, 70, 81, 69 etc. changing fast. Thought maybe it happens in one game, so tried another 2 games, same thing.. Any ideas?. Temps checked via MSI afterburner, core temp, and etc.. No overclocked parts. Tried reinstall windows - nothing. Tried reapply thermal paste - nothing. Actually noticed, that CPU usage also higher, spikes to 65%. Maybe CPU itself failing? Any knowlegde would be helpful! Cooler - corsair h150i elite capellix. AtIDLE it stays 28-35 so I assume, cooler is fine.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 19, 2021)

Its normal, don't worry about it.


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## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Its normal, don't worry about it.


How it can be normal? never happened like this before.. Anyway, as I said, for one week, temps were 58-62 in games, no changes.. And from nowhere started jumping like crazy. I understand jumps up to 65 maybe, but not to 80+. Overclocked with AI overclock, temps jumped up to 86 even.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 19, 2021)

Load spikes, your thermal solution which apparently changed... 80C is a perfectly normal single core temp for these CPUs. 86C is also still within spec, and you say you get that with an overclock.


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## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Maybe it would be fine, if load would be 100% or close to it. Now, I was playing BFV for example, load around 35%, temps(Stock) 75-85, cannot aggree that it's normal. Watched tons of vids with same CPU, 57-63c... same temps, as mine before. But as I said, suddenly it spiked like crazy, and stayed like this.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 19, 2021)

I do not agree that such a change is "normal", but it may not be a problem either.

80°C is pretty warm, but 80°C when the system is taxed is not "hot".



Zazii said:


> How it can be normal? never happened like this before..


One  week could hardly be called "never".

I say, leave your computer running each night. When Windows and all your programs are first installed, they start out way behind in updates and housekeeping chores. Give the computer time to catch up then see what happens.

As you note, your temps at idle are good. So yes, that suggests the cooler is fine. So leave the TIM (thermal interface material) alone before you accidentally destroy your CPU with ESD or abuse.

Are your case fans spinning?

How is your ambient (room) temps compared to a week ago?

Also, please fill out your TPU System Specs so we know what hardware we are dealing with.


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## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> I do not agree that such a change is "normal", but it may not be a problem either.
> 
> 80°C is pretty warm, but 80°C when the system is taxed is not "hot".
> 
> ...


Thanks for reply, filled. Yes, case fans are spinning, room temps 20-23c all the time. Anyway, if case fans would not be spinning, then temps would be higher, that is understandable. But not like this, spiking like crazy, lower, higher, each second different temps. Never experienced this before. Voltages are okay, staying around 1.3 as it should be, frequency staying constantly at boost speeds. Everything seems just working fine, besides temp spikes.
EDIT: actually noticed some FPS drops.


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## Zyll Goliat (Dec 19, 2021)

And what kind of temps you have when you running some heavy CPU load?Did you tried running Cinebench R23,Prime 95,IBT?


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 19, 2021)

Zazii said:


> But not like this, spiking like crazy, lower, higher, each second different temps.


I disagree. I am not saying all is good. We don't know that yet. But for sure, temps can indeed "spike like crazy". A CPU, for example, can go from cool to overheated in just a few clock cycles. And your CPU can run at over 5 billion clock cycles in just 1 seconds!


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## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Zyll Goliat said:


> And what kind of temps you have when you running some heavy CPU load?Did you tried running Cinebench R23,Prime 95,IBT?


Yeah I did cinebench before these temp changes.. Was around 80-85c.. I did again today, reached 85-95c, a few cores reached 100c.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 19, 2021)

seth1911 said:


> oh no my silicon is get a bit warm (80°c) hell yeah GPU in the past did go up till 120+ °c.
> 
> And yeah the silicon says no i dont either work with 80°c cause its to warm,
> holly shit are u totally brainfucked the  working temp. for switches in silicon is up to 225 °c.
> ...



Apart from the language, are you? There are many components around the socket and on a CPU that wont do well over 100C. Memory ICs for example. Lets not go personal on OP for asking questions, rather explain why he sees what he sees?


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## Zyll Goliat (Dec 19, 2021)

Zazii said:


> Yeah I did cinebench before these temp changes.. Was around 80-85c.. I did again today, reached 85-95c, a few cores reached 100c.


Did you checked the cooler maybe it's not screwed well on one side or it's pop out a bit?


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## Vayra86 (Dec 19, 2021)

Zazii said:


> Yeah I did cinebench before these temp changes.. Was around 80-85c.. I did again today, reached 85-95c, a few cores reached 100c.



You reapplied paste. I would say you may have created your own reduced cooling capacity here. Was the die and plate on cooler spotless before you did? Is the same pressure applied? No overtightening?

Are you running the exact same scenarios here with the same background processes? I dare say this is near impossible going from new rig to fully installed and running over the course of little over a week. Windows will push updating in background too. Replicating is hard here. 

This is why ive said what I said earlier. If you can bench and stress test within safe limits (95-100C) , look into the voltages the CPU is pushing and work down from there. That way you will get to know your CPU , its turbo behaviour and what voltages you can actually run within your desired temp target.

Dont assume your CPU is broken. They almost never are and every time you fiddle around the socket or cooler is introducing more risk. Take the software / undervolt approach first.

Spiky temps are very normal on Intel CPUs since Kaby Lake. Check it out





						spike temp on intel at DuckDuckGo
					

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




					duckduckgo.com
				




I struggled with it too when overclocking my 8700K. On air, I actually prefer running it at 4.6 Ghz all core... it is specced for 4.7 single.


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## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Zyll Goliat said:


> Did you checked the cooler maybe it's not screwed well on one side or it's pop out a bit?


It's attached correctly.. AS I mentioned before, for like 5-6 days temps were okay, and then instantly rised. When I reapplied the paste, checked if this was a case, seems everything was fine. Played a game a bit longer, temps were between 80-92c now, changing constantly.



Bill_Bright said:


> I disagree. I am not saying all is good. We don't know that yet. But for sure, temps can indeed "spike like crazy". A CPU, for example, can go from cool to overheated in just a few clock cycles. And your CPU can run at over 5 billion clock cycles in just 1 seconds!


I agree, that temps can spike by doing something that makes CPU work rly hard.. But simple games, normally gives very minimal pressure on CPU. A few minutes ago I finished a game, wanted to see what temps it will be now.. Rised to 80-92c even... at 35-40% load. Maybe BIOS meesed up something, even though they are at default.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 19, 2021)

Zazii said:


> It's attached correctly.. AS I mentioned before, for like 5-6 days temps were okay, and then instantly rised. When I reapplied the paste, checked if this was a case, seems everything was fine. Played a game a bit longer, temps were between 80-92c now, changing constantly.
> 
> 
> I agree, that temps can spike by doing something that makes CPU work rly hard.. But simple games, normally gives very minimal pressure on CPU. A few minutes ago I finished a game, wanted to see what temps it will be now.. Rised to 80-92c even... at 35-40% load. Maybe BIOS meesed up something, even though they are at default.


If your auto OC setting was applied at some point, settings may still be non-stock.

Verify that you are running stock first. If it is, 92C is high. But keep in mind these CPUs can boost for 241W worth. We have to know you're testing the same things here. 'I just did X and got temp' really isn't going to get you, or us, anywhere.

Use HWInfo and run something that usually gives you 'high' temps in your perception, and post the sensor data. Specifically, per core load/avg/max and vcore for each core, plus package Wattage.

This one





And these


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 19, 2021)

Zazii said:


> But simple games, normally gives very minimal pressure on CPU.


Huh? Simple games? Simple games include solitaire, Tetris and the like. Not BFV. While BFV may not be the most demanding game out there, it still tasks your system. 

Try running with the side panel open and blasting a desk fan in there to see what your temps are. 

Also, and this is important, when you are playing and your temps shoot up, is your system still stable?


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 19, 2021)

listen to @Vayra86 and @Bill_Bright -- they are right.

i recommend looking for the temperatures of the i9 predecessors , they were @100°C in some situations. so your 80°C is still not cosy but even not hot either.






and if you apply 241 watts, where do you think the converted energy goes?


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## Zazii (Dec 19, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> If your auto OC setting was applied at some point, settings may still be non-stock.
> 
> Verify that you are running stock first. If it is, 92C is high. But keep in mind these CPUs can boost for 241W worth. We have to know you're testing the same things here. 'I just did X and got temp' really isn't going to get you, or us, anywhere.
> 
> ...


There u go.


Vayra86 said:


> If your auto OC setting was applied at some point, settings may still be non-stock.
> 
> Verify that you are running stock first. If it is, 92C is high. But keep in mind these CPUs can boost for 241W worth. We have to know you're testing the same things here. 'I just did X and got temp' really isn't going to get you, or us, anywhere.
> 
> ...


There u go.



Bill_Bright said:


> Huh? Simple games? Simple games include solitaire, Tetris and the like. Not BFV. While BFV may not be the most demanding game out there, it still tasks your system.
> 
> Try running with the side panel open and blasting a desk fan in there to see what your temps are.
> 
> Also, and this is important, when you are playing and your temps shoot up, is your system still stable?


I think I have enough fans already  6 intake, 3 exhaust. Yes, system feels stable besides that When it reach peak temps, I feel that it's strugling to maintain high FPS.. Voltage, core frequency remains the same.



plastiscɧ said:


> View attachment 229424
> 
> listen to @Vayra86 and @Bill_Bright -- they are right.
> 
> ...


I understand those 100c temps under stress tests.. But in games? cmon.. My CPU has pretty good cooler, and plenty of fans with optimal airflow. Anyway, if this somehow would be a cooling problem, I assume temperatures would rise, and stay at the same level, like 78-81.. But not jumping for WTF reason.. In BIOS I noticed, that next to the AI OC, Cooler PT has decreased, from 164 before, to 150 at this moment.. The higher points, the better cooling for CPU(that's what AI predicts), idk if it's means something, but anyway, wanted to say ;D


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 19, 2021)

Zazii said:


> There u go.
> 
> There u go.
> 
> ...







nevertheless, i still think that everything has been said.
your statement: "in games come on..." should perhaps be addressed to intel.
the core is simply not too hot at 80°C.












you run so much power through your CPU you could drive a car with it



small update:

mine while playing









considering the fact that you are adding twice as much energy as mine needs in the peak, simply don't be wondered that it gets very hot. it's entirely normal.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 20, 2021)

/thread

Refer to earlier comments. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but that's why we read reviews before buying. There is a whole stack of less power hungry CPUs with lower core counts that would probably peak lower and game the exact same.

The peak clock of 5.2 Ghz is too much, clearly, because the cores that show a max at 5.2 Ghz are also the ones running into 90C.
The vcore you get at that point on those cores is 1.35V (give or take, account for vdroop), so that is your upper limit right there. If you want to get this CPU under control, take that as a first guideline for your '24/7' settings. I'd suggest aiming for 1.3V and then getting maximum core performance for your use case out of it. I'm not experienced with ADL overclocking yet, but undervolting and disabling E-cores seems like a good start, capping turbo at 5.0 or 5.1 Ghz would also be a path.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 20, 2021)

Is the cooler getting saturated? I run a 2 rad custom loop on my 12700k and even that can crack 80c on 100% load and yours is a 12900k


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## vMax65 (Dec 24, 2021)

Not sure if resolved but a couple of things, one the H150 Elite capelix, is it attached with the socket 1700 bracket or are you using the original bracket with the Asus 1200 holes? I have the Asus Strix-A D4 and originally I used the socket 1200 holes as I did not have the socket 1700 bracket and temps were higher, now with the socket 1700 bracket my temps are fine. Also are you on the latest 0807 BIOS and I just noticed a new one the 0907 which seems to have just come out..

Also are you running with all limits enabled?


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 24, 2021)

vMax65 said:


> Not sure if resolved but a couple of things, one the H150 Elite capelix, is it attached with the socket 1700 bracket or are you using the original bracket with the Asus 1200 holes? I have the Asus Strix-A D4 and originally I used the socket 1200 holes as I did not have the socket 1700 bracket and temps were higher, now with the socket 1700 bracket my temps are fine. Also are you on the latest 0807 BIOS and I just noticed a new one the 0907 which seems to have just come out..
> 
> Also are you running with all limits enabled?



Just looked, i have the same board. it's 0901


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## vMax65 (Dec 24, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Just looked, i have the same board. it's 0901


Have you tried it yet? I always wait a while for some feedback before updating to a newer BIOS as you never know....


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 24, 2021)

vMax65 said:


> Have you tried it yet? I always wait a while for some feedback before updating to a newer BIOS as you never know....



Just flashed it, no problems. Did a google too and it seems positive with memory stuff. With it being such a new platform, i think it's a good idea to keep up to date with the bios updates.


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## fevgatos (Dec 24, 2021)

First of all, half the comments in this section are from ignorant people that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. I've no idea why they are even posting since they don't have any basic knowledge.

Now for OP's issue, obviously something is wrong. Alderlake is extremely efficient during gaming and does not consume 240w like some people before suggested (lol). Just reapply your paste and see if there is any improvement.


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## mama (Dec 24, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> First of all, half the comments in this section are from ignorant people that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. I've no idea why they are even posting since they don't have any basic knowledge.
> 
> Now for OP's issue, obviously something is wrong. Alderlake is extremely efficient during gaming and does not consume 240w like some people before suggested (lol). Just reapply your paste and see if there is any improvement.


Bit judgy aren't we?  

He's already reapplied paste.


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## fevgatos (Dec 24, 2021)

mama said:


> Bit judgy aren't we?
> 
> He's already reapplied paste.


Of course I'm judgy, this is a tech forum. Imagine yourself in a situation where you require help and people that are clueless about the topic feel the need to share their uninformed opinion. His CPU consumes less watts in gaming than my 11600k does and people are telling him that hitting 85-90c is normal...I mean besides everything else, they might even cost him actual money because he listened to them and damaged his hardware


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 24, 2021)

Too many people who have not even had hands on with a ADL setup regurgitating stuff they have read on some other forum. Unless you have one and are speaking from hands on experience, then you don't know what you are on about.


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## ir_cow (Dec 25, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> Now for OP's issue, obviously something is wrong. Alderlake is extremely efficient during gaming and does not consume 240w like some people before suggested (lol). Just reapply your paste and see if there is any improvement.


Ha! I have two Alder Lakes CPU that say otherwise. Depends on the application you use and the automatic voltage that is applied by the MB. Even if you don't overclock, MBs can have extra Boost or Turbo stuff applied without you knowing.

Edit: Just tested a stock i9-12900K. BF5 = 95 Watts, Cinebench R20 = 189 Watts, Prime95 = 237 Watts.  That's at 1.12v. If the MB is applying 1.2 or higher that would easily lead to 200+. The other things it could be is the AIO pump isn't working correctly (or slow fans). The sticker is still on the AIO cooler. Poor contact with the cooler. Bad CPU sensor. High voltage. That is all I can think of right now.



fevgatos said:


> His CPU consumes less watts in gaming than my 11600k does and people are telling him that hitting 85-90c is normal...I mean besides everything else, they might even cost him actual money because he listened to them and damaged his hardware


Why are you comparing a 11th gen to 12th gen?

@Zazii can you posts a screenshot of HWINFO while the CPU is under load. The one you have shows idling with 1.1v.


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## Franz (Dec 25, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> First of all, half the comments in this section are from ignorant people that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. I've no idea why they are even posting since they don't have any basic knowledge.
> 
> Now for OP's issue, obviously something is wrong. Alderlake is extremely efficient during gaming and does not consume 240w like some people before suggested (lol). Just reapply your paste and see if there is any improvement.


That was rude calling people here ignorant but I totally agree with your other inputs....

Those newer intels is extremely efficient while gaming and even higher on idle. In reviews they ONLY comment about stress wattage and on intel, but c'mom, how many hours you run a stress and how many yors yours pc stands on idle? I dont see people comment about the high idle consumption on ryzen chips......










@Zazzi just return your cpu and get a new one! If your retalier dont return, just rma to intel, their service is outstanding!  I had a problem with a 7700k, I contacted them about the issue that processor had (only delided has a decent cooling) and they give a 6900k (it took 60 days but the R$1500 order turns into R$9000 )

So, thats it. Merry Cristmas guys and God bless all.


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## fevgatos (Dec 25, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> Ha! I have two Alder Lakes CPU that say otherwise. Depends on the application you use and the automatic voltage that is applied by the MB. Even if you don't overclock, MBs can have extra Boost or Turbo stuff applied without you knowing.
> 
> Edit: Just tested a stock i9-12900K. BF5 = 95 Watts, Cinebench R20 = 189 Watts, Prime95 = 237 Watts.  That's at 1.12v. If the MB is applying 1.2 or higher that would easily lead to 200+. The other things it could be is the AIO pump isn't working correctly (or slow fans). The sticker is still on the AIO cooler. Poor contact with the cooler. Bad CPU sensor. High voltage. That is all I can think of right now.


I said it does not consume 240 watts during gaming and you come back with consumption during prime95 and cbr20? Okay man


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 25, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> First of all, half the comments in this section are from ignorant people that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. I've no idea why they are even posting since they don't have any basic knowledge.
> 
> Now for OP's issue, obviously something is wrong. Alderlake is extremely efficient during gaming and does not consume 240w like some people before suggested (lol). Just reapply your paste and see if there is any improvement.


I think you have not read correctly what it is about:
It is about temperatures in power peaks.

and your concept of efficiency is more likely to come from the 50s of the 18th century.

You can't deny ignorance and basic understanding to anyone here.
for this you get my, here first, red emote.

you have not dealt with the op at all. you are just playing the blame game. without any reasonable factual justification and refutation of the allegedly wrong facts.
maybe it helps to read through the initial post correctly and exactly. if you are not able to do so, i will help you by means of colors and capitalization.


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## fevgatos (Dec 26, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> I think you have not read correctly what it is about:
> It is about temperatures in power peaks.
> 
> and your concept of efficiency is more likely to come from the 50s of the 18th century.
> ...


I read the first post again. Repeatedly. He is talking about spikes in temperature while GAMING, that did not happen before, but started all of a sudden. Consumption during gaming for ADL does not go above 150w, and that's already at something like cyberpunk @ 720p. His cooler is an h150i elite. So I stand by what I said. Most of the posts in this thread are just dumb, saying his temps are normal cause of prime95 and cinebench results. 

FYI, I did not get that high temperatures during gaming with a u12a, so yeah. Ignorant posters.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 26, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> I read the first post again. Repeatedly. He is talking about spikes in temperature while GAMING, that did not happen before, but started all of a sudden. Consumption during gaming for ADL does not go above 150w, and that's already at something like cyberpunk @ 720p. His cooler is an h150i elite. So I stand by what I said. Most of the posts in this thread are just dumb, saying his temps are normal cause of prime95 and cinebench results.
> 
> FYI, I did not get that high temperatures during gaming with a u12a, so yeah. Ignorant posters.



Hey, good luck then buddy, troubleshoot his issue, all yours. You are more experienced so you shouldnt have a problem here.

What we did say was, provide data we can rely on. We saw the 150+W package power and let me tell you, that kind of sustained wattage is not easy to cool and resulting temps are not out of the ordinary especially if the cooling was not mounted properly. 

So, maybe, direct your attention to the solution rather than flaming the ones you dont like. Your contribution so far is zero. General statements about gaming and bench temps are not helping anyone so far.



fevgatos said:


> I said it does not consume 240 watts during gaming and you come back with consumption during prime95 and cbr20? Okay man



It is specced for 241W peak and depending on silicon quality and turbo behaviour we have no reliable way to tell it didnt go there.


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## fevgatos (Dec 26, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Hey, good luck then buddy, troubleshoot his issue, all yours. You are more experienced so you shouldnt have a problem here.
> 
> What we did say was, provide data we can rely on. We saw the 150+W package power and let me tell you, that kind of sustained wattage is not easy to cool and resulting temps are not out of the ordinary especially if the cooling was not mounted properly.
> 
> So, maybe, direct your attention to the solution rather than flaming the ones you dont like. Your contribution so far is zero. General statements about gaming and bench temps are not helping anyone so far.


150w is insanely easy to cool even with an inexpensive small 30€ cooler. A freezer 34 would do that easily. His h150i can cool that amount of wattage with the fans off probably.

So what he is experiencing is NOT normal, the CPU does not consume 240w (as per his hwinfo screenshot)  and something else is going on. Probably the mounting if I had to guess. So the people that kept on going about "intel consumes 240w and you need a custom loop to cool it) were just being silly.

Other than that, I don't know what card he is using, a high end ampere card with a h150i as exhaust could account for high temperatures. Happened to me when my 3090 was exhausting 550w through the radiator. Still, 92C is ridiculous and even with that into account he shouldnt be seeing temps like that.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 26, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> 150w is insanely easy to cool even with an inexpensive small 30€ cooler. A freezer 34 would do that easily. His h150i can cool that amount of wattage with the fans off probably.
> 
> So what he is experiencing is NOT normal, the CPU does not consume 240w (as per his hwinfo screenshot)  and something else is going on. Probably the mounting if I had to guess. So the people that kept on going about "intel consumes 240w and you need a custom loop to cool it) were just being silly.
> 
> Other than that, I don't know what card he is using, a high end ampere card with a h150i as exhaust could account for high temperatures. Happened to me when my 3090 was exhausting 550w through the radiator. Still, 92C is ridiculous and even with that into account he shouldnt be seeing temps like that.



You dont cool 150W easily on any air tower at all. Im not sure you know what you are saying here. Detached from reality it surely is though. When I push over 140W sustained on a Dark Rock Pro Im seeing 80+C just the same.


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## fevgatos (Dec 26, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> You dont cool 150W easily on any air tower at all. Im not sure you know what you are saying here. Detached from reality it surely is though. When I push over 140W sustained on a Dark Rock Pro Im seeing 80+C just the same.


I barely hit 70s at 165watts running cinebench on a loop with a smaller air cooler than your dark rock pro (u12a) . You either have a ryzen CPU which are hard to cool (way harder than Intel) or your case airflow is terrible. 150w is a joke for any decent air cooler starting from 30€

PS1. Actually besides core 3 which hits 70 (maybe due to uneven ihs or contact) the rest of the cores stay at 61-62 degrees. There is something wrong with your cooler man


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## ir_cow (Dec 26, 2021)

I'm curios @fevgatos if you actually have a Alder Lake CPU. Purely playing games with nothing else open I reached 95 Watts in BF5. That does not mean the OP does not have 10 other programs running in the background causing 240 watt spikes. Because yes Alder Lake i9-12900K can peak at 240w without any overclocking. I proved it.....

This is my best guess what is happening. While the gaming some other program(s) is putting a load on causing quick spikes to 200+. The AIO cooler is probably in a ECO mode and does not run at full speed all the time. So when a spike happens, the temps quickly jump. If you are running a air-cooler or open-loop water. The cooling is sustained, thus limiting the magnitude of the temp spikes.

Solution? Stop telling people a $30 cooler is enough


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 27, 2021)

Just looked and my CPU package is no more than 60w running project zomboid. 12700k. Not sure about temps, but i have a dual rad loop, see sys specs.


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## fevgatos (Dec 27, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> I'm curios @fevgatos if you actually have a Alder Lake CPU. Purely playing games with nothing else open I reached 95 Watts in BF5. That does not mean the OP does not have 10 other programs running in the background causing 240 watt spikes. Because yes Alder Lake i9-12900K can peak at 240w without any overclocking. I proved it.....
> 
> This is my best guess what is happening. While the gaming some other program(s) is putting a load on causing quick spikes to 200+. The AIO cooler is probably in a ECO mode and does not run at full speed all the time. So when a spike happens, the temps quickly jump. If you are running a air-cooler or open-loop water. The cooling is sustained, thus limiting the magnitude of the temp spikes.
> 
> Solution? Stop telling people a $30 cooler is enough


If it's a temp spikes that hwinfo can catch, then it could also catch the power spike. Which it didn't, he posted a screenshot from hwinfo, 150w maximum power draw and ~90c temperature.

Yes I do have a 12900k + apex, waiting for my ddr5


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## Vayra86 (Dec 27, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> I barely hit 70s at 165watts running cinebench on a loop with a smaller air cooler than your dark rock pro (u12a) . You either have a ryzen CPU which are hard to cool (way harder than Intel) or your case airflow is terrible. 150w is a joke for any decent air cooler starting from 30€
> 
> PS1. Actually besides core 3 which hits 70 (maybe due to uneven ihs or contact) the rest of the cores stay at 61-62 degrees. There is something wrong with your cooler man



Strange. TPU seems to think otherwise



			https://tpucdn.com/review/cooler-master-masterliquid-pl240-flux-aio-liquid-cpu-cooler/images/temp_oc_blender_intel.png
		


Take a look - and this is on a rather less bursty 10900K under OC, maxing out at 200W with 125W sustained.

My own results are from a 8700K which was far less optimal wrt IHS solution (back when delid was a thing).

Here is the 12900K review



			https://tpucdn.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-12th-gen/images/cpu-temperature.png
		


Mind if I say you're full of it?


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## grammar_phreak (Dec 27, 2021)

This kinda reminds me of the problem with the 7700k and high peak temps.
Auto overclocking will sometimes lead to abnormal temperature spikes. It's best to input the voltages manually, because these Auto-overclocking features tend to set the voltages too high. Also some of these games are using more advanced instruction sets at times which leads to higher temps.

It's hard to make comments about a setup unless you own and have hands on experience with it. Youtube reviewers and these benchmarks from channels like Testing Games don't cover everything.


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## fevgatos (Dec 27, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Strange. TPU seems to think otherwise
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im confused. What does a graph with an oced cpu running blender have anything to do with whether or not a cheap air cooler can easily cool 150w? I thought that was our disagreement. 

Your 8700k needs a delid, had one. The bottleneck to your temperatures isnt your cooler but the tim. 

So mind if i say i think you figured out you are wrong and now you are changing the topic?


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## Vayra86 (Dec 27, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> Im confused. What does a graph with an oced cpu running blender have anything to do with whether or not a cheap air cooler can easily cool 150w? I thought that was our disagreement.
> 
> Your 8700k needs a delid, had one. The bottleneck to your temperatures isnt your cooler but the tim.
> 
> So mind if i say i think you figured out you are wrong and now you are changing the topic?



Our disagreement?! I just explained to you why I saw what I saw on air at a certain wattage. Im supporting that with other Intel CPUs running into temps well over 80C when presented with usage at and over 150W.

Im absolutely not interested in discussing this in a help topic, Im not here to epeen about temps with you. Refer to earlier posts. Advice was given and if your point to derail this topic was 'you idiots dont know ADL and I do then again, I invite you to help the OP with better advice than what was given.

All Ive said was
- cooler might need a better mount
- ADL might pull more watts than you think
- Similar TDPs on Intel show the same high core temps, and tell a different story about ADL than you are telling.
- Troubleshoot this by double checking voltage / oc settings and limiting voltage before introducing more risk by hardware fiddling.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 27, 2021)

His cooler should be adequate. No denying the 12900k can be a bitch to cool though. As long as its not going near 100c i would leave it.


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## looniam (Dec 27, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> If it's a temp spikes that hwinfo can catch, then it could also catch the power spike.


nope. HWInfo is limited to 250ms polling fast enough for temps but not for spikes that only last ~10-25ms. you'de need a scope for that.


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## fevgatos (Dec 27, 2021)

looniam said:


> nope. HWInfo is limited to 250ms polling fast enough for temps but not for spikes that only last ~10-25ms. you'de need a scope for that.


Sure, but if we are talking about actual spikes that last ms, those are not even close to enough to cause 90c on a 360 radiator. Probably not even on an air cooler.

OP isn't around anymore so I think we are just running circles. He could just try a cbr20 with an 150w power limit and report his temperatures. If he is still getting 90c there is obviously something wrong with his cooler installation.


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## looniam (Dec 27, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> Sure, but if we are talking about actual spikes that last ms, those are not even close to enough to cause 90c on a 360 radiator. Probably not even on an air cooler.
> 
> OP isn't around anymore so I think we are just running circles. He could just try a cbr20 with an 150w power limit and report his temperatures. If he is still getting 90c there is obviously something wrong with his cooler installation.


*sigh* NO.
the spikes are constant enough to raise temps but STILL NOT get caught with software but you know their there cuz of temps!


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## fevgatos (Dec 27, 2021)

looniam said:


> *sigh* NO.
> the spikes are constant enough to raise temps but STILL NOT get caught with software but you know their there cuz of temps!


So you are saying that a 10ms 100w spike can cause a 2000ms (that's 2 seconds btw...) 20-25c spike in temperatures? On a 360 AIO? Nah. I mean there is one way to test it, power limit it to 150w and run cbr20. But the op is gone so...can't do that


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## looniam (Dec 27, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> So you are saying that a 10ms 100w spike can cause a 2000ms (that's 2 seconds btw...) 20-25c spike in temperatures? On a 360 AIO? Nah. I mean there is one way to test it, power limit it to 150w and run cbr20. But the op is gone so...can't do that.


on that POS AIO? feh like a higher end air cooler can't beat that. .
lesson for the day:
power fluctuates much much MUCH faster than temps

and we are done.


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## fevgatos (Dec 27, 2021)

I'll have my ddr5 in 2 day and I'll test it, with no power limits there is no way in hell it's going to be hitting 90+c during gaming. Not even with an aircooler, let alone a 360 AIO. No matter how bad it is, it's still a truckload of rad space. 

Btw you can make hwinfo poll every 50ms.


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 28, 2021)

note to self:
ask the source of the graphic what they were playing while it was created.
could only be mahjong
















let's be honest and realistic: nearly EVERYONE says the thing is running hot... why make such a scene?

I also don't understand why it has to be an i9 if it clocks the same as all the others. or does it run at 6Ghz?


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## Psychoholic (Dec 28, 2021)

Anecdotal of course, but mine runs cool.. about 75C under full load (CB23 Loop) and this is on air.. noctua U12A.
By default motherboards overvolt the crap out of these, this has to be adjusted.  Mine was pouring on 1.34v by default, i'm running it @ 1.24v (Still stock clocks) and its rock solid stable.


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## fevgatos (Dec 28, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> note to self:
> ask the source of the graphic what they were playing while it was created.
> could only be mahjong
> 
> ...


He was playing cinebench r 20 I think.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 28, 2021)

fevgatos said:


> He was playing cinebench r 20 I think.



No, Prime.

The point is, you have no control over when or whether the CPU will peak to 241W. It simply can as it is stock specced for PL1=PL2 and mobo vendors are not here to be kind on your cooling, they want to say they're faster with the same CPU. Remember past Intel gens and how vendors sneaked in OC settings. The CPU maxing at 150 ~W simply means it ran into constraints earlier but it sure as hell peaked to 241W briefly before landing there. Its how these turbo's work.

Three pages on, and we can conclude this *might* have happened on OP's CPU.
Somehow that wasn't true on the first pages, and now its a possibility.

You have to account for people being people, and oblivious to what they're actually doing, or what settings they're actually using. And the results simply line up with what reviews see. Its not hard and there's no need to present your own magical results that don't line up to show how much better you know things, unless it holds water for OPs case . The reality is, you have a different setup just as well even if you do have an ADL CPU.


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## fevgatos (Dec 28, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> No, Prime.


So it wasn't a game and it wasn't mahjong. 

About the rest, supposedly tommorow theyll be shipping my ddr5, i guess ill have it sometime next week. Ill do my tests, but I can bet a paycheck the temps in gaming even with an overclocked cpu will not be anywhere near 90. And that's with an air cooler, not a huge radiator. Actually i dont think theyll even exceed 70,but ill have to see, ill keep you informed.


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## Jeanbon (Dec 29, 2021)

Hey, just created an account to reply here and bring my experience with the 12900k !

First, my professional experience :
I work at the IT dep of a company that need a lot of compute power.
Recently, we built 5 custom workstation for our 3D Cloud point dep. We used 5 12900k on my recommendation. All cooled with a 360 AIO coller (MSI MEG C360)

What I can say with those CPU after 4 weeks of work (and a bit of gaming in our breaks but don't tell our boss ) :
CPU temp is stable at idle. (30°C)
On workload, some "spicks" can be seen around 85 to 90 for P core, but an avg of 80. 100% CPU use
On "Gaming", 65 to 70 avg BUT yes, we have spikes that reach 85... On the 5 Workstations. ~25-50% CPU use

Now what I can say about my personal experience :
With a custom loop, one 360 Rad, Velocity² cpu waterblock and around 0.98L (very good thermal inertia) of coolant only for the cpu, positive pressure case, good fan on every intakes...
I get 25C on long idle and 29-30 on short idle... nice
Ureal Engine 5 compilation (cpu at 100% for 30 min on big project)  : little spikes, 70C avg... nice
Intel stress test : 80C... ok cool
Now gaming (on 4K monitor) : 
MSF2020 : spikes 85C, avg 70 | DCS world : spikes 83C avg 73 | ready or not : spikes 85C avg 75| my game : spikes 80C avg 69

mmmmh, why does all the 6 CPU have those spikes ?! Here are my answers 

1- The GPU... actually when I was playing, my GPU fans were not turning fast... but sometimes they kick off and go to 100%. Even with a really really good front to rear airflow in your case, you will have always hot air that goes to your radiator. (assuming that he is in the top of your case)
2- 12Gen CPU are spiking. I was really scared first because that's the first time that a cpu does it So much , but "new" tech, new problems and I check on all the internet to see that 95% of the 12900k owner have spikes 
3- Thermal paste quality ? Actualy, we used 2 different paste in our build, but nothing changed so...

*My solutions* : (if you think that you really have a problem)
Change the radiator place, put it in an intake of your case (but don't forget to always keep your pump as low as possible in your loop).
Blow air as much as possible from the front to the rear of the case.
Lower your cpu Voltage, intel extreme tuning software is realy cool for that.
Touch with your hand the inlet and outlet tube of your AIO and if there is no difference, then the radiator might be at fault.

Sry if I misspelled some word, I'm not very good in Eng writing.. I feel like I write like a child


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 29, 2021)

Jeanbon said:


> Hey, just created an account to reply here and bring my experience with the 12900k !
> 
> First, my professional experience :
> I work at the IT dep of a company that need a lot of compute power.
> ...



Thank u very much for the detailed testing experience!

that's exactly what we need in forums like this one.
i think that should clear the table of irregularities.

and something for you in a personal matter:

we Europeans have an excellent translator on our hands.
i also work with it in my administration because the pro version is also document proof.
feel free to try it out. forget google. it is nuts.

*deepL*>>>> translator


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## Vayra86 (Dec 29, 2021)

Psychoholic said:


> Anecdotal of course, but mine runs cool.. about 75C under full load (CB23 Loop) and this is on air.. noctua U12A.
> By default motherboards overvolt the crap out of these, this has to be adjusted.  Mine was pouring on 1.34v by default, i'm running it @ 1.24v (Still stock clocks) and its rock solid stable.





Jeanbon said:


> Hey, just created an account to reply here and bring my experience with the 12900k !
> 
> First, my professional experience :
> I work at the IT dep of a company that need a lot of compute power.
> ...



@Zazii  This is more evidence that your cooling is not the issue, but rather the voltage your motherboard is providing this CPU. Work from the BIOS/Software side to get this puppy under control.

Note the 1.34V and being hot. I have the same experience on a much older, yet similar architecture with my Coffee Lake CPU. Intel CPUs have been bursty bitches since a few years now, all to win those benchmark charts, screw user experience out of the box. Anything above 1.3V really becomes hot territory with Intel, except if you stick with lower core count CPUs combined with their (standard now) thinner IHS solutions. When I pushed 1.35V through on air I managed to run into thermal shutdowns during summer 

Another note, if you live in a damp/hot country/environment, your ambient conditions are certainly going to be worse than what you see on Youtube videos. Youtube is like TV: All Show. Avoid that nonsense for truth seeking.


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 29, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> @Zazii  This is more evidence that your cooling is not the issue, but rather the voltage your motherboard is providing this CPU. Work from the BIOS/Software side to get this puppy under control.
> 
> Note the 1.34V and being hot. I have the same experience on a much older, yet similar architecture with my Coffee Lake CPU. Intel CPUs have been bursty bitches since a few years now, all to win those benchmark charts, screw user experience out of the box. Anything above 1.3V really becomes hot territory with Intel, except if you stick with lower core count CPUs combined with their (standard now) thinner IHS solutions. When I pushed 1.35V through on air I managed to run into thermal shutdowns during summer
> 
> Another note, if you live in a damp/hot country/environment, your ambient conditions are certainly going to be worse than what you see on Youtube videos. Youtube is like TV: All Show. Avoid that nonsense for truth seeking.



that's right, it was the only way to deal with the hotheads of that time:





I could bring him down from over 90°C to 65°C under load.
today, most of them are soldered. it is now nearly mission impossible to do the delid without a VERY high risk to destroy them entirely.


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## ir_cow (Dec 29, 2021)

Can we finally conclude most MBs  have PL1=PL2 enabled by default. That allows the CPU to pull 240w. I noticed that some MBs will do the 4096w unlock when I have a the pump on the fan header. 

You can enforce the 150 limit in the BIOs, but often it is hidden away.


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## Psychoholic (Dec 29, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> Can we finally conclude most MBs  have PL1=PL2 enabled by default. That allows the CPU to pull 240w. I noticed that some MBs will do the 4096w unlock when I have a the pump on the fan header.
> 
> You can enforce the 150 limit in the BIOs, but often it is hidden away.



Yep, this also works, i have my PL2 set to 200w.
I did notice that if you set it to say 170w or so it will begin dropping below default all core load clocks where lowering the voltage keeps the default clocks.

Dropping PL2 from 241 down to 180-190 is almost ZERO difference in performance and shaves off 50-60w load power usage; of course this makes no difference in MOST games.


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 29, 2021)

ir_cow said:


> Can we finally conclude most MBs  have PL1=PL2 enabled by default. That allows the CPU to pull 240w. I noticed that some MBs will do the 4096w unlock when I have a the pump on the fan header.
> 
> You can enforce the 150 limit in the BIOs, but often it is hidden away.


funny how intel leaves this mess to the mainboard manufacturers to smooth out.
the 241Watt crowbar only came to stay competitive against the RYZEN CPUs.
they couldn't just handle it another way.


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## tox1c90 (Dec 30, 2021)

Hey guys! I just registered to share some measurements I took during my first gaming sessions with my new 12900k build.

Baseline information (measured using hwinfo64):

12900k on MSI Z690 Tomahawk DDR5, Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 (standard fans, MX-4 paste), Fractal Meshify 2 case, radiator outtake mounted at the top
VCore Adaptive+Offset (-0.050V), PL1/2 = 241W, resulting in ~1.25V VCore during Cinebench R23 and Prime95 @ 4.9GHz all core
30 minutes Cinebench R23 -> max CPU package temp. 93°C, avg. power 242W
3 hours Prime95 30.7b9 blend -> max CPU package temp. 95°C, avg. temp. 89°C, avg. power 242W
Ok, now the gaming stuff. I played one hour of Battlefield 5 with the GPU (RTX 2080) being maxed at 99% usage all the time. I resetted the hwinfo64 log when I was ingame to accurately capture the average value.

avg. CPU package temp.: 67°C, avg. power: ~100W
max. CPU package temp.: 78°C, max power: ~165W
min. CPU package temp.: 50°C
So it is obvious that it is oscillating a lot, which I could also observe looking at the individual core temperatures. The 78°C resulted from a pretty harsh temperature spike in a single core, usually it was not going above 72-74°C. The game really lets the CPU draw >150W from time to time.

I also have to say that I like to have it as silent as possible. That means up to 60°C I run pump and fans pretty much on minimum and let it ramp up to 50% @ 75°C and 100% @ 85°C. That means basically if there is a harsh temperature increase it takes some time until my cooling has ramped up.

Therefore, I assume the temps are pretty much in line to what has been observed in many other reviews? What's your opinion? I could start fiddling around with stuff like liquid metal paste and so on, but I am not sure if it's really worth it. I also think the cooler is mounted properly, because idle temps are perfect (around ~30°C or even slightly less at 22°C ambient temperature).


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## plastiscɧ (Dec 31, 2021)

tox1c90 said:


> Hey guys! I just registered to share some measurements I took during my first gaming sessions with my new 12900k build.
> 
> Baseline information (measured using hwinfo64):
> 
> ...








it seems to match to the test done in #58. thank u as well.

I am currently very happy that my PC consists entirely of GEN4 and is allowed to age.
Based on your statements, I'm def from this step to go to always have the ABSOLUTELY latest on the table, although the old was not even close to 6 months OLD.

2 things must happen now: x86 will die. there will have to be a solution for this and the future PC hardware must be more energy efficient with smaller architecture.

before that, i won't lift a finger.


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## tox1c90 (Jan 1, 2022)

I managed to bring it down by 3-4°C. I read the reports about bent sockets that can occur with certain boards which can lead to a slightly bent heat spreader when the CPU is inserted into the socket, so I wanted to check if this is the case for me and maybe decrease my cooling performance.

Fortunately, both the copper plate of the cooler as well as the HS of the CPU is as flat as I was able to measure with the tools I have. Although the thermal paste looked as it had proper contact over the whole surface, it looked like there was a tiny bit of a ramp from left to right. So this time I took more care than ever while tightening the cooler to make sure it has perfectly even contact.

Now I have 89°C max., 87°C avg. @ 242W in CB R23 and 80°C max., 77°C avg. with power consumption capped @ PL1/2=200W. Seems to be the best I can achieve.


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## caroline! (Jan 1, 2022)

Zazii said:


> Overclocked with AI overclock, temps jumped up to 86 even.


Makes sense since crap auto-OC tools pump a lot of voltage to circumvent the silicon lottery and make all chips overclock the same. Don't use them.

Like the rest said, temps are normal considering your cooling. AIOs like that are on par with midrange air coolers.


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## outpt (Jan 1, 2022)

Don’t know anything about alder lake. Since the system is brand new I would look at the cooler. When I built my 5800x everything was alright considering these cpus run hot anyway. Temperature started going all over the place. One drt cooler. That’s my 2 cents


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## GerKNG (Jan 1, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> You dont cool 150W easily on any air tower at all. Im not sure you know what you are saying here. Detached from reality it surely is though. When I push over 140W sustained on a Dark Rock Pro Im seeing 80+C just the same.


that's absolutely no Problem.

My NH D15 has zero problems cooling my 10900k at 5.1 Ghz (that pulls almost 260W in R23)
and my 12600k at 5.1 Ghz (with a way higher thermal density) runs at around 90°C because of the almost 1.45V

cooling the 12600k at a reasonable 4.9 GHz (around 150W... what you said is "not easy on any air cooler at all") sits in the LOW 60s even after a 30 Minute loop and barely audible fans set to a bit above 1100 RPM.

Edit: 90°C... not 80.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 2, 2022)

GerKNG said:


> that's absolutely no Problem.
> 
> My NH D15 has zero problems cooling my 10900k at 5.1 Ghz (that pulls almost 260W in R23)
> and my 12600k at 5.1 Ghz (with a way higher thermal density) runs at around 80°C because of the almost 1.45V
> ...



The D15 is probably the best air cooler there is though.


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## ir_cow (Jan 2, 2022)

GerKNG said:


> My NH D15 has zero problems cooling my 10900k at 5.1 Ghz (that pulls almost 260W in R23)



Can you sustain that though? I had a D15 on my 10900K as well at first. It couldn't handle R23 or Prime95 at stock for more than 3 minutes without throttling. Put a waterblock on it and 5.1 @ 1.275v was the best. Never breached 80c again. Now if you are just playing games or boosting 1 core to 5.1, it isn't a issue using a air-cooler. Even for Alder-Lake.


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## GerKNG (Jan 2, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> Can you sustain that though? I had a D15 on my 10900K as well at first. It couldn't handle R23 or Prime95 at stock for more than 3 minutes without throttling. Put a waterblock on it and 5.1 @ 1.275v was the best. Never breached 80c again. Now if you are just playing games or boosting 1 core to 5.1, it isn't a issue using a air-cooler. Even for Alder-Lake.


i never do anything else except all core OCs and no AVX Offsets.

i have a well ventilated case and that's it.
i talk about R23. not games. and it was my 10850k not 10900KF. but of course your 10900k throttles in P95 but in R23? either you have very high ambient temps, bad case airflow or non just untouched fan speeds.

5.1 on the 12600k is barely stable except for light all core load or gaming. but running R23 once or twice is always below 90°C (btw there is a typo in my comment above)


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## mrthanhnguyen (Jan 2, 2022)

A guy who delid my 12900k told me the stock ihs is not completed contact with the die. Thats why some  Alder Lake chip has very high temp.


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## GerKNG (Jan 2, 2022)

5 and 5.1 Ghz OC (1.36V and 1.46V)
NH D15 Chromax Black in a Meshfiy S2 with 4 Arctic P14 Case Fans.
20C Ambient.


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## ir_cow (Jan 2, 2022)

@GerKNG Now loop that for 30mins.


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## GerKNG (Jan 2, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> @GerKNG Now loop that for 30mins.


5.1 is not stable enough to run more than 4-5 rounds.
5Ghz is fine and goes up to ~80°C


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## fevgatos (Jan 2, 2022)

Are we still arguing about whether or not 150w can be cooled easily? WOW, this is supposed to be a tech forum, are seriously people unaware of this?


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## mstenholm (Jan 2, 2022)

Remind me - when you want to block a users post, you use the ignore option right? Done.


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## Braegnok (Jan 2, 2022)

With i9-12900K PL2 @ 200W, MORA 420 Pro cooling,.. running R23 my CPU will get up to 67c.

It's vary unlikely the Corsair H150i will shed the temps this chip generates at full load drawing 200W,.. your going to be fine however in most cases.

This chip does indeed run vary hot at full load,.. even with a custom loop.


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## ir_cow (Jan 2, 2022)

GerKNG said:


> 5.1 is not stable enough to run more than 4-5 rounds.
> 5Ghz is fine and goes up to ~80°C


Thank for sharing this. I will use this in my segue so we can all end this debate about Alder Lake cooling.

I think the problem here is people generally are mixing up terms and the fundamentals of thermal dynamics. Regardless of your cooling solution, the problem will always be at the source. For this example we can must take care of all the obstacles. We will pretend the IHS is flat, contact to the cores is good, etc. Better yet, lets just delid it and go direct die cooling.

Now with perfect (magical) contact for maximum direct cooling we can discuss entropy. Energy is never lost, just redirected. In this case by powering a device with electricity, that energy is outputted in the way of heat. This heat must be absorbed by something else for the CPU function. This is why cooling solutions exist for CPUs.

Using this great calculator, it is possible to see how much energy in watts a CPU consumes and therefore expel it as well. No need for a specific CPU, this works for anything. But I will be using Alder Lake 12900K as a example since this is the whole debate in the first place.

By using Prime95 as a base measurement, it is possible to calculate the maximum power draw the average 12900K will use. This will also be a base for everything else going forwards. A lot of these Motherboards have a crazy cap of 4093 watts which is well above any VRM. We will limit ourselves to 1.45v and 250 Amp.

1.1v / 250 A = 275 Watts (Stock)
1.15v / 250 A = 287 Watts
1.20v / 250 A = 300 Watts
1.25v / 250 A = 315 Watts
1.3v / 250 A = 325 Watts
1.35v / 250 A = 337 Watts
1.4v / 250 A = 350 Watts
1.45v / 250 A = 362 Watts

Next is to calculate thermal absorption of copper for the block, which is honestly above me. If someone wants to do the math of the sustained absorption limits, would could determine the theoretical maximum cooling potential of a waterblock, air-cooling and AIO.

Frankly it is not needed. With a Alder Lake CPU that isn't modified, the range is fairly straight forward. 300 watts generated by the CPU is the average limit for a waterblock. If it takes 1.25V for 5.1 Ghz, you cannot sustain 5.2+ @ 1.35v+ without some sort of modification to the IHS, mount or cooling solution. Those who can run Cinebench R23 at 5.3Ghz are unlikely to sustain that. I think it is important to distinguish what a valid overclock is. For me, it is 24/7 maximum load in the application you plan on using. In the past Prim95 was the end-all program for overclockers and still is, but that basically means your are limited to 1.2v. You can also get away with spikes in peak loads as it takes time for thermal soak to occur.

To sum this up. It takes X amount of time for a material to reach its absorption limits (or thermal soak) before that energy in the form of heat must be expel by other means. A single benchmark run is not a good indication of thermal cooling capacity. Simply put, those who put screenshots of a high overclock with a single short benchmark and say a air-cooler or AIO is fine, is just wrong. That of course depends on the target wattage and application.


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## phanbuey (Jan 2, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> To sum this up. It takes X amount of time for a material to reach its absorption limits (or thermal soak) before that energy in the form of heat must be expel by other means. A single benchmark run is not a good indication of thermal cooling capacity. Simply put, those who put screenshots of a high overclock with a single short benchmark and say a air-cooler or AIO is fine, is just wrong. That of course depends on the target wattage and application.



This would be sub optimal unless your using your computer for 24/7 applications which use 100% of your CPU, in which case, you don't want an overclock to begin with, and you probably don't even want a 12900k.

You DO want to make sure your computer is stable by stressing the OC and running a long term stability test, but if you're trying to shoot for a general purpose computer there is no reason to make sure that you can handle full throttle 24/7 max heat soak since that will virtually never happen, and if in the 0.001% of the time that it does the chip will simply downclock slightly and be fine.

I think leaving 200Mhz on the table 100% of the time when games and general apps can benefit, just so you can keep it below tjmax for the 0.001% of the time that it even gets there makes no sense.

tldr; going beyond the limits of your cooling solution in a unrealistic stress test (prime 95) is fine as long as you don't run prime 95 for a living.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 3, 2022)

GerKNG said:


> that's absolutely no Problem.
> 
> My NH D15 has zero problems cooling my 10900k at 5.1 Ghz (that pulls almost 260W in R23)
> and my 12600k at 5.1 Ghz (with a way higher thermal density) runs at around 90°C because of the almost 1.45V
> ...



You are correct on Intel CPUs in shorter bursts AND with the thinner IHS the more recent gens have. But if you are unlucky in the lottery, your IHS contact can still be below par, you can still have an uneven heatspreader, you can still get a CPU that wants more volts for X frequency, etc. etc. My data comes from the worst-case situation of >4 cores and A. no soldered IHS and B. the thicker IHS Coffee Lake still had. But also: we're still talking fundamentally about Intel Core architecture and the node hasn't really changed its limitations - not in the least because Intel seems adamant to clock it way out of its comfort zone. It may need less volts under 5 Ghz, but go above and you're pulling more watts through a smaller node that has even more cores. That's why the top end SKUs barely perform better in net/real-use cases and are in general utterly pointless on any MSDT platform. But hey, epeen wants epeen stuff... even in a crossover gen to DDR5 where more bandwidth gets unlocked over dual channel.

Basically what I'm seeing on 1.35V is representative of a shitty ADL bin, and yes they happen on K CPUs because Intel is still producing monolithic large dies that still vary in quality quite a bit. This is part of the reason Ryzen has little trouble equalling ADL perf within a tighter wattage range, 241W is unheard of in that camp.

Devil is always in the details, its about reading the numbers right and applying historical context 

Another bit of context is that you are cooling a 12600k. Not a 12900k.



phanbuey said:


> tldr; going beyond the limits of your cooling solution in a unrealistic stress test (prime 95) is fine as long as you don't run prime 95 for a living.


Until you hit a hot summer day and you just happened to do some CPU heavy task. The problem is the burst temp you might exceed momentarily. You simply need some headroom with every OC, why not lose the last 200mhz because they evidently don't give you much of an advantage at all - its just there so you can say 'look, it goes up to eleven'.
And let's be realistic here. 200mhz on 5000 is what... 4%? If that's two FPS in a game, we're optimistic, but in 99% of all use cases its not even that, the GPU limits you earlier. For most other applications you might count that advantage in seconds on a full day.

Its very curious how the sentiment with some overclockers radically changed over the last five or seven years in this regard. Leaving headroom for your 24/7 OC was always good practice but somehow ever since AVX offsets got introduced and AVX started killing Intel's advertised frequencies, people have turned to your reasoning.  Its hilarious.

Its all show, and utter BS to say you can get a higher frequency. But the OC is not stable. Its simply what it is, and it will bite you in the ass sooner or later. CPU loads increase over time, and degradation (even ever so slightly) does occur over time. No headroom is a recipe for troubleshooting later down the line - especially if you're not swapping every other gen.

But-  that's just my opinion. OC your CPU wherever you want, its your silicon  But I've seen too many topics of people mimicking some Youtuber and then left to wonder why everything doesn't seem to line up. Case in point... this topic.


----------



## phanbuey (Jan 3, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> You are correct on Intel CPUs in shorter bursts AND with the thinner IHS the more recent gens have. But if you are unlucky in the lottery, your IHS contact can still be below par, you can still have an uneven heatspreader, you can still get a CPU that wants more volts for X frequency, etc. etc. My data comes from the worst-case situation of >4 cores and A. no soldered IHS and B. the thicker IHS Coffee Lake still had. But also: we're still talking fundamentally about Intel Core architecture and the node hasn't really changed its limitations - not in the least because Intel seems adamant to clock it way out of its comfort zone. It may need less volts under 5 Ghz, but go above and you're pulling more watts through a smaller node that has even more cores. That's why the top end SKUs barely perform better in net/real-use cases and are in general utterly pointless on any MSDT platform. But hey, epeen wants epeen stuff... even in a crossover gen to DDR5 where more bandwidth gets unlocked over dual channel.
> 
> Basically what I'm seeing on 1.35V is representative of a shitty ADL bin, and yes they happen on K CPUs because Intel is still producing monolithic large dies that still vary in quality quite a bit. This is part of the reason Ryzen has little trouble equalling ADL perf within a tighter wattage range, 241W is unheard of in that camp.
> 
> ...



The nature of overclocking has changed quite a bit - we used to apply flat OC's and needed to be super careful not to let the chip go over a certain temp or very bad things would happen very quickly.

New chips dynamically OC and throttle 10C below the safe limits, account for bursts, and can easily run lower clock to stay there (instead of the ol' BSOD/ black screen freeze).  You now can run them with no heatsink and do no damage to the chip.  So that summer day @ 100% is just a small automatic downclock within the safety limits of the chip (the same silicon that runs fairly regularly @100C-90C in laptops and prebuilts while still lasting beyond its useful lifespan).

So to limit your OC (clock-wise) based on prime small fft *heat* that will artificially raise your temps 30C-40C above any normal conditions is what we used to have to do (to make sure that "worst case" didn't break the chip), but these days IMO that's not a necessity anymore.  Worst case now is a bump against the throttle and a tiny loss of performance during that bump.  If you find the sweet spot OC for your chip that should virtually never happen.

Do run stress tests to make sure the OC doesn't error, sure, but I wouldn't artificially limit on temp (especially heat/power of small fft on a multi-core chip, which is extreme) - when the chip already has heat limits built in.


----------



## tox1c90 (Jan 3, 2022)

Braegnok said:


> With i9-12900K PL2 @ 200W, MORA 420 Pro cooling,.. running R23 my CPU will get up to 67c.
> 
> It's vary unlikely the Corsair H150i will shed the temps this chip generates at full load drawing 200W,.. your going to be fine however in most cases.
> 
> This chip does indeed run vary hot at full load,.. even with a custom loop.


Your screenshot shows a minimum CPU package temperature of just 12°C, do you bench outside or chill your water below room temperature? 

My package usually has minimum temperature of ~28°C under comfortable ambient conditions (at 23°C room temp.), which will be the case for most people I think. That means for comparison one roughly has to add the difference between ambient/initial temperature (~16°C) to all of your values. I.e., your max temp. under most people's ambient conditions would be more like ~83°C instead of ~67°C, at least if you do not want to wear a jacket while gaming.

Cooling performance has always to be judged according to DeltaT above ambient, never according to absolute T values. People should always give DeltaT or at least mention the ambient temperature, otherwise the values are basically meaningless.


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## mrthanhnguyen (Jan 4, 2022)

tox1c90 said:


> Your screenshot shows a minimum CPU package temperature of just 12°C, do you bench outside or chill your water below room temperature?
> 
> My package usually has minimum temperature of ~28°C under comfortable ambient conditions (at 23°C room temp.), which will be the case for most people I think. That means for comparison one roughly has to add the difference between ambient/initial temperature (~16°C) to all of your values. I.e., your max temp. under most people's ambient conditions would be more like ~83°C instead of ~67°C, at least if you do not want to wear a jacket while gaming.
> 
> Cooling performance has always to be judged according to DeltaT above ambient, never according to absolute T values. People should always give DeltaT or at least mention the ambient temperature, otherwise the values are basically meaningless.


He put the Mora outside his house and it was snowing I guess.


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## Braegnok (Jan 5, 2022)

I have a window with an HVAC filter on back side of my bench, which is generally open this time of year.

My Chassis front intake fans & Mora both pull in plenty of outside air,.. 







FYI @tox1c90,
The ambient air temperature in my shop, at my bench is climate controlled with radiant heat and or AC, is always at 20.27778 Celsius.


----------



## msnowden (Jan 6, 2022)

Hey, my friend! Based on what you're saying (and forgive me if you actually said this) but I am guessing you're running an Asus motherboard? I have the exact same issue with my Maximus z690 Hero and I am currently in talks with Asus waiting on a call back from their highest level tech support people about this. One thing I have noticed is that out of the box, the board is providing my 12900k with vastly too much voltage. With general gaming, I am hitting 1.45v all the time (intel's limit range for the processor is 0.85 @3.2ghz - 1.275v @ 5.1ghz). There were even spikes to 1.7v when the first BIOS version was still out. When this happened I flipped my PSU off switch as fast as I could because that's when you will start blowing out transistors in the CPU really easily.

I have NO auto AI overclocking set up, just straight defaults on the BIOS and one of the biggest issues I have is temps. I have a custom water loop with 2 300x30mm radiators so I should have no problem cooling this thing. Additionally, I KNOW it's not the cooling system itself that is the issue because my 2080 super is also in the water loop and runs cooler than I honestly expected it to. I am 100% certain there is an issue with Asus' default BIOS that is causing issues with voltages and temps. This is further made clear to me because I even went so far as to do a negative voltage offset which is pretty basic stuff for me and with even a 0.05v offset I could not get the CPU to run a game without hard crashing. Their z600 series of boards are IMO a complete mess and I totally regret the purchase.

My idle temps are generally around 28c but will randomly jump to the 40s and stay there. Even worse, when I join a game of BF they spike upwards of 85-90 while joining and then drop back down to the 60s which is still way too high.

My overall point of this rant is, I will let you know what they say when they get back to me but you are not alone in this, this generation of Asus boards are total shit...Let's not forget, they put a capacitor in backward polarity on a bunch of the Maximus z690 Hero boards and had to recall that entire serial generation..........................................


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 6, 2022)

It's not the boards, its the 12900k. I have a asus z690-a board and 12700k and i have no problems, custom loop too.


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## msnowden (Jan 6, 2022)

Tigger said:


> It's not the boards, its the 12900k. I have a asus z690-a board and 12700k and i have no problems, custom loop too.


If it weren't the board, I wouldn't have 1.45v being thrown into the processor at random times when it should never be going past 1.3. I don't disagree that these processors run hot AF regardless, but the boards are NOT optimized for them and it is unquestionably a large part of the heat issues. Not to mention I have seen tons of people with 12900s playing BF and other games running in the mid 40s while playing. This is 20 degrees cooler than mine. I have also reseated the waterblock on the CPU twice with no change whatsoever. It is 90% the board and 10% the processor.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 7, 2022)

msnowden said:


> If it weren't the board, I wouldn't have 1.45v being thrown into the processor at random times when it should never be going past 1.3. I don't disagree that these processors run hot AF regardless, but the boards are NOT optimized for them and it is unquestionably a large part of the heat issues. Not to mention I have seen tons of people with 12900s playing BF and other games running in the mid 40s while playing. This is 20 degrees cooler than mine. I have also reseated the waterblock on the CPU twice with no change whatsoever. It is 90% the board and 10% the processor.



Have you tried a manual voltage? then look to see if it exceeds that? On my board there is a place you can set the max voltage, i have set it at 1.29v for mine, i can pop in my bios and find it, and post you a pic of it if you like?


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## msnowden (Jan 7, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Have you tried a manual voltage? then look to see if it exceeds that? On my board there is a place you can set the max voltage, i have set it at 1.29v for mine, i can pop in my bios and find it, and post you a pic of it if you like?


I have tried it. I set it to 1.35v just to test and it didn't give a crap, my vcore was still going to 1.45v.


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## ir_cow (Jan 7, 2022)

My review ASUS Z690 Hero is only using 1.15v for the 12900K. Do you have those auto OC things enabled? That would do it... @msnownden

Even pre-retail BIOS didnt do that crazy voltage your talking about. I just updated the BIOS to the newest last week. Still the same.

Where are you seeing this voltage readout from?

To be completely honest, i think its something your doing in software or with a BIOS oc. Use the "Clear CMOS" button on the rear IO and check to make sure you have no 3rd party (or asus) software doing some auto overclock for you.

Besides backwords cap (which asus owned up to and recalled), ASUS board in the past and now are good. I stand by my review recommendation that it is a good product. However that can change if ASUS continues to have backward caps and such.


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## Braegnok (Jan 7, 2022)

+1,.. seems like is running OC.

My system in AI OC will apply 1.43v with P-Cores @ 5.4GHz,..



@msnownden,.. There are several ways to set Adaptive Voltage Mode, configure your V/F curve to run lower voltages.

Use this guide to configure your Adaptive Voltage, use Advanced Voltage Offset, and configure a negative voltage offset on your V/F points. This will under-volt your CPU at specific parts of the V/F curve, and during all-core boost which will result in lower temperatures, thus providing you some headroom on your cooling solution to prevent spikes of 85-90c when your gaming. https://skatterbencher.com/2021/11/04/alder-lake-overclocking-whats-new/


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## mrthanhnguyen (Jan 7, 2022)

Default bios setting with supercool direct die. Water temp is 23c.


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## ir_cow (Jan 7, 2022)

@mrthanhnguyen Your only pulling 183 watts. 43c is good, but not crazy lower considering the power draw


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## mrthanhnguyen (Jan 8, 2022)

305w. My cpu definitely can go lower vcore.



ir_cow said:


> @mrthanhnguyen Your only pulling 183 watts. 43c is good, but not crazy lower considering the power draw


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## ir_cow (Jan 8, 2022)

Okay but can you sustain that? This is kinda the whole thread loop. People keep posting they can run X GHZ at Z voltage but its always one run. Your Vcore is 1.43v. Direct Die will lower your core temps a good 15c  and 5.45 Ghz is impressive,  I'll give you that for sure!

Makes me want to do Direct Die myself.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Well, just received my ddr5 and... As i was saying, the temperatures are nowhere near what the reviews are claiming. Got a u12a single tower cooler, hitting around 70 to 72 in cbr20 and 77 on cbr23. In gaming... Its usually at 50c, maybe 60 if i try cyberpunk at 720p with a 3090.

So yeah... As i was saying for 5 posts and random users kept telling me i was wrong...


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Well, just received my ddr5 and... As i was saying, the temperatures are nowhere near what the reviews are claiming. Got a u12a single tower cooler, hitting around 70 to 72 in cbr20 and 77 on cbr23. In gaming... Its usually at 50c, maybe 60 if i try cyberpunk at 720p with a 3090.
> 
> So yeah... As i was saying for 5 posts and random users kept telling me i was wrong...



Amazing results, got screens?


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Amazing results, got screens?


Got some overclocked numbers here









						Alder Lake CPUs common discussion
					

Intel is going to lock this down IMHO get the BIOS if you have the Z690 Apex or Hero.




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Got some overclocked numbers here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"These are some results on a 12900k with a u12a. Temps hit 90c Single is at 5.6-5.7, depending on the workload and multi is 5.2-5.3. Using OCTVB to downclock at 85c"

All I see here is a line saying you're hitting higher temps than what you report in this thread here... and no screenshots of said temperatures.
I smell...bullshit. And nonetheless you're still throttling your CPU to stay away from higher temps  Mkay.

You're also running a single, short cinebench run, whereas the whole point was 'what can you sustain'. Pfffff...







And you know what, don't even bother with more evidence. You're on my shitlist for lying.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> "These are some results on a 12900k with a u12a. Temps hit 90c Single is at 5.6-5.7, depending on the workload and multi is 5.2-5.3. Using OCTVB to downclock at 85c"
> 
> All I see here is a line saying you're hitting higher temps than what you report in this thread here... and no screenshots of said temperatures.
> I smell...bullshit
> ...


Cause its highly oced, lol. Im running 5.3 ghz on all cores and 5.7 single. 

I dont get people like you, not admitting when they are wrong. Do you expect me to be running at 70c on a 5.3 ghz all core overclock? Ill post you a screen with temps at stock, give me a second. Hope you admit you are wrong then.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Cause its highly oced, lol. Im running 5.3 ghz on all cores and 5.7 single.
> 
> I dont get people like you, not admitting when they are wrong. Do you expect me to be running at 70c on a 5.3 ghz all core overclock? Ill post you a screen with temps at stock, give me a second. Hope you admit you are wrong then.


Read back in the topic where you were epeening over those temps and you know why 'people like me' (about everyone in the topic) say you're full of it.

Enjoy that OC.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Here you go


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Here you go



1m27sec run, 200W package (not 241W as PL1=PL2 specifies) and 4.9 Ghz.

Well done sir, that's exactly not what this topic was comparing to. "Muh I'm running 5.3 Ghz on all cores". No you're not.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> 1m27sec run, 200W package (not 241W as PL1=PL2 specifies) and 4.9 Ghz.
> 
> Well done sir, that's exactly not what this topic was comparing to. "Muh I'm running 5.3 Ghz on all cores". No you're not.


Are you trolling man? The above picture is with the cpu at STOCK. The tempetatures, as ive said in the first post and you asked for screenshot, are in the 70s.

Im not sure honestly if you are trolling or just pretending so you dont have to admit you are wrong. Either way, you are a waste of time dont want to interract with people like you


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Are you trolling man? The above picture is with the cpu at STOCK. The tempetatures, as ive said in the first post and you asked for screenshot, are in the 70s.
> 
> Im not sure honestly if you are trolling or just pretending so you dont have to admit you are wrong. Either way, you are a waste of time dont want to interract with people like you



You really need to re-read this topic. I'll leave it at that. If you want to imagine that everyone is trolling and you're right for having results that are way off, good on you. Its lonely at the top, you know. One thing is very clear, you haven't really understood how these CPUs work, just yet, or you're very good at misdirection.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> You really need to re-read this topic. I'll leave it at that. If you want to imagine that everyone is trolling and you're right for having results that are way off, good on you. Its lonely at the top, you know. One thing is very clear, you haven't really understood how these CPUs work, just yet, or you're very good at misdirection.


No i dont need yo reread anything. I said im getting 70s on stock with a U12a, you asked for screenshot, i provided them. Anything and everything else is because you dont want to admit yoi were wrong. 

Especially on gaming workloads, claiming it spikes to 240+ watts is a joke. Was playong 2 hours of warzone at cpu bound settings (250+ fps), highest recorded temperatute was 58...usually the cpu sits around 50.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> No i dont need yo reread anything. I said im getting 70s on stock with a U12a, you asked for screenshot, i provided them. Anything and everything else is because you dont want to admit yoi were wrong.
> 
> Especially on gaming workloads, claiming it spikes to 240+ watts is a joke. Was playong 2 hours of warzone at cpu bound settings (250+ fps), highest recorded temperatute was 58...usually the cpu sits around 50.



You really should though, so you can discover your result is utterly irrelevant to the topic or troubleshooting OPs issues.



fevgatos said:


> First of all, half the comments in this section are from ignorant people that have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. I've no idea why they are even posting since they don't have any basic knowledge.
> 
> Now for OP's issue, obviously something is wrong. Alderlake is extremely efficient during gaming and does not consume 240w like some people before suggested (lol). Just reapply your paste and see if there is any improvement.





ir_cow said:


> Ha! I have two Alder Lakes CPU that say otherwise. Depends on the application you use and the automatic voltage that is applied by the MB. Even if you don't overclock, MBs can have extra Boost or Turbo stuff applied without you knowing.
> 
> Edit: Just tested a stock i9-12900K. BF5 = 95 Watts, Cinebench R20 = 189 Watts, Prime95 = 237 Watts.  That's at 1.12v. If the MB is applying 1.2 or higher that would easily lead to 200+. The other things it could be is the AIO pump isn't working correctly (or slow fans). The sticker is still on the AIO cooler. Poor contact with the cooler. Bad CPU sensor. High voltage. That is all I can think of right now.
> 
> ...





plastiscɧ said:


> I think you have not read correctly what it is about:
> It is about temperatures in power peaks.
> 
> and your concept of efficiency is more likely to come from the 50s of the 18th century.
> ...





Vayra86 said:


> Our disagreement?! I just explained to you why I saw what I saw on air at a certain wattage. Im supporting that with other Intel CPUs running into temps well over 80C when presented with usage at and over 150W.
> 
> Im absolutely not interested in discussing this in a help topic, Im not here to epeen about temps with you. Refer to earlier posts. Advice was given and if your point to derail this topic was 'you idiots dont know ADL and I do then again, I invite you to help the OP with better advice than what was given.
> 
> ...





looniam said:


> *sigh* NO.
> the spikes are constant enough to raise temps but STILL NOT get caught with software but you know their there cuz of temps!



Im trying to help you, here. You are truly missing the point.

You are seeing lower temps because you are not running anything sustained, heat soak never happens in 1m30. You are seeing 200W because its all Cinebench's simple workload can pull.

A 1m30 synthetic run is not a scenario equal to the OP.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

And whats there to read. Its obvious, and to me was from the very beginning that op did something wrong. After testing for my self, i stick to that opinion. Its not the cpu, im having way better temps with probably a worse cooler.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> And whats there to read. Its obvious, and to me was from the very beginning that op did something wrong. After testing for my self, i stick to that opinion. Its not the cpu, im having way better temps with probably a worse cooler.



OP did something wrong indeed. Thanks for contributing.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> You are seeing lower temps because you are not running anything sustained, heat soak never happens in 1m30. You are seeing 200W because its all Cinebench's simple workload can pull.
> 
> A 1m30 synthetic run is not a scenario equal to the OP.


Actually thats wrong. I don't have an aio. Water has thermal capacity and it takes time for the heat soak to happen. With aios it takes 1 minutes maybe 2,depending on the actual weight of the cooler.

I can run cbr23 all night and all day at stock and the temperatures wont exceed 80.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Actually thats wrong. I don't have an aio. Water has thermal capacity and it takes time for the heat soak to happen. With aios it takes 1 minutes maybe 2,depending on the actual weight of the cooler.
> 
> I can run cbr23 all night and all day at stock and the temperatures wont exceed 80.



Aio's have maybe 100ml of water compared to maybe 1L+ in a custom loop so will take much longer to soak in the custom loop.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Aio's have maybe 100ml of water compared to maybe 1L+ in a custom loop so will take much longer to soak in the custom loop.


Dunno about custom loops, i literally have no idea. The op has an AIO, i think he should be getting better temperatures than I am


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## md2003 (Jan 17, 2022)

Temps from my system running some low intensive tasks (60-70watts low 30°C, ac freezer 2 360). C23 10min run with 250w limit and climps up to 95°C (one core peak reading).


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

md2003 said:


> Temps from my system running some low intensive tasks (60-70watts low 30°C, ac freezer 2 360). C23 10min run with 250w limit and climps up to 95°C (one core peak reading).


Then maybe the u12a is miraculous. I need to pull over 280w to get over 95c..


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> Actually thats wrong. I don't have an aio. Water has thermal capacity and it takes time for the heat soak to happen. With aios it takes 1 minutes maybe 2,depending on the actual weight of the cooler.
> 
> I can run cbr23 all night and all day at stock and the temperatures wont exceed 80.



Right, but you're also pulling just about 200W. Not 241W. And you're stuck at 4.9 Ghz all core because you're _only running cinebench._
So maybe its a miracle, but more interesting to me is what makes up the difference. You don't have a magical chip, you pull as much as others do running cinebench.
The difference is what might answer something for OP, the rest is not really helping anyone. If there is anything I've learned over years of OCing, its that miracles don't exist 

So no, not trolling. I'm genuinely curious AND I hate liars with a passion  Who knows what's set in your BIOS right now, for example. Perhaps you've glossed over a setting here or there, I really can't tell. All I CAN tell is that your results deviate from the norm.


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Right, but you're also pulling just about 200W. Not 241W. And you're stuck at 4.9 Ghz all core because you're _only running cinebench._
> So maybe its a miracle, but more interesting to me is what makes up the difference. You don't have a magical chip, you pull as much as others do running cinebench.
> The difference is what might answer something for OP, the rest is not really helping anyone.


I can pull up to around 300 watts without throttling. 

My guess is, motherboard socket (got the z690 apex) or cooler making better contact cause of better bracket.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 17, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> I can pull up to around 300 watts without throttling.
> 
> My guess is, motherboard socket (got the z690 apex) or cooler making better contact cause of better bracket.



What vcores are you seeing under those wattages? That could explain a thing or two, as well as cooler application, but even then, that would mean everyone else got a worse mount than you


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## fevgatos (Jan 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> What vcores are you seeing under those wattages? That could explain a thing or two, as well as cooler application, but even then, that would mean everyone else got a worse mount than you


There is an article on igors about sockets bending during installation causing higher cpu temperatures. I installed the bracket before installing the cpu so i wouldnt have that same issue (assuming the article is correct). 

Not really sure about my volts when overclocked, Im running adaptive, they fluctuate from 1.16 at 5.1 ghz all the way up to 1.58 for single thread workloads. During cbr20 it can hold 5.2 and its around 1.234. Also i have octvb which lowers voltage automatically depending on temperature, so its kinda hard for me get an accurate reading. 

I have a p core sp of 93 if thats any help


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## mrthanhnguyen (Jan 17, 2022)

push the chip to the limit with linx.
5.5 pcore/4.3 e core, 46 ring, xmp ram 6400c40


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## fevgatos (Jan 18, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Right, but you're also pulling just about 200W. Not 241W. And you're stuck at 4.9 Ghz all core because you're _only running cinebench._
> So maybe its a miracle, but more interesting to me is what makes up the difference. You don't have a magical chip, you pull as much as others do running cinebench.
> The difference is what might answer something for OP, the rest is not really helping anyone. If there is anything I've learned over years of OCing, its that miracles don't exist
> 
> So no, not trolling. I'm genuinely curious AND I hate liars with a passion  Who knows what's set in your BIOS right now, for example. Perhaps you've glossed over a setting here or there, I really can't tell. All I CAN tell is that your results deviate from the norm.


Just used the pc a bit and noticed something. Specifically in forza horizon 5, the moment you double click to run the game there is a huge spike on usage and consumption goes to 180w. Its for a second and havent noticed it in any other games yet, but maybe the op is seeing something like that? Cyberpunk does something similar but its only a 120w spike


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## tox1c90 (Jan 31, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> I can run cbr23 all night and all day at stock and the temperatures wont exceed 80.


Don’t you notice that „stock“ settings for most people means that the 12900k is pulling full 241W during the whole CB23 run?
I have not seen a single board so far which applies stock voltages in a way that a CB23 run does not force the CPU to draw full 241W (the Intel PL1/2 stock values).

If I do some undervolting like -0.1V, then I can leave PL1/2=241W but the CPU will never reach this during CB23 and max out at 200W. In this case I get similar temps like you, thats easy.
If I use auto voltages, CPU will hit the 241W power limit.

And power draw is the only parameter besides ambient temperature that matters. 241W vs. 200W means 10-20 degrees higher temperature with the same cooling, there is no way around it.

You can not tell the people who show that they draw 241W in CB23 that their temperatures are rubbish, and as a proof show them better temperatures you reached with 40W less power draw.

If we want to compare the cooling, we need to have exact the same power draw. So I guess when we want to compare to your temps we have to set PL1/2=200W, then it would be fair.


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## fevgatos (Jan 31, 2022)

tox1c90 said:


> Don’t you notice that „stock“ settings for most people means that the 12900k is pulling full 241W during the whole CB23 run?
> I have not seen a single board so far which applies stock voltages in a way that a CB23 run does not force the CPU to draw full 241W (the Intel PL1/2 stock values).
> 
> If I do some undervolting like -0.1V, then I can leave PL1/2=241W but the CPU will never reach this during CB23 and max out at 200W. In this case I get similar temps like you, thats easy.
> ...


Thats not true actually, completely stock i max out at around 77c. Thats peak temperature, not average. Also if i remember correctly it doesn't hit 240w, it stays around 225-230

Also you need to realise im running a small 120 single tower cooler, not a huge 360 aio like the op


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## ir_cow (Jan 31, 2022)

This thread is still going? Once again me and @Vayra86 (among others) have pointed out time and time again. Alder Lake temps depend on the workload, voltage and P1=P2.

If the MB has this TDP "unlocked" aka 4093 Watts, a 12900K will pull 260-270 watts in Cinebench. One run isnt enough to thermally soak a cooler....

If you have it locked at the AIO setting or Air cooler setting, it will be less. The % loss is like 9% from 150 TDP to 270 as wiz covered in one of the articles ( and posted here). I use Alder Lake every day for reviewing. Don't tell me a air-cooler is capable of handling long durations of heavy loads with a 12900K. Unless that P1=P2 has been changed, its total BS.


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## fevgatos (Jan 31, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> This thread is still going? Once again me and @Vayra86 (among others) have pointed out time and time again. Alder Lake temps depend on the workload, voltage and P1=P2.
> 
> If the MB has this TDP "unlocked" aka 4093 Watts, a 12900K will pull 260-270 watts in Cinebench. One run isnt enough to thermally soak a cooler....
> 
> If you have it locked at the AIO setting or Air cooler setting, it will be less. The % loss is like 9% from 150 TDP to 270 as wiz covered in one of the articles ( and posted here). I use Alder Lake every day for reviewing. Don't tell me a air-cooler is capable of handling long durations of heavy loads with a 12900K. Unless that P1=P2 has been changed, its total BS.


Once i go home ill prove it. Default settings on my apex, 4096 watts power limit, 10minutes cbr23. Is that test okay with you?

It certainly doesn't draw 270w on cbr23, I get that much oced to 5.2+ ghz

The 270 watts you are quoting are for system power, it says right there on the graph. It does not consume more than the stock 240w whether you have the power limits removed or not. Actually with power limits removed it seems to consume 15-20w less, which aligns with my findings. Mine runs at 225w at stock

So you might be using it everyday for reviewing but your numbers are just wrong

Here you go, it doesn't get any more stock than that, everything was reset to default from the bios, PL1=PL2=4095w. It does NOT consume 270 watts in cbr23. You say you use it everyday for reviewing, I call BS. You should have known how much it consumes if you did. There is no freaking way a stock 12900k hits 270w at stock even with removed PL's in cinebench, lol.


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## ir_cow (Jan 31, 2022)

I cannot comment on R23 yet, but R20 does. Every single Z690 MB I reviewed pulls 270+ in R20. I'll give it a go tonight and see. I have a 12600 and 12900K to try it with.

I have verified this the best I can with multi-meter and amp clamp. The software is accurate (within 5%)

Once again I stand by my reasoning. you're not pulling 270w your air cooler is soaking up 200 watt which is acceptable for a air cooler. Now if you're still trying to say that your air cooler as good as a AIO or water cooling you're wrong because your only at 200 watts.

Why your 12900K is only drawing 210 in R23, IDK. Maybe its that software, I'll find out soon enough.


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## fevgatos (Jan 31, 2022)

I can overvolt it a bit and make it pull 240w. It will still handle it like a charm. As I've said, it starts throttling at about 280 to 300 watts.


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## tox1c90 (Jan 31, 2022)

Your claim is simply not true. If I remove power limits (=4096W) on my MSI Z690 Tomahawk which is actually the default with this board, my 12900k draws 290W average in CB23 (all voltages on auto) reported by hwinfo (package power).

If it consumes much less on your build, then it’s probably your board applying less voltage.


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## fevgatos (Jan 31, 2022)

tox1c90 said:


> Your claim is simply not true. If I remove power limits (=4096W) on my MSI Z690 Tomahawk which is actually the default with this board, my 12900k draws 290W average in CB23 (all voltages on auto) reported by hwinfo (package power).
> 
> If it consumes much less on your build, then it’s probably your board applying less voltage.


My claim also aligns with techpowerups claim, he reports 270w SYSTEM consumption on cbr23. What's your voltage under cbr23? Mine is 1.19


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## ir_cow (Jan 31, 2022)

You


fevgatos said:


> My claim also aligns with techpowerups claim, he reports 270w SYSTEM consumption on cbr23. What's your voltage under cbr23? Mine is 1.19


You may claim 270 but your screenshot is 210..

1.15-1.2v is stock voltage from turbo from what I've seen. I suspect your power limiter is in fact enabled in the BIOS.


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## fevgatos (Feb 1, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> You
> 
> You may claim 270 but your screenshot is 210..
> 
> 1.15-1.2v is stock voltage from turbo from what I've seen. I suspect your power limiter is in fact enabled in the BIOS.


You know the difference between system and CPU right? 

No the power limiter isn't enabled, you can actually see it in hwinfo. It lists power limits. Its right there on the screenshot


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## ir_cow (Feb 1, 2022)

fevgatos said:


> You know the difference between system and CPU right?


This is getting old... CPU Package Power : Peak 216. Sorry for rounding down before. 
What are you trying to defend again? Please explain to the popcorn audience, I'm sure they are at a loss as well.


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## fevgatos (Feb 1, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> This is getting old... CPU Package Power : Peak 216. Sorry for rounding down before.
> What are you trying to defend again? Please explain to the popcorn audience, I'm sure they are at a loss as well.


That your first post at the top of this page is wrong. 12900k does not pull 270w on cinebench according to me and techpowrups review. You are also wrong about air coolijg not being able to keep it from throttling. I have a small single tower 120 cooler and it does the job brilliantly.


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## Alessa (May 28, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> Once again me and @Vayra86 (among others) have pointed out time and time again. Alder Lake temps depend on the workload, voltage and P1=P2.


I have CPU temperature spikes also with the 12900k but i am not sure from where they come from..
They do not seem to come from workload or Vcore voltage or Watts used..

using 50ms refresh on HWinfo i am trying to find out what is causing these temperature spikes without any luck..

The temperature spikes suddenly hit + 80 C  without any apparent big spike in core usage, or Vcore voltage, or Cpu Package power, or disk write activity....


Any idea how i can find out where the CPU temperatures spikes comes from?

maybe by looking at other graph value in HWinfo while the temperature spikes?


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## eidairaman1 (May 28, 2022)

Is it crashing?


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## P4-630 (May 28, 2022)

Or get a 46W TDP Celeron.


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## Alessa (May 28, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> Is it crashing?


It does not seem to be not crashing.

Is there a way to pinpoint the cause of the 12900k  temperature spikes using HWinfo..?

maybe i should monitor some other HWinfo value graphs..?


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## ir_cow (May 28, 2022)

@Alessa Why is your vcore at 1.37~ V?


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## Alessa (May 28, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> @Alessa Why is your vcore at 1.37~ V?


it is the voltage that the Asus z690 extreme AI overclocking kinda choose for my AI all core 5.3ghz overclocking, with small E-core disable, also according to the Load line 4 setting i choose to reduce the temperatures.

it stays at 1.37v because i am using Windows 7,
and for some reason the boost seems to be broken and all core are always at 5.3 ghz .


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## P4-630 (May 29, 2022)

I remember my Asus Z170 board also used excessive core voltage when set to "auto overclock", I think it's better to test and set Vcore and overclock manually if you want to overclock.


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## Alessa (May 29, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> @Alessa Why is your vcore at 1.37~ V?


on this recorded 73C temperature spike the Vcore voltage seem to have dropped to 1.296V...

Maybe it was that that raised the temperature?


could it be crashing like eidairaman1 said?


eidairaman1 said:


> Is it crashing?


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## eidairaman1 (May 29, 2022)

Alessa said:


> on this recorded 73C temperature spike the Vcore voltage seem to have dropped to 1.296V...
> 
> Maybe it was that that raised the temperature?
> 
> ...


Crashing is lockups/freezing or BSODs


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## Alessa (May 29, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> Crashing is lockups/freezing or BSODs


it does not freeze or BSOD, but these temperature spikes seems abnormal.

Many other people also have temperature spikes with the 12900k
maybe it comes from the same problem as mine...
it would be great if we could find a way to pinpoint the cause of these spikes..

If HWinfo sensors with 50 ms refresh cannot find the problem,
should i try using the ROG True Voltician oscilloscope that comes with the Asus extreme motherboard..?


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## ir_cow (May 29, 2022)

Looking at the graph you provided, the spikes happen during a write session. So the system is doing something. I am also not surprised by those temps at 1.35+ V. If you did a real stress test, it would be in the 90s or hit the 100 Tj.Max.


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## eidairaman1 (May 29, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> Looking at the graph you provided, the spikes happen during a write session. So the system is doing something. I am also not surprised by those temps at 1.35+ V. If you did a real stress test, it would be in the 90s or hit the 100 Tj.Max.


The OS does maintenance in the background while idle, it does not take coffee breaks like it did during xp days. The OS auto Trims/Defrags, to disable it requires a registry setting

To me the OPs "problem" is not a problem but the natural order of things established by software and hardware makers.

The only way to know for sure is to run the system bare bones with the OS and Drivers, no rgb software, no codecs.

No games/loaders.

This is why I manage services.msc and msconfig, task scheduler

Also WUD has a nasty habit of phoning home like malware/virus busting tools.


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## Athlonite (Jun 30, 2022)

Something is running  in the background use task manager to keep an eye on what processes are using CPU time when idle 

JayzTwoCents did a handy dandy undervolt video for the 12900K give it a watch


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## Daftfader (Oct 15, 2022)

These new 12000's serise react diferant to older gens, esecially when all the auto OC bells and whisltes are turned on. Spikes on single cores are 100 normal as that core gets picked to process something. 

Now if over time ALL you temps magically get hotter, or the clocks magically get more OCed. That would be the AI cooler grader not reacting fast enough possibly. If I had my PC on idel for ages, my coolers effeciency score would go up, and then if randomly after days of it being barely taxed, I turned on hitman3 with settings maxed, my acceptable clocks at max load would of crept up so much i used to imsta crash (my mobo manufacture asus) has fixed it so its not as agressive as at first, but there's many AI sliding scales effecting these CPU's so things randomly changing over time is not uncommon. If OCing, a mild one of using AI with no AI controlling your cooler efficiency (but imp any auto ai OC on these CPUs is just a waste of power apart from one rarely used) as it OCs the most when your not using it, and throttles when you are. 

It coule be its inabiloty to change its settings after a period of low use thats caused temps to suddenly go up, amd may go back down over time given u are using it a lot. 

Try by resetting your cooler ai, running timespy for 30 mins, then immidiatly going and setting your cooler AI to trained and to never update your cooler score. This caused my temps and clocks to creep up over time, doesn't sound like your exact issue, but hopefully give you an idea of where to start and what these CPU's mobos are doing behind the scenes. A loooot of AI controlled OC related stuff. And if you exact CPU in on the boaderline of two presets it may be switching depending on load or time ised etcetc. 

Idk, hopefully it helps you work out the issue!


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