# 3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?



## ecopsorn (May 8, 2020)

Hi guys
I'm at a loss because I feel my system can do much better than it actually does.
This is my system I've built in March 2020:


AMD Ryzen 7 3800X (AM4, 3.90GHz, 8-Core)                             Noctua NH-D15 Chromax                             ASUS Rog Strix X570-E Gaming (AM4, AMD X570, ATX)                             MSI GeForce RTX 2070S GAMING X TRIO (8GB)                             Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro (2x, 16GB, DDR4-3200, DIMM 288)                             Samsung 970 EVO Plus (1000GB, M.2 2280)                             Corsair Crystal 570X RGB                             2x Corsair iCUE QL120 RGB (120mm, 3x) - 6 fans total                             Corsair Commander Pro (External, 6x)                             Corsair Lighting Node Pro (RGB, 10, 410mm)                             Corsair RM850 *2019* (850W)             

First off, the computer takes *57* seconds from a cold boot until I see the login screen... that is ridiculous given my specs above.
I guess I have to reinstall windows yet another time, but I am sure it is much more than just windows.

Keep in mind, I'm a noob, building my own computer since 20 years, but only approx 4 years 

Some bullets before I get started:

I don't run a manual overclock on the CPU, I read in a couple of threads that PBO is superior to a custom overclock, so I just went with it. According to this guide, I've manually set PBO to - PPT 300, TDC 230, EDC 230. Scalar Manual 2x. Max CPU boost AUTO, thermal throttle AUTO
I run the DOCCP profile
I run the latest UEFI bios 1408, all the latest chipset drivers, gpu, etc.
In cinebench 20 I reach a maximum of 4318 pts, which is pretty low when I see numbers up there at 4700 with 3700x cpus
So what I tried the last days is getting my rams OC'd as best as I can, but I don't get better values in cinebench, mostly they get worse and I end up at around 4100pts.

So my question to you guys, what should I do next. I've spent at least 15 hours and countless DRAM calculator profiles to get more out of the rams. Tried frequencies up to 3600 with looser timings, tried adapting primary timings one by one and so on. Even stranger to me is that all ca. 12 DRAM calc profiles I tested didn't work (no POST) when I punched in all numbers. Only when I tweak primary timings, I do get a POST and can get into windows.
Ram latency is also bad at 83.3ns and what is even more troubling for me, tighter timings sometimes end up in WORSE cinebench results than higher ones.

So I'm not even sure if I should keep tweaking ram or if I should mess around with the CPU again. In any case, having a boot time of 57 till windows and around 1m30sec until everything is loaded is more then WTF for me.

I will post some screenshots now, probably you notice something I simply don't see.
I'd really appreciate some help to get going.

This is what I'm running reaching ca. 4318pts in cinebench
3266 frq, Soc 1.025, DRAM 1.4v, PBO Manual (PPT 300, TDC 230, EDC 230. Scalar Manual 2x. Max CPU boost AUTO, thermal throttle AUTO.) - Timings: 16-18-18-18-36 / PROC ODT 53.3         
















thanks in advance


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## tabascosauz (May 8, 2020)

Turn off PBO. I'm not a fan of BZ's "how to properly optimize Matisse on x manufacturer's boards" because every chip and every board is different. Your chip may like PBO, it may only like certain settings in PBO, or it may despise PBO. There's no guarantee. All these N7 process chips that aren't 3950Xs are wildcards. My 3700X literally runs more efficient in every measure without PBO even though it "clocks" lower; it still gets 100% the performance of PBO in CB R20. I get about 4958-4980 in CB R20 with clocks around 41-41.5x. A 3800X should easily be able to attain those clocks at stock settings. CB is not heavily affected by memory.

83ns is crazy latency at 3200/16. My D-die 3200/16-16-16 is 72ns. No single chiplet Matisse CPU should suffer that kind of latency penalty while 1:1.

Long boot times is indicative of long memory training attempts, which is a symptom of low-end or poor quality ICs. I used to suffer boot times anywhere from 5-10 min when I tried building with my first kit, a Vengeance LPX 3200/16. The only respectable higher end IC from Micron is Rev.E. I've never heard anything great about Rev.B. Chances are a different kit will have different boot times.

Vengeance sucks because it's not Corsair's best stuff. Vengeance RGB, Pro and LPX is where they dump all the poorly binned ICs from Micron, Hynix and Samsung that can't make the cut for higher speed and tighter timings kits. If you want better or more consistent ICs, you need to aim for 3200/14 or 3600/16 rated kits at the very least. G.skill is a solid choice at those speeds, 3200/14 will likely be B-die, 3600/16-19-19 will be CJR/DJR and 3600/16-16-16 will be B-die. 3200/16 can literally be anything.

Low end kits there are a few hiding good ICs. Team and Crucial has a lot of these SKUs hiding either B-die, CJR or Rev.E at mundane speeds like 3000/15. That, or G.skill's new Trident RGB/Neo at specifically 3600/16-19-19 are pretty much guaranteed to be CJR or DJR at 3200/16 prices.

Make sure you're on an up to date BIOS with 1.0.0.4 AGESA.


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## xman2007 (May 8, 2020)

Latency is about right for 3200 16.19.19.36.75, you could try and shoot for 3200 cl 14/16/16/36/60 or even 3400/3600 with the same main timings as you have now as I find higher clocks with slightly higher  timings perform better than lower clocks and tighter timings. Also check your trfc as when left to auto it can sometimes be in the 550-600 area which is way too high and does affect latency and bandwidth, I have mine manually set to 400. You will likely want to change the default vram voltage from 1.35 to 1.45 to acheive these with stability, I have also increased my SOC voltage to 1.1375 (AMD recommends 1.15v as max safe) though I have a Ryzen+ and not a Ryzen 2 chip so I'm not sure how the SOC/IMC voltages differ between these 2.

Also Zen 2 performs better when you are running inifinity fabric and ram as close to 1800/1900 as you can, there is a performance penalty the lower you have the IF set, at the minute you are running it at 1600 1:1 (RAM 3200=1600 bus clock x2) so if you can get to 3600 that will give you not only a boost in RAM performance but also CPU and likely that's where you're losing performance in cinebench r20


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## basco (May 8, 2020)

he should be getting around 4950 points multi and 500 single in cine20
did ya try without PBO ?
does 48° in bios seem high for a noctua d15 ?
could ya look at your temp during load plz ?


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## TheLostSwede (May 8, 2020)

With regards to the boot times, did you install Windows 10 using GPT or MBR? You lose a lot of SSD performance if it's not GPT.
This could be part of the reason for the slow boot times.

This is from a loaner and not my regular machine.





Disabling CSM in the UEFI will save you a few seconds on the boot time, but it's not really what's holding you back.

And a tip, in the UEFI, if you look under Hot Keys, there's an option to take screenshots in the UEF straight to a FAT32 formatted USB drive.

I don't use PBO at all and I still end up boosting 50-75MHz over the official peak boost speeds. Also, forget about any kind of manual overclocking, it's not worth it on these chips. Good CPU cooling is the key thing here.

A couple of small things. Did you check the manual for which DIMM slots to use, as some boards are a bit peculiar about how to populate the slots. Some boards won't even boot if the RAM is in the wrong slots. Apparently A2 and B2 is what you should be using first.
I would also suggest to avoid using D.O.C.P./XMP, but that's just based on my personal experience and it not working well with my RAM.
Have you tried using the DRAM Calculator? It's by far the easiest way to get a good starting place with the memory settings. You don't need to enter all of the things it spits out, you can stop after tRC and then do tRFC and procODT as well. Obviously the Voltage has to be set correctly for the DRAM as well.








						DRAM Calculator for Ryzen (v1.7.3) Download
					

DRAM Calculator for Ryzen helps with overclocking your memory on the AMD Ryzen platform.   It suggests stable memory timing sets optimized for your m




					www.techpowerup.com
				




Have you checked that the M.2 slot is being assigned the right bandwidth? I.e. 4x, not 2x or something similar to that.

How much thermal paste did you apply and is the heatsink mounted properly? This is where a lot of people mess up and they end up with thermal throttling. Maybe install this and show us some readings during load? https://www.hwinfo.com/download/
Something is going on, as even though I don't get the very best Cinebench numbers, I'm still over 5k on the same CPU.








						Post your Cinebench R23 Score
					

My 3600x @ 4.35ghz




					www.techpowerup.com


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## ecopsorn (May 8, 2020)

Hey guys - thanks for all the input so far. It's bedtime here, but I will have a whole session tomorrow where I will get into all you suggest.


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## John Naylor (May 8, 2020)

1.  Im using a box I build 7 years ago ... boots in 15.6 seconds booting off the SSD and 16.5 booting off the SSHD ... so yes you have an issue.

2.   My son has almost the exact same build  but at the last minute before ordering he switched from your board to an MSI gaming board.  However .. just asked my son and he boots to desktop in 23 seconds ... no password so no login screen and lotta stuff happens after that so id guess about 15-16 seconds to login screen.

3.  These days with Muskin bowing out pretty much since DDR4 dropped, it's harder to pick RAM with confidence.  I addition, RAM you  see when new models drop is noit the same RAM you will see 6 months later as all manufacturers switch to cheaper modules after the reviews are out.  The Vengeance pros are popular because of the color and RGB options.  We mostly build hi end Architecture / Engineering / Surveyor AutoCAD and Gaming Systems with a  few Video / Photo Editing boxes now and then.  As such, those users who check the performance charts  fr those applications are usually going with 9900K over 3900x.  



			https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/relative-performance-games-1920-1080.png
		



			https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/photoshop.png
		



			https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/premiere-pro.png
		



			https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/photogrammetry.png
		


For Rendering or Text Recognition builds, we do recommend AMD


			https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/blender.png
		



			https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/ocr-tesseract.png
		


So we don't get to play with AMD builds as often.  Memory is still challenging on Ryzen and, though much improved from previous generations,  we haven't had as much success with it.  More importantly, it isn't having much of an effect .... no doubt you can run certain benchmarks which show significant performance increases ... but we are practically oriented ... we're  concerned with application performance and only those that impact the applications in everyday usage. 

When I have played with it, usually look to go 'where man has gone before" and benefit from their efforts









						AMD Zen 2 Memory Performance Scaling with Ryzen 9 3900X
					

We take a close look at memory scaling on AMD's new Zen 2 Ryzen 3900X, testing both application and gaming performance at seven different memory speed and timing combinations ranging from 2400 MHz all the way up to 4000 MHz.




					www.techpowerup.com
				




One truism remains

"Overall, when looking at the application averages, there's barely a five percent performance gain to be had going from DDR4-2400 to DDR4-3600. Once you take a closer look at the individual tests, it becomes apparent that some apps simply like high memory clock, whereas others prefer tighter timings over the highest clock, and then there are those with barely any performance differences between memory speeds at all. "

And that's the Catch-22 regardless of platform ... tweaking for one application / game can hurt you in others.  And that's the rub tweaking with benchmark apps has no relevance to real world usages in real world apps ... 

As to your problem ... are you seeing anything in the Wndows StartUp or System logs ?  Seen anything unusual in an F8 boot ?


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## dgianstefani (May 9, 2020)

Yeah, sort out the memory, and get the IF to 1800/3600. 
+1 on the 3600/16 or 3200/14 or bust.


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## moproblems99 (May 9, 2020)

Shouldn't the soc be at 1.1v? 1.025 seems low.  Could be why your ram may be having issues.  If you have cjr, you are not likely getting less than 16-19-16-36.  Mine won't boot 16-18-anything. It does do factory timings at 3800 though.


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## TheLostSwede (May 9, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Shouldn't the soc be at 1.1v? 1.025 seems low.  Could be why your ram may be having issues.  If you have cjr, you are not likely getting less than 16-19-16-36.  Mine won't boot 16-18-anything. It does do factory timings at 3800 though.


Yeah, I'd agree on that, although I can run lower than "factory" timings on my kit at 3800MHz. But 16-19-16-19-36 seems to be as low as you can go on the timings. Anything lower and my system won't boot.

There's something odd about that Taiphoon readout, as it says both Samsung and Micron.
@ecopsorn can you take a screenshot that shows the actual memory ICs being used in Taiphoon, as the one you posted is confusing and not the one that tells us what memory ICs are being used in your modules.


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## tabascosauz (May 9, 2020)

@moproblems99 @TheLostSwede yeah, CJR and DJR really don't like going below 16-19. I did have 16-18-18 on DJR for some time and believed it stable at first, but the BSODs and game crashing started creeping in some time after. If the mobo sensors are to be believed, Gigabyte boards can tend to overvolt DRAM slightly regardless of what you enter, so maybe the answer to achieving 16-18 lies in 1.45-1.5V, and maybe the fluctuating overvoltage was what kept mine from crashing immediately. Not comfortable with doing that on DJR, though.

@ecopsorn I had this confused with another thread where the ICs in question were Hynix AFR. Since yours is B-die, just shitty B-die, if you can achieve complete stability at JEDEC or some other lower than XMP speeds, you can experiment with DRAM Calc to see if optimized timings work at higher freqs while pumping a little more voltage. B-die scales and tolerates more voltage than other comparable ICs, but you will need to keep it cool, both because voltage creates more heat and B-die is slightly more sensitive to heat (with respect to stability). 1.4-1.45V should not be an issue, provided you can keep it cool. But knowing the quality of B-die that ends up in Vengeance SKUs, it may not do the trick.

That said, I would just get a different, higher-end kit as mentioned before by a number of people. 3200/14 can be a little expensive, given pretty much only good B-die can meet that standard, but 3600/16-18-18 and 3600/16-19-19 with either Rev.E, CJR, or DJR is quite affordable these days.


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## basco (May 9, 2020)

this jedec raw card designer i think is forgettable. if ya mean that lost swede
my samsung b-die tells me hynix.


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## moproblems99 (May 9, 2020)

@tabascosauz , he could have Samsung A-Die like in my OLOy.  It has similar timings to CJR.  I haven't yet paired it with my 3900x so I don't know how it does.


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## ecopsorn (May 9, 2020)

@everyone
The amount of useful information in your responses is mindblowing. Why the f* didn't I come to this forum before I bought the parts, could have saved me some brain cells.
I'm gonna quote it all. The next 6-8h starting from now, I'm gonna try everything to follow your suggestions.
If everybody suggests I should get better ram, so be it. For the time being, I'm trying to do what I can with the vengeance suckers. I already thought I won the lottery with B-Die, but apparently it's still crap. I could run with 3200 timings of around 14-15-15 which I also thought is pretty good. Results however were still bad, even worse than with higher timings... The least luck I have with tweaking tRFC. Every time i punch in a number there that is suggested by DRAM calc 1.7.0, system won't POST.



tabascosauz said:


> Turn off PBO.
> 
> 83ns is crazy latency at 3200/16. My D-die 3200/16-16-16 is 72ns. No single chiplet Matisse CPU should suffer that kind of latency penalty while 1:1.
> 
> ...


@tabascosauz

I did try to turn off PBO completely, it didn't change the boot speed and cinebench had also bad stats. AI Suite 3 showed me a clock speed of constant 4.1 when PBO was turned off. 
By "long memory training attempts" you mean, I punched in too many different settings? If so, did that hurt my ram? I have tried at least 60-100 different timings, voltages, frequencies.
About BIOS, I googled 1.0.0.4 AGESA I never heared it before. It seems that my up to date bios 1408 has it covered. Asus introduced it about 4 BIOS versions earlier.
About Corsair, to be honest I was pretty stupid how I did my build: 1st I got it all shiny with fans, RGB all over, 2nd I tried to make the PC quite, had to replace GPU and all case fans and CPU cooler, and now at the end 3rd I'm bothering about performance. I could hit myself for it because I won't be able to return parts anymore except for warranty. Still at this point I don't even care anymore if I have to buy more components lol, I just sell the ones that seem to suck a bit cheaper.



xman2007 said:


> Latency is about right for 3200 16.19.19.36.75, you could try and shoot for 3200 cl 14/16/16/36/60 or even 3400/3600 with the same main timings as you have now as I find higher clocks with slightly higher  timings perform better than lower clocks and tighter timings. Also check your trfc as when left to auto it can sometimes be in the 550-600 area which is way too high and does affect latency and bandwidth, I have mine manually set to 400. You will likely want to change the default vram voltage from 1.35 to 1.45 to acheive these with stability, I have also increased my SOC voltage to 1.1375 (AMD recommends 1.15v as max safe) though I have a Ryzen+ and not a Ryzen 2 chip so I'm not sure how the SOC/IMC voltages differ between these 2.
> 
> Also Zen 2 performs better when you are running inifinity fabric and ram as close to 1800/1900 as you can, there is a performance penalty the lower you have the IF set, at the minute you are running it at 1600 1:1 (RAM 3200=1600 bus clock x2) so if you can get to 3600 that will give you not only a boost in RAM performance but also CPU and likely that's where you're losing performance in cinebench r20


@xman2007 

I did try your suggestions already actually, but gonna reproduce them again today and report back. I did notice that tRFC is in the 500 range when not entered manually, but often if I do enter a value, system won't POST. Gonna try again with 400 which should definitely work.
I did try to set the voltage to 1.45 once, but never went above 1.1 for SOC. Will try and report back.
I didn't know that 1800 IF is the desired value, hell I would have bought 3600 rams in the first place, but nobodyin the other forums thought that my choice of ram was bad...
I couldn't get a post yet with 3600, so I will try again with very loose primary timings and report back



basco said:


> he should be getting around 4950 points multi and 500 single in cine20
> did ya try without PBO ?
> does 48° in bios seem high for a noctua d15 ?
> could ya look at your temp during load plz ?


@basco 

Did try without PBO, get even worse cinebench results
I can run the noctua only with 1 fan because the 2nd optional fan doesn't fit because the corsair vengeance ram are too tall. Another reason to get rid of the corsair even though I do like the RGB a lot. Do you know if the G.skillz ones would fit with a 2nd fan? I'm running the Corsair Crystal 570X RGB case. The second fan would block all 4 ram slots anyway, so I wouldn't see any RGB anyway.
I have to admit I did have a lot of troubles getting that cooler in place. Somehow I really struggled getting those screw holes aligned. It might be that thermal paste is not aligned in a best way, but I did the one dot in the middle strategy.
About temps. One reason that I bought the noctua after trying the prism first was the temps. It got more quite which is good, but the idle temp of the CPU is at 56°C acc. to Ryzen Master and in AI Suite 3 it jumps from 47°C to 56°C constantly, don't know that's up with that. I thought when PBO is disabled, temp should also be steady. The different temp readings confuse me.
Running cinebench 20, the CPU is steady at 80°C - which I think is really high and probably this is also a probably why I score so low.
For the heck of it, I tried to run cinebench with 100% case fan speeds. This cools the CPU down 2°C so 78°C under load. The score was identical 4216 currently LOL
To have this also covered: I have 6 case fans in a positive pressure setup. The 3 in the front push the air in (around 600rpm when idle and the 2 on top and 1 on rear pull the air out with 30rpm higher so, ca. 630rpm



TheLostSwede said:


> With regards to the boot times, did you install Windows 10 using GPT or MBR? You lose a lot of SSD performance if it's not GPT.
> This could be part of the reason for the slow boot times.
> 
> This is from a loaner and not my regular machine.
> ...


@TheLostSwede 

To be honest, I'm pretty sure I installed it on MBR. I'm new to M.2 and didn't know I had to pay attention to it. However, it seems that I can't check it in windows? my window is blank here. How can I be sure?
 


Never heard of CSM but I will try to find it and disable it
About the PBO and OC. I seem not to get it. When I completely disable PBO, isn't the CPU than supposed to run at the 3.9GHz it's supposed to without manual OC? I have currently disabled PBO and AI Suite 3 shows 4275MHz
I did check the dimm slots. They are correctly in A2 and B2
About DOCP/XMP, here I'm also at a loss. If I disable it how you suggested, my ram runs at like 2133 MHz, than all is worse. what am I missing?
DRAM calc - oh yes, I have tried about 12 different settings from dram calc across all possible frequencies, FAST and SAFE preset, etc. None of them works when I punch in all numbers. I only get it to work when I tweak only a few numbers (obviously the primary ones up to tRC and sometimes tRFC and procODT including the voltage playing around with DRAM voltage and SOC
M.2 slot - need to check - will report back, here is a benchmark (I didn't check whether this is supposed to be good or bad)



Here are some temp stats when I run cinebench - it looks baaaaad:






John Naylor said:


> 2.   My son has almost the exact same build  but at the last minute before ordering he switched from your board to an MSI gaming board.  However .. just asked my son and he boots to desktop in 23 seconds ... no password so no login screen and lotta stuff happens after that so id guess about 15-16 seconds to login screen.
> 
> 3.  These days with Muskin bowing out pretty much since DDR4 dropped, it's harder to pick RAM with confidence.  I addition, RAM you  see when new models drop is noit the same RAM you will see 6 months later as all manufacturers switch to cheaper modules after the reviews are out.  The Vengeance pros are popular because of the color and RGB options.  We mostly build hi end Architecture / Engineering / Surveyor AutoCAD and Gaming Systems with a  few Video / Photo Editing boxes now and then.  As such, those users who check the performance charts  fr those applications are usually going with 9900K over 3900x.
> 
> As to your problem ... are you seeing anything in the Wndows StartUp or System logs ?  Seen anything unusual in an F8 boot ?


@John Naylor 

Are you suggesting that my motherboard sucks or may be faulty? If I'd really know that the MOBO is the reason, I'd replace it in a heartbeat, but the MOBO is probably the one part in my rig I spent the most research time and watched countless reviews that all praise the board.
Would you than say it is currently a bad time to buy ram? well if I have to replace it, I got not choice anyway, I'd want the rams replaced asap
I don't see anything at startup to be honest. Just the Rog Strix logo and than black screen for about 12 seconds and than the login screen appears lol. I'm running 3 monitors, but I doubt it has anything to do with it. Never tried an F8 boot with this rig, will try and report back



moproblems99 said:


> Shouldn't the soc be at 1.1v? 1.025 seems low.  Could be why your ram may be having issues.  If you have cjr, you are not likely getting less than 16-19-16-36.  Mine won't boot 16-18-anything. It does do factory timings at 3800 though.


@moproblems99 

I did let it at 1.1 for a while as well and tested several timings, not better but I will try again



TheLostSwede said:


> ICs





tabascosauz said:


> @moproblems99 @TheLostSwede yeah, CJR and DJR really don't like going below 16-19. I did have 16-18-18 on DJR for some time and believed it stable at first, but the BSODs and game crashing started creeping in some time after. If the mobo sensors are to be believed, Gigabyte boards can tend to overvolt DRAM slightly regardless of what you enter, so maybe the answer to achieving 16-18 lies in 1.45-1.5V, and maybe the fluctuating overvoltage was what kept mine from crashing immediately. Not comfortable with doing that on DJR, though.
> 
> @ecopsorn I had this confused with another thread where the ICs in question were Hynix AFR. Since yours is B-die, just shitty B-die, if you can achieve complete stability at JEDEC or some other lower than XMP speeds, you can experiment with DRAM Calc to see if optimized timings work at higher freqs while pumping a little more voltage. B-die scales and tolerates more voltage than other comparable ICs, but you will need to keep it cool, both because voltage creates more heat and B-die is slightly more sensitive to heat (with respect to stability). 1.4-1.45V should not be an issue, provided you can keep it cool. But knowing the quality of B-die that ends up in Vengeance SKUs, it may not do the trick.
> 
> That said, I would just get a different, higher-end kit as mentioned before by a number of people. 3200/14 can be a little expensive, given pretty much only good B-die can meet that standard, but 3600/16-18-18 and 3600/16-19-19 with either Rev.E, CJR, or DJR is quite affordable these days.



I will try to reach 3600 now with loose timings, but it looks like that I'm gonna have to get new ram.
Here is a full taiphoon readout:





One more thing to everyone. If we are talking benchmarks, my GPU also seems to underperform as hell.
I get these scores in Heaven 4:
    Stock settings: Score: 1969 / FPS: 78.2
    +111PL, +125core, +825memory: Score: 2223 / FPS 88.3
according to this review, they are talking about 150-160fps, wtf.
GPU temp is around 72°C when the OC is applied and under full benchmark load.


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## thesmokingman (May 9, 2020)

The weak link in your build is that ram. Corsair ram sucks on Zen 2 general. I use the same board btw, love it. I run my cpu stock, docp enabled, have pbo disabled, cpu voltage on auto. You don't have to touch the SOC or any other voltages. Running dram calc on that ram is not gonna be fun. 

You clearly are not hitting the stock performance that you should. What bios are you on?


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## Decryptor009 (May 9, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Turn off PBO. I'm not a fan of BZ's "how to properly optimize Matisse on x manufacturer's boards" because every chip and every board is different. Your chip may like PBO, it may only like certain settings in PBO, or it may despise PBO. There's no guarantee. All these N7 process chips that aren't 3950Xs are wildcards. My 3700X literally runs more efficient in every measure without PBO even though it "clocks" lower; it still gets 100% the performance of PBO in CB R20. I get about 4958-4980 in CB R20 with clocks around 41-41.5x. A 3800X should easily be able to attain those clocks at stock settings. CB is not heavily affected by memory.
> 
> 83ns is crazy latency at 3200/16. My D-die 3200/16-16-16 is 72ns. No single chiplet Matisse CPU should suffer that kind of latency penalty while 1:1.
> 
> ...


His latency is higher than my non overclockable 3000mhz LPX memory.


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## thesmokingman (May 9, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> His latency is higher than my non overclockable 3000mhz LPX memory.



There's actually minor perf gains going from 80ns to 65ns, so that is something to worry after fixing the everything else. Also, as I wrote, it will be a pita working with that Corsair ram.


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## tabascosauz (May 9, 2020)

@moproblems99 Thaiphoon shows B-die for his Vengeance RGB. I'm an idiot too for reading the Micron tag at first, I don't even think Rev.B is a thing.

@ecopsorn have you ever updated the BIOS? Or is it still on the revision that it had when you bought the board? I would update to the latest available BIOS then see if that fixes your temps, because they're too damn high for a 3800X under a NH-D15. Way, way too high. There's either something wrong with the cooler mounting, the case has 0 airflow, or it could be down to outdated boosting behaviour thanks to the outdated BIOS.

Stock SoC on my 3700X is about 1.08V I think. I've not needed to run it any higher to sustain D-die 3200/16-16-16 or DJR 3600/16-19-20. 1.03V is on the low side for SoC, not sure why the default SoC is so low. 1.1V on the other hand is as high as you should ever go on Matisse, and the DRAM voltage can actually be higher than what you set it on some boards. Over the SVI2 bus which should be most accurate for Vcore and SoC, it regularly fluctuates up to 1.095V or so on a 1.08V setting.

Memory training is something the board does every time at boot, before it POSTs. I'm not ready to claim any sort of concrete correlations here but JEDEC (stock non-XMP speeds), unstable freq/timings, or bad quality sticks can increase that delay as the system tries again and again to train.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 9, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> One more thing to everyone. If we are talking benchmarks, my GPU also seems to underperform as hell.



I wouldn't worry about the GPU until you get the 'core' working correctly.  Without a solid core, the rest of the system will perform like shit.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 9, 2020)

@ecopsorn you need to hit the populate button   

CSM is in the boot options.

No, PBO is an overclocking thing. The CPU should still boost just fine.
3.9GHz is the lowest working clock speed of the CPU when it's being utilised at a high degree, but it if it's only loaded a bit, the frequency can be lower. The boost clock is "up to" 4.5GHz, but it can apparently go a bit higher.

If you disable XMP, you need to manually set the memory to 3200MHz and 1.35V, as well as enter some of the timings in advanced memory settings or something similar. What XMP does, is that it reads an EEPROM chip that has a set of pre-programmed parameters in it and then the UEFI takes these settings as the settings for the RAM. However, XMP is an Intel standard and the settings don't always work well with AMD CPUs. Hence why I wouldn't used it.

If you have XMP on, it might override the DRAM calculator, so turn it off before you enter those settings. As I said, no need to punch in all the numbers, that's for extreme tuning and in general is a waste of time.

SSD performance is weird as... Sequential speeds are fine, but your random IOPS are terrible. You should be hitting 600k read IOPS, so you're at about 1/5th of that, which helps at least in part, explain the slow boot speeds.

Your idle temps are quite high indeed, load temps are acceptable, you have an air cooler after all and these CPUs can go up to 95C.
That said, it's a giant air cooler and I expected lower temps. I would check that the cooler is installed properly.

The RAM is using Samsung B-dies for sure, so it should work, but apparently not all that great.



tabascosauz said:


> @moproblems99 Thaiphoon shows B-die for his Vengeance RGB. I'm an idiot too for reading the Micron tag at first, I don't even think Rev.B is a thing.


I was looking at the same thing


----------



## ecopsorn (May 9, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn have you ever updated the BIOS? Or is it still on the revision that it had when you bought the board? I would update to the latest available BIOS then see if that fixes your temps, because they're too damn high for a 3800X under a NH-D15. Way, way too high. There's either something wrong with the cooler mounting, the case has 0 airflow, or it could be down to outdated boosting behaviour thanks to the outdated BIOS.
> 
> Stock SoC on my 3700X is about 1.08V I think. I've not needed to run it any higher to sustain D-die 3200/16-16-16 or DJR 3600/16-19-20. 1.03V is on the low side for SoC, not sure why the default SoC is so low. 1.1V on the other hand is as high as you should ever go on Matisse, and the DRAM voltage can actually be higher than what you set it on some boards. Over the SVI2 bus which should be most accurate for Vcore and SoC, it regularly fluctuates up to 1.095V or so on a 1.08V setting.
> 
> Memory training is something the board does every time at boot, before it POSTs. I'm not ready to claim any sort of concrete correlations here but JEDEC (stock non-XMP speeds), unstable freq/timings, or bad quality sticks can increase that delay as the system tries again and again to train.


@tabascosauz 

I already wrote to another user that I'm currently running the latest Asus Bios 1408 for my board. I did the first Bios update immediately after I put it all together for the first time, the bios was 1408 than. I did have the same temp. issues with 1407 as I have with 1408.
I do have a good airflow I think. of course I could rearrange the fans if that would help, as I wrote, I currently have 3 push and 3 pull. The pull ones have 30rpm more than the push ones. But even at 100% case fan speed, the CPU only gets 2°C cooler and still benches like shit



moproblems99 said:


> I wouldn't worry about the GPU until you get the 'core' working correctly.  Without a solid core, the rest of the system will perform like shit.


haha thanks, will keep that in mind



TheLostSwede said:


> @ecopsorn you need to hit the populate button
> 
> CSM is in the boot options.
> 
> ...



@TheLostSwede 

What populate button, where? 
Hmm, really don't see that CSM under boot options, just smth about secure boot. I will come back with a screenshot
Ok, that XMP stuff would explain why DRAM calc values don't work for me. - going back to bios and try some more
Oh man, so if my SSD performance also sucks than wtf, can't exchange every single part of my build


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 9, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @TheLostSwede
> 
> What populate button, where?
> Hmm, really don't see that CSM under boot options, just smth about secure boot. I will come back with a screenshot
> ...


The one at the bottom left...






Not familiar with your UEFI, so I can't say for the CSM option, but it's somewhere around the drive options.

As I said, if you're MBR instead of GPT, that can affect the SSD performance negatively. 
I'm sure the SSD is fine, as the sequential performance is where it's supposed to be, something else is going on with regards to the random performance. Just out of curiosity, not that it should matter too much, but which slot did you put the SSD in?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 9, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> The one at the bottom left...
> Not familiar with your UEFI, so I can't say for the CSM option, but it's somewhere around the drive options.
> 
> As I said, if you're MBR instead of GPT, that can affect the SSD performance negatively.
> I'm sure the SSD is fine, as the sequential performance is where it's supposed to be, something else is going on with regards to the random performance. Just out of curiosity, not that it should matter too much, but which slot did you put the SSD in?



Oh man, lol yes populated it now and there we go, I did install on GPT, one possible explanation for boot times gone, noooo



I found the CSM option now, it was right there in front of my eyes lol - but guess what, it was already DISABLED  - so SSD also screwed?
I put it in the upper socket (M.2_1):



And your question about bandwith 4x or 2x. I went to the bios settings and it is all on AUTO, except PCIEx16_2 Bandwith is onX8 Mode
I did try to put in 3600/1800 but it doesn't boot no matter what timings I choose.

And @TheLostSwede , do I need the AI Overclock Tuner settings on Auto or Manual instead of DOCP?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 9, 2020)

@ecopsorn Are you just using the NT-H1 that came with the D15? It doesn't sound like case airflow is the culprit here. The thing about idle temperatures on Matisse is that a idle peak of 50-60C is just fine, because of how Zen 2 cores respond quickly to load, but _idling around 50C and never dipping below_ is somewhat concerning on a top of the line air cooler like the D15. I idle around 30-40C and peak to 50C once in a blue moon on just a U9S, a cooler that's only 3/4 the height and just over 1/2 the heatsink mass of the D15.

As for load, the CPU itself starts taking off performance when it starts getting too warm. Given your idle temperatures, it very much feels like the 3800X is holding itself back (ie. load temps would be much higher if Matisse wasn't as smart as it is regarding thermal management), giving you the terrible performance you're seeing. It definitely sounds like there's a contact issue. I'd check the cooler mounting, redo the paste application, and/or check your fan speeds in BIOS.

Secufirm can be a little bit fiddly sometimes with regards to tightening down both of the spring-loaded screws. If you fully tighten one before engaging the other's threads, the other won't want to tighten. Align the cooler, then tighten a little bit at a time until both screws have barely engaged their threads, then tighten them down until they stop, no overtightening.

Honestly, it sounds like you should just try a better kit of RAM. And if you're lucky, the retailer you buy from has a 14-day or 1 month hassle free return window where you can just return it for your money back if you find a way to live with the Vengeance RGB.

Vengeance RGB has a large heatspreader. If I'm not mistaken, it's a bit bigger than all G.skill Trident models.

Have you stepped up the SoC voltage yet to around 1.08-1.09V to see if that does the trick?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 9, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Oh man, lol yes populated it now and there we go, I did install on GPT, one possible explanation for boot times gone, noooo
> View attachment 154524
> I found the CSM option now, it was right there in front of my eyes lol - but guess what, it was already DISABLED  - so SSD also screwed?
> I put it in the upper socket (M.2_1):
> ...


Well, then I'm out of suggestions, but there's something odd going on with the SSD. Maybe try Crystal Disk Mark for laugh? It's a storage benchmark.
Everything else seems correct.

As I said, I'm not familiar with your board, but I wouldn't use any AI anything in the UEFI.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 9, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn Are you just using the NT-H1 that came with the D15? It doesn't sound like case airflow is the culprit here. The thing about idle temperatures on Matisse is that a idle peak of 50-60C is just fine, because of how Zen 2 cores respond quickly to load, but _idling around 50C and never dipping below_ is somewhat concerning on a top of the line air cooler like the D15. I idle around 30-40C and peak to 50C once in a blue moon on just a U9S, a cooler that's only 3/4 the height and just over 1/2 the heatsink mass of the D15.
> 
> As for load, the CPU itself starts taking off performance when it starts getting too warm. Given your idle temperatures, it very much feels like the 3800X is holding itself back (ie. load temps would be much higher if Matisse wasn't as smart as it is regarding thermal management), giving you the terrible performance you're seeing. It definitely sounds like there's a contact issue. I'd check the cooler mounting, redo the paste application, and/or check your fan speeds in BIOS.
> 
> ...



I did tighten them evenly of course, but I had so much trouble that the screws even found the grip and moved the cooler around slightly, that was definitely not ideal. I will shutdown my computer after this post and remove the cooler and reapply with new paste and hopefully better luck with the screws
About the ram, nah I'm out of luck there, best they do is take it back and I stuck with 90% of the costs, or otherwise I just sell it.
While I'm removing the cooler, I'm gonna measure exactly how tall the ram blocks can be so I can install both fans on my noctua. Hopefully I can end up with a good g.skill than


----------



## Athlonite (May 9, 2020)

xman2007 said:


> 3200 16.19.19.36.75


 that tRC of 75 is way to high set it to 54 I had the same issue with my Asus Strixx x470F Gaming where it would set the tRC to nearly double the SPD setting for no apparent reason even with DOCP once I figured out WTH was going on and set it manually it stopped taking so long to boot


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (May 9, 2020)

Did you install all the drivers for your board?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 9, 2020)

jmcslob said:


> Did you install all the drivers for your board?


yes, the crate thingy, all drivers seam up to date including chipset

Guys, cooler is off. Can u tell from these pics whether the paste was applied shitty? Spreads seems even but not really covering all of the surface. Applying more?

as for ram, I can only use a 32mm height one if I want to use the second noctua fan. I guess no good g.skill trident offers that, right? So it is the decision between 2fans and new 32mm rams or 1 fan and g.skills

Now as I have the cooler off I’m thinking off putting. The SSD in the second slot that is not directly underneath the GPU. Would that make sense or would I destroy the whole windows installation?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 9, 2020)

@ecopsorn is this the D15 chromax? Running it with 1 fan is literally what a D15S is, and thats on par with the U12A in performance. Read: all far better than what you are currently experiencing.

Just clean it all off, use a rice grain in the middle, and take care not to shift the cooler around a hundred times while you get it tightened down. It should "sit" into place on the brackets if you've set those up properly, then get to work tightening both screws evenly.

Not sure why you're using the Armory Crate gimmick for anything at all. This isn't a laptop needing special drivers from the manufacturer. Just go to AMD's website and get the latest chipset drivers for X570.

Putting it in the second M.2 slot may give you lower temperatures, but all of them are well heatsinked, and you're not focusing on getting done what matters. Have you checked your SOC voltage yet?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 9, 2020)

Haha you’re right, one thing at a time. Ok getting the cooler in again and checking temps and chipset drivers soon.
Yes SOC I always tested between 1 and 1.1

Back to windows. Cooler re-installed. Same bad temps.
I did install the latest chipset driver from AMDs website. Crate showed strange version numbers but now I am sure I have the latest.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Haha you’re right, one thing at a time. Ok getting the cooler in again and checking temps and chipset drivers soon.
> Yes SOC I always tested between 1 and 1.1
> 
> Back to windows. Cooler re-installed. Same bad temps.
> I did install the latest chipset driver from AMDs website. Crate showed strange version numbers but now I am sure I have the latest.



No, make sure your SoC is up closer to 1.1, if not that. I don't know what your board's Auto setting specifies for SoC, mine is automatically 1.1. Also, what are your Vcore settings, what does CPU Vcore look like at idle, and what is the highest SVI2 TFN Vcore reading in HWInfo while you are running Cinebench?

At this point I can't think of much else that's up on the temperatures front aside from reminding you to check that the lone NF-A15 fan on the D15 is plugged in and actually spinning properly. Pretty much everyone's made that mistake once before.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> No, make sure your SoC is up closer to 1.1, if not that. I don't know what your board's Auto setting specifies for SoC, mine is automatically 1.1. Also, what are your Vcore settings, what does CPU Vcore look like at idle, and what is the highest SVI2 TFN Vcore reading in HWInfo while you are running Cinebench?
> 
> At this point I can't think of much else that's up on the temperatures front aside from reminding you to check that the lone NF-A15 fan on the D15 is plugged in and actually spinning properly. Pretty much everyone's made that mistake once before.



SVI2 TFN is constant at 0.987 V at idle AND during cinebench, is that how it is supposed to be?
My board sets SoC to 1.0 but I'm gonna put it back to 1.1 and leave it there.
These are my idle values:




I do have a small success to report. In cinebench I do have only 77°C instead of 80°C now after the cooler re-install. At least something. At idle though, it is stilll silly jumping from 52° to 61°C back and forth.
About the fan, it is correctly installed, no low noise crap in between, I even checked the direction of ALL fans and it all is correct, all are spinning well.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

@ecopsorn No, that SoC is way low. Get it up to at least 1.08V. It seems that LLC for SoC on your board is on Auto setting and it'll droop a bit, so you should be good with 1.1V.

Whenever you need to monitor Vcore or SoC, look to SVI2 TFN. It's what the CPU is reporting. The board's reported values can be all over the place.

Vcore SVI2 range seems about right, idle temps just seem somewhat on the high side, but that may also be a 8-core 105W part thing.

I'm intrigued by this idle behaviour, it was fixed for most of us something like 2 AGESA revisions ago and 3 chipset firmware updates ago. What kind of background processes do you have running on your computer?


----------



## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

@tabascosauz
and yet i had two gskill kits (one even samsung B) that wont perform any better than stock xmp (3600-18/22/22/2@1.35) even with more v,
but my corsair veng pro (3600-18/22/22/42@1.35), with micron chips, does 3600-16/19/19/36/1t@1.32v.
the complete opposite of "i dont recommend corsair..." that some ppl post in forums, instead of helping (not you tho).

@ecopsorn
turn off any oc, you wanna get the machine to run properly before adding nitrous  
usually zen2 does better with PBO of (still uses PB), and see if you can turn off docp/xmp and just do the main timings/volt manually (e.g. numbers from sticker/SPD).
you could try stock settings on ram and just crank up to 3600 (to match max IF of 1800mhz) and use something like memtest to verify
("impossible" settings usually cause errors within min, something showing up on test 5/6/7 can most of the time fixed with a bit more voltage/more moderate settings)

turn off the memory learning/training in bios AFTER you found what the ram can run, should help with boot time.


edit since i forgot ram speed


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn No, that SoC is way low. Get it up to at least 1.08V. It seems that LLC for SoC on your board is on Auto setting and it'll droop a bit, so you should be good with 1.1V.
> 
> Whenever you need to monitor Vcore or SoC, look to SVI2 TFN. It's what the CPU is reporting. The board's reported values can be all over the place.
> 
> ...


I don't have any special background programs running where I have the feeling it could influence temp. I do have wallpaper engine on sometimes, but that doesn't seem to influence idle temps.
The only other thing I could imagine is Display Fusion, I have 3 monitors running. But even there, I tried all of it with only 1 monitor plugged in already.

These are my values now:
3200/1600 - DRAM 1.45V, SoC 1.1V, 16-18-18-18-36-54 having XMP on again.. The system will not post as soon as I type a value in tRFC. Even I high one such as 400. HWinfo therefore shows me 560 Trfc....



Fry178 said:


> @tabascosauz
> and yet i had two gskill kits (one even samsung B) that wont perform any better than stock xmp (18/22/22/2@1.35) even with more v,
> but my corsair veng pro (18/22/22/42@1.35), with micron chips, does 16/19/19/36/1t@1.32v.
> the complete opposite of "i dont recommend corsair..." that some ppl post in forums, instead of helping (not you tho).
> ...



Hey there, I did try that but not having XMP on and setting it to Auto and typing in the most important values won't let me POST, seriously that's so screwed. I keep getting error 22 on my board after doing the most basic timing settings while XMP is off and I have to reset CMOS....

PBO is disabled now. I wish I could reach 3600, but no matter if XMP on or off and whatnot, I cannot reach 3600 and boot windows, no chance, tried for hours in all f* combinations.


what do you mean by "turn off the memory learning/training? how can it be turned off?


*So for everybody, summary of today*

I have to sign off and 3a.m after testing for 7h without a break. I appreciate this great support, so many people are trying to help!
It really seems that my ram are extreme trash. I wonder if I should send it in for a warranty claim lol? what do you think?
In any way, I will follow the advice of all of you and will get some G.Skillz. When I have a clear mind, I will post some available ram tomorrow so you can help me to decide which one I shall buy. Tips are already plenty in the forum, so I'm trying to find those blocks.
And as a question to you all - could it really be that with proper rams, all my issues get resolved lol? I just have the feeling that I will end up switching the board as well..... after all, GPU not benching how it should, SSD not benching how it should, ridiculous temps on CPU and so on.
Thanks everybody and good night


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @tabascosauz
> and yet i had two gskill kits (one even samsung B) that wont perform any better than stock xmp (18/22/22/2@1.35) even with more v,
> but my corsair veng pro (18/22/22/42@1.35), with micron chips, does 16/19/19/36/1t@1.32v.
> the complete opposite of "i dont recommend corsair..." that some ppl post in forums, instead of helping (not you tho).



To be fair, G.skill's lower end kits that are 3200/16 or 3600/18 are an absolute shit show and no better than any other manufacturer because of the IC lottery that they all play at those speeds. But I've found just one (1) Corsair kit that is decent - an LPX at 3600/14 - which stands out from the other 50 garbage LPX/RGB kits; it costs $289 for a 16GB kit. Corsair may have the price advantage because LPX is consistently so affordable, but there's this vast empty gulf in their product stack between the trash and the one or two ultra high-end and insanely priced B-die Dominators. At least with G.skill's new wave of Trident/Neo/RGB, you can choose to pay a little bit more than LPX price for a 3600/16, even if the secondary timings aren't as tight because it uses CJR/DJR or Rev.E; you don't have to shell out for a 4400 Royal kit to get some semblance of quality.

And I should know full well that G.skill is no angel. My previous Trident Z kit, now sitting as a backup, had 4Gb D-die, of all the ICs they could have used.

But the kit _that _replaced was a similar 3200/16 Corsair LPX kit that wouldn't even _POST_ at _JEDEC speeds_, except for one stick; said stick on its own couldn't pass memtest86, let alone testing in-OS.

@ecopsorn Much respect for putting in the troubleshooting effort. I don't think you'll find Corsair to be much help; in their defense, XMP 2.0 is an Intel standard, and unless you buy one of their certified Ryzen-compatible kits, they haven't really done anything "wrong", per se. Do check in when you're contemplating what to buy, and although info on the forum isn't exactly well-organized, there's a lot of discussion here about what kits are good and what kits aren't.

There was another thread from some time ago about trying to make 3200/16 poor quality B-die Vengeance RGB work, and I think it did work out in the end. But having put up to 1.45V into them and not seeing much of an improvement, I'm not sure this kit is worth your time.


----------



## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

@ecopsorn
did you also increase ram v to 1.35 before reboot?

@tabascosauz
its shitty for C to have that large gap, most of the time getting me to buy the regular veng, as it wasnt always for me,
or because i was running intel (timings less relevant, mainly clocks).

Yeah, feel you there. couldn't even get the b-die gskill to post on my aorus ultra,
only after cranking up stock v to 1.35 would it even decide to post.
funny part, the gskill kits were both on the board list, the corsair not 

main reason why i buy most components at MC or amazon,return within 30 days ("..it just stopped working.." lol)
and i can get something different.


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2020)

Your memory speed does not explain your extremely low CineBench 20 results.

1. Please try to load BIOS defaults, save them and do not change anything afterwards. Do not even enable XMPP/DCCP or anything - just pure defaults. You may disable additional controllers (e.g. Firewire) in BIOS which you're sure you'll never use.
2. Please then try to boot Windows in safe mode to eliminate any backgrounds tasks - make sure task manager reports 0% CPU load after you booted this way.
3. Then try running CM20 again and report your results.

Once you've done the above please load an XMPP profile (enable DCCP) and reboot into safe mode once again. Run CB20 and report your results again.

From your HWiNFO screen your system looks 100% fine - the CPU is using up to 120W of power which is line with a slightly overclocked Ryzen 7 3800X.

Your CPU temperatures look a little bit too high to my liking but maybe they are OK. I have a pretty cheap air cooling and in BIOS my 3700X CPU is 10C colder than yours.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> At least with G.skill's new wave of Trident/Neo/RGB, you can choose to pay a little bit more than LPX price for a 3600/16, even if the secondary timings aren't as tight because it uses CJR/DJR or Rev.E; you don't have to shell out for a 4400 Royal kit to get some semblance of quality.



My Neo 3600 c16 was $180. Edit: for 2 x 16gb.




tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn Much respect for putting in the troubleshooting effort. I don't think you'll find Corsair to be much help; in their defense, XMP 2.0 is an Intel standard, and unless you buy one of their certified Ryzen-compatible kits, they haven't really done anything "wrong", per se. Do check in when you're contemplating what to buy, and although info on the forum isn't exactly well-organized, there's a lot of discussion here about what kits are good and what kits aren't.



In my opinion, don't worry about b die and get an affordable kit that just works.  I am not saying bottom tier junk but something like the Neos.  The difference between 3600 16 19 19 38 and 3600 16 16 16 32 ain't THAT much.

After I say that, I would go back and spend the extra $40 it was back then and get the better specs.  Not sure what the difference is now but much more than that just doesn't seem worth it.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

Hey guys I’m back. I’m gonna look for ram now. I live in Switzerland so I gotta see what’s available here.
So if you were in my shoes, the most guys wrote 3600 cl16 is what I should look for, right?

some more bullets:

Would u still go 2x16? I read 4x8 has lower latency?
I think 32gb is ok for me - doing gaming and gopro video editing. Shall I still look for 32?
G.skill neo or royal are both fine to consider?
What would be the best ram for me, speed, frequency, number of blocks if money is no object?


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Hey guys I’m back. I’m gonna look for ram now. I live in Switzerland so I gotta see what’s available here.
> So if you were in my shoes, the most guys wrote 3600 cl16 is what I should look for, right?
> 
> some more bullets:
> ...



Looking at the memory QVL for your motherboard it seems you can't go wrong with any G.Skill 2x16GB 3600mhz kit, just go for the G.skill Neo 2x16GB 3600mhz cas 16 kit as it is the best for Ryzen 2 atm.
If you want 4 Dimms of either 8GB or 16GB you have to check with the memory QVL first.
TBH though I never liked Asus motherboard, the bioses are too complicated for beginners, at the request of my friend I had to build 2 systems with Asus Z97 and Z390 and the bioses were confusing AF...If you choose motherboard based on VRM thermal performance then it is a little off the mark....


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

This is what I have, works for me, but YMMV. I run my four 8Gb modules at 16-19-16-19-36 as pointed out elsewhere. I bought two different kits at two different times, but I guess I was just lucky according to some people here...








						Patriot Viper Steel DIMM Kit 16GB, DDR4-3600, CL17-19-19-39 ab € 59,84 (2023) | Preisvergleich Geizhals EU
					

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Not saying this is the ultimate RAM for Ryzen 3000, it's Hynix CJR, but it's affordable and in my case and a few others, works well, as long as you don't use the XMP settings.

Might be worth giving the latest DRAM calculator a spin before you throw out what you have.








						DRAM Calculator for Ryzen (v1.7.3) Download
					

DRAM Calculator for Ryzen helps with overclocking your memory on the AMD Ryzen platform.   It suggests stable memory timing sets optimized for your m




					www.techpowerup.com
				






nguyen said:


> Looking at the memory QVL for your motherboard it seems you can't go wrong with any G.Skill 2x16GB 3600mhz kit, just go for the G.skill Neo 2x16GB 3600mhz cas 16 kit as it is the best for Ryzen 2 atm.
> If you want 4 Dimms of either 8GB or 16GB you have to check with the memory QVL first.
> TBH though I never liked Asus motherboard, the bioses are too complicated for beginners, at the request of my friend I had to build 2 systems with Asus Z97 and Z390 and the bioses were confusing AF...If you choose motherboard based on VRM thermal performance then it is a little off the mark....


QVL's are once again BS. They only contain RAM that the board makers have on hand. So if a memory manufacturer haven't given them their modules to test, they won't be on the QVL. Sure, it's a place to start, but my old Corsair RAM was on AMD's QVL, same revision and everything, yet, it never worked at its rated speed, so yeah, useless QVL.

If you can't figure out the UEFI, then maybe you're not qualified to build systems for others..?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

Hey guys - I put 3 variations for comparison:
According to the manufacturer number, g.skill website shows this for the royal ones 16-16-16-36. The currency is CHF which is currently about the same as US$.
The 2x16GB 3600 are CL16-19-19-39.
All of them are on the QVL if that matters


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Hey guys - I put 3 variations for comparison:
> According to the manufacturer number, g.skill website shows this for the royal ones 16-16-16-36. The currency is CHF which is currently about the same as US$.
> The 2x16GB 3600 are CL16-19-19-39.
> All of them are on the QVL if that matters
> ...


Personally, I think you're wasting money on diminishing returns here. That said, these are supposed to be good modules with Ryzen CPUs. I don't think it really matters what you get, if those are the options you're looking at.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

yeah I surely don't wanna waste money but I'm also not willing to accept a 2800$ build to run like crap.
I've downloaded the latest DRAM calc 1.7.1 and this what it spits out for 3200 with imported taiphoon readout




not much difference to the old version and I'm 100% sure it won't POST like this.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> yeah I surely don't wanna waste money but I'm also not willing to accept a 2800$ build to run like crap.
> I've downloaded the latest DRAM calc 1.7.1 and this what it spits out for 3200 with imported taiphoon readout
> View attachment 154586
> 
> not much difference to the old version and I'm 100% sure it won't POST like this.


Try that, but tCL 16. If that doesn't work, then it would seem your RAM is really a dud.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> This is what I have, works for me, but YMMV. I run my four 8Gb modules at 16-19-16-19-36 as pointed out elsewhere. I bought two different kits at two different times, but I guess I was just lucky according to some people here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A lot of personal attacks here pal, there are a lot of options within the Asus UEFI which are over-complicated, to ignore the package power limits on Intel CPU there are like 2-3 options you must set on the Asus board while on MSI or Gigabyte it's just 1. As the build was for someone else I don't have that much time with it, and I had to read the Overclocking guide on something as simple as bypass power limits was a little embarrassing...

If your Corsair RAM was on the motherboard QVL and it didn't work, that could also attributed to the memory controller on the CPU, which the motherboard manufacturer can't control. There are 2 separate QVL for AMD Matisse and Picasso CPU, not sure you read the correct QVL for you CPU pal, better read the correct QVL next time before you blame something...



ecopsorn said:


> Hey guys - I put 3 variations for comparison:
> According to the manufacturer number, g.skill website shows this for the royal ones 16-16-16-36. The currency is CHF which is currently about the same as US$.
> The 2x16GB 3600 are CL16-19-19-39.
> All of them are on the QVL if that matters



I would pick the G.Skill Trident Z Neo 2x16GB kit myself, if you do some sort of video editing then 32GB is a good place to start.


----------



## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

@ecopsorn
i would still check if you can get some CL18 kits for less (unless budget isn't an issue),
getting the speed up to 3600 (to max out IF clock) is more important than lowering latency.
two sticks would be best (outside quad channel boards), as 4 sticks usually will drop something (clock and/or timings)/might need some more V etc.
also remember with x570 two (DS/DR) modules would perform "better" than using four.

@nguyen
the need to change more/less settings "to do the same"/having problems with different brands using different terms etc for someone messing with power limits/stuff in detail,
or ppl having a hard time to know the difference between xm,p and doc, are ppl that should leave "bios" alone, and is exactly what TLS said, not a problem with brand, but the operator.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> A lot of personal attacks here pal, there are a lot of options within the Asus UEFI which are over-complicated, to ignore the package power limits on the 8700K there are like 2-3 options you must set on the Asus board while on MSI or Gigabyte it's just 1. As someone who is used to Gigabyte and MSI UEFI the terminology used on ASUS boards are also different (D.O.C.P vs XMP)


Personal attacks?  You make statements, as if you're an expert and then come and say you can't configure the UEFI on a board, that somewhat diminishes your previous statements. That's not an attack, that's a fact.
I had no issues whatsoever with my previous Asus X370 board. In fact, I don't ever remember having issues figuring out a UEFI.  Yes, some of the layouts can be bad, but that doesn't prevent them from being used as they should. I guess you haven't looked at the advanced settings on a recent Gigabyte board? In my experience, all the board makers use different terminology and have completely different layouts, in fact, my Z270 board in my NAS, is nothing like my X570 board, yet I have no problem setting up either board.
It doesn't mean I can work any board from memory, but I know how to find the settings I need when I'm sat in front of it.



Fry178 said:


> @ecopsorn
> i would still check if you can get some CL18 kits for less (unless budget isn't an issue),
> getting the speed up to 3600 (to max out IF clock) is more important than lowering latency.
> two sticks would be best (outside quad channel boards), as 4 sticks usually will drop something (clock and/or timings)/might need some more V etc.
> also remember with x570 two (DS/DR) modules would perform "better" than using four.


Please provide some proof for your random statement here.
I was not expecting four modules to work all that well either, but that was based on having used Intel systems in the past.
However, based both on my own experience and the link below, you don't actually lose anything with going four modules on Ryzen 3000, instead, you're likely to gain a smidgen of performance. I was really sceptical when I read this  the first time around, but it turns out that it's true.








						Ryzen Above: Best Memory Settings for AMD's 3000 CPUs, Tested
					

Is Ryzen 3000 optimized for DDR4-3200? What if we want more? We examine everything from frequency to rank count to nail down optimal settings.




					www.tomshardware.com
				



Also, 3600 is hardly maxing out IF clocks, as most people with a 3800X can go to 3733 or 3800MHz 1:1.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Personal attacks?  You make statements, as if you're an expert and then come and say you can't configure the UEFI on a board, that somewhat diminishes your previous statements. That's not an attack, that's a fact.
> I had no issues whatsoever with my previous Asus X370 board. In fact, I don't ever remember having issues figuring out a UEFI.  Yes, some of the layouts can be bad, but that doesn't prevent them from being used as they should. I guess you haven't looked at the advanced settings on a recent Gigabyte board? In my experience, all the board makers use different terminology and have completely different layouts, in fact, my Z270 board in my NAS, is nothing like my X570 board, yet I have no problem setting up either board.
> It doesn't mean I can work any board from memory, but I know how to find the settings I need when I'm sat in front of it.
> 
> ...



You lack the required knowledge to respond properly to the thread here pal, most of X570 motherboard use Daisy Chained for their DIMM while on Intel Z390 it is T-Topology, therefore it is better to run 2 Dimms on X570 and 4 Dimm on Intel Z390...
It's easy to tell the Motherboard OP is using is a Daisy Chain config based on the QVL, which runs better on 2 Dimms. With 2x16GB kit there is also the additional performance of Dual Rank DDR.


----------



## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

@TheLostSwede
True, Ryzen is doing much better than (amd) cpus in the past (with 4 sticks), BUT its not quad channel, so no big read/write gains (vs using 2 sticks).
when i started looking into what parts to get for my zen2 build, and questioned if i wanted 2 or 4 sticks..

reading up on reviews/test, it showed having two 16gb sticks (and both sides of each stick populated as in DS AND DR) was consistently doing better,
than same amount of ram running on 4 sticks.

and "most" is not "everyone", especially since it depends mostly on cpu.
per amd, 1800mhz is official IF for 3xxx, so i go by that.
outside the fact OP is not trying to max out perf, but get what "should be" there already,
so i rather not add another variable for possible problems (above 1800 mhz IF)
before its fixed..


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> You lack the required knowledge to respond properly to the thread here pal, most of X570 motherboard use Daisy Chained for their DIMM while on Intel Z390 it is T-Topology, therefore it is better to run 2 Dimms on X570 and 4 Dimm on Intel Z390...
> It's easy to tell the Motherboard OP is using is a Daisy Chain config based on the QVL, which runs better on 2 Dimms. With 2x16GB kit there is also the additional performance of Dual Rank DDR.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. The board makers offers both types of boards, but they rarely tells you what is what.
Please go read the link I provided.



Fry178 said:


> @TheLostSwede
> True, Ryzen is doing much better than (amd) cpus in the past (with 4 sticks), BUT its not quad channel, so no big read/write gains (vs using 2 sticks).
> when i started looking into what parts to get for my zen2 build, and questioned if i wanted 2 or 4 sticks..
> 
> ...


Obviously it's not quad channel, but for whatever reason, there's still a performance advantage of going with four modules over two. The link I provided is not the only source that points at that. Sure, it's maybe 5% at the most, but it's free performance if you're not planning on upgrading your memory in the future. I wasn't planning on getting more than 16GB of RAM, but as RAM prices dropped, I took a gamble and it paid off. Sure, I see 0.7ns higher latency, but that's hardly an issue.

Care to provide a link that proves that?

Sure, not everyone is hitting 3800MHz, but I would say all 3800X CPUs are capable of 3733MHz 1:1. Keep in mind that these are some of the highest binned consumer CPUs from AMD. We're not talking the 3600 here, but the 3800X.
How do you know he doesn't want to get optimal performance from his/her system? Right now, the issue is to fix whatever weird stuff is going on, but the OP is clearly going for a high-end build. But sure, let's take one step at a time, but at the same time, why not make sure that once the problems are fixed, that there's the option to go one step further?

Here's another article showing that Intel CPUs also gain performance from going from two to four modules. It's not going to help in all scenarios, but it would appear that today's memory controllers have no issues deal with four modules, regardless of the blue or the red team.








						Are More RAM Modules Better for Gaming? 4 x 4GB vs. 2 x 8GB
					

Today we're taking a look at the performance impact having four DDR4 memory modules can have on performance in a dual-channel system, opposed to just two modules....




					www.techspot.com


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @nguyen
> the need to change more/less settings "to do the same"/having problems with different brands using different terms etc for someone messing with power limits/stuff in detail,
> or ppl having a hard time to know the difference between xm,p and doc, are ppl that should leave "bios" alone, and is exactly what TLS said, not a problem with brand, but the operator.



Sadly speaking I was building systems that are way more complicated than tinkering with Bios in a short time, something like hard-tube custom water cooling rig in less than a day, so yeah had to wade through a overclocking guide on something so simple was a pain I didn't want to deal with.



TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but that's nonsense. The board makers offers both types of boards, but they rarely tells you what is what.
> Please go read the link I provided.
> 
> 
> ...



Again go read what is the difference between Daisy Chain and T-Topology...Manufacturers don't tell you what is is but reviewers usually do, and you can tell from the Memory QVL...


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> Again go read on what is the difference between Daisy Chain and T-Topology....


Dude, my board is daisy chained, NOT A PROBLEM.
You keep insisting things that aren't all that relevant to this topic. Yes, Daisy Chained topology is supposedly better for overclocking, but I'm not doing extreme overclocking here, am I? We're talking a 200MHz overclock on my RAM, well 100MHz actually and 100MHz for the IF. I'm sure the T-topology boards will do this just fine as well.
You're getting stuck on a board design technicality that isn't even a consideration at these speeds.


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2020)

A whole lot that's been said in this thread in regard to boot loading speed is pure lunacy, e.g. random IOPS being _low_ or UEFI/GPT as a _requirement_ to boot. I have an outright _"bad"_ SATA SSD which is a _lot _slower than what the topic starter has (_both_ throughput and random IOPS), I have CSM _enabled_ in BIOS and my system boots to the desktop (W10 64) in less than 20 seconds from the moment I press the power button. If I were a topic starter I'd also reinstall W10 from scratch.

People often load some crazy apps on their systems (which often run in background and use 100% of CPU for no reasons), some have RAM, registry and other "optimizers" (_most_ such apps are a sham), some run various badly coded hacking/activation tools, etc. etc. etc. _Almost always_ the first step in debugging your Windows issues is making it pristine, i.e. full reinstallation from scratch without installing any additional software, even drivers. Yes, drivers, because I've seen quite a lot of systems where misbehaving drivers caused slowdowns, CPU usage problems, latency/input lag issues, etc.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

birdie said:


> A whole lot that's been said in this thread in regard to boot loading speed is pure lunacy, e.g. random IOPS being _low_ or UEFI/GPT as a _requirement_ to boot. I have an outright _"bad"_ SATA SSD which is a _lot _slower than what the topic starter has (_both_ throughput and random IOPS), I have CSM _enabled_ in BIOS and my system boots to the desktop (W10 64) in less than 20 seconds from the moment I press the power button. If I were a topic starter I'd also reinstall W10 from scratch.
> 
> People often load some crazy apps on their systems (which often run in background and use 100% of CPU for no reasons), some have RAM, registry and other "optimizers" (_most_ such apps are a sham), some run various badly coded hacking/activation tools, etc. etc. etc. _Almost always_ the first step in debugging your Windows issues is making it pristine, i.e. full reinstallation from scratch without installing any additional software, even drivers. Yes, drivers, because I've seen quite a lot of systems where misbehaving drivers caused slowdowns, CPU usage problems, latency/input lag issues, etc.


If you'd actually read what I said, you might've been able to make some sense of it, rather than going on a rant.
GPT is actually important for NVMe SSDs, as you lose out a lot of performance if you use MBR instead. I made this mistake with my previous system and my SSD was only at about 2/3 of the performance it was after I installed Windows 10 using GPT. I NEVER said it was a requirement to boot.
As for disabling CSM, I said it might help reduce the boot time a little bit, but it's most likely not the issue here. It saves a couple of seconds off the boot time and wasn't going to help the OP with his/her issue.
But I guess reading comprehension isn't one of your skills?

Also, the OP provided a screenshot of his SSD performance and it's clear there's something wrong with the IOPS, as they're about 1/5th of what they should be.

You did bring up one thing I didn't think about though, doesn't Samsung have their own custom driver for their SSDs? I guess the OP might not have installed it.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

Hey guys, I appreciate all the discussion. I’m willing to put in a lot of work to get my system optimized but it is correct that I am NOT looking for maxing the performance to a point where instability could occur.
First off, I just want the system to run normal and than We can think about OCing a bit.

having that said, money isn’t the issue but ofc I wanna spend it wisely. The 4 8gig blocks g.skill royals though do look appealing to me, they have great stock timings and really fit the rgb style I have in the system.

i am well aware the 4 blocks won’t give me more than dual channel, but I will read up on the links provided.

i do think I don’t have a specific driver installed for the SSD but I have the Samsung Magician tool downloaded

i’m typing on the phone right now so I just wanted to confirm my next steps for today as suggested

Trying to run cinebench in safe mode having the bios loaded with the stock optimized settings to see if it has to do with my installed stuff
Trying to punch in dram 1.7.1 values - first only primary timings and try to post, second punch in all numbers and try
If all fails - order the ram!
For everyone, I will definitely try to reinstall windows one more time but to be honest, I do struggle installing what is really needed. can’t do that before 2 weeks either. I know I need chipset driver sound driver, and all the mobo stuff from asus support page but it is possible that I forget smth
It is mothers day so it takes 7-8h until I can test the things above.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Dude, my board is daisy chained, NOT A PROBLEM.
> You keep insisting things that aren't all that relevant to this topic. Yes, Daisy Chained topology is supposedly better for overclocking, but I'm not doing extreme overclocking here, am I? We're talking a 200MHz overclock on my RAM, well 100MHz actually and 100MHz for the IF. I'm sure the T-topology boards will do this just fine as well.
> You're getting stuck on a board design technicality that isn't even a consideration at these speeds.



You show a complete lack of knowledge here,
First you advise someone not to follow Asus memory QVL, which is a big no no.
Second you advise to use a 4 Dimms config on a cheap daisy chain board at 3800mhz, which just wont happen, even at 3600mhz and 4 Dimms you have to check the QVL very carefully.
Yeah if someone is following your advise they are just throwing money at nothing...


----------



## Fourstaff (May 10, 2020)

Alright peeps, keep it civil and less name calling please. We don't want to scare off OP just yet.


----------



## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

@TheLostSwede
no link. it started when i looked at ram and noticed SS/DS and SR/DR being mentioned, and wanted to know what is what.
reading about 3600/3700 reviews, it was something a couple testers saw (testing mem-controller/ram R/W output),
and once i had seen "not just one" reporting it, i just memorized which type of stick to get, without keeping any other info.


@ecopsorn
no need for the magician tool, unless you want to secure erase etc, but not needed for drive at all,
and the (missing) driver is not gonna be the cause for 4/5 performance drop, the MS one coming with win is fine (until chipset etc is installed)
i would do a clean install after loading defaults in bios.

@ngyen
QVL means tested and verified, NOT any guarantee it will work
what about older sticks getting a refresh and different chips, but model (name) stays? the new module is on the QVL,
would that now include the "older" type (with a different chip inside), just because the model name didnt change?! nope.

best example:
in the past 5y i had boards from 120-300$ (for myself/other builds) that would do jack (most the time having trouble to post) with ram listed,
yet the sticks i switched to that worked, +80% were NOT on the list, so i gave up on buying only listed ram.
its kinda physically impossible for board vendors to guarantee that, as mem controller is on the cpu (amd),
and they neither know what chip your getting (3600-39xx) nor what ends up in your rig lottery wise.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> You show a complete lack of knowledge here,
> First you advise someone not to follow Asus memory QVL, which is a big no no.
> Second you advise to use a 4 Dimms config on a cheap daisy chain board at 3800mhz, which just wont happen, even at 3600mhz and 4 Dimms you have to check the QVL very carefully.
> Yeah if someone is following your advise they are just throwing money at nothing...


Uhm, since when is daisy chained topology cheap? It allows for better overclocking, but ok...

And I guess you aren't reading my posts, just having a rant. The QVL's only mean the board makers have tested the RAM they have at hand. It doesn't mean that other RAM doesn't work just as fine or better.
As I said, none of my RAM is on the QVL and it works 1000x better than the old crap I had that was on the QVL.

I have worked with computers for most of my working life, I used to be a reviewer and have done 20+ motherboard group tests when I worked for an actual computer magazine, but yeah, I know nothing...



ecopsorn said:


> Hey guys, I appreciate all the discussion. I’m willing to put in a lot of work to get my system optimized but it is correct that I am NOT looking for maxing the performance to a point where instability could occur.
> First off, I just want the system to run normal and than We can think about OCing a bit.
> 
> having that said, money isn’t the issue but ofc I wanna spend it wisely. The 4 8gig blocks g.skill royals though do look appealing to me, they have great stock timings and really fit the rgb style I have in the system.
> ...


Instability doesn't mean optimised for one, quite the opposite. My system have been working fine for months, not a glitch, not a hiccup, not a BSOD. 

Unfortunately, computers sometimes seem to have a will of their own and it can be really hard to pin-point issues and I guess that's also why there are so many opinions on what to do and what to buy. Everyone has different experiences, even with the same parts. Then there's the fact that there are hardware revisions made by the parts makers, some you can tell, others are less obvious. It makes it quite tricky to figure out what has gone wrong sometimes and what was a solution six months ago, might no longer work.

Try the NVMe driver here, it might help improve the IOPS performance. 








						Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe M.2 | Samsung Semiconductor Global
					

Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD offers read/write speeds of up to 3,500/3,300MB/s in 250GB, 500GB, 1TB and 2TB. Discover specs, firmware, and Magician software here.




					www.samsung.com
				




I hope you can figure what the issue is, but considering none of the suggestions have worked so far, or you already did the correct thing, this is a bit baffling.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @TheLostSwede
> no link. it started when i looked at ram and noticed SS/DS and SR/DR being mentioned, and wanted to know what is what.
> reading about 3600/3700 reviews, it was something a couple testers saw (testing mem-controller/ram R/W output),
> and once i had seen "not just one" reporting it, i just memorized which type of stick to get, without keeping any other info.
> ...



RAM manufacturers would sometimes switch memory ICs without telling, but it's riskier to buy some kit outside the QVL unless you know exactly what ICs are in it, for example Samsung B-die are go to kit whether it's in the QVL or not. If you get some kit that is not Samsung B-die and not in the QVL, yeah that only means trouble...



TheLostSwede said:


> Uhm, since when is daisy chained topology cheap? It allows for better overclocking, but ok...
> 
> And I guess you aren't reading my posts, just having a rant. The QVL's only mean the board makers have tested the RAM they have at hand. It doesn't mean that other RAM doesn't work just as fine or better.
> As I said, none of my RAM is on the QVL and it works 1000x better than the old crap I had that was on the QVL.
> ...



Most X570 board use Chaisy Chain and most Z390 board use T-Topology (Intel prefers T-Topology), even the Asus Z390 Maximum XI Hero use the T-Topology. That information can easily be extracted if you had read the Memory QVL (highest memory overclocks are available only to 4 DIMMs). I guess being a reviewer means you don't have to read the official information about a product eh ?

Furthermore using Dual Rank Rams (2x16GB kits) have the same effect as 4x8GB kit as 4 kit would simulate the effect of Dual Rank. Check out Buildzoid over at Actually Hardcore Overclock Youtube if you want to know more about best Ram configurations for Ryzen...

And lastly anecdotal evidence cannot be recommended to beginners, that's like telling people to put 1.5V into the CPU because you ran just fine...

ps: putting together a PC is like child play to me, I have been doing it as a hobby for 20+ years now lol...


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

Keep in mind, that you may have a dud UMC.  My 3700X will not boot over 3200mhz ram.  A friends 3900x will not boot over 3200mhz ram.  If you are having troubles even at JEDEC speeds (I can't remember), you just have a dud.



ecopsorn said:


> What would be the best ram for me, speed, frequency, number of blocks if money is no object?





Fry178 said:


> i would still check if you can get some CL18 kits for less (unless budget isn't an issue),



Of those, I would get the Neos.  It is what I have and they work fine.  Mine will do 3800 at factory timings and 1.425V.



Fry178 said:


> True, Ryzen is doing much better than (amd) cpus in the past (with 4 sticks), BUT its not quad channel, so no big read/write gains (vs using 2 sticks).
> when i started looking into what parts to get for my zen2 build, and questioned if i wanted 2 or 4 sticks..



There is a large difference between 2 x 8 and 4 x 8.  Not so much with 2 x 16 vs 4 x 8.



birdie said:


> _Almost always_ the first step in debugging your Windows issues is making it pristine



That is the last step when all others have failed.  Throwing a system away is not the first step.  Figuring out if you have software conflicts is first.  Starting from scratch skips the hard work.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> RAM manufacturers would sometimes switch memory ICs without telling, but it's riskier to buy some kit outside the QVL unless you know exactly what ICs are in it, for example Samsung B-die are go to kit whether it's in the QVL or not. If you get some kit that is not Samsung B-die and not in the QVL, yeah that only means trouble...
> 
> Most X570 board use Chaisy Chain and most Z390 board use T-Topology (Intel prefers T-Topology), even the Asus Z390 Maximum XI Hero use the T-Topology. That information can easily be extracted if you had read the Memory QVL (highest memory overclocks are available only to 4 DIMMs). I guess being a reviewer means you don't have to read the official information about a product eh ?
> 
> ...


Again, you're reading WAY too much into the QVL. I have asked about the QVL's and my friends that work at various motherboard makers, as I've already explained, said that they just use whatever memory they have at hand. Also, if you read the QVL's, it doesn't even mention what CPU they tested with... As such, the QVL's are just an indication as to what may work. It's hardly something that should limit people from buying other, compatible memory, it's simply guidance.

Did you just say daisy chain was cheap? So does this mean all X570 boards are cheap? I'm confused now.
Also, I suggest you take a look at this, as most is a bit of an overstatement, as it depends a lot on the manufacturer.


			https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/edit#gid=2112472504
		


I'm not sure I've said anything different. In fact, I had to point out that exact same thing to someone else here.

Anecdotal? Right...
And these CPUs still peak at 1.5V, but no, I wouldn't tell anyone to set their base Voltage to 1.5V, as that would be rather stupid. That doesn't mean the CPUs don't hit 1.5V, time and time again.

And I used to do it for a living...



moproblems99 said:


> Keep in mind, that you may have a dud UMC.  My 3700X will not boot over 3200mhz ram.  A friends 3900x will not boot over 3200mhz ram.  If you are having troubles even at JEDEC speeds (I can't remember), you just have a dud.



See, this is what I thought when I built my system as well, I had no luck whatsoever going over 3,200MHz, with the same RAM that I have now. I thought I'd ended up with a dud CPU, but luckily that wasn't the case. With the UEFI and AGESA updates that came out in the following months, it all started to work as intended and then some. Have you tried clearing your CMOS after installing the latest UEFI on your system? As even after updating it, for whatever reason, not all settings are wiped properly and this can cause a problem, especially with RAM. It could also be you RAM, unless you've verified it works with a different CPU. I really don't think it's the memory controller, as AMD doesn't have that bad QC/QA on their CPUs.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> It could also be you RAM, unless you've verified it works with a different CPU. I really don't think it's the memory controller, as AMD doesn't have that bad QC/QA on their CPUs.



The ram works absolutely fine with the 3900x and Taichi x570.  The ram does not work with a 3700x and Taichi x570 or 3700x with an itx x470


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> The ram works absolutely fine with the 3900x and Taichi x570.  The ram does not work with a 3700x and Taichi x570 or 3700x with an itx x470


Interesting, at least if everything except the CPU are the same. If it's the memory controller, I can't see it being a widespread issue, since it's not something that's being reported about. Does any memory work over 3200MHz with that CPU? Obviously AMD only guarantees 3200MHz support, so technically there's nothing "wrong" as such.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Again, you're reading WAY too much into the QVL. I have asked about the QVL's and my friends that work at various motherboard makers, as I've already explained, said that they just use whatever memory they have at hand. Also, if you read the QVL's, it doesn't even mention what CPU they tested with... As such, the QVL's are just an indication as to what may work. It's hardly something that should limit people from buying other, compatible memory, it's simply guidance.
> 
> Did you just say daisy chain was cheap? So does this mean all X570 boards are cheap? I'm confused now.
> Also, I suggest you take a look at this, as most is a bit of an overstatement, as it depends a lot on the manufacturer.
> ...



Again stop with the BS advice like "don't bother with the QVL" as Asus has the most comprehensive memory QVL out there, they even test which Dual Kit (2x8GB) work in 4x8GB configuration and which 4x8GB or 4x16GB kit won't work with 4 DIMM installed. People might have bought a Quad kit that were tested not to work properly if they don't check the QVL.
This is included in the QVL for ASUS strix X570-E Gaming







If you buy one of these 32GB and 64GB kit and they don't work at 3600mhz, that just means you are stupid. You are advising people to buy hardware based on luck there.
There are plenty of reasons why a RAM kit in the QVL might not work due to weak CPU IMC or faulty Motherboards, but it is more of an assurance when a memory is in included in the QVL rather than not...
Sure if you have the time to run back to the store and swap for a new kit why not, but other people might not have to time just to run back and forth.


----------



## Makaveli (May 10, 2020)

I always recommend buying QVL memory for your board.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> Again stop with the BS advice like "don't bother with the QVL" as Asus has the most comprehensive memory QVL out there, they even test which Dual Kit (2x8GB) work in 4x8GB configuration and which 4x8GB or 4x16GB kit won't work with 4 DIMM installed. People might have bought a Quad kit that were tested not to work properly if they don't check the QVL.
> This is included in the QVL for ASUS strix X570-E Gaming
> 
> 
> ...



It's not BS advice, it's a fact, the QVL's are only for guidance, whether you want to believe that or not. 
Show me which CPU they used to produce that list, otherwise it means nothing.
And no, that's not how some of it is tested, a lot of the time, they only test two modules out of a four DIMM kit, as they didn't have time to test all four modules. Even the DRAM makers, tend to test a lot of memory sticks one by one, rather than in a set, even though they sell them as a set. 

Tell that to @moproblems99 I'm sure he'll agree with you...
And memory makers NEVER makes changes to their kits... 

I'm not advising anyone to buy anything. Please show me where I have recommended that anyone should buy anything. I mentioned what I use and it worked for me. I also said it's not the very best out there. So PLEASE stop trying to twist the truth.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> It's not BS advice, it's a fact, the QVL's are only for guidance, whether you want to believe that or not.
> Show me which CPU they used to produce that list, otherwise it means nothing.
> And no, that's not how some of it is tested, a lot of the time, they only test two modules out of a four DIMM kit, as they didn't have time to test all four modules. Even the DRAM makers, tend to test a lot of memory sticks one by one, rather than in a set, even though they sell them as a set.
> 
> ...



So Asus would test 2 DIMM out of a 4 DIMM kit, then test 4 DIMM configuration with a 2 DIMM kit, hmmm....






This is of course tested on a Matisse CPU as indicated by the file name




__





						ROG Strix X570-E Gaming | ROG Strix | Gaming Motherboards｜ROG - Republic of Gamers｜ROG Global
					

AMD Ryzen 3000 series ATX motherboard with Aura Sync, WiFi 6(802.11ax), 2.5G LAN, Intel 1G LAN, Dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 with heatsinks, SupremeFX and USB 3.2 Gen 2



					www.asus.com
				



whether they used a 3600 or a 3950X CPU for testing, does it even matter as they use the same IO die. Asus might have used a CPU with one of the best IO controller die here.
Again it is pure luck that your setup work out, that or you constantly swapped out memory kits until they work...


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> Again stop with the BS advice like "don't bother with the QVL" as Asus has the most comprehensive memory QVL out there, they even test which Dual Kit (2x8GB) work in 4x8GB configuration and which 4x8GB or 4x16GB kit won't work with 4 DIMM installed. People might have bought a Quad kit that were tested not to work properly if they don't check the QVL.
> This is included in the QVL for ASUS strix X570-E Gaming



So for the less informed of us, can you tell me why the board affects memory when the memory controller is in the CPU?  What is contained in the board besides the slot and traces that would affect memory compatibility?



nguyen said:


> Again it is pure luck that your setup work out, that or you constantly swapped out memory kits until they work...



I have never bought qvl in my life.  Also, never had a problem.  And no, not being able to boot my Neo over 3200 isn't a problem because that is all AMD guarantees.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> Again it is pure luck that your setup work out, that or you constantly swapped out memory kits until they work...


Yeah, right, sure...


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

What the hell happened to the thread overnight?

@ecopsorn the Royal is a more high end kit because the timings pretty much guarantee it to be B-die. 16-16-16 flat, Rev.E and DJR can't do that. With B-die like that, if you know what you're doing, chances are its OC capabilities will leave your CPU in the dust. Read: your CPU's memory controller will limit you to 3600/3733/3800, not the kit. G.skill usually reserves its best ICs for Royal that has high freq tight timings.

Your Vengeance kit has B-die too, but one is literally bottom of the scrap heap and the other is a stone's throw from the crown jewel.

Hence why it's so expensive. But if you want great performance that'll work, and maybe optimize a bit and OC to 3733, the first Neo kit should work very well for you. Timings look like it shoud be CJR or DJR. The Royal is good, but it's got the price to back that up. The other Neo kit is priced out of its own league; Neos can come with B-die, but Neo is a new line for Ryzen while quite a number of Royal SKUs are G.skill's absolute cream of the crop for Intel.

I personally have a 2 x 16GB Trident Z RGB with DJR. The XMP was originally 3600/17-19-19, a little bit looser than the common 3600/16-19-19 Tridents. I run 3600/16-19-20 at the XMP 1.35V, it runs fine. I'd expect the 3600/16-19-19 to be possibly have a bit more OC potential.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

nguyen said:


> So Asus would test 2 DIMM out of a 4 DIMM kit, then test 4 DIMM configuration with a 2 DIMM kit, hmmm....



Actually, in looking at this pic of qvl, I wonder why the didn't test any 2 x 16 kits from GSkill.  I don't believe for a second that none of the 2 x 16 will work and people will only get lucky.  Are 2x16 kits not popular?


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> So for the less informed of us, can you tell me why the board affects memory when the memory controller is in the CPU?  What is contained in the board besides the slot and traces that would affect memory compatibility?
> 
> I have never bought qvl in my life.  Also, never had a problem.  And no, not being able to boot my Neo over 3200 isn't a problem because that is all AMD guarantees.



I never bothered with QVL either when I bought the 8700K, they just work at XMP, overclock beyond that is luck with Motherboard, Ram and CPU IMC (Furthermore I don't gain any mhz using 2 DIMM instead of 4 as my Z370 board use T-Topology design); but for Ryzen which is extremely finicky with RAM, I tend to look for Samsung B-die, which is not noted anywhere but the motherboard manufacturer QVL or the RAM advertisements.  
Sure you could have a CPU with a dud IMC, but in that case looking the the QVL would tell you there is something wrong with your CPU no ?

Just look at the entire QVL, they are comprehensive, the Asus X570-E Gaming even work with select 4x16GB kit...


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> personally have a 2 x 16GB Trident Z RGB with DJR. The XMP was originally 3600/17-19-19, a little bit looser than the common 3600/16-19-19 Tridents. I run 3600/16-19-20 at the XMP 1.35V, it runs fine. I'd expect the 3600/16-19-19 to be possibly have a bit more OC potential.



I can't get my Neos less than 16-19-x-x either.  When I am less lazy I am going to try my Samsung A-Die a that can do 15-15-15-something according to ThaiBurn.



nguyen said:


> Sure you could have a CPU with a dud IMC, but in that case looking the the QVL would tell you there is something wrong with your CPU no ?



Except the same ram in the same board works at 3800 with a different cpu so can't be the board, no?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Try the NVMe driver here, it might help improve the IOPS performance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did install the driver and can confirm that I didn't have it installed before. Results though are similar, even worse for write lol





Getting the stuff done now as promised, report back soon


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I can't get my Neos less than 16-19-x-x either.  When I am less lazy I am going to try my Samsung A-Die a that can do 15-15-15-something according to ThaiBurn.
> 
> Except the same ram in the same board works at 3800 with a different cpu so can't be the board, no?



So let me get this straight,
just tell me which one of these has a higher chance of happening:
1. Ram maker change ICs
2. CPU with Dud IMC or a dud motherboard
3. Memory support not listed in QVL or listed as not working but they work in real life
4. Memory support work or not work as intended in the QVL



ecopsorn said:


> I did install the driver and can confirm that I didn't have it installed before. Results though are similar, even worse for write lol
> View attachment 154634
> 
> Getting the stuff done now as promised, report back soon



Sorry to ask now but have you install the AMD chipset driver ?


			https://www.amd.com/en/support/chipsets/amd-socket-am4/x570


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I can't get my Neos less than 16-19-x-x either.  When I am less lazy I am going to try my Samsung A-Die a that can do 15-15-15-something according to ThaiBurn.
> 
> Except the same ram in the same board works at 3800 with a different cpu so can't be the board, no?



Yeah, it's just something of a hard wall for Hynix. It's like how only Samsung can do unusually low tRFC. Despite its general reputation as a trash tier overclocker, my 4Gb D-die would probably be faster than my DJR if it it could be OCed to 3600. I just can't be bothered because there's not an IC that's more loathed than geriatric 4Gb D-die.

To be honest, during the period of time when I was running 16-18-18, benchmark differences were pretty minimal at 3600. Performance differences probably nonexistent between 3600 16-18 and 16-19. The gap might widen a little if it was 16-16-16 instead, or at 3800.

Also, I'm not sure what this other guy and his QVL crusade is all about. Is this some sort of personal vendetta against G.skill and their use of CJR/DJR?


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Yeah, it's just something of a hard wall for Hynix. It's like how only Samsung can do unusually low tRFC. Despite its general reputation as a trash tier overclocker, my 4Gb D-die would probably be faster than my DJR if it it could be OCed to 3600. I just can't be bothered because there's not an IC that's more loathed than geriatric 4Gb D-die.
> 
> To be honest, during the period of time when I was running 16-18-18, benchmark differences were pretty minimal at 3600. Performance differences probably nonexistent between 3600 16-18 and 16-19. The gap might widen a little if it was 16-16-16 instead, or at 3800.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what this other guy and his QVL crusade is all about. Is this some sort of personal vendetta against G.skill and their use of CJR/DJR?



Yeah, pretty much why I am not worried about the specs.  Anything 3600-c16 something is perfectly fine.



nguyen said:


> So let me get this straight,
> just tell me which one of these has a higher chance of happening:
> 1. Ram maker change ICs
> 2. CPU with Dud IMC or a dud motherboard
> ...



#3.

Edit: do any board manufacturers actually list modules that don't work?  And are they any modules that are proven to not work?



ecopsorn said:


> I did install the driver and can confirm that I didn't have it installed before. Results though are similar, even worse for write lol
> View attachment 154634
> 
> Getting the stuff done now as promised, report back soon



That is really odd.  I suspect there is a bios setting causing some issue like not being in ahci mode (but that hasn't been a thing in ages).


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> #3.
> 
> Edit: do any board manufacturers actually list modules that don't work?  And are they any modules that are proven to not work?


Just for once look over at the QVL ? some of the 4x8GB kit are listed as not working with 4 DIMM installed, would you buy them knowing Asus tested and they don't work with 4 DIMM installed ?
Or whatever, just buy what you want and if that don't work, swap out for a new kit anyways....that is if I live in the States, other place they don't give you exchange without valid reasons, and buying 4x8GB kits that were tested not to work on your motherboard is not one of them....


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> yeah I surely don't wanna waste money but I'm also not willing to accept a 2800$ build to run like crap.
> I've downloaded the latest DRAM calc 1.7.1 and this what it spits out for 3200 with imported taiphoon readout
> View attachment 154586
> 
> not much difference to the old version and I'm 100% sure it won't POST like this.



I can confirm @TheLostSwede that these settings won't let me boot, error F9 on the mobo. I have tried with DOCCP, Auto and Manual setting. I have tried entering only the basics (first 5) and I have tried entering it all. I'm done trying anything for this piece of crap ram anymore.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Edit: do any board manufacturers actually list modules that don't work?  And are they any modules that are proven to not work?


Not as such, they simply list the highest achievable speed. So a 3600MHz kit might be listed as only doing 2400MHz on whatever their specific test setup is.



nguyen said:


> Just for once look over at the QVL ? some of the 4x8GB kit are listed as not working with 4 DIMM installed, would you buy them knowing Asus tested and they don't work with 4 DIMM installed ?
> Or whatever, just buy what you want and if that don't work, swap out for a new kit anyways....that is if I live in the States, other place they don't give you exchange without valid reasons, and buying 4x8GB kits that were tested not to work on your motherboard is not one of them....


Or you know, it's like I said, they only tested two modules out of that kit, as it was almost lunch time...



ecopsorn said:


> I can confirm @TheLostSwede that these settings won't let me boot, error F9 on the mobo. I have tried with DOCCP, Auto and Manual setting. I have tried entering only the basics (first 5) and I have tried entering it all. I'm done trying anything for this piece of crap ram anymore.


But did you set the tCL to 16, rather than 14? Normally it's either the tCL, or one of the next three sub timings, as well as tRFC that prevents boot. Also, in my experience, Ryzen 3000 series doesn't really like odd tCL timings, but that's obviously not the issue here.
If you're at 1.35V, then it really ought to work, but alas here we are...


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

@ecopsorn , this is quite and interesting problem.  I need to recheck the thread but perhaps post the UEFI pic of storage controllers.



nguyen said:


> Just for once look over at the QVL ?



I looked at the image you posted, doesn't show not working. So let's look at that pic you posted.  There are no 2 x 16 GSkill kits.  Does that mean that board doesn't work with 2 x 16 GSkill kits?  I can only by 2x8 or 4x8 if I want GSkill?  Also, my last post.  Don't want to derail the ops thread, who actually needs help.


----------



## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> I can confirm @TheLostSwede that these settings won't let me boot, error F9 on the mobo. I have tried with DOCCP, Auto and Manual setting. I have tried entering only the basics (first 5) and I have tried entering it all. I'm done trying anything for this piece of crap ram anymore.



Not sure what you put in that Calculator give you a cas latency of 14
Try these settings





And lastly change the Command Rate to 2T in the bios,
After making sure that your RAM work stable, maybe follow the guide here regarding your slow booting 




__





						[SOLVED] - boot slow time solution on ryzen 3700x and x570
					

hello  I have just build new pc  I took a long time when i start windows and i dont know why It takes me around 15-20 sec to see the first bios picture AND 35-40 TO SEE MY DESKTOP  is there setting should i do in bios  my pc: ryzen 3700x asus x570 tuf gaming plus wifi Asus ROG Strix GeForce RTX™...




					forums.tomshardware.com
				






moproblems99 said:


> I looked at the image you posted, doesn't show not working. So let's look at that pic you posted.  There are no 2 x 16 GSkill kits.  Does that mean that board doesn't work with 2 x 16 GSkill kits?  I can only by 2x8 or 4x8 if I want GSkill?  Also, my last post.  Don't want to derail the ops thread, who actually needs help.



So you buy a 4x8GB kit and ASUS tested the same kit and found their board won't boot with 4 slots occupied, do you consider your 4x8GB kit to be working properly ?
Can anyone in this forum read a manual for once before they start advising people ?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

birdie said:


> Your memory speed does not explain your extremely low CineBench 20 results.
> 
> 1. Please try to load BIOS defaults, save them and do not change anything afterwards. Do not even enable XMPP/DCCP or anything - just pure defaults. You may disable additional controllers (e.g. Firewire) in BIOS which you're sure you'll never use.
> 2. Please then try to boot Windows in safe mode to eliminate any backgrounds tasks - make sure task manager reports 0% CPU load after you booted this way.
> ...



@birdie , OMG I think we are getting somewhere.
I did exactly what you asked and these were the results! I did check the CPU and it was as at 0% load at idle.
And now it comes!!! When I start windows in normal boot and open the Performance tab, my CPU is at 25% IDLE (swapping between 16-29% - holy moly guacamole!

1.) Reset Bios settings by loading optimized defaults




than I went back and enablec DOCCP:




so the question to all of you now, what does that tell me?

are my ram still shit and should be replaced?
obviously I need a fresh windows install and will plan ahead what I will install including drivers, etc.
it still doesn't explain the extremely slow boot time- Boot time is still 58sec until loading screen with the default or straight DOCCP bios settings



nguyen said:


> Sorry to ask now but have you install the AMD chipset driver ?
> 
> 
> https://www.amd.com/en/support/chipsets/amd-socket-am4/x570


yes, got that one installed



TheLostSwede said:


> But did you set the tCL to 16, rather than 14? Normally it's either the tCL, or one of the next three sub timings, as well as tRFC that prevents boot. Also, in my experience, Ryzen 3000 series doesn't really like odd tCL timings, but that's obviously not the issue here.
> If you're at 1.35V, then it really ought to work, but alas here we are...


I tried it all man, really, not this time around but I had so many timings tested and even pretty low ones that I could actually boot with, but latency and scores were sucky still.



moproblems99 said:


> @ecopsorn , this is quite and interesting problem.  I need to recheck the thread but perhaps post the UEFI pic of storage controllers.


will do, coming back in a sec.



nguyen said:


> Not sure what you put in that Calculator give you a cas latency of 14
> Try these settings
> And lastly change the Command Rate to 2T in the bios


tried it all already without real success



tabascosauz said:


> What the hell happened to the thread overnight?
> 
> @ecopsorn the Royal is a more high end kit because the timings pretty much guarantee it to be B-die. 16-16-16 flat, Rev.E and DJR can't do that. With B-die like that, if you know what you're doing, chances are its OC capabilities will leave your CPU in the dust. Read: your CPU's memory controller will limit you to 3600/3733/3800, not the kit. G.skill usually reserves its best ICs for Royal that has high freq tight timings.
> 
> ...


@tabascosauz 
thanks man, yeah I didn't expect this thread to get so heated .

I haven't decided yet between the 2x Neo or the 4x Royal. Besides speed, the bling of the royal would suit my build because I have a Guardians of the Galaxy theme. I could use some infinity stone ram lol


----------



## Makaveli (May 10, 2020)

Your Score seems about right now.

Also windows 10 has a built in screen capture software either the snipping tool or sketch and snip on the newer builds you don't need to take screenshots with a cell phone.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

@moproblems99 - don’t know what I should screenshot from the bios in terms of storage. Seems all good, here’s a pic


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

@ecopsorn Have your CPU temps changed after restoring defaults?

I personally like the brushed look of the RGB, Z and Neo better, but the Royals are gorgeous (apart from the font they chose for the heatspreader). And being 4 DIMMs, it visually fills up the banks in a way that 2 DIMM kits can't. I'm sure you are aware of the advantages and disadvantages of 2 vs 4 DIMMs, now, so I won't bore you on that.

It depends on what direction you want to take now. Are you content with the RAM performance as is? It doesn't appear like there will be any magic solutions for this Vengeance kit. As long as it's stable and you don't care about the minor gap in real world performance, I don't see too much problem with keeping it.

And if you do want another kit, your choices are laid out in front of you.

4900 is acceptable. I would personally want a little higher from a 3800X, but if game performance is where it should be, then no issues there. I'm also around the 4900 mark with my 3700X bone stock, with optimized PBO settings it goes up to 4980 but in terms of power and heat, it just isn't worth it for me to run it like that.

More important is that your CB single thread score should be above 510.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

@tabascosauz  - well I’m not sure, I guess I only know more when I reinstalled windows with the guide provided here to hopefully get proper boot times. I’m still wondering why there is such a insane difference in score between safe mode and normal.

Unfortunately the temps haven’t changed with default bios settings

so my main issues are still

Temps (if that’s an issue)
Boot time
Cinebench score in normal boot (hopefully fixed with re-install win
GPU underperforming as well
m2 issue

i doubt that only new ram would fix it all but I gotta start somewhere


----------



## tabascosauz (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @tabascosauz  - well I’m not sure, I guess I only know more when I reinstalled windows with the guide provided here to hopefully get proper boot times. I’m still wondering why there is such a insane difference in score between safe mode and normal.
> 
> Unfortunately the temps haven’t changed with default bios settings
> 
> ...



You benched in safe boot?

Safe boot yields consistently higher scores in all the benches that I've found to work in safe boot. My CPU-Z ST scores are close to what a 3900X/3950X can do. I'm starting to think that it's changed nothing for you with loading BIOS defaults.

New RAM should change boot time, and obviously your memory performance and latency. But a clean install should come first. I have no idea what sort of stuff you have on there.

What power plan are you using? Are you using the Ryzen power plans included in the drivers?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> You benched in safe boot?
> 
> Safe boot yields consistently higher scores in all the benches that I've found to work in safe boot. My CPU-Z ST scores are close to what a 3900X/3950X can do. I'm starting to think that it's changed nothing for you with loading BIOS defaults.
> 
> ...



yes in safe boot cause @birdie suggested it.

using the ryzen balanced power plan as suggested everywhere.

for windows it is pretty clean i just installed a month ago, so really no idea what’s the issue there.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @birdie , OMG I think we are getting somewhere.
> I did exactly what you asked and these were the results! I did check the CPU and it was as at 0% load at idle.
> And now it comes!!! When I start windows in normal boot and open the Performance tab, my CPU is at 25% IDLE (swapping between 16-29% - holy moly guacamole!
> 
> ...



When your system is booting, does it look like its rebooting multiple times? Or does it just sit at the splash screen for a while until it finally loads windows?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> When your system is booting, does it look like its rebooting multiple times? Or does it just sit at the splash screen for a while until it finally loads windows?


It just boots slow, rog strix logo on screen for like 45sec than 12sec black screen and than i see the login screen.

when i try timings that won’t work, system dies try to boot 3x and than it ends up at error 22, F9 or so and if I am lucky I end up back in bios. At 22 I need to CMOS reset


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @birdie , OMG I think we are getting somewhere.
> I did exactly what you asked and these were the results! I did check the CPU and it was as at 0% load at idle.
> And now it comes!!! When I start windows in normal boot and open the Performance tab, my CPU is at 25% IDLE (swapping between 16-29% - holy moly guacamole!



It tells you that there are a lot of BS'ers in this thread who

1) Believe that SSD speed may affect CB scores and affects Windows boot time by more than 0.25 seconds
2) Believe that drivers for an SSD decide everything
2) Believe that memory can run so bad it results in > 20% of performance being lost in a *CPU bound* test. CB barely touches RAM at all, it's not 7-Zip or WinRAR - the only tests which are very sensitive to RAM speeds.

What does it tell you?

Well, my honest advice will be

1) Run the Windows boot media tool and prepare a USB flash disk for installation.
2) Install Windows from scratch (on a new fresh device, or simply wipe/reformat everything), and then do *not* install any software or drivers afterwards. Maybe let Windows install all the updates and reboot several times just to be sure you're done with updates. The Windows Updates service can be a dick to your benchmarking sessions.
3) Run CB20 and remember the scores.
4) Install e.g. AMD chipset drivers, rerun CB20 and check that scores haven't changed
5) Install GPU drivers and check that scores haven't changed

If you're here now enjoying your full performance, it means you had something running in your previous W10 install which negatively affected your scores. Do *not *install everything at once. Do *not* play with Windows power schemes. I will go as far as to claim that AMD chipset drivers are *not* necessary to get your Ryzen system running almost perfectly. Intel INF drivers are often equally useless.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> so the question to all of you now, what does that tell me?
> 
> are my ram still shit and should be replaced?
> obviously I need a fresh windows install and will plan ahead what I will install including drivers, etc.
> it still doesn't explain the extremely slow boot time- Boot time is still 58sec until loading screen with the default or straight DOCCP bios settings



No, not necessarily.  The RAM seems fine for what it is.  When 25% of your CPU is used, what is shown as using it?


----------



## xman2007 (May 10, 2020)

birdie said:


> It tells you that there are a lot of BS'ers in this thread who
> 
> 1) Believe that SSD speed may affect CB scores and affects Windows boot time by more than 0.25 seconds
> 2) Believe that drivers for an SSD decide everything
> ...



I've been following the thread and I dont believe that anyone suggested the r20 scores were affected by the SSD speed, but that is a seperate issue he has, so it was suggested to install the samsung drivers to see if it fixed that particular problem, neither was it pointed out that would "decide everything" as you have put it. Also IF plays a big part in CPU performance with Zen 2 and having 1600 IF compared to 1800/1900 can and will have a negative effect on CPU bound benches. 

Agree with a clean Windows install though I believe the OP has done this previoulsy though I could be mistaken and is a good call otherwise, also he may just have to live with the fact his RAM and specific config wont run at anything above 3200 which I think he has and has decided to buy a more compatible kit that he can at least run at 3600 to get the best out of both the RAM and 3800x which is a good call imo


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2020)

_"IF playing a big part" _is another egregious overstatement but then this whole thread has been mostly a laughing stock so far. From the benchmarks I've seen so far it bestows or undermines benchmark scores by a miniscule amount. The first piece of advice I gave immediately resulted in the improvements the OP was looking for. Not fiddling with memory timings, QVL certifications, memory topology, BIOS settings, drivers, power schemes and other similar nonsense. Have fun discussing new ingenious ways of fixing the OP issues. 

@ecopsorn

Please reapply a thermal paste if you were the one who built your rig. If someone else did it, please ask them if you're allowed to do that and if it doesn't void your warranty.

I would not recommend OC'ing a Ryzen 3000 desktop CPU or even enabling PBO for two reasons: performance increases will be minimum while power consumption and temps will jump through the roof.


----------



## xman2007 (May 10, 2020)

birdie said:


> _"IF playing a big part" _is another egregious overstatement but then this whole thread has been mostly a laughing stock so far. From the benchmarks I've seen so far it bestows or undermines benchmark scores by a miniscule amount. The first piece of advice I gave immediately resulted in the improvements the OP was looking for. Not fiddling with memory timings, QVL certifications, memory topology, BIOS settings, drivers, power schemes and other similar nonsense. Have fun discussing new ingenious ways of fixing the OP issues.
> 
> @ecopsorn
> 
> ...


Not fiddling with Bios settings or windows settings? you told him to reset to default and boot up in safe mode   or does that not count, you jumped in and thought you'd fixed 4 pages with one suggestion that only work/showed an improvement in 1 area when he is in safe mode, maybe he can run his PC in safe mode for MAX performance 24/7 yay... well done, you won the internet tonight, take a bow...


----------



## ecopsorn (May 10, 2020)

@birdie  and at everyone
Gotta sleep, checkin in tmrw.
i built the rig and I’m confident that the thermal paste was applied correctly now. I just reinstalled the cooler yesterday.

But before I go to bed, how can windows issues, be it drivers or else, be the reason for long boot times? That’s probably a stupid question.

By the way, before my noctua I had the stock wraith prism installed, with stock paste. Idle temps were pretty much identical to my noctua now which is very strange again, right? I need to run prime 95 again tmrw, haven’t done so with the noctua but with my prism it got to like 96 degrees amd I stopped benching


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @birdie  and at everyone
> Gotta sleep, checkin in tmrw.
> i built the rig and I’m confident that the thermal paste was applied correctly now. I just reinstalled the cooler yesterday.
> 
> ...



Windows drivers may easily introduce delays when they have bugs and e.g. have long time outs for HW ininitialization. Likewise you may have some services which introduce delays as well.

To give you an example: while I had a GTX 1060 my W10 booted in less than 10 seconds, now with an RX 5600 XT the system takes up to 15 seconds to boot. A five seconds delay out of nowhere, almost, except it surely looks like NVIDIA drivers are better/faster/more efficient.


----------



## R-T-B (May 10, 2020)

birdie said:


> A five seconds delay out of nowhere, almost, except it surely looks like NVIDIA drivers are better/faster/more efficient.



Less to do with the drivers and more to do with all the useless DVR and related "fluff" AMD throws in that you can't really completely turn off.  Radeon Pro drivers are better there, and in NVIDIA's case, the counter example would be not loading Geforce Experience.

The mainline Radeon drivers are a mess there and I've said it for some time, just look under scheduled tasks for some fun.

/OT


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @birdie  and at everyone
> Gotta sleep, checkin in tmrw.
> i built the rig and I’m confident that the thermal paste was applied correctly now. I just reinstalled the cooler yesterday.
> 
> ...


If there's a bunch of "crap" interfering with the startup of Windows, then yes, it could affect the boot time. Just think about when you update Windows, then it takes a lot longer to boot, no? This is obviously because things are being updated as the computer starts, but I guess it's possible that something you installed is causing the delayed boot times, or maybe you've caught a virus or something similar. I'm obviously just making guesses here, but even normal programs can slow down the time it takes to get into Windows. This might be worth a quick look.








						Windows Startup Slow? How to find & disable startup programs [Easy Fix]
					

The longer you have your Windows computer, the slower it seems to start. One likely reason? Too many programs running on startup. Here's how to manage, turn off, and delete Windows startup programs.




					www.comparitech.com


----------



## Ruyki (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> But before I go to bed, how can windows issues, be it drivers or else, be the reason for long boot times? That’s probably a stupid question.


When the rox strix logo screen is shown, the motherboard firmware (BIOS/UEFI) is running.
If your system is on the rog strix logo on screen for like 45sec like you reported, then that is too long and that is causing the long boot time.


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2020)

Booting Windows in safe mode does *not* change any of your PC or OS settings. It's a *one* time procedure to eliminate most of the autoload crap in Windows and check if your CPU/RAM performance is within the normal limits. The safe mode that loads GPU drivers doesn't exist unfortunately. Again, this thread doesn't cease to amaze me with some outstanding nonsense.


----------



## Caring1 (May 10, 2020)

Ruyki said:


> When the rox strix logo screen is shown, the motherboard firmware (BIOS/UEFI) is running.
> If your system is on the rog strix logo on screen for like 45sec like you reported, then that is too long and that is causing the long boot time.


This ^^^ 
Bios loading is taking too long, the initialization process is way too slow.
I'm wondering if there is a Bios bug and if an update will fix it.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> This ^^^
> Bios loading is taking too long, the initialization process is way too slow.
> I'm wondering if there is a Bios bug and if an update will fix it.



Apparently, the OP is on the latest UEFI.  I am curious if there is something along the lines of 'FastBoot' (but not literally) that is enabled and causing problems.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 10, 2020)

Ruyki said:


> When the rox strix logo screen is shown, the motherboard firmware (BIOS/UEFI) is running.
> If your system is on the rog strix logo on screen for like 45sec like you reported, then that is too long and that is causing the long boot time.


That's only partially true, a lot of UEFI motherboards now use the same logo as the Windows loading animation.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @moproblems99 - don’t know what I should screenshot from the bios in terms of storage. Seems all good, here’s a pic



Ugh, that UEFI looks as shitty as ASRock.  I'd have to say, my MSI Z97 Gaming 7 was my favorite.  That said, I also had it for like 7 years so it could be that I was just used to it.  I hate ASRocks's right now.

Edit: Too expand, I think we can rule out any software causing the long boot time because the long boot time persisted with safe mode.  So we should be able to rule out driver and software loading issues.  That leaves us with UEFI/hardware.

Memory Training
Some weird ass hardware issue causing long boot times
UEFI bug
UEFI setting causing something
Something in Windows core
Not to mention you have the large performance loss with the SSD so that is where my focus would be at this point.  That and some strange UEFI setting.  I would have thought that reloading optimized defaults would have corrected this but weird things happen every day.

I don't know how much stuff you have installed/loaded and how much of a pain in the ass it is for you to reinstall windows, but that is always an option.  That would/could rule out something install related but I am not sure what that would be.  Just curious, what is your boot order setup in the UEFI?



TheLostSwede said:


> That's only partially true, a lot of UEFI motherboards now use the same logo as the Windows loading animation.



I can say that with mine, windows loads on top of the UEFI logo.  I think anyway, been a while since I watched it.  I for sure know it did with my Z97.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 11, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I can say that with mine, windows loads on top of the UEFI logo.  I think anyway, been a while since I watched it.  I for sure know it did with my Z97.


Both newer Gigabyte and MSI boards uses the UEFI logo as the Windows loading animation, I know this for sure, since my system at home does it and this loaner I'm using right now does it. It's even hard to tell when it goes from the UEFI to the Windows part sometimes.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 11, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Both newer Gigabyte and MSI boards uses the UEFI logo as the Windows loading animation, I know this for sure, since my system at home does it and this loaner I'm using right now does it. It's even hard to tell when it goes from the UEFI to the Windows part sometimes.



The UEFI logo simply persists. When the Windows loading spinner comes up, it's applied onto whatever background was already there. You can see this with fullscreen logos that are coloured, the animated spinner just sits on a small square. I could have sworn I've not even seen the spinner on some installations; the logo screen simply persists until the login screen while the text indicating the BIOS shortcuts just disappears when Windows begins loading.

Before the Windows loading begins, common UEFI issues can be:

fans spinning full speed, no display, logo screen, or BIOS/bootmenu shortcuts
bootlooping back into the full speed fan phase without reaching the logo screen, bad memory
stuck on the logo screen with non-responsive BIOS shortcuts, can be an issue with BIOS settings that aren't fully functional/are bugged
All of the above indicate problems outside of Windows. Now, if the BIOS shortcut text has already disappeared, and/or the spinner just keeps spinning indefinitely, that would sound like there's something up with Windows.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 11, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> The UEFI logo simply persists. When the Windows loading spinner comes up, it's applied onto whatever background was already there. You can see this with fullscreen logos that are coloured, the animated spinner just sits on a small square. I could have sworn I've not even seen the spinner on some installations; the logo screen simply persists until the login screen while the text indicating the BIOS shortcuts just disappears when Windows begins loading.
> 
> Before the Windows loading begins, common UEFI issues can be:
> 
> ...


Well, it's a "feature" of Windows 10 and can be undone on some Windows flavours.








						Unbranded Boot
					

Unbranded Boot



					docs.microsoft.com


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (May 11, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> It just boots slow, rog strix logo on screen for like 45sec than 12sec black screen and than i see the login screen.
> 
> when i try timings that won’t work, system dies try to boot 3x and than it ends up at error 22, F9 or so and if I am lucky I end up back in bios. At 22 I need to CMOS reset



Its probably sitting there trying to train the memory and its not happy with something so its taking a lot longer than usual. Memory training happens every boot up


----------



## junglist724 (May 11, 2020)

Turn Fastboot on(unless it causes you issues) and CSM off. CSM will greatly increase your boot times. Make sure your boot drive is GPT instead of MBR.


----------



## Fry178 (May 11, 2020)

*@*tabascosauz
have you run the ram with 1.32v and lower CL?
GB x570 boards are known to have at least +0.025 (up to 0.035 iirc) more v than shown in bios/monitor tools,
and even confirmed by a CS guy in their forum.

@junglist724
no it does not greatly, if noticable at all.
all x570 setups i did with couple different boards got me about 10-14s to desktop on other machines (less sw loaded),
and about 20s (all updates/drivers etc installed) for my rig while running csm mode.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 11, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> It just boots slow, rog strix logo on screen for like 45sec than 12sec black screen and than i see the login screen.
> 
> when i try timings that won’t work, system dies try to boot 3x and than it ends up at error 22, F9 or so and if I am lucky I end up back in bios. At 22 I need to CMOS reset



I gotta quote myself and revise the info provided a bit.
I don't have a youtube channel, would upload a vid, but providing numbers will do the trick as well I guess.

Pressing power button --> 12sec nothing happens on my monitors, black screen
12-25sec. Rog strix logo appears, sometimes wheel is spinning, sometimes I don't see a wheel
25sec.-ca. 58sec --> black screen
after 58sec. --> Login screen pops up
After logged in, it takes another at least 30-50sec until all background apps are loaded

Regarding the CPU load: The 25% was very strange: One app was at 10% at least 3min. after startup. I have the same app on other computers and it is constantly between 0-1%. After it loaded, computer is still between 8-10% load at idle - around 15 different services are above 0%. corsair service uses 2.1%.

*About the ram:*
I've ordered the 4x8gb g.skill royal's because there was just 1 item on stock with a delivery time of 6-8 days.
I could still send it back and get the Neo's if you guys really think it was the wrong choice. About the discussion about 2x16 or 4x8 seem to have different fanboys haha.



junglist724 said:


> Turn Fastboot on(unless it causes you issues) and CSM off. CSM will greatly increase your boot times. Make sure your boot drive is GPT instead of MBR.



I seem not to have a fast boot option in my bios, or I'm just blind lol. I have confirmed already that boot drive Samsung Evo 970 is GPT and I don't have any other drive in the system. CSM is also disabled.
Regarding the boot times and general problems, I will soon start my re-install process, following the guide that birdie provided.
The cinebench numbers in safe mode are so much higher than in normal boot, but not much difference between no DOCCP vs DOCCP, I was planning on run default values in bios again and than start the re-install process.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 11, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> I gotta quote myself and revise the info provided a bit.
> I don't have a youtube channel, would upload a vid, but providing numbers will do the trick as well I guess.
> 
> Pressing power button --> 12sec nothing happens on my monitors, black screen
> ...



This behaviour after POST all sounds almost like there's something wrong with the drive, like it's limited to absurdly low read speeds. I've only ever witnessed this kind of Win 10 bootup time on the most cluttered HDD installations on the slowest platforms 9-10 generations out of date. I'm guessing your drives are already on AHCI setting in BIOS? 

Do you have another SSD you can install Windows on and test with? At this point, any old SATA3 SSD should offer far better performance than you're getting.

The 12 seconds with nothing happening is nothing out of the normal considering memory training for low quality sticks. Everything else, however...the 30 seconds' worth of black screen after Windows starts loading is some of the weirdest shit I've ever heard.

Also, get rid of that Corsair iCUE garbage and test again; isn't that one of those things where you can uninstall after the initial setup of your fans and they'll work just fine without the software?

And what "app" was at least 10% after 3 minutes? I'm assuming you already have Task Manager open at this point so you can provide the name.


----------



## Caring1 (May 11, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> The 12 seconds with nothing happening is nothing out of the normal considering memory training for low quality sticks. Everything else, however...the 30 seconds' worth of black screen after Windows starts loading is some of the weirdest shit I've ever heard.


Memory Training does not occur on every boot from my experience, only the first couple of times.
The black screen between Bios and Windows sounds like a Uefi GPU issue.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 11, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> This behaviour after POST all sounds almost like there's something wrong with the drive, like it's limited to absurdly low read speeds. I've only ever witnessed this kind of Win 10 bootup time on the most cluttered HDD installations on the slowest platforms 9-10 generations out of date. I'm guessing your drives are already on AHCI setting in BIOS?
> 
> Do you have another SSD you can install Windows on and test with? At this point, any old SATA3 SSD should offer far better performance than you're getting.
> 
> ...



Sry about the bad quality but here's the task manager.
The app was "Snagit" - a screenshot app, but it only was at the beginning, now at 0% where it is supposed to be.
I need the iCUE for my RGB profils unfortunately and in it I have my commander pro controlling the case fan speeds as well.

I really don't have another SSD lying around but I could just test the drive again when I have a fully clean system?
And yes, it is on AHCI in bios. I only have RAID as another option which would be clearly wrong for one drive


----------



## tabascosauz (May 11, 2020)

@ecopsorn we asked what kind of stuff you had running on your comp - this is why. Plenty of reports out there throughout the years that Corsair Service is responsible for random peaks into double digit CPU usage (I just did a quick search and already there are complaints of 50% or more usage in legacy quad cores and FX CPUs) for no outwardly visible reason. That's without addressing the plethora of other background processes that are also going on, and only the ones that we can see - why do you need the Wraith Prism HID if you have a D15?

Generally, background programs can cost you a few dozen or up to a hundred score in Cinebench, but with Corsair Service the way it is, I wouldn't be surprised if it's responsible for a much larger hit to your scores, if it just happened to peak during your bench.

Why does it even need so much CPU usage if it's just logging data? This is like, the hardware monitoring program from hell.

This reinstall needs to have absolutely none of this stuff to actually troubleshoot anything. Absolutely none of it, including iCUE and its complement Service. The graphics drivers to get going, chipset drivers, and that's it.

What does your startup tab look like? This all shouldn't account for the slow boot, that's still up in the air.

Also, if the option still exists, disable Enable Full Software Control in iCUE.


----------



## Fry178 (May 11, 2020)

@tabascosauz 
I installed icue a few times for the corsair hydros used for cpu, and at least the last 2 releases did NOT cause any delay in boot,
and a clean install on sata3 ssd was getting to desktop in 10s and loading sw for another 5-6s.
lots of times ppl dont post positives about icue, so of course "its crap" will be found much easier/faster.
not saying i run it in the background after setup, but the few times it ran on 10x64 with 3600 and x570 i had no problems at all.

still, after clean install of win just install chipset, reboot, nvme driver, reboot and then checking stuff before installing other stuff would be advised.

@ecopsorn 
are you in "advanced" mode for bios? you can turn off the full screen logo, usually prevents you from seeing bios/system info.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 11, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Also, get rid of that Corsair iCUE garbage and test again; isn't that one of those things where you can uninstall after the initial setup of your fans and they'll work just fine without the software?


Sadly, you can not. iCUE has become a lot more integrated with their products as of lately and it's used for almost all Corsair products now. It's becoming more and more bloatware-ish, which is a shame. The UI/UX isn't great either imho.



ecopsorn said:


> Sry about the bad quality but here's the task manager.
> The app was "Snagit" - a screenshot app, but it only was at the beginning, now at 0% where it is supposed to be.
> I need the iCUE for my RGB profils unfortunately and in it I have my commander pro controlling the case fan speeds as well.
> 
> ...



Tips for screenshots. In Windows, press the Print Scr button (above the Ins key) will take a full screen screenshot. Hold down Alt (on the left side) and Prnt Scr and you take one of the active window. In the UEFI, if you have a FAT32 formatted USB drive plugged in, you can press something like F12 (varies between board makers) to take screenshots that are then saved to the USB drive.



Fry178 said:


> @tabascosauz
> I installed icue a few times for the corsair hydros used for cpu, and at least the last 2 releases did NOT cause any delay in boot,
> and a clean install on sata3 ssd was getting to desktop in 10s and loading sw for another 5-6s.
> lots of times ppl dont post positives about icue, so of course "its crap" will be found much easier/faster.
> ...


Agreed that it doesn't affect boot times, but it does slow down the part after you get into Windows a bit. 
Regardless of that, it's not a great piece of software and I know for a fact that it was rushed out due to management wanting it out. 
Every other release seems to have some new issues, while fixing others. Has it gotten better? For sure, but it's still a far cry from good software.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 11, 2020)

It is quoting time again! I've learned so much the last couple of days. I'm confident we get my rig fixed, hell I'd even consider switching out the CPU and board now lol! 



ecopsorn said:


>



What do you guys think about the fan setup, probably it could help getting better case temps.
I currently have the 3 in front is intake (idle around 630rpm) and the other 3 as outlet (around 600rpm) to create a positive pressure (suggested somewhere in the corsair forum).
I was thinking now I could use the top right fan and switch it to intake as well, so 4 intake, 2 outlet. Would that make sense? just an idea.

The style prism fan is of course not on during load, it would disrupt air flow, it is just for the blingz.



birdie said:


> Well, my honest advice will be
> 
> 1) Run the Windows boot media tool and prepare a USB flash disk for installation.
> 2) Install Windows from scratch (on a new fresh device, or simply wipe/reformat everything), and then do *not* install any software or drivers afterwards. Maybe let Windows install all the updates and reboot several times just to be sure you're done with updates. The Windows Updates service can be a dick to your benchmarking sessions.
> ...


@birdie 
I will do just that when I re-install.



junglist724 said:


> Turn Fastboot on(unless it causes you issues) and CSM off. CSM will greatly increase your boot times. Make sure your boot drive is GPT instead of MBR.


I finally found Fast Boot lol but it was already enabled.... for the fun I disabled it now and got the same 60sec boot time.



tabascosauz said:


> What does your startup tab look like? This all shouldn't account for the slow boot, that's still up in the air.
> Also, if the option still exists, disable Enable Full Software Control in iCUE.


@tabascosauz 
looks like that, now I'm sure someone can tell me why I have 8 steam client tasks lol. Also WIndows Host Process and several other tasks are duplicated.








I never enabled Full Software Control in iCUE.



Fry178 said:


> still, after clean install of win just install chipset, reboot, nvme driver, reboot and then checking stuff before installing other stuff would be advised.
> are you in "advanced" mode for bios? you can turn off the full screen logo, usually prevents you from seeing bios/system info.


will do it very clean next time 
I disabled the full screen logo now. Now I see the post screen for a couple of sec and than the windows logo also only shortly. the very long time of black hole before the login screen remains though and I still have almost a minute boot time.

As I mentioned above, I found fast boot in the system and it was enabled already.



TheLostSwede said:


> Tips for screenshots. In Windows, press the Print Scr button (above the Ins key) will take a full screen screenshot. Hold down Alt (on the left side) and Prnt Scr and you take one of the active window. In the UEFI, if you have a FAT32 formatted USB drive plugged in, you can press something like F12 (varies between board makers) to take screenshots that are then saved to the USB drive.


sry about the process smartphone screen, I was working on my working comp and needed to be quick.
I have now screenshoted some bios windows. It all seems normal to me, after all it is the default settings now. The only things I changed now after loading defaults is switching off the 2.5ghz lan controller and other things I won't need.

I'm just gonna throw all sceenshots in this thread, probably you can see something I can't::

oh look, my CPU can be cold for once (had it turned off for an hour before I went into bios.
I have noticed this screen digi+ for the first time, never touched it







This one is on "other OS", dunno if it is correct.








It is on Auto, could it be a reason for my bad SSD performance?







In this screen, I never touched anything. I did the ram tuning in AI Tweaker, there is no difference right?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 11, 2020)

I see you managed to work out how to grab much improved screenshots   


ecopsorn said:


> This one is on "other OS", dunno if it is correct.
> View attachment 154759


That's correct.


ecopsorn said:


> It is on Auto, could it be a reason for my bad SSD performance?
> View attachment 154763
> View attachment 154764


You can try setting it to GEN 3 just to make sure.
Also did you try running a Device Self Test just to check it doesn't throw up any errors?


ecopsorn said:


> In this screen, I never touched anything. I did the ram tuning in AI Tweaker, there is no difference right?
> View attachment 154765


Actually, this is where you would manually set the Infinity Fabric ratio, IF you go above 3600MHz at some point in the future.
But no, you don't need to set up the memory timings here, as the settings in AI Tweaker are duplicated here. This whole sub-menu is tied in with what you'd see when using AMD Ryzen Master in Windows, hence why it has to be there. This should be more or less identical on all X570 boards.

This isn't solving your boot time issues as such, but it would be interesting to see if it has any affect at all on boot times. Have a look see if Turn on fast start-up is enabled. If it's ticked, try turning it off to see if anything changes, as some people have apparently had issues with this option, but it's a shot in the dark.








						Turn On or Off Fast Startup in Windows 10
					

How to Turn On or Off Fast Startup in Windows 10




					www.tenforums.com


----------



## ecopsorn (May 11, 2020)

@TheLostSwede
I set it to GEN 3, no difference. I ran self test in bios, no errors, I run smart self test and short scan in windows, no errors.
But now the SSD is also too hot...





I did partition the drive, that can't be a problem for NVMe, right?
These are the now bench results, same old bad:




As you know, I have it installed in the M2.1 slot (upper one) which sits directly under the GPU. The GPU I have doesn't spin when not under load so it gets a little hot there, that's normal.
I have read that slot 1 is controlled by CPU, slot 2 by chipset. recommended is slot 1, and somebody here mentioned that the passive cooling is good enough so I shouldn't bother.
Just don't know if I should attempt to put it in slot 2 anyway to get better temps.

As for the "Fast Startup in Windows" - tried disabling it, same results as enabled.

About the IF, I have set that one in AI Tweaker as well as I was tweaking, 1600 for a 3200 doccp profile, that's what you mean, right?

*New questions:*

Which chipset driver ya'll recommend? AMD or Asus rog strix one? I'm prepping all the things I need for the fresh install.
wait a second, as I all told you, I have the latest UEFI Bios 1408. When I go to Armoury Crate, it recommends me Bios 0804, what's going on there. Somebody already wrote in this thread that it's a shit software, should I keep it uninstalled in my clean setup?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 11, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @TheLostSwede
> I set it to GEN 3, no difference. I ran self test in bios, no errors, I run smart self test and short scan in windows, no errors.
> But now the SSD is also too hot...
> View attachment 154784
> ...



That's fine, 59 degrees is nothing for an M.2 drive, as long as it's not for extended periods of time, as then it'll thermal throttle.
It's quite hard to thermal throttle Samsung drives though.








						Samsung 970 EVO 500 GB Review
					

The Samsung 970 EVO is the company's offering for users who want the blazing speeds of NVMe, but aren't willing to pay premium for the 970 Pro. Read speeds of the 970 EVO match the 970 Pro; writes are lower, but still very good at 1.7 GB/s.




					www.techpowerup.com
				



Have a look at this. Obviously the controller doesn't like too much heat, but the flash is almost perfect around that temperature, as long as it gets to cool down after a write operation before you turn off the computer.








						The Truth About SSD Data Retention
					






					www.anandtech.com
				




You worry a bit too much about some things. My WD Black SSD hits 60-65 degrees during benchmarking, so relax.

Partitioning it shouldn't affect the performance.

Can you try this, for a laugh?








						CrystalDiskMark
					

About CrystalDiskMark CrystalDiskMark is a simple disk benchmark software. Download Standard Edition Shizuku Edition System Requirements OS Windows XP/Vista/7/8/8.1/10/11Windows Server 2003/2008/2012/2016/2019/2022 Architecture x86/x64/ARM64 Installer does not support Windows XP/2003 (NT5.x)...



					crystalmark.info
				




I wouldn't bother messing with the SSD, it's fine where it is.

Ok, it was worth a try.

You don't need to manually change the IF speed, unless you go over 3600MHz. It's handled by the UEFI/AGESA if you don't, so leave it on auto for now.

Always install the drivers from AMD/Intel/chip maker, as the motherboard makers are notoriously bad when it comes to putting up new drivers on their sites.

Don't use that crappy armoury crate thing, it's bloatware and might actually be one of the things that slows down your system. 1408 is what you want to use. 0804 is from July last year, so that's a really, really old UEFI, don't touch that one.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 11, 2020)

hehe @TheLostSwede , of course I gotta worry too much, my PC is crap .

here we go:




thanks, will only install from AMD than.
But how can I install AI Suite 3 without crate, I thought that one is part of it.. gotta google it. I need AI tuner for the fan curves, let me know if there's a better way to adjust.

gotta sign off, see ya tmrw.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (May 11, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> And a tip, in the UEFI, if you look under Hot Keys, there's an option to take screenshots in the UEF straight to a FAT32 formatted USB drive.


I always wondered how ppl did this!


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 11, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> hehe @TheLostSwede , of course I gotta worry too much, my PC is crap .
> 
> here we go:
> View attachment 154802
> ...


Ok, CrystalDiskMark looks ok-ish. Writes are still low and the RND4K Q1T1 aren't great, so it's not just the Samsung benchmark that's messed up. I just wanted to double verify this.

All downloads for your motherboard are here





						ROG Strix X570-E Gaming | ROG Strix X570-E Gaming | Gaming Motherboards｜ROG - Republic of Gamers｜ROG Global
					

AMD Ryzen 3000 series ATX motherboard with Aura Sync, WiFi 6(802.11ax), 2.5G LAN, Intel 1G LAN, Dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 with heatsinks, SupremeFX and USB 3.2 Gen 2



					www.asus.com
				



Look under Utilities and it's a 165MB download separate from the Armoury Crate.
Neither are needed installs though and you can set the fan curve in the UEFI, using QFan Control.


----------



## Fry178 (May 12, 2020)

@TheLostSwede
only 7 would need to run with "other OS", 8.1/10 need uefi or bios cant talk to the gpt drives.
even if installing on a usb3 only rig, that only needs CSM enable (and can usually be turned off after install finished).

@ecopsorn
set anything for "calibration/capabilities" on the power stuff to optimal/optimized/asus if its available.
on my asus boards i've seen that auto sometimes allows stuff that goes past what is need/should be.
e.g. allowed voltages/currents were way higher even that i didn't oc.

before you do the clean install i would set those things, and disable fastboot (at least during install of win),
and switch other OS to UEFI.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Ok, CrystalDiskMark looks ok-ish. Writes are still low and the RND4K Q1T1 aren't great, so it's not just the Samsung benchmark that's messed up. I just wanted to double verify this.
> 
> All downloads for your motherboard are here
> 
> ...



regarding the SSD bench, so let's wait it up until I have a fresh install and do the benchmark again. I'd like to know in the end whether I should accept it or have another piece of hardware that I need to send back
Thanks I knew the link to the mobo, but I didn't expand the utilities tab haha. I will first try without it. Ofc I also know that the fans can be adjusted in bios, but I thought it to be more convenient in windows. But once it is set, I won't touch it anyway anymore.
Another reason why I had it installed is because I wanted to see whether I can adjust the PCH fan, which is not possible. The PCH fan is at 2800-3300rpm constantly and it is the loudest fan in my system, so I was trying to find a way to control that fan. There are somewhere bios "adaptations" that make it possible to control the fan, but to be honest, giving my current state that nothing works as it should, it is probably the best not to mess with that... If you have any suggestion how to handle this otherwise, let me know



Fry178 said:


> @ecopsorn
> set anything for "calibration/capabilities" on the power stuff to optimal/optimized/asus if its available.
> on my asus boards i've seen that auto sometimes allows stuff that goes past what is need/should be.
> e.g. allowed voltages/currents were way higher even that i didn't oc.
> ...



thanks, will do that. But where do you mean in regards to "calibration/capabilities", in Bios or somewhere in windows? As I said, in windows I had selected the Ryzen Balanced power plan as it is everywhere suggested to be the best powerplan for ryzen 3000.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 12, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> regarding the SSD bench, so let's wait it up until I have a fresh install and do the benchmark again. I'd like to know in the end whether I should accept it or have another piece of hardware that I need to send back
> Thanks I knew the link to the mobo, but I didn't expand the utilities tab haha. I will first try without it. Ofc I also know that the fans can be adjusted in bios, but I thought it to be more convenient in windows. But once it is set, I won't touch it anyway anymore.
> Another reason why I had it installed is because I wanted to see whether I can adjust the PCH fan, which is not possible. The PCH fan is at 2800-3300rpm constantly and it is the loudest fan in my system, so I was trying to find a way to control that fan. There are somewhere bios "adaptations" that make it possible to control the fan, but to be honest, giving my current state that nothing works as it should, it is probably the best not to mess with that... If you have any suggestion how to handle this otherwise, let me know


I'm surprised the chipset fan is the loudest one and in fact, that it's spinning at all. Mine doesn't spin at all during regular use. I also have an option in the UEFI to set it to quiet mode.

The rest, I guess we'll see.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 12, 2020)

I just did a 3600/x570 strix E build and I couldn't hear the chipset fan either over TT RGB plus 120mm fans running at 6-800rpm

I also can't hear it on my Hero VIII.

On my aorus master it was off at all times except during boot.



I've been keeping and eye on your thread and got to say it's a shame you're having so many issues I've had zero with the 3600/strix E combo all stock out of the box other than XMP with a crappy 3000 nighthawk kit (person's previous PC died in a power surge) and it just has a cheap mx500 boot drive. Boot time was around 11-12 seconds which is around the same as my hero VIII with an Nvme drive and slightly faster than the aorus master with the same drive.



I would try and reflash the bios assuming you haven't already. 

On my z390 code a couple bios revisions ago I was having similar problems to what you're describing at boot and a fresh bios install fixed it.


----------



## las (May 12, 2020)

3200/C16 memory is a big no no for Ryzen. You will loose 5-15% gaming perf.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I'm surprised the chipset fan is the loudest one and in fact, that it's spinning at all. Mine doesn't spin at all during regular use. I also have an option in the UEFI to set it to quiet mode.
> 
> The rest, I guess we'll see.


damn, too bad I can't adjust it



oxrufiioxo said:


> I just did a 3600/x570 strix E build and I couldn't hear the chipset fan either over TT RGB plus 120mm fans running at 6-800rpm
> 
> I also can't hear it on my Hero VIII.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input, yeah I'm very unlucky. I'm starting with the ram now and clean windows but a highly doubt that when I have fixed both, all problems are solved. There seems to bee too much wrong with my rig.

For the bios, what I did when I bought at all the parts is first thing updated the bios to 1407 (before very first windows install). I'm sure that I had these issues back than already on 1407 because I want have noticed a boot time of 20 or less sec.
Only a week ago I upgraded to 1408 and than I started slowly to question it all. As I wrote in the thread, there is not only the major issue of boot time, almost every bench I ran in the system gives crappy results. GPU bench, Cinebench, RamBench incl. delay of 83ns, and now even SSD bench. Nobody in the thread pointed out yet that my mobo could be faulty, so I'm taking things slow and start with the ram (where we have proof that the sticks I had were crap, so I gonna sell them).

For the Bios flash, to what version of the bios would the flash be advised? I think I never have than a bios flash, the only thing I did with this rig is plenty of times a CMOS reset with the jumper solution.


----------



## LifeOnMars (May 12, 2020)

@las

Unless you're gaming at 4K. I lose nothing with my setup and I just have 3200/C16 Micron E Ballistix, but yes, at lower resolutions it does make a difference. That said, I tested my sticks at 3600/c16 1080p just out of curiosity and they were still good lol.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

I'm gaming at 2560x1440 - 165Hz on my main screen and got 2 side monitors at 1920x1200


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 12, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> For the Bios flash, to what version of the bios would the flash be advised? I think I never have than a bios flash, the only thing I did with this rig is plenty of times a CMOS reset with the jumper solution.



i would start with the previous bios see if it behaves the same or if it behaves slightly better I would also unplug all drives other than the boot drive. If nothing changes re flash the latest bios. If you have an empty sata ssd I would also install windows on it with all other drives removed just to see if you have the same boot issue.


----------



## thesmokingman (May 12, 2020)

I have the same board and am scratching my head how your board needs this much tweaking? For ex. your m.2 sits at 59c whereas both of mine are at 31c.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 12, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> I have the same board and am scratching my head how your board needs this much tweaking? For ex. your m.2 sits at 59c whereas both of mine are at 31c.


That was not idle, that was after benchmarking it.


----------



## thesmokingman (May 12, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> That was not idle, that was after benchmarking it.



Peak temp after Crystal is still under 40c though.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

I didn't change a thing and get better results now:



I also have no idea why my temps are so low now compared to last time
Benching in fact didn't raise the temp by a single degree now.

I ran two benches in a row, the first one you see results above, the second one had almost same results, except write which was at 2890, wtf


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 12, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> I didn't change a thing and get better results now:
> View attachment 154925
> I also have no idea why my temps are so low now compared to last time
> Benching in fact didn't raise the temp by a single degree now.
> ...


Sequential speeds are spot on now.
Sadly you're still only getting about a quarter of the IOPS you should be seeing, assuming that's 4KB, QD32.
Sure, it's up to figures, but 150k-ish is way slow for that drive.

Random Read Speed
Random Read (4KB, QD32): Up to 600,000 IOPS; Random Read (4KB, QD1): Up to 19,000 IOPS * Performance may vary based on system hardware & configuration
Random Write Speed
Random Write (4KB, QD32): Up to 550,000 IOPS; Random Write (4KB, QD1): Up to 60,000 IOPS * Performance may vary based on system hardware & configuration








						SSD 970 EVO Plus NVMe® M.2 1 TB Memory & Storage - MZ-V7S1T0B/AM | Samsung US
					

Discover the latest features and innovations available in the SSD 970 EVO Plus NVMe® M.2 1 TB. Find the perfect Memory & Storage for you!




					www.samsung.com
				






thesmokingman said:


> Peak temp after Crystal is still under 40c though.


You're lucky then, as neither of my two NVMe drive stay that cool after five runs of CrystalDiskMark.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

@TheLostSwede  hope I can get the IOPS up there as well somehow, probably gonna get another one and raid 0 that shit and show off here haha, just joking 

by the way, ram should arrive before the weekend. Do u think I should get windows cleaned before I install the new ram or shall I put in the ram with the current win install so we can continue troubleshooting?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 12, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @TheLostSwede  hope I can get the IOPS up there as well somehow, probably gonna get another one and raid 0 that shit and show off here haha, just joking
> 
> by the way, ram should arrive before the weekend. Do u think I should get windows cleaned before I install the new ram or shall I put in the ram with the current win install so we can continue troubleshooting?


I thought you were doing the fresh install regardless?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I thought you were doing the fresh install regardless?


Yes of course but the question is whether I should do it with the current ram already or if I should wait until I put the new ones in?


----------



## moproblems99 (May 12, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Yes of course but the question is whether I should do it with the current ram already or if I should wait until I put the new ones in?



The ram takes seconds to put in.  I would put it in and see what happens.  That way you know right off if the ram had any effect.


----------



## Fry178 (May 12, 2020)

@LifeOnMars
lol, you will have a performance loss ANYTIME your not running ram at 3600, as IF clocks go down with it,
lowering overall performance.
e.g. high load on the cpu/ram would be hurting, and its not limited to (4K) gaming,
so unless your reading only pdf's all day, 3600 for ram is best.

@ecopsorn
would really be surprised if your board has no fan controls, as even the low end msi i got had it.
check all tabs the bios offers, might be called different than PCH fan.
setting it to balanced/silent usually is enough.

and yes, install ram first before installing win again.
maybe run one (full) test with memtest, just to see if xmp/docp/spd  settings dont get you any errors.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 12, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> The ram takes seconds to put in.  I would put it in and see what happens.  That way you know right off if the ram had any effect.



yeah thought so, too - like this I can rerun all tests, report back and than format C 



Fry178 said:


> @ecopsorn
> would really be surprised if your board has no fan controls, as even the low end msi i got had it.
> check all tabs the bios offers, might be called different than PCH fan.
> setting it to balanced/silent usually is enough.
> ...



nah the board really doesn’t have PCH fan control, it is also being discussed in the rog strix forums. There is only a custom bios flash around I din’t wanna try.

you mean memtest with the bew or old ram? With the old ones I ran one over night once and it all passed


----------



## Fry178 (May 12, 2020)

@ecopsorn 
yeah, sorry, just read it myself. but seems to be a possible future ioption, as someone analyzed the bios and saw entries regarding pch fan control.

the new sticks. just to see that you don't have any errors coming up before you start messing with other stuff/install OS.
but i would still run the new ones for a few days on the old install first, just to see what happens.

@TheLostSwede 
quote from a review for that board:
The Delta-made chipset fan remained inaudible throughout testing, which is just as well, as there didn't appear to be any way to tweak its speed ...

seems to be the case with all x570 asus boards. glad i found it out, getting an msi then.


----------



## thesmokingman (May 12, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> nah the board really doesn’t have PCH fan control, it is also being discussed in the rog strix forums. There is only a custom bios flash around I din’t wanna try.
> 
> you mean memtest with the bew or old ram? With the old ones I ran one over night once and it all passed



You can hear your chipset fan? Mine is silent or that is cannot be heard while the rest of the fans in the case are on.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 13, 2020)

@ecopsorn, I don't recall but did you ever run sfc and other diagnostics from windows?


----------



## Fry178 (May 13, 2020)

having installed with the bios set to other instead of uefi probably messed it up anyway.
never got a machine to run properly if it was set that way (with 10).


----------



## ecopsorn (May 13, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> You can hear your chipset fan? Mine is silent or that is cannot be heard while the rest of the fans in the case are on.



Actually the fan noise problem got much better with same RPM. When I reapplied the CPU cooler a couple of days ago, I opened up the PCH fan cover. It looked all normal underneath but I didn't tighten the screws up all the way when putting the cover on again, probably that was already the trick.



moproblems99 said:


> @ecopsorn, I don't recall but did you ever run sfc and other diagnostics from windows?



Actually I didn't, I have never done this for any computer haha. I did run the sfc now though and all is good, no errors.
I also ran memtest and cpu stresstests and I didn't get errors any any of those.



Fry178 said:


> having installed with the bios set to other instead of uefi probably messed it up anyway.
> never got a machine to run properly if it was set that way (with 10).



wait a second, didn't @TheLostSwede say that "Other OS" is correct?
In any case, I'm gonna follow this guide as provided by @birdie - when I do the reinstall.

Rams should arrive today, please let them perform lol


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 13, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> wait a second, didn't @TheLostSwede say that "Other OS" is correct?
> In any case, I'm gonna follow this guide as provided by @birdie - when I do the reinstall.
> 
> Rams should arrive today, please let them perform lol


In my experience, Windows UEFI mode is only needed when you use secure boot. Unfortunately I can't check what setting I'm using, but I'm pretty sure it's Other OS and I haven't had any issues. I guess you can try either or and see if it makes a difference.

Fingers crossed the new RAM solves the majority of problems.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 13, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Fingers crossed the new RAM solves the majority of problems.


ram is a little delayed, hope to get it before weekend anyway.



ecopsorn said:


> It is quoting time again! I've learned so much the last couple of days. I'm confident we get my rig fixed, hell I'd even consider switching out the CPU and board now lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this question is still open, what do you guys think about the case cooling concept? should I change it or is my new suggestion crap?


----------



## moproblems99 (May 13, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> this question is still open, what do you guys think about the case cooling concept? should I change it or is my new suggestion crap?



Bad idea.  Use as follows:

Front: Intake
Bottom: Intake

Rear: Exhaust
Top: Exhaust


----------



## ecopsorn (May 13, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Bad idea.  Use as follows:
> 
> Front: Intake
> Bottom: Intake
> ...



ok thanks, this is how I have it setup already


----------



## SomeOne99h (May 13, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Front: Intake
> Bottom: Intake
> 
> Rear: Exhaust
> Top: Exhaust


What if there is no bottom fans (Case doesn't support it)? Just front, rear and top.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 13, 2020)

SomeOne99h said:


> What if there is no bottom fans (Case doesn't support it)? Just front, rear and top.



Yep, if any of those don't exist, use others as labeled.


----------



## Fry178 (May 14, 2020)

Sorry guys, "other os" is for 7 and lower, and has to do with partition table supported. Why would you want new hw and os to run with older and less secure settings?
So unless you want to install 7 or older OS (mbr), it needs to be on uefi (gpt).
Make sure to select/format gpt for any drives you add (later) on etc.
Csm should usually be turned off, but some boards require it (my Gb changes moni res to 720, so you can leave it on.
Secure boot can be of/disabled, same for boot devices, only storage needs to be set (uefi, legacy rom as secondary). network/other pci can be set to disabled.

But only change those things when your ready to install again,  or win will not boot.


----------



## fwiler (May 14, 2020)

I had to register and comment because I see so much bad information.

1.  Fry178 is correct.  You want UEFI Windows boot.  Other OS is going to add 15-20 seconds boot time, it's called legacy boot in older BIOS'.  There's plenty of benchmarks online to show the difference.
2.  All other settings default.
3.  Put you hard drive in the lower slot.  Just to remove the slot as a potential issue.
4.  You will have to re-install Windows, and judging by your task manager you should anyway.  You have way too many unnecessary programs running.
5.  Do not attach anything else besides keyboard, mouse, and monitor.
6.  Once installed- Update Windows, over and over again until it's done.  When you think it's done, check again.
7.  Install AMD driver only.  DO NOT install the listed RAID driver they have.
8.  Do not install any Asus utility, Corsair, mouse, screen, etc.
9.  I recommend installing nvidia graphics driver, some others may not at this point, but I believe it helps in diagnosing other issues.
10.  Check device manager to make sure there is no bangs next to hardware
10.  I recommend installing Ryzen Master, only because I like the interface and it's easy to read.  This is up to you.
11.  REMOVE the side of your case to remove that as an issue for temps.  Your temps are WAY too high.  I'm idle with same processor and heatsink at 34c and 70c full load.
12.  Install Cinebench and give results.

I can't be sure, and no one can, but from every description and 20 years experience, it sounds like a bad motherboard, or bad power delivery.  But by percentage numbers, a motherboard is more likely than other issues.

If and only if things look ok, then you can worry about ram timings and speed.
If you still have a really long boot time, and your temps are still high, I would imagine a bad motherboard.  Very very slim chance it's the cpu.


----------



## Fry178 (May 14, 2020)

And with the rig running under load, less likely the psu.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 14, 2020)

@fwiler thanks so much. Here is some response



fwiler said:


> I had to register and comment because I see so much bad information.
> 
> 1.  Fry178 is correct.  You want UEFI Windows boot.  Other OS is going to add 15-20 seconds boot time, it's called legacy boot in older BIOS'.  There's plenty of benchmarks online to show the difference.
> 2.  All other settings default.
> ...



To 1.) Good to know, is the guide  that was recommended what I should follow when I reinstall?
To 3.) Will try that
To 4.) I'm gonna provide a list soon on the programs I'm planning to install. But to be honest, 10-15 years ago I had way way more crap on my computer and everything was running better than today haha. I'm already pretty cautious installing stuff
To 5.) oh oh, will do so, I have all 7 USB slots in use and had everything plugged in when I installed windows
To 6.) that's exactly what I did in my 2 windows install on the current rig. First launch windows, perform update, restart, updates, restart until really all is done, than install chipset driver, gpu driver, antivirus and all else
To 7.) will do, don't have the raid driver installed now either
To 10.) To be honest Ryzen Master was the one software I thought I skip haha because it interfers with iCUE. Once Ryzen Master ist started, ICUE looses the commander pro fan options (there's a youtube video showing the scenario, I'm at work and can't link it right now). It wouldn't be bad cause I can still use iCUE when I don't use master, but just wanted to mention it.
Ryzen master however seems to show the most accuarte cpu temp reading.
To 11.) I had it removed plenty of times during testing. I switched off the computer overnight and started this morning and immediately opened hwinfo. These are the readings 3-5min. after starting windows from a cold boot and cold pc - doesn't it look ridiculous? I have no idea what temp2 and 5 are on there, but nothing should be that hot after a cold boot. So I can reapply thermal paste to my CPU all day long, but that isn't the issue here. Just for additional info, my current room temperature is about 22°C.





and these are my case temps according to iCUE - got 4 sensors attached to it:
keep in mind that I currently have the side of the case open, but the temps look similar when case is closed.
The lower case temp gets up to around 43°C when the computer is running for a while at idle and my GPU fans don't spin because they are not under load, but that I think is perfectly normal.





so to sum it up: The rams should hopefully arrive before this weekend so I can start with new ram and new windows. Before that I'm gonna post the programs I'm gonna install and my exact strategy.
For comparison reasons, should I only bench with cinebench or should I run something else like an AIDA64 bench or any other one of the thousands available?


----------



## Fry178 (May 14, 2020)

I personally don't update win (first, before driver install) since the 1903 release (has support for ryzen 3xxx series).
Install win, shutdown once you land on the desktop after install finished.
change bios to UEFI (from "other OS" and change any entry that's related to "legacy/bios", to uefi,
or uefi first then legacy rom (e.g. pci/network)
install chipset driver, reboot and install all other drivers (usb/audio) etc, each with a reboot in between.
dont worry about ryzen master, if you're not using any of its features, as everything can be done in bios.

install the 1usmus power plan, set min cpu state to 0% (so the cpu still down clocks and lowers V/Temps a bit),
no need to have 8c boost to +4ghz because your reading a pdf  

a good tool to "tweak" win a bit more towards ssd/nvme is ssd-fresh (free).
ssd fresh


----------



## fwiler (May 14, 2020)

1. That guide may be specific for one user case and one type of nvme with specific firmware.  But I've never had to take those steps because my bios has never had an issue seeing the nvme drives.  Meaning you shouldn't have to start install with 'other OS' BIOS setting and then change to UEFI later.  That doesn't make sense to me and not sure the context of that post.

4. This may not be software related and the programs you installed may be fine, but you have to remove those variables for now.  It may only take one program (like icue or anti-virus) in combination with another to screw up everything.  Do not install these until you have a stable system.  Then you add what you want, one at a time.  You may be surprised how much you don't need if you run clean for awhile.

10.  I only suggested ryzen master to show actual speed, temps, voltage.  You can replace with cpu-z. hwinfo is known to be aggressive in reporting and causes cpu to spike, so does not show correct idle state and voltages of cpu.   After starting cpu-z or ryzen master your idle should go to < 1.0V.  Your screenshot shows voltage of 1.39 which is fine, but it should be under that at idle.

11. The temp5 reading on those boards has been reported before and no one knows what the reading is.  I wouldn't worry about it now.  Some have shown that an undervolt will bring temp down 10-20c but I'm not 100% convinced it has to do with vrm.  It looks like your case is fine then, and you can ignore taking off the side.


----------



## Fry178 (May 14, 2020)

@fwiler
If you have a usb 3 only rig, it's the only way to install 7 for example.
and most will need CSM/legacy to be on (so to boot from the stick and start install 10), then switch to UEFI so to run gpt/M2 drives,
just cause "YOU" don't need it, doesn't mean that's the case for everyone.   
my advice to change it, comes from the fact that the current install was done with "other OS" set in bios, which is the "wrong" setting for HW/OS used.

@ecopsorn
look at aida64 to replace hwinfo.
runs fine on any machine i installed it in the past 15y (like to monitor hw after build/repair/install to verify all is ok),
and they offer a trial.
reports clocks/V/temps for ryzen without trouble for the past couple release already.

AIDA64


----------



## ecopsorn (May 14, 2020)

Thanks both.
I have AIDA64, even with a licence but I only used it for benching so far. There seem to be very limited sensor data readouts. I might just not have found it yet though.
and - THE RAMS ARRIVED!!! - busy today but probably I can give them a spin today


----------



## fwiler (May 14, 2020)

@Fry178 
"If you have a usb 3 only rig, it's the only way to install 7 for example.
and most will need CSM/legacy to be on (so to boot from the stick and start install 10), then switch to UEFI so to run gpt/M2 drives,
just cause "YOU" don't need it, doesn't mean that's the case for everyone."

I understand that, but that's not the case here or in the link he sent.  I looked into it more and it was a firmware issue with that particular nvme drive which the company has sense corrected.
I don't know of any recent board that requires legacy to be on to boot from usb to install Win10.  Like you said, only older OS that doesn't support UEFI.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 14, 2020)

*Back with new ram - G.Skill TridentZ Royal - 3600C16Q-32GTRS (CL16-16-16-36 1.35V - 8GBx4)*

Before I installed ram, I ran Cinebench again with a cold computer - I manually disabled some background processes for all runs listed below
1st run: Default Bios - PBO deactivated - no DOCCP --> 4195pts
2nd run: Default Bios - PBO deactivated - DOCCP enabled --> 4528pts
Than I shut down computer and 2h later exchanged the ram

1st run: Default Bios - PBO deactivated - no DOCCP --> 4528pts
2nd run: Default Bios - PBO deactivated - DOCCP enabled = 3600 CL16-16-16-36 1.35V --> *4253pts*
I couldn't believe that the number is lower, so I re-ran Cinebench right after it and it spit out 4587pts, so 334pts difference between two adjacent runs 
Here is the AIDA64 bench (latency looks better as well as all other stats, for comparison reason I put the one of the old ram in there as well):






Here's the full Thaiphoon readout of first ram slot:




Now back to you guys, what does it tell me?


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2020)

You have really low write speed.

Additionally, your large changes from run to run are likely from background processes.


----------



## fwiler (May 14, 2020)

You are relying on an automatic method (DOCP) which itself is a translation of XMP, from a motherboard manufacturer for memory that it may not be able to read correctly, which means it doesn't always equate to better performance. 
If all of your other issues aren't taken care of then I really wouldn't worry about scores in cinebench right now.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 14, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> You have really low write speed.


It's a 3800X, so that's normal, only the 39xx models have improved write speeds.
He has also done ZERO tuning of the RAM.
That's said, it's hardly impressive with those kind of timings.


----------



## xman2007 (May 14, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> You have really low write speed.
> 
> Additionally, your large changes from run to run are likely from background processes.


Standard for Zen 3000 series


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> It's a 3800X, so that's normal, only the 39xx models have improved write speeds.
> He has also done ZERO tuning of the RAM.
> That's said, it's hardly impressive with those kind of timings.



I thought the lower write speeds were only for single rank and two slots.  I must be confused with dual ccx or something.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 14, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I thought the lower write speeds were only for single rank and two slots.  I must be confused with dual ccx or something.


Yeah, you need two CCDs to get higher write speeds.
That said, he has a lot of tweaking to do, as this is what I get, admittedly at higher clocks, but with worse timings.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 14, 2020)

@ecopsorn Here's a result for 3600 16-19-21 on a single chiplet CPU like your own. Your 3600 16-16-16-36 kit should have far better latency than the 70ns showing you've posted. Read, write and copy are roughly where they should be, though very slightly on the low side, considering the Royal is B-die with good timings.

3900X takes a slight hit to AIDA latency due to two chiplets, but yours is a 3800X and has no excuse. Go into BIOS and find Power Down Mode for the memory (either under the memory section or some overclocking menu) and make sure it's disabled.

From experience with AIDA64 and CB in particular, I maintain that the cause of the wild score fluctuation is due to the smorgasbord of background processes that are occasionally doing their thing during your benchmarks. Personally, I have a large Dropbox, and having the Dropbox program running in the background is the Achilles heel of CB and AIDA. It will easily add up to 1ns of latency in either membench or AIDA and a penalty of up to 100pts in CB if I have it open. And that's just 1 program.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 14, 2020)

fwiler said:


> You are relying on an automatic method (DOCP) which itself is a translation of XMP, from a motherboard manufacturer for memory that it may not be able to read correctly, which means it doesn't always equate to better performance.
> If all of your other issues aren't taken care of then I really wouldn't worry about scores in cinebench right now.


Sure, well I did the tests now and the plan is to move forward now tomorrow, putting the nvme in the second slot format the whole drive and disable fast boot for win install and select uefi os.

as discussed, will do testing after it and than we can discuss further wether I need a new mobo as well


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 14, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Sure, well I did the tests now and the plan is to move forward now tomorrow, putting the nvme in the second slot format the whole drive and disable fast boot for win install and select uefi os.
> 
> as discussed, will do testing after it and than we can discuss further wether I need a new mobo as well


Keep in mind that if you move the SSD, you've spent that thermal pad, assuming you're using the heatsink that comes with the motherboard.
I seriously doubt that is the issue though.
Just as a silly thing, you did remove the plastic on the thermal pad before putting the heatsink on the SSD?


----------



## Fry178 (May 14, 2020)

@fwiler
what i wanted to state was, that there ARE reasons for changing settings in bios before/after install,
just because you never needed to, doesn't mean there are none.
And in this case, there are some "wrong" settings in use, so changes need to be made prior clean install.


@moproblems99
as others said, anything below 3900 will have about half the write speed compared to read/copy.

@TheLostSwede
didn't have any problems moving nvme's around, no matter if the MSI boards,
or my existing GB, even with the plastic film removed.
As long as you're careful removing it, shouldn't be a problem reusing it.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 14, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @TheLostSwede
> didn't have any problems moving nvme's around, no matter if the MSI boards,
> or my existing GB, even with the plastic film removed.
> As long as you're careful removing it, shouldn't be a problem reusing it.



But it's spent thermal interface material, it's not something you're supposed to re-use, as it's been degraded from use...
That's not the same as being able to do something.


----------



## Fry178 (May 15, 2020)

lol, what?
the pad doesn't lose its performance because its been used.
it might not be sticky anymore, but thats about it.
i haven't seen any gaps when i installed drives from 5 different brands, nor did it affect temps.
i even used aftermarket pads (most MB only have beatsink/tp on first slot) which were not even sticky, and still lowered temps (vs no heatsink).
same for any other thermal pad i have seen for purchase, stating to be reusable.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 15, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Just as a silly thing, you did remove the plastic on the thermal pad before putting the heatsink on the SSD?



I hope so lol, I'm not 100% sure since it is my first nvme install but I'd hit myself if I haven't  - won't solve all problems though.
I'm a couple of hours away from wiping it all, waiting for the backup to be copied to my server.

wish me luck guys!

wasn't able to wipe it yet, wife hat other plans for today, but tomorrow is set.

What I did notice now, that I probably never heard the PCH fan, it is the PSU fan. It is rare that it turns on, but that thing is the loudest fan in the case when it is. Is there any way I can see that fans speed and why would that thing turn on while I'm browsing and watching youtube?

and another temp. screenshot before I go to sleep: I was watching youtube and browsing for 3h:

EDIT: sorry my bad: I was copying stuff to my server for the last 4h as well


----------



## Fry178 (May 16, 2020)

it goea by temps and turns on once you reach a certain threshold.
couple people reported lower temps/less noise after removing the cover..


----------



## Totally (May 16, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> lol, what?
> the pad doesn't lose its performance because its been used.



Issue lies with deformation not degradation. When the pad is applied it gets squished. When you peel it off, it stays squished. Do you now understand?


----------



## Fry178 (May 16, 2020)

please show which post has that word, or why would i talk about degradation if someone mentioned deformation? right.

all pads i've seen/had worked on are not like paste, and removed from the board i would have guessed they were reusable aftermarket pads,
as they resemble the stuff every pc shop sells.
i have swapped drives on 3 different pads/boards (Gb and MSI), and MULTIPLE times on 1 board, NONE "squished" or unusable.
how many have you reused that were squished past use?

theory doesnt always transfer into reality.


----------



## Totally (May 16, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> please show which post has that word, or why would i talk about degradation if someone mentioned deformation? right.
> 
> all pads i've seen/had worked on are not like paste, and removed from the board i would have guessed they were reusable aftermarket pads,
> as they resemble the stuff every pc shop sells.
> ...



*degrade: *to lower to an inferior or less effective level  



Fry178 said:


> lose its performance because its been used.


 
"the pad doesn't degrade because its been used." i.o.w

Deformation which leads to poor contact is the problem why thermal pads generally are why not reused. I'm assuming that was implicit to what lostswede was stating.

Can't answer that I don't swap out drives unless they die on me and I haven't had one die in  6 years. As for others I almost always replace, If I can see an imprint it gets replaced.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

So I’m starting reinstalling now and testing.
Left the nvme in the slot 1 so far.

already a great start... windows started , first windows update cycle done, can’t press the windows button anymore - had to restart

anyway - let me report the bootup time before I run another windows update:

CSM always disabled

PBO disabled - DOCCP 3600 pro

Fast boot disabled / UEFI OS = 23s total (19s until windows sign - 4s later in windows
Fast boot enabled / UEFI OS = 17s
PBO disabled - No DOCCP

Fast boot disabled / UEFI OS = 20s
Fast boot enabled / UEFI OS = 14s


So boot times seem to be fine so far?

what is not fine is a 47degree CPU in bios

gonna disable fast boot for further installation and report benches


----------



## thesmokingman (May 16, 2020)

xman2007 said:


> Standard for Zen 3000 series



Not accurate, but its true for single core chiplet die, ie. 3800x and below. Move up to dual CCD and writes are doubled.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

Oh nice - got an 8d post code now - f me


----------



## Fry178 (May 16, 2020)

if you need to redo it, install WITH csm on, leave it on.

turn docp off, but set clock/main timings and voltage for ram manually.
check what voltage is applied to SoC as well..


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Oh nice - got an 8d post code now - f me


Memory parity error... That's not good news.
Did you set the Voltage to 1.35V when you put in the new modules?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

*Cinebench Score Updates:*

4891pts - only windows update - default nvidia - default chipset - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - no doccp
4928pts - only windows update - default nvidia - default chipset - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - doccp enabled
4910pts - only windows update - default nvidia - default chipset - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - manual 16-16-16-36 @ 1.35v
4942pts - only windows update - default nvidia - *chipset updated* - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - manual 16-16-16-36 @ 1.35v
4924pts - only windows update - *nvidia driver updated* - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - manual 16-16-16-36 @ 1.35v
4904pts - only windows update - *nvme Samsung driver updated & AIDA64 installed* - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - manual 16-16-16-36 @ 1.35v
4923pts - only windows update - BT+wifi driver update+samsung magician install - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - manual 16-16-16-36 @ 1.35v



TheLostSwede said:


> Memory parity error... That's not good news.
> Did you set the Voltage to 1.35V when you put in the new modules?



when doccp is disabled voltage is on auto, could that be a reason? Gonna run now all benches with doccp on and off


----------



## Fry178 (May 16, 2020)

don't worry about using docp, its most likely the cause. 
do manual settings matching xmp profile incl 1.35v


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> *Cinebench Score Updates:*
> 
> 4891pts - only windows update - default nvidia - default chipset - cpu load 0
> when doccp is disabled voltage is on auto, could that be a reason? Gonna run now all benches with doccp on and off



See? That's much more like what you should be seeing.

8D code seems to be poorly documented, but all the instances I've seen relate to RAM stability. Can you run AIDA to see if your latency has changed now on the new installation?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> when doccp is disabled voltage is on auto, could that be a reason? Gonna run now all benches with doccp on and off


Yes, very much so, auto Voltage for DDR4 is 1.2V.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> don't worry about using docp, its most likely the cause.
> do manual settings matching xmp profile incl 1.35v


Should I start doing that already? For the sake of testing with and without i thought i do enable disable, but can certainly do 
—-> scratch that - will do without doccp - results are above - next up is chipset update

- gonna provide as many data as possible during the next hours - so we can have a conclusion soon - if u guys have time tell me anything I should observe



tabascosauz said:


> See? That's much more like what you should be seeing.
> 8D code seems to be poorly documented, but all the instances I've seen relate to RAM stability. Can you run AIDA to see if your latency has changed now on the new installation?



@tabascosauz yeah the 8d was likely due to the auto 1.2v as @TheLostSwede pointed out.
here are my ram readings at 3600 16-16-16-36 and 1.35v - I still have tRC on auto (currently too high I guess at 84) - not bothering yet with ram tuning


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @tabascosauz yeah the 8d was likely due to the auto 1.2v as @TheLostSwede pointed out.
> here are my ram readings at 3600 16-16-16-36 and 1.35v - I still have tRC on auto (currently too high I guess at 84) - not bothering yet with ram tuning
> View attachment 155460


Looking good, now we're in very sensible latency territory.


----------



## Devon68 (May 16, 2020)

Wait if I read this correctly. You have 2x16gb sticks of ram as in 32 gb total. Then it's normal for it to take longer to boot.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 16, 2020)

Devon68 said:


> Wait if I read this correctly. You have 2x16gb sticks of ram as in 32 gb total. Then it's normal for it to take longer to boot.


A few second maybe, not a minute.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

Devon68 said:


> Wait if I read this correctly. You have 2x16gb sticks of ram as in 32 gb total. Then it's normal for it to take longer to boot.


no, not anymore - I have 4x8 G.skills now 3600-16-16-16-32. - With the old windows install I did have the same 60sec boot time


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2020)

@ecopsorn those CB R20 runs are all within a roughly 50pt margin of error, and the scores look fine. Ryzen 3000 can be pretty unpredictable in CB R20 scores from one run to the next. How are your CPU temps and drive performance looking now?

If your load temps are still up in the 80s, there may be a bit of room for those CB scores to improve. Whether that's a worthy endeavour, I don't know. We would be talking about a few dozen points, maybe 100pts at the very most. And no noticeable gain in games. Same goes for PBO, maybe a 200pt gain at most if you are willing to spend the time to optimize your PBO parameters; nothing significant like the massive 600pt improvement from getting rid of all of that background crud.

For 16-16-16-36, the latency still seems a _tad _bit high, though absolutely no concern compared to your horrendous results before reinstalling. Can you run this program and get us a screenshot of your subtimings? https://github.com/irusanov/ZenTimings/releases


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

@TheLostSwede @tabascosauz
I've installed the nvme driver now and Samsung Magician.
Look at those values now!! - they seem alright, don't they?





here are timings - I didn't load up DRAM calc yet:




These are temps now:

IDLE (CPU temp jumps between 35 and 47 constantly right now)




Runninc CB20


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2020)

@ecopsorn entirely normal idle temperatures on the CPU, then. That's good news. Also, use HWInfo for monitoring. Load temperatures look good at 65, no issues there. Now that's what a NH-D15 is really capable of, even with just one fan.

Well, you have the rather high-end (and expensive(!)) B-die kit now, so now you can focus on working on those timings now. For good quality B-die at 3600, DRAM calc is recommending 14-15-14-30 or 14-15-14-28. The former setting has a tRFC setting of 468, which is rather loose for B-die. The latter's 288 tRFC is more in line with what B-die can do, but the former is probably a more surefire way to boot. Either is quite a bit better than the stock 630 tRFC. You could start just by lowering tRFC and seeing what the does for your latency. The RDC recommended profiles also suggest higher 1.37V.

I think 600+ tRFC usually comes in XMP alongside a 2T command rate. 600+ is really, really high, especially for B-die.

EDIT: Actually, RDC lists profiles for A0, lower quality B-die as well. Those are 16-17-16-34 and 16-17-16-32. Much closer to your XMP, and a safer place to start. Just do the tRFC for now.

Those profiles suggest 468 and 302 respectively for tRFC. Maybe give those a try.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

468 gives me error 8d when I leave the timing on 16-16-16-32
I tried 500 instead and error didn't show up. This is the Aida bench with this, and 4905pts cb20:
Bringing the latency down should help the score as well, right?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> 468 gives me error 8d when I leave the timing on 16-16-16-32
> I tried 500 instead and error didn't show up. This is the Aida bench with this, and 4905pts cb20:
> Bringing the latency down should help the score as well, right?
> View attachment 155471



If you leave HWInfo monitoring in the background for some time while you're benching, what does the DRAM voltage show under your board sensors section? Does it sometimes max out above 1.35V, does it drop below 1.35V at times?

If that's with 500 tRFC, that's already looking much healthier a latency result for B-die at 3600. It won't affect CB much, CB likes clockspeed much more than RAM speed. B-die should be doing better than that on tRFC, but if it's stable you can just leave it at that for now. Maybe give the 3600/B-die/A0/Safe profile a try with all of its timings suggestions (the 16-17-16-34 one) and see if it'll be stable.

Are the default 16-16-16-36 settings stable through other tests like P95 Large, MT86, membench?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> If you leave HWInfo monitoring in the background for some time while you're benching, what does the DRAM voltage show under your board sensors section? Does it sometimes max out above 1.35V, does it drop below 1.35V at times?
> 
> If that's with 500 tRFC, that's already looking much healthier a latency result for B-die at 3600. It won't affect CB much, CB likes clockspeed much more than RAM speed. B-die should be doing better than that on tRFC, but if it's stable you can just leave it at that for now. Maybe give the 3600/B-die/A0/Safe profile a try with all of its timings suggestions (the 16-17-16-34 one) and see if it'll be stable.
> 
> Are the default 16-16-16-36 settings stable through other tests like P95 Large, MT86, membench?


It's funny, another guy said don't use hwinfo haha.
Yes results above are with 500.
Ok, I will try the A0/Safe Profile - but can you tell me what all to enter? Just the basics (values until and incl. tRC (as well as tRFC and tRFC (alt) and the Rec. voltage? - So many ppl recommended also to adjust SOC voltage and in other forums I read that procODT is also important and I about the power/gear down mode thing I'm completely lost

EDIT: Cannot tell yet if they are stable, haven't run any long time tests yet. Do you recommend a short one to see if it's stable until I can ran a membench overnight?
EDIT2: I punched in the safe values - it did give me an 8d at first but after shutting pc down it booted normaly

Latency starting to get nice


----------



## moproblems99 (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> what is not fine is a 47degree CPU in bios



That isn't really a problem per se and I wouldn't worry about that right now.  

But good to see that everything seems to be heading in the right direction.



ecopsorn said:


> It's funny, another guy said don't use hwinfo haha.



I don't have any problems with hwinfo so not sure why not to use it.  It gives you lots of useful information.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> But good to see that everything seems to be heading in the right direction.


Indeed I think it starts to get interesting. Already wanted to ditch the mobo for a Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 16, 2020)

@ecopsorn SSD is looking a lot better, but still not quite there. That said, I don't know how their software tests, so please run CrystalDiskMark again and throw that up here.
You can change to IOPS where it says MB/s.

HWInfo is good, take no notice of people dissing it, however, any software that checks the CPU clock speed is going to agitate the CPU, which means that the clock speed is going to change slightly, or maybe even by a lot for a few milliseconds. This is why only Ryzen Master is suggested, but the logging isn't very helpful there in comparison.

Temps are looking fine.

Whatever went wrong last time around seems to be resolved now.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Indeed I think it starts to get interesting. Already wanted to ditch the mobo for a Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme



Bravo! You made it below 68ns. Now we're most definitely into B-die territory at 3600.

Only thing I have against HWInfo is that it does poll your CPU every time it updates, which brings Ryzen 3000 out of idle for a split second (but that's just a Matisse-too-smart, software-too-dumb thing again) so over time your CPU activity looks a bit like an electrocardiogram, lol. It's a great tool to have for overclocking and testing. I just don't run it all the time, as with any other monitoring utility, if my system is already 100% stable and where I want it. You've got a ways to go, so HWInfo is perfect.

If your system doesn't hang or crash for some odd reason, you'd probably want to enter as many subtimings as you can out of that middle section of the window in DRAM calc. But tCL, the 2 tRCDs, tRP, tRAS, tRC, tRFC and Command Rate are the important ones. I dare to say tFAW should also be among those important timings, but I'm personally unfamiliar with the rules regarding tFAW and what what relationship it must have to other timings, etc.

How's that DRAM voltage looking in HWInfo?

Alternatively, instead of using DRAM calc, you can follow this guide: https://github.com/integralfx/MemTestHelper/blob/master/DDR4 OC Guide.md#tightening-timings

It's got lots of info, and is geared towards higher end kits such as B-die, and appears to be up to date for recent developments. It is a lot to take in, though. But if you want to start probing the limits of your B-die, this is probably the way to go.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 16, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> How's that DRAM voltage looking in HWInfo?


Ok getting into the settings.
But I cannot find DRAM voltage in hwinfo  - is it called differently?



TheLostSwede said:


> @ecopsorn SSD is looking a lot better, but still not quite there. That said, I don't know how their software tests, so please run CrystalDiskMark again and throw that up here.
> You can change to IOPS where it says MB/s.
> 
> HWInfo is good, take no notice of people dissing it, however, any software that checks the CPU clock speed is going to agitate the CPU, which means that the clock speed is going to change slightly, or maybe even by a lot for a few milliseconds. This is why only Ryzen Master is suggested, but the logging isn't very helpful there in comparison.
> ...



Here we go - is DiskMark64 the right one and does it matter what I choose in the dropdown? 5/1GiB?
As I wrote, I didn't switch the M2 yet to second position because of all the talk about the thermal pads. I'm too lazy right now to take the GPU out again to check the thermal pad in the first slot, but let me know if I should do it anyway.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Ok getting into the settings.
> But I cannot find DRAM voltage in hwinfo  - is it called differently?
> 
> 
> ...


IOPS are still way off, no idea what's going on here. Obviously as this is the OS drive, they will be lower than the numbers Samsung claims, but this doesn't look quite right on a brand new install of Windows.
I'm afraid I'm out of suggestions though, but moving the drive isn't going to help you, as then it'll go via the chipset instead of being connected directly to the CPU, which should be the slot that offers the best performance.
I guess it's possible that Samsung over hyped the IOPS in their marketing materials, but not by that much.
Based on this review, at least in Anvil's Storage Utilities, the drive is capable at numbers close the marketing numbers if you look at the 4K QD16 results.








						Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB SSD Review - Legit Reviews
					






					www.legitreviews.com
				



I have a slower OEM Samsung drive in this loaner computer, and I get better write results than you do.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 17, 2020)

@ecopsorn DRAM voltage on mine is right before system and CPU fan speeds. It's not in the same block as the CPU sensors.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> IOPS are still way off, no idea what's going on here.


damn, that sucks


tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn DRAM voltage on mine is right before system and CPU fan speeds. It's not in the same block as the CPU sensors.



I managed to get the FAST settings on A0 running, still at 1.35V:




But let me ask this: in another guide I read, it is better to first raise frequency with loose timings until no POST is possible anymore and than tweak timings? Shouldn't I try to get higher frequencies before messing with the timings on 3600?

man I'm still trying to find that dram voltage in hwinfo, gonna google it lol

apparently - my mobo is not able to readout dram voltage https://www.hwinfo.com/forum/threads/missing-dram-voltage-asus-strix-x570-e-nuvoton-nct6798d.6079/


----------



## Fry178 (May 17, 2020)

@ecopsorn
turn gear down/power down for ram to off/disables.
from rare EXCEPTIONS, its usually better to turn them off, same for fast boot. 
the 2s you save will be nothing if u have probs and need to troubleshoot etc, and can't get "out of it"..


----------



## tabascosauz (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> I managed to get the FAST settings on A0 running, still at 1.35V:
> 
> But let me ask this: in another guide I read, it is better to first raise frequency with loose timings until no POST is possible anymore and than tweak timings? Shouldn't I try to get higher frequencies before messing with the timings on 3600?
> 
> man I'm still trying to find that dram voltage in hwinfo, gonna google it lol



Just keeps getting better, huh?  

Each board reports its sensors differently, maybe yours isn't visible to HWInfo? Maybe another monitoring software will report DRAM voltage for you, but the nice thing about HWInfo is that it reports all the little fluctuations in the voltage. If it can't read out DRAM voltage, just always make sure you're setting the right voltage in BIOS.

No rule says that you have to max out the frequencies. If you were on an Intel platform with a high-end SKU, you'd already be shooting for 4400-4800MT/s already if you wanted to push the kit to the max. We can't do that on Ryzen, so we're limited to speeds like 3733 and 3800 max, where the _kit_ can do much more than the _CPU_ and its memory controller allows. But as we know, 3600 is the sweet spot that 99% of Ryzen 3000 CPUs can do, whereas 3733 and 3800 are progressively more difficult for _all_ CPUs to hit. And getting to 3800 for example introduces stability concerns because it's right on the edge of what the IMC is capable of; sometimes, on a less-than-stellar day, you may run into stability problems.

Some people don't even go past 3200. They spend their days with a crazy good B-die kit getting it down to CL12 at 3200, which is pretty damn tight (and also into the territory of 1.5V DRAM voltage, which B-die just eats up no problem, but is temperamental as hell). And some others like us just stay at 3600. With good B-die, I'm confident you can probably do CL14 at 3600. Hell, there are B-die owners on Ryzen out there that are doing 3800 CL14. But it's up to you what you want to do. There's a million ways to get there.

As to Gear Down Mode, it usually should be disabled, but it won't make a difference anyways. It only does anything if your tCL or CAS latency is an odd number, whereupon it'll kick that tCL to the next number up (say 17 will become 18) for stability. That's all it does. Always have Power Down Mode disabled, however.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 17, 2020)

Simply put, there are two ways to get performance out of RAM, higher clock speeds and lower latencies, but one tends to negate the other.

Ryzen 3000 CPUs are a bit of a peculiar beast, in that the Infinity Fabric runs at the same clock as the RAM (the RAM frequency you're looking at is x2, due to Dual Data Rate or DDR). The IF can only run so fast until you start having other problems and that peak seems to be around 1900MHz on a good chip. As such, 3800MHz is as fast as you really want to run your RAM at, as otherwise the IF ends up clocking down. For example, if you were to run your memory at 4000MHz, the IF will run at a mere 500MHz. This might actually reduce the performance in a lot of programs, although some things seemingly care more about memory clocks than anything else, but in reality, most programs like a balance.

AMD obviously went out with 3200MHz as the official top memory clocks speed, but said that up to 3600MHz should be doable quite easily on most CPUs and even put out a graph showing it as the sweet spot, with 3733MHz being where it topped out before the IF dropped down a gear. However, improvements to the AGESA has shown that the limit is 3800MHz if you've got the right components and got a little bit lucky in the silicon lottery.

Does it make sense to hit 3800MHz? Maybe not, but once you're happy with how your system performs, it's something you can tinker with. For now, I'd leave it where you're at for a week or so, play around with all your software and make sure everything works well. Then you can start playing around and see what works out best for you. It might in fact be better with slightly lower clocks and tighter timings, as sometimes that works out as the optimal balance. I can't go down in latency with my RAM, so I went up in clocks instead.



tabascosauz said:


> No rule says that you have to max out the frequencies. If you were on an Intel platform with a high-end SKU, you'd already be shooting for 4400-4800MT/s already if you wanted to push the kit to the max. We can't do that on Ryzen, so we're limited to speeds like 3733 and 3800 max, where the _kit_ can do much more than the _CPU_ and its memory controller allows. But as we know, 3600 is the sweet spot that 99% of Ryzen 3000 CPUs can do, whereas 3733 and 3800 are progressively more difficult for _all_ CPUs to hit. And getting to 3800 for example introduces stability concerns because it's right on the edge of what the IMC is capable of; sometimes, on a less-than-stellar day, you may run into stability problems.


One small point here, you can clearly go much higher than that on a Ryzen CPU in terms of the memory speed, it just doesn't make sense from a platform performance standpoint. I mean, one of the pro guys his 6024MT/s on some Micron/Crucial memory back in October (albeit with terrible latencies) on a Ryzen 3600X. Is it practical? Absolutely not, but someone did it, because it was possible.








						Micron Memory Sets New DDR4 Overclocking World Record
					

Ballistix, Micron's global brand of high-performance gaming memory, has set a new overclocking world record for the fastest DDR4 memory frequency at 6024 MT/s. Leveraging performance-tuned Micron die and the innovation behind the new Ballistix Elite 4000 memory, the ASUS motherboard R&D team set...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

Appreciate it - will see with the ram. Somehow I already can't get the A0 FAST to work anymore - gives me F9 error into 02 and I gotta restart, than it applies JEDEC.
Before I go any further now - there was a third important bench, heaven 4.0
I just did a run and holy cow, it is even worse than with the old windows







I mean this value is embarrassing. - second run is with "prefer optimal performance" set in nvidia control panel. still like 30fps lower than to be expected!


----------



## Fry178 (May 17, 2020)

it only shows 4gb vram. did you check other progs if they show correct 8gb?
i think it only looks worse as the min fps drags all numbers down.
unigine is a bit different than 3DMark and the like, as it can dip pretty hard when you start benching right after tool starts.
let it run until fps "levels out a bit", then hit "bench".


----------



## tabascosauz (May 17, 2020)

@ecopsorn I think the 4GB VRAM thing might be a bug that is also shared with other, different cards. Doesn't matter, because your scores are less than half of what a 2070 Super should do in Heaven 4.0.

Does GPU-Z monitoring in the background while you bench show anything peculiar going on with your GPU clockspeeds, voltages, temps, or perfcap reasons?

You're on the latest WHQL driver, I'm guessing?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> it only shows 4gb vram. did you check other progs if they show correct 8gb?
> i think it only looks worse as the min fps drags all numbers down.
> unigine is a bit different than 3DMark and the like, as it can dip pretty hard when you start benching right after tool starts.
> let it run until fps "levels out a bit", then hit "bench".






problably a bug, in cpu-z it is 8.

The heaven scores might actually be normal. I didn't realize that most test at 1920x1080, so the score there is this (all stock so far - no OC)




so it is damn late again here - appreciate all the help @Fry178 @tabascosauz @TheLostSwede 

*to sum it up - please correct any rumbling down here if it is wrong, no idea how I'm still able to type:*

booting time issue seems resolved - (gonna closely watch it during my program installs. gonna keep fast boot disabled until all is installed
temperatures of CPU is still not great but acceptable under load
Samsung evo has too little IOPS - so far no solution
GPU bench not sure cause I'm tired as f
rams still need tweaking but it looks like that the latency is where it should be
I still don't have PBO enabled and the common understanding in this thread is that it should be kept disabled??
chuck norris doesn't have an ESC key on his computer
I should not try to manually OC CPU cause it won't do much
I should stick to 3600 so far and try to tighten timings.
The goal of this long troubleshooting today was to figure out whether I need a new motherboard or PSU or ssd and whether I should warranty claim something. To be honest, I'm still not sure, not sure if another better mobo would solve more issues or if it would be just a wast of money.
I'd appreciate your opinion.

good night



tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn I think the 4GB VRAM thing might be a bug that is also shared with other, different cards. Doesn't matter, because your scores are less than half of what a 2070 Super should do in Heaven 4.0.
> 
> Does GPU-Z monitoring in the background while you bench show anything peculiar going on with your GPU clockspeeds, voltages, temps, or perfcap reasons?
> 
> You're on the latest WHQL driver, I'm guessing?


not sure what I should look at, here's the screen while having heaven running - ofc latest driver 445.87 - I don't even have my two other monitors plugged in yet and no other software installed


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## Fry178 (May 17, 2020)

@ecopsorn
sounds good so far.

-set your min cpu perf to 20-30%. will lower volt/temps, but not really impact fps.

-you only need to install the samsung driver, magian only if you want to update FW, dont use any caching (or have lots of fun recovering the drive).
test with stock settings of the tools, 1gb file size.

250gb 970 pro:






-haven't tested heaven past 7xx series.
run valley or better superposition (both 1080p/extreme, change to custom if the stock setting wont match that).
did u install gfe/shadowplay? (usually eats a bit fps even if not recording (but present/buffering).

3700+2080FTW hybrid on stock clocks and "dirty" win:


-you're right, the computer has a chuck norris key


----------



## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

Won’t have time until evening to test. 11am here. I will dl the other benches.

this is probably also an important info: this 2070s is already the second 2070s I have in the sysrem. The first one was too loud. With both cards I got almost the same results!


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## TheLostSwede (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Won’t have time until evening to test. 11am here. I will dl the other benches.
> 
> this is probably also an important info: this 2070s is already the second 2070s I have in the sysrem. The first one was too loud. With both cards I got almost the same results!


I doubt you have any busted hardware.
Something to try on the SSD, is to run a TRIM command, leave it for 10 minutes and then run a benchmark.
Also try setting CrystalDiskMark to 4K Q8T8 and you can compare with the numbers in the graphs below to see if you're with the ballpark of those numbers in terms of performance. Then you at least have a solid target in terms of performance, although your random read IOPS should be higher. I also included my results with the same settings, which you should beat if the SSD is working as it should.


----------



## fwiler (May 17, 2020)

I'm that guy that said don't use hwinfo.  But that was to measure temps and voltage at idle.
The op had high voltage and temps at idle.
hwinfo is too aggressive at idle and shoots the cores up each time it measures.  So you don't get a realistic reading.
Others like Ryzen master do not.   
If you are satisfied with your core idle temps and voltage then hwinfo is fine for measuring during all other testing.


----------



## birdie (May 17, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> You have really low write speed.
> 
> Additionally, your large changes from run to run are likely from background processes.



Advice like this is what makes people feel stupid and mad.

Only the Ryzen 9 3900 and better CPUs have full memory write speed, everything below including the 3800X feature halved memory write speed.



ecopsorn said:


> *Cinebench Score Updates:*
> 
> 4891pts - only windows update - default nvidia - default chipset - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - no doccp
> 4928pts - only windows update - default nvidia - default chipset - cpu load 0% /// no PBO - doccp enabled
> ...



Looks like a Windows reinstall has solved all your issues. Your scores are perfectly fine now.



ecopsorn said:


> *to sum it up - please correct any rumbling down here if it is wrong, no idea how I'm still able to type:*
> 
> booting time issue seems resolved - (gonna closely watch it during my program installs. gonna keep fast boot disabled until all is installed
> temperatures of CPU is still not great but acceptable under load
> ...



Don't bother with your SSD IOPS - they are perfectly fine for your use.

PBO will make your system run maybe 2% faster at the cost of a hugely inceased power consumption and even higher temps. You're already not content with your temps, why would you want to OC your system?

Tightening RAM timings without then running memtest86 for at least few hours may lead to instability, crashes and sometimes even *data loss*.


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## TheLostSwede (May 17, 2020)

fwiler said:


> I'm that guy that said don't use hwinfo.  But that was to measure temps and voltage at idle.
> The op had high voltage and temps at idle.
> hwinfo is too aggressive at idle and shoots the cores up each time it measures.  So you don't get a realistic reading.
> Others like Ryzen master do not.
> If you are satisfied with your core idle temps and voltage then hwinfo is fine for measuring during all other testing.


You can actually set how often HWInfo should poll the system, so you can reduce that by yourself. But yes, the default setting is quite aggressive.
Change that 2000ms to something higher and it's not as aggressive.


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## moproblems99 (May 17, 2020)

birdie said:


> like this is what makes people feel stupid and mad.



Sorry, no advice was given.  Only observation.


----------



## TheHunter (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Sry about the bad quality but here's the task manager.
> The app was "Snagit" - a screenshot app, but it only was at the beginning, now at 0% where it is supposed to be.
> I need the iCUE for my RGB profils unfortunately and in it I have my commander pro controlling the case fan speeds as well.
> 
> ...


Eset is shit lately.. remove that and you will have resposive system from start..

Ive used eset for years until it really started to piss me off by startup last few months, 1-3min lag by boot.. stupid firewall service is slowing it down. Although i like its firewall rules setup..

Atm at kaspersky trial and it loads fast.




About idle temp., asus c states are usually set to auto/off by default and cpu can idle at higher temp., it wont use c states at all even at balanced..


About slow  logo boot, yes there is something in bios conflicting. I guess like others said ram training failing..


Also in bios there is a setting by sata called agressive power saving , turn that off.

Idk about ryzen but maybe it also has this tinylake lake setting that can control c states via intel rst.


Have you tried older icue app.. i use that for my h115i pro rgb, seems less cluttered and buggy.

Edit;
I see you fixed your ram issues with new ram, good. 

And dont monitor CB with background apps like hwinfo or aida, that will have score variations .. same with icue runing in the background.

Use them only for troubleshooting.


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## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @ecopsorn
> sounds good so far.
> 
> -set your min cpu perf to 20-30%. will lower volt/temps, but not really impact fps.
> ...



you mean this? from 99 to 20? 




I'm downloading the benches now and report.
I did not install shadowplay



TheLostSwede said:


> I doubt you have any busted hardware.
> Something to try on the SSD, is to run a TRIM command, leave it for 10 minutes and then run a benchmark.
> Also try setting CrystalDiskMark to 4K Q8T8 and you can compare with the numbers in the graphs below to see if you're with the ballpark of those numbers in terms of performance. Then you at least have a solid target in terms of performance, although your random read IOPS should be higher. I also included my results with the same settings, which you should beat if the SSD is working as it should.


will try that asap



birdie said:


> Looks like a Windows reinstall has solved all your issues. Your scores are perfectly fine now.
> PBO will make your system run maybe 2% faster at the cost of a hugely inceased power consumption and even higher temps. You're already not content with your temps, why would you want to OC your system?
> Tightening RAM timings without then running memtest86 for at least few hours may lead to instability, crashes and sometimes even *data loss*.



don't feel like all is resolved yet but it was definitely a step forward. With the new install I've had it 2 times now that the windows button (start menu) stopped working. I also had 2-3 restarts where the computer wouldn't restart, all lights and fans were still on though - had to manually reset.

I let PBO disabled, that's fine

Once I've tested more on the gpu now and some disk benches, I might tune some timings again and let the memtest run overnight




TheHunter said:


> Eset is shit lately.. remove that and you will have resposive system from start..


hmm, also have it running on my computers since years, but probably it is time for a switch. I don't have it installed yet.

@Fry178
this is the valley run




@TheLostSwede
latest run, haven't changed anything. somehow 4k is much much higher




and here is the Q8T8 bench - aren't those numbers suddenly very good now and if they are - how the hell can it vary that much from day to day on a clean system with nothing changed except a good night sleep in between?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @TheLostSwede
> latest run, haven't changed anything. somehow 4k is much much higher
> View attachment 155609
> 
> ...


Looking good now. I guess there might've been some updates or something running in the background that might have caused the hiccup.
Nothing to worry about here now.

The random restarts and lockups are not good though. Not sure what's causing that, but most likely some setting or the other.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

Samsung magician thingy still reports that though - but like a lot of you mentioned, I should ditch that program anyway


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## TheLostSwede (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Samsung magician thingy still reports that though - but like a lot of you mentioned, I should ditch that program anyway
> View attachment 155611


No need to dump the magician, as it's used for updating the firmware on the SSD, which I presume you have done?
As you've seen, there are a lot of variables when you test and we don't know what settings Samsung use, unless there's somewhere you can find that.
Just don't leave it running in the background, as it's obviously eating some resources, which is pointless.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> No need to dump the magician, as it's used for updating the firmware on the SSD, which I presume you have done?
> As you've seen, there are a lot of variables when you test and we don't know what settings Samsung use, unless there's somewhere you can find that.
> Just don't leave it running in the background, as it's obviously eating some resources, which is pointless.


yes, all updated. than I cross the SSD performance of my list of things to fix 

Regarding ram timings - most timings I try now give me the following error sequence: F9 -> d6 -> 02 | at 02 nothing happens anymore and I have to manually power off. After that windows boots, pressing DEL won't get me into bios, in windows JEDEC is applied when I check timings, after restart I can get back into Bios.
I'm gonna run stock timings now with membench overnight.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 17, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> yes, all updated. than I cross the SSD performance of my list of things to fix
> 
> Regarding ram timings - most timings I try now give me the following error sequence: F9 -> d6 -> 02 | at 02 nothing happens anymore and I have to manually power off. After that windows boots, pressing DEL won't get me into bios, in windows JEDEC is applied when I check timings, after restart I can get back into Bios.
> I'm gonna run stock timings now with membench overnight.



Things are looking up!  Great progress.


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## tabascosauz (May 17, 2020)

@ecopsorn valley scores are about right for a 2070S. You sure you weren't running heaven on crazy settings or had an update going in the background?

Random restarts, BSODs and lockups are symptoms of an unstable ram profile. Go back to 16-16-16-36, take your DRAM voltage off auto and set it manually at 1.35V, add more voltage if DRAM calc recommends it. Remember that the 3600 /14 profiles all require a bit more voltage, at least 1.37V I think.

Hence why I've been saying that while high end B-die has a lot of potential, DRAM overclocking is an exhausting business. You can stop at any point you wish, but you still need to make sure your current profile is stable to the best of your ability. That means MT86 + P95 large + games. 

Standard testing suite is minimum 4-8 runs of memtest86 booting from a USB, 1hr of P95 Large FFTs, plus additional programs if you wish like a few runs of AIDA or membench. Then, it helps to play some more demanding games (eg. MW 2019/) that can heat up the RAM, although P95 Large will do the same thing.

With B-die, you can apply voltage a bit more liberally, but remember that the more Vdram you add, the more heat is produced. b-die is notoriously sensitive to heat, so when the sticks get hot to 50C, what is stable cold may not be stable anymore. When running P95 Large fpr example, use HWInfo to keep an eye on your DIMM temperatures.


----------



## fwiler (May 17, 2020)

> don't feel like all is resolved yet but it was definitely a step forward. With the new install I've had it 2 times now that the windows button (start menu) stopped working. I also had 2-3 restarts where the computer wouldn't restart, all lights and fans were still on though - had to manually reset.



Without keeping track of every change you are making, and you are making a lot, you'll never figure out why.
Make one change.  Run stress test on cpu, mem, and gpu for a couple of hours.
If it works, then continue on.  If not, and you lock up again, then you only have to make one change back and not wonder what went wrong.

*Troubleshooting is methodical.*

Although it probably won't help, as I don't believe this is a software issue, you should check your event viewer just in case it does give some clue.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 17, 2020)

fwiler said:


> Without keeping track of every change you are making, and you are making a lot, you'll never figure out why.
> Make one change. Run stress test on cpu, mem, and gpu for a couple of hours.
> If it works, then continue on. If not, and you lock up again, then you only have to make one change back and not wonder what went wrong.
> 
> ...



Good advice.  If I have a lot to do I will generally do a couple settings at a time to speed up the process.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 17, 2020)

fwiler said:


> Without keeping track of every change you are making, and you are making a lot, you'll never figure out why.
> Although it probably won't help, as I don't believe this is a software issue, you should check your event viewer just in case it does give some clue.


All the changes I did are documented in this thread after windows install. Which lot of changes do u mean? I’m basically only running benches and applied like 3 ram timing settings. I installed only the minimum so far - documented where The cb scores are.
Gonna check the event viewer later.

I’m just back on the stock ram settings now and let memtest86 do the testing 
Gotta sleep


----------



## Fry178 (May 18, 2020)

@birdie
Well, most buy something because of its (expected)  performance,
and not so its just "good enough".
Should i be happy if my 500hp 2 door only gets 200hp and cant pass 80mph,
because i cant legally drive faster anyway and its still good enough to get groceries?  No.
as long as i didn't get something for free, i personally would not be happy if perf isnt within 1-5% of what is advertised/expected..


@ecopsorn
For now, turn off updates for win and dont install stuff.
Lets get it stable, once that is the case, i recommend waiting for may update and clean install once the new build is out, to rule out possible issue from installing win while sys was not really stable.

large changes for ram i would quick test with memtest running test 5/6/7, which are usually most sensitive.
once that doesn't show errors, run full set about 5 times, after that running it more often will usually not making any diff.

prime is great to see how "unstable" your settings are.
the worse, the quicker it will throw errors.
faulty stuff shows within minutes, to tight settings usually 20 to 30 min,
anything past that put before 1h can most of the time fixed with upping voltage,  so i would leave it at 1.35, lower timings so you don't get error under 30-40 min then add some v and see if it works.

running prime for 10-12h, better 24h is a good way to see that there arent any major things, but unfortunately not a guarantee.
there are ppl running prime for 20h no probs but rig still had issues.
so i tend to stop after running it for about 12h.


Edit:
Use windows security, or get bitdefender free.
Usually much less impact on perf/gaming, than many others.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn valley scores are about right for a 2070S. You sure you weren't running heaven on crazy settings or had an update going in the background?
> 
> Random restarts, BSODs and lockups are symptoms of an unstable ram profile. Go back to 16-16-16-36, take your DRAM voltage off auto and set it manually at 1.35V, add more voltage if DRAM calc recommends it. Remember that the 3600 /14 profiles all require a bit more voltage, at least 1.37V I think.
> 
> ...



good advice, will look into it. I took the day off today to do some more testing, the memtest86 showed 0 errors with these timings, but of course they are not tight at all.




The thing is, I did printout all possible scenarios from dram calc (A0, manual import thaiphoon), safe and fast, etc.) and none of these let me boot, just like with the old ram.
So either the new ram b-die is also sucky or I'm just expecting too much. I try to take it slow now and adjust 1 primary timing, try to boot, etc.

About the heaven score, here I posted the score with 1080p, I did always run it on my native resolution 1440.

Ram temps at idle after computer was running overnight to do memtest look like this:






Fry178 said:


> @ecopsorn
> For now, turn off updates for win and dont install stuff.
> Lets get it stable, once that is the case, i recommend waiting for may update and clean install once the new build is out, to rule out possible issue from installing win while sys was not really stable.
> 
> ...



also good advice, try to test as much as possible today. And about antivirus, I'm listening to the advice of you guys and ditch ESET. I think I'm just sticking with windows security for now.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 18, 2020)

@ecopsorn that's not the XMP profile, and that's not DRAM calc's highly suspect A0 recommendation either. If you're having trouble with these profiles out of the calculator, start tweaking from XMP as a foundation.

First things first, MT86 doesn't prove anything on its own. Memtest86 is a baseline test you usually run when you have brand new sticks and you don't know if they have any serious errors or not. Once you've established once that your kit doesn't have major issues, its importance diminishes in the context of overclocking. It does NOT work the IMC or the RAM very hard, hence the cool temperatures you see. That's why it's imperative to move to demanding tests such as P95 Large FFTs and some extended period of intense gaming, to see how the RAM performs when it's _hot_. Like 45-50C. And while you're in the OS, you may as well throw some extra membench or memtest64.exe utilities in the mix.

Have you adjusted the DRAM voltage as needed, as I've mentioned before? You will not hit the two 3600 CL14 profiles without moving past at least 1.37V, guaranteed. You may need to go up to 1.4V. Shouldn't be a problem with airflow.

The issue without having DRAM voltage monitoring on your board is that we don't know what the voltage regulation on the DDR side is like. Is it automatically overvolted beyond whatever setting you enter (as Gigabyte does), or is the LLC weak and allows the Vdram to drop at times far below the voltage setting you've entered?

Also, whatever profile you're on, turn Gear Down Mode off. It's 0.5ns in latency, the equivalent of 1.5T command rate, and won't help you at these speeds.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

Hi @tabascosauz - yeah not seeing dram v in windows sucks.
I did went up with voltage up to 1.4 so far.
This is my latest booting config. @1.38V.
Very strangely on this one I had gear down power down on auto, when I tried to disable it, I got error F9 and couldnt boot?



I did went up with voltage up to 1.4 so far but cl14 won’t post yet.

as a general note for everyone - I could just accept the cl16 timing and be done with it, but somehow I want this challenge 
Hell I’m even still considering changing the board just because lol.

and about xmp, ppl suggested just go manual instead of xmp as a base - gets me confused haha


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 18, 2020)

Xmp/docp is very dependent on your board on how well performs and there are 3600 cl14 and 3800 CL14 kits if you wanted to gurantee yourself those speeds.


I'm actually tempted to pick up the 3800 cl14 kit as my board is on the qvl


----------



## tabascosauz (May 18, 2020)

@ecopsorn An enthusiastic attitude is great, but at least establish a baseline at 16-16-16-36 and make sure it's stable. Otherwise, you'll be going through the profiles and have nothing working to fall back on. XMP is literally just an Auto button. Sometimes it doesn't work so well for some people. It's just a freq + set of timings + 1.35V at a push of a button.

Never really seen tRP and tRCD lower than CL. I don't know what implications for stability there are in doing so. Usually you'd just go to CL15 at that point, but you'd need GDM off for odd number tCL to work. Error F9 is unstable RAM.

_tRAS = tCL + tRCD(RD) + 2 _

The tRAS of 32 makes no sense, it doesn't follow the above rule and may actually cost you performance. Also, fix your tRRDS/tRRDL/tFAW/tWR. tWR is whatever works, doesn't need to correspond to the others.



Also, do any programs other than HWInfo report DRAM voltage? And not what you've put in the setting, the actual live reading of Vdram. I have a feeling that DRAM voltage is being set by the board lower than the value you enter, but until you can make sure of the actual DRAM voltage I wouldn't go acting on that suspicion.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

@tabascosauz
Oh yes I did have some screwed settings there.
I did read somewhere to focus on the main timings first and than worry about subtimings, thats why I never paid attention to tRRFS tRRDL and such.

about my screwed tras number - I didn’t know that formula u posted, thx a bunch. i was trying to change one value after the other and test, but now I know how to to it better

here's a ryzen master screenshot - seems all differently named so u gotta help me out. but could VDDCR SOC be the DRAM voltage? and CLDO VDDP soc, just the SOC Voltage?




Got gear down power down disabled now but figured out that computer wants 2T now instead of 1T, whats the reason for that again?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 18, 2020)

@ecopsorn 2T is easier to run, more stable. 1T is faster, less stable at higher speeds/difficult timings. GDM is in the middle, like 1.5T of sorts.

Uhhh VDDIO is DRAM voltage. Worrying thing is mine just shows is as a static value, the current BIOS setting. Can't think of any reason it's 0. I've never seen it as 0 before. A quick search came up with nothing.

I know for a fact that Asus' ROG AM4 boards have DRAM voltage monitoring like literally every other board out there, so either no one with your board has ever done any proper RAM overclocking before, or something is going on here.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Xmp/docp is very dependent on your board on how well performs and there are 3600 cl14 and 3800 CL14 kits if you wanted to gurantee yourself those speeds.
> 
> 
> I'm actually tempted to pick up the 3800 cl14 kit as my board is on the qvl



thanks mate but I just got new kits. I’m sure if I’d get cl14 kits I’d want it to be lower as well lol


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 18, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> thanks mate but I just got new kits. I’m sure if I’d get cl14 kits I’d want it to be lower as well lol




Yeah, mine do 3800 cl16 pretty easily and 3600 cl14 but I'm not satisfied either.  So I get it. 


I also have crappy cjr on my Intel system I want to ditch so extra motivation.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

this one switched to 2T now - 1T won't boot




but yeah, voltage 0 in ryzen, hmm


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 18, 2020)

Odd 2T usually has a bigger impact on latency for me.


You could try an Aorus Extreme/Master.... I have the master and now the hero and in my opinion memory tuning is much easier on the gigabyte board. If you decide to ditch your board of course.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Odd 2T usually has a bigger impact on latency for me.
> You could try an Aorus Extreme/Master.... I have the master and now the hero and in my opinion memory tuning is much easier on the gigabyte board. If you decide to ditch your board of course.


Yes if I switch than a gigabyte but I’d appreciate a dual bios because my guts tell me I’m soon gonna brick mine haha

@tabascosauz 
_tRAS = tCL + tRCD(RD) + 2_
but how come the stock timing is 16-16-16-36 and not 34?  What do I miss?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 18, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Yes if I switch than a gigabyte but I’d appreciate a dual bios because my guts tell me I’m soon gonna brick mine haha
> 
> @tabascosauz
> _tRAS = tCL + tRCD(RD) + 2_
> but how come the stock timing is 16-16-16-36 and not 34?  What do I miss?



Doesn't matter as much if you're above that, the usual latency applies. You just don't want to less than that number.

More importantly, am i seeing things? Is your SoC voltage 1.363???? That shit needs to be 1.1V. Never over 1.2.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Doesn't matter as much if you're above that, the usual latency applies. You just don't want to less than that number.
> 
> More importantly, am i seeing things? Is your SoC voltage 1.363???? That shit needs to be 1.1V. Never over 1.2.



ok got it. No way, soc I never have above 1.1 in bios at least - I dunno what those values in ryzen master are


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 18, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> this one switched to 2T now - 1T won't boot
> View attachment 155719
> but yeah, voltage 0 in ryzen, hmm


If that's stable, I would leave it at that for now. Give it a few weeks to tinker with everything else and enjoy your system.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 18, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> If that's stable, I would leave it at that for now. Give it a few weeks to tinker with everything else and enjoy your system.



i wished as well but memtest showed errors, therefore nit stable.
It seems now pretty common that for the minor timing tweaks I get into windows, get good latency and all but after a restart with same settings gives me error 8d.

so I’m pretty much back on the fallback timings and wonder why I can’t even get a little tighter timings stable.

if I’d new for sure that another mobo would fix it, I’d get one but it might be the same shit show as I have now


----------



## tabascosauz (May 18, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> i wished as well but memtest showed errors, therefore nit stable.
> It seems now pretty common that for the minor timing tweaks I get into windows, get good latency and all but after a restart with same settings gives me error 8d.
> 
> so I’m pretty much back on the fallback timings and wonder why I can’t even get a little tighter timings stable.
> ...



I've seen some ROG Hero owners report that uninstalling and reinstalling newest chipset drivers may solve the issues of RM misreading voltages. Given that you've just reinstalled, I don't think it'll change anything. It's honestly pretty amazing to me that a $300USD X570 board lacks DRAM voltage reading capability.

Anecdotally, having SoC slightly below 1.1 at 1.08 to 1.09 may help stability at speeds where having a high SoC isn't actually necessary. This is not scientifically proven, however, and the conventional wisdom is that you need higher SoC to sustain aggressive memory settings.

Hard to tell if a new motherboard will solve the problem, but you can never ascertain these kinds of things for sure. There's no telling what other sorts of potential issues you might run into with a new board, as well.

Anecdotally, some people are recommending that 3600 CL14 may require 1.5V. Which isn't exactly a problem for B-die longevity as you can run 1.5V daily with airflow, but a lot more than I initially surmised would be required. That would also mean that DRAM calc's voltage recommendations are _way_ off, which is not a surprise either. Given the jump only really gives you some benchmark e-peen, I guess you gotta make a decision if an extra 1-1.5V Vdram is worth the negligible real-world gains. Also, the 2T and GDM are imposing an automatic 0.5ns penalty on whatever profile you use, so you're never going to get "great" results if that isn't worked out.

Are you changing procODT as well? The ohms that you set can have an impact on whether you can boot at specific speeds. On this subject, I'm not sure if DRAM calc's numbers are reliable; I would just subscribe to Buildzoid's channel and watch some of his older videos. He's spent a fair bit of time with all sorts of A0 and A2 B-die and a X570-I Strix.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 18, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Are you changing procODT as well? The ohms that you set can have an impact on whether you can boot at specific speeds. On this subject, I'm not sure if DRAM calc's numbers are reliable; I would just subscribe to Buildzoid's channel and watch some of his older videos. He's spent a fair bit of time with all sorts of A0 and A2 B-die and a X570-I Strix.


Can't speak for B-dies, but it's pretty close with Hynix CJR for procODT.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 19, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> I've seen some ROG Hero owners report that uninstalling and reinstalling newest chipset drivers may solve the issues of RM misreading voltages. Given that you've just reinstalled, I don't think it'll change anything. It's honestly pretty amazing to me that a $300USD X570 board lacks DRAM voltage reading capability.
> 
> Anecdotally, having SoC slightly below 1.1 at 1.08 to 1.09 may help stability at speeds where having a high SoC isn't actually necessary. This is not scientifically proven, however, and the conventional wisdom is that you need higher SoC to sustain aggressive memory settings.
> 
> ...



thx - with the new ram I haven’t done as many tests as with the old ones ofc, never went past 1.45v yetbut ai know that 1.5 is still ok for b-die.
ProcODT I sometimes changed to around 40 also sometimes but could never boot a timing just cause of this setting.

with the new ram unstability of Cl14 was obvious so far. I did boot it once but the aida mem stress test immediately stoped when I wanted to start it.

i did order the msi godlike as an overkill now but not sure yet whether I open and install it. I‘m gonna run some more memtests on not so tight timings and see if it all passes on the old board. Ther is a holiday coming up and I want to have a board rdy when I really feel like I need/want it. Otherwise I’m sending it back.

bullzoid I watched many mobo reviews but never for rams, thanks for the hint.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 19, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> thx - with the new ram I haven’t done as many tests as with the old ones ofc, never went past 1.45v yetbut ai know that 1.5 is still ok for b-die.
> ProcODT I sometimes changed to around 40 also sometimes but could never boot a timing just cause of this setting.
> 
> with the new ram unstability of Cl14 was obvious so far. I did boot it once but the aida mem stress test immediately stoped when I wanted to start it.
> ...



What makes these lesser-known timings and secondary voltages difficult to discern is that a lot of the highly praised RAM OC guides for Ryzen are written for the Summit and Pinnacle families (1000 and 2000). Similar, but most definitely not the same. And you're never really told which settings are the same and which aren't.

Down at the bottom on the Memtesthelper Github guide I linked, there's a section with misc tips for AMD.

procODT suggested between 28-40ohms for our Ryzen 3000 chips. If you look at those older Ryzen 1000/2000 guides, they suggest 40-60ohm instead.
VDDG CCD is a supplementary voltage applied to the core chiplets, allegedly a bit of a boost can help memory training, which is what I assume the F9 error your board throws is all about.
Apparently, CLDO-VDDP (not to be confused with VDDP) helps as well. But the only figure I can find is Vdram minus 0.1V, and that's from the Ryzen 1000/2000 guide. Any old voltage recommendations, I'd probably confirm they're still safe before applying to Ryzen 3000.
The suggested range for tRFC is 288-324 for B-die, and obviously higher is okay (just not as fast) as well; don't feel like you're strictly limited to a particular number.
I'm particularly interested in what sorts of B550 boards these makers are going to put out. My B450 board doesn't allow me to use my C14S, the BIOS sucks ass, and the Vcore VRM is short on phases. Some of them look real premium for a B chipset, there's another option in the pot for you. In my country, AMD wants me to sell a kidney for an X570 board.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 19, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> In my country, AMD wants me to sell a kidney for an X570 board.


The board makers you mean, since AMD doesn't sell boards  
Can't you sneak south of the border to get one cheaper?
Smuggle it back over inside your bear skin coat? Just cover it up in some maple syrup first so the customs dogs can't smell that new motherboard smell...


----------



## fwiler (May 19, 2020)

Not sure if this is relevant these days, but it was in the past...
OC'ing 4 sticks of ram was always harder than 2.  And in some cases you couldn't overclock at all with 4 sticks.
But like I said, this was long ago and may not pertain here.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 19, 2020)

fwiler said:


> Not sure if this is relevant these days, but it was in the past...
> OC'ing 4 sticks of ram was always harder than 2.  And in some cases you couldn't overclock at all with 4 sticks.
> But like I said, this was long ago and may not pertain here.


I think it is still true in terms of frequency at least. I was aware of that when I bought 4 sticks, as u all know I’m no expert though  . But not being able to get such high quality sticks to cl14 stable seems very odd. These guys over here seem to have pulled off much more with the same ram than I’m aiming for:








						G.SKILL Trident Z Royal Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) 288-Pin RGB DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3600 (PC4 28800) Desktop Memory Model F4-3600C16Q-32GTRS - Newegg.com
					

Buy G.SKILL Trident Z Royal Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) 288-Pin RGB DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3600 (PC4 28800) Desktop Memory Model F4-3600C16Q-32GTRS with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.google.ch
				






ofc they might tell BS



TheLostSwede said:


> With 8GB sticks it seems to be fine, but the OP got 16GB sticks, so there might still be some truth in that.


No OP got 4x8 now - I had 2x16 vengeance


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 19, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> No OP got 4x8 now - I had 2x16 vengeance


Oh, right, doh! Brainfart


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 24, 2020)

@ecopsorn any update?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 24, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> @ecopsorn any update?



hey man, not so much because I’m waiting for the new board, delivery is so slow. I should get it soon though.
Regarding my initial issues. The new ram solved the latency issue and windows re-install solved the boot time issue

Boot time issue resolved by win re-install, selecting UEFI instead of Other OS
SSD low speeds seem okish now but will wait for the new board. Got better also by re-install win
GPU benches seem fine - initial score was wrong to conpare because I ran a higher resolution than 1080p.
Random 8d errors at restart still happening, waiting for new board to set ram
so basically I will report back when I got the new board running. I’m hoping for some better thermals as well, bought a new thermal paste. In the meantime I ran some more benches to get a good comparison between old board and new board.

thanks at everyone for the support already. Will likely need your suggestions though for the ram tuning with the new board. Watched lots of bullzoid lately so I got into it some more, but my goal is getting cl14 running with a latency 65.x and good read/copy speeds


----------



## heky (May 24, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> hey man, not so much because I’m waiting for the new board, delivery is so slow. I should get it soon though.
> Regarding my initial issues. The new ram solved the latency issue and windows re-install solved the boot time issue
> 
> Boot time issue resolved by win re-install, selecting UEFI instead of Other OS
> ...


So what board did you choose?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 24, 2020)

heky said:


> So what board did you choose?


MSI x570 Godlike - don’t flame me for overkill reasons 

Just gonna share my latest idle temps. I do think everything is just too high in general. Very funny though is that it won't change with the side glass of the case off. So when I don't have a case/airflow issue, why are they so "+high at idle. I'm very curious if it will change with the new board or stay the same:

[AMBIENCE TEMP: ca. 25°C]
CPU: 50°C (CPU Core V: 1.406V)
CPU Package: 62°C
GPU: 60°C - it is a MSI 2070S. The card has a zero fan profile so it is normal that it's a bit high with no fans, but there are ppl with the same card reporting ca. 15°C lower idle temps
Motherboard: 48°C
Chipset: 70°C
DIMM's: ca. 44°C
M.2: 60°C (remember in the thread that once it was down to a normal 35°C? it is just fishy
Upper case temp: 35°C (temp probe)


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 24, 2020)

I'm starting to wonder if all the high end X570 boards will be getting refreshes.. The B550 Aorus Master has 16 70 amp power stages with the same voltage controller from the Extreme making it better than every VRM on X570 other than the extreme.


Your Godlike should be a pretty sweet board it seems to be by a hair the second best performing vrm thermally and has a ton of features.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 24, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> I'm starting to wonder if all the high end X570 boards will be getting refreshes.. The B550 Aorus Master has 16 70 amp power stages with the same voltage controller from the Extreme making it better than every VRM on X570 other than the extreme.


Could be, MSI also has the x570 tomahawk now which is impressive for the price, but it is not available in my country yet.
U can always wait for new updates, revisions, models, etc. but I don’t want to wait for a mobo, just wanna get done and actually use my system


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 24, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Could be, MSI also has the x570 tomahawk now which is impressive for the price, but it is not available in my country yet.
> U can always wait for new updates, revisions, models, etc. but I don’t want to wait for a mobo, just wanna get done and actually use my system




Yeah I agree waiting sucks.... I'm doing a couple B550 Builds next month or whenever they launch so I was looking into that one and was shocked at the specs.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 24, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Yeah I agree waiting sucks.... I'm doing a couple B550 Builds next month or whenever they launch so I was looking into that one and was shocked at the specs.


Do you have a money tree in your garden?   

It's actually quite a terrible board when you consider how they split the PCIe lanes. It's going to be such a mess once people get their hands on B550 boards with more expansion slots than the chipset/CPU supports natively.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 24, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> The board makers you mean, since AMD doesn't sell boards
> Can't you sneak south of the border to get one cheaper?
> Smuggle it back over inside your bear skin coat? Just cover it up in some maple syrup first so the customs dogs can't smell that new motherboard smell...



Well I first gotta wait until the border opens up again at the end of next month. The US agents don't care, unless you're of central Asian descent with violent Islamist leanings. The Canuckistan Gestapo, on the other hand, will send you inside to pay your taxes even if you literally have nothing to pay for. I once showed the booth some receipts for gas and food not exceeding $100, upon which the agent acted all alarmed and sent me inside. The others at the counter were confused as to why I was there with no actual outstanding balance and wasting their time. Take it up with the fatass that sent me here, then - he clearly believes he's above the law.

Sad that I should live a literal 5 minutes from the border and not have driven to the USA once after that incident. 



ecopsorn said:


> MSI x570 Godlike - don’t flame me for overkill reasons
> 
> Just gonna share my latest idle temps. I do think everything is just too high in general. Very funny though is that it won't change with the side glass of the case off. So when I don't have a case/airflow issue, why are they so "+high at idle. I'm very curious if it will change with the new board or stay the same:
> 
> ...



Your idle temps still look like everything has a +10C offset for some reason. You say that you don't have an airflow issue, and you certainly do have a lot of fans, but have you actually stuck your hand in your case to see how much air your fans are actually pushing? My case is tiny by comparison and I run a silent case fan profile but with just 2 NF-A12x25s as intake and 1 NF-A9 as exhaust, my System1 sensor is always sub-40C at idle, my DIMMS are below 35C, my NVMe drive at 35C. 

My 2060S FE doesn't have fan stop so it idles at 30C, but my older 1070 in my other PC does. It idles at 44-50C with the fans at 0 rpm.

On the topic of idle temps, I've been revisiting my undervolting settings lately, because there appears to be an inexplicable, significant difference in idle temperatures with and without undervolting. At full load on stock settings, the Vcore it feeds the chip gives me between 0.025-0.05V of extra voltage to play with, so I always set -0.075V with Turbo LLC to try and minimize droop at load to where it's just enough to stay stable, without dropping any benchmark scores.

From what the sensors say, it shouldn't have any impact on idle behaviour. Average Voltage in RM is still ~0.2V and cores still sleep as they should, the temperature that RM reads is also about the same (similar to Tdie, I think). But on stock settings, idle temps regularly stay up in the 45-50C range on the Tctl/Tdie sensor, whereas with the undervolt, the temps are consistently between 30-40C and almost never peaking above that without some sort of activity going on, much closer to the more stable and lower Tdie and Taverage readings. 

The conventional wisdom to avoid a spiky, loud idle is to close HWInfo and add hysteresis, but neither of those tips make a difference for me without undervolting. With an undervolt going on, they work like a charm. 

So regardless of how most owners disapprove of undervolting because they think it always has to come at the cost of performance (clocks are definitely going to start dropping if you ax -0.1V off of Vcore without any LLC compensation), as long as your chip has extra breathing room at stock and you know what you're doing, there seems to be a definite benefit here. I just can't explain why there's a difference based on the sensor data. Yours still sounds like an airflow issue, however.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> MSI x570 Godlike - don’t flame me for overkill reasons
> 
> Just gonna share my latest idle temps. I do think everything is just too high in general. Very funny though is that it won't change with the side glass of the case off. So when I don't have a case/airflow issue, why are they so "+high at idle. I'm very curious if it will change with the new board or stay the same:
> 
> ...




I think I saw in a prior post you had iCue running.  Turn off iCue and Steam and your idle temps and idle voltages should drop.  If I recall properly those programs had some stupid high timer resolution set and that basically was ensuring your CPU would end up boosting as frequently as possible.  ( I use commander pro hardware mode so I can basically turn off iCue. )

For your comparison I have a 3800x as well.  Here are my temps at about ambient 28c (external to the case using a cooking thermometer) on a custom loop.


http://imgur.com/a/wkacVze


----------



## ecopsorn (May 25, 2020)

@tabascosauz @A Computer Guy
Thanks, I will see how it behaves when the mobo arrives.
regarding the case fans, I did even put a tiny feather in front of every fan to confirm that the direction of airflow is correct. Even when I put them at max speed 1600rpm, temps only get down a little bit.

Here are some more data. I cold booted after the computer was off the whole night.
Before I did it, I made sure to have no background processes running, no steam, no icue, no razer, no nothing

values in °C

Cold Boot (5min. after start of PC)+20min.+60min.5min top fan speeds 1650rpmChip546364.362.5Dims average28.83839-4139Drive39525451Case2827.5-39 (second number below GPU)28-4128-40GPU34494449CPU47434040CPU Package50495447Fans715in x3 / 685out x3715in x3 / 685out x3715in x3 / 685out x3715in x3 / 685out x3


----------



## heky (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @tabascosauz @A Computer Guy
> Thanks, I will see how it behaves when the mobo arrives.
> regarding the case fans, I did even put a tiny feather in front of every fan to confirm that the direction of airflow is correct. Even when I put them at max speed 1600rpm, temps only get down a little bit.
> 
> ...



These are normal temperatures! What is your issue again?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 25, 2020)

heky said:


> These are normal temperatures! What is your issue again?


At idle? No, not really.


----------



## heky (May 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> At idle? No, not really.


Really, which one in particular is not normal? He is aircooling in a case that is also not great at airflow...


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 25, 2020)

heky said:


> Really, which one in particular is not normal? He is aircooling in a case that is also not great at airflow...


Where did you get that from?
By the looks of his pictures and choice of fans, it shouldn't be that airflow.








						3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?
					

So for the less informed of us, can you tell me why the board affects memory when the memory controller is in the CPU?  What is contained in the board besides the slot and traces that would affect memory compatibility?  I have never bought qvl in my life.  Also, never had a problem.  And no, not...




					www.techpowerup.com
				



Regardless, the CPU shouldn't be over 60 degrees C on idle, even with an air cooler.
Even the stock cooler should keep it around 50 degrees C. Example in the link.





						Is 40 - 50c on idle the normal temp for the 3800x?
					

As I am exploring the "Internets", high temps for the 3800x seem to be a common theme.  So is it normal for this cpu to be running on these temps?  and what of the longevity?   This is my newly built rig: Thermaltake V200 Mid-Tower case with 3 120mm fans in the front and one 120mm Rear Fan...




					community.amd.com


----------



## heky (May 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Where did you get that from?
> By the looks of his pictures and choice of fans, it shouldn't be that airflow.
> 
> 
> ...


His case has a glass front so the air has to get sucked trough a really tight gap. The airflow in that case is really bad. Period. Also he is running the fans under 1000rpm, which makes matters worse. (Running fans at higher RPM actually made the temps better)

And where did you get the cpu over 60° on idle from? His last post says something else, check again. Its actually spot on with the article you linked as being the normal temps. So wtf?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 25, 2020)

heky said:


> His case has a glass front so the air has to get sucked trough a really tight gap. The airflow in that case is really bad. Period. Also he is running the fans under 1000rpm, which makes matters worse. (Running fans at higher RPM actually made the temps better)
> 
> And where did you get the cpu over 60° on idle from? His last post says something else, check again. Its actually spot on with the article you linked as being the normal temps. So wtf?



Sorry, you're right, I misread his table 
I was looking at the chip temperature, not the CPU.


----------



## heky (May 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, you're right, I misread his table
> I was looking at the chip temperature, not the CPU.


Yeah, kinda figured that must be the case, because i read it that way at first too, lol.

But seriously, his temps are not that bad if you consider that he is also only running the middle fan on the noctua...


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 25, 2020)

heky said:


> Yeah, kinda figured that must be the case, because i read it that way at first too, lol.
> 
> But seriously, his temps are not that bad if you consider that he is also only running the middle fan on the noctua...


Yeah, it was much worse before. I guess the OP is just concerned about every little detail at this point, as he's encountered a bunch of odd issues all at once. The temperatures seem to be down about 4-5 degrees on idle now and much more in line where it should be.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Yeah, it was much worse before. I guess the OP is just concerned about every little detail at this point, as he's encountered a bunch of odd issues all at once. The temperatures seem to be down about 4-5 degrees on idle now and much more in line where it should be.



yes, I'm just still curious if the SSD temp really has to do with the fact that it is located under the GPU where fans are inactive during idle (won't be the case with the new board), and all the other temps just seem a bit high but to be honest, with all the issues I had, temps were just one thing that I was considering to be a possible root cause.

Once I get my system stable and the performance in line where it should be, I'm sure I won't even check temps anymore 
All the temps during load are perfectly fine.



heky said:


> His case has a glass front so the air has to get sucked trough a really tight gap. The airflow in that case is really bad. Period. Also he is running the fans under 1000rpm, which makes matters worse. (Running fans at higher RPM actually made the temps better)
> 
> And where did you get the cpu over 60° on idle from? His last post says something else, check again. Its actually spot on with the article you linked as being the normal temps. So wtf?


Actually not a bad point, I will try to remove the glass front to see if that changes anything.


----------



## INSTG8R (May 25, 2020)

I just want to chime in. If you have AIDA64 with a license (I do to, need renew it next month) you don’t need HWInfo as well   AIDA can give you all the same info and doesn’t “spike” like HWInfo does.Not too mention running multiple monitoring software polling for readIngs at the same time won’t help anything. I’d look in AIDA to see if it”s seeing your apparently missing RAM voltage. They are amazing at fixing stuff like that quickly if they can. It was showing double my VRAM speed for my 5700XT., asked for some logs, gave me a beta to test, it was fixed and added to the last update..


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> yes, I'm just still curious if the SSD temp really has to do with the fact that it is located under the GPU where fans are inactive during idle (won't be the case with the new board), and all the other temps just seem a bit high but to be honest, with all the issues I had, temps were just one thing that I was considering to be a possible root cause.


Obviously the SSD is going to be a few degrees hotter under the graphics card, even more so if the fans on the card stop at idle.
Of the two NVMe drives I have, the WD Black one is hotter, both at idle and in use, even though it's above the graphics card. However, it's a spot in my system that doesn't get a ton of cooling. That said, it's usually below 40 degrees C at idle and hits 60+ when heavily loaded and 50-60 when in normal use. That said, I don't see any performance abnormalities running five loops of CrystalDiskMark, unlike what you did earlier on so...
However, from your last set of benchmarks it seems more in line with what it should be.


----------



## Fry178 (May 25, 2020)

@heky
just because fans are running below a certain rpm doesn't automatically mean bad flow.
as long as you dont know how many cfm it produces, rpm is only an indicator.

@ecopsorn
whats your min cpu perf level in the power profile? change it to 20 or 30%, if its higher.
yes, it is supposed to be 99%, but it only makes the cpu much more jumpy on boost clocks (and v/temps),
for virtually no increase in "snappiness" of win.
its not like a pro sprinter runs around the house at max speed to get things done quicker,
same way you dont need to run 8 cores at full boost for 5s just because you opened a browser.
even when gaming, i never seen the need for more than about 30% for min.

install aida (trial) and turn of any other monitoring sw, just to check if thats causing it.
to see if you might need a bit higher min load once rig is running, install afterburner (turn off any power related monitoring in settings) ,
play your fav games, and after closing game, check the cpu load (%) and look at the lowest (peak) on the graph.
adding 5-10% to that and set as min cpu per. this makes sure your not increasing v/t at low loads, while getting enough min output for gaming.


----------



## heky (May 25, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @heky
> just because fans are running below a certain rpm doesn't automatically mean bad flow.
> as long as you dont know how many cfm it produces, rpm is only an indicator.


LOL...nothing more to say to that. You can have magical unicorns producing a gazillion CFM behind that glass panel it will do jack! Also, low RPM just can not produce high CFM, basic physics. (At least with the same FAN size)


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> yes, I'm just still curious if the SSD temp really has to do with the fact that it is located under the GPU where fans are inactive during idle (won't be the case with the new board), and all the other temps just seem a bit high but to be honest, with all the issues I had, temps were just one thing that I was considering to be a possible root cause.
> 
> Once I get my system stable and the performance in line where it should be, I'm sure I won't even check temps anymore
> All the temps during load are perfectly fine.
> ...



Yea your NVMe temps looked a bit high but that might be due to different factors including internal case temperature or junk heatsink.  Otherwise your CPU temps seem ok to me.

If I recall correctly typically the first NVMe slot under the CPU is the preferred one to use first as those get the PCIe lanes from the CPU instead of from the chipset.  Check your motherboard manual to be sure.  As you stated your SSD is under your GPU so I imagine it's not getting the coolest air that it can.  I kinda miss having side intake fans.

Gamers Nexus has a case review...
https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2689-corsair-570x-270r-case-review?showall=1









From the list you indicated you're using Corsair QL120's.  I wonder if those fans might not be good enough to pull very well through your case dust filter and limited glass clearance.
Try removing the glass and dust filter to see what different that makes in your airflow.  You might consider getting fans that can deal with a higher static pressure for your intake on that case.


----------



## Fry178 (May 25, 2020)

@heky
so what your saying is, there cant be any difference in cfm, based on the amount of blades and/or shape?
then how is it, that a basic 120 mm arctic cooling fan produces the same cfm (74) at 1100 rpm* LESS,*
than lets say a corsair ML 120?
so i just reduced rpm by 40%, without any loss in cfm/airflow/cooling.

but yeah, lol.


----------



## heky (May 25, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @heky
> so what your saying is, there cant be any difference in cfm, based on the amount of blades and/or shape?
> then how is it, that a basic 120 mm arctic cooling fan produces the same cfm (74) at 1100 rpm* LESS,*
> than lets say a corsair ML 120?
> ...


LOL again...dude you must be smoking some really good shit...


----------



## ecopsorn (May 25, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Vcore it feeds the chip gives me between 0.025-0.05V of extra voltage to play with, so I always set -0.075V with Turbo LLC to try and minimize droop at lo



you lost me there, I have no idea what Turbo LLC is 
I have noted down your post, I did already try undervolting once, but that was with the stock cooler still. Scores did get worse but temps stayed sucky.




INSTG8R said:


> I just want to chime in. If you have AIDA64 with a license (I do to, need renew it next month) you don’t need HWInfo as well



I do have AIDA with a licence, but it shows me much less in terms of temps than hwinfo does. Probably I just don't know where to look for it, but under "Sensor", it is only showing mobo,cpu,pch,gpu and ssd temps. It doesn't show me the case temps, nor the dim temps.
It has been discussed in this thread before that hwinfo polling rate can be set in the options if there's a need for it.



Fry178 said:


> @ecopsorn
> whats your min cpu perf level in the power profile? change it to 20 or 30%, if its higher.
> yes, it is supposed to be 99%, but it only makes the cpu much more jumpy on boost clocks (and v/temps),
> for virtually no increase in "snappiness" of win.
> ...



I will try to set it to 20% until the new mobo is installed. Once I got it all running with the new setup, I can check the cpu load% peak. thanks.



A Computer Guy said:


> Yea your NVMe temps looked a bit high but that might be due to different factors including internal case temperature.
> 
> If I recall correctly typically the first NVMe slot under the CPU is the preferred one to use first as those get the PCIe lanes from the CPU instead of from the chipset.  Check your motherboard manual to be sure.  As you stated your SSD is under your GPU so I imagine it's not getting the coolest air that it can.  I kinda miss having side intake fans.
> From the list you indicated you're using Corsair QL120's.  I wonder if those fans might not be good enough to pull very well through your case dust filter and limited glass clearance.
> Try removing the glass and dust filter to see what different that makes in your airflow.  You might consider getting fans that can deal with a higher static pressure for your intake on that case.


Yes the SSD is in the correct - CPU controlled slot, but with the godlike that I'm getting, the "best" slot to put it in is in the lowest available slot according to this thread.

@everyone
so I removed the glass in front of the case and have AIDA open (no other background apps and no other hw monitoring). The temps are pretty much identical after 20min. win running than with the glass in front.
at 20min. I noted down the temps and removed the dust filter. Without dust filter, everything gets about 2-3°C cooler (again after 20min.) but to be I'm never gonna run it without dust filter . I might just increase the front fan speed a bit.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> ...
> 
> View attachment 155701
> 
> ....



Just a general question?  Does Cinebench even care about RAM speed?  

I can pull a 4940 in CRr20 even with these, perhaps not so good timings in the below screenshot.


http://imgur.com/a/NWzrtIi


----------



## ecopsorn (May 25, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Just a general question? Does Cinebench even care about RAM speed?


at least what I learned through this all and can be confirmed by my ram timing testing, that it cares a little bit but not much at all  - more important for me now are the read/copy/latency results in Aida64. I'm gonna focus on those when the mobo arrives.
And if I won't be happy with the results, I will still be able to return my expensive g.skill royals .


----------



## INSTG8R (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> do have AIDA with a licence, but it shows me much less in terms of temps than hwinfo does. Probably I just don't know where to look for it, but under "Sensor", it is only showing mobo,cpu,pch,gpu and ssd temps. It doesn't show me the case temps, nor the dim temps.


Seriously as a paying customer I would bring up the lack of sensor data here and I assure you they will try to fix it very quickly with a little help from you probably just requiring some data from your MoBo. I had my VRAM issue fixed in under a week by just sending a debug file they asked for AIDA created.


			AIDA64 Discussion Forum


----------



## ecopsorn (May 25, 2020)

and for the fun I disabled all case fans now for 15min .
CPU temp seems unaffected, mobo got 3°C hotter, chipset 10°C, GPU 6°C, Disk  6°C


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> ...
> so I removed the glass in front of the case and have AIDA open (no other background apps and no other hw monitoring). The temps are pretty much identical after 20min. win running than with the glass in front. at 20min. I noted down the temps and removed the dust filter. Without dust filter, everything gets about 2-3°C cooler (again after 20min.) but to be I'm never gonna run it without dust filter . I might just increase the front fan speed a bit.



In a prior case mod I used an automotive filter (didn't have dust filters on Antec 900) and that worked quite well and produced a nice diffuse pattern with the rgb light.  That might have less air flow restriction but don't put that kind of filter it near something that can cause fire.  You could wire frame something with balsa wood and hot-glue to make a better replacement dust filter but well that's a whole other exercise PC customization.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 25, 2020)

INSTG8R said:


> Seriously as a paying customer I would bring up the lack of sensor data here and I assure you they will try to fix it very quickly with a little help from you probably just requiring some data from your MoBo. I had my VRAM issue fixed in under a week by just sending a debug file they asked for AIDA created.
> 
> 
> AIDA64 Discussion Forum


will change the board anyway, I assume the new board is covered with the sensor data than


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> MSI x570 Godlike - don’t flame me for overkill reasons
> 
> .....



My god man stop torturing us!  Keep the new RAM, drop a 3950x in that beast and be done with it.


----------



## INSTG8R (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> will change the board anyway, I assume the new board is covered with the sensor data than


And if it isn’t you can have it added. I’ve been using it since it was Everest because of the LCD support for my G15 and now my current G19s where I have all my sensor data Is displayed however I want. My main screen and GPU pages  for example. Bottom line they will add your board if it’s not there. I happily renew my license every year because of the great features and product support


----------



## Fry178 (May 25, 2020)

@heky
i rather be wasted while i know what im talking about, you clearly dont.
i have a rig that is completely in audible at idle/low load (below 8 dba), while temps with a 280 aio
are within 2*C of custom loops running same chip, all with fans running around 400-500 rpm.
so yeah, i have no clue.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 25, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> you lost me there, I have no idea what Turbo LLC is
> I have noted down your post, I did already try undervolting once, but that was with the stock cooler still. Scores did get worse but temps stayed sucky.



Basically, LLC compensates for droop. Say you have the CPU running at 4GHz, 1.2V. While you're idle, everything looks normal. But when you fire up a full load benchmark like Prime95 Small for example, Vcore might drop to say 1.125V when the CPU is at 100% load. And so whether you're stable at 4GHz isn't dependent on the voltage that you've set (1.2V), it's dependent on the actual voltage after droop (1.125V). That's droop, and is engineered into VRM design. 

LLC usually has a bunch of settings which vary from board to board, from default to really aggressive. The more aggressive you set LLC, the less you droop, but you increase the chance that you get an errant, larger and larger spike in Vcore in the instant when that benchmark begins and load is applied. Say that you still have that 1.2V Vcore, but now you set LLC on a relatively high setting; now when you fire up P95, your Vcore might only drop to 1.175V instead, even though your actual Vcore is still the same (1.2V) as before. But at maximum LLC settings, the spike introduced by LLC can become so large as to become a concern for chip longevity, especially if you're already running a fixed overclock with high voltage on any chip. In a split second when the benchmark starts, 1.2V may jump all the way up to 1.3V then immediately back down to 1.175V.

Because Matisse is self-regulating and always adjusting its Vcore (sub-0.3V) at idle, there's a lot that we don't know about how LLC or undervolting affects idle (from what I can see, it makes very little difference). But as with any other CPU, once that chip is at full sustained load, the same principles regarding Vcore, LLC and droop apply. 

As a theoretical example, if you try -0.05V offset/High LLC and Stock Vcore/Default LLC, they may come out to the exact same load voltage and performance, but one runs tamer at idle.

Because we don't know exactly how Matisse is working at stock, it's hard to tell how these settings are working, but in my rig, the difference between -0.075V/Turbo and 0/Default is night and day. One is 10-15C cooler at idle, and always sounds like it's actually idle, while the other constantly sounds like it's ramping to 100% load on nothing. And I lose no performance at load compared to stock without PBO. I prefer to run -0.05V/High now for less aggressive LLC, it functions much the same and doesn't spike.

Basically, the issue with what a lot of people are doing with "undervolting" in the SFF space is that they're reducing the PPT value, or setting an aggressive undervolt (eg. -0.075V) without any LLC. If you reduce PPT, you simply prompt the chip to reduce clocks and performance, which may be beneficial in sub-10 litre cases where you can only make do with a crappy NH-L9a, but is otherwise undesirable. And undervolting without LLC, as we know, will reduce clocks and performance if Vcore is allowed to droop below the essential voltage that it needs for a specific clockspeed.

But every chip is different, so it's up to you to explore the voltage limits of yours and thus, how much undervolting room you have. LLC performance depends on the board too; some boards may take an extremely aggressive stance, while others may require max LLC just to make any difference to Vdroop. If you aren't too bothered about the idle behaviour, just leave it as it is. As long as 100% load temperatures don't reach 80C, you're fine.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> ....you lost me there, I have no idea what Turbo LLC is ....



Some links you may find interesting.

Here is a video regarding undervolting.  (Btw using the MSI Godlike.)









How to Kill Your CPU with "Safe" Voltages









The final word on idle voltages for 3rd Gen ryzen

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cbls9g

When you decide to manually overclock Ryzen you are throwing away the means which the CPU power is automatically regulated and enabling yourself to damage your CPU if you don't know what you are doing.  Just make sure you do as much research as you can before hand and try to corroborate your findings between your search results.  Otherwise have fun with it.



ecopsorn said:


> @tabascosauz @A Computer Guy
> Thanks, I will see how it behaves when the mobo arrives.
> regarding the case fans, I did even put a tiny feather in front of every fan to confirm that the direction of airflow is correct. Even when I put them at max speed 1600rpm, temps only get down a little bit.
> 
> ...





I did have a thought about your fan speeds.  Try making your outs faster than your in-s.  I realize this might create negative air pressure however if the air from the GPU is recirculating the decrease in pressure between your intakes and outtakes may help move the warmer air away from your GPU faster reducing the re-circulation of warmer air.  If this works you may get more even temps above and below the GPU.   Also some negative internal pressure might help offset the static pressure from the filter making it easier for your intakes.  Anyway just something to try.

Also after looking at your case design perhaps make the bottom front fan a bit faster than the top two to help create a pressure differential between the bottom and top parts of the case.


----------



## heky (May 26, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @heky
> i rather be wasted while i know what im talking about, you clearly dont.
> i have a rig that is completely in audible at idle/low load (below 8 dba), while temps with a 280 aio
> are within 2*C of custom loops running same chip, all with fans running around 400-500 rpm.
> so yeah, i have no clue.


Dude, stop posting irrelevant information. You are water-cooling, both CPU and GPU, the OP is NOT! Your heat directly exhausts the case from the radiators to the outside, so it doesn't heat the internals and the gpu doesn't dump that much heat to surrounding components. Stop mixing apples and oranges. Also, i've built hundreds of rigs, water and air cooled, since the Intel 286 33Mhz era, so stop acting like you are the only one who knows what he is talking about. Oh and just for the record, your Ryzen temps are not comparable to custom loops because of your super duper Fans, but because of the die density of Ryzen chips and the inability to transfer the heat away fast enough.


----------



## yoyo2004 (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Oh man, lol yes populated it now and there we go, I did install on GPT, one possible explanation for boot times gone, noooo
> View attachment 154524
> I found the CSM option now, it was right there in front of my eyes lol - but guess what, it was already DISABLED  - so SSD also screwed?



I don't know If anyone mentioned this, but you didn't populate the right drive. Instead you did populate a USB device. You should populate the SSD / main drive.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Some links you may find interesting.
> 
> Here is a video regarding undervolting.  (Btw using the MSI Godlike.)
> 
> ...


good hints about the fans, will try that out, actually before your post I did set the top fan rpm much higher just to try. I have a strange hissing noise from the fans when the run and I think it could have something to do with the pressure. Anyway will try. Noise reduction is a high priority for me

about cpu OC, i know that at least for me it won’t make sense and I won’t do it. Also PBO has like no effect on my 3800 so I let it be disabled.

just got another issue now, damn godlike board is sold out everywhere and I have to call the vendor what’s up... if i order  now i get it in 2-4 weeks which is unacceptable. I hope they got one on the way already. Otherwise I might have to switch to gigabyte xtreme after all.... the cold boot issues reported everywhere make me think twice though



yoyo2004 said:


> I don't know If anyone mentioned this, but you didn't populate the right drive. Instead you did populate a USB device. You should populate the SSD / main drive.


Lol really, gonna check tonight.
But speaking about it, I did reinstall windows and I reformated the whole drive, I never even saw an option to select a different kind if install??
Anyway slow boot time issue is resolved


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Otherwise I might have to switch to gigabyte xtreme after all.... the cold boot issues reported everywhere make me think twice though


Everywhere? According to one of my mates at Gigabyte, they don't have any unusual RMA counts on any X570 boards.
I know two guys here had issues with their Aorus Master's that just stopped working all of a sudden, but I have also seen MSI boards with the same behaviour elsewhere.
If we're to believe the rant linked below, it can affect just about any AMD system and there's supposedly a fix for it, but much of this reads like nonsense to me.








						Clear CMOS Problem of Ryzen X370 , B350 , X470 , B450 , X570 , B550
					

Clear CMOS Problem X370 , B350 , X470 , B450 , X570 , B550  － The cause in which clear CMOS fails － A turbo boost of Ryzen 2700X is set as 4.3GHz. But when using 4.2GHz, more than 1.40 V is needed. When it was an error using Ryzen, BIOS tries to set CMOS as default. When starting, the problem...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Fry178 (May 26, 2020)

@TheLostSwede
enough ppl having problems with Gb boards, especially after they switched to dual bios.
this affects intel as well, so not caused by amd/x570.

having weekly issues like random reboots/cold boot issues (especially after unplugging power),
ram from qvl not working, yet ram not on the list does,
while ALL hw (beside board) worked fine with two (none Gb) sub 200$ x570 boards, shows it cant be anything else.

and more than once has Gb support acknowledged to a user they know there are issues,
only to have the next person saying "nothing wrong", all works as expected.
at least now i know what Gb thinks of customers buying +200$ hardware.


@heky
unless you know me personally, keep any "bro/dude" crap to yourself, im not your wasted friend that cant find his car.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Everywhere? According to one of my mates at Gigabyte, they don't have any unusual RMA counts on any X570 boards.
> I know two guys here had issues with their Aorus Master's that just stopped working all of a sudden, but I have also seen MSI boards with the same behaviour elsewhere.
> If we're to believe the rant linked below, it can affect just about any AMD system and there's supposedly a fix for it, but much of this reads like nonsense to me.
> 
> ...



@TheLostSwede 
Of course you only find the negatives in the forums and not the countless positives, but I've read some threads where even in 2020 they had the typical gigabyte cold boot issues. There seemed to be fixes but that was a reason why I wanted to go MSI instead.



Fry178 said:


> @TheLostSwede
> enough ppl having problems with Gb boards, especially after they switched to dual bios.
> this affects intel as well, so not caused by amd/x570.
> 
> ...


@Fry178 
if the vendor really lets me wait up to 4 weeks, I really can't go with the MSI one, gotta bet on my luck again than haha. I could have the giga board by tomorrow.




tabascosauz said:


> Basically, LLC compensates for droop. Say you have the CPU running at 4GHz, 1.2V. While you're idle, everything looks normal. But when you fire up a full load benchmark like Prime95 Small for example, Vcore might drop to say 1.125V when the CPU is at 100% load. And so whether you're stable at 4GHz isn't dependent on the voltage that you've set (1.2V), it's dependent on the actual voltage after droop (1.125V). That's droop, and is engineered into VRM design.
> 
> LLC usually has a bunch of settings which vary from board to board, from default to really aggressive. The more aggressive you set LLC, the less you droop, but you increase the chance that you get an errant, larger and larger spike in Vcore in the instant when that benchmark begins and load is applied. Say that you still have that 1.2V Vcore, but now you set LLC on a relatively high setting; now when you fire up P95, your Vcore might only drop to 1.175V instead, even though your actual Vcore is still the same (1.2V) as before. But at maximum LLC settings, the spike introduced by LLC can become so large as to become a concern for chip longevity, especially if you're already running a fixed overclock with high voltage on any chip. In a split second when the benchmark starts, 1.2V may jump all the way up to 1.3V then immediately back down to 1.175V.
> 
> ...



Now I finally get that LLC is load line calibration . To be honest I think this stuff is a little out of my league, I don't wanna make matters worse by tweaking the wrong stuff, but I did watch some very informative bullzoid vids about it.

LOLz - I just realized that the power plan was "Ultimate Performance" for the last 2 days.... MSI Dragon Center Scenario switched that thing!!! holy moly are those sneaky software packages. Selecting "Extreme Performance" in Dragon Center changes the power plan, duuh.
That means that all the temps I recently reported were with the Ultimate Performance Power plan, 

@Fry178 
To my surprise, the normal balanced power plan has the minprocessorstate at 5% whereas the AMD balanced plan has 99%.
So I'm back to AMD balance plan and change it now to 20% min processor state and 100% maxi processor state, correct?


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> ...
> just got another issue now, damn godlike board is sold out everywhere and I have to call the vendor what’s up... if i order  now i get it in 2-4 weeks which is unacceptable. I hope they got one on the way already. Otherwise I might have to switch to gigabyte xtreme after all.... the cold boot issues reported everywhere make me think twice though
> ...



Why not keep your current board if your issues are resolved?



ecopsorn said:


> ....
> LOLz - I just realized that the power plan was "Ultimate Performance" for the last 2 days.... MSI Dragon Center Scenario switched that thing!!! holy moly are those sneaky software packages. Selecting "Extreme Performance" in Dragon Center changes the power plan, duuh.
> That means that all the temps I recently reported were with the Ultimate Performance Power plan,
> ....



You CPU temps seem ok.   Are you still worried about them?

You should use the Ryzen power plan that came installed with AMD chipset drivers to get the best out of the processor.
In fact if it's not on your list be sure to install the latest chipset driver too on Windows 10 ver 19.09

Actually use this power plan instead.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/1usmus-custom-power-plan-for-ryzen-3000-zen-2-processors/
If I recall properly there were 2 plans that come with this...the one you want is "1usmus Ryzen Universal"

Also in your BIOS/UEFI ensure the CPPC option are enabled and set to use preferred cores.  I forgot what it was called exactly but it might be labeled a bit differently between bios vendors.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Why not keep your current board if your issues are resolved?
> 
> You CPU temps seem ok.   Are you still worried about them?
> 
> ...



Regarding the mobo replacement. I'm really not satisfied with the ram OC, can't even get the slightest tighter timings stable. I'm hoping to get a better experience with a new mobo. Besides that, yes I'm still a bit worried about the idle temps of mobo, chipset, etc. and hope to get it down with a new mobo as well.
I know that I will again probably dump money in something that is not really required, yes lots of problems are solved but I spent so much time so far (and you guys as well), I just wanna be able to get the most stable and fast system that I can and I believe I need a new mobo for it. The random strange behaviors, not restarting correctly and stuff is hopefully fixed as well than. And speaking of the overkill mobo - I'm not compromising anymore that's why I choose flagships, hell I can't travel this year anyway cause of Corona, so I better invest in the computer .

Regarding CPU temp, no not worried anymore though still some ppl report -10°C idle temps lower than I have. As long as cinebench gives decent results, I know that it boosts correctly and at load I won't have problems anymore as I used to have with the stock cooler.

I always installed the latest chipset driver directly from AMD and used the balanced power plan that comes with it. It was completely new to me that Dragon Center changes plans when u set scenarios haha.

So are you saying I should go with the 1usmus plan instead of the AMD Ryzen Balanced? Haven't read the thread yet

UPDATE:
Vendor has confirmed now that the board will be sent today or tomorrow the latest, that means on Friday I'm gonna have the Gigabyte Xtreme and the MSI Godlike at my house haha.
So which one to keep 
What I've got out of reviews is that both are excellent overpriced boards 
+ Xtreme: no PCH fan
+ Xtreme: Design
+ Xtreme: Better thermals?
- Xtreme: Price a bit higher
+ MSI: supposedly better ram OC possible
+ MSI: rgb sync because I have an MSI card already
+ MSI: No reportings of cold boot issues 
+ MSI: cheaper
- MSI: PCH fan - acc. to reviews it won't turn on often though


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Regarding the mobo replacement. I'm really not satisfied with the ram OC, can't even get the slightest tighter timings stable. I'm hoping to get a better experience with a new mobo. Besides that, yes I'm still a bit worried about the idle temps of mobo, chipset, etc. and hope to get it down with a new mobo as well.
> I know that I will again probably dump money in something that is not really required, yes lots of problems are solved but I spent so much time so far (and you guys as well), I just wanna be able to get the most stable and fast system that I can and I believe I need a new mobo for it. The random strange behaviors, not restarting correctly and stuff is hopefully fixed as well than. And speaking of the overkill mobo - I'm not compromising anymore that's why I choose flagships, hell I can't travel this year anyway cause of Corona, so I better invest in the computer .



Custom builds are "custom" depending on the users preference not just for your build but also for your experience you want to get out of it.  Do what you please.   Ram OC can vary widely and is highly depending on the combination of motherboard, CPU, and RAM.   How much $$ you want to throw at it is up to you. 



ecopsorn said:


> Regarding CPU temp, no not worried anymore though still some ppl report -10°C idle temps lower than I have. As long as cinebench gives decent results, I know that it boosts correctly and at load I won't have problems anymore as I used to have with the stock cooler.



Don't forget comparing your temps with an other person is not exactly apples to apples since your not both in the same controlled environment and likely with other variances such as case, fan, configurations, different hardware and firmware and such.



ecopsorn said:


> I always installed the latest chipset driver directly from AMD and used the balanced power plan that comes with it.



Great!



ecopsorn said:


> So are you saying I should go with the 1usmus plan instead of the AMD Ryzen Balanced? Haven't read the thread yet



Not a requirement but I think my system works a bit better because of it.



ecopsorn said:


> .....
> UPDATE:
> Vendor has confirmed now that the board will be sent today or tomorrow the latest, that means on Friday I'm gonna have the Gigabyte Xtreme and the MSI Godlike at my house haha.
> So which one to keep



  Don't have experience with either but I'd go for the Godlike.  Your also invested in corsair from what I recall in your first post and that has the Corsair integration into that motherboard from what I saw in the manual.


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## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Don't have experience with either but I'd go for the Godlike.  Your also invested in corsair from what I recall in your first post and that has the Corsair integration into that motherboard from what I saw in the manual.


what exact corsair integration you mean, sensors from commander pro or something?


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> what exact corsair integration you mean, sensors from commander pro or something?



I think it had what was described as a lighting node pro onboard so you can hook your Corsair RGB fan controller to it.   I didn't see how to hookup the Godlike on Zottys iCue diagrams on corsair forums so I'm not sure how you expand beyond what's shown in the manual but there is also an additional warning in the manual that might complicate setup if your going balls to the wall with RGB stuff.  Go peek at the manual maybe you can make sense of it depending on what you currently have and plan to use.


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## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> I think it had what was described as a lighting node pro onboard so you can hook your Corsair RGB fan controller to it.   I didn't see how to hookup the Godlike on Zottys iCue diagrams on corsair forums so I'm not sure how you expand beyond what's shown in the manual but there is also an additional warning in the manual that might complicate setup if your going balls to the wall with RGB stuff.  Go peek at the manual maybe you can make sense of it depending on what you currently have and plan to use.


Good point, I have the whole thing ligntning node pro, commander pro, etc. I’m gonna check it out


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## Fry178 (May 26, 2020)

You can use the amd balanced or 1usmus plan.
i prefer amd right now, 1usmus one hasnt been updated since nov last year,
but new drivers where released.
both times you want to set a couple of things in bios to on (vs auto).

either way, set min to something like 20-30% and your fine.
for me its a little easier to switch (power) profiles as i have a UPS, so win thinks i have a battery and shows the icon like if its a lappy.
this lets me switch profiles quickly, so i setup power saving with 0/50%, and balanced at 330/100%.
gets me less power consumption/heat when im surfing/streaming etc.

Yeah, get the msi.
On the ones i had, if chipset fan was set to silent, i rarely turns on usually only when benching/running full load.
A couple of "cheap" msi boards (x570) behaved better than the top Gb boards like master/ultra, so i wouldn't even "try" it.
unless of course you like to inflict pain on yourself, and risk having to swap boards again, if there is an issue


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## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

Will do, I don’t think I will need the corsair stufff, I checked the manual and it could be useful if I hadn’t purchased a commander pro already which is running well.
The article feom 1usmus is gold! Definitely will check out his power plan and the bios settings.

I learned a lot the last weeks, lots of fun  that’s why I don’t mind the money spent. My next computer build will however be planned ahead with more research than the current one 

But one more thing: why do mobo manufacturers even build chipset drivers if everyone recommends the AMD/intel ones? 
are certain manufacturers drivers better than others (this is just to please my thirst of knowledge)


----------



## Fry178 (May 26, 2020)

they do gear them towards their hw, but i prefer having newer drivers, rather than a 1 y old one specific for my board.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 26, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Everywhere? According to one of my mates at Gigabyte, they don't have any unusual RMA counts on any X570 boards.
> I know two guys here had issues with their Aorus Master's that just stopped working all of a sudden, but I have also seen MSI boards with the same behaviour elsewhere.
> If we're to believe the rant linked below, it can affect just about any AMD system and there's supposedly a fix for it, but much of this reads like nonsense to me.
> 
> ...


Seconded, I have been locked in 0D and worse boot loops that would not clear via CLR CMOS on a couple of Asus board's and they took hardware out CLR CMOS tactics to get booting again all on x450-470 board's so it's not new I don't think.
In each case for me it was always related to memory tuning, either poorly supported memory trying to get near it's rated speed or pushing for that extra few percent, then lockup and big issues getting back into the bios at all.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> But one more thing: why do mobo manufacturers even build chipset drivers if everyone recommends the AMD/intel ones?
> are certain manufacturers drivers better than others (this is just to please my thirst of knowledge)


They don't, they just package the AMD drivers into their own installers, for some unfathomable reason.
Always use chipset drivers directly from the manufacturer when possible.
The only thing this might not apply to is audio drivers.

@ecopsorn did you check out this spreadsheet? It should allow you to compare just about all the features of both boards.


			https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/htmlview?sle=true&pru=AAABcnYdwao*vvBK6APEMI7hg4YKHl-UPw#gid=2112472504


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## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> ...
> But one more thing: why do mobo manufacturers even build chipset drivers if everyone recommends the AMD/intel ones?
> are certain manufacturers drivers better than others (this is just to please my thirst of knowledge)
> ...



It's more like repackaging them.  Often the motherboard vendor drivers provided can be outdated in cases of simple repackaging (or even simply archive copies) they distribute with their motherboards since users may not know how to find them otherwise.  Ever get a motherboard driver CD?

In some cases they may tweak the drivers/software for whatever reason (more so for laptops).  Sometimes there are differences between OEM chip drivers and vendor specific drivers.  ( Realtek audio drivers for example. )  In cases of OEM drivers you may not get access all features for your integrated device.

In my case the only driver/software I actually needed from my AM4 motherboard vendor in my build was for Audio and RGB.  In the case for RGB the software/driver actually will update another firmware on the motherboard so if you have special components and/or features onboard you might need to consider that.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> In the case for RGB the software/driver actually will update another firmware on the motherboard so if you have special components and/or features onboard you might need to consider that.


There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
In any case the chipset driver is the first driver I install in a fresh windows.
I know that none of these software packages are particularely easy on resources but I need them nevertheless. Won’t install anything though before I have my performance where I want it to be with proper ram tweaking.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
> In any case the chipset driver is the first driver I install in a fresh windows.
> I know that none of these software packages are particularely easy on resources but I need them nevertheless. Won’t install anything though before I have my performance where I want it to be with proper ram tweaking.



Someone may have given you these links already (sorry too lazy to look back into thread)
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-memory-tweaking-overclocking-guide/
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ryzen-dram-calculator/
But the number one thing that helped the most was simply finding others with the same or similar hardware and trying those settings to get me close to where I needed to be.
Good luck!

Love it or hate it you can use https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/ to do a quick and dirty test if your OC is going the right direction.  You may see see in some cases the performance of other components change.  Rather than looking at pure memory performance (other tools for that) you can glimpse at overall system performance and see additional impacts of your OC.



ecopsorn said:


> There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
> In any case the chipset driver is the first driver I install in a fresh windows.
> I know that none of these software packages are particularely easy on resources but I need them nevertheless. Won’t install anything though before I have my performance where I want it to be with proper ram tweaking.



The RGB one was pretty sneaky.  I thought it was just software I didn't need only to find out later in some far corner of the internet forums that it actually did a firmware update.


----------



## Fry178 (May 26, 2020)

@ecopsorn
yes, chipset driver, reboot, then sata, reboot, then usb, reboot and then gpu,
and i usually wont go online for updates until those are all installed.
i would shut it down afterwards and do a full backup of the OS drive with sw like True Image.
this way if anything goes "wrong", you dont have to worry about reinstalling everything,
and recovery from ssd (even external) usually doesnt take more than 2-5 min.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
> In any case the chipset driver is the first driver I install in a fresh windows.
> I know that none of these software packages are particularely easy on resources but I need them nevertheless. Won’t install anything though before I have my performance where I want it to be with proper ram tweaking.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
> ...



I think razor synapse maybe related to Polychrome Sync.  It may be different for others but here is what mine looked like and upon opening it may attempt a firmware update.


http://imgur.com/a/RJ9zkSO


----------



## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Someone may have given you these links already (sorry too lazy to look back into thread)
> https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-memory-tweaking-overclocking-guide/
> https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ryzen-dram-calculator/
> But the number one thing that helped the most was simply finding others with the same or similar hardware and trying those settings to get me close to where I needed to be.
> ...



thanks for the links, regarding OC I'm all set with plenty of guides that have been provided throughout the thread hehe.
The userbenchmark.com site is new to me though, will have a look.



Fry178 said:


> yes, chipset driver, reboot, then sata, reboot, then usb, reboot and then gpu,
> and i usually wont go online for updates until those are all installed.
> i would shut it down afterwards and do a full backup of the OS drive with sw like True Image.
> this way if anything goes "wrong", you dont have to worry about reinstalling everything,
> and recovery from ssd (even external) usually doesnt take more than 2-5 min.


I do it like that as well except that I was used to do windows updates first after chipset and than the rest. Can switch that around and unplug my ethernet at the beginning.
I don't have any sata drives in my system and I actually was planning to disable sata in the bios completely. Just have my m2 and my server. That's a stupid question but just to confirm, it doesn't make sense to make sata driver updates when sata is not used and disabled, right?   
For the rest, I do exactly that and I'm having fast boot disabled until all is clean and installed.

Regarding OS images, oh man the last time I did that was 15 year ago, it came in handy sometimes but when I finally decided to format c again, it always seemed better to me to work with a fresh, already updated build of windows instead of loading the image and doing updates than, but that was 15 years ago, what's the status on that nowadays? I don't have any image licences anymore so I'd need to buy one. It would definitely save me time when I screw installation up haha.




TheLostSwede said:


> View attachment 156789



I'm aware of those Firmware update settings in iCUE, but aren't those firmware updates for the devices themselves? For example, I have lightning node pro, lightning node pro and commander pro. Actually since the new win install, iCUE thinks I have HYDRO X as well though which I don't. I did try to update it for all 3 but it always said I have the latest version installed


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## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> ....
> Regarding OS images, oh man the last time I did that was 15 year ago, it came in handy sometimes but when I finally decided to format c again, it always seemed better to me to work with a fresh, already updated build of windows instead of loading the image and doing updates than, but that was 15 years ago, what's the status on that nowadays? I don't have any image licences anymore so I'd need to buy one. It would definitely save me time when I screw installation up haha.
> ....



Make the Windows 10 USB stick installer with the latest version of Windows 10 ver 19.09.  (minimum 18.03)  That's probably the best option.  It works well. God forbid don't use some old CD copy Windows 10 ver 17.xx bought from newegg then try to upgrade from that cause that will not work well at all. (been there done that)

Once you get Windows 10 on your NVMe and you want to reset it back to square one it pretty much a breeze using the reset option in Windows.   I usually do a fresh install, test all the drivers and software for compatibility issues, benchmark and oc, the reset the os for the final configuration.  As long as you don't damage your recovery partition in your OC testing, the OS reset should be easy and not a problem.  otherwise the usb install is a good fallback.

Be prepared that you may likely damage your OS install as you go through the process of testing RAM overclock and you BSOD all over the place.  
So once you prove your memory OC stable reset your OS and start clean then activate your OS when you're done playing around.


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## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Make the Windows 10 USB stick installer with the latest version of Windows 10 ver 19.09.  (minimum 18.03)  That's probably the best option.  It works well. God forbid don't use some old CD copy Windows 10 ver 17.xx bought from newegg then try to upgrade from that cause that will not work well at all. (been there done that)
> 
> Once you get Windows 10 on your NVMe and you want to reset it back to squire one it pretty much a breeze.   I usually do a fresh install, test all the drivers and software for compatibility issues, benchmark and oc, the reset the os for the final configuration.  As long as you don't damage your recovery partition in your OC testing, the OS reset should be easy and not a problem.
> 
> Be prepared that you may likely damage your OS instillation as you go through the process of testing RAM overclock and you BSOD all over the place so once you prove your memory OC stable reset your OS and start clean.



ah so basically u use the windows recovery feature for the second clean install, I see. This never came to my mind that I could actually damage OS while doing RAM OC, that might explain loooots of my issues I had with the old ram because I did a ton of tuning lol.
good hint.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 26, 2020)

Oh yea if you didn't know HWiNFO64 and iCue don't play well together.  Just don't run both at the same time that's all, in my case all the commander pro sensors stop working.  HWiNFO64 can read fan and temp sensors from Commander Pro even after you close iCue or didn't start iCue on login.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 26, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Oh yea if you didn't know HWiNFO64 and iCue don't play well together.  Just don't run both at the same time that's all, in my case all the commander pro sensors stop working.  HWiNFO64 can read fan and temp sensors from Commander Pro even after you close iCue or didn't start iCue on login.


Jep I know that, same here. Also Ryzen Master criples iCUE hehe


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 26, 2020)

On my Ryzen system I use icue only and do all tinkering in the bios.... 0 issues on either Asus hero or Gigabyte master motherboards.


The only thing that makes me sad about my Master dying is I could have gotten an Extreme for what I paid for both mobos 


I am interested to see how the Godlike goes for you... I did do one build with the Strix E and thought it was pretty good but I didn't do much tinkering either most the systems I do for people I leave stock due to them having no clue what a bios is.

I did a msi unify build as well and thought it was pretty damn good so the Godlike should be even better. Other than the Master and Hero it's probably my favorite board I worked with. @ecopsorn


----------



## Fry178 (May 27, 2020)

I would leave fast boot off, even after finish install.
especially once you get issues and you cant get into bios etc, is when ppl decide saving a second or two wasnt worth it.
a proper setup and install drivers for nvme/controller will virtually not see a difference in boot time anyway.

i would always activate all ports in bios (ethernet/sata etc) even if you dont use them (maybe audio if u use a dedicated card).\
once you installed windows (no drivers), you can turn off anything you wont use, but in case you need to later,
you wont have problems getting it to work, just install its driver.

using win restore/reset makes not much sense to recover win after playing around, as it takes longer since all data comes/goes to the same drive.
get the trial for True Image (works 30 days), and do a full (single) image of the os right after clean install.
anything goes wrong, no matter if drivers/updates etc, it takes not even 5 min and win is back up and running.

i usually do an image after all drivers, all updates, after tweaking os/settings towards hw etc.
this way i have any problems (update messing up/ infection etc), it takes me 2 min to load acronis (F11),
and restore a previous image. even with all stuff installed (2nd drive for games tho).
part of the reason why i still have a sata ssd, so i can image my os nvme/restore, instead of usb drive (still copy 1st and 5 or 6th image to another backup drive),
with OS drive right now being 40g b, takes less than 2 min to image (i use a 2nd nvme to save, than transfer to sata for storage/recovery)

Acronis


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 27, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> ....
> using win restore/reset makes not much sense to recover win after playing around, as it takes longer since all data comes/goes to the same drive.
> ....



Acronis yes can be a nice piece of software for imaging (I have used it a lot) but Windows 10 reset is plenty fast and simple when using NVMe, even with regular SSD too I would argue.  The time it takes is insignificant compared to messing around with anything else when using using an SSD.   There is little point in imaging a vanilla OS install unless you have a specific use case.

Instead image (for recovery) the install you are actually likely to use if you need recovery, for example after your finalized setup, after testing and installing all the drivers and programs you know you're going to use, and after activating Windows.

But that's just my 2c.


----------



## Fry178 (May 27, 2020)

fact is, once i have an image, i have it.
i dont having to worry it not being "100%"ok.
corruption can happen/stay after reset, but never had an image that i couldn't restore in the past 13y.
and sure, it might be quick to reset if using ssd, but a restore from a second drive will always be the fastest.
and doing an image before updates, if OS gets messes up (happens more often then not), a restore takes me back to a state i know of,
takes max 2 min, definitely better than dealing with fixing/repairing stuff.
especially when using the boot loader, i can boot to true image os straight after POST.

just thinking about a drive failing (for whatever reason, not jsut age), i can put any drive in my rig, restore the image,
and im up and running 10 min later. not gonna happen with the OS doing normal backups/restore points.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 27, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> fact is, once i have an image, i have it.
> i dont having to worry it not being "100%"ok.
> corruption can happen/stay after reset, but never had an image that i couldn't restore in the past 13y.
> and sure, it might be quick to reset if using ssd, but a restore from a second drive will always be the fastest.
> ...



I don't think we have any contention regarding the use of Acronis or the use of secondary drives.  My understanding of the OP's use case is simply they will be learning the ropes for a bit (having self-admitted noob status in the 1st post - nothing wrong with that btw) for they will be figuring out how to setup and tweak their PC first.  It can be a lot of fun.

Afterwards they will have a better idea how to configure their PC hardware and software and presumably will be wanting to start "fresh" to erase any setup mistakes and/or OS damage they may have created in their endeavor to learn.

In this use case the 500% overhead needed with imaging before they have learned the basics of what they need to know - isn't very useful.  The time it takes to reset (via NVMe or USB or whatever) won't matter because the point will be to start from the beginning again from what the OP has learned, then the prospect of creating an image is genuinely useful and all the benefits thereof.


----------



## Fry178 (May 27, 2020)

lol, never said any of that, just pointed out its easier and saves time, especially if your mess/trying things.
there is no time saved in having to reinstall win and all drivers and updates, if something goes wrong.
its a lot easier to do a clean install, imaging it, and THEN start messing with it, and worst case or after all testing is done,
to restore (2 min) to get a fresh start, instead of reinstall/drivers/updates, completely ignoring basic settings that get lost (win theme/customization etc).
once its setup in acronis imaging or restoring will take a few min, not sure what overhead are you taking about.
and anyone having probs using T.I., probably shouldn't be messing with anything else (sw/hw).
and again, will also be helpful if there is a drive failure, and a new drive needs to be installed.

last but not least, its not up to you. i gave info to the poster, he/she can decide.
we're here to help, not make guessing decisions what someone might want (or not).


----------



## ecopsorn (May 27, 2020)

@A Computer Guy @Fry178 
Hehe no reason to fight u both have valid points and it helped me to think about it.
It is just best practice sharded and I appreciate that. Having options and seeing the different views of all u guys is all I need to decide for myself on how I wanna tackle it.
If there is anything unclear I’m gonna ask anyway


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 27, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> lol, never said any of that, just pointed out its easier and saves time, especially if your mess/trying things.
> there is no time saved in having to reinstall win and all drivers and updates, if something goes wrong.
> its a lot easier to do a clean install, imaging it, and THEN start messing with it, and worst case or after all testing is done,
> to restore (2 min) to get a fresh start, instead of reinstall/drivers/updates, completely ignoring basic settings that get lost (win theme/customization etc).
> ...



I have no idea where your comment "its not up to you" came from but it's 100% bs.  
He/she can decide of course.  I don't know what you are hung up on.

You didn't understand my points of agreement and disagreement.  Doesn't matter...moving on.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 27, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> I did have a thought about your fan speeds. Try making your outs faster than your in-s. I realize this might create negative air pressure however if the air from the GPU is recirculating the decrease in pressure between your intakes and outtakes may help move the warmer air away from your GPU faster reducing the re-circulation of warmer air. If this works you may get more even temps above and below the GPU. Also some negative internal pressure might help offset the static pressure from the filter making it easier for your intakes. Anyway just something to try.
> 
> Also after looking at your case design perhaps make the bottom front fan a bit faster than the top two to help create a pressure differential between the bottom and top parts of the case.


@A Computer Guy
I haven't tried the negative pressure yet, but having the bottom fan turn around 200rpm faster helped a bunch in terms of noise. I did have this strange hissing noise in the case and I'm sure it was some odd pressure difference. I'm already very happy getting rid of that 
I'd wish I could do a smoke study in there haha


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 27, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> @A Computer Guy
> I haven't tried the negative pressure yet, but having the bottom fan turn around 200rpm faster helped a bunch in terms of noise. I did have this strange hissing noise in the case and I'm sure it was some odd pressure difference. I'm already very happy getting rid of that



That's interesting news!   I don't think I have ever heard a hissing noise from a case before.  I was mighty tempted to buy that case you have but was unsure of the air flow due to the glass and filter at the time.  I would be super interested to know if the other fan adjustments help with the internal case temps or not.   I have another theory that using something for air deflection at strategic places in the case might help direct the airflow better and push the warmer air out from around the GPU.  You might experiment with cardboard pieces and if something works get a custom cut piece of acrylic.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 27, 2020)

@ecopsorn I've got a Dark Rock Pro 4 on the way, and am probably going to move my 3700X setup out of the M1 and into my TJ08 instead. The DRP4 and D15 are direct, comparable competitors and should make for some close comparisons, and my 3700X can boost closer to a lower binned 3800X both on ST and MT if I do some tricks with PBO. My concern is still that every one of your sensors seem to read on the high side by roughly the same margin; if not an issue of ambient temperature or case airflow, then I'm not sure what other culprits might exist.

My TJ08 has a Noctua Industrial NF-A14 in the front and regular NF-F12 in the back, both of which pushes plenty of CFM with or without the dust filter, but I can turn both off and we'll see how much of a theoretical difference having 0 airflow will make.

The notion that the tempered glass panels screw with the airflow isn't too convincing, offence not intended to whoever might have suggested that. All along the edges of the case, there are generously wide gaps between the panels for air to slip though. While I don't know how much static pressure the Corsair stock fans are capable of at low speed, the airflow situation in this case should hardly be any different than any other ATX tower that has a solid front panel and intakes through a gap in the side of the front panel. The S340 was one of those cases, and itself was nothing out of the ordinary on airflow; GN's review confirms that the 570X provides respectable airflow. If airflow was obscenely horrid, 570X owners on the web would not be boasting of it and resulting temperatures being "excellent".

I will concede the point that a close-fitted dust filter presents a static pressure challenge for any case fan, but it doesn't look too restrictive in the 570X, and again, from a quick survey of various forums, there don't seem to be any alarming standout issues in airflow from 570X owners. The GN review of the 570X has the fans at 1050rpm and 1500rpm, with a difference of only about 2C.


On a side note, because I can't quite remember, have you ever recorded the all-core boost speeds _during _CB R20 as well as the SVI2 TFN Vcore? I've heard about Asus overvolting chips for quite some time now, and although Matisse sustained Vcore will vary from chip to chip, it does provide a general idea of whether Vcore is roughly in the right place for a given clock.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 27, 2020)

Gonna reply later to the new posts, working now 
But I have one more big success to report. My GPU idle temp (with fans off) has decreased from 60°C to 41°C! 
One youtube video, don't remember which one suggested to always use "Prefer maximum performance" setting instead of the default. I have adjusted this setting every single time since I've built the rig lol.

Now I did some more digging and this review made me switch back to "optimal" and my idle temps decreased by 20°C lolz
https://www.thefpsreview.com/2019/12/04/nvidia-geforce-driver-power-mode-settings-compared/


----------



## Fry178 (May 27, 2020)

you wannna set it to adaptive. 
optimal is mainly to conserve power on lappys. 
for older/low load games (nfs rivals) you can set it to max to keep the card from dropping clocks because of low load (causing stutter)


----------



## ecopsorn (May 27, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> That's interesting news!   I don't think I have ever heard a hissing noise from a case before.  I was mighty tempted to buy that case you have but was unsure of the air flow due to the glass and filter at the time.  I would be super interested to know if the other fan adjustments help with the internal case temps or not.   I have another theory that using something for air deflection at strategic places in the case might help direct the airflow better and push the warmer air out from around the GPU.  You might experiment with cardboard pieces and if something works get a custom cut piece of acrylic.


I did test the negative pressure setup now but it wasn't successful, temps were not meaningful different, but they were roughly 2°C higher on some parts (like ram). Anyway, I got a lot of dust flying around in my office because my wife got 2 sewing machines doing business in the same room , so I'd rather have a positive setup anyway hehe.



tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn I've got a Dark Rock Pro 4 on the way, and am probably going to move my 3700X setup out of the M1 and into my TJ08 instead. The DRP4 and D15 are direct, comparable competitors and should make for some close comparisons, and my 3700X can boost closer to a lower binned 3800X both on ST and MT if I do some tricks with PBO. My concern is still that every one of your sensors seem to read on the high side by roughly the same margin; if not an issue of ambient temperature or case airflow, then I'm not sure what other culprits might exist.
> 
> My TJ08 has a Noctua Industrial NF-A14 in the front and regular NF-F12 in the back, both of which pushes plenty of CFM with or without the dust filter, but I can turn both off and we'll see how much of a theoretical difference having 0 airflow will make.
> 
> ...


Yes, I want to mention again that removing the front glass panel did absolutely nothing to the temps, removing the filter however did cool down temps by ca. 2°C. I'm not looking to win an award for coolest system though, just needs to be decent by keeping dust out and noise as low as possible during idle, I don't really care about the noise during load since I wear a headset most of the times I play them games.

About the voltages, somebody else asked it once a couple of pages back in the thread and the voltages I provided seemed ok, but I just repeated another cb20 for ya with hwinfo open.
Here are the results acc. to hwinfo:
Idle CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.406V
Idle SoC Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.087 V

CB20 Load CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.262V
CB20 Load  SoC Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.087 V


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## Fry178 (May 27, 2020)

Get a simple box fan (20 in) and tape a hepa filter (20x20 filter) to it.
i would get at least MERV 8, better 10. running this will leave almost nothing in the room when it comes to dust.
also helps you not getting any respiratory issues down the road (from all the stuff flying around).


----------



## ecopsorn (May 28, 2020)

Board arrived - tomorrow is x-change time, wish me luck


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## A Computer Guy (May 28, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Board arrived - tomorrow is x-change time, wish me luck



Good luck.  If there's any plastic peel go slow and savor the moment.


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## ecopsorn (May 28, 2020)

Still got a couple of questions ahead

 MSI got a new beta bios driver, should I skip that one and go for the January one (7C34v18)?
Apparently today should be the release of Windows 10 2004 update, but when I create the windows 10 media with media creation tool, I don't see what the hell is copied on


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 28, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Still got a couple of questions ahead
> 
> MSI got a new beta bios driver, should I skip that one and go for the January one (7C34v18)?
> Apparently today should be the release of Windows 10 2004 update, but when I create the windows 10 media with media creation tool, I don't see what the hell is copied on


1. No
2. Don't worry about it, update later.


----------



## Fry178 (May 29, 2020)

If you used the updated tool/online, you got the 2004, if not, just 1909.
there is a reason why MS has a new build, i prefer to go with the latest.
e.g. 3xxx cpus wouldnt even run with prior 1903 builds, so why stay with the old.

i installed it last night, runs fine.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 29, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Still got a couple of questions ahead
> 
> MSI got a new beta bios driver, should I skip that one and go for the January one (7C34v18)?
> Apparently today should be the release of Windows 10 2004 update, but when I create the windows 10 media with media creation tool, I don't see what the hell is copied on



1.  Generally you don't want to use a beta BIOS (it may be buggy) unless you really need something from it like a fix, or if you want to be a beta tester.  For example originally I used a beta BIOS to get some ECC compatibility with the 3800x for my board until they were able to turn it around for an official release. 

Minimally with Zen2 CPU's you're going to want a BIOS with AMD AGESA ComboPI 1.0.0.4 Patch B with Windows 10 19.xx (or higher) and the updated chipset drivers (I forgot what version) so Windows can use your CPU better.   If your're using a lesser BIOS version and Windows 18.xx it wasn't well optimized for the new CPU's but I found you can turn off the CPPC preferred cores option in the BIOS to get a bit better performance in that scenario.  You shouldn't have to worry about this too much at this point in time unless your going to explicitly use older BIOS and older OS for some unknown reason.

When flashing BIOS consider any memory overclock you have might get destroyed and you may have to retest to be sure your system is stable after the new BIOS is in place.  

If your BIOS allows you to save custom profiles it may not be a good idea to load those profiles saved from a prior BIOS revision.  I can't say that would be a universal advice for all motherboard vendors but for mine that was my experience.  Simply recreate your profile and save over top the old one if it wasn't already erased by the BIOS update.

If you don't have any BIOS safety features that allow you to recover from a bad flash you might want to remove any CPU or RAM overclock before flashing your BIOS to reduce the risk of a bad flash. 

Always check the vendors website for special bios flashing instructions.  They may have notes you have to be aware of before you flash or recovery instructions if something goes wrong.

Also it might be a good idea to check around forums to see if anybody else had a problem with the BIOS you intend to flash to.  It might save you some headaches if it turns out the version your about to flash has problems reported by the community.

2.  When you go to the download page it should tell you.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 29, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> If you don't have any BIOS safety features that allow you to recover from a bad flash you might want to remove any CPU or RAM overclock before flashing your BIOS to reduce the risk of a bad flash.


Sorry, but this is pure nonsense. How can you flash without a CPU and memory if you don't have something like a BIOS Flashback feature on the board? It's impossible.



A Computer Guy said:


> If your BIOS allows you to save custom profiles it may not be a good idea to load those profiles saved from a prior BIOS revision.  I can't say that would be a universal advice for all motherboard vendors but for mine that was my experience.  Simply recreate your profile and save over top the old one if it wasn't already erased by the BIOS update.


More nonsense, it's not possible to load profiles from a previous UEFI, this is strictly enforced so you don't end up loading bad settings into the updated UEFI.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> ...
> More nonsense, it's not possible to load profiles from a previous UEFI, this is strictly enforced so you don't end up loading bad settings into the updated UEFI.
> ...



ASRock had a faulty BIOS at one point that allowed for this very scenario.  Don't know how prevalent this possibility is with other vendors.



TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but this is pure nonsense. How can you flash without a CPU and memory if you don't have something like a BIOS Flashback feature on the board? It's impossible.
> ...



I think you misread...I said remove the overclock.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 29, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> ASRock had a faulty BIOS at one point that allowed for this very scenario.  Don't know how prevalent this possibility is with other vendors.




Considering how much asrock seems to spend on their bios... I believe it. Asrock is the only mobo manufacturer that I still can't stand their bios. Although for AMD considering how little tweaking you actually need to do or even should do I guess that's a non issue.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 29, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> ASRock had a faulty BIOS at one point that allowed for this very scenario.  Don't know how prevalent this possibility is with other vendors.
> 
> I think you misread...I said remove the overclock.


Since the removal of the floppy connector, that hasn't been possible and still required the CPU and RAM to be installed.

Read what I quoted. You can not use profiles from a previous UEFI version, even if you saved them to a USB stick. This is to prevent issues from happening due to potential changes in how settings are done in the UEFI.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> ...
> Read what I quoted. You can not use profiles from a previous UEFI version, even if you saved them to a USB stick. This is to prevent issues from happening due to potential changes in how settings are done in the UEFI.



I agree with the way you say it should work.  Simply I don't know how I can explain my experience then.  I've been though all BIOS revisions for my board trying to OC various ram kits since P1.90 and at least one of them was buggy enough to allow it.  Saving and loading from USB was buggy too at the time so I just gave up on that feature early on and used the default save slots provided.  Eventually they did start clearing the profiles during the flash which was consistent behavior with what I experienced on an MSI board I had for a short while.
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X470 Master SLIac/index.asp#BIOS



TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but this is pure nonsense. How can you flash without a CPU and memory if you don't have something like a BIOS Flashback feature on the board? It's impossible.
> ...



I didn't say you could.  Let me rephrase....There are two bios safety features that I am aware of:  bios flashback and dual bios.
If you don't have either of these two means of recovery my advice was to remove the overclocks on your CPU and RAM before you flash, to reduce the risk of a bad flash.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 29, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> I didn't say you could.  Let me rephrase....There are two bios safety features that I am aware of:  bios flashback and dual bios.
> If you don't have either of these two means of recovery my advice was to remove the overclocks on your CPU and RAM before you flash, to reduce the risk of a bad flash.


Sorry, misread that part. Even so, never had a problem flashing with an overclocked CPU or RAM, but YMMV.


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 29, 2020)

I seem to be subscribed to this thread but can't see why.

Can anyone TL;DR the last 15 pages for me?


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## oxrufiioxo (May 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, misread that part. Even so, never had a problem flashing with an overclocked CPU or RAM, but YMMV.



I think some people keep borderline stable overclocks..... usually specifically for gaming and I could see them having a bad day.. Given that it's nearly pointless to overclock Ryzen I doubt that will be an issue for the OP on a new board.

I personally load optimized defaults prior to a bios flash either way.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 29, 2020)

So mobo installed and realized that I’m fucked now... can’t use PCI-E slot 1 (only 16x) because of the mobo PCI-E arrangement and my big ass Noctua. Forced to use slot 2 now   - can’t believe that I have to switch to an AIO after all now and sell Noctua again - someone shoot me in the face please


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## oxrufiioxo (May 29, 2020)

I was sorta wondering about that the top slot did look mighty close to the cpu.....


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## TheLostSwede (May 29, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> So mobo installed and realized that I’m fucked now... can’t use PCI-E slot 1 (only 16x) because of the mobo PCI-E arrangement and my big ass Noctua. Forced to use slot 2 now   - can’t believe that I have to switch to an AIO after all now and sell Noctua again - someone shoot me in the face please


You really don't have any luck at all with this build, do you?


----------



## ecopsorn (May 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> You really don't have any luck at all with this build, do you?



well there is not much I haven’t replaced so I gotta reach the goal sometimes haha

I pick up the AIO tmrw so I can still continue with bios flash install and all - tmrw putting the AIO on


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## ecopsorn (May 30, 2020)

Hey guys. Still on the Noctua, AIO is here to be put in in an hour or so. First want to do some more ram tweaks.
This is what I have so far:




This is from the last run:




funny that I can't reach the second line read and copy speads yet, though they I am at 1T, any ideas? These minor tweaks all booted well, but yet again, when I punch in DRAM calc values, pystem won't even post.

I was actually dreaming about getting near bullzoids stats with the new board, but he runs 3800 and I can't get there at all. And actually this vid of him suggests that 3800 should be aimed for but in this thread it got more suggested to stick to 3600.

I know that the 4dimms instead of 2 won't make my life easier, but yeah would be happy to get a little more read/copy spead though I have no idea how that will affect anything gaming or video editing related.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 30, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Hey guys. Still on the Noctua, AIO is here to be put in in an hour or so. First want to do some more ram tweaks.
> This is what I have so far:
> View attachment 157287
> This is from the last run:
> ...



Looking at the screenshots it shows your GDM enabled.  If I recall correctly when GDM enabled it overrides your command rate.  In the 2nd line in the buildzoid spreadsheet indicates GDM disabled.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 30, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> Looking at the screenshots it shows your GDM enabled.  If I recall correctly when GDM enabled it overrides your command rate.  In the 2nd line in the buildzoid spreadsheet indicates GDM disabled.



yeah this is correct realized it now, unfortunately though the system won’t post with 1T. I varied dram voltage up to 1.45 v and played around with procODT, no post.
On the old board I also had a 2T setting getting better read/copy

by the way, on this bios, do u know which of the SOC is the one to be changed?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 30, 2020)

I'm guessing Chipset SOC Voltage is the one? CLDO isn't the same thing, and 1.2V would be way high anyway.

As for memory bandwidth, you won't get to 55GB/s without 3733 or 3800. But 48GB/s is also way low. 3600 should be around 51-52GB/s, with tighter primary timings up to 53GB/s. Varies by board and chip, but 48 is too low. I'm pretty sure I could reach 48 with 3200/16.

Still racking my brain as to why 1T won't be stable at these speeds, can't think of any reasons why.

Can you run membench in DRAM calc to shed some light on the actual performance of the memory? Theoretical numbers in AIDA do not tell the whole story.

I always thought you had the D15S, instead of the D15 chromax running with 1 fan. The clearance is why the D15S exists; it's offset to the north side to allow space for the first slot. If you still had the D15, I was about to tell you that your chip was running way hot; with the Dark Rock Pro 4, mine stays at 72C no higher in CB R20 for 4970-5001 score, and I idle at 30-40C. Both coolers are time and time again tested to be neck and neck.


----------



## A Computer Guy (May 30, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> yeah this is correct realized it now, unfortunately though the system won’t post with 1T. I varied dram voltage up to 1.45 v and played around with procODT, no post.
> On the old board I also had a 2T setting getting better read/copy
> 
> by the way, on this bios, do u know which of the SOC is the one to be changed?



Your UEFI/BIOS looks different than mine but I think for you it's labeled "CPU/NB/Soc Voltage".  Remember your memory controller is in your CPU not your chipset.  Be mindful when setting voltages, sometimes what you enter is not exactly what you get.  For example my board I enter DRAM 1.355v and I actually get DRAM 1.360v.  See if your motherboard manual can provide clarity for that voltage option.

It's possible you might need to adjust your DRAM SOC a bit higher (don't exceed 1.2v) but from the information I am aware of 1.1v and under is ok.   For the limited extent that I dabbled in ram overclocking (now many months ago) more voltage (DRAM or SOC) isn't always better but you might need to simply "hit the right spot" on the voltages for it to work in conjunction with your other options.  I believe this is discussed in the "AMD Ryzen Memory Tweaking & Overclocking Guide" although this article is a bit older now but it's what I used primarily as a guide for both Zen+ and Zen2 ram overclocking.  

RAM overclocking was fun (and tedious) but eventually I needed to settle on something that was good enough and use my daily.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 31, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> I'm guessing Chipset SOC Voltage is the one? CLDO isn't the same thing, and 1.2V would be way high anyway.
> 
> As for memory bandwidth, you won't get to 55GB/s without 3733 or 3800. But 48GB/s is also way low. 3600 should be around 51-52GB/s, with tighter primary timings up to 53GB/s. Varies by board and chip, but 48 is too low. I'm pretty sure I could reach 48 with 3200/16.
> 
> ...


Was busy installing AIO yesterday - migt have time testing tonight again, thx

So guys - we are at 15 pages thread and I’ve just been awarded to post 100x 
That’s pretty crazy.
Tonight is another testing session. If I can’t get decent ram stats, I’m gonna stick in the corsairs again. Can still give the g.skill back for no money lost. Probably I’m gonna hire one of u guys to finish my rig haha.

Now it is almost time to ulgrade CPU as the new matisse is approaching 

By the way, here are some more idle temps with the new board and the AIO:
yeeeah I could threw up, much worse than with the old board because of some reason:
I'm running various stress tests now and check temps.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 31, 2020)

55C at idle isn't impossible, but with the DRP4 now I only ever see temps like that if I'm launching a larger application or Windows is still loading right after logging in. Idle should in theory be lower under water.

Have you ever tested everything outside of the case? The case thermals is really the only remaining possibility I can think of.

The remaining bit of performance left on the table in R20 is easily attributable to the 80C load temps if it's still that hot. Matisse will not perform to its fullest potential if temps are significantly over 70C.

Also, take temps from HWInfo. What software are these screenshots even coming from? Are they showing the current values or maximum values?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 31, 2020)

The question is, is that die or package temperature?
The two tends to be quite different.

I think I idle somewhere around 35-40C with the odd peak here and there.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 31, 2020)

I did run some intelburntest and geekbench now, but after 10min. the CPU still stays at 65. I'm already checking for hidden cameras, somebody has to be pranking me right now.
Of course the case temps would now probably not be optimised since I have 3 additional 120 fans in front of the rad...

The screenshot above was from Aida. At Intelburn test, under load it reached 80°C once, which isn't worrying me, but the Noctua was at 72°C. Of course it could be the same old story with thermal paste, but I hiiiiiighly doubt that.




Every test I'm runnin gright now (Intel burn test, geekbench, Aida photoworxx, hell even the GPU timespy test give me worse results than on the old board.
I don't think I'm gonna test much more and disasemble everything again, send it back or sell it and start from scratch with Intel


----------



## tabascosauz (May 31, 2020)

@ecopsorn gotta answer the question man. Have you ever tested the parts on an open air bench or outside of the case?

What does HWInfo show for all your temperatures at idle? Are they all still as high as the other software reports for your CPU, GPU and SSD?

Quite honestly, going Intel wouldn't be a terrible idea at this point if the money isn't an issue for you, and no one would blame you for making that decision. Sadly, AM4 is not and has never been a rock solid, plug-and-play platform like the majority of Intel platforms have been. Chances are, you may also get better thermal performance out of a Comet Lake -K SKU; Ryzen does run hotter as a result of thermal density, despite all the Comet Lake power consumption memes.

But do remember that if the case indeed turns out to be the culprit here for your temperatures, any new build would suffer the same fate.

Are you applying enough paste to cover the entirety of the IHS when the cooler spreads the paste?


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 31, 2020)

@ecopsorn which AIO cooler did you get?

You should really be under 40C at idle, even with normal background processes running if you have a half decent cooler.

Have you tightened up the screws properly on the cooler? Once you've tighten it up, do all screws one more time to catch the last bit of slack.

I really don't understand what's going on with your system, as you just keep having problem after problem after problem. This isn't normal.

This was my system temperatures back in September from a different thread here. Not the ideal screenshot, but it shows the CPU idle temp at 34C, with it being at 46C with a light load on it after having run some load tests.









tabascosauz said:


> @ecopsorn
> Sadly, AM4 is not and has never been a rock solid, plug-and-play platform like the majority of Intel platforms have been.


Speak for yourself. After AGESA 1.0.0.4 I have had zero stability issues. Plug and play, well, sure, it has had issues, but by now the platform is is in general not having any major issues except the odd memory compatibility.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 31, 2020)

HaKN ! said:


> Speak for yourself. After AGESA 1.0.0.4 I have had zero stability issues. Plug and play, well, sure, it has had issues, but by now the platform is is in general not having any major issues except the odd memory compatibility.



No, that's not my point, no need to get defensive. The memory compatibility is, and although Matisse has certainly reduced the number of issues, such compatibility issues on Intel platforms post-Sandy with the sole exception of X99 just don't happen nearly as often. And I mean, it's exactly as you said, 1.0.0.4 is damn near flawless now with pretty much all the significant bugs worked out, but I'm sure you remember what it was like from 1.0.0.1 to 1.0.0.3AB. That's the firmware that the hardware launched with, and that's the kind of problem that those Intel platforms don't share. It took three months for 1.0.0.4 to roll out to (almost) everyone.

@ecopsorn What confounds me is that my idle temperatures (as with most other users with a decent cooler and latest firmware) look like this:




So aside from a thermals issue, I don't see anything else that could affect all these components equally as it does yours. It was a suspicion on your previous board that _maybe_ the I/O controlling the sensors was defective, but as it's continued to the the new one that's clearly not the case.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 31, 2020)

give me a sec, on the phone, will write soon


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 31, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> No, that's not my point, no need to get defensive. The memory compatibility is, and although Matisse has certainly reduced the number of issues, such compatibility issues on Intel platforms post-Sandy with the sole exception of X99 just don't happen nearly as often. And I mean, it's exactly as you said, 1.0.0.4 is damn near flawless now with pretty much all the significant bugs worked out, but I'm sure you remember what it was like from 1.0.0.1 to 1.0.0.3AB. That's the firmware that the hardware launched with, and that's the kind of problem that those Intel platforms don't share. It took three months for 1.0.0.4 to roll out to (almost) everyone.


You somehow quoted someone else...

Wasn't trying to be defensive, simply suggesting I feel different at this point.

I think I was one of the loudest, most annoyed people here when it comes to the crappy boost speeds of my CPU, which it turns out is actually a really good chip, so yes, I remember really well. However, we're coming up on close to a year since launch and all the really stupid issues have been fixed, agreed?

Yes, AMD did a crap job with the launch, but as have been discussed elsewhere, they're a comparatively tiny company to Intel and don't have the money and resources Intel does. This leads to more limited resources to go around not only when it comes to making and testing their AGESA implementations, but also to work with the board makers. Intel tends to send over their local FAE guys to the board makers up a year before launch, with a reference platform and CPUs for them to test and tinker with. AMD turns up six months before launch with a box of bits and a good luck card. Ok, so that's a bit exaggerated, but it's not that far from the truth. AMD does in all fairness have an office in Taipei, but the closest board maker to that office is good old DFI.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 31, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> You somehow quoted someone else...









Yo all I did was click the +Quote button. TPU is possessed, I swear.

But yeah. I won't hold it against them for being a small company with limited resources and a shit ton of old boards to support, and the performance and affordability more than makes up for it (well, for most users, anyways). But if you happen to always be an unlucky dude (which I am, if only you knew of my row with Ford and GM last year, makes my initial struggles with Ryzen look nickel-and-dime by comparison), that could be a small reason to consider Intel instead.


----------



## TheLostSwede (May 31, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> View attachment 157417
> 
> Yo all I did was click the +Quote button. TPU is possessed, I swear.


It might've been an old quote thing held over, the +Quote thing works a bit odd sometimes.
That person is going to be really confused next time he/she logs on...



tabascosauz said:


> But yeah. I won't hold it against them for being a small company with limited resources and a shit ton of old boards to support, and the performance and affordability more than makes up for it (well, for most users, anyways). But if you happen to always be an unlucky dude (which I am, if only you knew of my row with Ford and GM last year, makes my initial struggles with Ryzen look nickel-and-dime by comparison), that could be a small reason to consider Intel instead.



Next time, get a Honda 

Well, it sucks having bad luck, regardless of what you've bought. I really feel for the OP and it seems so do you and I guess that's why we're trying our best to help him out, no?

At this point, I'm really at a loss though.


----------



## ecopsorn (May 31, 2020)

*Summary Post - I give up - all parts will be returned*
First of all, so many thanks to all of you, especially @TheLostSwede @tabascosauz @Fry178 @A Computer Guy @oxrufiioxo  and all others I forgot to mention.
You showed some nerves helping me, but I'm at a point now where all further testing, tuning and replacing parts are pointless.
For many parts, especially the newest ones, I can return without money lost. For all other components, I'm getting in contact with the vendor to see how I can return it, otherwise I'm gonna open a warranty claim for everything and sometimes u get lucky and the manufacturer sends new unopened replacements parts that are easier to sell private.

I'm not immediately switching to another System, instead I'm trying to figure out first how to get rid of all the components and in summer when I have vacation I will buy new ones.
You will certainly see me around in this forum asking to check a new components list so I won't make the same mistakes as I did before.

This is not the first rig I've built but the first one where really shit hit the fan.

I've learned a lot and what I'm certainly gonna do with the next build is firstly test it in an open test bench as @tabascosauz suggested and doing all what you've tought me in regards to win install and getting the first benches and bios settings in order to check whether all is normal.

If I wait until summer, I will have enough time to think about the components and read reviews. I will definitely go Intel next, but that doesn't mean I wanna flame AMD, I might have just had a real bad luck.
Regarding the case, I'm gonna head over to the Corsair forum and ask around if there are other people with temperature problems. Judging from the reviews, it shouldn't be though.

Thanks guys!


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## TheLostSwede (May 31, 2020)

You don't think that's a bit drastic to just throw all the time and effort you've put into this, least not money as well, in the toilet so to speak?
The system is working no? Just because the temperatures are a bit off doesn't mean the entire system is a POS.
There got to be something going on here that all of us have missed.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 1, 2020)

I personally didn't expect the Godlike to do much of anything From about $300 onward with X570 the returns for buying better boards is extremely negligible especially when it comes to ram as the umc is usually the limiting factor. Temps do vary from board to board but usually by 5c or less and that's mostly down to how auto voltages work on each board and how boost happy Ryzen is. Switching to Intel is fine though.... My 9900k technically still outperforms my 3900X at stock by around 10-15% in the majority of Multiplayer games I play. BFV/CODMW/Fortnite/Gears 5. For non multiplayer stuff where I'm not trying to hit high fps and just game with max settings they're pretty identical though unless you look at graphs the whole time you're playing games. With a 2070 super they are unlikely to be any different even at 1080p. 

Your not the first person that has seemed to have an unusual amount of issues with Ryzen... I think some of that is from people who are familiar with how an intel system works and some of that is the randomness of how Ryzen works when it comes to Temps and clocks and how Ram speed correlates to infinity fabric etc.  

Hopefully come summer time whatever route you take works out better for you.


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## ecopsorn (Jun 1, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> You don't think that's a bit drastic to just throw all the time and effort you've put into this, least not money as well, in the toilet so to speak?
> The system is working no? Just because the temperatures are a bit off doesn't mean the entire system is a POS.
> There got to be something going on here that all of us have missed.


Of course it is drastic, I knew that getting a flagship Motherboard won't suddenly give me better benchmark results, but having worse throughout every test I throw at it, that's just silly.
In the end the g.skill rams I got also didn't really help. Yes they have a much better latency and 2000mb/s more read/copy Speeds, but in the end, they were also not the slightest bit OCable in my System (with the old and the new board). *As an off Topic, why every second word gets uppercased now lolz*.

The thermal aspect in regards to the case lots of you mentioned could of Course be the reason because the Corsair QL fans are definitely just look Pretty but are otherwise Pretty trashy. But yes I want it all, a quite System, a RGB System as well as a good Performing System .

And speeking of time and effort lost, I don't see it the same way. I've learned very much from you guys and that was already worth the 15 pages of Forum thread. Lots of my recent purchases however were silly (and yes I was Aware of it haha), but I wanted to see where "no compromise" brings me.

In the end it is better for me now to get back to the drawing boards for an Intel System, just keeping the GPU is certain, fans and case I'm still unsure and all the rest gotta go (including PSU as a possible error source).




oxrufiioxo said:


> I personally didn't expect the Godlike to do much of anything From about $300 onward with X570 the returns for buying better boards is extremely negligible especially when it comes to ram as the umc is usually the limiting factor. Temps do vary from board to board but usually by 5c or less and that's mostly down to how auto voltages work on each board and how boost happy Ryzen is. Switching to Intel is fine though.... My 9900k technically still outperforms my 3900X at stock by around 10-15% in the majority of Multiplayer games I play. BFV/CODMW/Fortnite/Gears 5. For non multiplayer stuff where I'm not trying to hit high fps and just game with max settings they're pretty identical though unless you look at graphs the whole time you're playing games. With a 2070 super they are unlikely to be any different even at 1080p.
> 
> Your not the first person that has seemed to have an unusual amount of issues with Ryzen... I think some of that is from people who are familiar with how an intel system works and some of that is the randomness of how Ryzen works when it comes to Temps and clocks and how Ram speed correlates to infinity fabric etc.
> 
> Hopefully come summer time whatever route you take works out better for you.



Hehe, yeah I know, going Godlike was definitely a desperate move but I'd really thought that it actually helps in whatever means, but it didn't.
And again, I don't want to flame Ryzen but I've built About 8 rigs in my life so far (I know that's not a lot), but out of These 8, two were AMD and with both I got Problems. It can still be just bad luck, but you know once that's in my head, I just don't feel like going Ryzen again and even trying to tweak some more now.

I won't post benchmark stats anymore, but with the new board and the AIO, the only bench that was still the same is CB20, all others, including SSD, GPU, Memory, and all other CPU related benches were worse.
I take it slow now and open a new thread soon to get a nice System running for summer, probably I will see one or the other from this thread over there hehe


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## tabascosauz (Jun 1, 2020)

It is a bit drastic, but I respect your decision. It's never easy troubleshooting something so problem-ridden regardless of what that thing might be. If my last 2 trucks were any indication, sometimes it is best for your sanity and your future luck to swallow the financial loss and move on from a total lemon. To be fair though, I would consider the case highly suspect and expendable before I give up the other parts in this situation; mainstream cases aren't terribly expensive, and neither are they built to exacting standards.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to build/not build next. I'm sorry we couldn't help you find the culprit in the end. Personally, I'm excited for Rocket Lake and what that might bring to the table, so I'm minimizing the amount of money I put into AM4 so I can afford to supplant my Haswell platform with something finally worthy from Intel.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 1, 2020)

If I had as many issues as you'd did I would have switched to a 9900k for my second primary system in a heartbeat and never reccomended ryzen 3000 to anyone but fortunately I've been lucky through 7 ryzen 3000 builds to be pretty trouble free other than an Aorus Master dying.

To be fair other than my personal system I keep the majority at stock and with 3200 CL14 for the majority of them as that's a good balance of stable on any chip and good performance.


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## ecopsorn (Jun 1, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> It is a bit drastic, but I respect your decision. It's never easy troubleshooting something so problem-ridden regardless of what that thing might be. If my last 2 trucks were any indication, sometimes it is best for your sanity and your future luck to swallow the financial loss and move on from a total lemon. To be fair though, I would consider the case highly suspect and expendable before I give up the other parts in this situation; mainstream cases aren't terribly expensive, and neither are they built to exacting standards.
> Best of luck in whatever you decide to build/not build next. I'm sorry we couldn't help you find the culprit in the end. Personally, I'm excited for Rocket Lake and what that might bring to the table, so I'm minimizing the amount of money I put into AM4 so I can afford to supplant my Haswell platform with something finally worthy from Intel.



Thanks man, yeah it is manly because of my sanity lol.
I will really also consider the case/fans as a root cause for bad thermals, but funny thing is that this case is discussed a lot in the corsair forums and I haven't found a single negative post in therms of thermals.
Has it been leaked already if the Rocket Lake ones will be compatibly to the motherboards for the newly released Comet Lake-S LGA 1200?



oxrufiioxo said:


> If I had as many issues as you'd did I would have switched to a 9900k for my second primary system in a heartbeat and never reccomended ryzen 3000 to anyone but fortunately I've been lucky through 7 ryzen 3000 builds to be pretty trouble free other than an Aorus Master dying.
> 
> To be fair other than my personal system I keep the majority at stock and with 3200 CL14 for the majority of them as that's a good balance of stable on any chip and good performance.



I have never intended to do ram OC in the first place except enabling XMP. Only because of my bad ram stats (latency, copy, read, etc.) and my very bad CB20 scores and long boot times (initial issues when I started the thread), I started to tweak ram according to the suggestions here.
I don't need the a maxed OC computer, stability is more important for me and I realized now that noise is another big factor for me. Having the Corsair 150i pro rad installed made it clear for me that AIO is not for me. I can't stand the sound of the pump, even when set to Quite in the software.

Saying that, I have to be super careful for my Intel builds motherboard choice. I would really like my Noctua to do the cooling, so I don't have to sell that one. I might be even able to put the second fan on than hehe, just seems hard to find rams with a low profile nowadays and of course I would have to pass on the RGB than.
@oxrufiioxo : what case do you use in your profile pic? that seems very sexy. But it looks like those are thermal take fans, right?


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 1, 2020)

They're also QL fans.... The top 4 are LL.


011 dynamic XL look it up you'll love it. Much better thermally than the 570X


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 1, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Every test I'm runnin gright now (Intel burn test, geekbench, Aida photoworxx, hell even the GPU timespy test give me worse results than on the old board.
> I don't think I'm gonna test much more and disasemble everything again, send it back or sell it and start from scratch with Intel


Oh my god, does this entire thread exist just because you can't get intel-beating benchmark scores in Intel benchmarks?

Intel burn test - Intel's own benchmark/test?
Geekbench - more of a memory latency test than anything else - massively favours monolithic dies and Intel architecture.
Aida photoworxx - where a Skylake quad core from 2015 matches a Ryzen 3700X? Again, this almost exclusively a test of DDR4 with mild variations depending on CPU used.
GPU timespy - gaming, where the GPU matters most, but Intel architecture is consistently faster, even at matched clocks to AMD.

Have you checked that your scores match other 3800X scores yet? Maybe you have already and there's a valid issue but I'm not reading through 16 pages of this to find out!


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## ecopsorn (Jun 1, 2020)

@Chrispy_  - hehe nah din’t bother reading it all. But it hasn’t been an e-pen contest. I had too many problems with the whole system including instability, windows acting funny, restarts not actually restarting etc. I only started benching to see if I’m close to what I should get, all conpared to other similar 3700x or 3800x setups.
Any way, already taking the rig apart


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 1, 2020)

ecopsorn said:


> Has it been leaked already if the Rocket Lake ones will be compatibly to the motherboards for the newly released Comet Lake-S LGA 1200?


It was confirmed by the board makers. Also, why else would they bother adding PCIe 4.0 switches, if the next CPU wouldn't support PCIe 4.0?


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## ThrashZone (Jun 1, 2020)

Hi,
One thing I can say about the z490 formula is the dual m.2 slot is so narrow I can't use my blow style heatsink on a sammy evo or evo plus 970
They run pretty warm 61c-69c on temp 2 just using CDM test
That pretty bad the fan heatsink was both temps at 45c max.

Couple of gigabyte  monster pci-e 4 m.2's have copper heatdsinks already these will not fit on my board.
m.2 card it is I guess.


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## A Computer Guy (Jun 1, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> @ecopsorn which AIO cooler did you get?
> ....
> You should really be under 40C at idle, even with normal background processes running if you have a half decent cooler.
> Have you tightened up the screws properly on the cooler? Once you've tighten it up, do all screws one more time to catch the last bit of slack.
> ....



I agree.  When I was using H100i 38c was pretty typical for me.
Good mounting pressure is a good point as well.



ecopsorn said:


> *Summary Post - I give up - all parts will be returned*...



 

Looks like I missed the party ... I was going to reply sooner but missed the chance. Perhaps thermal paste application issue because 3800x uses a chiplet design so the die is not center.  From my first experience applying using h100i using the dot method I made the mistake of not applying even pressure and squished the paste away from where the chiplet was into the empty chiplet area.  This resulted in higher temps for me due to lack of coverage.  Once I corrected this I was getting much better temps.

When you disassemble your system look at the paste pattern on the CPU if possible and see if you got complete coverage.

Anyway good luck to you.  It seemed you were so close to having a great running system.



oxrufiioxo said:


> ... 011 dynamic XL look it up you'll love it. ....



I have the little brother 011d and it's pretty good although I kinda wished I went for the XL instead but it wouldn't fix on my computer rack.  If your considering the 011d and plan on stuffing a lot into the case I say go XL instead.

The only issues with the 011d I had were the expansion card mounting holes were a tad bit off keeping my GPU from seating properly.  Luckily after I installed the EK block on the GPU it fit much better so it was a non-issue after a little bendy-bendy of the frame in the right spot.  

The thumb screws seemed pretty cheap like one day I'm gonna have to drill them out after they snapoff.

Also the EK rads don't quite fit  properly in the side compartment which I didn't know until later after coming across some forum posts across the internet , but since I only have 1 rad it didn't matter anyway.

My motherboard didn't have the right connector for the front panel USBC so I have to find something that might work. 

In the side compartment behind the motherboard I ended up using a corsair ssd mounting bracket to mount a 2.5'' ssd without squishing the power cable and zip tied the corsair commander to it.  If your're into corsair RGB this is an excellent place to stash it with convenient access to all the ports.  This trick might apply to the XL as well.  I had some unused LL120's laying around so I decided to use them and they seem to be good enough for now.

( pardon the lack of cable management...it's still on the to do list )
( oh yes that an 80mm fan on the GPU, I forgot to remove it after some testing )


http://imgur.com/a/2Wi7mf9


And yes there is a towel in the lower rack cause it's my first custom loop and I am still a bit paranoid.


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## ecopsorn (Jun 1, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> I agree.  When I was using H100i 38c was pretty typical for me.
> Good mounting pressure is a good point as well.
> 
> 
> ...



Hehe no hard feelings, told the others, all your help is not in vain.
When I removed the block, the thermal paste looked spot on, but of course I could have tried again. But to be honest, I couldn’t bare the pump noise, also on the quite setting. I rather have fan noise than the high pitched pump noise. I don’t know if there are quiter ones out there or if there’s a way to make the corsair quiter but I believe I stick to the Noctua for the next build.

The 011d or XL one will likely be the case I choose. @oxrufiioxo showed me his rig already. I do like the the razer version but it only comes in the smaller form factor. Since I’d like to put a rocket raccoon boblehead in there somewhere I do believe I need the XL hehe. Also my MSI trio x is pretty long. Haven’t checked details of the case yet though


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

Here's some builds I worked on with the Regular 011D It's also very solid but I didn't care for the build quality compared to the XL

Also the razer version is cool but not as impressive in person.






Here's the 2 XL version I worked on First two images are my PC.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 2, 2020)

@oxrufiioxo If anything, the O11 would help with the airflow   I know someone who populates his O11 with *15* x A12x25 fans including the ones on his air cooler.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

I agree it does really well regardless of how its used... I've stuck with AIO cooling for the better part of the last decade but the case does really well with tower heatsinks also you just have to make sure the height of the cooler is compatible. 


The temps are better than my 500D se but I didn't have temp issues even with a 2080 ti and 9900k in that case.  Airflow wise the 500D is slightly worse than a 570X. The 011 is definitely better than both by a mile though.


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## ecopsorn (Jun 3, 2020)

I'm continuing my journey over here, haha


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## 95Viper (Jun 4, 2020)

Thread closed as OP going another way:  --> Failed 3800X Build goes Intel 10th gen


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