AquinusYou mean how the first one seemed to work fine for my 6870s? I think you're getting a little too into the discussion, Dave. ;)

Everyone is getting angry about something that AMD is releasing for free. You're not being forced to use it, you're not being hindered by it, so what's with all the hostility? It sounds like some people ran out of their anxiolytic or anti-depressant meds or something. Please, people, lets calm down a little bit. AMD has done much worse things than attempt to release Mantle.

At least give AMD the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to improve the experience with their cards hardware.

Hostility?

lulz.

I think you're blowing it out of proportion here. I game with an MSI GAMING GTX780, and have a single ASUS 7970 MATRIX that my memory review rig uses. Both are based on Intel.

So, does Mantle help me?

Personally, I've got not emotion involved in any of this, but I am curious as to what MANTLE actually represents, and how this "free" thing is an actual thing or just a marketing ruse by AMD to get AMD GPU buyer to stop using Intel chips so much ,and buy AMD CPUs, since that's the most common thing.

I mean, I have no problem playing BF4 on a single 7970 now...so this "free" stuff...uh...whut? It gives me more...what? I just simply don't have enough information to understand what AMD is doing, where they are headed, and why. This isn't me as an AMD user complaining...man, Intel sent me three 4960X CPUs. ASUS sent me a RAMPAGE IV BLACK EDITION. G.Skill sent me a 32 GB ram kit. MSI gave me a GTX780. Thermaltake is sending me a PSU. I'm working on getting other hardware. I ain't got nothing to complain about...except my confusion. I sold nearly all of my AMD cards, got most of my money back, too.

I want to know.. because I do reviews. CPU reviews, at times, too. So, I need to know this stuff, but AMD doesn't have a lot of info for me, if any, that provides something I can relate to the end user as a tangible benefit...as a feature that they should look for as reason to buy AMD products. I don't pay for hardware any more...so the standard "blah blah blah complaining fanboy blah blah blah blah" comments don't apply to me, personally. I just state the facts, as I understand them, because that's my job. :p

Prima.VeraHow about users with 5000 or 6000 series?! Hmm? Both of those generations support Direct3D 11, but obviously Mantle is to good for them...

Don't forget the 4000 series too. They should support also Mantle, not to mention DirectX 11. Right?
Both 5000 and 6000 series are old cards. You can't expect everything new to be supported in old cards. And Mantle is NOT DirectX 11. The fact that they support DirectX 11 doesn't mean they are going to support Mantle.

john_Don't forget the 4000 series too. They should support also Mantle, not to mention DirectX 11. Right?

No.

Mantle is an API...a set of commands given to the GPU by the system, in order for the GPU to output a signal. It replaces DirectX, and uses different compression/algorithms etc, so this requires supporting "decoding" hardware on the GPU itself, which is present in GCN designs.

It provides a benefit, by both lowering CPU load, and limiting CPU-GPU communication bandwidth and time, allowing more commands to be sent to the GPU at once, eliminating bottlenecks in performance that are currently in place(on AMD CPUs).

AquinusYou mean how the first one seemed to work fine for my 6870s? I think you're getting a little too into the discussion, Dave. ;)

Everyone is getting angry about something that AMD is releasing for free. You're not being forced to use it, you're not being hindered by it, so what's with all the hostility? It sounds like some people ran out of their anxiolytic or anti-depressant meds or something. Please, people, lets calm down a little bit. AMD has done much worse things than attempt to release Mantle.

I agree, releasing Mantle is not a bad thing, but to call it "free" to everyone is a bit questionable. The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future. There are a number of people (especially the ones I have read from enthusiasts in these forums who play BF4) who bought AMD cards partially or completely because they expected the large performance improvements that AMD promises with Mantle. In that case, the new drivers are not "free" because they were an expectation with the purchase . AMD releasing the drivers is more like repaying a debt to those people.

Prima.VeraOh I read the news, but it seems you do not understand it... ;)
GCN Cards are the ones from 7000 series and above. How about users with 5000 or 6000 series?! Hmm? Both of those generations support Direct3D 11, but obviously Mantle is to good for them...

Lol Prima,

You keep moving the goal posts. First, it only support a few cards. Then I proved that AMD supports all GCNs, which is 2 generations BTW. You are still unhappy. Now you want support for ALL cards? LMAO

It's not going to happen! Why?

1. Because 99% of the time those owners of cards 3+ generations old will not have a CPU bottleneck. Mantle would prove useless even if they support it.

2. AMD have publicly stated they are doing minimal to no driver improvement for the 5000 series. I am not sure on the 6000 series but it probably receives the same treatment right now. This is not a surprise as it is very old already. This is like asking NVDA to keep supporting the 9800GTX.

There's something that led me to believe that you are just finding more nonsense to bring up. Let me point this out to you. Mantle is a FREE download/upgrade for everyone except NVDA users. If you are going to complain about FREE, I can't imagine how you will react when you have to pay for a DLC.

The Von Matrices

The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future

Are you serious? The point of any marketing is to buy their products. NVDA makes you believe that PhysX makes your gaming experience epic and throw out numbers that sounds like every developer is implementing PhysX. Intel marketing makes you believe that you can game just fine on their HD graphics.

As far as marketing goes, I see more marketing for Mantle from EA than AMD. AMD never pushed Mantle promise and my recent purchase of AMD cards did not have "WILL HAVE MANTLE IN THE FUTURE WITH 500% PERFORMANCE PROMISE" anywhere on the box or documentation.

I have no idea what you and Prima are talking about. These are the worst bashing of a free product I've ever seen. It doesn't affect your life if you don't have AMD cards. It only offer free performance if you own AMD cards. Something you never paid for in the first place when you went out and bought your cards. You guys need to breathe some fresh air.

battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/2955063418790832031/1/

Link to Johan's blog about the mantle update with performance figures

The Von MatricesI agree, releasing Mantle is not a bad thing, but to call it "free" to everyone is a bit questionable. The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future. There are a number of people (especially the ones I have read from enthusiasts in these forums who play BF4) who bought AMD cards partially or completely because they expected the large performance improvements that AMD promises with Mantle. In that case, the new drivers are not "free" because they were an expectation with the purchase . AMD releasing the drivers is more like repaying a debt to those people.

Couldn't have said it better myself

cadavecaHostility?

lulz.

I think you're blowing it out of proportion here. I game with an MSI GAMING GTX780, and have a single ASUS 7970 MATRIX that my memory review rig uses. Both are based on Intel.

So, does Mantle help me?

Personally, I've got not emotion involved in any of this, but I am curious as to what MANTLE actually represents, and how this "free" thing is an actual thing or just a marketing ruse by AMD to get AMD GPU buyer to stop using Intel chips so much ,and buy AMD CPUs, since that's the most common thing.

I mean, I have no problem playing BF4 on a single 7970 now...so this "free" stuff...uh...whut? It gives me more...what? I just simply don't have enough information to understand what AMD is doing, where they are headed, and why. This isn't me as an AMD user complaining...man, Intel sent me three 4960X CPUs. ASUS sent me a RAMPAGE IV BLACK EDITION. G.Skill sent me a 32 GB ram kit. MSI gave me a GTX780. Thermaltake is sending me a PSU. I'm working on getting other hardware. I ain't got nothing to complain about...except my confusion. I sold nearly all of my AMD cards, got most of my money back, too.

I want to know.. because I do reviews. CPU reviews, at times, too. So, I need to know this stuff, but AMD doesn't have a lot of info for me, if any, that provides something I can relate to the end user as a tangible benefit...as a feature that they should look for as reason to buy AMD products. I don't pay for hardware any more...so the standard "blah blah blah complaining fanboy blah blah blah blah" comments don't apply to me, personally. I just state the facts, as I understand them, because that's my job. :p

Dave,

So what you are saying is that Mantle's improvement for you is minimal, probably 2-4% at best because your hardware is already near the max. That's great!

I have an idea for you. Pretend Mantle never existed. Life goes on as usual and you haven't lost anything lol. Seriously, your excuses are getting ridiculous.

AMD is not trying to get people to stop buying Intel chips or NVDA. Did you not read that it works on both Intel and AMD? You get the most benefit if there is a large performance delta between CPU and GPU based on game needs.

I don't understand why you are so mad? Is it because AMD didn't send you more free stuff or prelaunch info?

BTW it's great you get free hardware but nobody cares. Everyone gets perks depending on their jobs. I don't rant about my free car, phone, macbook and expense perks for my job.

john_Don't forget the 4000 series too. They should support also Mantle, not to mention DirectX 11. Right?

Wrong. 4000 series does not support Direct3D 11. I was talking about 5,6,and 7 series because architecture is similar, they only got incremental performance that's it, nothing revolutionary.

tokyoduongYou keep moving the goal posts. First, it only support a few cards. Then I proved that AMD supports all GCNs, which is 2 generations BTW. You are still unhappy. Now you want support for ALL cards? LMAO

No, I'm right on topic. You are not, you are just insulting me. And you are trolling also. I didn't say I want support for ALL the cards, but only for those with similar hardware like 5xxx series and above.

tokyoduongThis is like asking NVDA to keep supporting the 9800GTX.

No, is like nVidia supporting 400 and 500 series on which the 5xxx and 6xxx series from AMD directly compete. And as far as I am aware they are keep providing updates and SLI profiles for those generations, while AMD.... oh well.

tokyoduongI have no idea what you and Prima are talking about.

Exactly, that's the problem. You have no ideea what are we talking about. :))
I'll give you a tip.
Is about AMD's promises and lies on how they were going to fix Frame Pacing, EyeFinity issues, Crossfire profiles and now the Mantle thingy. Thing is why I kinda stop believing their bs propaganda. That's all.

tokyoduongDave,
I don't understand why you are so mad? Is it because AMD didn't send you more free stuff or prelaunch info?

:laugh:

I'm not mad...

Like, I see you trying to say that I'm mad, and how I feel is unjustified, but you're mis-interpreting how I feel.

Why would AMD send me hardware? Did they launch anything I'd be interested in reviewing?


Nope.


Do I do VGA reviews?


Nope?


Does AMD send me CPUs on launch?

Yep.


Do I get pre-release info?

Yep.


lulz.

I already have the hardware required to investigate Mantle. Well, I don't have a 7850K, but I have all the other AMD APUs, and I've told AMD I'm really only interested in Kabini, so that's no big deal. I'm just wondering which approach I should take in my testing, and how end users can do the same, and what realistic expectations I should have.

It's cool...free stuff...but what am I looking at?

I have high-end hardware for myself, but I review any products that show up on my doorstep, and have some A88X motherboards that fit with these new APUs here to review. Should Mantle be something buyers of such a board should take notice in? Why? Specifics....?

cadavecaHostility?

lulz.

I think you're blowing it out of proportion here. I game with an MSI GAMING GTX780, and have a single ASUS 7970 MATRIX that my memory review rig uses. Both are based on Intel.

So, does Mantle help me?

Personally, I've got not emotion involved in any of this, but I am curious as to what MANTLE actually represents, and how this "free" thing is an actual thing or just a marketing ruse by AMD to get AMD GPU buyer to stop using Intel chips so much ,and buy AMD CPUs, since that's the most common thing.

I mean, I have no problem playing BF4 on a single 7970 now...so this "free" stuff...uh...whut? It gives me more...what? I just simply don't have enough information to understand what AMD is doing, where they are headed, and why. This isn't me as an AMD user complaining...man, Intel sent me three 4960X CPUs. ASUS sent me a RAMPAGE IV BLACK EDITION. G.Skill sent me a 32 GB ram kit. MSI gave me a GTX780. Thermaltake is sending me a PSU. I'm working on getting other hardware. I ain't got nothing to complain about...except my confusion. I sold nearly all of my AMD cards, got most of my money back, too.

I want to know.. because I do reviews. CPU reviews, at times, too. So, I need to know this stuff, but AMD doesn't have a lot of info for me, if any, that provides something I can relate to the end user as a tangible benefit...as a feature that they should look for as reason to buy AMD products. I don't pay for hardware any more...so the standard "blah blah blah complaining fanboy blah blah blah blah" comments don't apply to me, personally. I just state the facts, as I understand them, because that's my job. :p

I don't get it. You want specifics? It's in the OP, go here and you have benchmarks and everything. Will it relate to you with your Intel CPU and Nvidia card, in that rig? Not at the moment at least, iirc there has been talks about Mantle being made open. Will it benefit your Intel CPU and AMD GPU? Why I do believe it will, it might not be massive, but it'll do something (look at test case three for instance). You will download the drivers and check it out though, it's what you do. What do AMD want? You really don't know what they want? They want you to buy their hardware. That's what they do. Even if you're a reviewer (and are above us mere mortals :p) they still want you to buy their stuff, or at the very least give it a high score. Where are they headed? Increased market share is obviously the goal. How will they do that? The consoles, the APU's, GPU's and Mantle (I'm not touching the ARM Opterons and stuff because it's not exactly relevant in this discussion, and that is above me, and this probably is above me as well but blow that for a lark or some other cutesy expression), and from where I'm sitting it's looking pretty decent so far. They've got the consoles, the APU's are getting more capable, and they are getting even more capable with Mantle. Better performance for fewer moneys, or more performance for the same moneys.

I really don't understand what the problem is. Except Nvidia obviously, that is where the real questions are, and you are right we don't have enough data there, but ... the future is young, more data will happen.

Mantle does these things over DX11:

1. allows developers to push 10 times more draw calls to the GPU with the same CPU
2. allows developers to blue screen the game, not only crash to desktop

The first one gets me much more dynamic objects on screen without fps drop, the second one worries me.

Prima.VeraNo, is like nVidia supporting 400 and 500 series on which the 5xxx and 6xxx series from AMD directly compete. And as far as I am aware they are keep providing updates and SLI profiles for those generations, while AMD.... oh well.

btw you know why, those AMD gpus are based on VLIW Architecture, something completely different to GCN. Nvidia 400 series and up are all based on very similar arch kinda like GCN is now, that's why they dont have any problems with it..


@cadaveca

um, its a free boost non the less, what's not to like

Btw dont you want better looking games (CGI gfx) in the future that can utilize extra power and not be bottlencked by dx api..?

The Von MatricesI agree, releasing Mantle is not a bad thing, but to call it "free" to everyone is a bit questionable. The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future. There are a number of people (especially the ones I have read from enthusiasts in these forums who play BF4) who bought AMD cards partially or completely because they expected the large performance improvements that AMD promises with Mantle. In that case, the new drivers are not "free" because they were an expectation with the purchase . AMD releasing the drivers is more like repaying a debt to those people.

what about physx, gay-sync, shadow play ? even gay-sync will cost you more to gain on what we called with "maximum performance" (it's kinda meh.. ).


it's kinda funny and ironic...

SIGSEGVwhat about physx, gay-sync, shadow play ? even gay-sync will cost you more to gain on what we called with "maximum performance" (it's kinda meh.. ).


it's kinda funny and ironic...

There's a fine line that needs to be straddled between generating hype and setting unrealistic expectations. I neither said nor meant to imply that this is exclusive to AMD. All companies have had their share of disappointments in products that were highly hyped. Look at the smartphone market, where intense hype means that manufacturers are expected to come out with revolutionary products every year (and can never meet expectations).

Prima.VeraWrong. 4000 series does not support Direct3D 11. I was talking about 5,6,and 7 series because architecture is similar, they only got incremental performance that's it, nothing revolutionary.

You are wrong. The architecture is entirely different from the 7XXX series up. Go read more. VLIW5, VLIW4 VS GCN.

VLIW reached the end of its useful life and could not enable HSA without major additional hardware and a higher overhead. GCN is more suited to the current tasks and games.

The comments in this thread gave me a headache!o_O Lmao :clap: damn you ppl are unappreciative whiners :cry:, you're getting free performance but yet about 90% of still complain & argue with each other. :roll:

LionheartThe comments in this thread gave me a headache!o_O Lmao :clap: damn you ppl are unappreciative whiners :cry:, you're getting free performance but yet about 90% of still complain & argue with each other. :roll:

I'm not getting any. Do you think I did something wrong to deserve it?

Crap DaddyI'm not getting any. Do you think I did something wrong to deserve it?

Yep, you did everything wrong.

Crap DaddyI'm not getting any. Do you think I did something wrong to deserve it?

System Name: Dusty/Rusty
Processor: i5-2500K/E8400
Motherboard: ASRock P67Extreme4/ASRock 4core1600P35
Cooling: CM Hyper TX3/Intel stock
Memory: 4x2GB Kingston HyperX/2x2GB DDR2
Video Card(s): EVGA GTX570SC/Palit GTX560SE
Hard Disk(s): A few WD and lots of Samsungs
Optical Drive: LG/Asus
LCD/CRT Model: Samsung SyncMaster T220/Samsung 32" LCD TV
Case: Cooler Master CM690 II Advanced/El Cheapo
Sound Card: Asus Xonar D1/Denon PMA500AE/Senn HD518/Sony SSB1000
Power Supply: Corsair TX650/Corsair TX650M
Software: Windows 7/Windows 8.1 Pro

Maybe you should contact Nvidia and ask why their 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by their competitor? While you are at it, ask ASRock why your current boards haven't been updated to support USB 3.0...

Slomo4shOMaybe you should contact Nvidia and ask why their 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by their competitor? While you are at it, ask ASRock why your current boards haven't been updated to support USB 3.0...

Well, from I gather neither AMDs very own 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by themselves. You seem to know more about Asrock than they do. As a matter of fact they were so kind to bundle with that particular board an expansion slot with two additional USB 3.0. Two and a half years ago... That was plus what's on board.

all this rage and no one is mad that the driver is still not out :laugh:

Batou1986all this rage and no one is mad that the driver is still not out :laugh:

Seriously? All these articles and they haven't actually released the driver?

Crap DaddyWell, from I gather neither AMDs very own 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by themselves.

And this is some sort of revelation? Wasn't it made blatantly apparent that only GCN and latter GPUs would be compatible with the new API?

Really? The ASRock4Core1600P35 has USB 3.0 support? It would be news to ASRock...

Slomo4shOReally? The ASRock4Core1600P35 has USB 3.0 support? It would be news to ASRock...

I think he is talking about his P67 board... The 775 board is a little older than 3 years old.