Monday, August 31st 2015
Lack of Async Compute on Maxwell Makes AMD GCN Better Prepared for DirectX 12
It turns out that NVIDIA's "Maxwell" architecture has an Achilles' heel after all, which tilts the scales in favor of competing AMD Graphics CoreNext architecture, in being better prepared for DirectX 12. "Maxwell" lacks support for async compute, one of the three highlight features of Direct3D 12, even as the GeForce driver "exposes" the feature's presence to apps. This came to light when game developer Oxide Games alleged that it was pressured by NVIDIA's marketing department to remove certain features in its "Ashes of the Singularity" DirectX 12 benchmark.
Async Compute is a standardized API-level feature added to Direct3D by Microsoft, which allows an app to better exploit the number-crunching resources of a GPU, by breaking down its graphics rendering tasks. Since NVIDIA driver tells apps that "Maxwell" GPUs supports it, Oxide Games simply created its benchmark with async compute support, but when it attempted to use it on Maxwell, it was an "unmitigated disaster." During to course of its developer correspondence with NVIDIA to try and fix this issue, it learned that "Maxwell" doesn't really support async compute at the bare-metal level, and that NVIDIA driver bluffs its support to apps. NVIDIA instead started pressuring Oxide to remove parts of its code that use async compute altogether, it alleges.
"Personally, I think one could just as easily make the claim that we were biased toward NVIDIA as the only "vendor" specific-code is for NVIDIA where we had to shutdown async compute. By vendor specific, I mean a case where we look at the Vendor ID and make changes to our rendering path. Curiously, their driver reported this feature was functional but attempting to use it was an unmitigated disaster in terms of performance and conformance so we shut it down on their hardware. As far as I know, Maxwell doesn't really have Async Compute so I don't know why their driver was trying to expose that. The only other thing that is different between them is that NVIDIA does fall into Tier 2 class binding hardware instead of Tier 3 like AMD which requires a little bit more CPU overhead in D3D12, but I don't think it ended up being very significant. This isn't a vendor specific path, as it's responding to capabilities the driver reports," writes Oxide, in a statement disputing NVIDIA's "misinformation" about the "Ashes of Singularity" benchmark in its press communications (presumably to VGA reviewers).
Given its growing market-share, NVIDIA could use similar tactics to keep game developers away from industry-standard API features that it doesn't support, and which rival AMD does. NVIDIA drivers tell Windows that its GPUs support DirectX 12 feature-level 12_1. We wonder how much of that support is faked at the driver-level, like async compute. The company is already drawing flack for using borderline anti-competitive practices with GameWorks, which effectively creates a walled garden of visual effects that only users of NVIDIA hardware can experience for the same $59 everyone spends on a particular game.
Sources:
DSOGaming, WCCFTech
Async Compute is a standardized API-level feature added to Direct3D by Microsoft, which allows an app to better exploit the number-crunching resources of a GPU, by breaking down its graphics rendering tasks. Since NVIDIA driver tells apps that "Maxwell" GPUs supports it, Oxide Games simply created its benchmark with async compute support, but when it attempted to use it on Maxwell, it was an "unmitigated disaster." During to course of its developer correspondence with NVIDIA to try and fix this issue, it learned that "Maxwell" doesn't really support async compute at the bare-metal level, and that NVIDIA driver bluffs its support to apps. NVIDIA instead started pressuring Oxide to remove parts of its code that use async compute altogether, it alleges.
Given its growing market-share, NVIDIA could use similar tactics to keep game developers away from industry-standard API features that it doesn't support, and which rival AMD does. NVIDIA drivers tell Windows that its GPUs support DirectX 12 feature-level 12_1. We wonder how much of that support is faked at the driver-level, like async compute. The company is already drawing flack for using borderline anti-competitive practices with GameWorks, which effectively creates a walled garden of visual effects that only users of NVIDIA hardware can experience for the same $59 everyone spends on a particular game.
196 Comments on Lack of Async Compute on Maxwell Makes AMD GCN Better Prepared for DirectX 12
*cough*fx5200*cough*
this will keep on happening and their customers wont complain because "muh better in gaymes" payed shilling after these events like always
Benchmark says a new feature isn't embraced by an Nvidia GPU. Benchmark says that AMD is ahead, on a standard that they helped write when Vulkan functionally became DX12.
Sorry, but this is kinda derp. There's no games that actually show this in action. The people who wrote the code for the benchmark are cagey as to whether real world performance will bear out the superiority as a real asset. Sorry red team, this isn't a win for you.
On the other hand, this is a loss for Nvidia. They're desperately trying to play this off as a communication issue internally, but the benchmark writers are claiming they pushed for the feature to be disabled. Honestly, they could have played this like AMD played the tesselation results snafu but they went full Mcintosh. Gotta say, objectively that's Nvidia walking into a room and slamming their heads on the table. It's a loss, but only a minor one.
Again, let's be objective. Our current node has supported three generations of hardware. AMD and Nvidia are both running on empty when it comes to real performance improvement. AMD admitted it with a functional rebrand of the 2xx series, and Nvidia did it by crippling the features in Maxwell not directly related to today's games. Neither option is good, and it's an admission that they're just treading water until 2016.
Two (and a half) situations here - simple as that:
1) What Oxide say is true and Nvidia have poor hardware level implementation and the driver level ASync is not well equipped. This gives AMD a massive boost on titles using fully fledged DX12 that utilised this part of the API (and if it's open, it should use it unless it's not required).
1 and a half) Nvidia don't require Async as the cards are well equipped to deal with all other aspects of DX12, therefore in other scenarios the lack of Async wont hamper them (but may still give AMD more leg room if ASync is the be all and end all).
2) Async isn't actually the best thing ever and isn't used or required - gives no edge to AMD in other titles. Nvidia sponsored titles will certainly do this.
Frankly if this is a real case of Bad Nvidia shenanigans, it wont hurt them until the slew of AAA DX12 titles arrive. If they have new cards out by then, I guarantee they'll have addressed this and taken no prisoners. Problem is, with Win10 still in adoption mode, DX12 wont matter for the bulk of the market for quite a while until at least a healthy percentage of titles is DX12 coded. This is still too early to be truly meaningful. But Kudos to AMD for pushing Mantle and helping get hardware to do the work.
Nvidia is so dirty like pigs in the mud.
I keep telling you that this company is not good but how many listen to me ?
The world will become a better place when we get rid of nvidia.
Monopoly of AMD (with good hearts) will be better than monopoly of nvidia (who only look how to screw technological progress).
Maybe you guys need some remindersApparently, it shows that Nvidia just tried to bluff its way through the software via driver support and got backfired. I wouldn't be surprise if Nvidia starts blaming their so-called marketing department for the fault mentioned.
All in all, this entire post clearly mentions and tells us the way Nvidia handles their marketing and business. Simply put, they lack proper business etiquette by doing under-table nonsense and being opaque to consumers.
When DX12 got Popular and have a lot of games = Nvidia (new Generation) > AMD.
Nvidia Marketing department is so stupid, they said Maxwell will be compatible with all DX12 feature levels... haha, jokes on you Nvidia fanboy.
The real monsters are those like JHH and the upper management who NEVER EVER in their lives gave the initiative for improving DX or providing more efficient layers like Mantle etc...
doh!
too late :rofl:
AMD sold Bulldozer as a Sandy Bridge killer. They cherry picked performance figures, and ran testing that specifically favored their processors. That's lying.
Nvidia sold a 4 GB video card, where the last 0.5 GB being called basically blows its kneecaps out. That's lying.
Intel regularly engages in shady business practices, and has utilized its near monopoly to stagnate progress ever since Sandy Bridge.
If Nvidia folded tomorrow AMD would gouge on GPU pricing, while justifying it as a means to make Zen a competitor to whatever Intel is offering. They could theoretically do this, assuming their management wasn't incompetent. If AMD folded tomorrow the price of all computer hardware would basically have another zero. No competition means we'd all be screwed. Both Nvidia and Intel have a documented track record of these practices. Intel won't fold. They could release a Dorito, and still have people buy it. They proved it with the thermal paste crap on Ivy Bridge and Haswell.Jesus, I'm going to make the same argument here. Prove it.
1) Are there any games using the feature? Nope.
2) Do the people writing the code for the benchmark think it'll be a game changer? Nope.
3) Who was responsible for pressuring the coders to omit code that they knew made their cards suck? That's marketing.
As per your usual display, golf clap. You've somehow managed to pin a conspiracy onto the evil overlords at Nvidia. The absolute angels that are currently stripping the wall paper out of their AMD offices are poor, misunderstood, giving souls. They couldn't possibly be riding the company into the ground with painful decision after painful decision. They aren't responsible for stripping value out of the company, to meet a company valuation report that would earn them a bonus check worth more than some of their employees make in a year. They aren't cutting good, hard working individuals to meet financial objectives.
Christ! I'm between atheism and agnosticism, but that's all I can come up with. I've seen people on bad trips that made more coherent sense than you.
I love reading your posts lilhasselhoffer but, man you gotta learn how to articulate your points into torpedo's and not a long spray of .22 caliber rat shot.
The only person who types more in a response than you is Ford.
Learn to hit hard and fast.
GTX 970, Now Async, who's next?
I would still go for NV cards with this generation (more ROPS, better tesselation, faster AA, etc), but perhaps I will change my mind with the next one.
Just my two cents:toast:
Either way, its definitely nothing we have not seen before as far as any of the sides have made up their own shares of lies over the last few years.
More than once I've been guilty of that...sigh....