matarGreat lets Hope the GTX 1070 is equal to a GTX 980 Ti

Except why would it be? Historically, this is not the case. It would exceed the 980, not the 980Ti. Nvidia make theeir new models one level higher than previous gen or basically equal, that's it.

Just look at 770 to 680; 970 to 780.

ZoneDymoLastly, that free game thing, or free anything, never ever again think anything is added in for free.
You are in that case paying for the package, 600 dollars for a card and a game.
They do this as is no suprise as an extra incentive to buy the card, a new game you might want bundled in might sell better for me people (working better psychologically) then just offering the card with a 60 dollar discount.
It also helps with marketing, suddenly your new game that you want is advertised with this card and it will "give you the best experience with this kewl new game yo".

You should never see it as getting anything free with anything, you are paying for both and should wonder if that then is worth it.

This is exactly my view of the story as well, I am rather glad to see I am not the only one that has noticed this.

Vayra86This is where it goes wrong everytime in people's heads.

Did 14nm bring us a massive performance jump on CPU? Is Skylake 20-30% faster than 22nm? Nope! We gained 10%.
Did 32nm bring us the great jump in performance? No it was architecture. Sandy Bridge made it happen, same process as Nehalem. Then we moved to Ivy on 22nm... and gained 10%.

Did we not see 30%+ performance jumps on GPU in the past years, for similar price parts? Yes we did.

Are we going to see 30% performance jump this year? Yes we are. Given the fact that Intel gets to squeeze 10% out of a node shrink, and we get 30% REGARDLESS of node shrinks on GPU, I'd say we have nothing to complain about.

Once again. Move along now :)

You're wrong. All of those transitions brought massive performance boosts. But intel chose to put them all in the iGPU and keep the CPU mostly unchanged. You can't do that on a dGPU, so I was hoping we'd get more performance.
A smaller process means smaller transistors can fit in the same area. And if more transistors won't give you more performance, why put them there? You would just shrink the die and cut production costs.

bugYou're wrong. All of those transitions brought massive performance boosts. But intel chose to put them all in the iGPU and keep the CPU mostly unchanged. You can't do that on a dGPU, so I was hoping we'd get more performance.
A smaller process means smaller transistors can fit in the same area. And if more transistors won't give you more performance, why put them there? You would just shrink the die and cut production costs.

Sadly this is probably the biggest single motivating factor, not disagreeing with your comments but just suggesting that from a business perspective this is what gives you the margins that often does not exist in a competitive marketplace.

Vayra86What have you - and a whole herd of other sheep - been smoking the past ten years?

The x70 is mid range on a budget
The x80 is overpriced mid range with mildly better performance (please remind yourself of the 670 that could be on 680 stock performance with a regular OC, or the 970 doing the same versus a stock 980)
The x80ti is big chip, high/top end.

The exception to this rule is ONLY the GTX 780. And that is only because 7xx was a Kepler rebrand and that pushed the 680 > 770 which was just a 680 with faster VRAM. The 7xx series was a strange release because it landed 'between architectures', moving us slowly from Kepler to Maxwell, with the 750ti as the only Maxwell v1 part.

So, what's new? Exactly nothing, and exactly as I and the rest of the elevated people on this forum (mind you, this is a rather small portion of our forumites, evident in this thread) have been trying to get into your thick, thick skulls.

Move along now.

You just keep your mighty, erect, throbbing, slobbering brain as far away from my skull as possible dude. You've got the bug in a bad way.

rtwjunkieExcept why would it be? Historically, this is not the case. It would exceed the 980, not the 980Ti. Nvidia make theeir new models one level higher than previous gen or basically equal, that's it.

Just look at 770 to 680; 970 to 780.

Except that the 970 is 5% faster in most of benches than a 780Ti ;)

According to rumors on the internet this will be priced somewhere towards 700$. I've seen estimated from 600$ to 800$ but seeing that it is better than 980ti I don't expect it will cost less. This never happen in the recent history, although it used to be the case some 5 years ago.

Well with this money you could do soo many much better things than blowing it on high tech technology.

I know everybody will look for the down-vote button as there are so many people on this forum which spent thousands of $ on technology, but currently that's my view. I also see that a 960/380 GPU can easily play with decent quality everything that's out there on the market in Full HD, so then, why spend so much more, just to inflate the bottom line of companies like nvidia or amd ? Ok, for the later one a bigger pump is required as somehow they have more holes and what the consumers manage to pump in is not enough :)

And don't get me started on apple or the latest android flag-sink-ships. 800$ for a phone ???? Replacement every 1 or 2 years??? What is this world we live in ???? No wonder some are sitting on 200 billion $.

Prima.VeraExcept that the 970 is 5% faster in most of benches than a 780Ti ;)

Negative. I can tell you from personal experience on identical systems, the 780 beat the 970 half the time, and the 970 took the other half.

Just think about that....and how much more potent a 780Ti was than 780.

Prima.VeraExcept that the 970 is 5% faster in most of benches than a 780Ti ;)

Nope.
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_970_Gaming/27.html

Here is my review: www.overclockers.com/gigabyte-gtx-970-extreme-video-card-review/

970 worked over a 780, but the 780ti was faster by a few % overall.

rtwjunkieNegative. I can tell you from personal experience on identical systems, the 780 beat the 970 half the time, and the 970 took the other half.

Just think about that....and how much more potent a 780Ti was than 780.

Could be, I won't deny it. I was just looking at the tests here on TPU:

To be fair also wins on some over the 970, mostly older games...

EarthDogNope.
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_970_Gaming/27.html

Here is my review: www.overclockers.com/gigabyte-gtx-970-extreme-video-card-review/

970 worked over a 780, but the 780ti was faster by a few % overall.

Yep, that was the case before nVidia start screwing with the drivers and halt optimization for the new games. Why do I have a feeling the story will repeat itself again with the new gen? :D

Prima.VeraWhy do I have a feeling the story will repeat itself again with the new gen?

You are very likely correct about that! I believe in about a year and a half (at most), my 980 will receive no more driver optimizations.

But thats pretty much how it always is with drivers. It's a diminishing return ratio....most improvements will be early in the hardware life.

In any case, this is fine with me, because I will have upgraded again long before then.

Two of these on LN2 beat four 980 Tis on LN2
10 GHz RAM will be a possibility with some of these cards
Frequencies will hit CPU-like speeds in LN2

[XC] Oj101Two of these on LN2 beat four 980 Tis on LN2
10 GHz RAM will be a possibility with some of these cards
Frequencies will hit CPU-like speeds in LN2

Oh? Links please!

EarthDogOh? Links please!

I am the link ;)

9700 ProI'd call it high-end and the big-chip model enthusiast. Just like 980 is high-end and 980Ti is enthusiast class.

If the difference is similar like 980 vs 780Ti, I'd say that there's absolutely no sense to upgrade from 980Ti.

Except I'm not referring to branding, I'm referring to the chip. It's midranged no matter where they put it in the naming/pricing stack.

ZoneDymoFirst you act like you are 12, I mean "butthurt", really? go back to 4chan if you cannot be an adult.
Secondly, its more about wanting people to wake up and realize they are being milked, I find it amazing people defend companies/Nvidia with this practice by saying "its business, the want profit", yeah they do and who is paying for that easy profit? WE ARE!
Why would we stand for that? why would we continue to buy mediocre upgrades?

If lets say Apple would bring out a new Iphone thats literally a piece of wood, yeah im sure its good profit for them to sell us a piece of wood for 600 dollars, does not mean we should buy it.
I would be very much inclined to help people "Wake up" by informing them that they are buying a piece of wood.

We are not the company, we do not thrive with their profits, infact rewarding them for mediocre upgrades hurts us more because it continually slows down progress in the world of computing.
I would like to be able to do 8k gaming at 200hz in my lifetime thank you very much, oh and beyond would be nice as well....
But nope, instead of making the leaps we want we take baby steps and people defend this practice, well not me and maybe I can make others see this as well which will hopefully cut into the profits of the company which will hopefully spur on some actual progress.

If you want to buy it, go ahead, if you want to defend it by saying "they want to make as much money as possible" go ahead.
For me its not a compelling argument as to why all this baby stepping is ok.



It seems to be more about what peoples budgets are then where Nvidia actually places their products now
And yeah you are right, suddenly this Titan is part of the bracket, yet its the same people that also claim its not part of it because its "meant for more then just gaming" bit of that cake and eating it to kinda thing.

Lastly, that free game thing, or free anything, never ever again think anything is added in for free.
You are in that case paying for the package, 600 dollars for a card and a game.
They do this as is no suprise as an extra incentive to buy the card, a new game you might want bundled in might sell better for me people (working better psychologically) then just offering the card with a 60 dollar discount.
It also helps with marketing, suddenly your new game that you want is advertised with this card and it will "give you the best experience with this kewl new game yo".

You should never see it as getting anything free with anything, you are paying for both and should wonder if that then is worth it.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'll just say that competition drives performance in this arena. Nvidia and Intel won't get off their ass to really produce something staggering until they have a reason to. It's business 101 to not put all your guns on the table if you can get away with reusing the polished 9mil. In the case of people purchasing, I can't speak for anybody else but myself but I honestly don't give a rat's ass. I sell my top end lineup then pickup the latest and greatest for a couple hundred out of pocket. I want the best performance on tap for any game that I may want to play (getting rare these days though). My purchasing or lack thereof isn't going to change Nvidia's release habits. I'd be doing the same on my platform, but we all know how CPU upgrades go lol. In the end it's not defending them at all, it's just being realistic. I can get the new cards or I don't, it doesn't matter to them.

[XC] Oj101I am the link ;)

Waiting for some proof....

PP MguireExcept I'm not referring to branding, I'm referring to the chip. It's midranged no matter where they put it in the naming/pricing stack.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'll just say that competition drives performance in this arena. Nvidia and Intel won't get off their ass to really produce something staggering until they have a reason to. It's business 101 to not put all your guns on the table if you can get away with reusing the polished 9mil. In the case of people purchasing, I can't speak for anybody else but myself but I honestly don't give a rat's ass. I sell my top end lineup then pickup the latest and greatest for a couple hundred out of pocket. I want the best performance on tap for any game that I may want to play (getting rare these days though). My purchasing or lack thereof isn't going to change Nvidia's release habits. I'd be doing the same on my platform, but we all know how CPU upgrades go lol. In the end it's not defending them at all, it's just being realistic. I can get the new cards or I don't, it doesn't matter to them.

Well thats kinda where you are wrong, vote with your wallet so to speak.
If nobody goes and buy their new cards because we stand together and demand better, then yes, better cards will be made, I mean hell they do want/need to sell stuff.
I mean you have the attitude of, "im but one person, what does it matter if I do something", and if billions of other people have the same mentality then yeah, nothing will happen.
But if those billions including you make a stand and demand better, well, better will come.

". Nvidia and Intel won't get off their ass to really produce something staggering until they have a reason to"

Like people not buying their products anymore, that seems a solid reason to get off their asses me thinks.

And the idea that nobody will join you in this is not what I would describe as realistic, but more pessimistic.
With such an attitude a lot of things we have achieved would not be achieved and a lot of things we strive for now might as well be ended.
Pff Electric cars...who wants that..
Renewable energy pfff why bother, nobody will join in anyway..
A trip to mars? eh, nobody will help out with that, just a pipe dream..
etc etc

Sure, change does not happen fast, but spreading the word you are not happy with sloppy improvements, even if you are still buying them because well it is still unfortunately the latest and greatest, might go a long way in the long run, now you are just a silent sheep buying all this crap.

lastly:
"I want the best performance on tap for any game that I may want to play"

and that best performance could be so much better, unlike now where this GTX1080 will do a current game like AC Syndicate at 2560x1440 at like 45 fps.... a current game, not running 4k, with a 500/600 dollar latest card and not even 60fps, in a current already released game.
Each their own but I find it unacceptable.

EarthDogWaiting for some proof....

Either look at my reputation for releasing info before the time or wait until release.

I don't know you from a hole in the ground friend. I'll wait if you won't pony up any proof. :)

ZoneDymoWell thats kinda where you are wrong, vote with your wallet so to speak.
If nobody goes and buy their new cards because we stand together and demand better, then yes, better cards will be made, I mean hell they do want/need to sell stuff.
I mean you have the attitude of, "im but one person, what does it matter if I do something", and if billions of other people have the same mentality then yeah, nothing will happen.
But if those billions including you make a stand and demand better, well, better will come.

". Nvidia and Intel won't get off their ass to really produce something staggering until they have a reason to"

Like people not buying their products anymore, that seems a solid reason to get off their asses me thinks.

And the idea that nobody will join you in this is not what I would describe as realistic, but more pessimistic.
With such an attitude a lot of things we have achieved would not be achieved and a lot of things we strive for now might as well be ended.
Pff Electric cars...who wants that..
Renewable energy pfff why bother, nobody will join in anyway..
A trip to mars? eh, nobody will help out with that, just a pipe dream..
etc etc

Sure, change does not happen fast, but spreading the word you are not happy with sloppy improvements, even if you are still buying them because well it is still unfortunately the latest and greatest, might go a long way in the long run, now you are just a silent sheep buying all this crap.

lastly:
"I want the best performance on tap for any game that I may want to play"

and that best performance could be so much better, unlike now where this GTX1080 will do a current game like AC Syndicate at 2560x1440 at like 45 fps.... a current game, not running 4k, with a 500/600 dollar latest card and not even 60fps, in a current already released game.
Each their own but I find it unacceptable.

You're forgetting the mass amount of clueless buyers that don't give a shit. That's not pessimistic, that's realistic and where I was coming from. I'd say not even 10% of the buyers of Nvidia chips think like we do or even care. 10% being generous to the cause. That's why I said what I said, I'll go about my daily life not caring what they do and decide whether or not I want to upgrade because in the end with the scale of people it quite literally doesn't matter. I do believe this was brought up in a couple of other threads too, and it's exactly how I see every thread like this and this very argument. "Speak with your wallet fellas!". K, we're like an ant size amount compared to the masses that purchase without a clue and nary a care to that clue. You don't want to buy it and think it's not enough? Don't. It won't matter to me, anybody else, or Nvidia. You change your mind and buy it? Same thing. It's only a waste of time debating it or caring. Life goes on. I'd be willing to bet even if the P104 chip was 50% faster than a 980ti anybody moaning about it still wouldn't pony up day 1 and would still complain about how Nvidia is screwing us.

EarthDogWhy was that up to the person posting the news?

It's called "journalism". At least, in some countries.

ZoneDymoWell thats kinda where you are wrong, vote with your wallet so to speak.
If nobody goes and buy their new cards because we stand together and demand better, then yes, better cards will be made, I mean hell they do want/need to sell stuff.
I mean you have the attitude of, "im but one person, what does it matter if I do something", and if billions of other people have the same mentality then yeah, nothing will happen.
But if those billions including you make a stand and demand better, well, better will come.

". Nvidia and Intel won't get off their ass to really produce something staggering until they have a reason to"

Like people not buying their products anymore, that seems a solid reason to get off their asses me thinks.

And the idea that nobody will join you in this is not what I would describe as realistic, but more pessimistic.
With such an attitude a lot of things we have achieved would not be achieved and a lot of things we strive for now might as well be ended.
Pff Electric cars...who wants that..
Renewable energy pfff why bother, nobody will join in anyway..
A trip to mars? eh, nobody will help out with that, just a pipe dream..
etc etc

Sure, change does not happen fast, but spreading the word you are not happy with sloppy improvements, even if you are still buying them because well it is still unfortunately the latest and greatest, might go a long way in the long run, now you are just a silent sheep buying all this crap.

lastly:
"I want the best performance on tap for any game that I may want to play"

and that best performance could be so much better, unlike now where this GTX1080 will do a current game like AC Syndicate at 2560x1440 at like 45 fps.... a current game, not running 4k, with a 500/600 dollar latest card and not even 60fps, in a current already released game.
Each their own but I find it unacceptable.

Expecting a company to try harder because people elect to band together and boycott their product does a few things:
1) Share price crash
2) Your pious campaign leads to job lay offs and cut's in R&D.
3) The product actually gets worse.
4) The competition sees the opportunity to make profit for it's shareholders and raises it's own prices due to market conditions.
5) The slide of the other company continues for years, allowing the other to profit even more

Does that sound familiar - oh yeah - it's what happened in a sense to AMD. You are outrageously so far away from business reality it's almost comical. Big business does NOT listen to it's consumers - it is dictated to by it's shareholder to whom it owes everything. Shareholders demand a return on investment and that is acquired through profiteering at our expense. That is capitalism. I don't like it but I understand it.

The only and I mean THE ABSOLUTE ONLY incentive for Nvidia to lower it's prices is when AMD has the stand out best gfx chip and prices it in such a way Nvidia will only make sales if it lowers it's profit margin.

Stop blaming Nvidia for making profit for it's shareholders - blame the absolute lack of high end competition from AMD. And yes - I am actually very surprised that Fury X didn't claw that back a lot more than it did because Fury X is a great gfx card but AMD priced it (initially) at the same price and hey, guess what - Nvida didn't need to make their product cheaper. AMD got screwed as soon as they released the HD7970 at the inflated price they did. That opened Nvidia's floodgate of overpriced 104 chips, made worse by luxury price 100 chips.

I'm not having a go at you Zone, I'm really not - but as admirable as your stance is for better consumer prices the market reality of capitalist economics doesn't give a shit. Until AMD match Nvidia stride for stride and make their product MORE desirable, Nvidia prices wont budge.

I studied a module on economics at Uni, so I know enough to see the unfortunate picture. I do think unless Nvidia pulls a rabbit out the hat that AMD might just start to get a snowball effect if they push the DX12 and GCN message enough. But they also need to push developer adoption of large queue Async because with Pascal's rumoured clock speeds, it looks like they might be trying to brute force Async until Vega.

^-- What he said. However, this is starting to feel more and more like a price fixation or worst...monopoly...

ValdasIf you compare reference 1080 to reference 980 then you should be able to see that performance leap you're looking for. How much faster 980 Ti is over 980? How much faster is OCed 980 Ti vs reference 980 Ti?

I compare the latest with the previous fastest.

rtwjunkieExcept why would it be? Historically, this is not the case. It would exceed the 980, not the 980Ti. Nvidia make theeir new models one level higher than previous gen or basically equal, that's it.

Just look at 770 to 680; 970 to 780.

So you take the only excptions to the rule, 770 was a refresh of the 680, merely oc.
And then you have the boldness to pick the 970, which is on the same node as the 780.

GTX 670 > GTX 580
GTX 470 > GTX 285
GTX 260 > 8800 ultra
8800GT 256MB > 7900GTX
7800GT > 6800 ultra
6800GT > 5950 ultra
5700 ultra > 4600 Ti

See the pattern? ALWAYS the x70 is faster than previous gen fastest.

N3M3515So you take the only excptions to the rule, 770 was a refresh of the 680, merely oc.
And then you have the boldness to pick the 970, which is on the same node as the 780.

GTX 670 > GTX 580
GTX 470 > GTX 285
GTX 260 > 8800 ultra
8800GT 256MB > 7900GTX
7800GT > 6800 ultra
6800GT > 5950 ultra
5700 ultra > 4600 Ti

See the pattern? ALWAYS the x70 is faster than previous gen fastest.

No, No and No. :slap:

Thank you. That will be all.