dalekdukesboyThink Holodeck, don't think PRICE as you put it. I think price yeah always a big factor, but price alone won't sell anything some things you can give away for free and even if it's a relatively expensive item if someone has no interest in it or turning it fast for profit you still couldn't give it away. Also I think the "clunkiness" I refer to as well as how much in its' infancy this tech is is the real crux of issue here...till you can make it so it isn't like using snorkel goggles but with much more limited vision of anything "real" and when you get it to a point where something merely NEARER to a holodeck happens is when it will take off. So I am not poo pooing the tech or innovation of it far from it, amazing shit and it is interesting to me, I'm just a realist and realize this is still a calculator filling a room stage, not walking onto a Holodeck stage. Even you admit wires are a hassle, and the headgear is a minus as well admit it or not. Will it take off/succeed? Probably in some form, I just am saying as it is it won't, period.

Well, I'd say this is needless to say, but I'm saying it lol... nothing stays in the same form forever. No one can argue that VR is perfect, and no one is. The wires, the size, the weight, sure EVERY single aspect can be improved... most importantly the experience itself, the control interface, the display technology... there is not one area where the engineers would sit back and go "my work here is done, perfection has been achieved." It's all very much in its infancy, and you can bet every single facet of its hardware and operation is being worked on by the devs and engineers who know it can be infinitely better. I just find it awfully short sighted of people to write it off as a gimmick or fad given this fact... we wouldn't have ANY of the wonderful technology that we do today if everyone thought this way.

The number one problem is price and barrier to entry, and most of the naysayers haven't even tried it, which is just ridiculous. VR needs stronger uptake if it's going to succeed, so if people are running for the hills and writing it off based on cost alone (which many are), this is a bad thing. Especially because even in light of its imperfections, it's still a pretty amazing experience, and this IS reflected in actual user feedback... but that by no means implies it's perfect. The cost issue needs to be resolved, and I'm sure when we see Gen 2 of the Oculus and Vive, they will be significantly cheaper. Looking to history, there is precedent with almost any new tech... VHS players were over $1000 when they first came out!! Hard to believe now. Bottom line, MOST people who try it respond positively... until they find out how much it costs, at which point they hit the roof. Change this reaction and it's at least a start, but we're not there yet.

MindweaverOkay fair enough.. Maybe I am "close minded".. I don't know how you came to that conclusion.. I am after all using a monitor to type this now.. I hate to brake this to you but everything in live has a side effect. When I said "live" I mean try new things. I never thought telling anyone to "live a little" be a bad thing.. Until your comment.. I'll have to rethink my position the next time I use it.. I don't want to offend anyone or hurt their feelings.

I just want people to try it. I have demoed my Vive and Gear VR to a good number of people and all of them enjoyed it and wanted one. I can't say all of them went out and bought one due to price, but when the price does come down then I do see them buying one.

LOL. I was merely making my point, I sure as hell am not offended and doubt he was either, and if so oh well. I was simply telling you my view of what you said and how I see it. I just was saying one side is saying VR sucks and other side (you etc) are saying you're a fuddy duddy go live a bit and I'm sure that dude thinks he is living, so that was really it. True on side effects, but denying VR could have side effects is what I meant, not that they are minor or not minor necessarily. Anyway no harm in you having your opinion, nor did I say don't have one, I simply challenged it with my opposing opinion and I may have succeeded in at least making you think a bit outside of the box of your normal thinking which is all I was doing. I think that's good and healthy, that's why I also challenged the "fuddy duddies" on here who says VR will fail no matter what and I said I don't necessarily agree with all they said either. I am leaning on Fuddy duddy side with VR as it is now, but as atomicus just said nothing remains same in technology in particular forever. However for now we only have "what is" and what will be can only be speculated on. So for the moment VR to me is far too near the room sized calculator to be a big hit in its' current form, the technology and advancement however is exciting and interesting I just think as is it just isn't there yet and has a long ways to go. No, it doesn't take up a room but this is 2017 not 1950 so it is only a relative comparison for the times in technology.

such a phase is all this was

Personally, my biggest issue is separating yourself from family. Why? I guess if I lived alone in my Mom's basement it would be cool. But I disagree with things that put a barrier between real people we live with.

With long work hours, that time is at a premium. At least with a like minded spouse we can frequently enjoy a game and communicate together when one plays. There's no anti-social behavior like VR seems to enforce.

Finally, and only a minor point, I don't want to put anything on my head to enjoy a game.

rtwjunkiePersonally, my biggest issue is separating yourself from family. Why? I guess if I lived alone in my Mom's basement it would be cool. But I disagree with things that put a barrier between real people we live with.

With long work hours, that time is at a premium. At least with a like minded spouse we can frequently enjoy a game and communicate together when one plays. There's no anti-social behavior like VR seems to enforce.

Finally, and only a minor point, I don't want to put anything on my head to enjoy a game.

I think of this...

rtwjunkiePersonally, my biggest issue is separating yourself from family. Why? I guess if I lived alone in my Mom's basement it would be cool. But I disagree with things that put a barrier between real people we live with.

With long work hours, that time is at a premium. At least with a like minded spouse we can frequently enjoy a game and communicate together when one plays. There's no anti-social behavior like VR seems to enforce.

Finally, and only a minor point, I don't want to put anything on my head to enjoy a game.

Last part:

Don't worry. Neural implant based VR/AR is not that far away.

Seriously though i wish i can hold VR party for all of you TPU members.

xkm1948Last part:

Don't worry. Neural implant based VR/AR is not that far away.

Seriously though i wish i can hold VR party for all of you TPU members.

That's the second time you've ignored the RL anti-social aspect of it.

dalekdukesboyLOL. I was merely making my point, I sure as hell am not offended and doubt he was either, and if so oh well. I was simply telling you my view of what you said and how I see it. I just was saying one side is saying VR sucks and other side (you etc) are saying you're a fuddy duddy go live a bit and I'm sure that dude thinks he is living, so that was really it. True on side effects, but denying VR could have side effects is what I meant, not that they are minor or not minor necessarily. Anyway no harm in you having your opinion, nor did I say don't have one, I simply challenged it with my opposing opinion and I may have succeeded in at least making you think a bit outside of the box of your normal thinking which is all I was doing. I think that's good and healthy, that's why I also challenged the "fuddy duddies" on here who says VR will fail no matter what and I said I don't necessarily agree with all they said either. I am leaning on Fuddy duddy side with VR as it is now, but as atomicus just said nothing remains same in technology in particular forever. However for now we only have "what is" and what will be can only be speculated on. So for the moment VR to me is far too near the room sized calculator to be a big hit in its' current form, the technology and advancement however is exciting and interesting I just think as is it just isn't there yet and has a long ways to go. No, it doesn't take up a room but this is 2017 not 1950 so it is only a relative comparison for the times in technology.

The funny part of what you are saying about the room size calculator to me is that the Vive is room scale and you need a "room" to enjoy it's full glory. Now, of course you could use it sitting and just standing, but room scale is the best. I'm using around 7'x7' area in my computer room.

MindweaverThe funny part of what you are saying about the room size calculator to me is that the Vive is room scale and you need a "room" to enjoy it's full glory. Now, of course you could use it sitting and just standing, but room scale is the best. I'm using around 7'x7' area in my computer room.

Good catch. I hate to say I was more right by instinct than I realized...but I think essentially you're proving that out:). However even minus taking into account using a whole room to enjoy vr scale equivalence with ancient first calculator aside it doesn't matter all that much, because as interesting a tidbit as that is stressing the idea that tech 60 years apart isn't at all physically similar in size and shape, but only similar as in the relative stage of their technological lifespan (infancy through EOL) that they are at. I admittedly struggled to say that with any eloquence which is why I repeated it several times with slightly different approaches to try and make the point without losing the readers in my relatively simple point. That said, it's humorous you point that out and thought of that and I never even thought of it in that equivalence at all...partially because I admit I've not tried VR I've seen it used and know basic idea but that is also partially why I made NO comment on how good it physically looks, for I don't know. However, that wasn't really relevant to my point, it could blow my socks off but all that I said as negatives still apply, but also not knowing first hand how it looks is why I won't write it off as crap that won't sell in any form as others' have. I think if they can make it less clunky and if ever they can ditch the goggles and have it look great but projected from a device or it literally "pops" out of a monitor in 3d like movies but with no cheesy glasses even with a high price it will be the kittens meow.

dalekdukesboyGood catch. I hate to say I was more right by instinct than I realized...but I think essentially you're proving that out:). However even minus taking into account using a whole room to enjoy vr scale equivalence with ancient first calculator aside it doesn't matter all that much, because as interesting a tidbit as that is stressing the idea that tech 60 years apart isn't at all physically similar in size and shape, but only similar as in the relative stage of their technological lifespan (infancy through EOL) that they are at. I admittedly struggled to say that with any eloquence which is why I repeated it several times with slightly different approaches to try and make the point without losing the readers in my relatively simple point. That said, it's humorous you point that out and thought of that and I never even thought of it in that equivalence at all...partially because I admit I've not tried VR I've seen it used and know basic idea but that is also partially why I made NO comment on how good it physically looks, for I don't know. However, that wasn't really relevant to my point, it could blow my socks off but all that I said as negatives still apply, but also not knowing first hand how it looks is why I won't write it off as crap that won't sell in any form as others' have. I think if they can make it less clunky and if ever they can ditch the goggles and have it look great but projected from a device or it literally "pops" out of a monitor in 3d like movies but with no cheesy glasses even with a high price it will be the kittens meow.

Last part, I believe you are mixing AR with VR. VR is supposed to be immersive while AR is exactly like what you just described. VR needs HMD to block your visual cortex from receiving signals from real world---virtual. It cuts off your vision feed from other perceptions. VR is meant to be like what it is now.

As for you, I believe you will find Microsoft Hololens to be great. Although the FOV needs a lot of improvements.


And some futuristic AR short movie



I am super interested in AR as well. However the price tag is way over what I can afford.

xkm1948Last part, I believe you are mixing AR with VR. VR is supposed to be immersive while AR is exactly like what you just described. VR needs HMD to block your visual cortex from receiving signals from real world---virtual. It cuts off your vision feed from other perceptions. VR is meant to be like what it is now.

As for you, I believe you will find Microsoft Hololens to be great. Although the FOV needs a lot of improvements.

And some futuristic AR short movie

I am super interested in AR as well. However the price tag is way over what I can afford.

I'm interested in AR as well. I was really wanting a Dev kit for Hololens until they told us it was going to cost 3k... I think AR is were VR was in the 90's. It only has a 45 degree FOV. But I think it will evolve quicker than VR. I think the next step for VR is glasses, but we have a few more versions of HMD to go. Then maybe and it's far fetched.. contacts. I see VR and AR merging into one portable unit with inside out tracking, but who knows how long it will take to get us there.. Oculus is working on a AIO HMD and HTC Vive just said they were working on one last week.

I think it's all amazing and I can't get enough of it. I believe in 25 or 35 years they will look back and say what we are saying about how computers and tv's (even calculators) evolve since their early days... Well I installed my new Retractable Cable Management System for my Vive and it works really well. It's almost like the cable is gone.. lol

Neuronal implant based visual feeding will be the ultimate goal. It may sounds insane but as if now neuroscience researchers have already mapped out mouse brain networking down to single synapse level. Human brain mapping is well under way. Feeding signals directly to the brain to allow efficient human-machine interfacing will be achievable one day. We are truly living in another golden age of scientific advancements.

Also, care to share what the cable management system is? I constantly trip over the wire/cat/baby.

xkm1948Neuronal implant based visual feeding will be the ultimate goal. It may sounds insane but as if now neuroscience researchers have already mapped out mouse brain networking down to single synapse level. Human brain mapping is well under way. Feeding signals directly to the brain to allow efficient human-machine interfacing will be achievable one day. We are truly living in another golden age of scientific advancements.

Also, care to share what the cable management system is? I constantly trip over the wire/cat/baby.

I'll share it in the club house later today.

I was describing the technology as I'd envision it when it takes off, I wasn't trying to describe what is with AR or VR. I admit I could easily confuse the two but what I was saying is with either technology what needs to happen to succeed is no goggles and whether it pops out from a monitor, a hologram, projector etc it doesn't matter which, it's the idea you need to see it with your own eyes not another set of eyes strapped to your head. I think that is my main point.

xkm1948Neuronal implant based visual feeding will be the ultimate goal. It may sounds insane but as if now neuroscience researchers have already mapped out mouse brain networking down to single synapse level. Human brain mapping is well under way. Feeding signals directly to the brain to allow efficient human-machine interfacing will be achievable one day. We are truly living in another golden age of scientific advancements.

Also, care to share what the cable management system is? I constantly trip over the wire/cat/baby.

Also that last line helps make our point as to the detriments of this system as it currently is lol.

However not nearly as scary to me as literally plugging ourselves into a machine on our deepest neural levels and having the machine provide signals of images/feelings etc, not really a big fan of that whatsoever. Holodeck idea sounds way better to me, have it displayed and my eyes see it for what it's displayed as, don't pump the info into my brain and have me see it that way.

I could give two shits less about VR quite honestly. The way I see it is if i wanted to stand up and exercise id go to the gym or something. But im too lazy for that and id like to just sit my fat ass down and play games for 18hrs.

It'll go the way of 3D here soon enough. Probably faster.

dalekdukesboyHowever not nearly as scary to me as literally plugging ourselves into a machine on our deepest neural levels and having the machine provide signals of images/feelings etc, not really a big fan of that whatsoever. Holodeck idea sounds way better to me, have it displayed and my eyes see it for what it's displayed as, don't pump the info into my brain and have me see it that way.

Ah the good old fashioned human being all flesh and bone, not to intertwined with machine parts.

It is all electric signals that you brain receives in the end, be it from your eyes or directly wired into your skull. It may sounds scary, but it doesn't have to be negative. For people with impaired visual system they would benefit huge from such implants.


I feel like a little bit more discussion down this road we will be going into the territory of fundamental philosophy regarding what counts as a human being.

xkm1948Ah the good old fashioned human being all flesh and bone, not to intertwined with machine parts.

It is all electric signals that you brain receives in the end, be it from your eyes or directly wired into your skull. It may sounds scary, but it doesn't have to be negative. For people with impaired visual system they would benefit huge from such implants.


I feel like a little bit more discussion down this road we will be going into the territory of fundamental philosophy regarding what counts as a human being.

Yes, for impaired people technology is obviously a life-saver, literally at times, and often hearing/sight etc can be restored due to technology and few would argue the value in that; however that said, yeah once you open the door to what is "human" or not and you expand our humanness to machines and things not of flesh and bone...you get a good base for a scary sci-fie movie.

rtwjunkiePersonally, my biggest issue is separating yourself from family. Why? I guess if I lived alone in my Mom's basement it would be cool. But I disagree with things that put a barrier between real people we live with.

With long work hours, that time is at a premium. At least with a like minded spouse we can frequently enjoy a game and communicate together when one plays. There's no anti-social behavior like VR seems to enforce.

Finally, and only a minor point, I don't want to put anything on my head to enjoy a game.

How is VR any less social than sitting in front of a computer? It's not like you can't hear anyone else around you.

My buddy owns the PSVR and invited a few of us guys over to try it out before poker night. Everyone was enjoying the experience together, regardless of if they were playing or simply observing on the TV. Yes, it's an anecdotal example, but in no way did I feel "cut off" from anyone else in the room. In some ways it actually enhanced the communal experience.

VR games are an INCREDIBLE experience. The immersion alone is worth checking out.

f22a4banditHow is VR any less social than sitting in front of a computer? It's not like you can't hear anyone else around you.

My buddy owns the PSVR and invited a few of us guys over to try it out before poker night. Everyone was enjoying the experience together, regardless of if they were playing or simply observing on the TV. Yes, it's an anecdotal example, but in no way did I feel "cut off" from anyone else in the room. In some ways it actually enhanced the communal experience.

VR games are an INCREDIBLE experience. The immersion alone is worth checking out.

Let's put it this way then: if VR is here to stay, it will still be here in a year or two. No need to rush.

f22a4banditHow is VR any less social than sitting in front of a computer? It's not like you can't hear anyone else around you.

The difference is you can look at, talk with share what your doing with your loved ones. Do we really want our kids growing up feeling like dad or mom is trying to escape? Does your spouse really want to think you think so highly of her you need to close yourself off and escape? It will be bad for interpersonal communications and relations, mark my words.

Personally, my better half is smokin hott, and has the most captivating eyes ever, I want to see that whenever I feel like it, make eye contact while gaming, and tell her I love her. She'll appreciate that a lot more than me escaping to a virtual world.

rtwjunkieThe difference is you can look at, talk with share what your doing with your loved ones. Do we really want our kids growing up feeling like dad or mom is trying to escape? Does your spouse really want to think you think so highly of her you need to close yourself off and escape? It will be bad for interpersonal communications and relations, mark my words.

Personally, my better half is smokin hott, and has the most captivating eyes ever, I want to see that whenever I feel like it, make eye contact while gaming, and tell her I love her. She'll appreciate that a lot more than me escaping to a virtual world.

Or both of you can get in VR while physically interacting. It brings role play cough, adult entertainment, cough to a whole new level.

xkm1948Or both of you can get in VR while physically interacting. It brings role play cough, adult entertainment, cough to a whole new level.

:laugh: Ok, you got me to laugh!

I tried gender swap in VR. When I look down on my body, i feel hmm, distracted. lol