lexluthermiesterWhere was that? I did not see any documentation showing direct notification, refusal or any contact whatsoever between counsel for Atari and/or that of the court and Reiche/Ford.

Still haven't read it have you? The sale was published in the Wall Street Journal for two days. The people handling the sale also swear under oath that due diligence was exercised in notifying interested parties. If Wardell heard about, how on Earth do you think Reiche or Ford didn't know when their signatures are all over the documents especially relating to Star Control III.

lexluthermiesterCorrect. That does not mean that upon a discovery of a mistake that said courts judgment can not be over-ruled.

The sale happened in July 2013 in New York. Reiche/Ford filed suit December 2017 in California. If California's statute of limitations on written contracts applies here, it's four years and what Stardock has can't be changed. If it is New York's statute of limitations, it's six years so the litigation can proceed. In both cases, the original contract is too old to litigate.

lexluthermiesterThe evidence(lack thereof) does not support that statement.

Read the whole document purchase agreement and bankruptcy proceeding documents starting around page 67:
www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
That "statement" is heavily supported.

lexluthermiesterStatues of limitation are not as concrete as that. If a mistake was made in procedures and the rights of Reiche/Ford were violated in the process, any statues of limitations can easy be, and often are, set aside.

False, statute of limitations literally mean something can't be litigated because it is too old. The reason why statute of limitations exist is because the further back something happened, the fewer records there are of it and witness testimony is mostly useless. If the wounded party didn't feel it was necessary to litigate years earlier, then it is not worth the court's time to litigate at all.

lexluthermiesterGiven Wardell's public statements and the release of the game which seems to contain elements of IP owned by Reiche/Ford, Stardock is in hot water.

Wardell has been extremely consistent in saying that Star Control: Origins uses nothing from Star Control I nor II. It is a new IP using the Star Control trademark he owns. The DMCA takedown will likely be rescinded pretty quickly when Reiche and Ford have no proof Stardock violated the copyrights they hold.

londisteStardock adding original alien races - starting with putting some into day 0 DLC, if I remember correctly - was a dick move.

AFAIK, it was never released.

Atari was selling SC1/2 on GOG in 2011 (likely earlier than that):

12 On or about April 1, 2011, Reiche and Ford learned that a company called Good
13 Old Games was selling Star Control and Star Control II on its website, GOG.com (hereinafter
14 “GOG”), without Reiche and Ford’s permission and in violation of their copyrights. On April 19,
15 2011, Reiche and Ford contacted GOG and informed it that GOG could not sell the games without
16 Reiche and Ford’s consent. GOG responded that it was doing so pursuant to an agreement with
17 Atari. On information and belief, such agreement between GOG and Atari was called the “Digital
18 Distribution Agreement” and was dated March 10, 2010.

Atari confirmed what Reiche and Ford claimed:

25 On April 25, 2011, Atari responded that its counsel had checked and Reiche and
26 Ford were correct. Atari notified GOG to remove and take down the Star Control Games and to
27 remit all revenues from sales of the games to Reiche and Ford.

Atari, GOG, Reiche, and Ford reached an agreement:

11 On January 2, 2012 (with an effective date of April 1, 2011), GOG and Reiche and
12 Ford entered into the Digital Distribution Agreement to provide GOG with a non-exclusive license
13 to distribute the Classic Star Control Games in exchange for royalties of 25% of net revenue, a
14 copy of which is attached hereto as Exhibit 7. The agreement specifically noted that GOG would
15 obtain “the rights for the Products names and related trademarks … from the respectful [sic] rights
16 holder.”

Stardock assumed Atari's place in that agreement when the sale occurred in 2013.

Stardock appears to have unilaterally begun selling SC1/2 on Steam in 2017. Reiche and Ford sent a takedown request to Steam, Steam denied it. In response to this, Reiche and Ford pulled out of their 2011 agreement with GOG which caused GOG to remove the games from its platform. Stardock submitted a counter claim and GOG continued to sell the games.

Blah, blah, blah.

Stardock is in a lot of trouble in regards to SC1/2. The court can reasonably be expected to enforce Reiche and Ford's copyrights which Stardock blatantly violated.
Stardock will countersue in regards to trademark use violations and damages incurred as a result of DMCA takedown on Star Control: Origins.
I suspect there will be a settlement where Stardock gives the Star Control trademark and StarControl III to Reiche and Ford in exchange for a license agreement to continue to sell and promote Star Control: Origins (the only thing of real value here to Stardock).

FordGT90ConceptBlah, blah, blah.

Yup, exactly..

Here's where we're at...

Stardockwww.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html
1) injunction against trademark infringements
2) relief due to #1
3) relief due to #1
4) relief due to #1
5) injection and relief relating to the registered copyrights Stardock shouldn't have. This one literally holds no water.
6) more relief
7) Reiche and Ford pay legal costs
8) more relief

Reiche and Fordwww.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
1) Cease sales of SC1, SC2, SC3, and use of creative materials in SCO
2) Declare SC1, SC2, and their characters in SC3 as theirs
3) Injunction against Stardock's use of "The Ur-Quan Masters" (would void the registered copyright as per #5 above) and also Stardock's claims of cooperation
4) Cancel the "Star Control" trademark held by Stardock
5) Hand over everything relating to SC1 and SC2 to Reiche and Ford
6) Compensation for profits off of infringing materials
7) Damages according to Lanham Act
8) Statutary damages should #7 not apply
9) Punitive damages
10) Attorney fees
11) Cost of suit
12) Post judgement interest
13) Other remedies
14) Relief

Both parties are effectively agreeing the trademark is still in effect and Stardock holds it. Reiche and Ford argue it shouldn't be. That's what the case is really going to boil down to.

FordGT90ConceptStill haven't read it have you? The sale was published in the Wall Street Journal for two days.

That does NOT constitute DIRECT contact, in any court of law.

FordGT90ConceptThe people handling the sale also swear under oath that due diligence was exercised in notifying interested parties.

That does not mean they knew exactly what their full responsibilities were. Only that they carried out the ones the knew about in good faith. If they were not aware that they needed to contact Reiche/Ford, then they still carried out their due diligence. Reiche/Ford's right's were still violated. With this kind of mistake in procedure, statue of limitations gets set aside.

I think you misunderstand a few things, you think I misunderstand a few things. Regradless, the court of jurisdiction will decide these matters, we will not. So arguing about them like this is kinda pointless.

Reiche and Ford are not contesting the bankruptcy sale at all. They are arguing that all copyrighted materials should be returned to them (because they didn't consent to transfer) and the trademark (which should have ended in 2002 according to them) should be canceled. The former is pretty much an inevitability; the latter is going to require the judge to do a lot of work (case law, SCOTUS rulings, trademark law, statute of limitations, etc.).

FordGT90Concept

Stardock5) injection and relief relating to the registered copyrights Stardock shouldn't have. This one literally holds no water.

Actually, it does. This is about Star Control 3 that was available on GOG.

FordGT90Concept

londiste- Stardock adding original alien races - starting with putting some into day 0 DLC, if I remember correctly - was a dick move.

AFAIK, it was never released.

If that is the case, this DMCA Claim seems to be even more dick move...

FordGT90ConceptThey are arguing that all copyrighted materials should be returned to them (because they didn't consent to transfer) and the trademark (which should have ended in 2002 according to them) should be canceled.

Which goes back to the Atari bankruptcy. Those arguments will likely happen.

No matter what arguments are made, it is clear Atari made a few mistakes and then Stardock made a few more. Reiche and Ford are not the villains here at all. Their rights have been trampled under foot and they've had enough. It's in the hands of a seemingly competent court. If Stardock had any sense they would find a way to settle unless they have completely burnt that bridge, otherwise it seems they're gonna get even more roasted than they already have been.

londisteIf that is the case, this DMCA Claim seems to be even more preemptive move...

Had to fix that for you. Reiche/Ford are protecting their rights, nothing more.

londisteActually, it does. This is about Star Control 3 that was available on GOG.

My bad, I thought it was about Stardock copyrighting Ur-Quan Masters but Stardock trademarked it, not copyrighted. I can't see the court permitting those trademarks to exist when it's a copyrighted material they have no license to nor ownership of.

londisteIf that is the case, this DMCA Claim seems to be even more dick move...

I think the justification for the DMCA takedown was pre-release material that apparently had an Origins character in front of a SC1/2 background. Even if it never appears in the game, that was justification enough for the court to leave it in place. It's extremely easy to get a DMCA takedown put in place and nigh impossible to get it removed by design.

lexluthermiesterNo matter what arguments are made, it is clear Atari made a few mistakes and then Stardock made a few more.

The only mistake Atari made, from what I can tell, is selling SC1/2 digitally without consent from Reiche and Ford. Once they negotiated a royalty, sale continued.

lexluthermiesterReiche and Ford are not the villains here at all.

They deliberately undermined the launch of Origins using information given to them in confidence by Wardell. They're not saints either.

lexluthermiesterIf Stardock had any sense they would find a way to settle unless they have completely burnt that bridge, otherwise it seems they're gonna get even more roasted than they already have been.

I did some digging on trademark law and cancelling trademarks seems to be a very rare thing outside of the 30 day window for opposition. Stardock has a lot of power over Reiche and Ford by way of the trademark. If they don't come to a mutual understanding, SC1/2/3 will vanish from the market forever (unless all references to Star Control are removed) and Ghost of the Precursors can't use Star Control branding. There will only be Star Control: Origins and it won't have anything to do with its namesake.

Ideally there would be a cross-licensing settlement but Reiche and Ford have consistently dismissed the idea. They've even dismissed the suggestion of buying the trademark at cost ($305,000)…


I think what's going to happen is that:
1) Star Control trademark will be enforced meaning Reiche and Ford can't use it without paying licensing fees to Stardock.
2) Reiche and Ford nor Stardock can sell SC1 nor SC2 without some kind of licensing agreement (conflicting copyright and trademark).
3) Reiche and Ford will be ordered to pay damages in regards to Ghost of the Precursor and DMCA takedown.
4) Stardock will be ordered to pay for copyright infringement in regards to SC1/2/3 sales.
5) SC1, SC2, and characters from them in SC3 belong to Reiche and Ford.
6) Star Control trademark and SC3 in general belong to Stardock.

lexluthermiesterIt's in the hands of a seemingly competent court.

I would like to think all courts are competent :)
So far, no idea what the court will think though.
Stardock's request for injunction was expected to fail. Court will not (and can not) take away legal rights such as right to send a DMCA notice.

FordGT90ConceptThey deliberately undermined the launch of Origins using information given to them in confidence by Wardell. They're not saints either.

They're protecting their interests. There's nothing wrong or immoral with that. Stardock seems to have crossed more than a few lines.

FordGT90ConceptObviously didn't read it.


It nullifies any claim Reiche/Ford had on the Star Control trademark and Star Control III copyright. They have been Stardock's since July 2013.

The Star Control trademark is still registered to Stardock:

You're making it sound as if the judge has already ruled. You know they can't do that at this stage.
As clear cut as a case may sound, if it's not dismissed outright, it has to be heard in court. I'd say let's not jump the gun, the judicial system can be fairly unpredictive. At least for the layman.

bugthe judicial system can be fairly unpredictive. At least for the layman.

Heck, it can be unpredictable for even legal professionals, which is why they try anything they can even if they expect it to fail, just because once in a while it succeeds..

bugYou're making it sound as if the judge has already ruled. You know they can't do that at this stage.

What you quoted was ruled on back in 2013 as part of Atari's bankruptcy, beginning page 67:
www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html

bugAs clear cut as a case may sound, if it's not dismissed outright, it has to be heard in court.

Both sides are requesting trial and both sides have merit (were demonstrably damaged by the opposing party) for a trial. There's no chance it will be dismissed. Chances of a settlement are near zero (Stardock is willing, Reiche and Ford are not). Odds of trial are extremely good.

OMFG, I thought only Brad Wardell was posting stuff that damaged their own stupid claims in the lawsuit. But no, Reiche and Ford need to blurt out their unfiltered thoughts in a similar way:
www.dogarandkazon.com/blog/2019/1/2/injunction-junction-court-instruction

Despite the wall of text in both lawsuits this will end up in status quo on what the situation with trademark/copyright ownership is. In addition to their communication from before both sides have now stated publicly that they are in agreement. Reiche has SC1/2 and Stardock has Star Control name and parts of SC3 plus some minor marketing stuff. I would be very surprised if court finds otherwise.

What court will decide is which infringements have occurred and what the damaged to be paid are. And it does seem that this will go both ways :(

That image...yeah...Stardock is in trouble in regards to Origins:

It is obvious Origins is based more on Star Control II than Star Control 3. Stardock should settle and that settlement needs to include royalty payments to Reiche and Ford. They're probably going to have to license Ghost of the Precursors free of charge too.

I would not count on that. I suspect it is meant to show the combination of design decisions being similar rather than specific details. The problem is, will that be enough? The majority of these are questionable at best from infringement point of view legally. Maybe I have simply played too many space exploration games but half or more of listed items can be found in a lot of games.

The list he provided is quite damning. I never played Star Control II so I have to take his word on that but what he alleges in Star Control: Origins, I know to be true (the redness, the interaction when two ships collide, the friendly Tywom offering fuel when you run out, etc.) Some points, like autopilot, are features you'd expect in a spacefaring game so it's moot. But the points where Origins blatantly copied Star Control II...those can't be easily dismissed.

Judging by that picture, I'd say the DMCA takedown was justified. Wardell should have known better.

Thanks Ford for the image. Yeah, that image is quite damning if true.

FordGT90ConceptThe list he provided is quite damning. I never played Star Control II so I have to take his word on that but what he alleges in Star Control: Origins, I know to be true (the redness, the interaction when two ships collide, the friendly Tywom offering fuel when you run out, etc.) Some points, like autopilot, are features you'd expect in a spacefaring game so it's moot. But the points where Origins blatantly copied Star Control II...those can't be easily dismissed.

Judging by that picture, I'd say the DMCA takedown was justified. Wardell should have known better.

YOU WHAT?!?
It's truly a gem, if you can spare the time at least give the Ur-Quan Masters a chance.

I don't know, games that old...they don't age well. There's also that slight problem that this spat between Stardock and Reiche/Ford has caused them to be taken off stores.

FordGT90ConceptI don't know, games that old...they don't age well. There's also that slight problem that this spat between Stardock and Reiche/Ford has caused them to be taken off stores.

sc2.sourceforge.net/
You are right about games that old not aging well though.

FordGT90ConceptI don't know, games that old...they don't age well. There's also that slight problem that this spat between Stardock and Reiche/Ford has caused them to be taken off stores.

Nope: sourceforge.net/projects/urquanmastershd/

Also, this has aged well (much of the game is about soundtrack and humor). The only thing I had a problem was the space battles, my reflexes aren't what they used to be.
Give it a few hours. It's free and if it's not your cup of tea, you'll be able to tell rather quickly.

Oh right, forgot they open-sourced it back in 2002.

I should play it just for the sake of verifying what Reiche and Ford claimed having played Origins too.

Combat in Origins is pretty brutal too. I blame the controls and how the ship behaves. It's...unconventional...

FordGT90ConceptI should play it just for the sake of verifying what Reiche and Ford claimed having played Origins too.

That would offer some great insight.

The license from Ur-Quan Masters. Interesting that all of the copyrights are for the developer ("Toys for Bob") and not Reiche and Ford.

The Ur-Quan Masters Copyright (C) 1992, 2002 Toys for Bob, Inc.

This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be entertaining,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
GNU General Public License for more details. A copy of the
General Public License is included at the end of this document.

The content -- Ur-Quan Masters' voiceovers, dialogue, graphics,
sounds, and music -- are copyright (C) 1992, 1993, 2002
Toys for Bob, Inc. or their respective creators.
The content may be used freely under the
terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
2.5 license (included below, and also available at
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/). The content
may also be copied freely as part of a distribution of The Ur-Quan
Masters HD.

The documentation -- excluding documentation that is part of the
code or otherwise clearly governed by the preceding licenses --
may be used freely under the terms of the Creative Commons
Attribution 2.0 license (included below, and also available at
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/).

Toys for Bob was purchased in 2005 by Activision. Strange that they used their company name instead of their name as they did with the original games.


Edit: Okay, Star Control: Origins is basically a plagiarized version of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters. Take SC2 and update it with a modern 3D engine, swap species for another (e.g. Ur-Quan with Scryve), and you got SCO.

I got raped in the first space battle and there is no autosaving. Woe is me. I kind of want to keep playing it but...eh...