Monday, April 15th 2019

MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI want you to buy a new motherboard every two generations of processor for no sound reason at all. MSI is reportedly blocking support for 3rd generation Ryzen "Matisse" processors on its AMD 300-series chipset motherboards, including those based on high-end AMD X370 and OC-capable B350 chipsets. This would also put those who own $300 motherboards such as the X370 XPower out of luck. To recap, AMD announced on numerous occasions that it doesn't want to be a greedy clique like its competitor, by forcing motherboard upgrades and promised that socket AM4 motherboards will be backwards and forwards compatible with at least four generations of Ryzen processors, running all the way up to 2020.

This normally should mean that any 300-series motherboard must support 4th generation Ryzen processors with a simple BIOS update. Most 300-series motherboards, including from MSI, even ship with USB BIOS Flashback feature to help with forwards compatibility. Unfortunately, motherboard companies such as MSI care more about their bottom-lines than the consumer. In a support e-mail to an X370 XPower Titanium owner, MSI confirmed that it will not extend Zen 2 support to AMD 300-series. Other motherboard vendors could follow MSI's suit as a representative of another motherboard vendor, on condition of anonymity, told TechPowerUp that "Zen 2" processors have steeper electrical requirements that 300-series motherboards don't meet. This is an excuse similar to the one Intel gave for the planned obsolescence of its 100-series and 200-series chipsets, even as it was repeatedly proven that those motherboards can run and overclock 9th generation processors with custom firmware just fine. Would MSI care to explain whether a B450M PRO-M2 has a stronger VRM than an X370 XPower Titanium to warrant "Zen 2" support? Will all "Zen 2" processor SKUs have steep electrical requirements? Will there not be any SKUs with double-digit-Watt TDP ratings?

Update (16/04): MSI posted a clarification on this issue.
Source: master3553 (Reddit)
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335 Comments on MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

#301
lexluthermiester
notbBut the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.
Which will not be a problem as all Ryzen 3 CPU's will be on 7nm and using LESS power per core. So if a board is design for an 8 core Ryzen 1 or 2, an 8 core Ryzen 3 will safely and perfectly run on the same board and because of the power savings, a 10 or 12 core model will very likely run just as safely. The same thing was true with The Core2 series. If it could run the 65nm Core2, the 45nm Core2 would run perfectly with just a BIOS update. How do you not understand this very simple dynamic? The technology has advanced and changed, but the same principle applies. This is especially true given that AMD has SPECIFICALLY engineered the chipsets to support these transitions. AMD knows what they're doing and as long as motherboard makers have complied with AMD's specifications, which they would have had to run the first and second gen CPU's, then Ryzen 3 will run perfectly with a firmware update.

For those(and the following) reasons your argument is without merit.
notbyou're quite badly informed.
Irony.
notbcompatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well).
Pointless posturing. All AM4 chipsets are electrically compatible with all Ryzen CPU's until AMD announces a change, which they haven't and have already said they won't for the next couple years. Boards based on them are required to support Ryzen 3(Zen2) at minimum.
Posted on Reply
#302
notb
R0H1TIt is especially 7nm EUV, just not at uber high clock speed I'd imagine ~ AMD Ryzen 3rd Gen 'Matisse' Coming Mid 2019: Eight Core Zen 2 with PCIe 4.0 on Desktop
It's not if they want to keep the same single-thread performance.
But sure: if they push the clocks low enough, 16 cores at 95W aren't a problem.

It might be that we'll see high-clocked 8-core and low-clocked 16-core models. Although it would be a weird offer for consumers (slow 16 cores useful for what?).
It's a different story in server segment, where such a choice has been true for many years.
IIRC AMD showed that at 7nm TSMC the power consumption will be lower by ~40% & then there's other improvements like IPC, IF & even PCIe 4.0 to account for.
Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.
Posted on Reply
#303
lexluthermiester
notbEverything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.
Seriously? You clearly didn't read the article cited. Ian's input was very clear on the matter and has yet to be refuted/corrected by AMD. Granted, it is his theory, but I'm going to take Ian's logic and reason based theory over your gibber-gabber all day long.
Posted on Reply
#304
R0H1T
notbIt's not if they want to keep the same single-thread performance.
But sure: if they push the clocks low enough, 16 cores at 95W aren't a problem.

It might be that we'll see high-clocked 8-core and low-clocked 16-core models. Although it would be a weird offer for consumers (slow 16 cores useful for what?).
It's a different story in server segment, where such a choice has been true for many years.

Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.
9900k isn't a 95W TDP processor either outside it's base clocks, just so you know.

Did you see the link, also EPYC (Zen2) reveal sometime earlier? AMD discussed the process characteristics of TSMC 7nm, it should be clear enough based on AT's power estimates that Zen2 (7nm TSMC) will be nearly 2x as efficient as Zen on GF 14nm, if not better than that.
Posted on Reply
#305
notb
lexluthermiesterWhich will not be a problem as all Ryzen 3 CPU's will be on 7nm and using LESS power per core. So if a board is design for an 8 core Ryzen 1 or 2, an 8 core Ryzen 3 will safely and perfectly run on the same board and because of the power savings, a 10 or 12 core model will very likely run just as safely.
I think you should talk with people more and spend less time building PCs.
Ask those who bought 8-core Ryzen system, with plans to upgrade later, if "10 or 12 core will likely run" is what they were expecting.
AMD knows what they're doing
It's your opinion. :)
as long as motherboard makers have complied with AMD's specifications, which they would have had to run the first and second gen CPU's, then Ryzen 3 will run perfectly with a firmware update.
So give me 1 reason why it's not official yet.
Why aren't all companies, AMD included, saying: of course you'll be able to run Zen2 on your x370.

Why is AMD silent?
Why is MSI "testing potential compatibility"?
Pointless posturing. All AM4 chipsets are electrically compatible with all Ryzen CPU's until AMD announces a change, which they haven't and have already said they won't for the next couple years. Boards based on them are required to support Ryzen 3(Zen2) at minimum.
Yeah. We'll see in few months. Someone will have a laugh, that's for sure. :)[/QUOTE]
R0H1T9900k isn't a 95W TDP processor outside it's base clocks, just so you know.
Of course it isn't. But it works on every board with a chipset that supports 9th gen.

This is what we're discussing here, right? Many people believed Ryzen 3000 will work on the AM4 motherboard they bought in 2017.
Did you see the link, also EPYC reveal sometime earlier? AMD discussed the process characteritics of TSMC 7nmm, it should be clear enough based on AT's power estimates that zen2 (7nm TSMC) will be nearly 2x as effcient as Zen on GF 14nm if not better.
Not possible. It makes no sense physically for an architecture to use half the power because it takes half the space. It wouldn't converge properly.
Well, unless we agree that Zen on GF 14nm was rubbish and there was a lot of place for improvement on it. And I really don't that was the case.
Posted on Reply
#306
R0H1T
notbOf course it isn't. But it works on every board with a chipset that supports 9th gen.

This is what we're discussing here, right? Many people believed Ryzen 3000 will work on the AM4 motherboard they bought in 2017.

Not possible. It makes no sense physically for an architecture to use half the power because it takes half the space. It wouldn't converge properly.
Well, unless we agree that Zen on GF 14nm was rubbish and there was a lot of place for improvement on it. And I really don't that was the case.
You know what, you make some unreal claims with whatever info you have on this topic :rolleyes:



Let me correct myself, it is indeed 50% less power i.e. at least 2x as efficient ~ www.anandtech.com/show/13578/naples-rome-milan-zen-4-an-interview-with-amd-cto-mark-papermaster
Posted on Reply
#307
lexluthermiester
notbI think you should talk with people more and spend less time building PCs.
Thanks for the tip.
notbAsk those who bought 8-core Ryzen system, with plans to upgrade later, if "10 or 12 core will likely run" is what they were expecting.
Um, don't be changing my comments to fit your narrative. I said VERY likely, as in almost guaranteed. Also, see below..
notbIt's your opinion. :)
Actions speak louder than words and AMD's actions show that they are on-form. Not really an opinion as it is conclusion based on demonstrable track record.
notbYeah. We'll see in few months. Someone will have a laugh, that's for sure.
Are you done being a troll picking a fight? Grow up a little.

The facts are, AMD designed the Ryzen series with upgrades specifically in mind. They have stated clearly that AM4 will be supported for several iterations of the Ryzen line. Motherboard makers are required, by contract, to follow with that design specification. Again, your nay-saying argument has no merit.
Posted on Reply
#308
Melvis
GoldenX3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1.
Link please.
notbBut the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.
I think most people hope that they'll be able to upgrade to more cores - not the same number of them, just using 20% less power.

For such an AMD fan, you're quite badly informed.
Currently available BIOS upgrades are for 3000-series APUs, which will be based on Zen+. So basically, it's the same tech these motherboards support already - they just need additional data to detect them.
3000-series APUs will likely be launched in May.

Ryzen 3000-series based on Zen 2 (chiplets, 7nm) is coming later and compatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well). Whatever that means. Maybe AMD simply didn't allow them to go public yet.

If older motherboards (chipsets) simply can't work with chiplets, then it's a sad but fairly controllable case - people will have to replace them.
If it's an issue with power supply or something like that, MSI will have to cover the more power hungry 12/16-core CPUs somehow (lock cores, underclock etc).
Link? because far as I am aware they are all under the same BIOS update as they are on the same die as shown in all the leaks from the past few months.

Everything else you say about MSI is false as they have already released a press update about the false news.
Posted on Reply
#309
GoldenX
MelvisLink please.



Link? because far as I am aware they are all under the same BIOS update as they are on the same die as shown in all the leaks from the past few months.

Everything else you say about MSI is false as they have already released a press update about the false news.
www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-apu
Posted on Reply
#311
nemesis.ie
@Melvis The original qute you asked for the link for did say "APU" though. ;)


"GoldenX said:
3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1."
Posted on Reply
#312
Melvis
nemesis.ie@Melvis The original qute you asked for the link for did say "APU" though. ;)


"GoldenX said:
3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1."
Yes but not mobile APU's as that was never discussed at all in any of the posts I mentioned. :p
Posted on Reply
#313
GoldenX
The leak doesn't has a chiplet.
Posted on Reply
#314
GoldenX
Beta BIOS with Zen2 support for B350 chipsets.
Posted on Reply
#315
moomeacow
so was this article bullshit I didn't read through 13 pages but I see beta bios already out 7/16. I think if msi actually did block it, every person who bought their cards including me would never buy their mother boards again. i'm still on 1800x i'll probably upgrade when zen 4 is out, not in a hurry to be on the latest hardware.
Posted on Reply
#317
lexluthermiester
Leonardo Oscar Morellatowe need a moderator to close the thread if msi did support latest ryzen on 300 series chipset
They have and even on A320 boards.
Posted on Reply
#318
Space Lynx
Astronaut
yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.
Posted on Reply
#319
biffzinker
lynx29yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.
The Ryzen 3 1200 might be useful for flashing with support for Bristol Ridge going away.
Posted on Reply
#320
lexluthermiester
lynx29yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.
Most people looking to upgrade their CPU almost certainly already have one to flash the BIOS with. Trivial issue IMO.
Posted on Reply
#321
Mussels
Freshwater Moderator
lexluthermiesterMost people looking to upgrade their CPU almost certainly already have one to flash the BIOS with. Trivial issue IMO.
true for people already on ryzen, not true for people wanting to get into 3rd gen, without getting x570

the x470 and b450 refresh boards will be flowing out soon enough, for 'value' ryzen 3000 options
Posted on Reply
#322
nemesis.ie
One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?
Posted on Reply
#323
Mussels
Freshwater Moderator
nemesis.ieOne would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?
open the boxes, assemble into a test bench, flash the BIOS (potentially removing certain features like APU support) and put it back in the box, then potentially sell it for less as an open-box product? not a chance
Posted on Reply
#324
nemesis.ie
A lot of them put the box sleeve on at time of shipping I think.

That could also be done as a "value add" (small charge) for customers and would also be a lot cheaper than having to restock/return a board that didn't work.

Some of the vendors already provide CPU and RAM insertion services.
Posted on Reply
#325
EarthDog
nemesis.ieThat could also be done as a "value add" (small charge) for customers and would also be a lot cheaper than having to restock/return a board that didn't work.
This is valid...

...vendors are not AIBs.
Posted on Reply
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