Vayra86You say that, but the US middle class is living on debt while the Chinese middle class is on the rise (and the demand for luxuries is growing very fast over there) so you are looking at a stagnant/declining market versus a growth market. If the US wants to import a lot less, and get it from their own soil instead, that also means cost will go up which means the average household is not capable of buying as much as they used to do.

It doesn't take much in economy classes to see which is more promising. And that doesn't even consider the difference in size. China's got pretty damn many people.

Don't forget China has a social points based system now too, so if they can trade that instead of currency as incentive to their citizens, to push them certain ways on some things. They banned several million Chinese from travelling due to bad social credit. I imagine this system will gain in power and influence in the long term. I foresee it even being a form of currency for them, forced building of whatever China wants (nuclear power plants, certain industries, etc) and they will be able to incentive with social credits. It's going to be a long term smart move for them, when Xi Jinping says I want more nuclear power plants to be built, they get built at the snap of a finger. America still has lead in its water in a lot of places in comparison, lol greed and envy rule the contractors, so instead of competition lowering contract bids, the few companies left are on cahoots together and refuse to go below a certain point because they know how easy it is to scam now when bidding on large projects. California couldn't even finish a single high speed rail line... and they are the most advanced state in the country... lol -China has a bunch being built right now for fraction of the cost.

China's long term will be very very good. They already stole enough RnD to last them a long time, no one can touch them, the tariffs are hardly a slap in the face to them, Xi Jinping knows what he is doing, trust me haha

I still prefer living in America, I am just saying, long term folks. ;p

lynx29Don't forget China has a social points based system now too, so if they can trade that instead of currency as incentive to their citizens, to push them certain ways on some things. They banned several million Chinese from travelling due to bad social credit. I imagine this system will gain in power and influence in the long term. I foresee it even being a form of currency for them, forced building of whatever China wants (nuclear power plants, certain industries, etc) and they will be able to incentive with social credits. It's going to be a long term smart move for them, when Xi Jinping says I want more nuclear power plants to be built, they get built at the snap of a finger. America still has lead in its water in a lot of places in comparison, lol greed and envy rule the contractors, so instead of competition lowering contract bids, the few companies left are on cahoots together and refuse to go below a certain point because they know how easy it is to scam now when bidding on large projects. California couldn't even finish a single high speed rail line... and they are the most advanced state in the country... lol -China has a bunch being built right now for fraction of the cost.

China's long term will be very very good. They already stole enough RnD to last them a long time, no one can touch them, the tariffs are hardly a slap in the face to them, Xi Jinping knows what he is doing, trust me haha

I still prefer living in America, I am just saying, long term folks. ;p

The problem with that outlook is the population. Social credit system and (effectively) oppression of both body and mind has historically shown not to last very long. That is especially true in todays' global village. Effectively what you have in China is also a democracy of sorts. Today a majority benefits from the current system, and the poor can look up at a new middle class for something to strive for. There is also a somewhat rigid form of equality in China, although geography plays a major role (but it doesn't have a caste/class system as strict as for example India does), so opportunity exists for many. I think if Xi pushes things a bit too far, this can turn around quickly. Another aspect that cannot be ignored is 'the price of progress'. Chinese cities are major smog hubs with extremely poor air quality and lower life expectancy, while in the countryside there is simply nothing to go to for many miles. This doesn't sit well with the population either, I'm sure.

After all, you only live once and what use is working hard if you die at early age. Wealth is measured by a quality of life, and that's more than money. The Chinese are now figuring that out and there's already a push for more responsible use of the planet, its all connected.

We've already seen many examples of how afraid the regime is for any sort of internal conflict, and that fear is justified. It requires just one man in front of a tank to change the perception of many...

On our 'Western/democractic' end we have a different situation. We have the advantage of flexibility, it is one of the cornerstones of democracy. It changes along with the will of the people. Perhaps not always as fast as we'd like, but still. It changes and is open to change.

(see sig :p)

lynx29Don't forget China has a social points based system now too, so if they can trade that instead of currency as incentive to their citizens, to push them certain ways on some things. They banned several million Chinese from travelling due to bad social credit. I imagine this system will gain in power and influence in the long term. I foresee it even being a form of currency for them, forced building of whatever China wants (nuclear power plants, certain industries, etc) and they will be able to incentive with social credits. It's going to be a long term smart move for them, when Xi Jinping says I want more nuclear power plants to be built, they get built at the snap of a finger. America still has lead in its water in a lot of places in comparison, lol greed and envy rule the contractors, so instead of competition lowering contract bids, the few companies left are on cahoots together and refuse to go below a certain point because they know how easy it is to scam now when bidding on large projects. California couldn't even finish a single high speed rail line... and they are the most advanced state in the country... lol -China has a bunch being built right now for fraction of the cost.

China's long term will be very very good. They already stole enough RnD to last them a long time, no one can touch them, the tariffs are hardly a slap in the face to them, Xi Jinping knows what he is doing, trust me haha

I still prefer living in America, I am just saying, long term folks. ;p

California is crippled by spending too many tax dollars on Social Welfare programs. They are not advanced in that regard.

From most news sources Chinese people are not content with the current state of affairs. They aren't laying down under tanks right now to protest but things could escalate if the tariffs cause economic hardship.

Vayra86It doesn't take much in economy classes to see which is more promising. And that doesn't even consider the difference in size. China's got pretty damn many people.

I don't know about economy classes but I do know why China is building the OBOR at a cost exceeding $1 trillion at the top end of the estimate! I think I said this before, the Chinese economy is built on a model which relies on exports. In fact exports are so lopsided, needed for growth, that their internal consumption will never truly replace that part of the economy ever. Of course this assumes China wants to grow at least around 5~6% for the foreseeable future. If they're happy with US levels of growth I'm sure internal consumption can replace exports as the engine of economy gradually. They will eventually transition to more services driven exports but that's a long term plan.

The market decides what happens, much more so than any geo-political or oppressive military interventions. Countries with a solid infrastructural foundations
and sound monetary systems naturally have a big advantage on the international scene.

Interesting times ahead indeed.

In Europe the taxes are way over 50%, so US guys...chill out. ;)

Prima.VeraIn Europe the taxes are way over 50%, so US guys...chill out. ;)

Out of fuel I don't remember any other product which would have priced that over 50% of it is taxes. Normal VAT is 19-25%(depending on the country and yeah there's lowered VAT for foods etc.) + possible tariffs(depending on the product).

Any country that manufactures and sells more goods than it buys makes money which is in turn good for their economy.
Any country that buys more goods than it sells has it's economy suffer in comparison.

Wages paid in China are way below what the American worker gets paid for the same basic job lowering manufaturing costs for them.

Even if it's goods are sold for a lower price the manufacturer in China still makes money vs the ones here that pays employees more and will sell more simply due to the lower selling price - Maybe not per unit sold but in volume and it doesn't have to be as much in volume as you'd think due to the decreased price to make per unit.

Also consider that in China the conditions which workers are made to live under vs here - You either have a job or you will have one soon.
You don't show up for work one day, they will on your doorstep and make it happen.

This equals a form of slavery and they can produce the manufacturing volume because of it, no off days, holidays, sick days or anything else - Just more work (Sacrifice) each and everyday without end.

China has planned this for decades and is in for the long haul, I can guarantee the majority of stuff found most anywhere in the world on a store shelf now has "Made in China" on it somewhere for good reason.

China plays by a different set of rules in business, social and moral in nature, they do steal tech and whatever else they can and exploit it to the fullest.... It's just what they do because that's how they do it.
And it's been working.

The need to take action to slow or even stop this has been long overdue and I'm glad to see Trump taking action in some form at least because no one else ever has before.

A lot of americans are really on edge.
wallstreetonparade.com/2019/04/gallup-polls-show-america-is-dangerously-moving-in-the-wrong-direction/

BonesAlso consider that in China the conditions which workers are made to live under vs here - You either have a job or you will have one soon.
You don't show up for work one day, they will on your doorstep and make it happen.

This equals a form of slavery and they can produce the manufacturing volume because of it, no off days, holidays, sick days or anything else - Just more work (Sacrifice) each and everyday without end.

China has planned this for decades and is in for the long haul, I can guarantee the majority of stuff found most anywhere in the world on a store shelf now has "Made in China" on it somewhere for good reason.

China plays by a different set of rules in business, social and moral in nature, they do steal tech and whatever else they can and exploit it to the fullest.... It's just what they do because that's how they do it.
And it's been working.

The need to take action to slow or even stop this has been long overdue and I'm glad to see Trump taking action in some form at least because no one else ever has before.

You can't blame this all on China, you asked for it ~ you got it! How can a T shirt shipped from half way across the world be cheaper than something made in USA? It's because you wanted dollar stores, cheap electronics, cheap gas, cheap everything! What's the avg resource consumption of an American as compared to a Chinese, or worse sub Sahara Africans? If you ask me a lot of the developing world is paying through their sleep, sweat, blood & tears to ensure that much of the West stays clean, prosperous & gets to enjoy their luxuries which the vast majority of the third world can ill afford!

If you're pointing a finger at China you have four pointing towards you! Stop expending so much gas, stop buying stuff that's useless after a use or two, stop expecting cheap things when the "resource cost" of such products far exceeds what you'd get if Made in USA ~ even at a much higher price! If you can't restrain your urges then you have no right to blame others, the US exploited WTO to get this globalization gig going. Now granted China is doing the same & exploiting it arguably to a much worse degree, however it's a two-way street & no one's blameless in this real life Game of Thrones!

RoddeyA lot of americans are really on edge.
wallstreetonparade.com/2019/04/gallup-polls-show-america-is-dangerously-moving-in-the-wrong-direction/

BS poll from a proven Anti-Trump entity.
TBH, same kind of poll can be taken from a Pro-Trump entity and the results would be competely flipped.

Depends on who was asked the question and I can promise you these kind of polls have a target demographic to ask them to for getting the desired results according to who's doing the asking.

R0H1TYou can't blame this all on China, you asked for it ~ you got it! How can a T shirt shipped from half way across the world be cheaper than something made in USA? It's because you wanted dollar stores cheap electronics, cheap gas, cheap everything! What the avg resource consumption of an American as compared to a Chinese, or worse sub Sahara Africans? If you ask me a lot of the developing world is paying through their sleep, sweat, blood & tears to ensure that much of the West stays clean, prosperous & gets to enjoy their luxuries which the vast majority of the third world can ill afford!

If you're pointing a finger at China you have four pointing towards you! Stop expending so much gas, stop buying stuff that's useless after a use or two, stop expecting cheap things when the "resource cost" of such products far exceeds what you'd get if Made in USA ~ even at a much higher price! If you can't restrain your urges then you have no right to blame others, the US exploited WTO to get this globalization gig going. Now granted China is doing the same & exploiting it arguably to a much worse degree, however it's a two-way street & no one blameless in this real life Game of Thrones!

Applies as a society/country but not in a personal way to anyone except for those with the power to make those decisions. You made a few good points along the same lines I did and it's really sad.... And true.
All I did was to tell it the way it's been for decades now.

Would be personally relevant IF I were the one in charge of what was made where but I'm not.

BonesBS poll from a proven Anti-Trump entity.
TBH, same kind of poll can be taken from a Pro-Trump entity and the results would be competely flipped.

Depends on who was asked the question and I can promise you these kind of polls have a target demographic to ask them to for getting the desired results according to who's doing the asking.



Applies as a society/country but not in a personal way to anyone except for those with the power to make those decisions. You made a few good points along the same lines I did and it's really sad.... And true.
All I did was to tell it the way it's been for decades now.

Would be personally relevant IF I were the one in charge of what was made where but I'm not.

Show me an American that isnt in the 1% that isnt always stressed out about there incomes. Even retirees are worried and there is a class that should feel secure. Not everything is propaganda.
Maybe I should change that, even Peter Thiel has a bug out house in New Zealand.

As a buyer, anyone has the power to change those decisions.
Just don't change your iPhones every 6 months.

All this before the new consoles come out. A lot of PC components are from Taiwan or South Korea, but some are from China. Including the game consoles, prebuilt computers, accessories. What we may end up seeing is cheaper or less capable goods rather than the same goods at a higher price. They will aim to get the same profit margins by cutting corners. I for one think this is horrible policy and Trump is wrong when he says China is paying for it. They may be trying to dull the impact a bit, but you can't hide an artificial 25% hike.

It was more of a general comment & applies to me just as well. Frankly I've been against this consumption driven growth model which is really punishing the earth & is extremely wasteful. Coming back to China ~ what they now know is that if you price goods low enough there will always be some demand for it, this is why they've pegged the Yuan to $ (among other reasons) & continue to be uber competitive on the export front. Now the worst part of this is that they can't move away from merchandise exports & they've really polluted the environment in China to get this rapid growth going, it's lost less of a worry in mainland atm however with OBOR it's become a problem for about half of the developing world.

Vayra86The problem with that outlook is the population. Social credit system and (effectively) oppression of both body and mind has historically shown not to last very long. That is especially true in todays' global village. Effectively what you have in China is also a democracy of sorts. Today a majority benefits from the current system, and the poor can look up at a new middle class for something to strive for. There is also a somewhat rigid form of equality in China, although geography plays a major role (but it doesn't have a caste/class system as strict as for example India does), so opportunity exists for many. I think if Xi pushes things a bit too far, this can turn around quickly. Another aspect that cannot be ignored is 'the price of progress'. Chinese cities are major smog hubs with extremely poor air quality and lower life expectancy, while in the countryside there is simply nothing to go to for many miles. This doesn't sit well with the population either, I'm sure.

After all, you only live once and what use is working hard if you die at early age. Wealth is measured by a quality of life, and that's more than money. The Chinese are now figuring that out and there's already a push for more responsible use of the planet, its all connected.

We've already seen many examples of how afraid the regime is for any sort of internal conflict, and that fear is justified. It requires just one man in front of a tank to change the perception of many...

On our 'Western/democractic' end we have a different situation. We have the advantage of flexibility, it is one of the cornerstones of democracy. It changes along with the will of the people. Perhaps not always as fast as we'd like, but still. It changes and is open to change.

(see sig :p)

China is still a democracy of sorts? Did you miss the news, Xi Jinping declared himself President for Life

I know it is hard to do because of the topic but it is still possible to have a civilized discussion without interjecting your bias political view. That being said, thread cleansed;)

I just want to know what happened yesterday that inspired Trump to do this. It was a shock to everyone and even the military was involved (ships in contested South China Sea)

RoddeyShow me an American that isnt in the 1% that isnt always stressed out about there incomes. Even retirees are worried and there is a class that should feel secure. Not everything is propaganda.
Maybe I should change that, even Peter Thiel has a bug out house in New Zealand.

No, not everything is propagana and not everything is truth either.
You'll never find someone that isn't stressed about it in some way no matter where you look but the reasons for the stress vary from an absolute need for survival to a simple "want" of something, be it something better or they just want it period.
We're a society taught to buy even if it means going into debt over it, even money itself is being presented as a "Product" you can get through things like loans and such.

To be in debt is never a good thing because you just can't borrow yourself out of debt - Doesn't work that way nor ever will.

R0H1TIt was more of a general comment & applies to me just as well. Frankly I've been against this consumption driven growth model which is really punishing the earth & is extremely wasteful. Coming back to China ~ what they now know is that if you price goods low enough there will always be some demand for it, this is why they've pegged the Yuan to $ (among other reasons) & continue to be uber competitive on the export front. Now the worst part of this is that they can't move away from merchandise exports & they've really polluted the environment in China to get this rapid growth going, it's lost less of a worry in mainland atm however with OBOR it's become a problem for about half of the developing world.

Oh yeah, I can't exactly say I'm not part of it either but if you want or need something, let's say for example the newest chip for your machine you don't have a fab in your backyard to make it with - I certainly don't.
China has made themselves attractive to business over the years and lured companies in to the point they now have a commanding lead in so many areas of manufacturing hence "Made in China" on most anything you'll find now.
This is one point of why these things need to change and only "We" can make it happen.
If not you can expect more of the same from here on and it's up to us.... Too bad most of "Us" don't have any actual say over this.

BonesNo, not everything is propagana and not everything is truth either.
You'll never find someone that isn't stressed about it in some way no matter where you look but the reasons for the stress vary from an absolute need for survival to a simple "want" of something, be it something better or they just want it period.
We're a society taught to buy even if it means going into debt over it, even money itself is being presented as a "Product" you can get through things like loans and such.

To be in debt is never a good thing because you just can't borrow yourself out of debt - Doesn't work that way nor ever will.



Oh yeah, I can't exactly say I'm not part of it either but if you want or need something, let's say for example the newest chip for your machine you don't have a fab in your backyard to make it with - I certainly don't.
China has made themselves attractive to business over the years and lured companies in to the point they now have a commanding lead in so many areas of manufacturing hence "Made in China" on most anything you'll find now.
This is one point of why these things need to change and only "We" can make it happen.
If not you can expect more of the same from here on and it's up to us.... Too bad most of "Us" don't have any actual say over this.

I am not talking about debt. I am referring to retirees who had big financial losses in the financial crises of 2008 and have never recovered. Now cuts in SS and Medicare, after a round by the previous administration. I am talking about direct severe reduction of incomes in the retiree classes.

I don't think anyone will notice the impact. Maybe certain items. Maybe not.....

Some chips cost around 30 cents to a few dollars...then get shipped here and assembled; or vice versa....
I do see it as another excuse for companies to raise their prices anyhow.

Remember mining anyone? We still haven't recovered from those inflated prices; and probably never will.....
That price hike had a bigger effect of GPU's & CPU's than this B.S. "talk or threat" ever will....
Can't blame Trump or Xi Jinping for 2017-2018 mining craze.

I wouldn't worry about this too much; its just Trump & Xi Jinping trying to see
who has bigger ballz....

5-10 years from now when China is really ready to invade the US....now that will be news.
But their still building their Military and raising the largest Army in the history of the world.
The interesting thing is there finally starting to put all that RND info they stole for the last 30 years to good use!!
Their newest stealth fighter may actually work!!

Now I'm out; I know I said that a few hours ago...but i got board...

Happy Monday all!!!

jabbadapOut of fuel I don't remember any other product which would have priced that over 50% of it is taxes. Normal VAT is 19-25%(depending on the country and yeah there's lowered VAT for foods etc.) + possible tariffs(depending on the product).

Income tax - ie the worst one of them all. We have a few tax scales over here and the top one is above or around 50% (changes from time to time, but general trend is up).

BonesTo be in debt is never a good thing because you just can't borrow yourself out of debt - Doesn't work that way nor ever will.

Greece would like a word with you ;) And system banks too.

juisemanI don't think anyone will notice the impact. Maybe certain items. Maybe not.....

Some chips cost around 30 cents to a few dollars...then get shipped here and assembled; or vice versa....
I do see it as another excuse for companies to raise their prices anyhow.

Remember mining anyone? We still haven't recovered from those inflated prices; and probably never will.....
That price hike had a bigger effect of GPU's & CPU's than this B.S. "talk or threat" ever will....
Can't blame Trump or Xi Jinping for 2017-2018 mining craze.

I wouldn't worry about this too much; its just Trump & Xi Jinping trying to see
who has bigger ballz....

5-10 years from now when China is really ready to invade the US....now that will be news.
But their still building their Military and raising the largest Army in the history of the world.
The interesting thing is there finally starting to put all that RND info they stole for the last 30 years to good use!!
Their newest stealth fighter may actually work!!

Now I'm out; I know I said that a few hours ago...but i got board...

Happy Monday all!!!

China has attained their current economic status by maintaining double digit growth in their economy. Those days are over. Now they are trying to test the waters of being a superpower but that costs a lot of money.

USA Defense Spending around 600 billion dollars

China Defense Spending around 147 billion dollars

imo China is overreaching and will fail the tariff war.

Dave65Snip

But it's the same America that has been around for decades. What has changed?

64KChina has attained their current economic status by maintaining double digit growth in their economy. Those days are over. Now they are trying to test the waters of being a superpower but that costs a lot of money.

USA Defense Spending around 600 billion dollars

China Defense Spending around 147 billion dollars

imo China is overreaching and will fail the tariff war.

no, USA defense spending is 826 billion, you forgot about Trump's increasing of their budget. this number is 3 years old, Trump has increased it since then, I imagine its closer to 1 trillion now.

it's ok though, just keep printing money and raising the debt ceiling. ;)

usafacts.org/government-finances/spending?comparison=by_government_type&government_type=combined&table=spending--by-mission&year=2016