I also agree - it is the people paying these outrageous prices that are at fault. But once the price increases reach the ceiling for what they can afford, then they will cry and moan about them not realizing that they were the ones that enabled the companies to gouge them.

TBH i don't see many worthwhile new games so it is another reason not to buy overpriced GPUs...

@Caring1 "haha" is a very compelling argument indeed. :rolleyes:

Too much demand, too little supply. Usually by this time of the cycle the last gen would be selling at clearance but its clearly not the case.

RandAlThorit is the people paying these outrageous prices that are at fault.

This is a weird opinion.
People pay what they can afford and that's it , they are not to blame for that.

Now when NVIDIA claim that there is so much demand that they can not follow .. its kind of a white lie.
Graphics Bord shipping is the same in 2020 that it was in 2019 and has drop about 33% from the 2016-2018 years. (and I'm not taking mining into account, it about -50% if i factor mining)
Bord manufacturer complain that in 2020 there are even less high end gpu available than there was in 2019..

So yes NVIDIA can no follow the demand.. but they produce a lot less GPU than what they use to... hard to say if it is nvidia or samsung fault

I think you guys are being too harsh. A 3060 is not the same comparatively as the 960 was, most likely you will still get performance bumps at the same price (lets call it 200$ mark) on this gen, now on the 10 gen you didn't really get that at launch. Sure its being called 3060 but you get 10more cards in between now days in comparison to the older gens which makes the naming meaningless really. You should go by same-ish price to performance increase instead.

All I can say we desperately need to revive antitrust laws. This is by the book definition of non equilibrium duopoly in a market of homogeneous goods where one firm is a price-maker (Ngreedia) and the other smaller firm a price-taker (AMD). In such market prices go up, because both participants profit from a lack of competition. This can only be resolved by strong third party entering the market, or a government regulating profit margins on goods.

Nvidia sets new price performance ratio, AMD agrees, they both profit from it, not interested in competing for the market share. Just look at the prices... 3080 (more features) $699, AMD settles for $649 with 6800XT... 3070 again sets the price bar, AMD doesn't compete but agrees it by pricing faster 6800 above it. The only real disruption to Nvidia was 5900XT, but then again Green team always knew 3090 was ridiculously bad value, but was hoping AMD could not catch it. Now it will just rebrand it to 3080TI and offer it at (if it's slower) or a bit above 5900XT pricing because of more features. I bet we will see 3060(TI) at $350/400 and AMD accepting pricing with 6700(XT) by being around the same price mark. There is NO real competition in the DIY PC market left.

Given where 6800 is, AMD should have no problem rolling out well priced cards that wipe the floor with 3060Ti.

zilulPeople are getting out of their mind with this corona crisis, the man dare to say 400$ is the new budget lmao, thats a console price with the whole CPU/GPU/SSD package.

I'm done with the tech community, people in there are the epitome of compulsive consumerism and selfishness, they don't know that the way they spend their money blindly is also affecting those who are really in need of such hardware or the less fortunate.

You can't have respect for those who can't even manage to resist a simple commodity purchase.

I agree with your point, but it's always been considered a hobby (gaming/technologies unless you work in an IT sector), regardless of how much someone justifies their purchase, it's still an unchained hobby. Nobody is holding you from not purchasing certain items and people will always be selfish, because this is another open debate board on the internet. No real life punishment for expressing wrong opinion.

As for consumerism, people with larger incomes are given excuse to take a chill time with their income, because when money isn't an issue, you don't have to in-depth plan monthly spending or worry about making ends meet and for that reason microtransactions and general tech milking exists.

RandAlThorTBH i don't see many worthwhile new games so it is another reason not to buy overpriced GPUs...

Pretty much my reason why I haven't stepped up from 1050Ti just yet... Nowadays I only play older SW games (Fallen Order is a part of Disney's canon and I boycott anything related to Disney's current canon including Mandalorian TV show) and even those don't require OP GPU to drive modded textures at 4K. I keep coming back to older games I've never played, because of 1) originality, 2) quality and balanced content as opposed to current 100 hour grindfests nowadays games have.

zilulDunno who's the lucky one, the one who value his hard earned money by making reasonable decision or the one who compulsively burn his money to escape reality, regardless the consequences on those around him.

And judging the guy brings exactly what, debate wise?

On point, i think the price of gaming experience is rising higher than inflation, at least here in Canada. Around 1440p 60 fps is doable on a budget (read used market here) but a new system will cost 1k, with around half being spent on gpu. Buying new is just so expensive!

This is from a guy making around two times average income...

lynx29$400 and it beats a 2080 super? honestly this might be the new budget king. especially if more games support DLSS later on

never buy hardware on the promise of future support...

RedelZaVednoAll I can say we desperately need to revive antitrust laws. This is by the book definition of non equilibrium duopoly in a market of homogeneous goods where one firm is a price-maker (Ngreedia) and the other smaller firm a price-taker (AMD). In such market prices go up, because both participants profit from a lack of competition. This can only be resolved by strong third party entering the market, or a government regulating profit margins on goods.

Nvidia sets new price performance ratio, AMD agrees, they both profit from it, not interested in competing for the market share. Just look at the prices... 3080 (more features) $699, AMD settles for $649 with 6800XT... 3070 again sets the price bar, AMD doesn't compete but agrees it by pricing faster 6800 above it. The only real disruption to Nvidia was 5900XT, but then again Green team always knew 3090 was ridiculously bad value, but was hoping AMD could not catch it. Now it will just rebrand it to 3080TI and offer it at (if it's slower) or a bit above 5900XT pricing because of more features. I bet we will see 3060(TI) at $350/400 and AMD accepting pricing with 6700(XT) by being around the same price mark. There is NO real competition in the DIY PC market left.

Player 3 aka Intel is trying very hard, they are nowhere close to being competitive yet. No amount of antitrust will solve the duopoly issue.

FourstaffPlayer 3 aka Intel is trying very hard, they are nowhere close to being competitive yet. No amount of antitrust will solve the duopoly issue.

Break Nvidia up and you'll end up with more competitors on the market. It's as simple as that. Government broke up robber barons' oligopolies in late 19th-century, Roosevelt stopped the formation of the NSC and broke Standard Oil into 3 competing companies under the Sherman Act back in 1911... Same thing needs to happen to tech giants today. They have obtained way too much social and market power.

ObiFrostI agree with your point, but it's always been considered a hobby (gaming/technologies unless you work in an IT sector), regardless of how much someone justifies their purchase, it's still an unchained hobby. Nobody is holding you from not purchasing certain items and people will always be selfish, because this is another open debate board on the internet. No real life punishment for expressing wrong opinion.

As for consumerism, people with larger incomes are given excuse to take a chill time with their income, because when money isn't an issue, you don't have to in-depth plan monthly spending or worry about making ends meet and for that reason microtransactions and general tech milking exists.

Yea everyone is free to do whatever they want until it start affecting you and your purchasing power, because yes as I said we live in society and a complex economy that are tightly linked, if the majority start to consume foolishly and selfishly we might as well reach a point of no return, I mean people rolling on debts because "hobbies" and the reasonable one's paying the bills with them...

Caring1You're living in the past, prices go up, deal with it.

Well I'm not sure about that. If you speak of 'inflation'... isn't Moore's Law supposed to counteract that, and then some?

Year over year, the same performance is still becoming (much) cheaper with every release of products. Corporate and commerce wants you to believe everything is more difficult and they present new hurdles for their products to chew on, but reality still is that its super cheap to game at a very playable resolution, at high FPS and high settings with nothing more than a lower midrange card. Let's face it, the game's no different at 1080p which we already consider 'High Definition'.

As I said... I'm gaming on 3440x1440 now and while I don't play the latest greatest right away at launch, I can still push comfortable FPS in most games with a measly 1080 - the high end of 4 years ago. If its an isometric game / not full 3D viewport, I can even keep 100+ FPS with no issues in most games. Its all about balancing out your wishlist with your budget and performance on tap. Ergo: Timing.

I'm attributing the whole fuss about scalpers and limited supply/high demand to the current day fashion of 'everyone is special' / 'Entitlement generation'. Everyone must have the latest greatest, because otherwise you don't count or you're a lesser person, or something. I'm not sure how people expect to keep up that rat race and keep a healthy financial situation. That only happens on social media (or 'Teevee').

And commerce is the primary enabler. They feed us with new carrots. The ultimate question is whether you're the horse chasing it, or just sit back and pick up the carrots when they're no longer the object in focus. Experience taught me its much easier to pick those up without sweating one bit - and its the exact same carrot, minus the early adopter woes. Games are no different. The frontline of technology is utter shite to consume, let it age.

Vayra86Well I'm not sure about that. If you speak of 'inflation'... isn't Moore's Law supposed to counteract that, and then some?

Year over year, the same performance is still becoming (much) cheaper with every release of products. Corporate and commerce wants you to believe everything is more difficult and they present new hurdles for their products to chew on, but reality still is that its super cheap to game at a very playable resolution, at high FPS and high settings with nothing more than a lower midrange card. Let's face it, the game's no different at 1080p which we already consider 'High Definition'.

As I said... I'm gaming on 3440x1440 now and while I don't play the latest greatest right away at launch, I can still push comfortable FPS in most games with a measly 1080 - the high end of 4 years ago. If its an isometric game / not full 3D viewport, I can even keep 100+ FPS with no issues in most games. Its all about balancing out your wishlist with your budget and performance on tap. Ergo: Timing.

I'm attributing the whole fuss about scalpers and limited supply/high demand to the current day fashion of 'everyone is special' / 'Entitlement generation'. Everyone must have the latest greatest, because otherwise you don't count or you're a lesser person, or something. I'm not sure how people expect to keep up that rat race and keep a healthy financial situation. That only happens on social media (or 'Teevee').

And commerce is the primary enabler. They feed us with new carrots. The ultimate question is whether you're the horse chasing it, or just sit back and pick up the carrots when they're no longer the object in focus. Experience taught me its much easier to pick those up without sweating one bit - and its the exact same carrot, minus the early adopter woes. Games are no different. The frontline of technology is utter shite to consume, let it age.

It does not help the fact that wafers at nodes below 12/16nm are very expensive. It doesn't matter if that wafer is coming from Samsung or TSMC or any other foundry. It is not cheap. I actually work in this industry and get too see the cost for wafers when we tape out. Going from 12nm to 7nm increases per wafer cost 4x or higher depending on our die sizes. This cost directly translates to how much the chips will be sold to consumers for, and obviously market forces.

bencrutzwhat the new console demand got to do with nvidia GPU supply? how can it relate? they're on a different foundry, right?

Who the fuck knows on what foundry what is made? It's a resource war, anyway. You need pretty much the same precious metals and workers for both. That's all in high demand right now, I would say, especially because of the new Consoles coming out. Would be more so, if it was on the same foundry, but it doesn't have to be to have an effect.

|cpmPeople pay what they can afford and that's it , they are not to blame for that.

This is the only right answer in this whole thread. Stop searching for a boogyman.

|cpmNow when NVIDIA claim that there is so much demand that they can not follow .. its kind of a white lie.
Graphics Bord shipping is the same in 2020 that it was in 2019 and has drop about 33% from the 2016-2018 years. (and I'm not taking mining into account, it about -50% if i factor mining)
Bord manufacturer complain that in 2020 there are even less high end gpu available than there was in 2019..

So yes NVIDIA can no follow the demand.. but they produce a lot less GPU than what they use to... hard to say if it is nvidia or samsung fault

Maybe it's just harder to make as many GPUs on a much smaller node... Basically what MxPhenom 216 just said.


I'm guessing that most people who whine about these prices can still afford them. Otherwise, we wouldn't see these cards being sold out everywhere. Just as we wouldn't see PS5s being sold on eBay for $1000 when MSRP is $399. You can probably still just afford them as much as you could just afford $200 for a budget card 4 years ago. I'm guessing that most people are just doing better financially than 4 years ago although they still like to whine. Otherwise, who is paying all this money to "greedy" Ngreedia.... No, Nvidia is just as greedy as the customers who stuff money in Nvidia's pockets. They basically just open their pocket and people rush to fill them. How is that greedy?

invest in bitcoin you can them really easy

travel back to 2013 and got bitcoin and back to order $2000 cards

RedelZaVednoBreak Nvidia up and you'll end up with more competitors on the market. It's as simple as that. Government broke up robber barons' oligopolies in late 19th-century, Roosevelt stopped the formation of the NSC and broke Standard Oil into 3 competing companies under the Sherman Act back in 1911... Same thing needs to happen to tech giants today. They have obtained way too much social and market power.

The government also broke up Ma Bell in 1982, look how well THAT turned out. Instead of 1 monopoly, it was 4, now 3, that control parts of the country and abuse their position to charge relentless amounts of money.

Also, the GPU industry is not the oil industry or the telecom industry. There is nothing stopping, say, samsung or intel from creating their own GPU contenders. Turns out making a good GPU is REALLY REALLY HARD, and the market for hgih end models is not large enough to incentivise other companies to compete.

zilulYea everyone is free to do whatever they want until it start affecting you and your purchasing power, because yes as I said we live in society and a complex economy that are tightly linked, if the majority start to consume foolishly and selfishly we might as well reach a point of no return, I mean people rolling on debts because "hobbies" and the reasonable one's paying the bills with them...

Dude, calm down, its a graphic card. If it gets too expensive you get to miss out on the latest cash grab from AAA studios. People are stupid with their money, and have been stupid with their money, ever since money was a concept. No level of societal control will fix that.

Vayra86Well I'm not sure about that. If you speak of 'inflation'... isn't Moore's Law supposed to counteract that, and then some?

Year over year, the same performance is still becoming (much) cheaper with every release of products. Corporate and commerce wants you to believe everything is more difficult and they present new hurdles for their products to chew on, but reality still is that its super cheap to game at a very playable resolution, at high FPS and high settings with nothing more than a lower midrange card. Let's face it, the game's no different at 1080p which we already consider 'High Definition'.

As I said... I'm gaming on 3440x1440 now and while I don't play the latest greatest right away at launch, I can still push comfortable FPS in most games with a measly 1080 - the high end of 4 years ago. If its an isometric game / not full 3D viewport, I can even keep 100+ FPS with no issues in most games. Its all about balancing out your wishlist with your budget and performance on tap. Ergo: Timing.

I'm attributing the whole fuss about scalpers and limited supply/high demand to the current day fashion of 'everyone is special' / 'Entitlement generation'. Everyone must have the latest greatest, because otherwise you don't count or you're a lesser person, or something. I'm not sure how people expect to keep up that rat race and keep a healthy financial situation. That only happens on social media (or 'Teevee').

And commerce is the primary enabler. They feed us with new carrots. The ultimate question is whether you're the horse chasing it, or just sit back and pick up the carrots when they're no longer the object in focus. Experience taught me its much easier to pick those up without sweating one bit - and its the exact same carrot, minus the early adopter woes. Games are no different. The frontline of technology is utter shite to consume, let it age.

FOMO is powerful, and peopel fall for it hook line and sinker.

I still play at 1200p, I hate narrow widescreens. My vega 64 can max out everything today at playable framerates with room to spare. I also hav eused a 4k screen before, and it isnt the end all be all of gaming. People act like you need the cray supercomputer to play tetris these days....

People are upset because of the current prices, maily because the 2000 series completely failed to improve price/perf at all, so we've been stalled for 4 years now. And people act like the prices are outrageous, forgetting 15 years ago where the 8800 ultra retailed for over $800 and AMD FX processors were pushing $1000.

MxPhenom 216It does not help the fact that wafers at nodes below 12/16nm are very expensive. It doesn't matter if that wafer is coming from Samsung or TSMC or any other foundry. It is not cheap. I actually work in this industry and get too see the cost for wafers when we tape out. Going from 12nm to 7nm increases per wafer cost 4x or higher depending on our die sizes. This cost directly translates to how much the chips will be sold to consumers for, and obviously market forces.

Understood and nice insight, but at the same time, there is still a business case behind all of these releases - and Nvidia / AMD still have double digit margins on it.

Comparison, I work for insurance business, and its not uncommon to find margins below 4% on the ENTIRE business. Not just parts of the portfolio... the whole heap - with all of its counterbalances in place.

Foundries and OEMs and chip engineers are not sad puppies and their cost/profit is not under pressure. Investments are high and slow to recoup, but that's not unique either.

medi01Given where 6800 is, AMD should have no problem rolling out well priced cards that wipe the floor with 3060Ti.

By comparing only to 6800 I would argue the opposite, but let see other rdna2 chips first. Sure if amd want's they could cut down navi21 more and take a hit on revenue side just to be perf/$ king, but I really doubt we will see any lower end variants of that chip.

Caring1You're living in the past, prices go up, deal with it.

there is a difference between artificially inflated prices and actual price gouging. Both are anti-consumer practices when you see the MSRP is damn near half of retail pricing. What I think see ( and IMO ) is the same scandal the memory trio did to everyone, artificially limiting supply to increase prices downhill.

Vayra86Understood and nice insight, but at the same time, there is still a business case behind all of these releases - and Nvidia / AMD still have double digit margins on it.

Comparison, I work for insurance business, and its not uncommon to find margins below 4% on the ENTIRE business. Not just parts of the portfolio... the whole heap - with all of its counterbalances in place.

Foundries and OEMs and chip engineers are not sad puppies and their cost/profit is not under pressure. Investments are high and slow to recoup, but that's not unique either.

How do you compare insurance to GPU business? Pretty much anyone can make up and sell an insurance policy. Only a handful of companies in the whole world can make GPUs. Only 2 companies can make high-end GPUs. In the whole world... Do you see any kind of shortage like that for insurance companies? Of course they can demand bigger margins...

PowerPCHow do you compare insurance to GPU business? Pretty much anyone can make up and sell an insurance policy. Only a handful of companies in the whole world can make GPUs. Only 2 companies can make high-end GPUs. In the whole world... Do you see any kind of shortage like that for insurance companies?

Of course they can demand bigger margins...

I am the only one that can sell you the Mackinaw Bridge too. Thats not a monopoly but that doesnt mean I can find someone else selling a bridge to collaborate with to increase profits ( bigger margins...) by selling insurance too.

DeathtoGnomesI am the only one that can sell you the Mackinaw Bridge too. Thats not a monopoly but that doesnt mean I can find someone else selling a bridge to collaborate with to increase profits ( bigger margins...) by selling insurance too.

WTF are you trying to say? What point are you trying to make with those convoluted sentences?

PowerPCWTF are you trying to say? What point are you trying to make with those convoluted sentences?

that is the million dollar question now, aint it?