Friday, November 23rd 2018
AMD Responds to Lack of Ryzen Mobile Driver Updates, Claims OEMs are the Issue
AMD's Ryzen Notebook lineup seems to be very important to company, at least when going by how often it gets mentioned in the AMD financial analyst calls. That's why it's even more surprising that the driver situation for these products has been nothing but terrible. Some Ryzen Raven Ridge based notebooks haven't seen a single driver update since their release over a year ago, which is much worse than on any other notebook platform.
Users complained about this on Reddit, and AMD responded through an official account that the issue is that "drivers are typically tailored for specific OEM platforms", and that "releasing generic APU graphics drivers across all AMD Ryzen mobile processor-based mobile systems could result in less-than-ideal user experiences". AMD also made it clear that they will be working with OEMs to increase the release frequency of Ryzen Mobile graphics drivers, targeting two releases per-year in 2019.
To me this explanation sounds like bs.
OEMs don't buy customized APU chips from AMD, they all use the same physical chip, with the same capabilities. All the "driver tailoring" usually is just a bunch of logos and adding or removing features, which quite often is actually harming the user experience. While of course other components in the laptop might differ (networking, storage, audio), and the connected displays might run various refresh rates and resolutions, it's not like such differences have any significant effect on traditional desktop PCs. Imagine having to wait for your monitor vendor to approve and release a graphics driver update.
This somehow reminds me of the Android ecosystem, where phone makers were responsible for validating and releasing updates to the Android OS. Of course they already had your money, so why would they invest time and resources into improving something that yields no return and can possibly lead to support calls for issues with the upgrade (they'll happily sell their new phone model though). Just like AMD is trying now, Google has then started forcing OEMs to increase the update frequency, which never really worked out. An alternative approach is what NVIDIA does. Besides the vendor-supplied drivers, they offer a generic notebook driver on their website, that is updated with every new driver release and that you are free to use, and that as far as I know, works with nearly no issues.
Many users had success using the "force install" option in Windows Device Manager, and report that they're actually having fewer issues with that approach than when using the official driver. I think we can all agree that business users and casuals don't need a lot of driver updates, but the tech enthusiasts are a significant driver of AMD's business and should be kept happy (and they'll beta test the drivers, too, for free). Enthusiasts will tell their relatives and friends (who might not even know of AMD as a tech brand), what products to buy or to avoid, which is very important for a company like AMD that wants to establish a foothold in the highly competitive laptop market.
AMD'S full statement below:
Source:
AMD on Reddit
Users complained about this on Reddit, and AMD responded through an official account that the issue is that "drivers are typically tailored for specific OEM platforms", and that "releasing generic APU graphics drivers across all AMD Ryzen mobile processor-based mobile systems could result in less-than-ideal user experiences". AMD also made it clear that they will be working with OEMs to increase the release frequency of Ryzen Mobile graphics drivers, targeting two releases per-year in 2019.
OEMs don't buy customized APU chips from AMD, they all use the same physical chip, with the same capabilities. All the "driver tailoring" usually is just a bunch of logos and adding or removing features, which quite often is actually harming the user experience. While of course other components in the laptop might differ (networking, storage, audio), and the connected displays might run various refresh rates and resolutions, it's not like such differences have any significant effect on traditional desktop PCs. Imagine having to wait for your monitor vendor to approve and release a graphics driver update.
This somehow reminds me of the Android ecosystem, where phone makers were responsible for validating and releasing updates to the Android OS. Of course they already had your money, so why would they invest time and resources into improving something that yields no return and can possibly lead to support calls for issues with the upgrade (they'll happily sell their new phone model though). Just like AMD is trying now, Google has then started forcing OEMs to increase the update frequency, which never really worked out. An alternative approach is what NVIDIA does. Besides the vendor-supplied drivers, they offer a generic notebook driver on their website, that is updated with every new driver release and that you are free to use, and that as far as I know, works with nearly no issues.
Many users had success using the "force install" option in Windows Device Manager, and report that they're actually having fewer issues with that approach than when using the official driver. I think we can all agree that business users and casuals don't need a lot of driver updates, but the tech enthusiasts are a significant driver of AMD's business and should be kept happy (and they'll beta test the drivers, too, for free). Enthusiasts will tell their relatives and friends (who might not even know of AMD as a tech brand), what products to buy or to avoid, which is very important for a company like AMD that wants to establish a foothold in the highly competitive laptop market.
AMD'S full statement below:
Feedback is a critical part of how AMD delivers great products. You have made it clear we have room for improvement on graphics driver updates for AMD Ryzen Mobile processor-based notebooks, both for APU-only platforms and discrete GPU notebook designs. It is important to understand that our graphics drivers are typically tailored for specific OEM platforms, so releasing generic APU graphics drivers across all AMD Ryzen mobile processor-based mobile systems could result in less-than-ideal user experiences. So what can AMD do?
We are committing to work with our OEMs to increase the release frequency of AMD Ryzen Mobile processor graphics drivers. Starting in 2019, we will target enabling OEMs to deliver a twice-annual update of graphics drivers specifically for all AMD Ryzen Mobile processor-based systems. Because the release is ultimately up to the OEMs, this may vary from platform to platform, but we want to put out a clear goal for us and our OEM partners. Those updates should be available for download on the respective OEM websites.
In addition, AMD will continue to evaluate ways in which we can offer validated graphics drivers for AMD Ryzen Mobile processor-based notebooks aligned to the latest AMD software updates, and will provide updates as soon as we are able. Thank you to the community of AMD users who voice their opinions on this issue.
130 Comments on AMD Responds to Lack of Ryzen Mobile Driver Updates, Claims OEMs are the Issue
For example, Nvidia has only stopped support for their 6 series (that's 6000 series) in 2015. They supported that for 11 years, right up to Win7.
No, hell freaking no. I have given RTG way too many chances. They are no longer the ATi i used to like.
99% of ppl with a laptop don't update or use anything, so you can guess why no one cares.
Whoever seriously believes any product gets more than 2-3 years of actual serious support is deluding themselves.
If anything, it's a dGPU designs that can be customized.
HD 2/3/4 series had driver support until 2013 (Windows 8.1).
HD 5/6 series had driver support until 2015 (Windows 10).
HD 7/8 (debuted 2012) and R# series have driver support through today. GCN definitely has everything NVIDIA ever released beat in terms of driver support.It's not OEMs modifying integrated GPUs, it's the driver that allows communication with the CPU in general. Something, somewhere, prohibits vendor agnostic drivers from successfully working; they need vendor specific drivers.
As ACE76 suggested, it could easily be power/heat related. The Vega component of these Ryzen APUs may be virtually the same as their big brethren meaning given the power and thermals, they could consume 100+ watts. Vendor specific drivers set a limit so the machine isn't damaged. Yes, you'd think that would be in firmware/BIOS and not in drivers so that probably isn't it unless there's a cost cutting component to it (would require non-volatile memory) so they handle it in driver instead.
Another thought is that all of the overclocking components of the driver are excluded by OEMs as part of their licensing/contractual agreement with AMD to prevent damaging hardware and creating warranty complaints.
TL;DR: HP says "jump" and AMD asks "how high?"
Edit: I'm getting the impression RTG doesn't even know what the problem is. At least not yet. The outcry over this has made it a priority.
Edit: It is isolated to HP Envy X360 as per the Redditor that reported it which, coincidently, was the first Ryzen Mobility product ever launched. It's a special cookie.
There are both clock, power and thermal limits that are not driver controlled. Of course the vendor is responsible for implementing the BIOS, but I'm quite sure it would be near impossible for them to mess that up so that a rogue driver could melt your APU - if so, that's a BIOS error, not a driver error.I think you're right about the latter. As for locking out overclocking, that ought to be trivial, as U-series chips don't generally allow OC'ing in the first place, so all that's needed for that is a check for "CPUID=2200U/2300U/2500U/2700U true/false" in Ryzen Master/Catalyst.
It might be that Envy's firmware requires HP-signed drivers to work. As pointed out previously in this thread, Lenovo has done that. Apple too.
LANand audio.If a mobile platform has provisions for dGPU, it usually boils down to following: Is there a GPU? Yes? Put a strap here, add this section to firmware.
Issues with display outputs? Also gone on modern platforms. As far as all the stuff that's been at my workshop, all new laptops have eDP output to LCD as default and use iGPU as a primary output device, and all have HPD (hot plug detect) enabled regardless of whether it's AMD or Intel. HPD is also wired directly to SoC, so as data lines for I/O.
Structurally all older laptop platforms had a structure of the christmas tree, with CPU, NB, SB (or CPU, PCH and SuperI/O) as a trunk. Now it's a soviet star with SoC at the center. The only modifications you can make, is route your PCB trace to the left, or to the right (figuratively speaking). All issues usually are a result of OEMs going out of spec and cutting corners.
If AMD made a generic driver, the only issue might be a TDP lock, but I believe it should be set in UEFI firmware and not relate on driver alone to do the "limiting". Other than that there is absolutely no reason why AMD hasn't released one already. Though, I have a suspicion that they want OEMs to do the bidding, cause if something goes wrong - they'll be the ones to blame.
Worse experience with AMD driver was back with AMD RIchland notebook that support AMD Dual Graphics/Crossfire. (AMD A10-5750M with Radeon 8670M)
The OEM AMD Driver was so bad that often crash or had issues especially when Dual Graphics/Crossfire was turned on.
Tried to feedback or request for updated driver from the manufacturer, they quote that was the only available driver for that product.
Even tried to reach out to AMD about this issue, they also mention I should contact the manufacturer or try generic driver from AMD.
However since it support Dual Graphics/Crossfire, generic driver can't even be installed.
After this NB died, now I switch to Intel than getting another AMD NB fear of disappointment especially the driver.
My point is being the longest AMD mobile user, manufacturer don't always release new or updated driver.
Even if you try to feedback or request for new driver, usually they will quote that is the only available or best driver for that product.
With Windows 10, the annoying thing is it tend to update driver that it deem outdated which may cause problem or worse stability issue.
It raises a good question if there is issue or somehow when Windows 10 deem the driver that is outdated.
Can user install generic driver from AMD website? Or how can user obtain latest driver especially when there is issue?
Just a suggestion, maybe AMD can consider providing latest driver that is certified for use with certain notebook as a first step on AMD support site. (Maybe a unified site for mobile users)
Whether or not manufacturer will release their own driver or not at least it's up to them but at least there is a updated driver for use while waiting.
As well as gather feedback and issues from AMD notebook users on what are the issues so there will be fixes and etc.
With Windows 10, if possible there should be driver update every three months or so thus need not to be very frequent unless there is a major issue like OS crash and etc.
If AMD want to push in mobile segment especially mobile gaming, specifications is one thing while driver is the second key component.