So I take it this beta release doesn't support the MSI gaming app? Because after a clean install of the new drivers I'm getting this error:
For reference purposes this rig is running the MSI Gaming X 8GB RX580 GPU and its nerve center is a Phenom II X6 Thuban CPU.



EDIT: I also having trouble with MSI afterburner, all the OC features are locked and its not even reading the video card properly:



Im thinking it may be time for a rollback due to these issues...

storm-chaserSo I take it this beta release doesn't support the MSI gaming app? Because after a clean install of the new drivers I'm getting this error:
For reference purposes this rig is running the MSI Gaming X 8GB RX580 GPU and its nerve center is a Phenom II X6 Thuban CPU.



EDIT: I also having trouble with MSI afterburner, all the OC features are locked and its not even reading the video card properly:



Im thinking it may be time for a rollback due to these issues...

It is not AMD problem. It is MSI Afterburner problem. Complain in MSI Afterburner forum.

IceShroomIt is not AMD problem. It is MSI Afterburner problem. Complain in MSI Afterburner forum.

Don't jump to conclusions, I'm not complaining, I'm simply pointing out the issues I've discovered so far... and as I'm sure you know, beta versions have a tendency to be buggy so this kind of stuff is the norm. And make no mistake, this is definitely an AMD driver problem. The reason I say that is because MSI afterburner worked just fine with the previous stable release of the Adrenalin drivers. Same goes for the MSI gaming app. Now that I have rolled back to the "stable" build all functionality has been restored.

And what about the gaming app? Is there someone else you can pin this on other than AMD?

storm-chaserDon't jump to conclusions, I'm not complaining, I'm simply pointing out the issues I've discovered so far... and as I'm sure you know, beta versions have a tendency to be buggy so this kind of stuff is the norm. And make no mistake, this is definitely an AMD driver problem. The reason I say that is because MSI afterburner worked just fine with the previous stable release of the Adrenalin drivers. Same goes for the MSI gaming app. Now that I have rolled back to the "stable" build all functionality has been restored.

And what about the gaming app? Is there someone else you can pin this on other than AMD?

That is the thing, AMD has no obligation to ensure that third party tweaking / overclocking apps works on their drivers.
It is always up to MSI to support the newer AMD drivers not the other way around.

As for the gaming app, it says on the tin: "MSI Gaming App". Not AMD gaming app.
It is MSI's way of applying overclocked settings on top of their factory vbios settings.
It is MSI choice to do it via software instead of dual bios like some other cards where they have an OC bios and a power saving / quiet bios.
So the gaming app not working is 100% on MSI. It was MSI that sold you the Gaming App as a feature not AMD.

Edit:
TLDR, MSI stuff doesn't work, complain to MSI. If AMD Wattman doesn't work, complain to AMD.
Also there is a Beta 2 version of MSI Afterburner 4.6.2, try and see if that works.

ZubasaThat is the thing, AMD has no obligation to ensure that third party tweaking / overclocking apps works on their drivers.
It is always up to MSI to support the newer AMD drivers not the other way around.

As for the gaming app, it says on the tin: "MSI Gaming App".
Not AMD gaming app. It is MSI's way of applying overclocked settings on top of their factory settings.

While it is true that AMD is under no obligation to ensure 3rd party apps work with their drivers, you can only make that claim in reference to a stable driver release. With a beta release, there is to much of a grey area and problems like this could very easily be chalked up to the AMD side.

Remember, this is a beta driver and likely not intended to have full functionality and may also include glitches, compatibility issues and a myriad of other problems . Its very possible that AMD intentionally left out some features or they are still bugged in some regard, and that's why we broke functionality with the MSI apps. So its feasible to believe that this has the potential to be AMD related. I have a hunch that MSI wont have to do any work on their end to sync with the future, stable version of these drivers.

IceShroomIt is not AMD problem. It is MSI Afterburner problem. Complain in MSI Afterburner forum.

No, this is a driver issue. It could be the fact that it’s a beta driver, and i always run WHQL drivers if possible, so perhaps try going back to 19.5.2 and see if problem is resolved? If you had all functionality working with a later driver then try that

ZubasaThat is the thing, AMD has no obligation to ensure that third party tweaking / overclocking apps works on their drivers.
It is always up to MSI to support the newer AMD drivers not the other way around.

As for the gaming app, it says on the tin: "MSI Gaming App". Not AMD gaming app.
It is MSI's way of applying overclocked settings on top of their factory vbios settings.
It is MSI choice to do it via software instead of dual bios like some other cards where they have an OC bios and a power saving / quiet bios.
So the gaming app not working is 100% on MSI. It was MSI that sold you the Gaming App as a feature not AMD.

Edit:
TLDR, MSI stuff doesn't work, complain to MSI. If AMD Wattman doesn't work, complain to AMD.
Also there is a Beta 2 version of MSI Afterburner 4.6.2, try and see if that works.

Many times when I try to do extreme overclocking on my Maximus motherboard with an intel cpu, I don’t get all the voltages, without the ME driver. But the ME driver is from intel and by your logic it is Asus’s fault for not providing stable voltage monitoring, however in reality it’s the ME driver that needs to be installed. Likewise, the amd driver gives functions that the gaming app references to, therefore it’s most likely the driver’s fault and not the app. Another way to verify is if rolling back to previous driver fixes the gaming app crash, then it is 100% the driver’s fault.

Yes, I rolled back to 19.5.2: all compatibility problems have been resolved, both MSI programs are working properly again.

I agree with @Berfs1 this definitely looks like an AMD beta driver related issue. (see explanation above)

The problem is that AMD changed the PowerTune configuration again. They don't provide an API for their power managament, so the 3rd party apps only able to ensure compatibility, if the devs reverse engineer the driver, and change their softwares accordingly. This is an ongoing thing for years, and mostly come up when AMD do a bigger jump on the version, like now: from 19.20 to 19.30. The 19.5.2 is only works because it is compiled from the 19.20 batch.

The alternate option is to use a 3rd party program that configured to call Wattman functions. That will works always, because these apps are basically alternate UIs for Wattman.

Berfs1Many times when I try to do extreme overclocking on my Maximus motherboard with an intel cpu, I don’t get all the voltages, without the ME driver. But the ME driver is from intel and by your logic it is Asus’s fault for not providing stable voltage monitoring, however in reality it’s the ME driver that needs to be installed. Likewise, the amd driver gives functions that the gaming app references to, therefore it’s most likely the driver’s fault and not the app. Another way to verify is if rolling back to previous driver fixes the gaming app crash, then it is 100% the driver’s fault.

In this case it technically is your fault for not installing the ME driver.
I understand what you are saying, but it really isn't 100% the driver's fault in your example.

JoeboyThe problem is that AMD changed the PowerTune configuration again. They don't provide an API for their power managament, so the 3rd party apps only able to ensure compatibility, if the devs reverse engineer the driver, and change their softwares accordingly. This is an ongoing thing for years, and mostly come up when AMD do a bigger jump on the version, like now: from 19.20 to 19.30. The 19.5.2 is only works because it is compiled from the 19.20 batch.

The alternate option is to use a 3rd party program that configured to call Wattman functions. That will works always, because these apps are basically alternate UIs for Wattman.

This is what I am suspecting.
The change might be intentional.

@W1zzard @btarunr will u be benchmarking this game ?

storm-chaserYes, I rolled back to 19.5.2: all compatibility problems have been resolved, both MSI programs are working properly again.

I agree with @Berfs1 this definitely looks like an AMD beta driver related issue. (see explanation above)

Report the findings to MSI.

SystemMechanic@W1zzard @btarunr will u be benchmarking this game ?

Wolfenstein? Yeah test scene found yday evening, now benching

Berfs1No, this is a driver issue. It could be the fact that it’s a beta driver, and i always run WHQL drivers if possible, so perhaps try going back to 19.5.2 and see if problem is resolved? If you had all functionality working with a later driver then try that


Many times when I try to do extreme overclocking on my Maximus motherboard with an intel cpu, I don’t get all the voltages, without the ME driver. But the ME driver is from intel and by your logic it is Asus’s fault for not providing stable voltage monitoring, however in reality it’s the ME driver that needs to be installed. Likewise, the amd driver gives functions that the gaming app references to, therefore it’s most likely the driver’s fault and not the app. Another way to verify is if rolling back to previous driver fixes the gaming app crash, then it is 100% the driver’s fault.

Not an AMD "Beta drivers" problem. They (AMD) are not obliged to guarantee backward compatibility with the PowerPlay Tables (which doesn't make sense if you want to introduce some new stuff).
Stop blaming AMD for everything when it's clearly not their problem. Wattman works? So no issue on the AMD side.

Report to MSI / report to Unwinder ->
forums.guru3d.com/forums/msi-afterburner-overclock-application-discussion.55/

Berfs1No, this is a driver issue. It could be the fact that it’s a beta driver, and i always run WHQL drivers if possible, so perhaps try going back to 19.5.2 and see if problem is resolved? If you had all functionality working with a later driver then try that


Many times when I try to do extreme overclocking on my Maximus motherboard with an intel cpu, I don’t get all the voltages, without the ME driver. But the ME driver is from intel and by your logic it is Asus’s fault for not providing stable voltage monitoring, however in reality it’s the ME driver that needs to be installed. Likewise, the amd driver gives functions that the gaming app references to, therefore it’s most likely the driver’s fault and not the app. Another way to verify is if rolling back to previous driver fixes the gaming app crash, then it is 100% the driver’s fault.

Afterburner is problem here, Afterburner is not implementing AMD monitoring API properly. AMD Watrman working and tool based on Wattman, so its Afterburner problem.
If Microsoft releases new API and software developer not using it, its developers problem not Microsoft's. Samehere with with Afterburner.
One side note: Afterburner has no problem supporting Nvidia features, but has problem with AMD features. :rolleyes:

IceShroomAfterburner is problem here, Afterburner is not implementing AMD monitoring API properly. AMD Watrman working and tool based on Wattman, so its Afterburner problem.
If Microsoft releases new API and software developer not using it, its developers problem not Microsoft's. Samehere with with Afterburner.
One side note: Afterburner has no problem supporting Nvidia features, but has problem with AMD features. :rolleyes:

Sure, it is traditional Afterburner "not implementing AMD monitoring API properly", it is always a problem. You obviously know a lot about proper implementation, right? And now what about teaching stupid AB developer to do it properly , for example demonstrate some application developed by you and "impelemnting monitoring propertly" for all OSes and hardware, on all versions of Overdrive?
Somehow NVIDIA manage to invest a lot into _backward_compatibility_ (if it means something for you) and tools created in GTX 200 era STILL work. And on opposing side everything API related broken by AMD is always Afterburer/Trixx etc issue. Seriously, due to such fanboys who always redirect this headache to third party devs, many of us quit the scene.

AlexUnwinderSure, it is traditional Afterburner "not implementing AMD monitoring API properly", it is always a problem. You obviously know a lot about proper implementation, right? And now what about teaching stupid AB developer to do it properly , for example demonstrate some application developed by you and "impelemnting monitoring propertly" for all OSes and hardware, on all versions of Overdrive?
Somehow NVIDIA manage to invest a lot into _backward_compatibility_ (if it means something for you) and tools created in GTX 200 era STILL work. And on opposing side everything API related broken by AMD is always Afterburer/Trixx etc issue. Seriously, due to such fanboys who always redirect this headache to third party devs, many of us quit the scene.

There is a trend, if software dosen't implement AMD's API it AMD to blame, not the software.
I am saying it again it Afterburn's problem not AMD. GPU-Z recently also has problem with AMD GPU. Maybe cause those developer don't test their app on AMD GPU.

IceShroomWell Nvidia's architecture hasn't changed much from Fermi era, so they have not that much problem.

That's not true. NVIDIA introduced at least 4 different clock control and monitoring API versions since "Fermi" era, and each time the previous API implementation was NOT abandoned, it was left in driver for backward compatibility with existing applications. Even the oldest APIs, which they used in that era for Fermi STILL works for the previous compatible generations of hardware and display drivers. That's exactly what is called backward compatibility, that's what is allowing the applications created YEARS ago to work with no problems.
What AMD do is constantly re-inventing the wheel, with new hardware they simply breaking existing API and in favor of newer one, try to port old hardware implementations to it and introduce problems this way, it happend at least twice during the last year.

I installed this on my Vega FE, MSI afterburner works fine...

Radeon Overlay may experience flickering in Vulkan API games

Um what happens if it's not just Vulcan API based games but D3D aswell and OpenGL too in both FO4 and Skyrim SE it just flashes on and off screen all the time which is bloody annoying

PrEziNot an AMD "Beta drivers" problem. They (AMD) are not obliged to guarantee backward compatibility with the PowerPlay Tables (which doesn't make sense if you want to introduce some new stuff).
Stop blaming AMD for everything when it's clearly not their problem. Wattman works? So no issue on the AMD side.

Report to MSI / report to Unwinder ->
forums.guru3d.com/forums/msi-afterburner-overclock-application-discussion.55/

Wattman is upgraded when the driver is upgraded. AMD literally updates their entire control pane per update. You don’t get legacy features with the new driver, you get the most up to date control panel including wattman. Also, wattman uses different functions to overclock, while afterburner uses single variable frequencies. Let’s say amd changed how power functions are called in the bios. That would therefore be amd’s problem, and not msi’s. I also mentioned earlier, check if the previous driver worked. If it did, and upgrading the driver caused he problem, it is the driver that is the problem, and not the application. In the workstation environment, that driver would be considered unstable and unreliable, and, there are workstation users who can be affected by similar situations. I have absolutely no idea where your logic is to blame msi for their afterburner application. The afterburner app was created earlier, and worked prior to the driver update. That should make sense, right? If AFTER the update, the app stops working, what needs to be done is revert the driver, and if it works again, it is the driver at fault. Doesn’t matter if there were optimizations for AMD’s software, it matters if it breaks other applications. An example, is Destiny 2 at fault for not working with Ryzen 3000? Under your logic, it would be Destiny 2, and not AMD’s fault. However, clearly, a bunch of people have seen this issue, and they finally found the fix in the AGESA code, and Destiny 2 support is now “working” again (in quotations because it is in beta).

IceShroomThere is a trend, if software dosen't implement AMD's API it AMD to blame, not the software.
I am saying it again it Afterburn's problem not AMD. GPU-Z recently also has problem with AMD GPU. Maybe cause those developer don't test their app on AMD GPU.

It’s funny how no one liked your reply. Maybe because you are wrong in this situation. In fact, another user actually stated the opposite, that AMD has been changing the power functions and calls multiple times. So yes. It is AMD’s fault that afterburner failed.

One more thing, if y’all intend to overclock, you technically void warranty. And msi afterburner literally gives you a warning if you extend past official limits. So it would “technically be your fault” under some people’s logic. Even though in reality it’s AMD that changed how the power calls work in the new update.

Berfs1Wattman is upgraded when the driver is upgraded. AMD literally updates their entire control pane per update. You don’t get legacy features with the new driver, you get the most up to date control panel including wattman. Also, wattman uses different functions to overclock, while afterburner uses single variable frequencies. Let’s say amd changed how power functions are called in the bios. That would therefore be amd’s problem, and not msi’s. I also mentioned earlier, check if the previous driver worked. If it did, and upgrading the driver caused he problem, it is the driver that is the problem, and not the application. In the workstation environment, that driver would be considered unstable and unreliable, and, there are workstation users who can be affected by similar situations. I have absolutely no idea where your logic is to blame msi for their afterburner application. The afterburner app was created earlier, and worked prior to the driver update. That should make sense, right? If AFTER the update, the app stops working, what needs to be done is revert the driver, and if it works again, it is the driver at fault. Doesn’t matter if there were optimizations for AMD’s software, it matters if it breaks other applications. An example, is Destiny 2 at fault for not working with Ryzen 3000? Under your logic, it would be Destiny 2, and not AMD’s fault. However, clearly, a bunch of people have seen this issue, and they finally found the fix in the AGESA code, and Destiny 2 support is now “working” again (in quotations because it is in beta).


It’s funny how no one liked your reply. Maybe because you are wrong in this situation. In fact, another user actually stated the opposite, that AMD has been changing the power functions and calls multiple times. So yes. It is AMD’s fault that afterburner failed.

One more thing, if y’all intend to overclock, you technically void warranty. And msi afterburner literally gives you a warning if you extend past official limits. So it would “technically be your fault” under some people’s logic. Even though in reality it’s AMD that changed how the power calls work in the new update.

It is really funny to read your tyrrade, mentioning workstations and such "important" words, yet you know nothing (or very little) about the culprit why Afterburner and other OC Tools have problems.
Let me tell you one thing :
All of those "OC tools" are using undocumented/not officially supported API extensions (or connecting to hardware through dirty-hacks) and AMD is not obliged to :
a)test if such undocumented/unsupported API extensions work,
b)warranty any backward compatibility for undocummented/unsupported API extensions
c)shouldn't care if these are dirty-hacks to get to some low-level hardware access (actually these might be security risks and I personally would close such loopholes).
d)RDRAND problem (Destiny2 - your example, however failed to mention that nearly all Linux distros have bigger problems) has nothing to do with drivers, rather it has something to do with the entropy generation returning invalid information (-1 instead of 1). Software issue? Rather not. I would hint to a hardware issue, that fortunately can be fixed with AGESA / microcode update.
The chipset drivers are only a quick-patch and not a real solution to the problem (and solves only some minor problems under Windows environment).
e)you would know it all if you would follow my advice and actually READ a few topics in the Afterburner thread

BTW --- it is funny to see that your "quality metrics" is the amount of likes under a post... LoL.
Now get back to school and stop trolling, that all (including Earthquakes) is AMD's fault.

There truth on both sides of the coin here. Regardless of who's to blame, I think we can all draw some basic conclusions:

1) AMD's new beta 19.7.5 driver broke compatibility with MSI Afterburner and the MSI gaming app. AMD is [technically] at fault for causing this problem, but they are not [necessarily] responsible for resolution. That responsibility falls to the 3rd party vendor, MSI.
2) This is a broken API issue (as joeboy pointed out) and may or may not have been intentional... Here is my question: Do you think AMD did this on purpose in an effort to get people to use their own GPU management software known as Wattman? For example, Microsoft Edge doesn't allow you to set a specific page when you open a new tab, and this is an obvious effort to get people to stay with the bing search engine. The browser wars are real, and I'm thinking maybe we have the same thing going on between AMD and competing 3rd party vendors?

*edit* please note: this discussion only pertains to my specific hardware/software configuration, that being an MSI RX 580 Gaming X 8GB GPU with Windows 10 x64 release 1809 and MSI Afterburner.

storm-chaserThere truth on both sides of the coin here. Regardless of who's to blame, I think we can all draw some basic conclusions:

1) AMD's new beta 19.7.5 driver broke compatibility with MSI Afterburner and the MSI gaming app. AMD is [technically] at fault for causing this problem, but they are not [necessarily] responsible for resolution. That responsibility falls to the 3rd party vendor, MSI.
2) This is a broken API issue (as joeboy pointed out) and may or may not have been intentional... Here is my question: Do you think AMD did this on purpose in an effort to get people to use their own GPU management software known as Wattman? For example, Microsoft Edge doesn't allow you to set a specific page when you open a new tab, and this is an obvious effort to get people to stay with the bing search engine. The browser wars are real, and I'm thinking maybe we have the same thing going on between AMD and competing 3rd party vendors?

*edit* please note: this discussion only pertains to my specific hardware/software configuration, that being an MSI RX 580 Gaming X 8GB GPU with Windows 10 x64 release 1809 and MSI Afterburner.

Hi,
I don't think this is done on purpose - happened at least a few times in the past and it was nearly 99% the case where a "compatibility" fix was needed on the 3rd party side.
Yeah, browser wars are real but in this case I don't think AMD has any business to break some things on purpose ;-)

No major security fixes??
I'm so disappointed, Lisa....

PrEziIt is really funny to read your tyrrade, mentioning workstations and such "important" words, yet you know nothing (or very little) about the culprit why Afterburner and other OC Tools have problems.
Let me tell you one thing :
All of those "OC tools" are using undocumented/not officially supported API extensions (or connecting to hardware through dirty-hacks) and AMD is not obliged to :
a)test if such undocumented/unsupported API extensions work,
b)warranty any backward compatibility for undocummented/unsupported API extensions
c)shouldn't care if these are dirty-hacks to get to some low-level hardware access (actually these might be security risks and I personally would close such loopholes).
d)RDRAND problem (Destiny2 - your example, however failed to mention that nearly all Linux distros have bigger problems) has nothing to do with drivers, rather it has something to do with the entropy generation returning invalid information (-1 instead of 1). Software issue? Rather not. I would hint to a hardware issue, that fortunately can be fixed with AGESA / microcode update.
The chipset drivers are only a quick-patch and not a real solution to the problem (and solves only some minor problems under Windows environment).
e)you would know it all if you would follow my advice and actually READ a few topics in the Afterburner thread

BTW --- it is funny to see that your "quality metrics" is the amount of likes under a post... LoL.
Now get back to school and stop trolling, that all (including Earthquakes) is AMD's fault.

There’s a difference with saying “AMD is at fault and has to fix this” and saying “The application stopped working because AMD changed the code”. Also, I am not denying that MSI and other oc tools are using non-official APIs for overclocking, since neither intel, nvidia, or amd would ever “support” overclocking past their limits. All I was saying is, BECAUSE AMD changed the functions, it’s not necessarily right to blame MSI for the failure.

storm-chaserThere truth on both sides of the coin here. Regardless of who's to blame, I think we can all draw some basic conclusions:

1) AMD's new beta 19.7.5 driver broke compatibility with MSI Afterburner and the MSI gaming app. AMD is [technically] at fault for causing this problem, but they are not [necessarily] responsible for resolution. That responsibility falls to the 3rd party vendor, MSI.
2) This is a broken API issue (as joeboy pointed out) and may or may not have been intentional... Here is my question: Do you think AMD did this on purpose in an effort to get people to use their own GPU management software known as Wattman? For example, Microsoft Edge doesn't allow you to set a specific page when you open a new tab, and this is an obvious effort to get people to stay with the bing search engine. The browser wars are real, and I'm thinking maybe we have the same thing going on between AMD and competing 3rd party vendors?

*edit* please note: this discussion only pertains to my specific hardware/software configuration, that being an MSI RX 580 Gaming X 8GB GPU with Windows 10 x64 release 1809 and MSI Afterburner.

AMD probably did this to optimize their GPUs when under stock operation, as in, they probably wanted to optimize the voltages and frequency curves for the GPUs in such a way that is helpful for the average consumer, but not for anyone that overclocks using 3rd party software.