Monday, October 17th 2022

AMD Cuts Down Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" Production As Demand Drops Like a Rock
AMD reportedly scaled down production of its Ryzen 7000 series desktop processors in response to bleak demand across the PC hardware industry. Wccftech claims to have read an internal company document calling for reduced supply to the channel as market response to the Ryzen 7000-series is weak. This comes hot on the heels of AMD revising its Q3-2022 forecast, trimming its guidance by a $1 billion drop in revenue, citing weak demand in the PC market. However, we are seeing no deviation from the launch pricing for Ryzen 7000-series SKUs or compatible Socket AM5 motherboards. The platform went on sale from late September, on the same day that Intel announced its competing 13th Gen Core "Raptor Lake" processors. The new Intel chips are expected to start selling from a little later this month.
Unlike 13th Gen Core processors, Ryzen 7000 series processors appear to be a victim of the platform—notwithstanding the high pricing of the processors, which start at $299 for the 6-core 7600X, buyers lack access to affordable motherboards, and have to contend with expensive DDR5 memory. Pricing of cheaper LGA1700 motherboards based on entry-level H610 and B660 chipsets with cost-effective DDR4 memory support have added depth to consumer choice, besides Intel's 12th Gen range starting from under $150.
Source:
Wccftech
Unlike 13th Gen Core processors, Ryzen 7000 series processors appear to be a victim of the platform—notwithstanding the high pricing of the processors, which start at $299 for the 6-core 7600X, buyers lack access to affordable motherboards, and have to contend with expensive DDR5 memory. Pricing of cheaper LGA1700 motherboards based on entry-level H610 and B660 chipsets with cost-effective DDR4 memory support have added depth to consumer choice, besides Intel's 12th Gen range starting from under $150.
242 Comments on AMD Cuts Down Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" Production As Demand Drops Like a Rock
Great job you guys thoroughly checked through. Sigh even the PCIE 5 not entirely actual lol,
AMD want to know why customers aren't buying AM5 boards which drive AM5 CPU sales, and the simple answer is that the boards are too expensive.
As a customer I don't give a flying f*ck about the internal market bureacracy, I buy based on whether the product is good value or not - and that's a stance that's likely shared by an overwhelming majority of AMD's customers. Nobody likes overpaying.
Usually people buy whatever is best for their use case (or the one they think they will be doing) within the budget they decide to allocate to it.
It's that simple. Just buy whatever is best for your usage which falls within your budget. People don't really care about AMD or Intel, just as much as AMD or Intel don't care about people.
AMD either doesn't have the budget or is willing to offer such a program for some other reason, so you end up paying more in the end.
That said, there's something else going on right now, as the prices are a lot higher than they were supposed to be, as I've pointed out several times already. Having taken a closer look, the board makers added more margin than I was initially told and some SKUs are over 30% more expensive than initially planned.
And this is sales report from Mindfactory -
If you want more premium platform, wait until prices decrease on AM5.
Or go Intel on their latest platform that will not be upgradable out of the box.
:p
If you want PCIE 5.0 at a more reasonable price get last gen z670 if you're fine with a Intel system meanwhile AMD side is just between a rock and hard spot outside of AM4, but at least 5800X3D performs well and is a reasonable alternative. I don't know how well 5800X3D will appear on value in relation to a 13600K however especially paired with a DDR4 board where it's mostly just a similar cost comparison across each. How close a striking distance does Raptor Lake's entry level unlocked chip get and what is performance like at the same power levels between each plus how wide is the MT gap looking across varied applications? Those are all going to be important to people consider both priced similarly which is a lot of people probably. AMD does have a perk in it's favor though if someone is already on AM4 socket they might simply upgrade the CPU which reduces the cost factor a nice bit.
I think what I touched upon is a lot of the questions people are going to be asking and looking at considering a upgrade between now and whatever arrives later that should have better price to value tangibles that aren't here yet for PCIE 5.0 and DDR5 systems in the early infancy of both options. I see the 5800XD and 13600K as a possible slugfest over mind share in the coming days, weeks, and months.
On B650, you get x16 Gen4 slot, whereas Intel's is Gen3. WiFi is 6E, Intel's is 6. There are three more USB 10 Gbps and one more 5 Gbps ports on B650. Memory support is slightly higher on B650. You can say it's minor difference, but each one of those features adds to the cost and will matter for individual users, depending what people look for.
Plus, the elephant in the room is no upgrades on Intel's platform. You buy it once for one gen CPU and that's it. On B650, part of premium is ability to slot in Zen5 CPU without having to buy a new system, which is a huge advantage. Small advantages in features and big advantage in upgradability cost ~€65 more.
I bet Mortar brings similar situation. I'd go for B650. Pay a bit more now, big save later by buying only a CPU. No brainer.
CPU-wise, Intel is a better option with 13600K than 7600X/7700X, if you really need it for multi-threaded workloads for several years. However, i5 is unlikely to be better in gaming against both AMD's CPUs.
So, yes, it all depends on what is it that you want to save on now or in future, and which features you need to use. If you want less power, wait for desktop APU next year. It will be either 65W (6-core) or 95W (8-core), or both on different SKUs. Oh man! Those gigantic screenshots are killing us and take entire monitor real estate! Please, drag diagonally to minimize before posting. True that. It's a longevity and early launch premium.
Also, "future proofing" doesn't exist in the PC world. Even the stuff you can buy today will be "outdated" in 6 months. That's the way it's always been.
Only PCIe 4X is 3.0 for Intel's (but M.2 is still PCIe 4.0 on Intel so you're covered for SSD though)
Regarding WiFi both Mortars are 6E.
Regarding USB both Mortars have 1x USB-C 3.2 (20Gb/s) and 3x USB-A 3.1 (10Gb/s).
The difference is that except the above AMD's Mortar has 4x USB-A 3.0 (5Gb/s) while Intel's rest USB-A are version 2.0.
And yes the above differences are insignificant and should have cost 10€ more or whatever not 70€.
I really don't know why you feel that you need to defend and justify AMD's Motherboard pricing strategy to price them nearly 70€ above the competition.
Instead you should be asking for lower pricing in order the AM5 platform to be more accessible to all AMD supporters and anyway we still haven't seen the promised $125 B650s!
Maybe is no brainer for you but for a large portion of users that like AM4 it seems it isn't.
i5 12600K/KF already is slightly faster than 7600X in 1080p and being only 1.6% slower than 7700X chances are that 13600K/KF will be faster...
And regarding 7700X Intel also have i7 13700KF anyway!
B650 Pro board is more advanced and promising because:
- B650 has second PCIe slot at Gen4 x4, so twice bandwidth (64 Gbps) for additional AIC storage of other peripheral; B660 has Gen3 x4
- B650 Pro has internal USB 10 Gbps for front I/O, B660 has 5 Gbps
- B650 supports NVMe and SATA storage RAID, B660 supports only SATA RAID
- B650 has WiFi 6E, B660 is WiFi 6
- B650 has three more USB 10 Gbps and one more 5 Gbps ports on B650
- B650 has memory support is slightly higher on B650
- B650 has Flash BIOS button , B660 does not (is it an important feature!)
- B650 supports one additional 4-pin fan connector
- B650 comes with less bloatware and AIDA64 Extreme, B660 does not
- B650 had more elabore AM5 1718 socket, with more pins
- B650 board has additional brackets for CPU cooler, B660 does not
- B650 has larger chipset heatsink
- B650 has larger and more spacious VRM heatsink covering rear I/O, B660 has a miserable VRM heatsink
- B650 is future-proof for Zen5 simple CPU, B660 is end-of-life product, aka DOA
So, B650 overall has 14 more advanced features than B660 board. Do you still expect B650 Pro to cost the same as B660? Nonsense. The below differences are not insignificant and do not cost €10 more. I hope the list helps you appreciate those differences.
Regarding both Mortar boards, differences are significant enough to explain different price.
- B650 memory support is slightly higher on B650
- B660 second slot is Gen3 x4, on B650 it is Gen4 x4, so twice bandwidth
- B650 has onboard graphics on DP port is 4K/60 on B660, and DP port on B650 supports 8K/60
- B650 has four USB 5 ports at rear I/O on B650, and four USB 2.0 on B660
- B650 has Flash BIOS button , B660 does not (is it an important feature!)
- B650 has a better audio chip ALC4080 with front supprt for high bit audio, B660 has ALC1220
- B650 supports one additional 4-pin fan connector
- B650 comes with less bloatware and AIDA64 Extreme, B660 does not
- B650 comes with one more SATA cable
- B650 comes with WiFi antenna, B660 does not
- B650 had more elabore AM5 1718 socket, with more pins
- B650 board has additional brackets for CPU cooler, B660 does not
- B650 board has more robust and longer NVMe drive heatsink
- B650 is future-proof for Zen5 simple CPU, B660 is end-of-life product, aka DOA
So, B650 overall has 14 more advanced features than B660 board. Do you still you expect B650 Mortar to cost the same as B660? Another nonsense. AMD does not tell vendors how much to charge for boards. AMD can only reduce the price of Prom21 chipset. I do not defend or justify anything. I am simply showing you and others here the differences, which can explain why MSI values B650 boards more. There was simply more labour hours, care, software, components, material and technologies invested into design of B650 boards. All of that does not cost €10.
If you want B650 to cost the same as Intel's B660, then it is B660 that also needs to be cheaper for another €60-70, because B660 is a worse board of the two, especially that VRM heatsink. It's a joke. Whatever the price, those two boards cannot cost the same.
Don't get me wrong. Both boards are equally overpriced because they are new. Prices will have to go down soon, for Black Firday, Xmas, and onwards, but B650 boards are definitively more advanced and priced accordingly. No. 12600K is on average 10% slower in 1080p gaming than 7600X. Your graph comes from a single review. The graph below comes from 3D Centre in Germany, one of the most advanced tech analysis team in the world, who gather data from all individual reviews at launch, and later on, to re-validate results.
Chances are that 13600K will neither be faster in gaming than 7600X nor 7700X. It will be faster in productivity workloads than both Ryzen CPUs.
13700K compares with 7900X and 13900K compares with 7950X. Chances are that 13700K will not be faster in gaming than 7700X either.
Happy digesting of the information above. You have a lot to read, digest and learn. Welcome to a good place for that. I have learnt a lot.
www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813145373
GIGABYTE B660 AORUS MASTER DDR4 $164.99
www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B660-AORUS-MASTER-DDR4-rev-10#kf
www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1687328-REG/msi_mag_b660m_mortar_wifi.html
MSI MAG B660M MORTAR WIFI DDR5 $179.99
www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-B660M-MORTAR-WIFI
www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1687327-REG/msi_mag_b660_tomahawk_wifi.html/
MSI MAG B660 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4 $189.99
www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-B660-TOMAHAWK-WIFI-DDR4
www.scan.co.uk/products/asus-rog-strix-b660-a-gaming-wifi-d4-intel-b660-s-1700-ddr4-pcie-50-sata3-3x-m2-25gbe-ax-wifi-atx
ASUS ROG STRIX B660-A GAMING WIFI D4 £199.99
rog.asus.com/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-b660-a-gaming-wifi-d4-model/
www.scan.co.uk/products/asus-tuf-gaming-b660-plus-wifi-d4-intel-b660-s-1700-ddr4-pcie-50-sata3-3x-m2-25gbe-wifi6
ASUS TUF GAMING B660-PLUS WIFI D4 £169.98
www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-GAMING-B660-PLUS-WIFI-D4/
Even if passive VRM cooling is or is not miserable on any given board, there is still, crucially, VRM robustness itself to be tested. Steve from HUB found in his large review of dozens of motherboards that several boards could not deliver enough power to CPU, despite stating on package that they support highest SKUs. So, even if passive cooling looks ok, a board still could be under par for a different reason.
www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813145375
You said that:
On B650, you get x16 Gen4 slot, whereas Intel's is Gen3. Wrong
WiFi is 6E, Intel's is 6. Only on the A Wifi not on Mortar so half wrong
There are three more USB 10 Gbps and one more 5 Gbps ports on B650. Only on the A Wifi, on Mortar the 20Gbps and 10Gbps USBs are the same, exactly like i posted, so half wrong again
Memory support is slightly higher on B650. it is essentially insignificant +6200MHz for B660 (tested how many months ago and what was then the faster available DDR5) and +6400MHz for B650 - zero cost difference!
It seems to me that you are that will need to learn to pay attention to details... I said 10€ or whatever and it was about Mortar, regarding A Wifi model i just stated that the €70 difference is not justified, so I won't even lose my time for the above that you wrote! It's enough that I'm losing my time to point out your mistakes in Mortar:
www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-B650M-MORTAR-WIFI/Specification
www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-B660M-MORTAR-WIFI/Specification
B650 memory support is slightly higher on B650 it is essentially insignificant +6200MHz for B660 (tested how many months ago and what was then the faster available DDR5) and +6400MHz for B650 - zero cost difference!
- B660 second slot is Gen3 x4, on B650 it is Gen4 x4, so twice bandwidth
Yes just like i said (you made a mistake saying it's 16X not 4X) and the cost for MSI is $2-3 more i would guess
- B650 has onboard graphics on DP port is 4K/60 on B660, and DP port on B650 supports 8K/60 The DP is the same version 1.4 for both, it's the integrated GPUs that support different resolutions, there is no cost difference for MSI
- B650 has four USB 5 ports at rear I/O on B650, and four USB 2.0 on B660 Just like i mentioned but the cost difference is insignificant also here
- B650 has Flash BIOS button , B660 does not (is it an important feature!) I agree it's nice to have it, what's the cost for MSI $3-5 i would guess?
- B650 has a better audio chip ALC4080 with front supprt for high bit audio, B660 has ALC1220
They are very similar according to Igor's Lab and anyway i wouldn't expect more than $5-10 difference for MSI to implement it
- B650 supports one additional 4-pin fan connector $0.5-1 more?
- B650 comes with less bloatware and AIDA64 Extreme, B660 does not Super, now I'm ready to pay 70€ more lol
- B650 comes with one more SATA cable wrong again, according to above links both have 2
- B650 comes with WiFi antenna, B660 does not wrong again, according to above links both have it
- B650 had more elabore AM5 1718 socket, with more pins yeah more elaborate somehow still LGA with 17 more pins...
- B650 board has additional brackets for CPU cooler, B660 does not oh please stop wasting my time, you try too much...
- B650 board has more robust and longer NVMe drive heatsink are you serious, we are talking about 70€ you are really trying now (I'm not even sure if it's more robust but even if it was what's the cost difference)
- B650 is future-proof for Zen5 simple CPU, B660 is end-of-life product, aka DOA so essentially AMD is charging 60€-55€ more (i deducted the 10€-15€ from the street price difference) in order to offer the up to 2025+ support, so it's not free and it doesn't have anything to do with M/B cost Lol i have read the reviews that i think are valid, I don't care about others.
The above table regarding gaming performance difference is not representative at all imo and it's not that i didn't wanted Zen4 to be better, i posted about possible Zen4 gaming performance before we even had any gaming score leaks and i was very optimistic for Zen4 but sadly it didn't turn out so good as AMD claims.
In time i think it will get better as the platform matures, but it will never get to a point that 7600X is 5% faster than 12900K in 1080p like AMD claimed...
Regarding what I have to read, digest and learn probably we don't have the same view (but thanks anyway for welcome, although i would expected it when i joined TPU, why didn't you back then?)
The general point of listing was to show that B650 is more advanced, because it is. Those more advanced features come in a package, after extra labour hours and components are used. If you do not like the final price of package, that's absolutely fine. I do not like initial prices either. The only thing you cannot argue with me is that those boards should have the same price. Finally, you are requested to give members a benefit of a doubt before pointing back anything in bold text, and ask them to clarify before labelling anything as "wrong".
I initially looked into differences on Pro boards. I did not start from what is the same, but from differences. That's why I did not mention the first GPU slot. B650 does have another x16 slot Gen4 and B660 Gen3. The only thing I didn't explicitly say was that those slots are electrically wired x4. I was not wrong and you did not give me a benefit of a doubt, which is the attitude you are expected to change in future. I do agree that I could have worded it better.
In the original post, I suggested later in the text that Mortar boards might have similar differences, implicitly saying that preceding text was about Pro board. I didn't have time to look at Mortar initially. When I did, I found some differences too. So, posting that I was "half-wrong" was pointless because I separated the two lists later on and I didn't write about Mortar initially. Again, wording could have been better, but it also you who need to give a benefit of a doubt and not nitpick where not needed, but ask for clarification if unclear. It is true that WiFi version has the same antenna and cable. I take that back, as i looked into non-WiFi column.
Vast majority of new boards are overpriced, from low end to halo models. Plus, AM5 chipset link is crippled to 64 Gbps, half of what CPU provides. I will not buy a new AM5 board until this is fixed, either with PCIe switch or new edition of Prom21 chip.
I have nothing more to say about those four entry boards. Never spent so much time in my life on such boards.