WirkoThis is something AMD really should address and solve once and for all, and maybe the transition to openSIL could be the right opportunity. Every CPU/APU should be functional on every mobo out of the box, even if it works at 800 MHz and 35 W, to allow firmware updates and some amount of troubleshooting in BIOS and in the OS.

Doesn't all low end motherboards support BIOS flash without CPU? Gigabyte and Asrock's cheapest A620 have it so the rest higher tier motherboards should also support it. Asus does not support it on the cheapest motherboards, but you must be crazy to buy Asus's "cheapest" motherboards anyway. So this feature is waste of time and resources for me, Q-Flash will become more popular in future, I don't know why it took so much time.

usinameDoesn't all low end motherboards support BIOS flash without CPU? Gigabyte and Asrock's cheapest A620 have it so the rest higher tier motherboards should also support it. Asus does not support it on the cheapest motherboards, but you must be crazy to buy Asus's "cheapest" motherboards anyway. So this feature is waste of time and resources for me, Q-Flash will become more popular in future, I don't know why it took so much time.

Yeah, as far as I know BIOS flashback is a standard feature on all AM5 boards. That wasn't the case for AM4 though.

Edit: Wow, you're right. There are some low end Asus AM5 boards that lack it.

I only hope that AMD has their ducks in a row because, as unquestionably the greatest consumer-level x86 platform ever released, AM4 is going to be one tough act to follow. Seven years and three months after AM4's release, AMD was still releasing new CPUs for it with the R7-5700X3D. That is nothing short of astounding and has raised the bar with AM4 now being the benchmark against which every x86 platform to come will be compared.

AM4 brought AMD from the brink of bankruptcy to being the x86 technology leader which is a great thing but it also showed consumers what is possible and upped the ante with regard to consumer expectations. AMD's platforms are named after the DDR number that they use and if AMD manages to keep a single platform for DDR5 like they did with AM4 and DDR4, there's no question that they'll have another big winner on their hands. AM5 is poised to do even more damage to Intel than AM4 did because this time, consumers actually know who AMD is and it shouldn't be nearly as slow on the uptake as AM4 was.

I'm sure that a lot of consumers and pre-built/system integrator companies were initially shy to jump onto the AM4 bandwagon because it was so new and the most recent AMD offering up to that point was the FX-series which, by that point, was horribly outclassed by Intel's Core architecture. With AM5, there's no question that AMD knows what they're doing and, if AMD administers AM5 the same way that they administered AM4, it will exceed the success of AM4 and AM5 will then be the greatest x86 platform ever released.

As consumers, we should keep our fingers crossed because if AM5 turns out to be the worthy successor to AM4 that it could (and should) be, Intel is going to have to stop screwing people (with regard to the forced motherboard upgrades) if it wants to survive. This will be great for consumers because it will mean fewer motherboards that we'd have to purchase (from both sides) with another very positive side-effect, a huge decrease in the amount of e-waste that we produce because motherboards are very large pieces of PCB. That's something that everyone can agree is important.

Avro ArrowI only hope that AMD has their ducks in a row because, as unquestionably the greatest consumer-level x86 platform ever released, AM4 is going to be one tough act to follow. Seven years and three months after AM4's release, AMD was still releasing new CPUs for it with the R7-5700X3D. That is nothing short of astounding and has raised the bar with AM4 now being the benchmark against which every x86 platform to come will be compared.

AM4 brought AMD from the brink of bankruptcy to being the x86 technology leader which is a great thing but it also showed consumers what is possible and upped the ante with regard to consumer expectations. AMD's platforms are named after the DDR number that they use and if AMD manages to keep a single platform for DDR5 like they did with AM4 and DDR4, there's no question that they'll have another big winner on their hands. AM5 is poised to do even more damage to Intel than AM4 did because this time, consumers actually know who AMD is and it shouldn't be nearly as slow on the uptake as AM4 was.

I'm sure that a lot of consumers and pre-built/system integrator companies were initially shy to jump onto the AM4 bandwagon because it was so new and the most recent AMD offering up to that point was the FX-series which, by that point, was horribly outclassed by Intel's Core architecture. With AM5, there's no question that AMD knows what they're doing and, if AMD administers AM5 the same way that they administered AM4, it will exceed the success of AM4 and AM5 will then be the greatest x86 platform ever released.

As consumers, we should keep our fingers crossed because if AM5 turns out to be the worthy successor to AM4 that it could (and should) be, Intel is going to have to stop screwing people (with regard to the forced motherboard upgrades) if it wants to survive. This will be great for consumers because it will mean fewer motherboards that we'd have to purchase (from both sides) with another very positive side-effect, a huge decrease in the amount of e-waste that we produce because motherboards are very large pieces of PCB. That's something that everyone can agree is important.

It would make total sense for AMD to stick with Socket AM5 with ZEN5 and ZEN6 architectures. Not sure about ZEN7 that's rumoured to be a ZEN6 architecture overhaul.
AMD sticking to a single socket for several years and giving people upgrade options is a great consumer friendly move, unlike Intel.

ZEN6 being a totally brand new micro architecture design including Infinity Link, similar high speed, low latency interconnect found on Radeon GPUs.
ZEN5 to be similar to ZEN4 but with an architecture overhaul, especially in its front end and cache setup.

AM6 will only come about with the introduction of DDR6, that's years away. ZEN 6 is a no brainer, but when we start seeing press releases for DDR6 modules, and they start to become available, then AM6 will follow. Hopefully AMD will have learned from the AM5 launch, and their refusal to follow Intels dual DDR support, to allow for a less costly upgrade path this time, as the prices, lack of performance and availability of DDR5 did not do them any favours.

stimpy88AM6 will only come about with the introduction of DDR6, that's years away. ZEN 6 is a no brainer, but when we start seeing press releases for DDR6 modules, and they start to become available, then AM6 will follow. Hopefully AMD will have learned from the AM5 launch, and their refusal to follow Intels dual DDR support, to allow for a less costly upgrade path this time, as the prices, lack of performance and availability of DDR5 did not do them any favours.

PCIe 6 may come (in the form of press releases) earlier than DDR6. But the requirements of servers, not desktops, will dictate the timelines of both. Regardless, new tech will materialise in desktop CPUs first, because they serve as testing and learning platform for the serious $10k chips.

Also... If both three DRAM makers switch all of their production lines to AI HBM, there will be no DDR to buy anyway, of any generation.

Super XPZEN6 being a totally brand new micro architecture design including Infinity Link, similar high speed, low latency interconnect found on Radeon GPUs.
ZEN5 to be similar to ZEN4 but with an architecture overhaul, especially in its front end and cache setup.

ZEN6 top range npu's would need 4 channels - 256b - access to ddr5 or ddr6 memory, so new socket is inevitable for them imho. Entry level apus - 6-8 cores - would still stick to AM5 2 channels ddr5 memory.

Super XPAMD sticking to a single socket for several years and giving people upgrade options is a great consumer friendly move, unlike Intel.

There are two categories of consumers:
1. Buy the motherboard and processor and keep them for years. Possibly upgrade to the next generation in the case of the processor.
If you bought the 8700K in 2017 and upgraded to the 9900K in 2020 (the price dropped dramatically), you still have a decent processor in 2024. Obviously, if the motherboard holds up.

2. Change processors like socks. I don't really see how you save money in this case by keeping the same motherboard.

Gica2. Change processors like socks. I don't really see how you save money in this case by keeping the same motherboard.

If mobo is as much as 2-3 times expensive as entry level CPU or APU so they have to sell cheap and small chip , in the meantime low cost mobos coming to the market so it is not a hard task to sell used CPU at bargain price - for someone else. If CPU is paired with expensive mobo - it is harder to sell them without substantial loss.

WirkoPCIe 6 may come (in the form of press releases) earlier than DDR6. But the requirements of servers, not desktops, will dictate the timelines of both. Regardless, new tech will materialise in desktop CPUs first, because they serve as testing and learning platform for the serious $10k chips.

Also... If both three DRAM makers switch all of their production lines to AI HBM, there will be no DDR to buy anyway, of any generation.

With all the trouble they had with PCIE5? I can't see it, for at least another 2 years. I'd guess AM6 is 3 years away.

If I was AMD, I'd make a revision of AM5 with quad channel DDR5 support. 16 cores and APU's need it.

Super XPIt would make total sense for AMD to stick with Socket AM5 with ZEN5 and ZEN6 architectures. Not sure about ZEN7 that's rumoured to be a ZEN6 architecture overhaul.
AMD sticking to a single socket for several years and giving people upgrade options is a great consumer friendly move, unlike Intel.

ZEN6 being a totally brand new micro architecture design including Infinity Link, similar high speed, low latency interconnect found on Radeon GPUs.
ZEN5 to be similar to ZEN4 but with an architecture overhaul, especially in its front end and cache setup.

As long as it has the same longevity as AM4, there's no question in my mind that AM5 will be a huge success.

Avro ArrowAs long as it has the same longevity as AM4, there's no question in my mind that AM5 will be a huge success.

AM4 allowed me to get into selling PCs. I was able to use and feel all of the IPC and clock speed improvements over the life of AM4. I have posted about my experience Ad naseum. Now I am on AM5 and love the performance. With the flexibility of X670E I know that I will not be changing the MB but the next X3D chip will be mine on day one. I don't need reviews to buy AMD CPUs. For me everything Lisa Su has said about Ryzen on AM has been bulletproof. I remember when people doubted 5 Ghz all cores and she delivered with even the X3D chips supporting 5 GHZ. Thanks to Intel innovating as well to make sure AMD keeps trying and delivering. Their further (increased) adoption of Open source has already brought tangible benefits. The CPU Wars are great for the consumer. IF you like Intel there are capable chips in the $200 range but the MB support is wanting in some aspects.

kapone32AM4 allowed me to get into selling PCs. I was able to use and feel all of the IPC and clock speed improvements over the life of AM4. I have posted about my experience Ad naseum. Now I am on AM5 and love the performance. With the flexibility of X670E I know that I will not be changing the MB but the next X3D chip will be mine on day one. I don't need reviews to buy AMD CPUs. For me everything Lisa Su has said about Ryzen on AM has been bulletproof. I remember when people doubted 5 Ghz all cores and she delivered with even the X3D chips supporting 5 GHZ. Thanks to Intel innovating as well to make sure AMD keeps trying and delivering. Their further (increased) adoption of Open source has already brought tangible benefits. The CPU Wars are great for the consumer. IF you like Intel there are capable chips in the $200 range but the MB support is wanting in some aspects.

If I didn't already have an R7-5800X3D and 64GB of DDR4-3600, I too would have sprung for an X670E motherboard (specifically, the ASRock X670E PG Lightning). I'm actually curious though about just how long I can make AM4 last. I started on AM4 with an R7-1700 back in 2017. I currently have an ASRock X570 Pro4 but I started with an ASRock X370 Killer SLI. I sold that motherboard but I could have easily kept on using it. The reason I bought my X570 Pro4 was because I wanted to try out Smart Access Memory, something that only the 500-series boards supported. It wasn't worth it. :laugh:

Still, I've been on AM4 for the past seven years so I figured that I may as well see just how far I can push it as a relevant gaming system. I also figured that the money would be better spent on my RX 7900 XTX because I think that an R7-5800X3D with a 7900 XTX gets better gaming performance than an R7-7800X3D with an RX 7800 XT. :D

Avro ArrowIf I didn't already have an R7-5800X3D and 64GB of DDR4-3600, I too would have sprung for an X670E motherboard (specifically, the ASRock X670E PG Lightning). I'm actually curious though about just how long I can make AM4 last. I started on AM4 with an R7-1700 back in 2017. I currently have an ASRock X570 Pro4 but I started with an ASRock X370 Killer SLI. I sold that motherboard but I could have easily kept on using it. The reason I bought my X570 Pro4 was because I wanted to try out Smart Access Memory, something that only the 500-series boards supported. It wasn't worth it. :laugh:

Still, I've been on AM4 for the past seven years so I figured that I may as well see just how far I can push it as a relevant gaming system. I also figured that the money would be better spent on my RX 7900 XTX because I think that an R7-5800X3D with a 7900 XTX gets better gaming performance than an R7-7800X3D with an RX 7800 XT. :D

I hear that and that is part of the magic of AM4. I actually started with the 1700X too and then jumped to X399. I came back to AM4 at the 5900X and then got a 5800X3D. My last AM4 board was the MSI X570S Ace Max. For me it is the most beautiful board I have ever owned. When I saw how many M2 and PCIe slots some of the X670E boards had I settled on the MSI X670E Carbon and the Asus X670E E Strix as I expect AM5 to be just as flexible.

Avro ArrowAs long as it has the same longevity as AM4, there's no question in my mind that AM5 will be a huge success.

From AMD, so AM5 will stick around for another 3 years. Originally they planned to support it until 2025 but things have chanced seeing how Socket AM5 struggled as its 1st gen release.

AMD has confirmed that it will release its Zen 5-based Ryzen 8000 CPUs in 2024, and the AM5 socket will be supported until 2026. This announcement was made during AMD's "Meet the experts" webinar and was confirmed by reliable hardware leaker Harukaze5719 on Twitter. The AM5 socket is currently one of the fastest in the world, thanks to its 3D V-cache capabilities.

The AM5 socket is currently one of the fastest in the world, thanks to its 3D V-cache capabilities.

How can a socket be fast? :wtf:

AMD may be releasing AM4 CPUs now but they are quite irrelevant.
I don't think anyone was waiting all these years with an AM4 system, the release of the 5600GT or even the 5700X3D.
All these releases are pointless to me.
Reducing the price of the existing lineup, 5800X3D, 5600X-5950X would be more than enough.

AM5 support till 2025 and beyond may also mean that 9000 and 9000X3D CPUs may be the last one on this socket.
If they release the 9000 on Q3-Q4 2024 and the 9000X3D next year Q2-Q3 for example....then they can just release entry level cpus and apus until 2026 and call it a day.

Anyway, ZEN 5 is coming to AM5 but ZEN 6 is not guaranteed at all.

AusWolfHow can a socket be fast? :wtf:

I think he means the socket that supports ZEN4 and soon to come ZEN5 CPUs with 3D V-Cache Technology.

gffermariAMD may be releasing AM4 CPUs now but they are quite irrelevant.
I don't think anyone was waiting all these years with an AM4 system, the release of the 5600GT or even the 5700X3D.
All these releases are pointless to me.
Reducing the price of the existing lineup, 5800X3D, 5600X-5950X would be more than enough.

AM5 support till 2025 and beyond may also mean that 9000 and 9000X3D CPUs may be the last one on this socket.
If they release the 9000 on Q3-Q4 2024 and the 9000X3D next year Q2-Q3 for example....then they can just release entry level cpus and apus until 2026 and call it a day.

Anyway, ZEN 5 is coming to AM5 but ZEN 6 is not guaranteed at all.

If you had a 2600 would you feel the same? There are still people that even have 1700s. Both of those CPUs would be tangibly slower than any of the new CPUs AMD is releasing for AM4. That is just a CPU upgrade.

kapone32If you had a 2600 would you feel the same? There are still people that even have 1700s. Both of those CPUs would be tangibly slower than any of the new CPUs AMD is releasing for AM4. That is just a CPU upgrade.

Yes I would feel the same.
If I had a 1700 or a 2600, I would like to upgrade to 5800X3D or 5950X, depending on the use case. If I couldn't find at the correct price, then I would go one tier lower, meaning 5800X, 5900X and so on.
I don't see a point I would ever buying a 5700GT, a 5600X3D, 5600GT etc.

gffermariYes I would feel the same.
If I had a 1700 or a 2600, I would like to upgrade to 5800X3D or 5950X, depending on the use case. If I couldn't find at the correct price, then I would go one tier lower, meaning 5800X, 5900X and so on.
I don't see a point I would ever buying a 5700GT, a 5600X3D, 5600GT etc.

You are on a 5800X3D you have already done the rationalization to get that CPU. You also explained the point in you second sentence. Price is the mitigating factor. Not all AMD chips sell well. I will use the example of the 8700G. For what they want for it an Asus ROG Ally is actually a better buy as you get everything else included to make the chip run. On AM4 I am sure there are more than enough users with 1st and 2nd gen chips that want a cheaper solution than the 5800X,5900X or 5950X. It's not like those CPUs are expensive in relation though. You can expect these to compete with I3 and 115 (I think ) CPUs. All of those CPUs are cheaper than those 3. If I had a 2600 and could get a 5600GT for the same or less than what I paid for my 2600 I would be happy.

kapone32I hear that and that is part of the magic of AM4. I actually started with the 1700X too and then jumped to X399. I came back to AM4 at the 5900X and then got a 5800X3D. My last AM4 board was the MSI X570S Ace Max. For me it is the most beautiful board I have ever owned. When I saw how many M2 and PCIe slots some of the X670E boards had I settled on the MSI X670E Carbon and the Asus X670E E Strix as I expect AM5 to be just as flexible.

I sure hope so. The runaway success of AM4 should have taught AMD a thing or two as it brought them from the brink to absolutely battering Intel. If you were to tell me eight years ago that we'd be here today, I would've said "You're nuts!" but here we are. :laugh:

Avro ArrowI sure hope so. The runaway success of AM4 should have taught AMD a thing or two as it brought them from the brink to absolutely battering Intel. If you were to tell me eight years ago that we'd be here today, I would've said "You're nuts!" but here we are. :laugh:

AM5 would have seen much more success if they had taken the logical and customer friendly route that Intel took, and supported DDR4 on AM5. That hurt AMD, at least initially, and I bet that is why AM4 is still very active, enough for new products. I would like to think AMD learned from that, but I won't hold my breath when AM6 comes in a few years.

stimpy88AM5 would have seen much more success if they had taken the logical and customer friendly route that Intel took, and supported DDR4 on AM5. That hurt AMD, at least initially, and I bet that is why AM4 is still very active, enough for new products. I would like to think AMD learned from that, but I won't hold my breath when AM6 comes in a few years.

Not to mention, a 5800X3D is more than enough for any gamer. I say this, owning a 7800X3D, as I only bought it due to curiosity, not need. I wouldn't recommend anyone with an AM4 system to follow my path, as it is a waste of money (a nice waste, but still a waste).

stimpy88AM5 would have seen much more success if they had taken the logical and customer friendly route that Intel took, and supported DDR4 on AM5. That hurt AMD, at least initially, and I bet that is why AM4 is still very active, enough for new products. I would like to think AMD learned from that, but I won't hold my breath when AM6 comes in a few years.

I am sure AMD was aware of that. Lisa Su herself said during the launch of AM5 that AM4 would continue to be supported. She did mention that 180+ million AM4 systems were sold and that is a huge customer base. The MB vendors are more to blame with $1000 top end boards and between $500-$700 for mid range. DDR5 was achievable for $200 all of these prices are in Canadian. The 7800X3D is the fulcrum of AM5 sales for me and it also at a time where B650/E boards sit around $200-$400. If you are building a new PC, AM5 makes sense for CPU upgrades. If you are already on AM4 and don't have a 5000 series chip, these new chips on AM4 make complete sense. A 5700X3D is $100 less than a 5800X3D. You could also get a 5900X for $359 or $20 more. When you really look at it with either you are Golden. If the 8900X3D supports 5.6 Ghz on the Vcache CCD, I will be buying one. My nephew has a 3600 based system, the 5700X3D looks like a nice upgrade for him for his Bday in May. I would not worry about AMD at all, if anything the MSI Claw more cemented their position in the APU space. That allows them to sell the 8700G for more than the 5700X3D and just $20 less than the 5800X3D. Even their GPUs seem to be selling well as I see about 4 models at the store (7600Xt, 7800Xt, 7900XTX, 7600) while there are plenty of 4080s and 4070Ti variants. The thing is you can buy 2 7800XTs for the price of a 4070TI and 4 7600XTs for the price of a 4080.