Vayra86I think Elon is a forever in beta guy much like Chris Roberts. Visionary, but hopeless at sustaining his envisioned future.
Also the man has mental issues and now a drug problem. The trajectory hasn't been great. Power and money corrupts.
So far the only real project he's delivered is Tesla. Now, sustaining Tesla is another chapter. A lot of changes have already landed there, and they're slowly drifting away from promises made because the business can't sustain it.

SpaceX isn't sustainable either, its heavily subsidized and would not exist without US gov. Neuralink is a fairy tale so far.

He also delivered PayPal. But yeah, lately he seems to be going off the farm any chance he gets. (Just a generic feeling, I'm not following him too closely.)

thesmokingmanThe verge has gone full woke you know, they are so in MSM pockets. I will lol when they go under like all the other merchants of hate bait.

What the hell does Woke even mean?

kapone32What the hell does Woke even mean?

That depends on who you talk to, but it generally means that someone has "Awoken" from the past values of humanity to supposed new and more "Enlightened" ways of thinking and looking at reality. However, most of the sad drivel that most "woke" losers claim as "enlightened" are just nonsense. It's little more than an excuse to behave like barbarians and low-lives on most levels.

Dr. DroYou know as well as I that, especially in the technology business, not everything goes precisely to plan or precisely to schedule.

That's an interesting perspective, but when it becomes intentional fraud, how do you see it as anything other than intentional fraud? I understand missing the mark and hoping for more but not achieving it. But when you miss the mark, if you resort to lying, and presenting known fraudulent videos and products, that is just simply fraud.

People have gone to prison for far less. I think he will too once his wave if fraud crashes and the ones who were happily riding the wave turn on him.

ty_gerThat's an interesting perspective, but when it becomes intentional fraud, how do you see it as anything other than intentional fraud? I understand missing the mark and hoping for more but not achieving it. But when you miss the mark, if you resort to lying, and presenting known fraudulent videos and products, that is just simply fraud.

People have gone to prison for far less. I think he will too once his wave if fraud crashes and the ones who were happily riding the wave turn on him.

So, judge, jury and executioner? You know something the shareholders don't?

bugSo, judge, jury and executioner? You know something the shareholders don't?

He provided video demonstrations which he knew were fake. He presented 'working' products which he knew were fake. The second one cost him a $10 million fine and a position on the board. The first ones, we are still waiting to see. I hope that the shareholders know by now.

Point is, how do you see intentional fraud as harmlessly missing a mark?

ty_gerThat's an interesting perspective, but when it becomes intentional fraud, how do you see it as anything other than intentional fraud? I understand missing the mark and hoping for more but not achieving it. But when you miss the mark, if you resort to lying, and presenting known fraudulent videos and products, that is just simply fraud.

People have gone to prison for far less. I think he will too once his wave if fraud crashes and the ones who were happily riding the wave turn on him.

Your opinions do not reality make, especially when they are so blatantly meritless.

ty_gerHe provided video demonstrations which he knew were fake. He presented 'working' products which he knew were fake. The second one cost him a $10 million fine and a position on the board. The first ones, we are still waiting to see. I hope that the shareholders know by now.

Point is, how do you see intentional fraud as harmlessly missing a mark?

Present citations or YOU come off as the liar.

ty_gerHe provided video demonstrations which he knew were fake. He presented 'working' products which he knew were fake. The second one cost him a $10 million fine and a position on the board. The first ones, we are still waiting to see. I hope that the shareholders know by now.

Point is, how do you see intentional fraud as harmlessly missing a mark?

Are you sure you're not confusing Tesla and Nikola? www.theverge.com/2023/12/18/24006571/nikola-trevor-milton-sentence-prison-fraud-electric-truck

bugAre you sure you're not confusing Tesla and Nikola? www.theverge.com/2023/12/18/24006571/nikola-trevor-milton-sentence-prison-fraud-electric-truck

Yes, sure.

Battery swap demonstrations were known fraudulent presentations. Full self driving video was known fraudulent presentation. Solar roof tiles was a known fraudulent presentation. Etcetera. I already provided a long list of drivel.

Dream big. But don't lie when you miss.

It was part of my point that Nikola was hit so hard for less.

lexluthermiesterPresent citations or YOU come off as the liar.

I did.

ty_gerI did.

Where?

BTW...

ty_ger

...THAT doesn't count.

ty_ger

Nor does this..

ty_gerAttention. He talked a big game, riled everyone up, but then realized he was stuck with it after it was too late. He tried to back out, but he got himself on shakey legal ground too early. Folly. He is now suing his legal team for not trying hard enough to get him out of the Twitter deal, or something illogical like that.


Being single, 30, or owning a cat doesn't make you wrong.

To be clear, I don't know. I am no lawyer. But I do know that he is a bad guy. Either way, right or wrong, you should argue the content of the article rather than attacking the author.

1: Twitter never made money, and its being handled with significantly less overhead than before. Most of its loss of revenue was due to activists attacks and its been slowly recovering. Acting as though twitter/X is dead is foolish.

ty_gerBut he is a conman. Devilish is your description, but conman can't be argued. I am not aware of any billionaire deities, but any who supposedly exist aren't the subject of this topic.

SpaceX rockets are not human rated, but are operating at a comparable cost to the Shuttle which was human rated. That's progress? We had a successful rocket stage retro landing demonstration 30 years prior by a different group of people. The concept isn't new and the solution isn't new. It hasn't ever been proven to be economically viable. The engines and stages are minimally "reusable" where the inspection and repair cost is about the same as manufacturing cost. Payload reduction more than offsets any supposed cost benefits (even if they could figure out how to reuse them more affordably). We were supposed to have SpaceX on Mars years ago. What happened? False hype. Where is the fun mars mission with entertainers and fine dining? False hype. Where are the multiple rocket trips per day to the other side of earth? False investment claims. They are highly subsidized, so it is impossible to make good comparisons, but it is pretty clear that they aren't saving us money, especially when the majority of their payload is their own product which us taxpayers are funding.

Why did he leave PayPal?

Why was he kicked off the board of directors at Tesla and fined $10 million?

What did he say about those fake solar roof tiles that he claimed were installed and claimed were a working product? Was that false advertising? Why did it take so long for the tiles to actually be on the market, and look so different than the advertised 'working' tiles?

What about the fake 4 minute Tesla battery swap demonstrations? Were they false advertising and stock hype?

What about the robo taxi software that was definitely coming out 4 years ago which made it "financial suicide" not to order a Tesla? Was that false advertising and stock hype?

What about the solar-powered rapid charging stations? Where are they? What kind of bump did that give to their share price?

What about the car that would smart summon across America? Was he purposely lying in order to increase share prices?

What about the full self-driving videos which employees later admitted were fake. Was that intentional fraud?

What about the hyperloop? Did he know that it was technologically impossible to do what he suggested? Did he purposely create hype for a failed 100-year-old concept just for the funding opportunity and attention? Was that hype? Where did that funding go?

What about the truck which was "this is something we can do today", years ago? Was that stock hype? It was "financial suicide" to continue to invest in rail. What happened? People pre-ordered, waited for the release 4 years late, and now the company says that they are keeping the trucks for internal company use only. Where did the pre-order money go? Who wants a truck anyway which hauls 1/4 to 1/2 as much payload, 1/4 the distance, and takes 32 times longer to "refuel" for the same distance (best case)? Where is the smart driving? Where is the convoy system? Where are all the features which would be "financial suicide" not to have? Where are the charging stations and guaranteed electric price?

The list goes on and on. Look at any presentation, see what he says, and see what the follow-through is. He never delivers. Every time the stock shoots up from hype, but the product never arrives. It can't last forever. He is a conman. The bumps in stock are getting smaller and smaller. People are catching on.

The boring company is non-competitive. Tesla is up against steep competition at a better price. The hyperloop is dead. SpaceX is struggling. And Musk is losing money like crazy after purchasing Twitter and running it into the ground. Twitter isn't a left versus right thing, unless you make it that. Fundamentally, the twitter advertiser thing is caused by a display of a mess of contradictory statements made by poor leadership (Musk), chaos, heavy-handed actions and statements which make your employees hate you and leave, and the advertisers reacting to it all by exiting because they are afraid of massive and rapid instability affecting their brand image. People want to make it a left vs right thing and say that advertisers bailed due to their political affiliations, but really the only reason left vs right is continuing to be pushed so hard is because that is the only thing keeping twitter relevant. Twitter is purposely fanning the flames.


The only hope for justice for Musk misleading people and capitalizing at people's expense, is that he loses enough power that people are no longer scared of holding him accountable. He is not someone to idolize. He is a symbol of corruption and intentional abuse. He is a villain.



I will be surprised if he doesn't eventually go to prison for securities fraud once it all comes crashing down.

I think @Dr. Dro summed it up pretty well. He's showing off a product they are working on, its normal in the business world. Most products you see on crowd sourcing sites rarely have a full working product. Fraud implies he's taking the money and running which is not true.

Most of the hate for Elon Musk came when he bought Twitter and said he believed in the open exchange of ideas versus hardcore censorship (Which has been used as a way to silence one side of the debate). He is definitely eccentric and an off the walls guy, but to claim he's a fraud because he tries to promote products before they are ready for investing or that he is just a loon with no idea what hes doing. Tesla is a prime example of him being able to push an idea forward and making a company nearly from scratch. Regardless of the belief that electric cars were coming or if you like them, Tesla is definitely the company that has made them a mainstream mode of transportation instead of a niche. Every other company that makes electric cars can only dream of being where tesla is and they are constantly innovating and finding ways to keep costs down (Updated battery packs that remove some of the precious metals as an example) and this is coming for someone who has very little to no interest in owning an electric car. I don't hold him as being something truly amazing, but I will stand by that for the most part he knows what he's doing and has pushed many fields forward with his money/help. Who knows what the future holds for him and I may change my mind in the next couple years depending on what happens to him, but currently I think the hate is specific because he does not bend the knee to the activists out there like Mark Cuban or others similarly do.

It also does not change the facts of this case at least from what we have seen.

GhostRyderI think @Dr. Dro summed it up pretty well. He's showing off a product they are working on, its normal in the business world. Most products you see on crowd sourcing sites rarely have a full working product. Fraud implies he's taking the money and running which is not true.

No, fraud is fraud. Running has nothing to do with fraud. It is often an outcome, but not a defining characteristic. By making false claims, demonstrating fake results, showing off fake products, and explicitly stating that they are currently functioning products which are functioning in the demonstration as claimed, he committed securities fraud. Some he has paid for, most he has not yet.

Missing the mark is fine. Models and mockups are fine. Missing the mark and then claiming that a mockup is a functioning product is a whole different thing. He explicitly stated that the demonstrations were real.

I have nothing against him other than how he has abused so many. I don't care about his political views or anything else. All I care about is that he is a liar, is hurting people, and will hurt a lot more people financially when his wave of fraud breaks.

lexluthermiester...THAT doesn't count.

Nor does this..

I am sure his words were all deep-fakes, right?


Why do some people have such a strong affinity that they choose to be blind? It's really an odd stance. They argue the source instead of questioning and considering the content.

ty_gerI am sure his words were all deep-fakes, right?

Wow...

ty_gerWhy do some people have such a strong affinity that they choose to be blind?

Kettle, meet Pot.

ty_gerThey argue the source instead of questioning and considering the content.

The content is little more than spin-doctoring. IF you really want to believe that nonsense then you can't complain when people mock you over it.

He made the fraudulent claims. Over and over again. It is a constant characteristic of the milestones in his life. They are his words. There is no spin.


Answer these questions. Just for starters.

Did he found PayPal?

Did he found Tesla?

Did he fake a battery swap?

Did he fake a full self-driving video?

Did he fake solar roof tiles?

Did he dump Tesla stock repeatedly after claiming he never would or that he would stop doing it?

Did he make false claims about company progress?

Did he make false claims about product delivery?

Did he fail to protect his workers from being injured?

Did he abuse his workers?

Will he hurt investors if his claims never come true?

ty_gerDid he found PayPal?

Yes.
tracxn.com/d/companies/paypal/__XAo5FNrBPPa9BCWs59TohTz2wpB9isH8_nClARiKWnM/founders-and-board-of-directors

ty_gerDid he found Tesla?

Yes.
www.tesla.com/elon-musk

ty_gerDid he fake a battery swap?

No. Elon has NEVER personally handled any of the physical battery operations.

ty_gerDid he fake a full self-driving video?

No. You claiming he did is silly.

ty_gerDid he fake solar roof tiles?

No. You claiming he did is silly.

ty_gerDid he dump Tesla stock repeatedly after claiming he never would or that he would stop doing it?

His property(stocks are ownership, and are lawful properties) is his to do with as HE sees fit, you nor anyone else has ANY say in the matter.

ty_gerDid he make false claims about company progress?

No. If he had, the SEC would have prosecuted him for it. Because making those kinds of false claims is a federal felony.

ty_gerDid he make false claims about product delivery?

No. And you can't prove he did. Why? Because production and sell-through data is confidential data, not public info.

ty_gerDid he fail to protect his workers from being injured?

That question is a "red herring" type question.

ty_gerDid he abuse his workers?

No. Another red herring question.

ty_gerWill he hurt investors if his claims never come true?

You tell us, will he?

ty_gerThere is no spin.

You were saying what now?

You answered most of those questions incorrectly.

Paypal existed before Musk and was aquired.

Tesla existed before Musk and he was an early investor.

On stage, in front of a crowd of people, Elon musk demonstrated an automated battery swap to convince people that they had a solution to slow charge times. Multiple times. It was fake. No swap actually happened.

Under pressure of missed milestones and lack of progress, Elon presented video evidence that the car was capable of full self-driving. It was fake.

Promises, "we can do this now", "we guarantee charge price", etcetera, are the highlights of his presentations, but never happen. False claims. Lack of progress.

He did fake solar roof tiles. In front of a crowd of people, he unveiled fake solar roof tiles, said they functioned, and claimed that the houses around the crowd all had solar roof tiles. It was all a lie.

In order to assure investors, he said that he would never sell his Tesla stocks. He sold repeatedly. Each time he did, he said he would never again.

It's not a red herring question. Tesla had more plant injuries than the other big auto makers combined. Reportedly Musk wanted the plant to be sexy instead of safe, would not allow protections to be put in place, and would not allow site safety inspections to be performed.

Abuse of his peers and coworkers is well documented.



So just when it comes to surface level stuff, you have no clue what you are talking about here. You should learn more on the subject before having such a strong opinion.

ty_gerOn stage, in front of a crowd of people, Elon musk demonstrated an automated battery swap to convince people that they had a solution to slow charge times. Multiple times. It was fake. No swap actually happened.

He showed it once, to prove it can be done. He never claimed it was in production or even going into production (the hard part is not even swapping the battery, it's the logistics around handling spares, hardly anything Tesla could handle on its own).

But we get it, you're full of rabid hate. Nothing we can do about that.

He showed it multiple times, that "one time", and all of them were fake. The battery didn't swap even then in that special case. It wasn't just a problem of scale, logistics, or failing to follow through. This is a prime example of wilfull and intentional fraud. He knowingly and willingly mislead the public by not only creating an expectation, but by committing fraud in the process. He demonstrated nothing and claimed that something was happening. Claimed that people were silently witnessing a breakthrough of nothing.

Like I said, this is just a prime example. He is a bad dude. He has a history of being a bad dude. If you just start by looking at his history, you can't help but dislike him. I am not a rabid hater; more so my personality requires justice, rabid and blind fanboys challenge my sense of a just world, and it spurs me on to find out more about him. The more I learn about him, the more I dislike him.


When a fanboy knows nothing about him and then says I am wrong.... what are you doing, man?

Thread closed. The battery ran flat.