DavenLol yep. If they are both the same might as well pick the newer one that is free and continues to get support.

By that logic might as well go Ubuntu, with some customization it's ALMOST the same too ;) And ACTUALLY free.

DavenLol yep. If they are both the same might as well pick the newer one that is free and continues to get support.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the vast majority of Windows laptop buyers keep the variant it came with, or maybe do a reinstall at the most.

PumperWe can hate this move, but it makes sense, as these laptops will come with Win 11/12 out of the box anyway. I can't imagine anyone getting a brand new laptop with Win 11 or 12 license and go to the trouble to downgrade to 10.

Consumers won't care, but enterprises with restrictions on what software they can run (government, military, finance, medical, national infrastructure etc) will potentially need to stick with a specific version of W10, possibly even LTSC-derivatives.

Larger-scale enterprises may also have a unified rollout of one OS with vetted or in-house applications written specifically for that OS. The 100% guaranteed functionality of those in-house applications is far more important than a few tweaks to the UI and a scheduler that takes better advantage of heterogenous CPU architecture.

Lastly, you have smaller business who treat upgrading their OS and in-house documentation, potentially having to train staff on the new OS as an unnecessary burden to be skipped as often as possible. If a new OS version doesn't bring any financial advantage to the organisation, why should they invest man-hours and money on the upgrade just to appease Microsoft? Most SMBs have a core suite of applications that aren't web-based and chances are good that they'll run on any OS - some of the biggest software vendors still support Windows 8! Everything else typically runs in a browser, which is practically its own OS and cuts Windows out of the equation entirely.

ExcuseMeWtfBy that logic might as well go Ubuntu, with some customization it's ALMOST the same too ;) And ACTUALLY free.

I would love to go Linux and many here do.

SL2Oh you don't want to group your icons? Well then you MUST have titles.

Ah I see the problem now, I just never tried that. So it's the same behaviour as in Win 7, and same as in Win 10 since 2017.

SL2Two clicks instead of one.

You can save the first click by pointing the cursor at the icon and waiting 0.3 seconds for window previews. But given the reliability of the UI, you may need to wait 10 or 30 seconds.

SL2But SL2, you can haz Alt-tab, or windows-tab, etc?

More weird stuff ... in the Alt-Tab list, Excel documents are always at the end of the list, even if they are the most recent that you switched to.

SL2Exactly, just pick W11, it's almost the same.

DavenLol yep. If they are both the same might as well pick the newer one that is free and continues to get support.

The thing is, they're not the same. Internally, there's a lot of similarity, but the Win11 UI is very different and leaves a lot to be desired. Even after all this time. *That's* what people are complaining about. Well, that and the ludicrous system requirements.

Stupid decision. It only proves that they don't have a software division.

SL2Don't blame AMD for W10 reaching EOL.

When Windows 10 is still used by many, you support it, at least for a year and grab market share from those who intent to buy a laptop with no OS or a laptop with Windows 11, only to be able to downgrade it to Windows 10. It doesn't matter if going from 11 to 10 is right or wrong, clever or stupid. You want to increase your market share? You support Windows 10 with at least one fully working driver.

It doesn't stop users from installing Win10 though, people got around the TPM requirement & this is also kind of a non issue. How many companies supported XP for years even after it went EOL?

Having said that official support would've been nice.

WirkoAh I see the problem now, I just never tried that. So it's the same behaviour as in Win 7, and same as in Win 10 since 2017.

W7 had the registry setting, set and forget. No problem.

WirkoYou can save the first click by pointing the cursor at the icon and waiting 0.3 seconds for window previews. But given the reliability of the UI, you may need to wait 10 or 30 seconds.

Yeah, I don't need that. Same goes for previews, I set them to like 5 seconds so I don't have to see all the bullshit flashing around. But then it breaks anyway after a couple of days and set at 0 seconds, and that's when I reach for my revolvrestart button.

As I'm not using a 240p display, I have room for all the icons. This works for me, and I can see how it doesn't for others. If I had the same program x20 then yes, I'd need some guidance to which is which.

Windows 7, then 7 years old, could not be installed on my Skylake system in 2016. Mobo and notebook manufacturers were helpful and provided USB 3.0 drivers and instructions for several sorts of workarounds, no complaints here. But out of the box, with USB install media and an USB keyboard, it didn't work.

SL2Exactly, just pick W11, it's almost the same.

It doesn't work with TMP disabled, it doesn't work without Microsoft account. And it is as ugly as MacOS.

SL2What exactly do you expect? W10 will be discontinued within a year of this launch. WTF can AMD do about that? :rolleyes:

Don't blame AMD for W10 reaching EOL.

Don't blame MS for ending W10 after TEN years.

Blame MS if you hate W11.


LTSC, yeah, is there even a legit way to run that for a consumer?

I'd guess no, so why would AMD care here?

I blame nadela for ruining Microsoft.

john_When Windows 10 is still used by many, you support it, at least for a year and grab market share from those who intent to buy a laptop with no OS or a laptop with Windows 11, only to be able to downgrade it to Windows 10. It doesn't matter if going from 11 to 10 is right or wrong, clever or stupid. You want to increase your market share? You support Windows 10 with at least one fully working driver.

Microsoft could just abandon Win 10 after 10 years and never make another OS again - and there would be less outrage among DIY enthusiasts than there is now.

And MS could totally survive that. SQL Server and Exchange for Linux, Office 365 and other services for home and business users - that's a lot of things to make a lot of money from.

Similar to how Zen 1 didnt come with Win 7 support, expecting Intel to do the same with their new platform.

PumperWe can hate this move, but it makes sense, as these laptops will come with Win 11/12 out of the box anyway. I can't imagine anyone getting a brand new laptop with Win 11 or 12 license and go to the trouble to downgrade to 10.

I bought a tablet with Windows 11. I wanted to try it, but it refused to work without connecting to internet. So without a try, I formatted C drive and installed Windows 10.

DavenI would love to go Linux and many here do.

My feeling is that Windows is propped up by two crumbling paradigms:

1. Windows gaming
2. Massive, ageing productivity suites written for Win32 that either don't have Web-based variants, or whose web-based variants are too cut-down and incomplete to replace their Win32 parent suite.

Steam Deck is early, yet highly-successful proof that you don't need Windows to run Windows games. Proton and Vulkan can happily run DirectX and Win32 code, sometimes faster than Windows (burdened by its 200 background services, 500 running background processes etc). As for productivity, Every year that goes by I see more and more of what people use all day every day moving to web platforms. What started as a "lite" web-based version that was just intended for ease of reviewing/presenting on low-powered portables has developed into more robust and capable miniature versions that do 50% of the full suite, and that 50% is the only 50% that most people will ever need.

• Google was always web-based.
• Microsoft has prioritised it for the last half-decade.
• Adobe, Autodesk, Oracle are firmly mid-transition.
• Even steadfast Win32 diehards like Dassault are slowly creating web-tools that offer partial functionality, which means it's only a matter of time.
• I even see accounting and payroll systems being hosted by a provider as the default, best option now.

How long until there will be nothing left that needs Windows? My guess is 10 years, unless Microsoft themselves radically change the concept of what Windows actually is.

Actually more than gaming it's the applications, there's so many on windows that have nothing equivalent on Linux or Mac. Although for me it's mostly system utilities.

I personally think it's a push from Microsoft for the CPU & GPU manufactures, Both Intel and NV will follow it as well.

Microsoft is done with people delaying the Windows upgrade and try to use it's power to force the Hardware makers to not support older softwares to force users to always use the newest Windows version.

I blame Microsoft for this, and I blame them as well as the main reason people prefer Windows 10 over 11 as well, Microsoft's is not doing what customers wants, they do what they want.

Dr. DroNot to mention LTSC has NEVER guaranteed forwards compatibility with new hardware.



You all brought this upon yourselves for being luddites, if the industry hadn't forced people's hands they'd still be using Windows XP today. Just look at the Windows 7 holdouts, clinically afraid of change.

Since Windows is now designed to be kept current at any cost, you also get no say about all of its undesirables unless you stop using it altogether. And it's all your fault for claiming to be proud to run a 15 year old unpatched copy of Windows 7 with Windows Update stripped out of it.

But those leaving Windows aren't getting Linux PC's. They're buying Macs. The rest is unwilling to learn anything else and just accept their fate.

Let's not blame the consumer for MS's greedy business practices.

R0H1TActually more than gaming it's the applications, there's so many on windows that have nothing equivalent on Linux or Mac. Although for me it's mostly system utilities.

Probably the main thing I miss from Windows is HWINFO. There's nothing like it on Linux. Sure, Linux has various methods to monitor hardware sensors; Psensor is a decent option for basic temperature readings; Smartmontools is great for storage; KDE Plasma can give you a nice at-a-glance summary via a desktop widget, and Linux has surprisingly effective NVIDIA and Radeon control panels--but there's no all-in-one HWINFO-like package in traditional application form. I guess you could use something like a NetData dashboard to replace HWInfo, but this is sort of like swatting a fly with a ballistic missile.

For just about every other task, Linux has an alternative that is at least loosely competitive, as far as I can tell. In some cases, the Linux alternative is better, IMO. Microsoft has itself recently made gestures that tacitly admit a kind of admiration for aspects of Linux's design--winget probably being the most relevant for people on this forum. Chrispy's spot on here; to the extent that Linux lags in productivity, it lags because there are specific proprietary ecosystems that are still confined to Windows, but that objection loses prominence as more work migrates to the cloud. The main holdout that I hear about is Adobe's software suite, but for most consumer use cases, the lack of Adobe on Linux shouldn't matter. Businesses and hardcore hobbyists are the ones who can't afford the trouble and the risk of swapping from Adobe to open source alternatives.

Where Linux really suffers is in the realm of approachability. That is largely a problem with Linux's community, and thus it may prove unsolvable. The product gets better every day, but learning the product, or solving routine issues with it, sometimes feels like a psychic battle against a horde of anti-social neckbeards.

EternitI blame nadela for ruining Microsoft.

I dunno, he uses the word "synergy" frequently, while simultaneously measuring said synergy with his hands, so I guess he must be awesome. /S

EternitIt doesn't work with TMP disabled, it doesn't work without Microsoft account.

Those are pretty easy to circumvent, right?

XajelI personally think it's a push from Microsoft for the CPU & GPU manufactures, Both Intel and NV will follow it as well.

Microsoft is done with people delaying the Windows upgrade and try to use it's power to force the Hardware makers to not support older softwares to force users to always use the newest Windows version.

I blame Microsoft for this, and I blame them as well as the main reason people prefer Windows 10 over 11 as well, Microsoft's is not doing what customers wants, they do what they want.

Nadela wants to do with Windows what he did with Windows Phone. He is not interested in operating system. He wants to force users to switch to Linux, so Microsoft can focus on clouds and AI.

Wastelandpsychic battle against a horde of anti-social neckbeards.

That's like 90% of this forum :laugh:

TheinsanegamerNLet's not blame the consumer for MS's greedy business practices.

Nah, this one is literally on the holdouts' check. The sole reason they turned Windows into a rolling release OS is to shorten the useful lifespan of each release so that these same people wouldn't expect 15-20 year old operating systems to be supported. Which is foolish because now they're clinging onto LTSC releases instead, and will continue to demand software developers to support these. The stroke of genius here is that technically, no consumer using an Enterprise IoT LTSC cut of WIndows is using a legal copy, because it's not made available to end users, so software and driver developers have no obligation to provide long-term support for these systems.

I get it that love is no fun with protection, but the kind of Trojan you'll be seeing isn't the one that comes in a pack when you're running an unpatched, 15+ year old OS, and this has very real implications on the health of the internet and the network at large, this willful negligence costs billions to businesses annually.

Dr. Drothe kind of Trojan you'll be seeing isn't the one that comes in a pack when you're running an unpatched, 15+ year old OS

That sounds way over the top, your avg internet "illiterate" person can get infected just as easily on win11(or linux/mac) as they can on win7 not to mention they generally don't run good(paid?) security software anyway.

Probably the biggest issue is with the pace of change, I know I've seen more change in my lifetime over the last 10 years than the 15-20 before that. The change is even more jarring for old(er) people & yes going to touch UI based elements is a major part of it.

Corporations should start catering towards the less tech inclined than pushing teen centric diarrhea like Tiktok on everyone else!

R0H1TThat sounds way over the top, your avg internet "illiterate" person can get infected just as easily on win11(or linux/mac) as they can on win7 not to mention they generally don't run good(paid?) security software anyway.

Probably the biggest issue is with the pace of change, I know I've seen more change in my lifetime over the last 10 years than the 15-20 before that. The change is even more jarring for old(er) people & yes going to touch UI based elements is a major part of it.

Corporations should start catering towards the less tech inclined than pushing teen centric diarrhea like Tiktok on everyone else!

Can we truly call people who run these configurations, such as unpatched and stripped, often custom versions of old releases of Windows just because they have a perceived belief that it makes their computer faster truly computer literate? Security software... idk, apparently Defender's got a great reputation of keeping up with almost any paid AV. I haven't used antiviruses in ages, I have Defender forcibly disabled as well... so no comment there.

Catering to the less tech inclined it's what they've been doing for the past ~25 years. The trap was sprung and we walked right into it. I think we can all agree that the perfect blend between beauty and workflow on a desktop was achieved with Windows 7... but what are the chances of Microsoft taking that cue?