gffermariMost people on the internet are fans of the underdog.

Yeah, that's what you see on the internet.

I mean look at this very thread, guy posted 2 images with no RT whatsoever and then a guy with an AMD logo jumped in to tell us how crap RT is cause there is no difference between the 2 images. LOL, you can't make this up.

tommo1982I thought I'll notice it easilly. I don't see any difference, though. It was similar with many RT test. The difference was only in shadows and reflections. Not that much of an 'amazing tech', I'd say.

Because neither image has RT bro, lol.

fevgatosThen post a proper side by side dude, lol.


Anyways, the one on the left (the one that looks at the road) doesn't have PT, but it doesn't look like the one on the right does either, so I think you are just trolling.

Now your turn

That's how GPU benchmarks are done. The pic was probably from such an article. I don't see people complaining because the author used bad screenshot.

I love how some people use RT as a reason for market share when China and it's partners have been buying 4090 class cards by the pallet. AI is so popular that even AMD is allowing As Rock to release cards to that market that support the newest spec of PSUs. It does not matter really as the truth is that AMD cards are cheaper than Nvidia and people who get them are pleasantly surprised that the narrative does not hold water. It allows Nvidia to sell 4090s for $2500 but don't think that no one is buying AMD cards as that is just not true. I would argue that the numbers would be much closer if China was not a factor.

tommo1982That's how GPU benchmarks are done. The pic was probably from such an article. I don't see people complaining because the author used bad screenshot.

Don't worry he is an Nvidia supporter. Nothing you say or prove will change his mindset.

fevgatosOF COURSE I couldn't tell which one has RT if neither do, lol. Are you serious? How the heck do you expect me to notice the difference RT makes when it's not even on.

You understand how ridiculous this is, right ? I show you 2 images, ask you which has RT, you wont answer. Then you say bunch of stuff about path tracing, which I didn't even mention which tells me you have no idea what you are even looking for, still wont answer, then you say neither has RT.

Strange that for such a ray tracing mega fan you can't immediately tell what I am showing you. Now I wonder how this works for your run of the mill not very tech savy consumer and yeah, I am thinking brand matters a lot lol.

fevgatosYeah, that's what you see on the internet.

I mean look at this very thread, guy posted 2 images with no RT whatsoever and then a guy with an AMD logo jumped in to tell us how crap RT is cause there is no difference between the 2 images. LOL, you can't make this up.


Because neither image has RT bro, lol.

I don't know whether it did or did not. That's not the point. The fact is, if my memory serves me well, I didn't see much of a difference with RT on or off in Call of Duty: MW 3. I don't understand why the bad attitude. It is what it is. Another gimmick to sell more GPU's to people. When a GPU can render a frame fully with RT and at least 60 fps, onl then I can say it's good.

Vya DomusYou understand how ridiculous this is, right ? I show you 2 images, ask you which has RT, you wont answer. Then you say bunch of stuff about path tracing, which I didn't even mention which tells me you have no idea what you are even looking for, still wont answer, then you say neither has RT.

Strange that for such a ray tracing mega fan you can't immediately tell what I am showing you. Now I wonder how this works for your run of the mill not very tech savy consumer and yeah, I am thinking brand matters a lot lol.

You posted 2 non side by side low quality images and asked which one has RT. From the get go your question was in bad faith cause neither one of those images has RT. You kept pestering me about not being able to tell which one has RT when neither has RT, and now you keep acting like you won anything, lol.

Asking me which one has RT implies one does btw.

tommo1982When a GPU can render a frame fully with RT and at least 60 fps, onl then I can say it's good.

But why? You just said you tried it in Call of duty and you didn't see any difference. You didn't see any difference in those cyberpunk screenshots either. So RT is bad regardless of how many fps your card can get, why would that matter?

kapone32I love how some people use RT as a reason for market share when China and it's partners have been buying 4090 class cards by the pallet. AI is so popular that even AMD is allowing As Rock to release cards to that market that support the newest spec of PSUs. It does not matter really as the truth is that AMD cards are cheaper than Nvidia and people who get them are pleasantly surprised that the narrative does not hold water. It allows Nvidia to sell 4090s for $2500 but don't think that no one is buying AMD cards as that is just not true. I would argue that the numbers would be much closer if China was not a factor.


Don't worry he is an Nvidia supporter. Nothing you say or prove will change his mindset.

Well, even looking at installed base on the Steam Hardware Survey AMD is still doing very poorly. About 76% Nvidia and 16% AMD. In the top 30 most used cards AMD has 1 spot. What AMD is trying to do isn't going to turn everything upside down but at least they are trying. I doubt any of us would like to see AMD just blow off the gaming market.

fevgatosnow you keep acting like you won anything

I didn't win anything, I just made my point about how people can't tell what they're looking at unless it has a huge green box plastered all over it saying ON and OFF, I wouldn't know either most of the time and your average consumer would be without doubt 100% clueless.

Vya DomusI didn't win anything, I just made my point about how people can't tell what they're looking at unless it has a huge green box plastered all over it saying ON and OFF, I wouldn't know either most of the time and your average consumer would be without doubt 100% clueless.

If that was your point then why didn't you post PT vs raster? Oh, because then there would be a difference, gotcha.

So no, you didn't make your point since I figured out neither has RT even though you implied one does as a trap.

fevgatosSo no, you didn't make your point since I figured out neither has RT even though you implied one does as a trap.

No you didn't, that's just something you came up with after being pressed about it. Btw I never said neither has RT, just so you know, not that it would matter. If that was the case I'd imagine you should have been able to tell from the get go, which you didn't. There is no way out of this without admitting that it's not obvious at all when games have RT effects.

Vya DomusNo you didn't, that's just something you came up with after being pressed about it. Btw I never said neither has RT, just so you know, not that it would matter. If that was the case I'd imagine you should have been able to tell from the get go, which you didn't. There is no way out of this without admitting that it's not obvious at all when games have RT effects.

Yes, I admit, it's not obvious to tell which image has RT when neither do.

So are you saying one of those images has RT? What is the point of not saying now that I gave you my answer, lol.

It's so obvious that you were wrong and having no RT / PT makes a huge difference, that's how I was able to tell. If your point was to show otherwise then you would actually have PT in one of those images :D :D :D

fevgatosBut that's the thing, for how many games does someone upgrade his gpu? Saying it's only 10 games completely misses the point. Id argue it's only 5 games that you are missing out for not playing with RT, but 5 games are enough to make someone upgrade his card.

For example only 2 of those games last for more than 200 hours (Witcher 3 and cyberpunk).

Well, perhaps age or general maturity in terms of knowledge and purchases over time is also a factor. On the one hand, I totally get you. I was at a point some years ago where every new graphical/visual upgrade was like a new world opening up to me and while gaming it actually felt that way too. From extended draw distance in WoW or Elder Scrolls Online (modding) to Crysis 1-3's graphical fidelity with volumetric clouds and all. And then there is a point where it starts to matter a whole lot less, because you realise underneath the visual sauce the same games are just being rehashed in front of your eyes. To me, mechanics/ conceptual game designs that are extremely well thought out win the day now and I can look back at a long history of graphical upgrades that eventually really didnt offer me 'more game' or 'more immersion'.

Its like alcohol or drugs. Your first high/trip is the best one, and all that comes after is just trying to achieve that same sense of 'wow' ; might occasionally, briefly, even achieve it but it will never truly beat that first experience. The edge is off and it wont come back. Addicts try to keep finding it nonetheless and lose themselves in their search. There is more to life though ;)

If I place that lens on RT, for myself, I just see yet another incremental, small improvement to graphics that never changes, makes or breaks the game underneath. Not worth chasing the drugs dealer for. Ill just enjoy a sunny afternoon with a two dollar craft beer instead and avoid the hangover. Because in the end that drugs dealer is the synonym for a commercial push so you can make another guy rich. He isnt doing it to make you feel better. Thats something you can only achieve yourself and doesnt require money.

fevgatosSo are you saying one of those images has RT?

See, you're still confused about it, that's the point.

If I'd shown you two images where in one the game is missing all of it's shading and then asked you "hey which has global illumination and which doesn't", my question would be pretty redundant because it's obvious the shading is missing in one of them, it's not obvious when RT missing. Some graphical effects are very obvious to the end user and some aren't, ray tracing falls in the latter category.

Vayra86Well, perhaps age or general maturity in terms of knowledge and purchases over time is also a factor. On the one hand, I totally get you. I was at a point some years ago where every new graphical/visual upgrade was like a new world opening up to me and while gaming it actually felt that way too. From extended draw distance in WoW or Elder Scrolls Online (modding) to Crysis 1-3's graphical fidelity with volumetric clouds and all. And then there is a point where it starts to matter a whole lot less, because you realise underneath the visual sauce the same games are just being rehashed in front of your eyes. To me, mechanics/ conceptual game designs that are extremely well thought out win the day now and I can look back at a long history of graphical upgrades that eventually really didnt offer me 'more game' or 'more immersion'.

Its like alcohol or drugs. Your first high/trip is the best one, and all that comes after is just trying to achieve that same sense of 'wow' ; might occasionally, briefly, even achieve it but it will never truly beat that first experience. The edge is off and it wont come back. Addicts try to keep finding it nonetheless and lose themselves in their search. There is more to life though ;)

If I place that lens on RT, for myself, I just see yet another incremental, small improvement to graphics that never changes, makes or breaks the game underneath. Not worth chasing the drugs dealer for. Ill just enjoy a sunny afternoon with a two dollar craft beer instead and avoid the hangover. Because in the end that drugs dealer is the synonym for a commercial push so you can make another guy rich. He isnt doing it to make you feel better. Thats something you can only achieve yourself and doesnt require money.

Well graphics do matter. Not for all games, but there are games that live or die by their graphical presentation. RDR2 / Cyberpunk / Witcher 3, I feel like they wouldn't be what they are (for me at least) if they weren't top notch in the graphics department as well.

I also don't feel like your analogy is representing reality cause as of right now at least, it doesn't really cost more to go for the card with RT. That's the whole point. Also shouldn't your argument apply to upscaling as well? Cause you can't at the same time be against upscaling (cause it looks worse than native according to you) and on the other hand feel like graphics don't matter that much and so RT is kinda pointless.

I just don't get the sentiment around here (you can see it the last few pages) that everyone assumes that we buy nvidia cause fanboy or whatever. Every single person with a 4090, what card do you think they'd have if AMD made the fastest GPU's? Cause I can assure you, all of them would be rocking the AMD card.

Vya DomusSee, you're still confused about it, that's the point.

If I'd shown you two images where in one the game is missing all of it's shading and then asked you "hey which has global illumination and which doesn't", my question would be pretty redundant because it's obvious the shading is missing in one of them. Some graphical effects are very obvious to the end user and some aren't, ray tracing falls in the latter category.

Im not confused, I just trust that you are not lying again (for the 2nd time) so I assume that when you say that one of them has RT you do mean it. Again, if I'd have to bet money i'd say neither do have RT, RT makes such a huge difference that i'd be able to tell if it's on. And you agree with the fact that anyone would be able to tell - that's why you posted 2 images with no RT, lol.

You are basically trying to convince me how bad smoking is by posting 2 lung CT scans of non smokers. You get the problem, right?

@Vya Domus @fevgatos It is about time to stop the trollfest. It isn't fun anymore, and we are tired of your endless arguing, without proper explanation and revealing what is what.

fevgatosWell graphics do matter. Not for all games, but there are games that live or die by their graphical presentation. RDR2 / Cyberpunk / Witcher 3, I feel like they wouldn't be what they are (for me at least) if they weren't top notch in the graphics department as well.

I also don't feel like your analogy is representing reality cause as of right now at least, it doesn't really cost more to go for the card with RT. That's the whole point. Also shouldn't your argument apply to upscaling as well? Cause you can't at the same time be against upscaling (cause it looks worse than native according to you) and on the other hand feel like graphics don't matter that much and so RT is kinda pointless.


Im not confused, I just trust that you are not lying again (for the 2nd time) so I assume that when you say that one of them has RT you do mean it. Again, if I'd have to bet money i'd say neither do have RT, RT makes such a huge difference that i'd be able to tell if it's on. And you agree with the fact that anyone would be able to tell - that's why you posted 2 images with no RT, lol.

Its just not relevant anymore. Its as simple as that. I find myself enjoying games like Vampire Survivor (old school graphics, fantastic mechanics and progression paths) on Deck relaxing in the sun so much more than having top notch graphics but being forced to sit behind a PC with kb/mouse and shitloads of gpu grunt.

At the same time sure, I spent 100+ hours in Cyberpunk too but two thirds of that was without RT on a 1080 and the game isnt better in the last 33 hours with RT on a 7900XT. Graphics upgrade notwithstanding, the game underneath was already 'done' in the first two thirds of that time; even with better graphics I still focused on finding more 'game' within it but its still the same shooter in a halfway finished open world.

Nvidias RT push hasnt brought a single game further in terms of gameplay.

Vayra86Its just not relevant anymore. Its as simple as that. I find myself enjoying games like Vampire Survivor (old school graphics, fantastic mechanics and progression paths) on Deck relaxing in the sun so much more than having top notch graphics but being forced to sit behind a PC with kb/mouse and shitloads of gpu grunt.

Doing the same on the switch :)

fevgatosRT makes such a huge difference that i'd be able to tell if it's on.

It makes such a huge difference that you only said this as a last resort of not wanting to answer the initial question. You only say this as a way out, not because you actually know that as a fact. You're free to explain what is the dead give away in those screenshot that there is no RT, I am all ears.

If this was so obvious it would have been the first thing you'd have said, so let's put this to rest dude and admit that it's not obvious.

64KWell, even looking at installed base on the Steam Hardware Survey AMD is still doing very poorly. About 76% Nvidia and 16% AMD. In the top 30 most used cards AMD has 1 spot. What AMD is trying to do isn't going to turn everything upside down but at least they are trying. I doubt any of us would like to see AMD just blow off the gaming market.

I would counter that with Gamepass. I am sure there are Gaming PCs out there that just have Gamepass and don't even worry about Steam. It does not matter to me though as the narrative likes to paint the 7900XTX/XT as failures but the latest AS rock 7000 series review showed that they are much faster than 6000 and that is all that matters to some like me. The extra VRAM is nice too. Combine that with Freesync on a Mini LED with HDR (when it works Windows) @ 4K resolution and RT is a memory. So yes I like the models in LMU but also the colours in Orcs Must Die 3 or the weather effects in AMS2. I also feel that the success of the handhelds will do AMD good in the GPU space in about 4-5 years as those are filling the vacuum that budget cards and laptops left for the young. So there will be plenty of mind share to help AMD.

Vya DomusIt makes such a huge difference that you only said this as a last resort of not wanting to answer the initial question. You only say this as a way out, not because you actually know that as a fact. You're free to explain what is the dead give away in those screenshot that there is no RT, I am all ears.

If this was so obvious it would have been the first thing you'd have said, so let's put this to rest dude and admit that it's not obvious.

Again, if it wasn't obvious then you'd post images with RT, simple as that :D

fevgatosWell graphics do matter. Not for all games, but there are games that live or die by their graphical presentation. RDR2 / Cyberpunk / Witcher 3, I feel like they wouldn't be what they are (for me at least) if they weren't top notch in the graphics department as well.

I also don't feel like your analogy is representing reality cause as of right now at least, it doesn't really cost more to go for the card with RT. That's the whole point. Also shouldn't your argument apply to upscaling as well? Cause you can't at the same time be against upscaling (cause it looks worse than native according to you) and on the other hand feel like graphics don't matter that much and so RT is kinda pointless.

I just don't get the sentiment around here (you can see it the last few pages) that everyone assumes that we buy nvidia cause fanboy or whatever. Every single person with a 4090, what card do you think they'd have if AMD made the fastest GPU's? Cause I can assure you, all of them would be rocking the AMD card.

Im not confused, I just trust that you are not lying again (for the 2nd time) so I assume that when you say that one of them has RT you do mean it. Again, if I'd have to bet money i'd say neither do have RT, RT makes such a huge difference that i'd be able to tell if it's on. And you agree with the fact that anyone would be able to tell - that's why you posted 2 images with no RT, lol.

You are basically trying to convince me how bad smoking is by posting 2 lung CT scans of non smokers. You get the problem, right?

I have never seen a left or right question become so twisted in knots.

really weird back and forths here, if you want to know what RT has to offer, watch some Digital Foundry videos, hell watch the recent one about the Forza "mod".

kapone32I have never seen a left or right question become so twisted in knots.

My answer is pretty clear, neither has RT. What more do you want me to say? How is that confusing for you?

Vayra86Nvidias RT push hasnt brought a single game further in terms of gameplay.

Neither has AMD's raster push. I mean that's not what graphics are supposed to do so yeah, makes sense.

fevgatosAgain, if it wasn't obvious then you'd post images with RT

And again, if it was obvious and they didn't have RT that would have been your first and immediate answer.

Because it's obvious, right ? You do know what "obvious" means, correct ? If it takes you 2-3 tries and even then you have no reasoning behind your conclusion, except that it's just a hunch, then it's not very obvious, now is it ?

Vya DomusAnd again, if it was obvious and they didn't have RT that would have been your first and immediate answer.

Because it's obvious, right ? You do know what "obvious" means, correct ? If it takes you 2-3 tries and even then you have no reasoning behind your conclusion, except that it's just a hunch, then it's not very obvious, now is it ?

But my first and immediate answer was that I can't tell the difference. Post #124.

Turns out I can't tell the difference because there isn't any, neither has RT. Why do you keep at it? You tried to trick me by implying one has RT and it failed cause RT is so obvious, even at your low quality image anyone would be able to tell. That's exactly why you didn't post the one that has RT. If there was no difference then you'd post the PT one, but you didn't, cause there is. Period. I ain't coming back to that, go have the last word.