hmmm smart move, but what do PCB layers do anyways?

How much will that reduction be anyway? The cheapest 8800 GT 512MB in my location is ~$230, EVGA brand, reference speeds. I'm not sure that would go down anything below $210.

does this mean that they will be using cheaper parts? (capacitors, resistors etc) it would totally suck if they also did that. graphic cards aswell as many other hi-performance products should be made with the best resources available.

on a side note....

Today i am ditching my ATi X1800XT 512mb for a monster of a 8800GTS G92 512Mb!!!! :nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::nutkick::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast:

my first ever NON ATi card. i am proud

more layers allow more complex designs, and more power. I assume its because the GT uses more complex PCB designs (such as the same as teh GTS), but since the GT doesnt need as complex power (no VRM's for example) they can drop it down to reduce costs.

$10 saving per card at manuf end, could equal upto $50 (USD) off at consumer end.

I'm totally opposed to hardware manufacturers cutting-down prices at the cost of quality. I don't want something that fails in a couple of years.

Muzz: Really? would we see a $50 cut??

I'd be fine with one (1) layer, if it would mean that there where plenty of 8800GT:s to shop from :( Most cards are still out of stock here and no estimations on when they are coming. I'm starting to get annoyed :\ Cheapest available is 249€/365$ and I'm not paying that, waiting for Club3D or Palit Sonic cards to appear ~220€/323$. Newegg seems to have stock for 269$, so at least it is slowly closing in on the 250$ MSRP.

Oh and doesn't less layers make the card run a bit hotter? Maybe less of an overclocker as well. Wasn't there an issue with 4 layer mobos compared to 6 layer ones just in news. Something about phenom compability.

btarunrI'm totally opposed to hardware manufacturers cutting-down prices at the cost of quality. I don't want something that fails in a couple of years.

Muzz: Really? would we see a $50 cut??

COULD, not would. If they manage to simplify the board a lot (remember, they are using an older, more complex board than needed. think of it as wasted space) the prices would drop.

$10 at manufacturer means its cheaper to bulk order, suppliers have it cheaper meaning stores get it a bit cheaper, which means the consumer gets it cheaper.

how much, who knows - but if NV didnt think it would make the card more competitive, why would they bother?

P.S they arent skimping on teh cooler here, so please stop posting about how the cards are going to fail quicker. there is no evidence of that.

btarunrHow much will that reduction be anyway? The cheapest 8800 GT 512MB in my location is ~$230, EVGA brand, reference speeds. I'm not sure that would go down anything below $210.

Reduction in layers = reduction in quality, cards are easier to damage, cards can take less voltage. Not a smart move at all in my opinion as 8800GTs are very good in terms of bang for buck. However if Nvidia are doing this to compete with the HD3870, we might see them in court very soon. They should have a good think about it, if the 8800GT has less layers, we'll probably see a VERY high faliure rate...

tkpenaltyReduction in layers = reduction in quality, cards are easier to damage, cards can take less voltage. Not a smart move at all in my opinion as 8800GTs are very good in terms of bang for buck. However if Nvidia are doing this to compete with the HD3870, we might see them in court very soon. They should have a good think about it, if the 8800GT has less layers, we'll probably see a VERY high faliure rate...

The thing is, the 8800GT uses the same PCB as the GTS. the GTS is a little longer, and has more power circuitry - how much of that goes unused on the GT?

If they're only removing wasted space, how it is going to affect quality?

(i AM saying if. I/we dont know for sure)

Guess it's going to be something like the Radeon HD2600XT that comes in two reference PCB's the longer one mostly used by the viriants featuring DDR4, the shorter ones using D3.

How could this PCB shift affect OC'ing anyway?

I think it is a smart move by nVidia. The 8800GT just isn't priced competitively. They are only about $60 less than the GTS, which IMO isn't low enough to be considered.

tkpenaltyReduction in layers = reduction in quality, cards are easier to damage, cards can take less voltage. Not a smart move at all in my opinion as 8800GTs are very good in terms of bang for buck. However if Nvidia are doing this to compete with the HD3870, we might see them in court very soon. They should have a good think about it, if the 8800GT has less layers, we'll probably see a VERY high faliure rate...

No it doesn't equal reduced quality. If they layers are going unused then taking them out isn't affecting anything. I don't know where you are getting that they are easier to damage, it isn't like taking layers out makes the PCB thinner, it doesn't work that way, so they won't be any easier to damage. Yes, they cards won't be able to take as much voltage, but how many people does that really affect? The less than 1% of people that volt-mod their cards? I don't really think that percentage is worth having a product on the market that can't compete with the majority of consumers.

You argument is the equivelant of say the HD3850 is lower quality than the HD3870. It just doesn't work. Yes, the HD3850 are lower end cards, but the production quality is the same.

btarunr: the radeon 2600XT with DDR4 is longer to accommodate the more complex circuitry. afaik, it has the same pcb layers, and only differs in length. this is different from what nvidia is trying to do, and thats putting the toll on its partners. asking the partners to cut the pcb and save some $$ for themselves, while nvidia sell the chips for the same price AND trying to achieve better price-performance ratio is egoistic and nasty imo. you want to price your card more competitively? sell your chips for less! and don't ask your partners to create lower-grade parts :mad:

Read the post from Newtekie. Lesser PCB layers doesn't ness' mean inferior components. The whole thing is just about shedding unused PCB layer that won't affect performance or quality....just that it could affect a minority of consumers who are into v-modding. This is an easier method of cutting costs to make the product inviting for buyers, something that'd benefit both board vendors and NVidia as well, than NV making cheap GPUs at the compromise of quality...for NV to do that either they have to shrink their fab process or lease contract to more fab-partners. NV is a fabless semiconductor company.

the only reason the 8800gt was prematurely rushed into existence (at the price it was) was to torpedo the 3800 ati launch..

ati have nvidia worried.. they dont like having to lower their rip-off prices in essence.. so they are trying to claw some profit back..

ati are leading nvidia are reacting..

trog

Yep. I buy your word entirely, Trog.

I was amazed at so many people taking a 3850 this Christmas it almost nullified 8800GT presence. 8800GT was out of stock in many places...so no point either. :laugh:

trog100the only reason the 8800gt was prematurely rushed into existence (at the price it was) was to torpedo the 3800 ati launch..

ati have nvidia worried.. they dont like having to lower their rip-off prices in essence.. so they are trying to claw some profit back..

ati are leading nvidia are reacting..

trog

oh please. ATI arent leading in anything but price at the moment. the 8800GT isnt premature at all, and apart from the fact it runs hot on the stock cooler they are damned awesome cards, at great prices. (i have seen them around $350 here in aus already, compared to the $500 for the original 8800GTS)

They aren't even really leading in price. i can get a brand new 8800GT 512MB from a reputable e-tailer for $250, $200 for the 256MB, the cheapest HD3870 I can find is $240. $10 isn't really that big of a lead, especially when it performs slightly worse.

true, but try finding something competitive below the 8800GT... 8600 vs 2600xt anyone? bleh.

Meh, the mid-range and low end cards in both camps are complete ass anyways.

malwarebringing the market shares of NVIDIA and AMD from 90% and 10%, originally, to 70% and 30%.

really? get it ATI.


and any reduction in cost is going to be good for the consumer unless they use cheaper crappier parts.

No, NVIDIA, No! :cry: Their engineers must have a lot of confidence that lowering the amount of layers on the PCB will not introduce further cross-talk interference...I for one would NOT want one of these handicapped 8800GT's, that's for damn sure! :mad:

Well, it is good to read possitive news about ATI/AMD. :) Those people that shot down ATI for giving up on the high end card and instead focusing on the more "affordable" price range might finally see the light. This also points out how competition is good for BOTH Nvidia and ATI fans.

Did ATI seriously only have a 10% market share before the 3800 series was released? I had no idea things were THAT bad for them. :eek: These new cards really helped them out a lot.

The pcb board layers is the guts of the card, the more layers the better transfer of voltages. Basically Its the same with motherboards. You see the pcchips boards with a low number of pcb layers and asus boards with alot more pcb layers. I ran into this a few years back buying a ecs motherboard at a mom and pop store. He told me the ecs had like 4 pcb layers and the asus,gigabyte and msi had like 8 layers. I bought the ecs because its all he had in stock. Lasted 8 months and died. ALLEN

Again, the number of PCB layers doesn't matter if they are only removing layers that are unused, which is the case here. The 8800GTS(G92) needs 10 layers because of the extra components on the board and the extra power needed for the core. The 8800GT doesn't need that many layers, so basically the the manufactures are just wasting money by including them. They aren't aiding the current 8800GT at all.

:laugh::roll:

I'm sorry, but it's funny to read everyones comments here and see how ignorant most of you are with regards how it all works.
It's easier to design a product that has several PCB layers and generally you don't have to worry to much about trace layout, as you can put the traces that might cross on different layers thus avoiding this problem.
Most manufacturers that do their own designs, be it of motherboards or graphics cards will change the reference PCB and thus the traces won't be the same either.
Less layers doesn't always mean an inferior product as a lot of the time it's just a sign of a more mature product where the companies have figured out how to streamline their manufacturing.
As long as the company is question has come up with an electrically sound design then there's no reason why a product using fewer PCB layers should be worse than one with more layers as long as the rest of the components are the same.
Yes, it might affect overclocking, but again, this is depedant on much more than the PCB layers.
Most motherboard reference designs are made in 8 layers but are generally reduced to 6 layers when possible. I very much doubt anyone is using less for motherboards these days as they're just far to complex.
Depening on the layout of the power circuitry on these boards it should be very possible to make a card with less PCB layers that overclocks just as well as the current models, it just takes a little bit of time and efford from the board makers.
However, the smaller companies are unlikely to want to spend the R&D resources to come up with such a design unless they really have to, as it's not done in five minutes.