v-zeroAll this says to me is that the GT200 is going to be nothing special at all...

How does this tell you that?:confused:

webwizardHere's where that came from.

en.expreview.com/

If that was a reply to my post above that wasn't what I was referring to.. I went back looking for it and found the original article(s), www.techpowerup.com/56608/NVIDIA_GeForce_9900_Series_Set_for_July_Launch?.html

AddSubPretty much. Nvidia is at this point competing against itself on almost every tier. So they have no reason to release any 32 ROP 320 SP monster parts, hence the G92 was born, a tamer, severely cut down and tightened up offspring of G80 that is cheap to produce. People jumped on these because they offered decent performance (albeit at perhaps lower resolutions with AA/AF turned a bit down vs. high end G80 parts) and they were affordable compared to previous G80 parts. People who couldn't budget a G80 product finally had something they could pick up without having to sell their kidneys.

As for the next series, I don't know. From what I've been reading on Expreview, NordicHardware, and other places, it seems like it will be a even further tweaked G92, only with a die shrink (55nm?) which will allow it even higher clocks but the rest will remain the same (paltry 16 ROP's, 256-bit memory bus) which will quite probably be counter-balanced by higher clocks (again, thanks to even smaller process) and use of super-clocked GDDR4/5 VRAM, but nothing revolutionary.

It really depends on what AMD puts on the shelves this summer. Why release anything serious when the competition (AMD) is having trouble on every level. A struggling competitor is better than a bankrupt competitor, from a business perspective anyways. nVidia was one of the most profitable corporations last year and was designated by Forbes as "Company of the Year" for 2007. With AMD in such condition, I don't seen any reason they would change their tactics.

I wouldn't be too quick to write off ATI as a competitor. Remember the rumors that the original g92 cards were pushed being pushed out early as a first strike vs. ATI's new 38x0 cards? Given the shortage at the time and the recent reiterations of the chip those rumors probably held truth.

Then there was the 3870 X2 which took the performance crown and Nvidia pushed out the 9800 GX2. Now these new cards are supposed to come out the same time as ATI's 4000 series. There shouldn't be any doubt that there's still competition here since Nv is clearly reacting (pretty successfully - though they are catching flak for putting out so many cards and their naming schemes) to ATIs movements.

brian.caIf that was a reply to my post above that wasn't what I was referring to.. I went back looking for it and found the original article(s), www.techpowerup.com/56608/NVIDIA_GeForce_9900_Series_Set_for_July_Launch?.html



I wouldn't be too quick to write off ATI as a competitor. Remember the rumors that the original g92 cards were pushed being pushed out early as a first strike vs. ATI's new 38x0 cards? Given the shortage at the time and the recent reiterations of the chip those rumors probably held truth.

Then there was the 3870 X2 which took the performance crown and Nvidia pushed out the 9800 GX2. Now these new cards are supposed to come out the same time as ATI's 4000 series. There shouldn't be any doubt that there's still competition here since Nv is clearly reacting (pretty successfully - though they are catching flak for putting out so many cards and their naming schemes) to ATIs movements.

The biggest tactic I've noticed nVidia use - which, IMO, is a big cause behind their hardware supply shortages - is they love to flood the market with new cards in one shot. All their licensed manufacturers all release the same card on the same day. Problem being, is because for all their licensed brands to meet that release date, there now has to be x number of GPUs manufactured by date n for everything to go well. But, when x-y GPUs are produced, we see a shortage in the supply . . . even moreso if the demand is high.

ATI's model, which they've been following for quite some time, is, IMO what has helped them keep their supply up to exceed demand. They stagger their licensed brands out, so not everyone is releasing new hardware on the same day; typically it's about a week apart. Top-tier release first, followed by mid-tier and the bottom-tier; and usually following that is the top-tier "variations" . . . the specialty cards.

But, what really buggars nVidia even more, is the fact that anytime they make a miniscule change to the hardware, they want to release it as another card line within the same series, which is why we see the likes of 8800 GS, 8800 GT, 8800 GTS, 8800 GTX - and then you have the mid-range and lower cards from the same series, the 8300, 8500, 8600, + all their suffix laden varieties as well. To the average consumer, the choices can be extremelly confusing, because to them, there doesn't appear to be that much of a difference between card models, so they just buy something.

Brute force tactics are, IMO, a defining trait of nVidia.

I can honestly see the card being discontinued. all it is, is an 8800GTS G92, only 2 gpus on one card... and box of a cooler.. same with the 9800GTX..

btarunrIt's somewhat different with IT. For example, the moment a version of Microsoft Windows hits EOL, they discontinue updates/hotfixes/patches to it, and also stop production/sales.

ms eol's stuff weird,(eol for distrobution) then they give a few years of support after that, i know 2k still gets critical updates for IE and such......

That's because IE is now treated as a product seperate from Windows. IE 6 has to be supported for longer irrespective of which OS it runs on. Can you run IE 7 on Win 2K ? If not, then IE 6 should get its security patches.

I wouldnt say too much about AMD having trouble in every aspect, as the HD3 line are selling well, from low to top, the only Reason Nvidia released another 2x GPU card was due to fact ATI having one out on market before them.

AddSubPretty much. Nvidia is at this point competing against itself on almost every tier. So they have no reason to release any 32 ROP 320 SP monster parts, hence the G92 was born, a tamer, severely cut down and tightened up offspring of G80 that is cheap to produce. People jumped on these because they offered decent performance (albeit at perhaps lower resolutions with AA/AF turned a bit down vs. high end G80 parts) and they were affordable compared to previous G80 parts. People who couldn't budget a G80 product finally had something they could pick up without having to sell their kidneys.

As for the next series, I don't know. From what I've been reading on Expreview, NordicHardware, and other places, it seems like it will be a even further tweaked G92, only with a die shrink (55nm?) which will allow it even higher clocks but the rest will remain the same (paltry 16 ROP's, 256-bit memory bus) which will quite probably be counter-balanced by higher clocks (again, thanks to even smaller process) and use of super-clocked GDDR4/5 VRAM, but nothing revolutionary.

It really depends on what AMD puts on the shelves this summer. Why release anything serious when the competition (AMD) is having trouble on every level. A struggling competitor is better than a bankrupt competitor, from a business perspective anyways. nVidia was one of the most profitable corporations last year and was designated by Forbes as "Company of the Year" for 2007. With AMD in such condition, I don't seen any reason they would change their tactics.

nVidia is treading a thin line here. After all the naming schemes, such as someone buying a 9500 and then finding out its really a 8600, just renemaed. Now if this is true, this isnt good from nVidia. Theyre flooding too much, too fast, mixing all thier naming schemes up, and having way too short eols. Im hoping for both nVidia and ATI to actually put out a new arch, one that has a real life span, has real world improvements in both fps and eye candy, and are worthy of a new naming scheme

imperialreignBut, what really buggars nVidia even more, is the fact that anytime they make a miniscule change to the hardware, they want to release it as another card line within the same series, which is why we see the likes of 8800 GS, 8800 GT, 8800 GTS, 8800 GTX - and then you have the mid-range and lower cards from the same series, the 8300, 8500, 8600, + all their suffix laden varieties as well. To the average consumer, the choices can be extremelly confusing, because to them, there doesn't appear to be that much of a difference between card models, so they just buy something.

Brute force tactics are, IMO, a defining trait of nVidia.

Sometimes I feel like the only one with some memory, although memory it's not really needed when you have wikipedia at hand:

Nvidia 6 series:

6200, 6200 TC2, 6500, 6600 LE, 6600, 6600 GT, 6600 XL, 6800 LE, 6800 XT, 6800, 6800 GTO, 6800 GS, 6800 GT, 6800 Ultra.

Total: 14 cards.

Ati 10 series:

X300 SE, X300, X550 SE, X550, X600 Pro, AIW X600 Pro, X600 XT, X700, X700 Pro, X700 XT, X800 SE, X800 GT128, X800 GT 256, X800 GTO, X800, X800 GTO2, X800 GTO-16, X800 Pro, X800 Pro VIVO, X800 XL, AIW X800 XL, X800 XT, X800 XT VIVO, AIW X800 XT, X800 XT PE, X850 Pro, X850 XT, X850 XT PE.

Total: 28 cards.

Let's see the next generation.

Nvidia 7 series:

7100 GS, 7200 GS, 7300 SE, 7300 LE, 7300 GS, 7300 GT, 7600 GS, 7600 GT, 7600 GT Rev 2, 7800 GS, 7800 GT, 7800 GTX, 7800 GTX 512, 7900 GS, 7900 GT, 7900 GTO, 7900 GTX, 7950 GT, 7950 GX2.

Total: 19 cards.

Ati 11 series:

X1300, X1300 Pro, X1300 XT, X1550 SE, X1550, X1600 Pro, X1600 XT, X1650, X1650 Pro, X1650 GT, X1650 XT, X1800 GTO, X1800 GTO Rev. 2, X1800 XL, AIW X1800 XL, X1800 XT, X1900 GT, X1900 GT Rev. 2, AIW X1900, X1900 CrossFire, X1900 XT, X1900 XTX, X1950 GT, X1950 Pro, X1950 XT, X1950 XTX.

Total: 26 cards.

Nvidia 8 series:

8400 GS, 8500 GT, 8600 GT, 8600 GTS, 8800 GS, 8800 GTS G80, 8800 GT, 8800 GTS G92, 8800 GTX, 8800Ultra.

Total: 10 cards.

But let's add OEM and 9 series since it's based on the same chip (though I could do the same in the above lists and add quite some more).

8600 GS, 9500 GT, 9600 GT, 9800 GT (GTS? Is this one even going to be launched?), 9800 GTX, 9800 GX2

Total: 16 cards.

I could go with Ati series 9 vs. Nvidia series 5 too, but I think I have proven my point with this... (Huh! I didn't make any point? Guess it. lol)

That's what happens when you are in the lead with a strong architecture that can scale well.
And TBH I don't think that's bad, actually I think it's good for the consumer, because you have many cards at different price points with small differences in performance. You can spend as much as you want and you'll get the performance accordingly, you don't have to settle for a slow card (slower than what you want) or spend big $ for a card that is more than what you need. Cough* HD series *cough.

Im no fanboy. I was wondering, is a 8800GS worse than all the GTS's?

evil billAs has been said already, its not that this suddenly makes the 9800GX2 a bad card, but rather that driver support and game profiles for it will dry up, meaning potentially the card does not get recognised for what it is.

Apparently you didn't read above. Drivers will not necessarily lose support. With the amount of drivers that they dish out nearly every week, and how new or current the GX2 would be, they'd have to abruptly and completely drop support in order for owners to be significantly affected.

You don't have any proof of that, and I don't remember them doing it in the past..so where you getting your information?

jaydeejohnIm no fanboy. I was wondering, is a 8800GS worse than all the GTS's?

Yes The GS in simple terms is like a crippled GT (less shaders (96 vs 112) and lower memory interface (192bit vs 256bit). It is however still a good card and performs around the same as a 512mb HD3850 in most games (although its lack of memory can become a problem in certain titles once you up the resolution / AA/AF settings)

Performance wise it would go:

GTS 512mb > GT > GS

jaydeejohnIm no fanboy. I was wondering, is a 8800GS worse than all the GTS's?

I think it's definately faster than 8800 GTS 320. And also GTS 640 when AA is disabled. Because of it's 192 bit memory interface, ROP count (12) and frame buffer (384 MB), the GS was never designed to run on high resolutions or AA levels, but it seems it handles AF pretty well. The GS is fast when AA is disabled and you don't go as high as 1920x1200. At let's say 1680x1050 0x AA 16x AF it's faster than 8800 GTS 640, HD2900 XT and HD3870 on most games. But if you are going to ever use higher settings, I wouldn't recomend the card. Overall HD3870 or 9600 GT are better deals. None of the aforementioned are worth for an upgrade over a GTS 640 though.

jaydeejohnIm no fanboy. I was wondering, is a 8800GS worse than all the GTS's?

The GS is the bottom line 8800 series and is slightly faster than ATI's 3850. The 8800 GS is slower than the 3870, in fact the ATI 3870 is equivalent in to Nvidia's 9600 GT. Technically in order it should be GS, GT, and then GTS. However on later card's the GT models are proving equivalent or faster than the GTS models. But to answer your question to completion both the GT and GTS models are faster than the GS.

DarkMatter,

You missed X1950 Crossfire :p

brian.caIf that was a reply to my post above that wasn't what I was referring to.. I went back looking for it and found the original article(s), www.techpowerup.com/56608/NVIDIA_GeForce_9900_Series_Set_for_July_Launch?.html


Then there was the 3870 X2 which took the performance crown and Nvidia pushed out the 9800 GX2. Now these new cards are supposed to come out the same time as ATI's 4000 series. There shouldn't be any doubt that there's still competition here since Nv is clearly reacting (pretty successfully - though they are catching flak for putting out so many cards and their naming schemes) to ATIs movements.

I beleive in the case of the GX2, it was estimated to be released in March as far back as late October 2007 before the 3870x2's released date was officially conveyed to us consumers, I dont think the GX2 was ever intended to be a deliberate and direct competitor for the HD4000 series, I think that the 9900's were always supposed to be that.......I might be wrong there but the very reason whay some of us say the G92 was a "stopgap" was because the GT200 or whatever it's called was going to have the greatest architectural/performance development....as I said, just my thoughts, not necessarily fact.

if ATI brings back the R200 to compete with the GT200, Nvidia wins by default

btarunrIt's somewhat different with IT. For example, the moment a version of Microsoft Windows hits EOL, they discontinue updates/hotfixes/patches to it, and also stop production/sales.

Wait, since when has EOL meant support stopped? Even in Windows, EOL didn't mean support stopped, it just meant production and sales stopped.

Just look at Windows 98, Microsoft EOL'd it in 2004, but continued support into 2006. EOL does not mean support for the product ends, it just means the product isn't being produced anymore.

The 7 series cards have long been EOL'd, and they still get driver updates and support.

newtekie1Wait, since when has EOL meant support stopped? Even in Windows, EOL didn't mean support stopped, it just meant production and sales stopped.

Just look at Windows 98, Microsoft EOL'd it in 2004, but continued support into 2006. EOL does not mean support for the product ends, it just means the product isn't being produced anymore.

The 7 series cards have long been EOL'd, and they still get driver updates and support.

bt what abot the 7 series gx2?

[I.R.A]_FBibt what abot the 7 series gx2?

What about it, just because driver support for the 7 series GX2 "died" around the time the card was EOL'd that doesn't mean it is always the case. It wasn't even the case with the 7 series GX2. It is still supported in the latest drivers for the 7 series, 174.74 supports the 7950 GX2.

+1 to newtekie1

My Auzentech X-Meridian sound card reached EOL last year, I'm still getting driver support, the latest driver release was a few weeks ago. I bet creative dont treat their customers this well:)

[I.R.A]_FBicustomers? what customers .. yo mean the ppl they fleece?

Agreed! I used to be a big Creative fan boy a few years back, I didn't mind paying three times the cost just for EAX support until I started researching home cinema systems and read a lot of forums with pissed off customers complaining because Creative told customers they could get Dolby encoding on the fly over SPDIF. They actually used to market their cards as Dolby authentic product with stickers and logo's claiming of it's encoding abilities. Ever since then I lost all respect for creative and decided to hold onto my Hercules Muse 5.1 until I could afford a good non-creative card. That's when Auzentech became :respect:

Darren+1 to newtekie1

My Auzentech X-Meridian sound card reached EOL last year, I'm still getting driver support, the latest driver release was a few weeks ago. I bet creative dont treat their customers this well:)

customers? what customers .. yo mean the ppl they fleece?

newtekie1Wait, since when has EOL meant support stopped? Even in Windows, EOL didn't mean support stopped, it just meant production and sales stopped.

Just look at Windows 98, Microsoft EOL'd it in 2004, but continued support into 2006. EOL does not mean support for the product ends, it just means the product isn't being produced anymore.

The 7 series cards have long been EOL'd, and they still get driver updates and support.

lol

NV34, NV44, and G72 are not EOL yet.

candle_86lol

NV34, NV44, and G72 are not EOL yet.

What does that have to do with anything?

G70(7800GT/GTX), G71(7900GS/GT/GTX/GX2, 7950GT/GX2), and G73(7300GT, 7600GS, 7600GT) are all EOL, and still supported.

just making a point here. Also i find it rather funny NV34 isnt EOL yet the newest drivers dont work with the FX line of cards lol.

But always Remeber that the FX, 6, and 7 line are not dead as these cards are still being made

GeforceFX 5200, GeForceFX 5500, GeForce 6200TC, Geforce 7300LE.