newtekie1Oh, I know plenty about marketing, and an ideal consumer is dumber than a box of rocks, but that doesn't mean that the majority of consumers actually are dumb.

And it isn't the Marketting Department's job to hold their hand, it is the marketting department's job to tug on their hand. Those are two very different concepts.

Holding their hand means giving them all the possible information they can to allow the consumer to make an educated decision.

Tugging their hand means taking a turd and making the consumer believe it is the greatest thing ever.

This is why it is the consumers responsibility to educate themselves, not the companies.

Here look at it this way. Ill use my favorite car the Mustang.

Reality: Mustang=V6, Mustang GT=300hp and Mustang GT500=500hp

Nvidia: Mustang=500hp, Mustang GT=V6 and Mustang GT500=300hp

Now you can blame the customer for not reading the latest motor trend magazine but the branding is no ones fault but the marketing departments.

I know this isn't the best source but it seems like nvidia may be cutting reviewers out of the gts 250 unless they give it a very positive review. It's a few days old so most of you have probably read it anyways.
www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/123/1051123/nvidia-cuts-reviewers-gts250

What I don't understand is that 9800 GTX+ used to be considered 'high end' performance. But because its older they slotted it in as a GTS or more mainstream performance type card. Does that mean when their current line stops being top of the line they will also get renamed to GTS? Will a GTX 260 become a GTS 260? If no then why did the 9800 GTX earn a GTS title? Technically its top of the line a generation ago. Is it a one time deal for this being named into their mainstream line because it was the only place it'd fit? This is the kind of bull**** I really hope they clear up.

El FiendoWhat I don't understand is that 9800 GTX+ used to be considered 'high end' performance. But because its older they slotted it in as a GTS or more mainstream performance type card. Does that mean when their current line stops being top of the line they will also get renamed to GTS? Will a GTX 260 become a GTS 260? If no then why did the 9800 GTX earn a GTS title? Technically its top of the line a generation ago. Is it a one time deal for this being named into their mainstream line because it was the only place it'd fit? This is the kind of bull**** I really hope they clear up.

Essentially, yes, this is a one time deal to unify the naming scheme. I don't know how they will handle the naming as time goes on. IMO, the best way would be to just increase the numbering, and I doubt they will rename cards after this. The next generation might be named something like GTX380 and GTX360. With the midrange being the GTS350 and GTS340 and the low end being GT330 and GT320.

LOL, I think ATI/Nivida are starting to realize that they can't go much faster with video cards so they are making updated versions of older cards..it's pretty humorous.

newtekie1Essentially, yes, this is a one time deal to unify the naming scheme. I don't know how they will handle the naming as time goes on. IMO, the best way would be to just increase the numbering, and I doubt they will rename cards after this. The next generation might be named something like GTX380 and GTX360. With the midrange being the GTS350 and GTS340 and the low end being GT330 and GT320.

Dude you were just defending this stupidity with "The buyer should educate themselves" Now you agree this is stupid?!? :wtf:

newtekie1Essentially, yes, this is a one time deal to unify the naming scheme. I don't know how they will handle the naming as time goes on. IMO, the best way would be to just increase the numbering, and I doubt they will rename cards after this. The next generation might be named something like GTX380 and GTX360. With the midrange being the GTS350 and GTS340 and the low end being GT330 and GT320.

I hope so, because this renaming bit (after catching so much flak for it) has every chance to really sour me on nVidia. Only if they make it worse mind you. For example, if they decided that all current GTX 2-- Cards would become GTS 3-- cards and all GTS 2-- cards become GT 3-- cards (essentially shuffle the line down and rename the fudge out of everything). I'd start taking steroids just to have a massive roid rage attack and break things.

TheMailMan78Dude you were just defending this stupidity with "The buyer should educate themselves" Now you agree this is stupid?!? :wtf:

You have a hard time with comprehension don't you?:laugh:

When did I say it was stupid?

Here I'll explain it for you, since you seem to be having a hard time conprehending how the conversation is going:

El FiendoIs it a one time deal for this being named into their mainstream line because it was the only place it'd fit?

newtekie1Essentially, yes, this is a one time deal to unify the naming scheme.

See, when you say yes to something, and then reference what you are saying yes to, that means you are not saying you agree with the whole statement, just the part you referenced. It is a common language skill.

Oh and as for the Mustang crap, it doesn't work. There were V6 Mustangs branded as Mustang GTs up until 2009(2010 model year). The v8 and v6 were both actually available as a standard package or the GT package.(Edit: Sorry, this should be the V6 was offered in a standard or GT package, while the V8 only came in a GT package). If you knew nothing else about the card other than it was a Mustang GT Package, you would have no way of knowing if it had the 210HP V6 or the 300HP V8. Internally, the V8 was referred to as the Mustang GT and the V6 was just referred to as Mustang, but to the consumer the V6 could be a Mustang GT. Oh, and would you buy a car based on name alone, doing no research at all, and knowing nothing about it? No, the majority wouldn't, but you would...

js01I know this isn't the best source but it seems like nvidia may be cutting reviewers out of the gts 250 unless they give it a very positive review. It's a few days old so most of you have probably read it anyways.
www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/123/1051123/nvidia-cuts-reviewers-gts250

the guy that writes those articles must haev ahd his kids killed by an nvidian monster, he is so anti Nv is not funny, and wants to bear ATi's firstborn.

xRevengExLOL, I think ATI/Nivida are starting to realize that they can't go much faster with video cards so they are making updated versions of older cards..it's pretty humorous.

we haven't reached the next new GPU yet dude, they are on a 12-16 month cycle for the next top end, brand new GPU, the mid cycle involves rounding up the mid range, improving driver support and usually at least 1 refresh. not so much humorous as it is the way the gfx industry goes.

Really though how much faster can you make them? It's almost pointless..you can only make something so fast.

xRevengExLOL, I think ATI/Nivida are starting to realize that they can't go much faster with video cards so they are making updated versions of older cards..it's pretty humorous.

Well the fact that the 9800GTX+ is on par with the 4850 makes it fitting to be rebranded and have much more mature drivers instantly upon entering the market is fine by me. If AMD wasn't asleep at the wheel during the 3 series ATi, then Nvidia would have actually had to innovate. ;)

4830 was a rebrand with lower clocks and nobody complained. I like the card so I might get one to play with.

I think both companies put out strong offerings and the Processor market is finally not a one sided fist fight with Intel winning through knockout anymore thanks to the Phenom 2 being a huge jump for AMD.

xRevengExReally though how much faster can you make them? It's almost pointless..you can only make something so fast.

im not certain, GPu's keep improving in leaps and bounds. if you were to take the best GPU of Feb 09', compare it to Feb 07' then Feb 05' then Feb 03' you'll see the curve really hasn't slowed down much.

i think and hope they keep rising on such a steep incline of performance.

newtekie1You have a hard time with comprehension don't you?:laugh:

When did I say it was stupid?

Here I'll explain it for you, since you seem to be having a hard time conprehending how the conversation is going:





See, when you say yes to something, and then reference what you are saying yes to, that means you are not saying you agree with the whole statement, just the part you referenced. It is a common language skill.

Oh and as for the Mustang crap, it doesn't work. There were V6 Mustangs branded as Mustang GTs up until 2009(2010 model year). The v8 and v6 were both actually available as a standard package or the GT package.(Edit: Sorry, this should be the V6 was offered in a standard or GT package, while the V8 only came in a GT package). If you knew nothing else about the card other than it was a Mustang GT Package, you would have no way of knowing if it had the 210HP V6 or the 300HP V8. Internally, the V8 was referred to as the Mustang GT and the V6 was just referred to as Mustang, but to the consumer the V6 could be a Mustang GT. Oh, and would you buy a car based on name alone, doing no research at all, and knowing nothing about it? No, the majority wouldn't, but you would...

Ok first off you dont need to be insulting. I was questioning your statment. Not your intelligence. But thats besides the point now.

Anyway I'm glad you decided to attack me on the Mustang front as you couldn't be more wrong. The V6 was NEVER offed as a GT for 05 and up. Its only been offered as a "Sports appearance package" without the GT branding. No V6 will say "GT". It will only have duel exhaust and a few other do-dads to look more "aggressive" but no GT. Also the grill is completely different. But don't take it from me I just own a 08 GT. Go to Ford

FYI you misspelled comprehending.

TheMailMan78The V6 was NEVER offed as a GT for 05 and up. Its only been offered as a "Sports appearance package" without the GT branding. No V6 will say "GT". It will only have duel exhaust and a few other do-dads to look more "aggressive" but no GT.

QFT. Now back on topic and for crying out loud behave like adults.

Odd, I owned a V6 Mustange with GT branding, but hey, what what the person that owned one know... The only difference was the grill, but the branded was the same as the V8 GT. I could have put a V8 grill in it, and without looking at the engine, you wouldn't know it was a V6. Anyway, it doesn't matter, the car was a POS, which is why I sold it within 6 months of owning it...back on topic.

You wouldn't buy a car based on name alone, would you? So why would you buy a graphics card based on name alone? People just don't do it, and the ones that do, won't notice the difference between a rebranded card and a new one.

You are always going to have overlap between the series, and it gets even more confusing when you compare ATi and nVidia, it is the consumers responsibility to do their research before buying. It is not the companies responsibility to hold their hand.

newtekie1Odd, I owned a V6 Mustange with GT branding, but hey, what what the person that owned one know... The only difference was the grill, but the branded was the same as the V8 GT. I could have put a V8 grill in it, and without looking at the engine, you wouldn't know it was a V6. Anyway, it doesn't matter, the car was a POS, which is why I sold it within 6 months of owning it...back on topic.

You wouldn't buy a car based on name alone, would you? So why would you buy a graphics card based on name alone? People just don't do it, and the ones that do, won't notice the difference between a rebranded card and a new one.

Lots of people buy a brand and make of car on name alone. Bad example.

Anyway the Nvidia branding is misleading. Without a good amount of research you have no idea what your buying and a LOT of purchases are spur of the moment. Bad branding could lead you to the competition.

i think the naming makes current cards easyer to distinguish how they stack up compared to other cards in the series.

9/10 gfx card buyers will understand that GTX is better than GTS, and 260 is better than 250. at least i hope 9/10 have the common sense to realize those things... :ohwell:

TheMailMan78Lots of people by a brand and make of car on name alone. Bad example.

Anyway the Nvidia branding is misleading. Without a good amount of research you have no idea what your buying and a LOT of purchases are spur of the moment. Bad branding could lead you to the competition.

Lots, but not the majority. And I call the ones that do idiots.

Without research with any electronics(or most any product for that matter), you don't know what you are buying. And the competitions branding isn't any better in terms of telling you what performs better than what, assuming you go by name alone that is.:laugh:

newtekie1You are always going to have overlap between the series, and it gets even more confusing when you compare ATi and nVidia, it is the consumers responsibility to do their research before buying. It is not the companies responsibility to hold their hand.

No thats the marketing departments job.

newtekie1Lots, but not the majority. And I call the ones that do idiots.

Without research with any electronics(or most any product for that matter), you don't know what you are buying. And the competitions branding isn't any better in terms of telling you what performs better than what, assuming you go by name alone that is.:laugh:

No ATI went through the same thing a while back but they have been consistent with the branding since. 2000 to 3000 to 4000 series with 50s and 70s to mark the mid & high tier. I'm not trashing Nvidias product. I'm trashing its branding. We will have to agree to disagree on this.

If you as a company are relying on peoples "intelligence" you have a failed marketing department.

TheMailMan78We will have to agree to disagree on this.

I hear that, be it interesting and all, you two do have very different opinions, and its obvious you wont be swayed the other way. i don't want to see this get heated enough to start causing warnings and citations for posts etc, not saying i expect it of either of you, but i don't want this to get out of hand, i mean its something none of US can control anyway, so its all arbitrary speculation.

newtekie1Lots, but not the majority. And I call the ones that do idiots.

Agreed

And the competitions branding isn't any better in terms of telling you what performs better than what, assuming you go by name alone that is.:laugh:

The best example being RV740 - HD4750. Which will be faster than HD4830. Furthermore we can say it's confusing for the enthusiasts too, because it's the RV740 XT which will be called HD4750 instead of taking the usual last number that XT's always have used, 70: i.e HD4770. I suppose that the Pro variant will wear the HD4730 name, but why would they change the typical naming is out of my comprehension.

EDIT: It might be that they have left the HD4770 name for a possible future card with the chip running at 750-800 Mhz, but that again would be confusing, as you would have a HD4770 being faster than the HD4850 in most scenarios, except (or not) on shader heavy ones.

TheMailMan78No ATI went through the same thing a while back but they have been consistent with the branding since. 2000 to 3000 to 4000 series with 50s and 70s to mark the mid & high tier. I'm not trashing Nvidias product. I'm trashing its branding. We will have to agree to disagree on this.

^^

TheMailMan78No thats the marketing departments job.

No, it is not the marketting department's job to inform the consumer. It is the marketting department's job to get the consumer to buy the product. If it was the marketting department's job to hold the consumers hand, we would see 8400GS's and HD4350's in boxes the hype how great they are at playing games, with phrases like "experience all the latest games in stunning HD"...

TheMailMan78No ATI went through the same thing a while back but they have been consistent with the branding since. 2000 to 3000 to 4000 series with 50s and 70s to mark the mid & high tier. I'm not trashing Nvidias product. I'm trashing its branding. We will have to agree to disagree on this.

If you as a company are relying on peoples "intelligence" you have a failed marketing department.

So your big complain is it is confusing for the consumer for nVidia to brand their cards the way they do, because consumers assume big number means better card. But it is ok for ATi's products to be just as confusing? You think the customer is dumb enough to blindly buy cards based on name alone, but smart enough to know that there are different series and the 30 50 and 70 makes a large difference? Are you being serious? You think they can figure out that the first number is the series, the second is what range the card falls in in that series, and the third is where the card falles in that range, but they can't figure out that the GTX280 is better than a 9800GTX?:laugh:

I can play the devil's advocate if you wish. We can assume that consumers are completely dumb, just assume bigger number means better performance. Lets look at the ATi side, their naming scheme doesn't help the consumer any either. How is the consumer supposed to know the HD3870 is better than the HD4550. 4550 is bigger than 3870, right? So by your logic, they would all believe that the HD4550 is the better card. How is ATi's naming scheme any better?

newtekie1No, it is not the marketting department's job to inform the consumer.

Are you serious?

newtekie1So your big complain is it is confusing for the consumer for nVidia to brand their cards the way they do, because consumers assume big number means better card. But it is ok for ATi's products to be just as confusing? You think the customer is dumb enough to blindly buy cards based on name alone, but smart enough to know that there are different series and the 30 50 and 70 makes a large difference? Are you being serious? You think they can figure out that the first number is the series, the second is what range the card falls in in that series, and the third is where the card falles in that range, but they can't figure out that the GTX280 is better than a 9800GTX?:laugh:

Ok turn the fanboyism down a little. Again I'm not attacking Nvidias product. I'm not even defending ATIs marketing. But yeah I think when "Joe Blow" standing in a GPU isle at Best Buy sees a GTX280 he might think its slower than a 9800GTX. Why do you think they named the second Xbox "360" and not the Xbox "2"? Because Sony went with the number 3 on the PS3. So MS called the second Xbox "360" to curb this. Higher number=better for the average consumer.

8800gts 512

My 8800GTS 512 when it came out in december 2007
is still doing a FANTASTIC job since its an overcklock version...
so now its Almost march 2009 and what has happened all this time ..?
oh yes there was
9800GTX
9800GTX+
and now they put the same ingridients in a card called GTS250
and even in IDENTICAL PCB and DESIGN of my 8800GTS 512
this is unbelievable ! G92 4EVER !

They are trying to re brand their cards in order to create a new standard in terms of names not in order to confuse us or searching for different ways to sell the same cards... i think...