So, we can put already proven science to the test? I for one have other things to do instead of that, like nothing. :)

cadavecaHonestly? It's simply not worth the effort to me.

Like, I get hardware for free, yet still buy my favorite items because I want a warranty. I'm not the one disillusioned by hype. Everyone can really think what they want, but it's really not even worth my time to do reviews if people are so easily influenced by BS. Like why bother? Everyone will lthink whatever suits them, and they have every right to.. so who am I to try to correct anyone?

It would be an interesting project, that, unfortunately, only a reviewer or someone with a lot of disposable income would be able to tackle due to the difficulty. I was thinking more about proving yourself right (or not) rather than changing the minds of others. You are of the opinion that AMD needs solder, while Intel does not after all.

FasolaYou are of the opinion that AMD needs solder, while Intel does not after all.

Exactly. And since I am a reviewer, I do have extra CPUs to play with, too, but, man... why go to those lengths to show what's already obvious? I am pretty much the only review that measures CPU-only power consumption. So I see clearly what's going on with these CPUs, and the power they use, and how that affects the temperatures they run at, and I do feel that using full system power to try to see these sorts of things isn't the correct approach, nevermind it only takes spending $100 for a good clamp-on meter for the EPS connector, and that expense is a write-off for someone that does reviews... completely blows me away when people review CPUs and use full system power like it's actually relevant.


But maybe I'm just a overconfident snob. Anything is possible. :P

cadavecaExactly. And since I am a reviewer, I do have extra CPUs to play with, too, but, man... why go to those lengths to show what's already obvious?

Unfortunately, to a lot of people, it is not that obvious, obviously. For me, it would be something fun to read that might actually spark an actual debate rather than this back and forth we have going on. At any rate, I understand why one wouldn't commit to a difficult pet project as this.

Because as he said, its obvious. We all know solder is better, it has been tested and proven. Why would anyone waste the time to prove something that is already known?

Vayra86The only reason we do this, is because you simply CANT delid a Ryzen to see what headroom you can create on that chip in the first place. Think on that for abit.

Actaully, you can. It's even been done. The reason it's not common is it a.) offers no thermal benefit and b.) is hard as heck to do and dangerous.

cadavecaSadly though, you'll find many of those cars that are priced that high, do have many such "inferior" parts. Especially in the interior. Once again car analogy fails to meet the needs for the PC market.

BTW, you might not be able to buy pilot sport cup 2 tires at kmart, but those that have money... got it by not spending it on silly things like that in the first place. Most people that buy those cars don't buy them to drive them these days; they are purely for investment. In other words, you buy them to sell them later, at a higher price. You can't do that with PCs... only on launches when supply is limited... but then it gets unlimited. Super and Hyper cars never get "unlimited" in numbers, which is why such analogies fail.

Okay, car guy to car guy, what parts do you think are inferior? Interior materials are subjective in terms of what is inferior and what isn't. A super/hypercar is going to need a no frills interior for the most part, with a lot of kevlar and carbon fiber, perhaps some aircraft grade aluminum. Certainly won't be as luxurious either. As far as investment goes, cars are generally a bad investment all together, even a new super car will not hold its value. Older cars(antiques) will do a lot better on return after owning them another 20 or so years. But anyhow...

Valantar80C for a CPU under load is no problem whatsoever. 90-95, we'd be talking, but generally CPUs are perfectly happy at temps like that. We've become spoiled by the efficient, small CPUs of late. A decade ago, keeping an OC'd CPU below 90 degrees was impressive. Keeping a 300+W monster at 80 still is.

80c doesn't leave much headroom though. If your processor is running at 80c stock clocks you can pretty much forget about any overclocking.

SIGSEGVMeh, don't wanna burn hundreds of dollar just for 'TIM' and do your own risk because you're ENTHUSIAST BS and you should delid words ffs !

What in the world are you trying to say? Can someone translate? Lol...

9700 ProI can't even remember how many Intel has shown us the middle finger this year.. let's see..

1. Those stupid 7600K/7700K remakes on LGA2066
2. No solder on those LCC 2066 SKL-X processors
3. "microtransactions" on X299
4. Coffee Lakes not compatible with 100/200 series motherboards
5. SKL-X HCC's also not soldered

Five "fuck you consumers" so far in 2017, I'm impressed and not in a good way.

1. Everyone does 'remakes'
2. Yeah, kind of lame
3. Don't pay anything? Just like games, there's nobody holding a gun for your head making you purchase anything.
4. OH NO MY CPU isn't compatible with X,Y or Z motherboard!! Welcome to computers buddy.
5. Solder it yourself :D

EarthDogComplains about intel shoving it up our rears, then bends over? How can you have that much conviction on the subject and still buy one?

ssdproI read this 3 page comment and have concluded this user is really annoying. There is no reason to refer to everyone that buys product "A" as an idiot. Do you have proof Intel applies "Toothpaste"? After application of this "toothpaste" did the factory "call it a day"? And what is "coz it's ze"? Is that some german reference? Do you have any data supporting purchase of a HEDT platform was based on solder as a primary reason for purchase? That all just sounds like kid stuff.

Well, it's either toothpaste or peanut butter. Most claim it was the actual sealant that is the problem but some claims out there that the paste looks really bad under those lids. I may see for myself on Sunday, depends on how my automotive project goes Saturday if I have time to switch from Mr. Mechanic to computer geek.

RejZoRAnd you just sound like someone who has nothing of value to say other than dragging someone elses comment around. Because you had nothing of value to say in the first place. Also, context and synonyms are entirely foreign concepts to you...

Dude, I used to enjoy reading your posts, I used to thank most of them. Then a lot of things started happening with Vega and you just seemed to have changed and gone off the deep end. Not sure why but that's how it seems.

9700 ProBecause I don't want to change platform? And like I said, I'm going to delid this right when I get a tool for rent from someone, so the TIM on this isn't a problem.

I understand that my 250eur CPU has crappy TIM under the IHS, but a 2000eur enthusiast HEDT CPU?

If you don't want to change platform then don't, simple as that, it has always been as simple as that. There's no force making you change from one processor or board to another.

efikkanThis whole "TIM" issue is just nonsense. Of all the "issues" with X299, this would have to be a total non-issue. How many are going to do overlocking at this extreme level?
This is even more ridiculous than people boycotting X299 because of "missing" PCIe lanes they don't even need.


So, is this really a problem for you? These things still clocks way beyond anything from AMD.

It's not nonsense. It can be the difference between running cool or hot, overclocking 500mhz instead of 200mhz, I don't know. It's not nonsense though. As I'm sure you know, lots of people have gotten huge increases in performance just by delidding and applying new paste and resealing their CPU.

Vya DomusNot only it can be a better solution , it is a better solution. Always will be. Even if you get no extra OC headroom it is still an advantage to have a chip that can be cooled more efficiently. That's my whole point , I am not talking toward a specific product even though I used some as examples.

Has anyone considered the fact with a soldered heat spreader, you're stuck with what you get; but with TIM, you always have the option to delid and replace factory TIM with liquid metal, which works as well as solder, also allows you to thin out the silicon glue, getting the heat spreader closer to the die, which is where you get the most advantage. The only caveat is that you might have to redo the liquid metal every 3 or 4 years if it degrades (from extreme OCs). The soldered ones can also degrade over time, and sometimes affect flatness of the heat spreader, but you can't fix them.

Th3pwn3rOkay, car guy to car guy, what parts do you think are inferior? Interior materials are subjective in terms of what is inferior and what isn't.

Switches, lighting fixtures, display screens (not on dash), the electronics in general, I guess. Many more affordable cars do it better. I did put "inferior" in quotes for a reason though... they are adequate, like the TIM under Intel's current CPUs.

Like, I see the power drawn though these chips and it amazes me how much they have been able to handle at times with normal cooling... Like, I really do feel Intel is doing a great job. I think AMD is doing a great job too, though. I don't expect AMD to match Intel in anything, even performance, though, so my perspective on much of this isn't going to be like what most think. At the same time, I do maybe have more info direct from the people that make these products, so maybe that's why I feel differently? I'm not sure. Like, I can look at a review on another site, see the stuff that some companies send asking we cover, and it makes me laugh. I toss those documents in the trash, and do my own thing. Just like I'm tossing in the trash any ideas that there are "issues" with the X299 platform.

Th3pwn3r1. Everyone does 'remakes'
2. Yeah, kind of lame
3. Don't pay anything? Just like games, there's nobody holding a gun for your head making you purchase anything.
4. OH NO MY CPU isn't compatible with X,Y or Z motherboard!! Welcome to computers buddy.
5. Solder it yourself :D


If you don't want to change platform then don't, simple as that, it has always been as simple as that. There's no force making you change from one processor or board to another.

Yeah but those first Coffee Lake chipsets are just rebrands since they have the same functionality, so that's another "fuck you" from Intel, since they've could have kept the compatibility.

Also the naming of the socket is stupid. Before it hasn't been a problem to snip out few pins or add them, so why it just couldn't be LGA1152 for example.

Intel has never really carried more than two generations of chipsets. Nothing new. Also, most people arent upgrading from a generation or two of cpus behind. You sont expect 3 generations of cpus to work on the same board, do you? By that time, like 5 years, you lose out on other things... like m.2 pcie 4x and otjer chipset improvements.

Also, there are drop in upgrades for each set of chipsets. I mean, negligible/incremental upgrades, sure, but still.

Its probably to save money. It will be keyed, and there are notes on packaging as far as what chipset its compatible with. It could be easier, sure. I see a lot of crying over spilled milk to be honest. It just never was and never will be that kind of world. The only reason amd never did it was because its likely cheaper for them than seveloping incremental upgrades. Remember amd was lacking pcie 3.0 outside of a board or two or something until zen. Fast m.2... not without a pcie add on card. There are reasons for incremental updates besides greed. ;)

HoodHas anyone considered the fact with a soldered heat spreader, you're stuck with what you get; but with TIM, you always have the option to delid and replace factory TIM with liquid metal, which works as well as solder, also allows you to thin out the silicon glue, getting the heat spreader closer to the die, which is where you get the most advantage. The only caveat is that you might have to redo the liquid metal every 3 or 4 years if it degrades (from extreme OCs). The soldered ones can also degrade over time, and sometimes affect flatness of the heat spreader, but you can't fix them.

Good point, however by the time that solder would wear out you're probably a few generations into new builds anyways.

cadavecaSwitches, lighting fixtures, display screens (not on dash), the electronics in general, I guess. Many more affordable cars do it better. I did put "inferior" in quotes for a reason though... they are adequate, like the TIM under Intel's current CPUs.

Like, I see the power drawn though these chips and it amazes me how much they have been able to handle at times with normal cooling... Like, I really do feel Intel is doing a great job. I think AMD is doing a great job too, though. I don't expect AMD to match Intel in anything, even performance, though, so my perspective on much of this isn't going to be like what most think. At the same time, I do maybe have more info direct from the people that make these products, so maybe that's why I feel differently? I'm not sure. Like, I can look at a review on another site, see the stuff that some companies send asking we cover, and it makes me laugh. I toss those documents in the trash, and do my own thing. Just like I'm tossing in the trash any ideas that there are "issues" with the X299 platform.

Well, in some things I prefer the minimum , my 1989 Honda CRX has no interior at all other than dash and gauges, should be making over 600 horsepower at the wheels too, Dyno tuning tomorrow or Friday, yay. On the other hand I like nice car audio systems and navigation too.

9700 ProYeah but those first Coffee Lake chipsets are just rebrands since they have the same functionality, so that's another "fuck you" from Intel, since they've could have kept the compatibility.

Also the naming of the socket is stupid. Before it hasn't been a problem to snip out few pins or add them, so why it just couldn't be LGA1152 for example.

I understand where you're coming from but it's nothing new, they have been pushing new platforms on us for a long time. Got the top of the line board and processor? New platform released . Feelsbadman.jpg

Th3pwn3rGot the top of the line board and processor? New platform released . Feelsbadman.jpg

Depends on how you look at it. Your way is conditioned by a lifetime of admen playing on your love of the latest/fastest/coolest stuff (a fate we all suffer from to some degree). My thinking is to wait for a platform to mature, to get the most reliable/stable hardware, often right before the new platform debuts, so as to get more choice of proven boards and lowest prices. The new stuff is always coming, so the feeling that you have the best is always fleeting. It's nice when it happens, but constantly chasing it is a mistake, or a hobby for bored rich kids with trust funds. Take the long view and you'll enjoy your stuff more. Stop feeling bad about something you knew would happen before you even bought it.

@Th3pwn3r
Well, then enjoy garbage overpriced products because no one is apparently allowed to be critical when appropriate. Usage of TIM on a freaking 1000€ CPU is just an absolutely unforgivable thing worthy of EVERY criticism. The situation with RX Vega was not even nearly this bad or worthy of criticism. All I was saying the entire time is, LETS WAIT FOR THE REVIEWS, don't piss on it in advance without any data. When cards were placed on the desk and revealed with reviews, Vega is what it is. You either take it for the price it has or you don't. There is no secret catch there, because for what it is, it is done properly. Unlike when you buy a freaking 1000€ CPU and later realize they use cheap goo instead of proper solder on IHS. That's the reason why I'm not pissing all over Vega and everyone sees it as me being a massive AMD fanboy. Maybe I haven't changed, but the products have. Intel has become a bunch of lazy motherf**kers because they were resting on laurels of past success for too long. And they are trying to continue doing that by increasing THEIR margins on YOUR expense. AMD forced them to lower their prices and instead of doing it properly, they'll skimp on freaking IHS materials. ON YOUR BLOODY EXPENSE. But hey, if you don't see that, go on and buy such Intel CPU. All you're telling them with this is "GO AHEAD GREEDY LAZY INTEL, I DON'T MIND IT". AMD screwed up with Bulldozer, but for what it was, they were still doing it properly. They weren't screwing around cutting bits from it to increase margins. That's why I didn't have problem with it either back then. Just like with RX Vega. You either take it or you don't. There was no secret catch there either. It was what it was. Where 1000€ CPU with some goo where you'd expect top notch components just "isn't what it is". I've criticized it on lower end products as well, but those are cheap(er) for a reason and on a CPU with 2 cores, it quite frankly doesn't even matter. But when you have 8 cores with 16 threads pumping out tons of heat, you want the very best. And goo just isn't. What I noticed is that people apparently entirely forgot how to read and understand. Relevancy of criticism and context is something no one seems to understand anymore. It's the whole paragraph above this line and all my criticisms in the last several weeks or few months...

But if this is the reason you don't want to read my posts anymore, then so be it. It'll be your loss, not mine, quite frankly.

I think the point @cadaveca is making but, y'all seem to have missed it is that AMD uses solder because it HAS TO. Intel doesn't because it's chips DON'T HAVE TO. Take away from that what you will but, his second point is with todays modern CPUs overclocking is redundant and unnecessary. Intel to spend extra on solder so less that 1% of its market wont bitch on a forum is bad business sense. Almost as bad as lying to reviewers about their real MSRP.......(looking at you AMD). Maybe AMD engineers can find a second job trolling tech sites trying to justify their poor job performance.

Th3pwn3rI understand where you're coming from but it's nothing new, they have been pushing new platforms on us for a long time. Got the top of the line board and processor? New platform released . Feelsbadman.jpg

Well, I installed a 7600K for my Z170 board yesterday so there's no reason for me to upgrade for a couple of years. :toast:

9700 ProWell, I installed a 7600K for my Z170 board yesterday so there's no reason for me to upgrade for a couple of years. :toast:

Weird... another intel chipset that works with 2 generations... :)

EarthDogWeird... another intel chipset that works with 2 generations... :)

Pfft Im still rocking a 2600k which which my mobo was good all the way up to the intel 3770k. Two generations?! Who would figure?

HoodIt's nice when it happens, but constantly chasing it is a mistake, or a hobby for bored rich kids with trust funds.

That's why when I build a system I try to make it last a long time. I've been on my current system for close to five years and when I did build it I spent about $800 at the time. $800 over five years is $160 a year which isn't bad at all when it comes to spreading the cost out. I plan on spending about double that this time around because it'll be a complete system rebuild as versus just swapping out parts. New case, new power supply, new SSD, new monitor, etc. Yeah, it's going to cost a bit more this time but it'll be worth it in the end.

HoodYour way is conditioned by a lifetime of admen playing on your love of the latest/fastest/coolest stuff (a fate we all suffer from to some degree).

If you spread it out over four or five years it won't feel quite so bad and the generational improvements will actually be worth it.

TheMailMan78todays modern CPUs overclocking is redundant and unnecessary.

I think what people don't take into account is that years ago we didn't need such extremely high clock speeds so Intel never sold their chips running at those high clock speeds. The so-called "huge" overclocking headroom that people oh so love to talk about here on this site existed quite simply because Intel was actually selling their chips at a far slower speed than they needed to because well... we didn't need those speeds back then. The huge overclocking headroom of the chips of yesteryear were because those chips actually could run at those speeds, they were just artificially ran at slower speeds. Fast forward to today and we need those high clock speeds so now Intel chips are being sold already clocked at a point where they're already running damn near the razor's edge. Yes, we have less overclocking headroom (this is true) but that's only because they're already running near the edge at stock.

EarthDogWeird... another intel chipset that works with 2 generations... :)

But as said, Z370 has the "Kaby Lake" functions, and the "real new" chipset arrives later. So there's not a good reason why Coffee wouldn't work on 100/200 chipsets.

And? Its a money maker...its what they do. Two gens on 2 chipsets, moving along to the next.

Nothing new.

9700 ProBut as said, Z370 has the "Kaby Lake" functions, and the "real new" chipset arrives later. So there's not a good reason why Coffee wouldn't work on 100/200 chipsets.

Actually, there IS a good reason... supplying power to 6 cores instead of 4 requires a different electrical pinout for the socket. It's not that current chipset is incompatible... it's the socket itself that is. You can't make circuits magically re-form themselves; at least, not yet.

9700 ProWell, I installed a 7600K for my Z170 board yesterday so there's no reason for me to upgrade for a couple of years. :toast:

Personally I think most of us should be able to afford a new build every year easily. That being said I just keep my machines together and just get all new stuff.

cadavecaActually, there IS a good reason... supplying power to 6 cores instead of 4 requires a different electrical pinout for the socket. It's not that current chipset is incompatible... it's the socket itself that is. You can't make circuits magically re-form themselves; at least, not yet.

Nice to see logic and a genuinely clear reason for it. It really is easy to bash Intel with their constant socket/chipset changes but your answer reasonably justifies it.

cadavecaNot 500 MHz. 200 MHz, even, is pushing it. Yeah, some chips do well, but some do not, too.

Like listen; I did offer to get a de-lidder from der8uaer, pop the top off of ALL my CPUs, and happily verify his results. Unfortunately, I didn't get one, and they aren't really for sale (always sold out, or perhaps, not even being made in the first place). So whatever...


Like you also have to consider this: Here is a guy that sells a product to delid CPUs, telling you that you are being ripped off, and that you should delid. Oh and hey, buy HIS delidder to do it, too. :wtf:

for sure, the gains vary quite a lot from chip to chip down to how big the gap is and how much tim is filling it. but at the same time oc headroom also varies and as such the voltage needed for one chip to gain 200mhz can see another gain 500. the ic lotto is still a thing but with these modern chips from intel there are more variables to take into effect now.

as for de8uaer, for sure part of his delid videos must be to promote his product, but not the amd one, right?

you say that like you need a tool to do it, like it's the only way. i have done a couple with just a vice and piece of 2 by 4...i know plenty that have just used a craft knife.

to go back to the tim and car guy stuffs, lsd vs live axle, disk brakes vs drums. one is adequate while the other is optimal. would you pay top dollar for a car with adequate brakes, or adequate drive train?

no it is expected to have optimal acceleration and breaking. the heat transfer from a HEDT cpu is much the same in my eyes. the mainstream platform i can understand. if they were to clock much higher it would for sure eat into their higher platform, but these are the top desktop platform.

Vayra86Shorter than what? I'm rocking an Ivy Bridge with shitty TIM and still see little urge to go bigger - urge as in, its really hard to justify the upgrade given the cost and performance I gain.

By comparison, if you ran a soldered FX at 5 Ghz, you'd have moved to an Intel alternative two years ago at least.

Again, could-woulda-shoulda, versus reality - this is always the case with any AMD versus Intel discussion: dreams of a better future versus the actual market. Note that the dreamers are not successful here.

the upgrade cycle would be shorter if they if they're only able to reach smaller overclocks.

why do you feel the need to bring amd into a discussion about intel?

could-woulda-shoulda is what you seem to like talking about, what are you trying to achieve?

it is almost as if you think attacking something else will move the topic away from the fact intel are cheaping out by making their top of the line desktop with sub optimal heat transfer.