Friday, July 6th 2018
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Chinese DRAM Companies Stealing DRAM IP From Samsung and SK Hynix
It's not just Micron, but also Korean DRAM giants Samsung and SK Hynix, that are the latest victims of large-scale industrial espionage by Chinese DRAM makers to steal vital DRAM intellectual property (IP), according to Korea Times. Today's DRAM makers build their products on IP acquired over decades, and that is time Chinese companies do not have, and aren't willing to license from established DRAM makers, either.
"Samsung Electronics and SK Hynix have become the target of industrial espionage by Chinese memory chip manufacturers. In semiconductors, patents are critical to the cost structure. The companies have to protect what they have spent decades building. The result is Chinese companies are attempting to infringe on Samsung and SK patents," said a Korean official involved in the investigation of IP theft."Without intellectual property, you can't become a meaningful player. You need brand-new technology and you have to have capability for large-scale production. Also, you should be qualified for product specifications and designs and to meet demanding customer application requests. All of these can be done with intellectual property that has been built over the course of decades. Chinese companies aren't ready for this," said a Samsung engineer. "Chinese companies are finding the development of DRAM and flash-memory manufacturing processes is more difficult to than they thought."
Both Korean companies are closely following the ongoing legal battle between Micron Technology and Fujian Jin Hua IC, in Chinese courts; where the American company is faring badly in counter-lawsuits. Fujian Jin Hua IC is alleged to have used Taiwanese semiconductor foundry UMC to steal Micron's IP, whereas a counter-suit by UMC seems to have won in Chinese courts, with Micron staring at a market-access denial by China, in the backdrop of one of the biggest trade-wars between China and the United States, ever.
Source:
Korea Times
"Samsung Electronics and SK Hynix have become the target of industrial espionage by Chinese memory chip manufacturers. In semiconductors, patents are critical to the cost structure. The companies have to protect what they have spent decades building. The result is Chinese companies are attempting to infringe on Samsung and SK patents," said a Korean official involved in the investigation of IP theft."Without intellectual property, you can't become a meaningful player. You need brand-new technology and you have to have capability for large-scale production. Also, you should be qualified for product specifications and designs and to meet demanding customer application requests. All of these can be done with intellectual property that has been built over the course of decades. Chinese companies aren't ready for this," said a Samsung engineer. "Chinese companies are finding the development of DRAM and flash-memory manufacturing processes is more difficult to than they thought."
Both Korean companies are closely following the ongoing legal battle between Micron Technology and Fujian Jin Hua IC, in Chinese courts; where the American company is faring badly in counter-lawsuits. Fujian Jin Hua IC is alleged to have used Taiwanese semiconductor foundry UMC to steal Micron's IP, whereas a counter-suit by UMC seems to have won in Chinese courts, with Micron staring at a market-access denial by China, in the backdrop of one of the biggest trade-wars between China and the United States, ever.
49 Comments on Chinese DRAM Companies Stealing DRAM IP From Samsung and SK Hynix
If the plants get shut down there it is China's own fault.
3d printingwas advanced enough then they'd just copy the whole factory! Wait I shouldn't be giving them any ludicrous ideas :shadedshu:China play their own rules on their own country, and was about time to do something about foreign companies leaving the profits out of China.
I'm not a fan of stealing ip but " Nature always finds a way".
Please consider that once a brand grows to a certain size and brand recognition prices will be going up inevitably. Not do to sheer market share, but due to the fact that they need to build up a certain underlying supply chain. Meaning brand stores, delivery roots, brand service center or licenced service partners for their products. These all need to be supplied, maintained and staffed, whom are need to payed all the while.
I'm not pro IP theft as I stated above, but to put it into analogy:
If you take away my lunch money, and then come to me to bitch about some other dude copying your exam, don't expect moral support...
So what ever you're saying is actually the complete opposite of things on the ground.
Samsung didn't have a clean start in the industry, and now everybody loves them. We in Argentina need cheaper prices on hardware, the dollar here went from 1USD=20ARS to 1USD=29USD, plus internal inflation and social unrest thanks to the intervention of the IMF. I couldn't care less about companies doing an oligopoly and then getting they toys stolen from (surprise, suprprise) China.
C'mon, speed up your race to the bottom to compete. It is the American Way ®
I honestly can't be all too bothered with all of this. We've seen it coming for decades and now that it gets serious we act surprised. Its the same hypocrisy as using them for cheap labor and then complaining about human rights and working conditions. Its payback time and we're receiving. Deal with it.
Surely the heading should read: Allegedly stealing DRAM IP?
Here's the problem. DRAM is cyclical. In the mid-2000's everyone made a ton of DRAM, expecting huge demand. That never materialized, ASP dropped, and everyone lost a ton of money. I remember when we made a $1 billion dollar profit, and I remember when we lost close to half a billion dollars. In either case, business as normal. There was never an attempt to decrease capacity. Our job was to move wafers, and we moved as many as we could.
Fabs are also stupid expensive to build these days, and take a while to actually build, then start up. Back in the day, a couple billion dollars was a reasonable amount of money for a fab. Today it's probably more. Profit drives the ability to expand. That's why over the years, the amount of companies actually making DRAM has sharply declined.
Furthermore, just because your factory is online, doesn’t mean you can expect profits day 1. You're not going to sell the first DRAM wafer that comes out the fab. I also remember hearing that some company took a capacity hit when they transitioned to 3D NAND because of extra tooling, production/yield ramps, etc.
That comes to patents. IP is important, and protects your investment, which then drives growth. If it took you $10 billion dollars to develop a product only for China to steal your patent, that might put them $5 billion dollars ahead (i came up with the numbers, but you get the point).
The current state of semiconductors is that everything is hard, and expensive - see last link.
“3nm will cost $4 billion to $5 billion in process development, and the fab cost for 40,000 wafers per month will be $15 billion to $20 billion,” IBS’ Jones said.
So, I get the frustration with DRAM/NAND pricing. I remember the days of $10 RAM. However, there’s a lot that goes into DRAM production, and by extension cost. From the articles i’ve been reading, it seems like many of these fabs are running at full capacity, and any increase requires expansion - which involves, time, money, and people. None of which happens overnight.
www.icinsights.com/news/bulletins/are-the-major-dram-suppliers-stunting-dram-demand/
www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/mannerisms/markets/dram-grew-76-2027-will-grow-30-2018says-dramexchange-2018-02/
semiengineering.com/big-trouble-at-3nm/
Now, if every patent needs to be upheld for two decades and what gets patented, that's an entirely different story.